Sue Haas: Fast Forward To Video

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Sound Off Podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Sue Haas is the president and COO of Nlogic. And if you download this show in Canada, you know that they are a supporter of this podcast, we love Nlogic for their ratings data. But as you're about to hear, there's so much more to it. Last time, Sue and I talked about how she just come over from Blue Ant Media, and now she's completed her first year Nlogic, this is gonna give me a chance to find out how things went, and what we can look forward to in the world of media metrics, data and data strategy. Sue Haas joins me from Toronto. Sue, how are you?

Sue Haas  0:46  
 Hi, Matt. I'm good. Thanks.

Matt Cundill  0:48  
How was your first year at Nlogic?

Sue Haas  0:50  
It was a whirlwind. And it's hard to believe that it's been a year, I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. But my feeling is optimism, I feel energized, I feel really positive. So I would say good A plus.

Matt Cundill  1:08  
As a leader, you're coming into the very top position in a company. So this is more of for anybody who does take over in a position like you're in? How do you approach the first year, a lot of people will come in and they'll make wholesale changes from day one, and others like to watch and observe, what do you do?

Speaker 1  1:26  
I was more on the observational side. If we take those two economies, and I'm starting now it's been a year, it's also budget season in the spring, we're on a broadcast fiscal, so there will be more changes into my second year. Looking back now, I was less intimidated than maybe I thought I would be in the role. You just have to jump in and go for it and embrace the chaos and embrace the unknown. And something that Neil, the CEO of Numeris, I talked about a bit as we work on a lot of sort of fundamental changes to the business is being comfortable with only knowing you know, 50% of what you're talking about. And that makes me comfortable him saying that and him an I discussing that. And I also think important for a lot of leaders, you can't make fundamental change and meaningful change if you're just working within the parameters of what you really know, well, because that's not change. So I would say once I had that philosophy, where I'm not going to know everything I'm talking about and doing and I started to get caught. It's still uncomfortable sometimes for sure. But embracing that mentality more is made it enjoyable and you know, less anxiety for sure.

Matt Cundill  2:37  
I don't know how many times the word came up last time we got together and did this. But the most off phrase or words that we use was multi-platform. So how much have you incorporated multi-platform into Nlogic? Or how much does it come up in meetings into what you do over the last 365 days?

Speaker 1  2:56  
I would say it's in 90% of what I do a lot of the business for me from my level in my job. It's around 90% of the topics of all the meetings, I'm in the discussions I'm in, I've slowly started to pick up my PR presence and you'll see more of that as time goes on now that I'm feeling a lot more confident. That's the message that I'm putting out. That's not to say that 90% of in logics business, absolutely not, I would say it's more of 20-15 20%. But it's where we're seeing the vision. So like linear broadcast, TV and radio is central to our business and will continue to be and it's a part of a cross platform, multi platform story. It's we're not looking at it in isolation any longer. And it's not to decrease its relevance. It's just to show it as a key part of a broader story that goes across screens and across audio. 

Matt Cundill  3:51  
I'm glad you mentioned that. So for anybody who's just in TV or just in radio, and then they hear multi-platform, I'm sure the first thing they hear is, oh, I've got a whole lot more work to do now. But if you're just in radio, what does it mean from from Nlogic side? You're gonna go multi-platform? What else does that include? For anybody who might be in terrestrial broadcast?

Speaker 1  4:10  
And the video side I know you said radio, but just to stick with the video side is is their contribution is a piece of a bigger puzzle. So although you may only be operating a channel operator, like net network TV in Canada, it's going to fit into a cross platform story if you're not doing most of them. Also, let's be honest, the most broadcasters are involved in streaming in some capacity and I would say most radio broadcasters as well. But it doesn't mean that you have to operate the technology of a multi platform ecosystem from your own company or really understand the ins and outs of it and you know, a little selfishly Nlogic what are the things I'm saying is, you know, we don't produce and distribute content Nlogic we don't sell or buy advertising it Nlogic because we see we are broadcast clients and our ad agency kind of starting to build tools, analytical tools and products internally in house because they're trying to solve. They're trying to see insights into things that they don't know. And we're saying, you know, you don't have to know how to do that we actually prefer you don't do that. And you invest your research dollars with us. And we'll solve that problem for you. So to answer your question, if you're a radio and you only do radio, you're a piece of a bigger puzzle, you're still a piece of that landscape that's important. And we can help connect you to the cross platform, world through through numbers, we can plug your radio standalone number to a cross platform picture.

Matt Cundill  5:33  
And so that sort of dovetails well into into video planner, which you unleashed, I guess, a few months ago, one of the companies that jumped on board right away was Chorus. And I think of what would be a company that this would be perfect for this would be absolutely perfect, for Chorus, because I see they've got Stack TV, they've got 

Sue Haas  5:52  
Pluto...

Matt Cundill  5:53  
And Pluto, and they've got channels all over the place. Got some terrestrial channels, that could be global news, they've also got apps. So walk me through a little bit about video planner and how it solves problems and feel free to use Chorus. I know a lot of people from course, do listen to this podcast.

Speaker 1  6:11  
Yeah, sounds good. And this is gonna prep me because I'm actually in Vancouver Monday and Tuesday this week at the bsab conference my second year and where I am going to present the planner on stage. So it's helping me get ready for that. I've actually never demoed it myself. Usually the product team does. So should be interesting. But yeah, the video planner came out. So it was just over a year ago. So maybe 14 months ago, the end logic team, we have an innovation team in house. And there was a team tasked to look at the VAM a video audience measurement dataset that was relatively new and market and see if they could pull out any product ideas, commercial ideas that we could sell for money out of that data set. And as the team was looking at the data, and they'd been showing it to clients, as is one of the first questions they always got asked was, where's the reach and frequency calculator, because in the TAM TV audience data or radio audience data, they can do reach and frequency within those as a standalone. But when you get to VAM, there wasn't the capability to do exclusive reach and frequency cross platform built into VAM on its own. So the team decided to build this calculator, this tool. And it just started internally as a, as I said, an innovation project. So about 12 months later, we are no commercial and market we did as you know, sign on just said chorus we've signed on IPG media brands is the first agency as well. And for Chorus as an example they've run. I don't even know the exact number right now, but at least 22 real world scenarios through the planner, and they were what's considered our alpha partner. So they they helped us launch this product and worked on some real early stage r&d with it to get it right. From a broadcaster point of view, we also have partners for will be having partners from the agency point of view and advertiser as well because it is meant for all of those clients segments. But in the case of Chorus we would run as a managed service, these scenarios like camp real campaign scenarios that they want to run advertising scenarios across, as you said, stack and Pluto and Global TV app, and their linear TV, of course, and they saw strong results with it, which is why they signed on as an early partner. And it helps helps them sell incremental impressions outside of linear onto their own streaming platforms, they're able to tell a story where you want to hit this pay advertiser, you want to hit this specific demographic, we know you're getting them say on History TV, guess what you can also get them on Pluto, you can also get them on stack, we can show you that. And you don't have to buy that digital inventory outside. Of Chorus you can stay stay with us and spend more of your budget with us. And obviously, that's a story that Chorus likes and we hope live other clients will like as well.

Matt Cundill  9:01  
I love that going on that multi platform thing and trying to incorporate ways to do it. I mean, we have a problem in podcasting, we don't know how to count the video side of it. You have to deal with YouTube, YouTube has its own way of counting things. And you know, it's not the same way as you know, an IED download which you need to listen to a minute of the show. So we're doing both here. And I just ask is that when I give you the stats and the downloads for the for the show that you don't take the numbers and jam them together? Because a YouTube view is just somebody touching play and a download is somebody who listened for at least a minute. And I don't know how much you would know about this. Maybe I have to speak to somebody in your innovation department. But when it comes to counting, is it pretty simple to count, we're just counting impressions, or do we have to sort of aggregate in different ways between the multi platforms in order to count?

Speaker 1  9:49  
 The foundation for the video planner, as I said is based on VAM. So it's based on the methodology for how video audience measurement that dataset works, which is the TV parts coming from TAM, sorry. This is something I learned to also my first year is all the acronyms RAM TAM, VAM.

Matt Cundill  10:05  
I think by the last year when we talked, you were talking about all those things. And you had to stop the meeting a few times, just to say, remind me what that is. 

Speaker 1  10:13  
Yeah, that's a learning curve. For sure. It's, but yes, so there is the PPM as I think you are well aware, the metered service for the TV part. That's how that gets measured. And on the digital side, there the streaming side, there's our tracking on the router and your home. So it's measuring household consumption. And people ask, like, Is it tracking, you know, my banking website and things like that it's not, it's a very whitelisted list of media based website. So anything that's self defined, or we Numeris defines as media, it will track that through your internet connection. So and it's by device, so any mobile phone, any laptop, any computer connected to the Wi Fi in the home, it, it tracks that, as far as if you logged on to YouTube, we don't do impressions, it's much. It's just general tuning.

Matt Cundill  11:00  
Tell me a little bit about shifting the company, because I've noticed and we've talked about because we do talk outside of just doing these podcasts. Nlogic uses a sort of supply data. And then we would interpret data, which is a bit of a rear view, hey, this happened. And this is where you're at. But now, it says it right in the word planner, you know, we're looking ahead, we're looking at things like inventory. We're looking ahead and ways ways to plan, why was it important for Nlogic to make that shift.

Speaker 1  11:28  
Nlogic, as you said, has historically been very, their main job was to take insights primarily from numerous the parent company and put them out as insights into the market, which is great. And of course, we still do that. But we wanted to have more actionable insights, something that can actually turn into eventually an outcome and ROI for our clients. And insights alone, just the data sets on their own are just not good enough anymore, we have to get them farther along the campaign cycle. So that is what we decided to do. And also for for planning, we saw it was a real fit in the as we move more into cross platform, there are tools out there. And I maybe mentioned this before, but I don't think we talked about the planner much last year, it was barely a thing last year. But there's a handful of other tools specific in the Canadian market, few from agency side, like we have a consultant on the team who went out and did quite a bit of market research. And everyone has a little way of doing planning within their company. But you'd be surprised a lot of it's just cutting and pasting results like campaign results from from YouTube or from meta from their linear side, mashing it together and spreadsheets into PowerPoint. It's all these hack together ways of trying to get to campaign planning and measurement. And they're like, yes, please help solve this for us. And we bring the TV part we bring the currency of the TV part, I know VAM isn't considered currency, but the the TAM that feeds to VAM  is, and we feel like that is a real unique selling point that we have. And also what I've learned in the years, there's, you hear it all the time, it's a ton of fragmentation, because every digital player measures their own audience, obviously, that leads to a lot of distrust, and I haven't I didn't notice it as much before I came to numerous because, you know, we're just pulling you to number and that's the YouTube number I didn't really sort of embarrassed to say, but you didn't really question it too much. Why not like the number, but because everyone who who activates on YouTube uses that number you don't really think of of it differently. But when you're when you want to look at a piece of content, not just on YouTube, but also on TV and also on a streaming platform, for example, then all of a sudden, you want something centralized, and you want a company that you feel is maybe third party neutral, you don't want to hear what's my cross platform number from Google, if they were able to see the linear number and see the Amazon number. And they're gonna tell you the whole list the full story, you don't want to hear that. I'm assuming I shouldn't maybe say that. But you don't want to you want to hear from someone neutral third party. And that's something that's unique, I think for Numeris and Nlogic in the market, because we don't have skin in the game in the sense of, we're not biased, like we're not owned by a big broadcast, or we're not owned by a platform. We are data software insights company, and we want to help our clients do better business. So...

Matt Cundill  14:24  
It's funny, you mentioned that because, you know, Spotify just decided they just don't need IAB certified metrics when it comes to providing their ads or providing their downloads and reporting their data. They decided they want to do it themselves. And you just mentioned a little bit that that could lead to distrust. And then it's something that the podcast business is going to have to figure out over the next little while about how much they trust Spotify, when it comes to you know, that form of measurement.

Sue Haas  14:49  
Yeah, I see both sides of it. So you have to be able to provide insights that lead to improved business result, because I can understand if like, oh, Thanks Nlogic for providing us these insights. And I look at your numbers and it's not helping me drive my business a the numbers are making my business look worse than maybe the internal analytics you're getting from the platform. But you're not, you're not helping drive a sales story, and you're not helping the business move along, I can see that complaints, I can see why you wouldn't want to invest in us if we're not improving your situation. So that's where I've really tried to focus the last year on results being results driven with our clients really understanding what their challenges are, and trying to help them and, and if reading and interpreting the numbers that we're putting out, if they can't find a story within it, can we help you find a business story like a sales story that helps focus you in a better light, and that can help them with the planner to like, you can pull different demos and pull different we have a part in it called buying segments. So this came from I don't know if you're familiar with the common industry segments, but these are segments that were put together by think TV, and Brodix and Numeris, and Chorus and their behavioral targeting. So similar to you could be like a fashionista or a sports enthusiast. So instead of just buying on the adults 18 Plus or adults 25-54 You can buy on these against these behavioral segments. And it's a more of a with a Digital's is bought and sold but you can kind of test out different buying segments to see what's telling a better story for your, for your inventory. So if it's if you're not getting a big part, if you use your planning tool, it's not showing you a lot of inventory to segment, maybe try another segment, like try to get it so that you're you're looking good.

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Matt Cundill  17:04  
I don't think anybody's actually asking this question. But I will say that people are probably saying, Oh, what are you doing for audio. And I'm here to say that most of what is done for audio, whether it's like ad tracking, or anything like that, it's already available, and it's already been done. You're just reflecting the rush to video. And there's been a huge rush to video for just about everything. We've seen the explosion of TikTok and reels, Facebook abandoned podcasting, and they pushed in on on video, multi-platform When we talk about multi platform, we're really talking about the different ways that video gets distributed. Am I right in saying that most of the conversations are really about harnessing video and how it's distributed and counting it?

Sue Haas  17:47  
For Nlogic. Yes, when we say cross platform, it means video, video and all its its formats. And in any way you can watch and listen to it. The cross media, I mean small distinction, I would say when we say cross media that would include your audio. We don't work in print, as you know, we don't work in at home or anything like that. So it's really just audio video for us. For the planner, I want to say this too, if the market comes to us, like if our radio broadcaster clients and agencies say Hey, can you include audio in the planning tool, we can do that it is an item on our roadmap. And we're waiting to have it triggered by by one of our clients asking us to prioritize and move it forward. So if someone comes to us and say, Hey, I would love to see what this audience looks like, across linear TV, the pure play streamers, social video and radio, we can add radio in there, it just we need there to be a market demand for that. And I think on the advertising side, it's less common, it's a less common need to plan an ad campaign across video plus radio, it just doesn't come up as much in my experience, but an ad planner by would have to tell you for sure. But if there is a need, we can definitely start to prioritize and put that into the roadmap for our video planning tool.

Matt Cundill  19:09  
Couple of the fun webinars that have passed through on your website in the last little while include and I know the pandemic ended in May of 2023. It's over 

Sue Haas  19:20  
Declared Over Yeah...

Matt Cundill  19:21  
Yeah, but just but you still got some data that shows things about our shopping habits. And you know, I will preface is, you know, we we get a ratings book in and we would look at the data and we say okay, that's we have to remember that is a snapshot of a particular time when the data was collected. And we're two or three months down the road from there who knows where we're at now, but that is a snapshot of where it's at. But you're very good at NLogic at taking those snapshots and then presenting them to people and then finding a little bit of trends as well. So the pandemic and shopping a lot of people stop talking about the pandemic but yet it's still a thing with with audience and we can see a lot of little changes that have happened in the last little while. 

Sue Haas  19:58  
You're referring to a blog posts we put up coming out of our RTS data, which is consumer insights data. So a little plug to that we do have a consumer insights product called sales pro that uses RTS. And this is a sample size. I think it's 30 or 40,000. People who this is survey based information on behavior, and it's really, really strong. Admittedly, I don't think as a company use it to its full potential. So that is something that I'd love to dive into and see what kind of products we can pull out of it and make it stronger. But yes, so the pandemic info came out of that survey, I don't remember the it was the follow of the spraying. There's two of them. I don't remember which one, but it was talking about the surge in online shopping, and talking about specific categories that were better or worse on that.

Matt Cundill  20:48  
So when you look back at that, and by the way, you do not have to refer to the study for that to answer this next question. 

Sue Haas  20:53  
Okay. Okay. Thanks. So I don't know all that well... 

Matt Cundill  20:55  
But you're the perfect person to answer this question. Do you think the pandemic accelerated what was going to happen anyway? 

Sue Haas  21:02  
In media? 

Matt Cundill  21:03  
Yeah. And media and buying habits, shopping habits? Did it just accelerate it? Or did it change it?

Sue Haas  21:09  
I think it accelerated, I think there would have been that shift to online a huge shift to a bigger shift to online shopping, it was inevitable. And it sped it up. And then once people invested in having better online shops, and moving their business to Shopify, and for smaller players, and just like staffing up on the bigger econ businesses, they were able to sustain, although there was some businesses, I mean, I've just mentioned Shopify, and that's, you know, a Canadian superstar. And thinking that they ended up I don't remember when, but had to do quite a few layoffs. So some people over invested, being very optimistic with the pandemic, and then had to scale back through teams, because they weren't able to meet those financial goals that they had set are predicted. But I would think we are generally a society that operates online. I mean, I wish I wish some ways of work, just seeing even how my, I feel like I work my kids into every interview that I do, but seeing how they, you know, interact with each other, and most of their social activity is done online. And to be honest, most of it is done on Tik Tok, and Snapchat, and I have 1013 year old. And I think about it all the time when I think about media and how we have to have media and buying behavior, as you're saying. And despite what we may think, like, oh, you get older and you change your habits. You too, but you don't lose that exposure that you had earlier on in your life. And I think that's very hard for our demographic to understand. Because we we didn't really have the will we certainly didn't have the internet the way that they have it and social media, we didn't have it at all, I didn't have it growing up. So you can't really compare that I'm not impacted as that as a midlife because I didn't have that exposed to me 1015. And my point is, I think what I hear this a lot in, in panels and things is that oh, as you get older, your switch to big screen and beyond on the glass when you're older. Yes, of course you you'll have some more money, disposable income, you'll pay for more services, you might subscribe to linear, but you're still going to be heavily heavily influenced and involved I think in the social behaviors that you grew up with, and your social media behaviors, whatever those platforms are, I'm not saying this platforms are gonna stay the same. But you're going to have a different experience. I think that was just a really long tangent I went on but...

Matt Cundill  23:26  
But a good tangent.

Speaker 1  23:27  
 I heard this at a at a talk a few weeks ago, if you don't have people in your strategy team and your senior level teams that are 30 and under, you're missing the boat, you're not getting a perspective that's going to drive the economy and drive media and the next decades because it is so fundamentally different. And I said I noticed that I noticed how they interact with media how they watch TV, which sometimes is they're always you know, two screens and commenting on it through their friends on social and it's just a different way of experiencing it that I think the upper echelons of broadcasting and agencies are always considering

Matt Cundill  24:05  
Are you double screened when you are watching television? 

Sue Haas  24:08  
Sometimes I am I am not the worst for this I do have friends though who fold or double screen always. I actually do get quite absorbed in TV shows and movies. So I don't I like to stay focus. It's a It's actually one of my key ways of relaxing at the end of the day. Jump into another world for an hour or so. So no, I don't do it as much unless I'm not scrolling on socials if I have a few like quick work emails to finish up to text my mom something like that I'll do but I'm generally not Mindlessly scrolling and watching TV. No.

Matt Cundill  24:41  
So I have a couple of double box experiences a sports generally stuff the whistle goes during a hockey game. I might say something definitely football. When football is on. I'll make some comments. And the Bachelor. I mean, there's a whole Bachelor, chit chat that goes on cracking jokes and saying things and it's it's quite  humorous, so, there are some fun double box experiences. And those are primarily done on x. Because I think that's really one of the only real time social platforms that's out there.

Sue Haas  25:09  
Are you a gamer? Do you play video games? 

Matt Cundill  25:12  
I do not.

Sue Haas  25:12  
Me neither. But that's another. I think I just missed the boat by a few years on that because my younger brother and his group is very into it. But that's another thing. I don't think we're considering enough. It's just gamification and media and social and gaming, and how impactful they're going to be to younger generations. 

Matt Cundill  25:33  
And twitch. 

Sue Haas  25:34  
Yeah, for sure. Live. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  25:37  
What's the innovation team working on these days, if you can talk about that? 

Speaker 1  25:41  
Sure, this is some pretty specific things I'll throw at you. But in the video planner, which I keep talking about it, we I have narrowed down things to this planning tool, because there's we have a lot of our existing products in market that drive, you know, huge chunk majority of the business. So I can't have a lot of stuff on the net new exciting projects. But we do, we did prioritize this one because we really want it to make it successful in market and, and the pipeline looks great on it. So I have high hopes. But one of the caveats to VAM, as the foundational data is that is not national. And well aware of that this is I had to be saving next week in Vancouver, and numerous will be working. They are working on a national coverage. But it's it's still always out timelines not announced yet. So the Nlogic team is modeling out a national audience using machine learning AI data science, in advance of the official roll up from numerous. So they're working on that. And I would say that's one of our top priorities through the innovation team right now requires a lot of work from data science expertise, which is not a background that really anyone in you might be surprised, but it's not a skill set that and logic has hired in the past. So it's an opportunity and yet a hole that we're filling. And I said this actually we hosted an event on the 17th of April in Toronto was the first event. Of course, for me, it was literally on the day of my anniversary, I talked to you about this last week, and we were chatting. And I said if you if you have kids in university age are getting there, I recommend you encourage them to go into data science, because everyone's hiring for this type of role right now, in every business, not just media. It's everywhere. So yeah, so the national coverage for the planner, a modeling that is a big project that the team is working on and another area, and with the planner that we aren't able to craft yet that we're trying to model out is for us, we're really focused, probably not a surprise coming from a linear background on on premium streaming. So that broadcast are enabled streaming, which they like to be called, in addition to be VOD. So broadcasts are enabled streaming, plus, you know, Amazon, Netflix, Disney, etc. And as they go to what we would call like a mixed subscription ad based and they have AD tears been announced, like, like Amazon in February launched their ads in Canada, the planning tool is supposed to show you where should you put your ad money to run pre roll mid roll ads. And if say it's Netflix, and you're just going by watch time or share of of audience, it's going to show a huge percentage because a lot of people watch Netflix in Canada, but it's going to be deceiving because not all that watch time is ad supported. Because a lot of people aren't in the ad tier. So we need to be able to show what percentage is actually you actually buy ads on. So that's something we're trying to model out as well with the team and no one has that answer right now the individual platforms No, but that's not shared and with a central place, like in logic, so we're working on national national representation with the planner, because we're only Franco Quebec, Franco and Ontario right now, that does however, make up 60% of Canada proportionally. But of course, we want to have local representation, and then the what we're calling the ad factor. So to be able to simulate percentage of ad supported inventory on these hybrid platforms.

Matt Cundill  29:02  
Well, Sue, I wish you luck at BCA B and anytime that you're rolling out your video ad planner, I think you did very well as the rehearsal by the way, comedians use podcasts for rehearsing their bits. And it's great to know that you're doing the same thing here. 

Sue Haas  29:17  
Well, thank you, Matt. Thanks for having me back.

Matt Cundill  29:20  
By the way, did we do video last time?

Sue Haas  29:22  
No, we didn't actually we talked about it. And I was talking about content strategies on YouTube and tick tock and things from my previous job. And you said, Well, maybe next year, we'll record you and I was like, Okay, and here it is. I'm dressed a little bit nicer today, just in case people see me in addition to hearing me.

Matt Cundill  29:42  
Ya well, we talk a lot about the jump into video and yet here we are. We're doing this now on video. So it's first time that you and I've gotten together and done this on video and of course the video technology has accelerated to the point where here we are in high definition.

Sue Haas  29:54  
 I will hopefully get you a few extra video impressions on this podcast. 

Matt Cundill  29:58  
So thanks so much for doing this really appreciate you taking the time and good luck in year two at Nlogic. 

Sue Haas  30:03  
Thanks Matt.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  30:04  
The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Serminski, edited by Chloe Edmond Lane social media by Aidan Glassey another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com