The New Rules of Podcasting with Jay Nachlis, Coleman Insights

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  0:02  
Welcome to the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers from across North America get together to discuss podcasting.

Matt Cundill  0:12  
So I'm Matt candle and a very special edition of the show today because we have our very, very first guest, ever. Jay Nachlis, who joins us today on the show. Jay, welcome. And congratulations on being the first guest on the show.

Jay Nachlis  0:28  
I had no idea it would be your first guests. It is. It is incredibly touching. Thank you.

Matt Cundill  0:34  
So Jay comes to us from it from Coleman insights. And we referenced him a number of times in previous episodes, because at Podcast Movement, J, I guess you kind of got star billing in the whole thing, you get the big keynote, with Steve Goldstein from amplify media. And it's the new rules of podcasting, which is a very domineering, headline, and scary and caught everyone's attention, and I think was the biggest takeaway from Podcast Movement. And so Jack and I were there, we reported back and we felt it was really, really important. And it's kind of been the lynch point, for the launching point for podcasters, making a pivot, because you came loaded with a lot of data. So just to get us started, tell me a little bit about what you do at Coleman insights. And then tell us a little bit about why you did this study.

Jay Nachlis  1:31  
So my my title is vice president and consultant. And so I do projects for all kinds of audio brands. Right? So the company has been around for over 40 years. But we work in the radio industry, and then kind of made that natural pivot into podcasting and streaming a few years ago, and I do most of the podcasting work for the company. And so that's that's kind of my my scope at that at Coleman. As far as why we did this. We, we were intentional about what kind of study can we put on at Podcast Movement that will be really actionable for the industry. And we were thinking about, you know, what, what are people talking about? What do they need? What kind of guidance can we provide? And we kept coming back to video and this question that that kept coming up, as far as, how important is it in this space? How important can it be for me? Does every podcast need it? And you know, what are the steps that I should take? If so, you know, if if it makes sense. And we also, once we really thought about this question that we put very early on in the questionnaire, this How would you define a podcast was a question that we thought was really integral to this whole thing? Because it was a question that that, to this point really hadn't been asked in most research. And we thought was, was something that we had to get answered before we even took the further step into asking more questions about video.

Matt Cundill  3:02  
So we're gonna go around the table, we'll have some questions for you about the study. We've all been over the slides and your presentation, I thought the first thing that was really, really smart. And I think it's a good way to start it off, because you did have to talk to people about the video component of their podcast, viewing and listening, but you made a very conscious decision not to use the word, what podcast Did you listen to, you use the word consume, in order to get people to really open up to say, hey, this could involve YouTube as well.

Jay Nachlis  3:36  
Every research study that we saw was using the word listen. And we were very, very intentional about it. Because we wanted to eliminate any sort of bias towards that if you're gonna ask questions about watching, then you can't just come in and say, Listen, and so and we didn't even want to say all that we talked about it. You know, in the beginning, we didn't want to say watch or listen, I just wanted to use something that was generic that encompassed all of it, recognize it by the fit, you should have seen the conversation that we had debates about this back and forth, we know that the word consume and consumption is not the greatest word in the world. And so if you were a fly on the wall, you'd see us going the soros.com. And what's a different way to say consume, and ultimately, we came back. Right? But ultimately, we came back to it. It's like, Yeah, but it says what it is people understand what it is. And I think it served the purpose for that. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  4:33  
Just before, just before I just go to Jag, I just get you just to do the run through because I know every researcher loves to do this. And that's tell everybody about the sample composition.

Jay Nachlis  4:43  
So as you just pointed out, right, they had to consume of podcasts in the past month, so we didn't say listen there or listen and watch. We said did you consume a podcast? This was a big sample size. This is very much on the larger size of any study that we do. So 1000 people across the US. And we wanted to make sure that it was really broad, from an age standpoint. So as young as 15, as old as 64. And then we put those quotas in place for age, gender and ethnicity and region based on the population.

Jon Gay  5:15  
Jag. So I wanted to come back to something you said a moment ago, Jay, and that is this whole YouTube thing. I feel like in real inside podcast circles or EBT, maybe even some of the OGS in podcasting, they will say, well, it's not a podcast, if it's not listened to, but with an RSS feed and has to meet all these parameters, something that I think you and Steve did a really good job on in your presentation is saying, yeah, maybe some people on the tech side on the inside baseball side, feel that way. But when we are talking to, I don't say listeners, I'll say consumers, when we're talking about consumers who consume podcasts, they don't care if it's an audio RSS feed, they care if it's content, so you can kind of you know, be you know, Abe Simpson, old man yelling a cloud all you want on this. But if you want to talk, if you want to fish where the fish are, and follow your audience for the way they are consuming media, it's a podcast, even if it's on YouTube, that's how most consumers are looking at it. So we really need to get out of as an industry get away from this hole. Oh, it has to meet these certain technical criteria. If people are calling it a podcast, just embrace it.

Jay Nachlis  6:23  
You know, if I were to ask consumers, if they knew what an RSS feed. Okay, how many do you think would actually no, I'm guessing it's probably pretty miniscule. And, and the point is that this type of research is really lacking in the space. And that was another thing that we thought was really important there is there's this weird dichotomy in there podcasting has this great wealth of analytics, like it's the type of of analytics depth that that the radio industry would kill for sure. And it's right, it's done a really good job in that, but what what it's lacking is brand research and consumer perceptions. And so I know we're kind of jumping ahead. But this was another another bone of contention from some of the OGs. And this research was, oh, YouTube, is the number one podcasting app. No, it's not. It's like, Well, I'm not talking about the number of people. We're not talking about analytics, we're talking about perception. We're talking about what people say, is the app that they use the most. And that's an important distinction. Consumer perceptions and understanding how people perceive the space is crucial for us when we're developing strategy.

Johnny Podcasts  7:36  
Johnny, yeah, I was looking at the slides. And a couple of things that I saw were really interesting. And the one that really jumped out to me was how are you discovering new podcasts. And while YouTube might, you know, have taken over as the leader for, like you said, from a consumer standpoint, as a podcast consumption platform, 54% of people are still discovering new podcasts from friends and family, which leads back to this overall problem that every platform now including YouTube has, is discoverability. And I know there's a slide further on down that says, a good chunk of people find that YouTube is a great platform for finding new podcasts. However, it's still tried and true. From the research that you did. Maybe this was purposeful, maybe it wasn't, is that word of mouth is still the best way that people find new podcasts, whether it's on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple, I don't know if you had if you guys thought about that at all, from your findings.

Jay Nachlis  8:29  
Yeah, I think that and you're right, that's consistent. Almost every research study, you see will have friends and family towards the top, although I think you'll start to see the the, at some point video is going to overtake that. But But that being said, No, we didn't get granular on it. The power of, of social media and how that relates to friends and family. You know, it's not it's not like just somebody calling up their friend and go, Hey, you should check out this podcast. They're, you know, they're there's a conduit, and they're doing it in so many different ways through social media is a big way they're doing it. So. Yeah, I think it's still very important though.

Johnny Podcasts  9:11  
Matt, can I add a follow up on to that? Yeah, sure. So if you're gonna if you were to do this research over again, if you're gonna do it again in the future, when you dig down further into how you're discovering new shows, do you think that it would be beneficial to add specifically into the YouTube aspect? Maybe it's like if you answered yes to I use YouTube to find new podcasts. Another question within that would be are you finding them in the discover page on the sidebar when you're actually watching an episode? Or are you using the shorts aspect because shorts are growing like crazy on podcasts are growing like crazy in terms of how people are marketing their podcasts? I think it would be really interesting to see if people are using shorts to actually go to the channel to consume a podcast to then become an a new subscriber or a new fan of a show.

Jay Nachlis  9:58  
Yeah, And, you know, although we did ask about shorts and found out that it is an important discoverability tool for podcasts, you're right, like there, there are a lot of parts of this. This was if it was kind of meant to be this macro look at the space, a very top line type of study. And when you go through it, those are ultimately an inevitable, inevitably, some of the natural follow up questions we get well, did you ask this about, you know, YouTube? And did you ask this about shorts? And the answer is yes, I would love to, I think here, we wanted to get a big top line picture. But then there's space now to kind of do a second wave to go deeper into those, you know, those habits.

David Yas  10:43  
May I jump in, Matt? Oh, yeah. Jay, so picking up on what Johnny was talking about? The, it's a heck of a lot easier to produce a really great short than it is an entire, you know, 45 to 660 minute video. So I get what you're saying. And I know that you can't ask everything in the survey. But when, for the bulk of your survey and the things you were studying, I presume, when we talk about a podcast on YouTube, we are talking about the entire episode in some fashion. Right? Is that right? Okay. So that begs the larger question, which and pardon me if I'm opening Pandora's Pandora's box, or jumping ahead or something, but

Jon Gay  11:24  
he's the attorney?

David Yas  11:26  
No, this is just the sort of broader question is these these video podcasts? What exactly are they? I don't imagine you surveyed that, but I assume you have some sense of it. In other words, it can be anything ranging from the static image of a podcast logo and the audio to full blown and what people are asking us people that hire us to produce their podcast is, what do I need to do? And we say, well, whatever is gonna allow you to pay the most you can to us to create it. That's what but so that's that's the, I think you get the question, or are we moving towards full blown produced videos that even appear to be TV shows or something much less?

Jay Nachlis  12:12  
I'm going to answer the question in two parts. First is, is I think there's always going to be some subjectivity as to how consumers view a podcast, what they think that it is, and we're going to have to admit, we could ask the question a million different ways and try and get it that. But there's always going to be people that see, you know, a video as a podcast, it's not actually a podcast, and vice versa. And that's okay, that's gonna be the consumer perception. We're always having a little bit of confusion. But to your point, I don't think and I think Steve and I were pretty intentional about saying this. I don't first of all, think that necessarily every podcast needs to be in video form. I think that every podcast needs to be using it as a marketing tool. But I don't think they all necessarily need to be in video format. I think it's, it depends on the podcast, it depends on the subject. And there are ways to handle it looks, you know, smartlace, for example, is a show that doesn't even have the hosts on YouTube. You know, they use a little graphic that kind of moves around a little bit and you listen to the audio does very well. But but that's it. They're shorts. teasers are phenomenal. But the actual, you know, you would think that you would see the hosts on on YouTube, but you don't. And so they're No, you don't necessarily have to put together this, you know, hugely produced production to be on YouTube. I don't think that's the case. And I think that it's different for every podcast.

Jon Gay  13:44  
I think one thing that's worth mentioning, I wanted to work this in at some point. So full disclosure, everybody on this call, except for Johnny has met Jay in person at a Podcast Movement at some point. So when we were talking about inviting J on the podcast on the private call, the five of us have, Johnny said, Okay, well, who's who's J? How do you spell his name? Johnny, what happened when you Googled J necklace? Oh,

Johnny Podcasts  14:06  
oh, the first thing that popped up, or a third and fifth in the search rankings were the shows that you did with Matt, and the shows that you did with Jag. And they were the YouTube versions of those of those episodes. Was not Apple was not Spotify. It was the YouTube versions. And maybe that's maybe that's because Google owns YouTube. But I find that to be really interesting.

Jay Nachlis  14:29  
I think that's probably more than maybe. Yeah. And I think that's a great point, Johnny. I mean, I think that that's when you're thinking about your strategy, recognizing that Google owns YouTube and the fact that video tends to do very well on search results. And the fact that I mean, what, how this is gonna go for YouTube going forward. I mean, nobody knows Google doesn't know but I will tell you this that they are more intentional now in their strategy than they have ever been. You They they've made the decision that they're not going to go in on Google podcasts, or they're going to go all in on YouTube and YouTube music, and whether or not this kind of split strategy with YouTube music and YouTube is going to work. I don't really know, this whole thing, putting out at page manuals for creators for you. I don't think that's the best way to go either. But, I mean, maybe they're gonna figure it out. Maybe they don't. But if they do, they're in an amazing position to do well with it. That's for sure.

Jon Gay  15:29  
Quick follow up from my fellow Orange Man here. If they appreciate you wearing orange today, by the way, if if for our listeners who are creating podcasts, should they be submitting their RSS feed to YouTube? And YouTube music? One or the other? Or both?

Jay Nachlis  15:49  
But we don't know yet. I don't think that we know yet. I think that we're I think that that's something that's that's early on in the process to really determine the best strategy there. You know, what are your thoughts so far on that?

Jon Gay  16:02  
I so far, and now that YouTube has invited you to submit by RSS feed on the last week or so, I've had my clients doing that, although Matt and I talked about this offline, I had one client that she did not have the option in her YouTube studio to submit add a podcast by RSS feed, she said, create a new podcast or turn a YouTube playlist into a podcast, she didn't have the RSS feed option. So I'm checking back daily waiting for her to get it. So hopefully we can get her podcast up on YouTube. Right?

Matt Cundill  16:30  
Yeah, and shout out to Sarah Burke, by the way, women in media podcast who is in that camp as well. And I think we just figured that Google is just going to slowly unroll this to whatever they feel like going forward, no matter what country

Jon Gay  16:44  
j if you have any connections with Google and YouTube, you know, let us let us know if you have the hookup or anything. Catherine.

Catherine O'Brien  16:51  
J, do you have any insight about we were talking about the relationship of shorts? And then going to the longer video? Do you have any insights about the podcast Audience Member leaving YouTube and pursuing the podcast elsewhere? Because it just seems to me that this is like a YouTube feeding YouTube situation where the YouTube shorts which YouTube has put just a tremendous amount of focus on there, in my opinion, or most people's opinion, they're trying to compete with tick tock, that's what the whole shorts thing is all about. And I can see people consumers going to a longer format video still within YouTube, I can't see them leaving YouTube. So this to me seems like a, it's just we're keeping you as long as we can in this particular app. Do you have any thoughts or insights about

Jay Nachlis  17:42  
that? I mean, we looked at all the different social media and the usage behaviors of the different platforms. So it's not just shorts, although we were surprised that the awareness levels and usage levels of shorts. They were they were higher than we expected. And you're right, I think I don't I don't have data necessarily, in that path of staying within the YouTube universe. But we did see that all the social media, whether you're talking about, you know, reels, you're talking about tick tock, and the other short form ones, I think that they all would show, you know, a pretty good level of discoverability for new podcasts. So you know, that's, that's a strategy that I would recommend is not just we talked a lot about shorts in this study. But I think using trailers and using those short term for short form video content on all the platforms is a smart decision.

Jon Gay  18:39  
Catherine to answer your question, from another perspective, one of the other seminars, I was at a Podcast Movement. Yeah, I don't I can't quantify it to your point. But yes, YouTube would love for you to stay in their ecosystem. But there is an awareness if you are a avid podcast listener. And if you're, if you're, you know, if your drug of choice is Spotify, or Apple, you may want to discover podcasts on YouTube, there are a significant number of folks who are searching and finding the podcast in their app of choice if there's outside YouTube.

Jay Nachlis  19:09  
Well, and I would also add that, you know, one of the findings in this study is that people aren't tethered to one podcast app, you know, three, three quarters are using more than one app to get their podcast. So building awareness is such an important, like, there's to me in this in this industry, there's nothing more important than building unaided awareness of podcasts period. And you guys have seen studies right where it's It's bananas when you asked national people nationally, yes, podcast consumers telling me we call it an unaided awareness question. We asked it in almost all strategic perceptual research we do in radio streaming and podcasts. And the question is always tell me as many podcasts as you can think of whether or not you can sue right? That's That's the question. This is a pure top of mind. Question. And what you always see in podcasting, and there's nothing like this anywhere else is Joe Rogan is at around 16%. And the next highest is like 3%. Wow, it's crazy. And so there is only one big national brand in podcasting. And that's Joe Rogan. And that's it. And, and by the way, 16% is even that high. So there's it's kind of two points is, is one is there's still room to grow there. But the bigger point is, until we start doing this real brand, brand and research and strategic research, you're not going to see those top of mind awareness levels go up and until you see unaided awareness go up, you're not going to see usage go up because in every study you do, unaided awareness is tied to listenership. Always

Catherine O'Brien  20:52  
I'm writing down the keywords unaided awareness, because that is going to be a topic. I'm going to look into more because it's very catchy. And it seems it sums it all up.

David Yas  21:05  
Jay, I have a question. What I'm I'm convinced. Johnny podcasts has finally pushed me over the edge. Find video all the way video love video. Love YouTube. We're there. We're already there. But for while some of us doubters, I think we're curious as to why you you need you would want a video streaming platform for your audio podcast, one of the reasons which I'm so genius, I just realized it because it's in your study is it's free. YouTube is free. Yeah. And Spotify is not. And I guess Apple podcasts is free, but but the phones are expensive anyway. So do you have any sense of like, how many people are actually, quote unquote, watching, but not watching? In other words, the image is secondary? And I'm sorry, if that's a close cousin to the first question I asked. But do we have? Do we have sentience? And will people go on to be happy? Like, you know, I listen to my podcast on YouTube, every once in a while, I'll glance and I'll see what's on my screen. But I'm just listening.

Jay Nachlis  22:12  
Yeah, I don't that's a number. I don't have off the top of my head. But yes, we did ask that. And you did? Yep. The way the question is asked is, it's like, are you watching? Are you actively watching video? Are you minimizing it on your device, while listening, and there's a substantial number of people that do it that way. So they're not just necessarily actively watching the video. And so that's, that's an important distinction to understand is that there's a lot of people that are just there on YouTube that like to even have it on the background. And so, you know, that's where audio still really comes into play. Because a lot of people are using even YouTube for audio. And I'm not talking about YouTube music and talking about YouTube, specifically. And the other thing I would say is we really saw that get take place in the way that people prefer to consume their favorite podcasts, right, as opposed to, you know, when they said they first started consuming their favorite podcast, the number one way was audio only, and now it's audio and video. So this is about just going fish where the fish are, if consumers are moving that way, and you're not there with them, you know, why not? Give them the option? If that's what we're doing? Jay,

Catherine O'Brien  23:27  
how much would you say that this is? This is in part just for the fact that YouTube is a behemoth that it is just so large that that's what is driving this whole thing.

Jay Nachlis  23:37  
I think that's the number one thing, you know, although I will tell you that something that really surprised us in this study was when we did this face off questions, and we asked people that were users of both YouTube and Spotify and the people that were users of YouTube and Apple, you know, which one they prefer, for certain things. And we thought for sure that YouTube was going to lose on this, or at least it was going to be somewhat even, because it was our perception that Spotify is a better platform than YouTube. But people that are using both really like YouTube. So I think, Catherine, your point is, is absolutely right. It's drawing in people because it's a behemoth, because it's free. But you know what, people find it easy to use, and they're finding it easy to discover podcasts, and a lot less clunky than I would have given them credit for but that's what they say.

Catherine O'Brien  24:34  
And before we go too far, right now somebody at Spotify in marketing is getting an email because they're like, David Yaz from the podcast. Superfriends thought that Spotify costs money but you can listen to a podcast for free on Spotify that I know but

David Yas  24:49  
the cool stuff is scribe for the cool stuff

Johnny Podcasts  24:54  
come on stuff. Okay, you don't have cool stuff. It's not podcast stuff.

David Yas  24:58  
No Okay, I can listen to podcasts for free. Okay, point taken.

Jon Gay  25:03  
Let me also say to Jay's point about YouTube really going all in on podcasting. One of the panels that podcasts we went in Denver was from the product lead Google's product lead for YouTube. His name escapes me at the moment, but seeded McLennan, thank you very much. Steve McClendon was his name. And, and one of the one of the things that he said was that YouTube and Google kind of were reacting to the demand for they were kind of watching all this podcasting stuff happen. And it wasn't until recently that there was the demand from their consumers to say, hey, like, we want to consume podcasts on YouTube. And that seems like they were kind of we're not, they just they were late to the party J. But then once they decided, okay, this is what our customers and our viewers and consumers want. Okay, now, we're gonna give it to them. And then of course, they rolled out the RSS feed way to add it a couple weeks ago.

Jay Nachlis  25:55  
Right. Now that's exactly it. That's exactly right.

Matt Cundill  25:59  
So I have an alarming slide. And it's your slide J. Oh, good. But it's the one nation. It's the one that really sort of, you know, perks up here. And that's alarming. Who's got a fire alarm?

David Yas  26:14  
That was me. You said, alarm? I'm married.

Matt Cundill  26:17  
I thought we all had to evacuate the podcast.

Jon Gay  26:20  
No, that'd be Podcast Movement. That'd be a failure alarm.

Jay Nachlis  26:22  
brings me back to Denver. I'm having

Matt Cundill  26:24  
Denver and Florida

Jon Gay  26:27  
in Orlando

Matt Cundill  26:28  
didn't too. Didn't. A couple people here meet for the first time in the fire alarm Jag.

Jon Gay  26:32  
It was Johnny, me. Yeah. All right. During the Orlando fire alarm, let's say thanks. Some fire alarm. We're all together now.

Matt Cundill  26:38  
So Jay, this is one that scares people. And it's like, are all your favorite podcasts on YouTube? And of course, everybody who has a podcast, you know, there's someone's favorite podcast. And if you're not on YouTube, it's like, oh. So what did you think when you saw this slide, and there's obviously a call to action to take when, when we see this?

Jay Nachlis  27:02  
Yeah, this is together, Steve Goldstein, the line that he used when, when we presented this as it's like, it's like a lottery, you know, you can't win if you don't play. And if you have people that are searching for you. So another another point that I'll make from this study is the way that people search for, you know, their favorite, but the way they're searching for podcasts and YouTube, is there not like, they're very intentional about putting it in the search box. And they're putting the name of the podcast, right? So if, if I've, if I've heard your podcast, for example, on a different platform, let's say that I've listened to it on Spotify, or Apple or Pandora, or whatever. And now I want to go see if it's on YouTube. Because as Catherine pointed out, it's a behemoth. And I'm just going to YouTube, and I type in the name of that podcast, and you don't come up. Isn't that a missed opportunity? It's a huge missed opportunity. And the other and the other point to that is, why are we not? If we're on an audio first platform, and then we are also on YouTube? Then why are we telling people that we're on YouTube? Because if they're being intentional about and putting in the name of the podcast, we'll put it in their minds. Give them the awareness that they're there. So they know to search for it? Because that is something where YouTube is not yet. You know, it feels like when you know, when you go onto YouTube, and you got to try to find the podcast page, which is this part of it to ask about this? Most people don't know what's there, right. And so it's, it's a little hard to find. Spotify is makes it much easier to find podcasts. But, you know, if you go to YouTube, you got to kind of click that compass, and you got to go down, and you got to find the podcast page. And, you know, I think that's probably, yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna get, I think they'll probably make that easier over time. But for right now, I think we have to be very specific and intentional to get people to search for your podcast.

Matt Cundill  28:58  
And also, you know, the OGS who talk about podcasting. You can find it on Apple, you can find it on Spotify, and you use it in here on a phone. And so I had a teacher that I spoke, oh, you really enjoy this podcast with your students? And they said, Oh, that's great. Is it on YouTube? Because Youtube is in the classroom. And I don't know, if I was a teacher with 20 kids in front of me how I'm going to get the audio from this phone from apple into the kids ears. But to have something visual is is really it's just, you know, again, it's YouTube is easy. YouTube is free. YouTube, everybody sort of knows how to work YouTube, which is I guess how we got here. Right? Right. Alright, so then the next thing I'll ask you a little bit is about the cross pollination of apps. So I'm like to be on YouTube because I really believe that somebody sees my show on YouTube. They may take another car and listen with another with another app, but somebody else just mentioned a second ago that it could go the other way, where somebody will listen to it on their phone and then want to go to YouTube to see the rest. Can you talk a little bit about the cross pollination of apps and people do use more than one app?

Jay Nachlis  30:09  
They do. And, you know, YouTube and Spotify are definitely the big dogs. Right. And but ultimately, it's it is interesting how much it's consolidated. There are most people are using multiple apps. And yet, there's a big three hierarchy by far, you know, it's YouTube, and it's Spotify. And it's apple. And it's great that that podcasting is this, you know, this big space where everyone can can go to all these different places to get their, their, their podcasts or favorite podcasts. But the reality is, you know, those are the those are the big ones. YouTube music is interesting, because we were very specific that it was a different app than YouTube. And the fact that that already is showing up in the top 10 in consumption was surprising.

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  31:12  
The podcast Superfriends support podcasting. 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a newer podcast app and find the full list at new podcast apps.com.

Johnny Podcasts  31:22  
You mentioned in the study that when you were kind of giving advice to podcasters at the end, you say create content for YouTube, because you're competing with all of you to not necessarily other podcasts. And I think that that ties into the cross pollination you like it, like you said, it's YouTube, Spotify and Apple. Do you think that Spotify and Apple would be able to make up some ground to YouTube by allowing all creators to have video versions of their podcast on those apps? I know Spotify has some spotty Enos there like if you're using megaphone or anchor, you can have your video version and I think it may even then it may only be regulated to certain creators, or is it just is it insurmountable ground because YouTube has so much other content available that you can as a consumer jump from your favorite podcast, to a video essay to shorts to something else? Or does Spotify an apple implementing video allow them to make up

Jay Nachlis  32:21  
some ground. This is where the branding piece comes in. In that top of mind, awareness comes in, you know, Spotify can't just offer video, and think that consumers are just going to start consuming the video on their platform. consumers think of Spotify as an audio platform. And by the way, they also think of it as a one way, a one way engagement platform. In other words, when I'm using Spotify, right, I'm it's just me, using Spotify, I'm picking out my daily mix, I'm picking out the release radar, I'm picking out this podcast to listen to putting in my library. That is a total one way experience. On YouTube. We haven't talked about this yet. You can't underestimate the engagement factor on YouTube, and the ability to put comments in, and the different level of you know, of subscribing to a podcast on on YouTube. Those factors on YouTube, I think are going to be really hard for Spotify or Apple to, to overcome the fact that it's owned by Google, there are just so many factors. And so for it for Spotify to do it, they would somehow first of all, the functionality would have to be really good. But more importantly, they would have to convince consumers of why consuming podcasts on their platform is is better. Why should I not do it on YouTube? And you can just imagine how hard of a brand that would be.

Johnny Podcasts  33:48  
And like you said, there's the there's the multi-way engagement with YouTube, like on YouTube. We're live right now on YouTube, we can engage with commenters right now people can leave tips, they can give us a $5 Super Chat for us to answer their question. You can't do that on Apple or Spotify Shaman. And we're $25 for $25. So for

Matt Cundill  34:09  
viewers or some bitcoin through fountain

Jay Nachlis  34:13  
hypothetic hypothetical. Yeah, I all of that is very is very, very true. And I think is a is a really big benefit to YouTube in the podcasting experience.

Catherine O'Brien  34:26  
So Jay, I I'm hoping this is connected. So by this logic, would it be? Let me just sort of a thought experiment by this logic, it would be also behooves us to put out full episodes on x because we can in the same way that if we're not if we're on unleashing ourselves from the it's no RSS feed, no podcast, then we should be putting it anywhere that we can have the full length episode available. What are your thoughts there?

Jay Nachlis  34:58  
I think any opera opportunity to to get your brand to get your podcast in front of the consumer is a good opportunity. So, I mean, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't except for the fact of time and effort, which I know is not a small thing, although, you know, there are certainly tools that are coming along, they're making that easier to do, and, and making, you know, wider distribution easier to do. But, you know, to me, we have to not, we have to think of this constantly coming back to what I said about unaided awareness, we have to always think about building our brain and not think about it in this agnostic, you know, platform kind of way, it's bigger than that, you know, this is about how can we get our brand in front of as many consumers as possible? And how do we get them to perceive us in a positive way, and make them want to consume us? That's it. And by the way, podcasting has to do that as an industry, not just its own your own show. But if we think of it more in that respect, as this is a big branding challenge, than I think we would start to view platforms a little bit differently.

Catherine O'Brien  36:10  
And by the way, for some reason, that was the first time I've ever said acts like that, and it felt weird, and I don't

Jay Nachlis  36:19  
have to go take a shower.

Johnny Podcasts  36:21  
I don't know I'm warming up to the idea that I like I like Twitter x. That's what I'm curious. Okay, so

Catherine O'Brien  36:27  
I will embrace.

Matt Cundill  36:28  
We are live on 2x channels right now.

Jay Nachlis  36:31  
Oh, just go triple X.

Matt Cundill  36:36  
For my sweater is

Jon Gay  36:37  
for my old radio station 95 Triple X W x x x. Burlington, Vermont?

Matt Cundill  36:42  
It's also the name of a club on St. Catherine Street in Montreal.

David Yas  36:47  
The ballet, if Twitter is or if Twitter is x, and what's a tweet now? Is it still a tweet? A post? Post? I

Johnny Podcasts  36:53  
think I think you want to Joe Rogan discussed that yesterday? I think he said just call it a post? Well,

David Yas  36:59  
but other platforms have post? All right, I don't want to tell you how to do your business alone.

Jon Gay  37:04  
And you don't listen, you don't listen or watch the post you consume the post.

Jay Nachlis  37:07  
Right. Right.

Matt Cundill  37:09  
Jay, is are you gonna follow this up at all? Because I sort of felt that like after, like a, like, within minutes, you know, when when Steve takes the stage or does something Steve from Google decides to make changes. Couple of weeks later, they released Oh, you can attach your RSS feed, we will create the videos for you. They come up with a few rules as well, you can't have your programmatic ads in there. It does a little bit of a shift. And I think you even said this on stage. I said, you know, within 10 minutes of us leaving the room, this will all be fairly outdated. And we'll all it's I can't remember the term you use. It's just it's going to be free flowing and moving and, and so on. So what are your plans to follow up with this? Is it like six months a year? Do you come back? Are you going to do this again, in Podcast Movement, or we have the the yearly update?

Jay Nachlis  37:59  
You know, rice? I mean, maybe Matt? There's no definitive? You know, we haven't. It's funny right now, we're still kind of in that period of, of doing this kind of thing where we're still sharing the results of this. So we haven't even really sat down and thought about that yet. But to your point, I think this is definitely going to be fluid. Rick, recognize that in a year from now, there is going to be I think, a need for regular research on this. And sometimes, you know, just as quantitative research will inform qualitative research, where you learn about the Watson, then you get deeper into the whys. You know, there there are going to be opportunities to get more granular on some of the themes and things that in learnings from this study. But then there's also going to be a need to track how things change based on to your point, how the algorithm changes how functionality changes how consumption of platforms changes, for sure.

Matt Cundill  38:56  
And we've already talked about a few things like oh, leaving feedback. We've talked about interaction between people, and I know even some podcasters have sort of said this feels like a bit of a game changer. But I think one of the problems with podcasting has been the inability to have interactivity with the audience. Yes, Spotify has a little q&a thing in the background. Yes, you can leave a review on Apple. But that technology of podcasting feels very simple and it doesn't feel like it's moved very much. You download from the RSS feed you listen you enjoy and then YouTube is got all these bells and whistles and likes and comments and activity. It feels like I there's there's podcasting and the RSS form have to change.

I just I listened all we've been doing is Matt, we've been talking about how all the things we can do on YouTube. It sounds exciting. And I'm looking at podcasting. This has been the same for a long time.

Jay Nachlis  40:00  
Right, right. What do you think I'm curious about your perspective on it?

Matt Cundill  40:04  
Yes, I think it does. But I sort of think that the leaders are apple and Spotify and unless they do anything, it's not going to really change the way anything, we think about downloading podcasts. I enjoyed the fountain app, I think it's great that we can listen live, I can go in and maybe send some Satoshis. And you want to get into a little bit of value for value. I think it's great that that there's a lot of podcast apps out there that I can search geo local, and listen to just the podcasts in Raleigh. I think it's great that, you know, we can have captions and transcription so that, but Apple unless apple and Spotify start to do this, it's all for naught.

Johnny Podcasts  40:45  
Right? It becomes this point where podcasting would have to make the decision, Matt, that the term goes away. And it because everything just becomes content. Apple and Spotify have to become YouTube in order to compete with YouTube. Because if you're going to allow just, you know, Joe Rogan style podcast back and forth between speakers, but now we're adding in the the function of comments and likes and dislikes, that's still not enough to compete with YouTube in terms of, even if that's how you change the RSS feed, that's still not enough to keep up with video reactions, political comments, to everything that you see car reviews, everything that you see on YouTube, you have to be able to allow all of that if you're going to compete with it. And then it all just becomes that everything just becomes from RSS, it all just becomes it is all YouTube.

Jon Gay  41:36  
And one of the things your point Johnny and talking to I think it was my friends at simple cast a Podcast Movement as well asking, Hey, can you get video in the RSS feed? The amount and yes, with data becoming much more easy with you know, 5g and everything else to transfer large data to get if you keep the RSS feed, the amount of the file size you would need to transmit video as opposed to just audio is going to be is so massive, it's such a game changer. And particularly in other countries where they don't have as much high speed internet or limited bandwidth like we do here in the States and Canada. They it would be such an undertaking to get video into the RSS feed. I don't know how that happens. Aside from the little bit. The Spotify is jumping with it now and Spotify for podcasters. Formerly anchor.

Jay Nachlis  42:23  
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's that's a really good point. I didn't think about it that way. But that's a that's a that's a huge technical challenge.

Matt Cundill  42:32  
So another one for the next study. I'm not sure if you touched it in a study study. And that's, you know, to Catherine's point x, and Twitch, and Spotify, which does have video and Apple podcasts where you can put a video, podcast down the RSS feed. Is that something that you did you think about including those are this was all going to be YouTube? And does next years include those platforms? Maybe?

Jay Nachlis  42:59  
Yes, we did include some of those platforms, we did include twitch in there. I mean, you know, ultimately, those levels are fairly low right now. But again, I only expect them to go up over time. And and particularly if you're trying to reach, you know, Twitch if you're trying to reach younger consumers. You know, why not? Why not be there.

Johnny Podcasts  43:18  
I'm not super familiar with Twitch. But the arguments that I've heard for that versus YouTube is that as as much ground as YouTube has over Spotify and Apple in terms of community building, from what I've heard, Twitch has an even higher level of that to where if you if we were to, once we leave this live stream on YouTube are, our audience has nowhere to go to continue engaging with each other, even if it's just the comments section. But apparently, Twitch has an even deeper level of that where they can kind of continue building the community. And ultimately, when you're getting into podcasting, that's what you're trying to build. You're trying to build your 1000 true fans, your tribe of people that love consuming your content. And the way that you continue to grow that tribe is allowing them to interact with each other, not just they hear Johnny's voice and now they feel like they're a part of something.

Jay Nachlis  44:08  
Yeah, I think like a next round of research on this would be really interesting to dive specifically into some of those other platforms and some of the differences, you know, between them.

Jon Gay  44:19  
I love how we've dealt with the assigned J and a second version of this study, and we're not able to fund it, but yeah, Jay, let me do it. Let me ask you this. Is there a recommended call to action at the end of a podcast? I know we've all kind of railed against rate and review because that doesn't really do much as far as chart position. I think that but if you were to say follow the show on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you're listening right now, based on all this research, do you have any kind of a maybe not an exact recommendation, but general recommendation as far as what you should be asking from your audience to connect with your show as you wrap up each episode?

Jay Nachlis  44:58  
Well, I think at the The I would definitely coming back to what I said earlier, as far as I don't like the umbrella term everywhere you get your podcasts, right, you know, and I do think that if you're going to mention platforms, specifically, YouTube almost never gets mentioned as far as when I'm listened to specifically and I think we need to be intentional about mentioning YouTube. And then at but as far as the verbiage with SUBSCRIBE and FOLLOW and all that I think that that's, that's less important. I think it's more important to let people know where to find you.

Jon Gay  45:35  
Would you recommend saying say YouTube, Apple, Spotify or just YouTube? Or were your thoughts on what if you should mention specific platforms?

Jay Nachlis  45:43  
Well, knowing that three quarters of them are in those three, then yes, I would definitely mention those three,

Matt Cundill  45:50  
can I push back on that, of course, I don't want to send people to YouTube to listen to it, they're not going to hear the my clients ads. And that's not going to make their cash register ring. So I'm just going to fold my arms and go home.

David Yas  46:06  
For one of my clients, I put in the YouTube ads manually. And you have to have a strategy because they're gonna see some YouTube ads before they see the ads that you put in, there is a box to check that say it's your a sponsored a podcast or whatever. But get this maybe as a decent segue since now I have the floor. So I don't know if anyone cares about this as much as I do. But one of the differences that YouTube has to other streaming services is its attitude towards copyrighted material. And we I've been doing a podcast for three years now, which uses music clips that we then comment on. And I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I do have a law degree and very confident that using them in small bursts for the purposes of commentary or criticism, or parody is protected under the Copyright Act. But YouTube decides, you know, we've been putting these up on Spotify and Apple, of course, and Spotify is doing something very shrewd when they detect copyrighted material, they send you an email saying, Are you allowed to use this? You check the box saying, Yes, I am. And at least they sort of have themselves covered there. And they don't take the material down. I can upload a 10 second video of my son jumping into a pool with an AC DC song playing on it and YouTube will take it down or removed the music. And I don't know if it I don't know if there's a question for Jay or anyone else on the panel whether you know whether YouTube will continue with that stance. And will a lot of podcasts get kicked off?

Matt Cundill  47:35  
Well, let me tell you, I wanted to do my friend Doug a favor the other night. And I will just attach his podcast to the RSS feed and upload and create 236 videos of his two minute podcast. And did I not discover within minutes that there were three a copyright infringement that I got noticed on I said, this is bad for my channel. And I made that disappear so fast. Oops.

Jay Nachlis  48:01  
I don't I don't have an opinion on the technical side of that, except just to say that it is such a it is a missed opportunity. It's a it's just a bummer. That that's not a bigger opportunity. Right because music podcasts is such an opportunity for for podcasting in general. And

David Yas  48:21  
somewhere along the line, people in this industry developed this hypersensitivity to no don't use copyrighted material ever, under any circumstances. That's that's really not what the law says. But if YouTube wants to take it off, I suppose there's not much if they want to be that hypersensitive about it. There's not much we can do to fight it. I mean, you know, bring a huge First Amendment case right up to the Supreme Court, me and my music podcast.

Jon Gay  48:45  
I don't have any other priorities right now. I guess

Johnny Podcasts  48:50  
just one quick comment to tag back on your your pushback, I'll push back on your pushback of mentioning YouTube. If you have a video strategy on YouTube and you build up your subscriber base to where it's a monetized channel, then it does behoove the Creator to point them to YouTube, because then they can it's while it's probably not as much that they would make if they're consuming elsewhere, there is still ad money that can come in.

Matt Cundill  49:16  
under my breath that that podcast about broadcast is going to be become something subs. I'm just not sure we'll get there. But yes, you're right. You are right. Yeah.

Jon Gay  49:26  
The problem here though is, is even if even if YouTube is starting to ingest RSS feeds, correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jay, but don't you have separate metrics for your YouTube views and your downloads for your odd for your podcast host? So you're almost splitting the baby because you're have to now take take into consideration both numbers to figure out how many people consuming your show.

Jay Nachlis  49:48  
Yeah, I mean, I know that there's there's new tools that are trying to make that easier to digest, but it is at this point, right? It's still very clunky and problematic, for sure. You know, I would point you to 111 I want to give one shout out because they not just because they sponsored our study, but because they're doing a really good job of it is locked on podcast network, you know, which is a lot right, a locally focus Sports Network doing daily YouTubes episodes or one other teams in all other cities every single day. Yeah, and monetizing. It's crazy, because you wouldn't thought ESPN, you would think would be the company that would have done this but locked on comes on, and essentially is owning this daily podcasts market. And they've said to all of their hosts, no matter and they're very different, right. Some of their hosts are, you know, come from TV, and newspaper, and are really seasoned, and others are a little bit more like, out of the garage. But they're all really good and interesting. And they have bought into the fact that they've got to do every single show every day on video, period. And they've given them the tools to do it. And they upload the episode every day, and they're done. And to have that much video content on a daily basis across all those sports. It's, I think it's really impressive in their mind,

Johnny Podcasts  51:13  
I agree and what they've tapped into to like you said, like, you're like, Well, why wouldn't people just tune into ESPN, they've tapped into what's so beautiful about podcasting is the niche aspect of it. ESPN can't dedicate every single show every single day to the Dallas Mavericks, they have to cover the national general appeal to everybody, especially

Jon Gay  51:34  
half a staff. Exactly they cut half their staff at ESPN.

Johnny Podcasts  51:38  
Yeah and and versus the locked on Dallas podcast, Dallas Mavericks podcast, I'm a suit if I'm a super fan of that team, I can just consume that and get the daily the daily you know, kind of injection that I want for that every single day. And for them to be kind of a first mover on that I think is just is really impressive.

Matt Cundill  51:57  
I had Brian on my show. And and the more he was talking, the more I thought this was really an attack on local radio, that you only got a four hour block to talk about said sports team. But every single day there was going to be a show where you had enough time to talk about the third line power play, or who's going to be at cornerback this week to cover the receiver who's coming to town and to really go deep on subject matter. So

Jay Nachlis  52:23  
that's right.

Jon Gay  52:24  
Every team we've mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast has their own podcast on lockdown So shout out to Carl Weinstein and his team at lockdown because to your point everybody they do a great job there is a dedicated podcast for whichever team you already diehard have

Matt Cundill  52:41  
locked on Winnipeg Jets is that a Baltimore

Jon Gay  52:45  
but it's a it's a but it's legit Jets fan who absolutely hosted right yeah,

Catherine O'Brien  52:49  
it's the Baton Rouge Zydeco hockey team. I will be looking for their podcast right now.

Johnny Podcasts  52:55  
Yeah, I'll be looking for the Fort Worth Panthers lacrosse national team.

Jon Gay  52:59  
It could be a good could be coming, you might want to look so see when the saints Catherine.

Matt Cundill  53:04  
Catherine, did you have a question?

Catherine O'Brien  53:07  
I did. So first of all, I just J, I want to just thank you for the language of the brand. This is a branding issue that that's how we should be looking at this because this leads into my next question is I'm curious. I'm very positive. But what what kind of pushback Did you receive to use the word pushback for the 12th? Time here? What kind of angry fist feedback did you get? Did you get from the very passionate RSS crowd?

Matt Cundill  53:35  
Oh, jeez.

Jay Nachlis  53:38  
Honestly, not a ton. It was the I think a few of the people that you would expect to offer pushback on it did offer some pushback. You know, there were a couple, I guess, say their names. I will not. And can't call them tweets, right, or posts or whatever. But we saw a few of those back and forth. But honestly, it went away after about a week. And most of the feedback we've gotten from it has been very positive. And has been a lot of great questions. And in discussions and, you know, what should we do with this? And what's next, and how should we use it? And so overall, I've been I honestly expected more negativity than we ended up getting. And I I'm optimistic about the fact that, you know, this isn't, this isn't like some easy prescription. This is to get people thinking in different ways. Moving forward.

Johnny Podcasts  54:37  
Well, and it's like you said to at the very top, this is about the consumer, what we're doing is making content for the consumer. We're not making podcasts for the five or six guys and gals that are really diehard RSS feed fans, they can push back up against the wall of technology and YouTube and Google's all they want. But if I'm a consumer and all I care about is that my favorite podcast is on YouTube. I'm not Gotta take aside in this fight. I'm just gonna go watch my favorite podcasts on YouTube.

Jay Nachlis  55:05  
Johnny, I'm going to I'm going to make a radio two podcasts and energy here, which is, you know, in radio, they there are people that program radio stations that are obsessed with the next meter holder or diary keeper, the people that give radio stations ratings. And so it's like, you're totally focused on how do I game the system? How do I manipulate their behavior? How do I get them to give me ratings, rather than how do I build my brand? And, and that's what's happening right now, in podcasting. Everyone is obsessed with software, everyone's obsessed with their downloads and their analytics and, and where they listen, and how many times they listen. And they're not thinking about their brand. They're thinking about the numbers. And radio to its credit. I learned a long time ago that brand research and strategic research was really important in the way to build big iconic, important brands. And overall, podcasting just hasn't really learned this lesson quite yet. And I think eventually they will. But that's what's going back to the point I made about unaided awareness. That's the, that's what's happening. There's, there's too much focus on the wrong thing. So

Johnny Podcasts  56:20  
obviously, sorry, go ahead, Johnny. I was gonna say, I'm seeing the same thing with some of my clients where, you know, I'll provide these kind of like monthly reports, hey, here's the breakdown of how many people listened on Apple? How many people listen on Spotify? Here's how many people watched on YouTube subscribers game. And we I got to a point with a couple of them where we're just like, who cares? Are we making good content? Is this are we doing something for the audience that is listening, regardless of where they're coming from? Is it a high production quality? Are we happy with the episode that we're putting out there? If so great. Who cares if Spotify dropped 10%, and Apple jumped up? 4%. That means nothing in the long term plan of where you see ourselves doing this for 15 or 20 more years, how do we reach a point where we are? Like you said, a big brand at that point?

Jay Nachlis  57:05  
Right? Why? Why? Why are the numbers doing what they're doing? What, you know, how engaging is that? Is that brand to them? What is it means to them? You know, how important is it to them? And are they remembering it? Is it sticky? And so that's what we that's what you'd care about.

Matt Cundill  57:20  
So I will say that when you are on stage, I just wanted to show a tweet that I that I did put out. And so you hit I think, this particular slide, which says the seven key findings. And this is a picture, this is my tweet that I did. The definition of a podcast has changed YouTube is the number one app for podcast and that at the top, I said, has anybody checked on Geek news, of course, is one of the Oh, geez, that is Todd Cochran. But he did respond down below. And he basically said, that's all area stuff. Right now. I see major companies that are number one, yet none of them have less than half a percent of podcasts, global market share, which of course is just a different way of, you know, every everybody looking at things. But I guess I sort of wanted to lead into the time that we have now. Can we go do what most people do when they get a research study? When I say most people, I mean, the owner of the company, the general manager at a radio station, and that's they turn right to the back of the book and then pull out the executive summary. Yeah,

Jon Gay  58:27  
so your executive summary, Matt? Yeah.

Matt Cundill  58:30  
So that's yeah. So this, this one, these these ones here, I think are fairly obvious, which is, you know, the definition of the podcast has changed. YouTube is the number one app for podcasts. And that, of course, was the slide that you know, you've got a little bit of, well, it's pushed back on. And I think some of this other stuff here we covered, you know, four out of 10, podcasts, consumers prefer audio only. And then the multiple platforms, right that. So if I'm watching on YouTube, I'm also using other apps, right. One out of four YouTube podcasts, consumers can't find their favorite podcasts there. I think that's eye opening. And, you know, shout out to Steve Goldstein, like you said, you can't win the lottery. If you don't buy a ticket and 40% of YouTube podcasts, consumers discover new podcasts on a new podcast on shorts, which again, has added to our workload, Jay. You're welcome. Yeah,

Jon Gay  59:33  
I'm back coach a bit for a second one of the points that you put up there. I know you had the slide up really didn't get a chance to address it. But Jay and But Jay and Steve made this point is that older demographics like number three, right? They're older demographics are consuming on YouTube. Jay, you would pointed this out, because it's easy to use. It's may or may not know how to use Apple or Spotify, but chances are I mean, my parents are 69 and 72. They probably know how to go on you open up a web browser and go to YouTube.

Jay Nachlis  59:59  
It It is I know, it's surprising to most of us seasoned podcast users. But it's so true that that there are so many that see that as friction, but they understand how to use you too. I totally agree with that.

Catherine O'Brien  1:00:15  
This is really like about embrace embracing what is not what we would like podcasting to be what is the reality?

Matt Cundill  1:00:24  
I did think that the best line and we'll we'll some will will finish it this way, too, by the way, the way. I think I've got the wrong slide here. Which one that I want? Oh, yeah, two more up here, fix it in post. I'll fix it and post. It says how you finish it. And I recall this earlier was be patient was results may vary. Right? Can you speak to that a little bit for people who have made it to the end of this particular show? And what can you tell them you know, about, you know, just putting this into your study? Because I think it's really, really important that maybe they think I've got to do this now. But how should they be evaluating what they do going forward?

Jay Nachlis  1:01:04  
So first of all, it's figure out the best way for your podcast to be on YouTube. And as I pointed out earlier, that that is going to be different for everybody. But assuming that you put your podcasts on YouTube, don't expect today, if you start obsessing over how many views each one gets in every episode gets and why did this one to so much better? And why did this one have 300 and this one had 3000, and so on and so forth, you're gonna drive yourself crazy. Right now, it's build the brand, get yourself some awareness, and then figure it out from there. But it's going to take time, and it's going to take YouTube time, figure out the ways to optimize your podcast in that space, and how you're utilizing it. But don't worry about the numbers right now. Honestly, I know it's easier said than done. I totally get that. But, but as they're making all of those changes, just be patient, because six months from now, all of the algorithms are going to be different. And and then the usage patterns of consumers are going to be different.

Matt Cundill  1:02:15  
All right. Final, final thoughts. Anyone?

Johnny Podcasts  1:02:19  
Thank you for taking the time. Jake, I really appreciate this. Thank you, Jay. It is really helpful to have kind of these insights. And we're all far too busy to put the time and to do something as well as you did it. And so we, you know, you've done you know, you've done the whole industry a lot of good by bringing this to the forefront. So we appreciate that

Jon Gay  1:02:41  
stuff, easily the best guests you've ever had on the show.

Jay Nachlis  1:02:45  
And as your only guests. Big thank you for me. Thank you.

Matt Cundill  1:02:50  
Jay, are you receptive to any additional questions from people who want to know more about this? Always? Alright, so you're okay, if I post up your email address?

Jay Nachlis  1:03:00  
By all means,

Johnny Podcasts  1:03:01  
okay. What about your home address? Maybe not.

Jon Gay  1:03:05  
All right, rattle it off. For those who are consuming an audio only and not on video. Matt? Are you gonna give me your email address verbally?

Matt Cundill  1:03:12  
I'll put it in the show notes. Perfect. If you if you want to. If you want more information about this. It's in the show notes of this episode. Again, the description,

Jay Nachlis  1:03:21  
just put in the subject line to the email to me go bills. Thanks.

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  1:03:26  
Thanks for listening to the podcast Super Friends. For a transcript of the show, or to connect with the Super Friends. Go to the show notes of this episode, or go to sound off dot Network.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai