Bryan Goldmark: Locked On

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
I met Bryan Goldmark at a cocktail party last year at Podcast Movement under the downtown Dallas heat and over a couple of expensive margaritas. He told me about the locked on Podcast Network. It's directed at those p one sports fans in local markets. Perfect if you cheer on anything from the Buffalo Bills to the Carolina Hurricanes. Bryan's no stranger to radio. His dad worked in New York, Miami in Sacramento, and Brian himself also has experience in sales. Once working for the late CBS Radio, he now heads up sales for locked on. The company was founded in 2016 by David Locke, who is the radio voice of the Utah Jazz, the company was purchased in 2021 by Tegna, which is part of Gwinnett. Now in the past, you may have heard me talking about my podcast network, which is a community of content creators who wish to stay independent and make money their way. That's not what locked on is. Bryan is going to tell us how they do things, and locked on borrows a lot from what makes radio successful. Brian Goldmark joins me from San Francisco. Your dad was in radio.

Bryan Goldmark  1:21  
He was yeah, I come from a long background of radio. My dad worked in radio since the 70s. He worked at some major radio stations WRKO in Boston. Hot 97. In Miami, I think you've worked in over a dozen markets. So it was fun when I started working in the radio industry and moved to New York. And a couple of people recognized my last name, which was a lot of fun.

Matt Cundill  1:44  
So it was back in the day it was town to town and up and down the dial but you get to be the kid in the family who does that. What was it like being a kid growing up and knowing that we have to move to Boston or away from Boston or to another market.

Bryan Goldmark  1:59  
I was fortunate that my father only moved us once I moved from Miami to Sacramento, my dad had the opportunity to take over the cluster which was at the time easy telecommunications, I believe now at CBS radio for a cluster of stations here in Sacramento, which included at the time now it's K H T K, which is the sports radio station that covers the Sacramento Kings. So I had an opportunity to be very much involved in sports broadcasting from an early age.

Matt Cundill  2:31  
And sports is all the rage when you're you know, 18 to 24. Sports Radio was something that came of age in the 90s. And you likely grew up alongside of it. And so what was your first job in sports radio,

Bryan Goldmark  2:44  
technically, my first job would have been an unpaid voiceover for a mother and son getting a booster shot I believe when I was about seven years old and my, my dad needed voiceover work in the studio for a client outside of that my first real job in radio was fresh out of college. And Danny Bortnick hired me at CBS radio here, out in New York City, you know, and that's where I was really working at a radio station. It was a it was a hot AC. And that's where I got the job. But with the CBS cluster, I had an opportunity to start to sell into, you know, 1010 wins and the CBS Sports station out there in New York.

Matt Cundill  3:21  
I mean, that's market number one. So I can only imagine how cutthroat that is,

Bryan Goldmark  3:25  
it was definitely a good place to start. And my father like to joke that I was getting my master's degree in New York City in sales,

Matt Cundill  3:34  
give me one story about a personality.

Bryan Goldmark  3:37  
Not really sure I have one honestly.

Matt Cundill  3:40  
That's that's fine. I don't think the personalities and the salespeople work that closely together, back then.

Bryan Goldmark  3:45  
Not at the time, you know, now it's much different. Now at locked on, it's a much different experience. We work so closely with our hosts, what we do in sales is so impactful down to the hosts, it has to be one of the most rewarding sales jobs I've ever been in because of the connection that we have to the talent because of the influence and impact that my role has on their day to day lives. It's pretty incredible to see. I spoke with one of our hosts this morning, actually. So it's we're very, very involved here at locked on verse. My time at cats are at a local station.

Matt Cundill  4:23  
How did you know that time and radio and radio sales was going to I don't want to say in for you, but transition out of terrestrial radio went into a digital sphere?

Bryan Goldmark  4:31  
Yeah, you know, I knew I wanted to be in radio from a very early age, you know, I was exposed to what radio was back in the 90s. And growing up with a sports radio station and going to the Sacramento Kings games in 2001 2002. And we had our playoff run. I was exposed to the best of radio and that really encouraged me to pursue a career in radio after I had some time in local and I moved to LA National at cats, I just saw the evolution coming, I started to lean into more of the digital properties that cats had to offer. Spotify was one of their clients at the time, and I just leaned into it I connected with the product, I could see the evolution you know, it's not, it's not very often you get to join a heritage medium, and be a part of the innovation. See, see the wheel being reinvented. And that was something that really excited me. And I wanted to be a part of and Brian Forbes gave me the opportunity when he pulled me over from CATS, radio to Westwood one to be the Digital Sales Manager for the podcast network at Westwood one. And, you know, that's when I had the first opportunity to really jump into the deep end.

Matt Cundill  5:48  
So when I look at a sports network, like locked on, it kind of reminds me of a sports radio station only we're going to be everybody's sports radio station, we're going to be available 24/7. But we've also got a much larger clock, it's not like we have to fill 168 hours of the week, it's kind of infinite, how much time you can fill this is this. This is sports radio on speed for you.

Bryan Goldmark  6:12  
It is nonstop. And sports engagement never ends either. We like to meet the fan, wherever they are, whenever they are, we always joke there's no offseason for the real sports fan. I've been a diehard kings fan, even when they've been terrible for the last 15 years, sports fans don't turn it off. And we don't turn off our shows either.

Matt Cundill  6:32  
So tell me about the recruitment process. Let's say I have a podcast and the podcast is in whatever market and maybe you've got an availability for that. How do you bring a podcaster into your sphere?

Bryan Goldmark  6:44  
Yeah, I mean, we have an incredible group of people that scout for talent, Tom Lee is our Director of talent scouting and development. And I've talked with him about this, you know, what we look for when we're trying to find a new host to either bring on a new show, whether that's a new college show, we're always growing our college network as we add more universities, or we're elevating a current show whether something happened with a host or we're bringing it on for the first time. What we look for is more than anything, I think, a passion for their team. You know, our end goal is to make this sports fan experience better. Our listeners are committed to their team, they are diehard fans, and you have to be that same type of fan to be one of our hosts, you know, there's no there's no passive sports fans in the lockdown network. And so, you know, a knowledge or a history with the team is very important lifelong fans. It's it's okay to be a fan. You know, journalism, a journalist or a radio personality, absolutely will help you become better, certainly put you in a better position to be a great podcast host. But you have to be a good entertainer. You have to love what you do. You have to share in the wins and losses with your team. I think that a really passionate listener can feel that from the host. And that's what it takes more than anything to be a great sports podcast host a great locked on host media experience helps, but it isn't everything.

Matt Cundill  8:17  
You mentioned recruiting from podcasts. But have you ever recruited straight out of sports radio? Or maybe you check the trades? And then somebody has been laid off? And oh, I think there's an opportunity here?

Bryan Goldmark  8:28  
Oh, absolutely. I mean, our network was founded on a radio personality. Right. David Locke, our founder president, he is still a contributor of Locked On Jazz. He's the host. That was our first podcast locked on Jazz and the network grew from there. Absolutely. We're looking for those opportunities. There have been a lot of changes as of late in the local sports coverage. Space certainly opens up a lot of opportunities for elevated talent.

Matt Cundill  8:55  
What's the compensation like? Because when you and I spoke in Dallas over I think it was two or maybe three margaritas? We were talking a little bit about the compensation for for host, I mean, locked on you guys would own the podcast. So how does the performer get paid?

Bryan Goldmark  9:12  
Yeah, I think that that's a really important factor of how we're structured. You know, we own all of our podcasts, everything is locked on blank. And that's a very different model than most podcast networks where they represent the show's hosts come to lockdown. They want to be a part of the lockdown network because we can offer so much as a network to support that host whether that's the brand recognition, support and distribution efforts. But when it comes to monetization, it's really your opportunity to make this either a full time job or just part of your sports broadcast portfolio. The larger your audience is the larger share of revenue that you're able to take, you know, so so if you can grow your audience if you can lean into what it takes to Be great. Bring in your audience for that sports team, you have the opportunity to to grow your income. We definitely have podcast hosts that do this as a part time job. We also have hosts that do this full time, you know and have been able to support themselves and their families, by home send their kids to the school they want to it's really incredible. It is what you make it with lockdown.

Matt Cundill  10:23  
I've seen some numbers from the Toronto Maple Leafs. I've seen numbers from the LA Lakers. And they're astronomically awesome, probably because they got big followings. But then I look at a team like the Jacksonville Jaguars. So I mean, is it safe to say that the person in LA is going to wind up with a much bigger check in a bigger house and the person who's doing the locked on Jags podcast.

Bryan Goldmark  10:45  
And that's one way of looking at it. Definitely.

Matt Cundill  10:48  
I don't mean to single out your your Jags person here. But I just comparing markets.

Bryan Goldmark  10:52  
He's amazing too. He's amazing, too. It really is what you make it we sell as a network. I think that that's what's really important to understand. We don't sell individual shows ever. We sell the locked on NFL Network, the NBA network. And those shows collectively compete with some of the biggest shows in the country. And while yes, the LA Lakers podcast host might be making more the locked on Jaguars host is making more as part of the lockdown network than they ever could as a standalone local podcast. And I think that that's one of the really unique factors of joining the lockdown network. You know, I saw a recent report from a Cass and Magellan that reported that 44% of advertising spend goes to the top 500 shows how would the local Jacksonville Jaguars hosts ever make money? How would they ever compete with those top 500 shows? The answer is locked on is joining the locked on network, right. So individually, they would never compete with the top 500 shows it would be very hard to monetize that individual show. However, when they join the collective locked on NFL Network, the locked on NFL Network is in fact a top 10 Sports podcast every day. And so collectively together, it's not about the Lakers hosts making more money or that obviously we're crossing sports here. But it's not about one host making more money than another. It's it's they are all taking part in making money. They are all getting a piece of the pie that I don't think that they would truly see without being part of our larger network.

Matt Cundill  12:36  
So what if they bring a sponsor to the table?

Bryan Goldmark  12:39  
Tremendous, we will handle them with care. There is definitely a difference between local sponsors and national sponsors. If you are a host that can go out and sell as well and bring a local sponsor onto your show. You take a much bigger piece of that pie for sure. We make sure that all of our hosts have the resources to be successful, whether that's them going out and selling their own show to a local sponsor, or host of locked on Auburn does an absolutely phenomenal job of doing that. Or if you just want to turn over the responsibilities of monetization to our sales team will do all the heavy lifting for you.

Matt Cundill  13:18  
Yeah, so sales idea whether it'd be Lowe's or Home Hardware or Home Depot tables, target them to Buffalo Bills, fans, they need them every Sunday, right?

Bryan Goldmark  13:29  
They do. They're gonna go through some plastic tables, that's for sure.

Matt Cundill  13:31  
Do you ever come to any difficult decisions when it comes to really big market teams are teams that travel well, like the Packers and the Cowboys? I mean, how many cowboys Podcasts can you have? How many packers podcast Can you have?

Bryan Goldmark  13:43  
We only lean into one, right? So we will only have one primary locked on packers show. And we just we put all our resources to that becoming the number one packers podcast in the country, especially in their market. You know, we lean into marketing and promotion and distribution efforts. Our parent company Tegna has innovated the way that we distribute and build our hosts credibility, whether that's opportunities for being on linear TV actually on a Tegna news station, or distributing their podcasts on OTT or CTV or fast TV. We are giving every possible resource to our hosts to grow themselves as a sports personality and improve their reach for that podcast. So we don't want to muddy the waters. We don't want three packers podcasts. We want one packers podcast and it's going to be the best packers podcast in the country.

Matt Cundill  14:42  
And how often are they obligated to produce a show?

Bryan Goldmark  14:46  
Every day all year long? Monday through Friday. That's a big part of becoming a lockdown host is buying into this and really committing it is five days a week. 30 minute episodes every show is 20 to 30 minutes in length always and Monday through Friday. There's a there's a slight offseason. There's about a month in every offseason where we come down to three Shows a week. Outside of that very short hiatus window. All of our shows are Monday through Friday, which is pretty impressive to have over 200 shows producing every single day to watch manage.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  15:25  
transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. The sound of podcast supports podcasting 2.0 So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at new podcast apps.com

Matt Cundill  15:57  
So I went and zeroed in on the market that I'm in right now. That happens to be Winnipeg. Indeed there is a locked on Winnipeg Jets. And indeed it is producing content every day. As we are recording this. It is July. What could you possibly be be talking about? Again, it's that's Harrison Lee, who's doing it notably based out of Baltimore, also a Cavs fan but he's covering the Winnipeg Jets every single day doing doing locked on with the new episode every day.

Bryan Goldmark  16:26  
As I mentioned, you know, there is a common misconception about the engagement or interest in a in a sport or a team. When games are not being played. You think about the NFL right? April, what's happening in April, the games ended Super Bowl was in February, the draft. It's the biggest time of the year. Shortly after that there's trading camps and trade deadlines. I don't know if you're seeing in the news right now of what's happening to running backs in the NFL with a lot of major running backs not being resigned and what that means for running backs. The fantasy football drafts are right around the corner. There is a lot to talk about training camps, trade deadlines, you name it, whatever sport there is a lot that goes on in the quote unquote offseason. That is what I mean by we are talking to the most passionate fan, the folks listening to the Winnipeg Jets podcast right now. That is the most diehard Winnipeg Jets listener or fan that you can possibly speak to. And I think that that's one of the most important factors, especially when we talk to advertisers about who we're reaching. This is a leaned in audience, this is the most passionate fan that you can reach. And so there's plenty to talk about right outside of maybe what you think is tentpole headlines.

Matt Cundill  17:51  
Yeah, and I think with the diminishing of sports radio in Canada, I mean, this is just absolutely perfect. I mean, I hated listening to radio and hearing them break down the third line, power player, the third line center, and who's going to be on the fourth line and all that crazy stuff, but it's really the perfect place to be doing and design a podcast.

Bryan Goldmark  18:11  
What's been very interesting is the trend that we've seen lately of a lot of broadcast networks, starting to not lean into local sports coverage, which I think opens the door wide open for locked on to become the go to destination for local sports fans looking to engage with their team. You know, I one of the one of the challenges for a really passionate sports fan. Listening to sports radio, is not knowing what you're going to hear legendary Ken br San Francisco, I'm a diehard 40 Niners fan, but I am not a warriors fan. When I turn on K and br I don't want to be met with updates on Steph Curry and the Warriors. I don't want to sit through listening to updates on baseball and basketball, I want to hear about what's going on with my 40 Niners. And that's the key difference between locked on and traditional sports talk radio is that you get exactly what you're looking for when you want it. There's no fluff. This is really high quality sports talk for the sports fan. And so you come to us and you get exactly what you're looking for.

Matt Cundill  19:26  
So you've also got locked on Atlanta locked on Cleveland locked on the Bay Area. These are podcasts that are really dealing with, you know, the entire market. So a little bit different first of all, why those cities? And secondly, how's the structure different for those particular shows?

Bryan Goldmark  19:42  
That's a new strategy for us called the locked on city model. We are leaning into some of the most passionate sports markets in the country that have many teams for sports fans to engage with that coincides also with Techno markets that are really important, right? So Cleveland, something that we're leaning into with our innovative distribution methods is fast TV. If you're not familiar with fast TV, essentially, that's free TV, when you plug in your new Samsung television, and you have no apps or anything else downloaded on it, you have a preset list of free television chive. TV is always my favorite example of fast TV, you know, you turn it on and 24/7 in these markets, we're able to lean into fast TV, and have all of those podcasts on there. Actually, they're produced on linear television as well, in some cases for Tegna TV stations. So this is just kind of next level sports broadcast, podcast television, it's kind of the culmination of everything you want as a sports fan in one place.

Matt Cundill  20:54  
Tell me about YouTube and video. And, you know, I think a lot of sports podcasts, probably, I mean, some of them could have started out on YouTube and then say, Oh, look, we can put the audio in as an RSS feed. How do you look at the relationship between video and audio? Because I know with audio, it's, we can put the programmatic ads in. But now you've got some videos. So how do you handle that,

Bryan Goldmark  21:17  
we might need to circle back to programmatic. I have some thoughts on that. But video has become very important for us. I spoke with Bryan Levine recently, who's our Director of Production, just about the importance of video and what we're doing lately, we've leaned into it much more in the last year and a half. I think the relationship, the differences between video and audio are really the opportunity to connect on a more personal level with your listeners, right? We think of our own industry, right? We could talk over the phone and over emails for however long, but the moment you meet in person, it's a more deeper, more meaningful connection. You know, our hosts have the opportunity to brand themselves brand, their personalities, and you put your face out there, you're inviting listeners into your studio. And with that you can create a deeper, more meaningful connection. And I think that that's the power of video, just from from a listener standpoint, is is connecting on that next level, the video also has helped improve distribution, and marketing in a sense, but more distribution in that YouTube is the fastest growing platform right now. And so like I said, we meet our listeners where they are. And so I think if you're not using YouTube, if you're not using video, you're just missing out on a massive portion of listeners that are they're ready, hungry for the content of it's just about meeting them in their environment. And that's what video allows us to do with YouTube, whether that's on YouTube, or as I mentioned, OTT and CTV.

Matt Cundill  22:54  
So what are those thoughts you had on programmatic that you want to share?

Bryan Goldmark  22:57  
It's been an interesting path down programmatic. I remember last year at Podcast Movement, that was the buzzword, programmatic it was everywhere. It was it felt like the only thing anybody was talking about. I've gone down the path, I've explored it right of monetization, I think, you know, I refer back to the AKs. And Magellan report about podcasts revenue only reaching the top 500. I think that there has been this narrative, that programmatic will help the little guy that is how podcasters outside the top 500 are going to start seeing revenue. And and that's how we're gonna get to a $10 billion industry, right is through programmatic. But I just I think that that narrative is slightly skewed towards larger publishers, in order to really see programmatic revenue, you do need to be a part of a larger publishing network, right, the host of locked on Auburn wouldn't go seek out programmatic ad revenue on their own, they wouldn't have the resources as a local host. But then when you're part of a larger network, even still, the CPMs are so low, the revenue is distributed so widely across 1000s of shows that it's really hard for the little guy to see any sort of meaningful revenue. And so I think that there's just this misconception that programmatic advertising is is to the benefit of all of the shows outside of the top 500. I'm not so sure that to be true. I think that programmatic will be valuable to the top five top 10 publishers and it will help improve advertising adoption for brands like Procter and Gamble, who need those data points and are looking to kind of transition from traditional digital advertising into our new space. I just think that we need to be careful about how we position it, how we talk to hosts about the value of programmatic still today, the best to podcast advertising, that will drive the most revenue that drives the highest rate that performs at the highest level continues to be the host read ad rate.

Matt Cundill  25:10  
Fascinating, because I always thought that maybe locked on would have their hand in some programmatic in some capacity. But I'm going to guess that you're in charge of 100% of the inventory of the network. And the clients that you're chasing, if you were to open up the programmatic tab, they would just find a very low CPM to come in and take your inventory as opposed to you charging a proper CPM, correct?

Bryan Goldmark  25:34  
It's it's a great question. We are available on programmatic we have gone down that route. I went to the same school as Tomas Rodriguez from the trade desk. And so you know, it's definitely been an area of interest that we've pursued. But I think it's a different advertiser. Right. And it's a different campaign in its entirety. Programmatic is I think it was Marshall from AD results. That said, the live host read ad continues to be beachfront property, and locked on, we've kind of talked about it that a programmatic ad is sure you're gonna have a seat for the game, you know, but you're in the nosebleeds. When you buy programmatic ad, when you buy a live read, you're in the lower bowl, you have floor seats, right, the quality of the ad is so important. There was a report recently that said that creative was the most important factor in an ad campaign. So the value of programmatic advertising versus traditional host read, there are a few different channels for creative. Sounds Profitable recently published an article saying 51% of agencies Mark quality of ad creative, as the most important factor when choosing podcast partners locked on is available in programmatic. But that's going to be your nosebleed seats, right? That is going to be the last available unit in our waterfall of ads. Right. So the priority levels, first, our internal host read live reads, you know, and then it continues to go down from there from our premium ad partners, like megaphone that will serve digital ad insertion into our network, all the way down the waterfall to programmatic. And even if you buy our network programmatically, that does not guarantee you have the opportunity to run on our network. So I think when advertisers are looking at programmatic, it has to be a very small piece of the pie of how they will tap into podcasting. If you just want to be on podcasting, you want some data points, it's available, it's there. But it's not premium podcast advertising. That's not why advertisers should be coming to podcasts to advertise locked on does an incredible job. It's one of the things I'm most proud of here is our creative and how we've worked with brands to develop creative that really holistically integrates their creative into our shows for our listeners in a very authentic way.

Matt Cundill  28:08  
So I know you know the Miami market. And it was just a few days ago that Lionel Messi signs a big contract in front of people who there's there's not even a game going on. I mean, is soccer, something you're going to be looking at at the network?

Bryan Goldmark  28:24  
Soccer is something that we have talked about, I think the most important factor when locked on considers a new channel is its appeal or opportunity to stay local. That continues to be our driving factor is local. We are the number one local sports Podcast Network, and we will continue to hold that position. I've talked about golf, I'm a big golfer. How do we how do we produce a podcast around golf but there's no sense of local to golf, soccer as MLS continues to explode onto the scene in the last few years. I think that there could be an opportunity there. It's definitely something that we've discussed. And I'd love to I think that there's I think there's demand from both the listener and the advertiser with interest in soccer. Messi certainly brings a bit of a wow factor to MLS for the first time in a while,

Matt Cundill  29:22  
well, I'm not going to put any pressure on you or the company to you know, open up a European division and start to cash in on all the popularity of those champions league teams. But has anybody talks about that?

Bryan Goldmark  29:35  
Yes, and no, I think that David Locke would definitely be a little bit more in tune with what's going on from production concepts than myself. Candidly, I try to keep my head very focused on improving our brand partnerships, improving our product, the quality of our ad capabilities, our revenue channels, and I leave the creative To the creative minds at work, predominantly, David Locke our founder and our channel managers and as well as Carl Weinstein, our COO and Kylie young are head of operations, who's been a part of the network for since the beginning. So it's a team effort. When we come up with things like that

Matt Cundill  30:17  
very kind and diplomatic response, all you had to say with, that's not my department. As we look towards Denver, and Podcast Movement is coming up, what are some of the things that are going through your mind that you really want answers to? Is its monetization? Is it going to be technological? What's the one thing that may keep you up a little bit at night that you're saying, I hope I get the answer to that in Denver?

Bryan Goldmark  30:43  
I think that there's a couple of trends that I've been paying attention to the most, you know, first is ad recovery. I think that we've all been closely tracking the recovery of the ad market. We've seen digital audio come back in I know I saw bas local advertising forecasts predicted the ad recovery to take up until 2027. With Auto and technology not recovering until 2025. I think that we're already seeing a resurgence in the ad market, you know, things like horizon forming a dedicated podcast division or group M's of forecasting digital ad revenue growing 10% in 2023. I'm feeling pretty bullish on the opportunities ahead for the ad industry. When you get into Podcast Movement, and you have an opportunity to engage with other publishers hear how things are going for them what trends that they've seen, Thomas van cousy has always been an incredible resource. I've worked with him. I know Thomas Mann koozie, since my days at CBS, it's it's interesting when you talk with other podcasters and other publishers to hear what they're seeing, at the same time having the opportunity to connect with brands, agencies and advertisers to hear what they're looking for and what they want to see in the next year or two from the podcast landscape. I think one of the other big trends that I've seen that will be very interesting, and I think, possibly palpable at Podcast Movement is the changes that we've seen from some of the biggest podcast publishers as it relates to local sports coverage. Some of those publishers have cut back significantly on their local sports podcast coverage were locked on has doubled down on local. So it'll be interesting to see where sports continues to fit in. I know that podcast sports was recently the overtook news as the number one revenue category in podcasting. So it's just an interesting trend to see where sports is right now. And, you know, I'm pretty excited about the opportunity to go into Podcast Movement as the number one local sports Podcast Network.

Matt Cundill  32:59  
So you see the numbers. And you know, every city's reputation when it comes to sports, what's the one market in the US that you could tell me has so much sports activity, I would be floored or surprised to know that that city is punching above its weight when it comes to sports.

Bryan Goldmark  33:17  
The demand for local sports. Minnesota is another one. I think when you look at our low our city model, there's your answer, right? We lean into the markets that have the highest demand for local sports content, the most rabid fan base. Vegas is also an interesting one for my perspective, just because they keep stealing all of our San Francisco teams, that market continues to grow with new sports teams. I think that they were just making a play at a new NHL team in Vegas as well. Sorry, what was it? Maybe Baseball, baseball MLB they were looking to add a team so it's it's crazy vague what Vegas is doing investing in stadiums and arenas and so but I think Minnesota and Cleveland are sleepers when it comes to the most diehard sports fans. Atlanta as well is a really good one.

Matt Cundill  34:17  
Brian, looking forward to seeing you again a Podcast Movement and carry on anybody who wants to get involved with locked on and possibly become a podcast and work with you all the informations in the show notes of this episode.

Bryan Goldmark  34:28  
I appreciate you having me man. I'm really looking forward to seeing you next month.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  34:31  
The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Chloe evolve Lane social media by Aidan Glassey another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com