Mac Prichard: Find Your Dream Job

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast... Starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Every once in a while I bring someone on the show who might be able to help you out. Think back to some of the people we've met on the show like Amber DeLaGarza, who's a productivity specialist, and Suzy Parker, who helped us get organized in the throes of the pandemic. Today, I'd like you to meet Mac Pritchard. I met Matt back in 2016 at Podcast Movement in Chicago. He resides in Portland, Oregon, and is the host of a podcast called find your dream job. Not long after I met him, I sent him some audio and asked him about my job situation that I was in back in 2016, which was looking for work in an industry that was clearly in decline. With so much turbulence in radio in both Canada and the United States, I brought in an expert in job search. If you've been restructured, dismembered, dislocated, or my new favorite term, reimagined out of your job, this episode will be helpful. And if it is not something you think you need today, bookmark it for future use. If you think this can help a former colleague or friend, please share it with them. And now Mack Pritchard joins me from Portland, Oregon, where the conversation is clearly underway.

Mac Prichard  1:25  
Good and I know we got to get going. But I do just want to give you kudos for just your knowledge of the podcasting world hearing you talk to Ariel and and Steve. I mean, you're you clearly know this field, we're in very, very well. So. And I think when we met, we were both starting. So you've learned a lot in the last eight years. Yeah. And you know what? And we have started, by the way, okay.

Matt Cundill  1:50  
I think I learned that because I watched you, and a lot of people around me at that first conference in Chicago. And I said, Wait a second. There's a guy in a Portland, who talks about jobs and finding your dream job. And it's a show, and it's a thing. And we don't know it exists, but it's going to solve problems. And so these were the kinds of things that really wowed me. And I think I wrote down about 10 different podcasts. I had no idea existed. But I said, Oh, this is interesting. People are talking about this stuff. Yeah,

Mac Prichard  2:22  
we've been doing it now, since you and I first met in Chicago, which was 2015. And we've had 4 million downloads in the years that have followed. So we're now on the Apple charts, the show is find your dream job. And if you look in the United States, we're always in the careers chart, usually in the top 20 or 30.

Matt Cundill  2:43  
What came first? Was it Mac's List? Or was it the podcast?

Mac Prichard  2:48  
It was Mac's List. And I'm in Portland, Oregon. As you know, I run a regional job board. And our revenue comes from the sale of job postings to employers in Oregon and Washington. And what the employers are paying for is the community that we created around these job postings, because we get about 80,000 visitors a month to the website and our different social channels. And the people who come are looking at the postings, they're interested in jobs. But they keep coming back in part because the great quality of the jobs but also because we provide lots of free information about how to look for work. And people who have good jobs or skills or invest time in learning how to look for work, not only have shorter and easier job searches, Matt, they make better candidates for our paying customers. And so it's a winning combination. And the podcast is a huge part of that. 

Matt Cundill  3:42  
 And so how did the decision come about to do a podcast and was the original intention to extend the community.

Mac Prichard  3:51  
The decision came from as part of our marketing program, our content marketing program. At that time, when you and I met back in 2015, we had a website with a blog. And we were producing articles several times a week we had a weekly newsletter. We were active on the social channels, especially Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn. But people learn in different ways. Some people like to read some people like to go to events, and we did events as well. But some people learn by listening. And so we wanted to meet our community where it was at and the podcast was part of that. I have to confess, I came to this work after a career in communications. I worked for elected officials, state agencies and nonprofits typically as a communications director or a spokesperson. And for 15 years until last year, I ran my own public relations firm. So I had good communication skills. And I always wanted to have a radio show, Matt. So the podcast allowed me to do that as well. Tell

Matt Cundill  4:52  
me a little bit about the people who do work on your show.

Mac Prichard  4:56  
We have a team and we have a sound engineer. He's been Stay in Pittsburgh. As I mentioned, I'm in Portland, Oregon. And he joins me for every recording Matt Pirillo. And then he does the editing afterwards, we always check in after each recording, to talk about what's going to go and what's going to stay. Our show is short, just 25 minutes. And it's it's just a one on one interview program. Susan Thornton Hough, who works for me remotely. She's in the Midwest in Indiana. She schedules our guests, and then handles our newsletter. And she and I will talk weekly about who we're going to invite on, we have very specific goals for the kinds of guests we want. And we have a six page single spaced booking policy that we've developed over the years that guides our work, we get pitched a lot. And I'm grateful for that. We mostly say no, we try to focus on the people we want to have on the show. And then Lisa gesslin, Barry Anderson is our part time marketing specialist. And she handles all of our social, and Susan does the newsletter.

Matt Cundill  6:00  
And so tell me about the decision to go do Podcast Movement, it was in Chicago in 2016, the place where you and I first met, and you just started your show, what did you take away from that conference?

Mac Prichard  6:12  
I think everyone when they get into podcasting thinks they've got to monetize their show right away, because they're looking for yardsticks of success. And I think one of the lessons I took from that conference was to think about why I'm doing the show and how we're going to measure our success. And it's not about ad dollars for us. I mean, there are shows that do that. But in the end, it's about three things. And I couldn't have said this as succinctly in 2016 after the conference, but that event started me on the path of figuring this out. But for us, it's it's about establishing our company as a credible authority on job search and hiring. Podcast lets us do that. It's about attracting people to our website, because ultimately, the advertisers are paying for eyeballs. So the more people you can come get to come to your website, the better. It was also a way to connect with our clients and with other experts in the field, as well as serve our community. Today, about a quarter of our guests every year, it's a weekly interview show. Everybody who's on the show is a career expert, but about a quarter of our guests come from organizations that advertise with us. They're hiring managers, recruiters, and they can speak knowledgeably about the nuts and bolts of job search. And all of those factors help support our overall business goals. And I think going to Podcast Movement, not only in 2016 in Chicago, but later conferences have helped me get clear about those outcomes, and is a big reason why we didn't experience spawn fade.

Matt Cundill  7:46  
So it was stressed to me early on the show was Portland based about Portland jobs in Portland, until it really wasn't because I think you discovered that you had an audience that was national, and global. And shortly after, by the way, you had me on your show to to answer a question, which I'll address in just a second. But when did you recognize or was it just through the stats that you had a show that really extended beyond the Pacific Northwest?

Mac Prichard  8:12  
Our audience was outside of the Pacific Northwest from the start, I don't remember the exact percentages in the beginning. But today, about 90% of our downloads are outside of Oregon and Washington, about 30% are outside the United States. And we struggled with this in the beginning because we our regional job board our customers are in Oregon and Washington and the job seekers they want to reach even in this post pandemic world of remote workers still largely in the Pacific Northwest. So what do you do with the show produced by a regional job board that is active in two states, it's attracting a national audience, the US and people across the world. It's turned out to be an asset for us because we've doubled down on our regional focus in a couple of ways largely through our booking Matt. We do 52 interviews a year, to be on the show, you got to be a career expert. You got to be able to speak knowledgeably about the nuts and bolts of job search. That's the price of admission. But there are lots of people in the two states where we do business that can do that. And they are just as knowledgeable as someone in New York or San Francisco or London. And we do have people from those places on the show too. But half of our interview slots go to people in the region. And as I mentioned a quarter are with clients. So while we're serving a national and even a global audience, our booking and other business practices support our regional business goals. And again, I think this is something it took us a while to figure out but it's been an important lesson.

Matt Cundill  9:47  
And how long was it or maybe it's been there all along and I didn't know that you did work in Eugene and Vancouver, Washington and other places in the Pacific Northwest. Did you take what you had in Portland and expand it into the was area's, or was it always there?

Mac Prichard  10:02  
It was always there, we did make a conscious decision to grow our business in Seattle in 2018. We hadn't been that strong there were stronger. Now, it takes a long time to build those kinds of networks, but we made a conscious choice to do it. I should also say about the advice on the show. The reason it does attract people from outside the Pacific Northwest is because job search advice is universal, it will work anywhere, because the principles are fundamental. And we can talk about that. But it really comes down to three things. One is know the job you want, know what you offer. And the third thing is know where you want to go. And those sounds like simple steps, but then figuring out those answers is hard work. And so they are themes that our guests return to again, and again, and our listeners tell us are important ideas to master. And, again, they are ideas that will work anywhere. And I think that's a huge reason for our national and global audience.

Matt Cundill  11:07  
And one of the other things that's fairly universal is, you know, some of the stats that you put out, the things that affect the people in the northwest and in the United States also affect people in Canada and Germany, such as you know, 80% of jobs aren't posted, you know. And so where are these jobs? Well,

Mac Prichard  11:24  
is often called the hidden job market. These are the jobs that are filled by word of mouth. And I would encourage your listeners to reflect on two things. One, what's the best job you've ever had? And I'm guessing it probably came through a referral. And then I know many of your listeners have done their share of hiring and think about the best employees you've found. And you've enjoyed working with and have done a great job. They've often come through referrals to now I run a job board, I see great value in job postings. And so you should look at job postings. But people often ask me, Why aren't these jobs posted? It's because hiring managers want to reduce risk. And one of the ways to do it is to rely on referrals. And that's why jobs aren't posted. So

Matt Cundill  12:11  
I appeared on your show in 2016. The biggest takeaway from the answers that you gave were transferable skills, because I was leaving radio and I said, well, and I couldn't identify transferable skills. And so there's a lot of people right now going through reductions in radio, it seems to be an ongoing thing. What are transferable skills for somebody who is in radio who might not identify it and probably not putting it down on their resume.

Mac Prichard  12:39  
The skills that you use as a radio reporter, or disc jockey are directly transferable to a number of jobs. I saw this earlier in my career. As I mentioned, I worked in communications in government. And I remember, I was a communications director or a spokesperson for public agencies. It was very common for people in those years to move from radio into a communications job and government today, I think there are more opportunities in marketing and content creation. Some people made that switch really easily, Matt and others struggled or never made it at all, I think of two former radio reporters, I knew both talented news people. One ended up as the director of communications for a big state agency. And the way he approached his interview was he went out and he talked to people who had made the switch other radio or television or newspaper reporters, asked them about the objections they had to overcome in order to persuade a hiring manager that they could do the job. And he listened hard took notes, asked for feedback about how he was going to present himself. And in other words, he did his homework. And he had not only got the job, but he had a great career. I can think of another fellow good news reporter for a top five radio station in Portland. He showed up in his interview, and he didn't do any preparation, just said, Well, here's who I am. And here's what I've done. And he didn't know how to talk about his transferable skills. So I think if there's one shortcut to doing this, if you know the job you want, you're in radio today. And you know where you want to go find people who have made that job and sit down, don't ask them for a job or to get you an interview. Just ask them, how they did it, what barriers they had to address, what worked, what didn't work, what concerns employers had about their skills, and listen hard. And in addition to doing the homework, prepare before you go in for an interview, that makes just all the difference.

Matt Cundill  14:39  
So back when I was on your show, I kind of listened to what you said at the very end. And I think at the time it was it was been forced ag who suggested Well, you know, you're halfway to podcasting that coming from radio. And then you also suggested content creation. And remember, this is 2016. And he said, You know, there's a lot of companies looking for people who can create content and you know how to do audio, therefore, you saw where it was going. But do you know today is that just massively expanded today with maybe it's the first place radio, people should be looking for a career outside of radio?

Mac Prichard  15:15  
Yes, I think you should look for opportunities that are going to allow you to use your writing and speaking and management skills. And I challenge you to any listener to get specific about the job you want. What you want to avoid, whatever your occupation is saying, I'm keeping my options open. You want to be able to say to someone, I'm transitioning out of radio, and I'm interested in this opportunity, or these two or three specific opportunities. So I think I'd like to work for a digital marketing agency that is in the food and beverage industry, or I want to be a spokesperson for a public agency, or I'd like to run a communications program for a nonprofit. I don't know what the answer is. But my experience and talking to 1000s of job seekers over the years, Matt is everybody's carrying around two or three ideas in our heads. And many of us and I was this way earlier in my career, are reluctant to share those ideas, because we think Well, that'll never happen. I don't know how to do that, oh, people might laugh at me. I don't know what is stopping people from doing that. But the more specific you can be when you're talking to others about your job search. And the clearer you can be about the job you want, the easier you make it for people to help you. And it also makes your search easier because once you identify either the job you want, or the two or three you want to explore, then you can treat your job search like a research project, and go out and talk to people who have that job, or talk to employers who offer those positions. transcription

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Matt Cundill  17:23  
for anybody who's been in the radio business where a broadcast business for a long period of time, I find they're lacking three things, once they've been let go or restructured. I always thought you should ever Well, in fact, it was Tom Lycus, who suggested you got to have a website. And I made that mistake. Anyways, I got my website, Matt campbell.com very quickly after I was let go, but I still see this one today. And I need you to sort of speak to the importance of it. I know it's like a like, Oh duh, of course you should have this, but a LinkedIn page and a resume. So there are people who get like on their LinkedIn is either not up to date, or they don't have one. And then the question about resumes I want to ask is, have they changed much in the last 10 years?

Mac Prichard  18:05  
You need a LinkedIn page, because remember, everybody here who's listening has probably done their share of hiring. What do you do when somebody applies for a job, you google them. So what's going to pop up, and LinkedIn has great Google juice. And even if you have a bare bones LinkedIn page, which you shouldn't, that's probably going to be the first or second hit when somebody searches for you. So invest the time in building a good LinkedIn page. You get your own website page isn't it's not required, but it's going to help you a lot and doing a simple portfolio page that lays out what you've done, maybe show some work samples is going to help. If you have a weak online presence, and you want to work in communications, or marketing, or advertising, or sales, which are common transitions for people from radio, and you don't have a good online presence, that's going to be a huge barrier. So fix that resume, you need to have a good summary of what you've done. Don't sweat about the length one or two pages is fine. If you're an older person like me, you only have to go back about time 65 I'm self employed. So I can say that you only have to go back about 15 years, what should inform both your LinkedIn page and your resume as well as any simple online portfolio you might have? Is what you want to do next and what you offer. So I don't want people to overthink it, but get clarity again about what your goal is, what is the job you want? And where are the kinds of places you want to work as you make that transition out of radio. And make sure that your LinkedIn page and other online platforms show that you are the person who can do that.

Matt Cundill  19:50  
In the last 10 years, what has been the biggest change when it comes to finding a job.

Mac Prichard  19:56  
It's never been easier to find openings. We have these huge aggregators of job postings. These are all five sites LinkedIn and deed, monster still out there. So you can find 10s of 1000s of jobs. But that's the bad news too. Because if all you're doing is replying to postings, you're gonna spend all day looking at the computer all day grinding out applications. And you're going to be one of those people who's quoted in the news story. And I say this respectfully, I don't understand what's happening, I sent out 500 resumes, and I haven't gotten a single call. Well, the reason that's happening is because the employers getting hundreds, even sometimes 1000s of applications, and yours is going to get lost in the stack. So that's the biggest change. The answer to that challenge is a strategy that is timeless, it worked a generation ago, it works today, it's again, getting clarity about what you want. And then focusing on the employers that offer those opportunities. And stepping away from the computer and going out and talking to people. Now you should look at job boards, I'm very proud, again, of the value of mine offers. There are other great sites out there. But depending on where you are in your career, you probably shouldn't be spending more than 30 to 50% of your time on line. The rest of that time, you should be out going to networking events, having informational interviews over coffee, because again, people hire people they know like or trust or referred to them by people they know like or trust. That doesn't mean you won't get a job by applying online, but you increase the odds of getting your next job faster and easier by going out and talking with people and doing it in a strategic thoughtful way.

Matt Cundill  21:38  
So I know somebody who's just graduated from university, and as headed out to look for work, and they spent a year doing the job boards, sending out as much as possible, getting very little response. And then when they did get a response, not much of a call back and no reaction. And my summation was very similar to yours. And I said when it came to the interview, the person interviewing you either was worried you were going to replace them, or there was no job there to begin with something along those lines, I think. I think there's a lot of tire kickers, when it comes to employers, let's put something out. Let's see who shows up and that sort of thing. And I said, and this was the advice I gave, we have to lean into networking. And so networking is complicated you by the way, and within the last few months, you've had an episode talking about networking and how it is. But networking was something that was really foreign to me when it came to looking for a job because I was never looking for a job for 25 years. But very simply what is networking,

Mac Prichard  22:38  
networking is creating and leveraging the relationships you have, and doing it in a strategic way in support of your job search. So networking is about asking people for help. But it's also about giving to others without any expectation, getting anything in return. On a tactical level, the way networking works in job searches, you're not going into a function room at the airport Holiday Inn and passing out cards. That's not networking, it's about reaching out to people, and asking them for advice and insights and help. And to do it effectively. There's got to be a reason why you want to meet with someone, you don't want to just get together for coffee or pick someone's brain. There's a reason you're asking for the meeting. And if you're not clear about that, then you need to think about it before you send the email or the text. But if you're specific about what you want, people will help you. And when you network. In a job search, you might be asking for an introduction to someone at an employer where you'd like to learn more about what's involved. You might be asking someone who has the kind of job you want, how they got there, and what challenges that they have to overcome. Those are examples of asking people for help. But it's not only about asking, man, it's about given. So when people ask you for help, you've got to step up and be of service. And good networkers do that and, and networking is why I'm in the job board business because I I went through two long periods of unemployment once in my 20s once in my 30s. The second time after I had this fancy degree from Harvard, I thought I would always be able to get a job. And what I learned from those periods of unemployment is you got to be in touch with your network and you got to serve your network and the way I did it was sharing job postings. And I did that for almost a decade without asking for anything in return. And after I'd started my public relations business, and I had employees and I was paying someone to send out the job postings. That's when I turned Mac's list into a business. And that was almost 15 years ago, but it came out of being of service to others and service remains a central value for us at X list. What

Matt Cundill  24:49  
about cold calls, either by telephone or sending cold emails, unsolicited emails? How should they be done? What's the Ask inside there?

Mac Prichard  24:59  
Well, the Ask should be specific. And what matters is quality, not quantity. You don't want to send out 1000 emails to people you don't know saying, if you hear anything, let me know, because I'm doing a job search. I think you should always try to get a introduction to someone or be able to, to mention a name, get a referral. And again, you have to know why you want to meet with someone. What is the reason for the meeting? And if you're not sure, as I mentioned a moment ago, rethink it. Because somebody who gets a cold email that doesn't have a clear ask, is going to think, what does this person want? I'm not sure I can help them. Do they want to get together for half an hour? I'm not sure I have half an hour to help someone answer this question. So they're either going to ignore it, or they're going to say no, I find that when people make requests for, say, an informational interview, you know, first try to get an introduction. That's the gold standard, get somebody to say, Hey, I think you should meet with my friend, Matt. He's making the transition from radio to digital marketing. And I think you would enjoy meeting him. And I know you would have a lot of good advice for him. Can I connect the two of you? And usually people will say yes, because they think oh, you know, my friend is asking me to meet with this guy, Matt, who knows what he wants. And I think I can be of help. The second way to do it is to get a referral. You can say to someone I'd like to meet so and so can I use your name, and mentioned that both in the subject line and the email, but have a clear reason why you want that meeting, you can do a cold email, and you can have success with it. But you have to have a clear reason why you want to meet with that person that makes them think, oh, I can be of help. And they're clear about what they want. Like, could we get together for 20 minutes at your office? I'm available on these dates. And this is the reason why I'd like to talk to you. That's much easier to say yes to then, hey, could we get together for coffee, so I could pick your brain because I'm doing a job search? That sounds like a lot of work. That's a big reason why those emails often don't get a response. So job search

Matt Cundill  27:03  
is really at the forefront of AI. And I'm going to tell you why. And this is because companies are using AI to filter out applicants, but applicants are using AI to write applications. And so now we've got robots versus robots trying to figure each other out. What's the job applicant to do?

Mac Prichard  27:22  
Use AI to create a crummy first draft and to get ideas. But you again, quality is what matters in a job search, not quantity, you shouldn't measure success by the number of resumes you send out every week, you should send out fewer better applications. AI is a great tool for helping you say take a job posting from a place that you've identified that you want to work. And it's the perfect job because you've done the homework to get clear about your job search goal. And you can ask AI by feeding in the job posting into a tool and providing your resume as well give me a cover letter that you got to pay attention to the prompts. As you know, I know you use AI all the time, Matt, to create a custom either cover letter or resume. But you got to make it your own. So you just can't copy and paste whatever AI chat GPD gives you and send it off, that won't work. And you're not using your time effectively. Employers are using AI to create job postings and interview questions. But the good ones, the smart ones, again, are using it as a first draft as a source of ideas. They're not just copying and pasting it. And there are what are called applicant tracking systems, or ATS is that look at resumes when they come in and do organize and rank them. Most employee they're used largely by big companies. Most employers are smaller organizations and real people really are reading your material. But I talk to HR people, recruiters all the time, and they can spot a AI generated cover letter and resume that hasn't been edited. And those just go straight to the no pile. So don't do that.

Matt Cundill  29:04  
Same goes for writing your podcast show notes. Everyone. Yeah. You have a background in PR. And why is it that the PR people come with the most tools and the best tools to market podcasts?

Mac Prichard  29:19  
Do you think that so

Matt Cundill  29:20  
I do I really do. My sudden Lauren Purcell at tech media, and she is just chock full of ideas. And what's a PR person's job is to get something out there. What are unknown podcasts with the PR people? Do they get the podcast out there?

Mac Prichard  29:35  
Yeah, I think if you come up through communications, public relations, I also worked in politics. And I do sales as well because I run my own company. Those are all jobs that require you to to understand who you want to reach and what matters to them what problems they have, and how to present yourself as somebody who can help solve those problems and along the way you learn these about these channels and techniques, whether it's social platforms, how to write, how to make persuasive pitches that are going to help you accomplish those goals. And once a marketer always the marketer, so that's a great transferable skill,

Matt Cundill  30:16  
whether you're in podcasting or PR, do you have anything special planned for episode 500?

Mac Prichard  30:22  
I don't. When we had our 100th episode, we rented a theater in Northeast Portland. And we had an audience of 75, we had a band, the fellow who does our music, and I hired a comedy writer who worked with us to put together a show with a game show all centered around job search and looking for work. And one of the local news stations showed up and did a live remote. And it was quite an experience. So that was our hundreds. So that's a pretty high bar. 500 will be here before you know it. What are you going to do? You are for 11 I

Matt Cundill  30:59  
think you're gonna be for 12. We still have about a year and change the plan before we get there. But you know, again, I think a live event is always a good thing to do. But I'm so comfortable in the studio recording these things. It's tough to get me out. And I'm in Winnipeg. We can't make everybody fly to Winnipeg can we

Mac Prichard  31:18  
know but believe me getting up on a stage in front of almost 100 people. I was really outside of my comfort zone. But it worked very well. So I recommend it.

Matt Cundill  31:30  
Mac when I first started the show, I said there's no possible way I can work this guy on to a podcast about broadcasts but no, it happened and I knew it would one day.

Mac Prichard  31:39  
Well Could I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, man. And congratulations on the success of your show. As we were talking about I don't know if you caught it or not listening to your episodes. You are so expert about podcasting, we both started at the same time. And I'm just impressed by the depth of your knowledge and when I listen to you talk to your peers and radio. You clearly are expert in that as well. So you are bilingual and podcasting and broadcasting.

Matt Cundill  32:07  
Thanks. That's the highest compliment. Is that what I believe that was the goal? You've accomplished

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  32:12  
it kudos sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Taylor McLean social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at Sound Off Podcast.com