Swell AI Transcript: HTPTOE1472MelissaHobson.mp3

00:00 SPEAKER_01 When I started podcasting, I just got into it. I loved every second of it. And I really got into science communication. I really started looking into different ways to improve and different ways to really make this my livelihood. Still working on that. But I love talking to other people who are into science communication. And I had the pleasure of talking to Melissa Hobson on this episode to interview her about how she is writing for marine conservation and what that entails, what her life has been like, what her career has been like so far and what it continues to be. And she just drops a lot of value on this episode. And I know you are going to love it. So let's start the show. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. And this is a podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And this episode is going to be talking about speaking up for the blue, speaking up for the ocean. And when I first started this podcast, the name of the podcast was Speak Up for Blue, which is the name of my company. But I had to switch it because I went to I needed ocean in the tagline or in the title. So I went to speak up for the ocean blue. And now it's just how to protect the ocean because I wanted to make sure that people knew what this podcast was really about, not just having some kind of fancy name that I thought was sounded pretty cool. I wanted to want people to know what it's about. But you know, since I got in this, since I got into podcasting and writing and doing videos and all that stuff, for those of you who have been on the part or who have been listening to this podcast for a long time, you know what this is all about. You know how my story how it all came about. I just love talking to other people who are involved in science communication and conservation communication. It's something that's really important to me. I feel like we need to share more with each other and more resources, more information and help each other out as much as possible. And Melissa Hobson, who is a writer for Marine Conservation, is something that someone who does that she she consults. She she writes. She is just an amazing, an amazing person to have on the podcast. We got into her whole career because I want to dive deep into what she does and why it's so important for her to do it and then how she does it. Because, you know, I know a lot of writers out there that work for, you know, Forbes and National Geographic and all those. And they're not easy publications to get a part of to talk to the masses, not just scientists and in, you know, journal articles, peer reviewed journals where only scientists and other managers may or may not see, depending on their subscription level. But in publications that are pretty much free to the to the world, anybody can read them. So I wanted to have Melissa on this episode so you can get a little taste of what it's like to have a career in science communication, because a lot of people have reached out to find out how this can work. And to be honest, I'm here to help you if you ever need a consulting call, if you want to sit down with a with a mentor like myself to find out how you can sort of build your career in science communication, feel free to reach out to me at how to protect the ocean. Just DM me at how to protect the ocean on Instagram. So that's at how to protect the ocean. I would love to do a call. It will be we can do a discovery call, but it could be a program where you can meet once a week or once a month to discuss your plans to build the science communication career. Feel free to reach out and we can talk about a plan that we can put you on to see what fits best for you. So if you're interested in science communication, hit me up on Instagram at how to protect the ocean. And for now, let's listen to Melissa Hobson talking about her career as a writer for marine conservation. Here's Melissa Hobson. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Melissa, welcome to How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about ocean writing and science communication? Hi, I absolutely am. Yes. Wonderful. I am very excited about this because I love science communication. Everybody knows that the listeners to this podcast. You're an avid listener to the podcast, which is amazing. But I do it through audio and video. I'm I don't find myself a great writer. I've never really been a great writer. And I always love when I meet writers because I just have such a respect for it because there's there's there's definitely an art to it as well as a technique to it. Everybody has their own their own art and their own art form and their own sort of voice to it. And I really love it when you can get the voice out from people who who write really well. And I know you do as well. So I'm excited to talk to you about sort of what writing is like in twenty twenty three, especially for the ocean and science communication, because the world has changed so often probably since you first picked up a pen and worked and went here to type or maybe even a typewriter or even went to a computer to do this. You know, I just I'm looking forward to kind of diving into that and also kind of a lot of people like science communication. They want to have a career in that. And so we're going to talk a little bit about that through your experience, what it's like to have a career in ocean writing from your perspective. So I'm super excited for this. But before we get into all that fun stuff, can you just let us know and the audience

05:21 SPEAKER_00 know who you are and what you do? Yeah, absolutely. So hi, my name is Melissa Hobson from the Ocean Writer Limited and the name of the business kind of gives it away. And obviously you have in your intro as well. But yeah, I write about the ocean essentially is is what I do, which is a pretty fun job

05:40 SPEAKER_01 to have. That's awesome. Now, I know you have a background in in English literature and write in writing. How did you get interested or where did you develop the passion for for oceans in

05:54 SPEAKER_00 general? Yeah. So I was actually I guess it's probably accurate to say quite a late bloomer in terms of ocean things. I grew up in a landlocked town in the middle of the UK. And sure, I love the beach, but I wasn't really a water baby by any means. You know, we'd go for a seaside holiday and that was about it. I was never one of those kids that you can't get out of the ocean like a lot of your listeners, I'm sure, will have grown up as mermaids pretty much. But when I was about 19 or 20, I was on holiday in Australia and my travel agent basically said to me, well, you can't go to Cairns and not learn to scuba dive because, you know, you're right on the doorstep of the Great Barrier Reef. And I wasn't too convinced, but she must have been a good salesperson because she signed me up to the course and off I went. And yeah, three days, no, two days in the pool in the classroom before we set off. And I absolutely hated every second of it. Really? So yeah, doing the skills and you're getting water up your nose and in your eyes and, you know, you're spending long, hot afternoons in a classroom trying to learn data and remember the different ways you might die if you get your equipment wrong. And I was just thinking, oh God, I just need to get to the end of this week and then I never need to do this again. And yeah, and then we had three days to finish the course. We did a three day live aboard and actually went out to the barrier reef and, you know, just spent a few days diving from there.

07:40 SPEAKER_01 So doing our four open water dives to actually certify and then a few more extra after that. And I just, as soon as I got in the ocean and, you know, saw the coral reefs and the life and I saw a turtle sleeping on my first night dive and sharks kind of silhouetted above me. And it just, you know, that switch that I didn't know I had was just flipped. And that was it really. Now, you know, did you have the writing background at that point?

08:09 SPEAKER_00 Like during that vacation? So that was actually while I was still at university. So I was studying literature at the time, but was still deciding what I wanted to do with my life. I hadn't actually started kind of full time work at that point. But it was actually quite a few years later when my love and passion for an interest in the ocean actually combined with the writing side of things.

08:39 SPEAKER_01 So, yeah, at that point I was on university vacation from, you know, reading a load of books basically and had no idea that this holiday would completely change my whole career as well. So, yeah, that's interesting. So you had that spark at that time where you're just like, I'm in love with the ocean because of all these great experiences that I'm able to do on probably one of the best places to dive in the world. And then you then you come home from that vacation, you finish off your degree.

09:09 SPEAKER_00 Tell us the story of when, you know, the two passions for writing and ocean kind of came together, as you mentioned. Yeah, so they very much edged together over time. I remember going back home from that holiday and thinking that it was a real shame that I was going back to another landlocked city. I was at university in Bristol, which, you know, again, not a coastal kind of scuba diving friendly place. And I thought, oh, that's a shame, because I'd really love to do that again. But I guess, you know, probably not going to happen. And then over the years went from, you know, going to a holiday and seeing a dive shop and nipping in and, you know, doing a quick dive to planning my holidays around diving. And then eventually I was working for a PR agency at that time, doing quite a lot in the travel space as well as bits of charity PR as well. And in the travel sector, a lot of the time PR professionals or organisations are helping journalists to get away, to experience different places, to then write up a review for their paper magazine, whatever it is. And I kind of had a little bit of a light bulb moment. I was sending a journalist off to Croatia to write a double page spread about all the things that she was going to do there. And I was like, I love writing within the PR sector. And by that point, I've been in PR for quite a few years. Writing was always my strength as well. But I didn't have anything published because in PR you're behind the scenes, right? So you're sending out press releases, which are going to get topped and tailed and edited. And then, you know, the journalist's name goes on top. And even if you're doing articles, it's often ghostwritten or whatever, and, you know, your name doesn't end up there. But I was like, you know, I am a writer and I thought maybe I could try and tie the two together. So I contacted the editor of Scuba, one of the Scuba magazines here in the UK, and basically said to him, you know, I'd really love to write for you. And I'd read a load of back issues, back to back, to try and, you know, soak up everything about the way they wrote their pieces. And because I didn't have any writing work to show him with my name on it, I actually wrote an example article going, you know, if you ever wanted to work together, this is the kind of thing that I could write. And it was about the previous holiday that I'd been on, a dive holiday, where one of the girls on our boat actually got bent. So, yeah, it was, she was absolutely fine, thankfully, but it was quite, quite a dramatic trip. Yeah, she was on the boat, not in a good way. And it was a very rough sea in, you know, southeastern Africa. And it was all quite, there was quite a lot going on to cover in an article, which I guess, thankfully, as I say, she was fine. But it gave me a really good story to write about. And I sent that as part of my pitch and he actually published it. It went on the front cover of the magazine, which was just insane when I picked up a copy. And yeah, and then he commissioned me for another article and I worked with him for quite a few years just on the side. So I was still doing PR full time and then just started doing writing around the edges and then eventually kind of burnt out from London life and decided I wanted to do something completely different and quit my job and ended up moving to Mozambique. And I spent most of 2018 out there with Marine Megafauna Foundation. So obviously, you know, Andrea. So I was out there working, working with the team there and helping them with their comms.

13:23 SPEAKER_01 And they train me up a little bit on some of the research side of things as well. So I got to pretend that I'm a scientist a little bit. And that was amazing. And that was kind of the tipping point, I guess, where I properly started to focus on ocean comms full time. I mean, it's such a great opportunities. So you didn't know that you would be on the cover of that Scuba Diving magazine, did you?

13:53 SPEAKER_00 No, I didn't know. I didn't know until I was in the news agent and I was looking for the issue. And I saw it and then I picked it up and I saw that my story was one of the leads and I just lost my mind a little bit. I think I told the person that I was buying the magazine from, like, this is my article. And, you know, it's time in the morning. They don't they don't care. They're like, OK, just pay and thank you. But yeah, that was that was amazing.

14:30 SPEAKER_01 So, yeah, very, very exciting start. But I guess, too, you know, as sort of someone in PR who who commissions a lot of other authors, you know, like you said, gross right or so forth to put out articles, you can kind of, you know, you kind of had and obviously your background in ocean literature, you had a great sense of what would probably catch people's eye, what would be an enticing article, like a headline. So you had all the structure based on the education and just the experience of seeing how other articles are written. And I'm sure you were still writing at that time. So it makes sense that, you know, when you when you put it in, when you did the pitch and you sent it in that you would get, you know, the cover. But what a surprise. What a great way to launch your career about writing in the about writing for the ocean and then and then moving to the Marine Mega Foundation. First of all, it's a big move, you know, moving from London to Mozambique. That's a huge I would say taking a taking a risk in life like to move from a completely different culture, from a different continent. Yeah, a bit of a jump.

15:37 SPEAKER_00 How is that trend like, first of all, I guess, how is the transition from a geographic sense in a cultural sense? So actually for me, I clicked really well with it. I think that's not necessarily the case for everyone. And working remotely in, you know, working in a remote town like that certainly has many, many challenges, a lot of which we did face there. I think when I left, I was so I'd been in London for about a decade doing the rap race thing. And I was so done with it and I really needed to switch things up and do something completely different. Actually, when I handed in my notice, I thought that I didn't want to do comms anymore. I didn't have the opportunity with MMF lined up at that point. That kind of happened while I was working my notice. So, again, actually, that was kind of interesting that I was like, oh, no, I do. I'm not tired of comms. I was just tired of various other elements of it. But actually, as soon as I got to Tofu, which is the town that I was based in down in Mozambique, I just loved it. It's a pretty small town, but, you know, there's diving, there's surfing. So there are quite a lot of tourists coming through. And it was just great. It was the type of place where you get to know everyone very quickly because it's so small. You're always bumping into people. And it was almost a nice way of slowing down and learning a lot of patience. You know, if a storm blew out the Internet and your generator had run out, that was it. You know, you can't get frustrated about it because that's the way it is.

17:33 SPEAKER_01 So definitely taught me to always have everything fully charged. And yeah, and just try to roll with the punches when they happen, because you do get, you know, flat tires and Internet out and storms and whatever the issue might be that you've got to just get on with. But I absolutely loved my time there. I tried to go back and visit when I can. And it was, yeah, it was just brilliant for me. And so how did you get in touch? You said, you know, you got in touch with MMF during, you know, as you were putting in your resignation.

18:14 SPEAKER_00 How did that relationship kind of come about? Yeah, so it was actually probably about two years beforehand. I had written a piece about, and I can't remember the exact article. But it was something about why sharks are cool and all the coolest things that sharks do. And I spoke to various shark scientists and was like, tell me why sharks are cool. And that was, you know, essentially the crux of it. One of the scientists that I spoke to there was Simon Pearce, who founded MMF with Andrea. And I think after I'd done that interview, I'd followed him on social media. And he always kind of sprung to mind because he's got his amazing photos and his awful dad puns. Yes. Simon, if you're listening, I'm sorry, but you know it's true. So he'd kind of, yeah, he'd kind of stuck out as someone in the sector. And I thought for ages about whether to get in touch with him, because I was looking for opportunities in the marine conservation sector. And I could only seem to find either the option of go back to school and retrain to get a degree in the sciences, which I didn't particularly want to do, definitely couldn't afford to do. It didn't seem like a good route for me. You know, I'm very much not a scientist. I love to talk about it and learn about it, but I'm not a data person. I'm not a math person. And the other option seemed to be, you know, these volunteerism opportunities where you're paying sometimes thousands of pounds a week to go and, you know, help quote unquote a certain project where often, you know, if you're really digging into it, are the funds staying in the local community? How much help are you? You know, how much impact are you actually having? So I emailed Simon and I said, look, I bet you get a gazillion emails every week of people saying, how do I do what you do? How do I get into conservation? Which I know he does. But I kind of explained my quandary and said, you know, is it just that there isn't anything in the middle? You know, at the time, I didn't realize what I know now, which is that all these organizations, they've got marine biologists coming out of their ears, but they need writers, social media people, accountants, you know, all of those other professionals that make up a business. They are really, you know, really, really need those kind of people to help them. So I sent this email anyway, thought Simon wouldn't even reply because he's very busy and important and all that kind of thing. And he actually came back saying, oh, you know, gave me some advice and said all of this about, you know, actually, people really need comms support. And then he said, did you get in touch with me because I have my own charity? And I was like, wait, what do you? And it turned out that they'd been looking for a comms person for some time to come out and help them on a pro bono basis. And he said, would you be interested? So we had a bit more of a chat. I sent my CV. I did some interviews with, you know, the CEO and that kind of thing.

21:50 SPEAKER_01 And then before I knew it, I was on a plane out to Mozambique. And yeah, there we go. So doing this on a pro bono basis, that's one thing. Traveling all that way to work with an organization. I mean, obviously, you're getting a great opportunity to do this type of work. But doing it from a pro bono basis, that's a huge sacrifice to move and live in a completely different place and not get a wage.

22:19 SPEAKER_00 Did you were you concerned about that at all? I wouldn't say I was concerned about it because I had been saving and getting all my ducks in a row to make sure that it was something that I could feasibly do. But it was something I was very aware of. And it was something that I was thinking about when I was there, you know, keeping a budget, keeping on top of costs, not just frittering away money left, right and center on surf lessons or, you know, whatever, like making sure that I could afford to live there for as long as I could. And I was doing again, little bits of writing there. So, you know, selling an article here and there to give me a bit of spending money and make those savings go further. But yeah, absolutely.

23:07 SPEAKER_01 It's something that you need to think about realistically if you are going to make a move like that. Just making sure you've thought of your different options, I think is a sensible approach. Yeah, for sure. I mean, because I think a lot of people get into that situation. They don't know, especially if they're an early career scientist or an early career conservationist or even writer science communication person. You know, these opportunities are great and they're amazing to be a part of. But then it's like, how can you support yourself? And so you need to prep a little bit, as you did, and make sure you have the finances. Now, you know, when you went down to Mozambique, you know, was the cost of living, you know, the same as being in the UK or was it a little cheaper? Was it fairly affordable?

23:54 SPEAKER_00 Like, could you stretch those savings a little longer because it was in Mozambique? Yeah, absolutely. So I'd been living in London, which, you know, super expensive. So it was definitely a lot more affordable. It does depend as well. And I think various places, if you're going away to do fieldwork, particularly if it's somewhere like tofu, which is a bit of a tourist town, you know, we could go to the market and buy matapa, which is like the local dish. It's kind of a cassava leaf stew and you have it with rice and it's, you know, a few cents for your lunch. It's it's super, super cheap. But at the same time, you know, if you're going to the touristy restaurants where they're doing, I don't know, seafood platters, if you eat seafood or whatever it might be, then those places are going to be more expensive. So, yeah, for me, it was quite easy to manage that budget. And it was, as I say, a lot more affordable than London. But equally, it could have been quite easy to to burn through those savings a lot quicker as well. Oh, yeah, for sure. I can just imagine it all depended on how, like you said, you had to plan it out properly and you had to to make sure you were making sure that you stretched all those savings. So how long did you stay out there? So I went out in the April of 2018 and I was there until I think I came back in about the November was just before Christmas. And I'd had various visa runs back and forth. We had to leave the country pretty much once a month. So there was a few. Once a month. Yeah, it depends on your visa. There are three month single entry visas. So sometimes you can stay in a block. If not, you have to be in and out. And it's a nine hour drive to the capital and then another few hours across the border and back. It's, yeah, a bit of a bit of a path in terms of the border runs.

26:00 SPEAKER_01 So we tried to, if we could make them into a little a little holiday, see some of South Africa. And I managed as well, somehow to do one of my border runs over to Madagascar to see Stella and the team at the whale shark project there as well, which was which was a very cool visa run. When you when you were finished that, you know, obviously you're you're sort of hyped up with writing about the ocean all this time. That's such a great opportunity. At that point, were you like, OK, I got to continue to make a career out of this.

26:34 SPEAKER_00 Where did you go from there? Yeah, so immediately after that, I came back to waitressing back in the UK. So back to Earth with a little bit of a bump. And yeah, I was doing that while I was looking for opportunities within the Marine Conservation comms space. So I was waitressing for a few months. I then ended up going out to the Philippines and working with a small charity out there. Obviously, this was then getting towards, you know, 2019, 2020. We all know what happened back then. And the pandemic brought me crashing back to the UK. And in 2021, I want to say, I went full time freelance. I'd been doing bits and pieces on the side. And so 2021, yeah, went full time and started working with a range of clients, initially in the kind of wider sustainability sector as well. And over time, I've been niching back to marine specific wherever I can. And the writing side of things, not so much of the comms anymore.

27:52 SPEAKER_01 So, yeah. OK, so now there's more writing articles for these different. And now you've you've had articles published, some pretty big publications, Nat Geo, The Guardian, Vice and more. How did you make those connections? Were those from past work in NPR?

28:15 SPEAKER_00 Or did you have to start anew, especially when you're focusing more on the marine environment? Yeah, so I had to start afresh in terms of getting the connections. But I think the real benefit of having a background in PR is that I really understood how the industry worked in terms of working with editors and getting a commission and all those kind of things, because I'd been working from a PR side, pitching stories to freelancers who are then going and having to pitch it and all that kind of thing. So I think having that understanding of the process was really valuable to me because I knew, even though I didn't necessarily know who I needed to go and speak to, I knew how to find those contacts. And I knew, you know, vaguely the best way to try and go about it. I also had a really thick skin because in PR, you're getting rejected and ignored and sometimes yelled at a lot of the time. So you get quite a thick skin. So, you know, it's the same with writing. You send a lot of pitches and a lot of them aren't going to land. You know, you might not even get an acknowledgement sometimes. And I think having that resilience from my career in PR was really helpful because I think when someone's just starting out in writing and they don't have too much understanding of how it all works in the background and, you know, it can be super competitive. It can be so disheartening, right? When you've spent ages on this pitch, you've been reading the magazine to make sure that you really know what they want and which section you're going to pitch to and found the editor and, you know, you've done all this work and then they say no or you don't even hear from them. That can be really, that can be really crushing. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I feel like I've been rejected so many times in PR.

30:18 SPEAKER_01 You know, you're obviously pitching stories all the time to news desks and they're like, oh, no, we don't want that. So I think that helped me keep going without losing motivation. This is an interesting, the pitch is always interesting when you pitch these. Obviously, you said you've put in a lot and you've been rejected a lot and you've been successful with a good number where you can do this on a regular basis. Did you learn through experience, like, you know, what goes into a great pitch? Like, I guess, actually, I answered that and I have a couple of follow ups because I don't want to put too much on your play dot once because I'm very curious about this.

30:58 SPEAKER_00 So when you put your pitch in, did you learn through experience how to put like the more successful one or did you learn from a different way? I mean, absolutely learned from experience. And I'm still learning, you know, every pitch every time, particularly when an editor takes the time to give you feedback, which they they aren't always able to do. But sometimes they might, you know, be able to say to you, well, we couldn't take this pitch because of X, Y, Z. But, you know, they sometimes give you those little nuggets. So, yeah, it definitely is. The more you do it, the more you learn. And I don't think there's going to I don't think there's ever going to be a time when I will have perfected the pitch and I'm not learning anymore.

31:44 SPEAKER_01 I think that's something that, you know, you're always absorbing that knowledge and trying to adapt and adjust. Yeah, I would imagine, especially when you're pitching to different people, even if it's the same company or same organization, it could be a different person who's receiving the pitch and they may have their own preferences and their own biases to the type of information they want to cover. It's interesting as a podcaster, when I when I hear people talk about how to be successful in podcasts, they always say, you know, sometimes it's good to make analogies or create content around, you know, recent events or something that is in the news. And so they'll catch people's eye. Is your is your sort of strategy around something similar?

32:29 SPEAKER_00 You'll talk about emerging technologies or something that's been in the news over time just to kind of get the eye or catch the eye of editors? Absolutely. I mean, at the moment, a lot of the things that I really enjoy writing about is new scientific papers. So ideally, a marine biologist gets in touch with me before a paper is published and I can go to the editor and say, look, this is going to be coming out on this day or week or whatever. It's super exciting because this has happened and this is what it means for global conservation. But because it has that, you know, that newness, it gives it that real hook of why they should publish. But even if it's not something like that, an editor is always going to think, why should I publish this now? You know, there are so many stories, there's so much content. And again, that's something that we used to think about a lot in my kind of PR days is what is the hook? What makes it timely now? As you say, is there an emerging technology?

33:37 SPEAKER_01 Is there something, you know, what's happening on Google Trends? Is there something going on, you know, an environmental conference or whatever it might be? But always asking yourself that why now question is really important. Yeah, I did a training this past week for my day job and it was about storytelling and sort of trying to I guess it's a bit of a sales role. And the one thing that stood out is when you pitch somebody or you get into contact or you try and provide value, it's the questions of trying to answer the question of so what and who cares, you know, about this.

34:16 SPEAKER_00 Do you follow something? Is that like a is that a universal thing in communications? I think so. Yeah, I think the so what and why now are really good questions. There's the inner pitch often or in, you know, if you're writing a press release in your first paragraph, there's the kind of making sure you've covered the who, what, when, where, why. And I think one of the things that I always think about as well for particularly if I'm talking to organisations about stories that they're wanting to share with the media or on their website or whatever it might be, is can you imagine going to the pub, so the bar across the pond and chatting to your friends about whatever this story is? Do they really care? Are they really going to find it interesting or are they going to do that kind of glazed over nod and smile? Because you're talking about something that, you know, internally, it's super exciting in your workplace, but externally, you know, maybe not the most interesting. So does it pass that pub test of, you know, just someone that doesn't know all the ins and outs of what you do, just a regular person going to go, oh, actually, that's that is really interesting. Tell me more about, you know, whatever it is. So trying to come out of your brain a little bit and think about what other people are going to tap into. Yeah, here's a question. Do you evaluate their interest based on how many drinks they've had at the pub? You know what? I once had a client who I can't remember the number now. I think he was saying that the perfect brainstorm is when you've had between one and three pints. So he would organize our meetings to go and come up with some campaign ideas and we'd all get a pint. And once we've gone past, well, for me, it's probably past one pint, but for the boys, it's probably past three or, you know, the heavier drinkers. I'm a bit of a lightweight. Once we got to that point, it was like, OK, it's time. Our ideas are all getting too silly now.

36:30 SPEAKER_01 But it kind of loosens you up a little bit, too, and getting out of your comfort zone. Oh, you know, great idea. Let's try this.

36:37 SPEAKER_00 Yeah, get get things flowing a little bit. Stop feeling a bit, you know, awkward about sharing stuff, but then also rein it in before you're like, and then we could do something utterly ridiculous. Oh, yeah. Five pints down the line. For sure.

36:56 SPEAKER_01 Now, here's a question. You know, I don't know a lot about, you know, the career path you're on, the writing path, especially in today's day. There are a lot of publications out there and they often use, I would imagine, freelance writers to generate content and they pay those those freelance writers. Can you talk about a little, you know, to say rates or anything like that, but talk a little bit about how, and especially for audience members who want to get into that, they like writing as well and they want to write for similar publications. What's the how do you generate revenue as a freelance person and how often did they expect to publish an article on average? Obviously, there's a lot of variables that go into that.

37:39 SPEAKER_00 So you can talk a little bit about that. I just want to know, just get a sense of the feel of what it's all about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess everyone's experience is going to be very different. You know, some people might have regular gigs with certain publications or they might, you know, pitch one person more than others. They might have a good relationship with a certain editor or whatever it might be. Personally, I at the moment have one anchor client, which actually isn't to do anything to do with the ocean, but I do some regular comms projects with Guide Dogs, which is a Seeing Eye Dog charity here in the UK. So I do some regular consultancy with them. And that's, as I say, my kind of anchor client, because I know I have work coming in month to month, different projects. I then also do corporate work. So with ocean based or ocean focused organisations that maybe want help with their messaging. So recently I helped a council that had a ocean initiative, Marine Conservation Initiative, and they knew how they talked about it internally, but there was lots of jargon and that kind of thing going on. And they wanted me to help them work through some and create some messaging. How can we talk about this externally in a way that makes sense and a way that people understanding and care about? I've been doing something else at the moment recently with a research centre that's got an annual report coming out and they need someone to kind of proof and edit it and bring those stories to life. Or, as I say, website copy blogs, articles, that kind of thing. And then I have the editorial stream as well. So that's when I'm going to a particular publication, pitching an editor and saying, OK, so, you know, I've seen the studies coming out. I think it's super interesting for you to cover because of whatever, whatever. And that tends to be a bit more ad hoc, because obviously it depends on me sending those pictures and those pictures getting accepted to be able to write those pieces. So, yeah, for me, having a mix of those kind of slightly different types of writing makes it more sustainable because freelance life can be full of peaks and troughs. So I think diversifying is a good thing to do. And again, you know, different, as you say, different publications can have very different rates. So I might get an article with a really well-paying publication that I would have to do maybe five or six articles elsewhere to get a similar fee. You know, it does really vary quite wildly. And that's for every writer to kind of decide, you know, when they are learning about a magazine and finding out about the rates, is that something that is that they're comfortable working at that fee? And if not, you pitch elsewhere, there's, you know, lots of other places as well that you can try and contact.

41:03 SPEAKER_01 And, yeah, my focus at the moment is trying to build up and strengthen my relationships with different editors, because again, as the more they know you and they know your name, they know you're a good writer. And, you know, as importantly, if not more so, they know you're reliable, you're going to meet the deadline, you're not going to leave them in the lurch and all that kind of thing. So building up those relationships, which hopefully will give me, you know, a better chance of more commissions further in the future as people know that I'm good to work with. For sure. And I think it's also, too, the balancing the work that, you know, well, I guess maybe I should ask this. Is it a balance of the work that, you know, you want to create, you're passionate about and you want to talk about more and the balance of generating and you balance that with generating revenue, you know, for more corporate or consulting kind of positions? Is there a certain one you like? Is it is that a balance or is a lot of the work?

42:07 SPEAKER_00 Have you have you been successful in generating or pitching work where you've been able to balance both and combine them? Yeah, I think I'm at a point now that I am luckily able to combine both of them, you know, the the different streams of work that I do. I do really enjoy all of those types of work.

42:28 SPEAKER_01 I have certainly been in a place in the past when maybe I was doing probably more when I was still doing PR on a freelance basis. It's something that, you know, I've got a lot of experience in and I can do well and I was still working with sustainability and for purpose organisations, so it's still aligned with my ethos. But I don't love PR in the same way that I love writing, you know, it can be a lot more intense and a lot more stressful. Right. So, yeah, there can be a juggle and I think particularly when you're starting out, sometimes those are things that you have to think about. And is it that, you know, you've got a bar job to start with and you're, you know, writing as a side hustle? Or, you know, when I started writing, I had a full time job and I was kind of building up my portfolio as a little hobby around the sides. And I don't think there's anything wrong with, yeah, having that balance and different things, ticking different boxes. Yeah, and let's be honest, I mean, I'm a big advocate of supporting yourself and not having to sacrifice too much financially to do the passions that you want. And I'm a living proof of that. I work nine to five, you know, in software and customer success, and I do this as a side hustle, essentially hoping to do it once one day as a full time gig. But this is my passion. This is allows me to contribute to the ocean conservation world in the way that I see fit. That's the best way I could do it and using my skill set to do it. But I support my family and sort of my life through this full time job at this point. And I agree, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It makes it a little bit more difficult in terms of time management. But if you're truly passionate about something, you're going to do everything you can to continue to continue into this. And it's not an easy thing to do, even just from a mindset perspective. Oftentimes, I talk about, you know, am I failing in my dream of what I've always wanted to do? Is this what I'm doing? And then I look at the impact I've been able to have. And it's a big deal. You know, I'm proud of the work that I've been able to contribute for ocean conservation and help in collaborations and help inspire people. So there's definitely that value base in there. And I think especially first starting out, you would almost have to write Melissa were, you know, trying to build up those relationships and those contacts and those pitches, it's not going to. I'm sure it's very rare where all your pitches at the beginning will be able to land and you'll be able to land some paid gigs. It takes time to build up that network and to build up that success rate and even that reputation of, you know, Melissa, when I see Melissa Hopson, and then I see Melissa Hopson, she's like, she's going to, you know, put in some great work and we've published her work before and we know its quality. We know it gets the clicks that it needs and gets the eyes on on the on the page that we need. And so that's good. So I assume it took you a while, but once you got that, you were able to make that that conversion over to, you know, full time. Right. Is that how you did it?

45:53 SPEAKER_00 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, even now, I still get rejected pitches all the time. You know, it's part of the process.

46:03 SPEAKER_01 And I think one of the things about working in the conservation sector, and I think it's really important what you were saying about being able to support yourself and also have the impact that you want to have. And I think sometimes people assume that there's this magical career where they're going to, you know, earn millions and also have an amazing conservation impact. If anyone knows what that is, then, you know, feel free to give me a call because I haven't found it yet. But, you know, I know some people doing amazing things in the conservation space and doing, you know, really well in their careers and having a huge impact from the research and the conservation that they're doing. And in between, you know, fieldwork seasons, they're coming back home and they're getting another job to try and earn some money again. You know, that is the reality of a lot of conservationists that you do have to try and support yourself in other ways because the money isn't always there. Hopefully that, you know, does change over time, particularly as corporate organizations maybe see the value in supporting conservation causes. But, yeah, I think it's, as you say, really important to support yourself so that you can thrive and have a positive impact. And how you do that is going to vary from person to person. Yeah, for sure. Before I ask you my final couple of questions, you know, we've talked a lot about, you know, the career and sort of how to succeed. What would be your biggest piece of advice for someone starting out in this career path to be on their way to becoming successful?

47:50 SPEAKER_00 What would be the first step that you would recommend they take? Oh, good question. I mean, I guess the first step is realizing that you don't have to be a marine biologist to have an impact in the conservation space. And genuinely, that's something that at one point, you know, when I was sitting there doing my research while I was kind of working my resignation, I didn't know that it was possible to have a career writing about the ocean and working with ocean focused organizations, which is why I really like to talk about what I do, because I find that the more I share what I do and how I got here, people go, Oh, that's what I want to do. I didn't realize that's actually possible, you know. So I think firstly, realizing that whatever your skill set is, whether you're a writer or a graphic designer or an accountant or a social media manager or whatever it is, there is a way that you can have a positive conservation impact. And then from that, thinking about if you do want to move into the conservation sector, what skills do you bring that can really add value to an organization? Again, you know, we kind of mentioned that a lot of these charities are brimming with marine biologists and they're all, you know, fabulous and super talented and we need them. But also they might, you know, desperately need help with their social media and have no idea how to upload a reel or what TikTok is or whatever it might be. So, you know, do you have brilliant photography skills or videography skills that can help them tell their stories in a way that people are going to relate to and engage with? And, you know, obviously my specialism is in the written word, but there are so many different other ways of communicating, you know, look what you're doing with the podcast.

49:51 SPEAKER_01 There's all these different elements and thinking about your own unique skills and how they can add value is something that is going to be really important as you're then going and looking for opportunities. Now, for some fun questions, although I think this has always been fun, all of this, the whole interview. What is in your, from what you've written in sort of in your in your sort of library of writing, what was your favorite article that you've written over the years? Oh, that's a really good question. There's probably a couple that spring to mind. One of them was my first kind of when I first broke in with Nat Geo and started writing for them. That's always going to be, I mean, I still pinch myself when I get commissions with them because how insane is that? That that's something that I'm doing, right? But that first one was definitely, you know, hugely exciting and massively terrifying because obviously I was sending in this draft going, oh, I hope they like it. I also wrote a piece relatively recently, a few months ago for The Guardian. And I went about an hour down the coast from where I'm based here in the UK and met a guy who's doing grassroots conservation work in terms of kelp restoration. And he'd lived in the area his whole life, seen the kelp being lost basically and decided if no one else was going to do something about it, then he would. And I had like a little tour of his garage where he's growing his own kelp that he's replanting and had a great chat to him, which was so inspiring. But one of the really special things about that article was actually after it came out, he'd been fundraising. He had a crowd funder to support his work and he'd raised a few thousand pounds, I think, over the last year or couple of years. And then the article came out on, I think it might have been a Monday, I'm not sure. But about two days later, he messaged me and was like, Mel, it's gone absolutely bonkers. And I checked his crowd funder and another £10,000 in donations had come in in a couple of days just from people, you know, reading the article and hearing about all this amazing stuff he was doing and going, oh, I want to help that. So that was a really special one as well, because it's that nice reminder of what communicating these important projects can really do. You know, telling these stories is so important because that's how people are inspired to help them at the end of the day. And just, you know, sometimes we always try and go beyond awareness. And sometimes that's what's needed. It's just the awareness of specific projects or what people are doing or what these ocean heroes are doing across the world. It's all they need is a voice or a platform where they can put their voice and allow people to make the decision of whether they want to support their project or what work they're doing. And it's nice to see when it's successful like that. That's just amazing. Now, here's a question I like to ask people who are in science communication.

53:27 SPEAKER_00 What is your sort of dream piece to write about at this point in time in your career? Oh, so I guess for me, what I really like to write about, I mentioned that I really enjoy covering new studies. So when a scientist has found out something that we never knew before about a species or something that's going to affect conservation, and I think particularly when that knowledge completely changes what we know about conservation efforts and is, you know, again, going to have a real impact. The amazing thing about the ocean is that there are so many potential stories that could be around the corner, you know, that are like that. But yeah, those type of things and sometimes as well, just those lighthearted, funny stories, right? But I saw one recently that Melissa Cristina Marquez, who writes for Forbes, had written an article called Greenland sharks have what in their butts? And it turns out they have there's like a barnacle living up there or something. And I was like, I mean, you know, it's always nice to have a bit of a light lighthearted piece as well.

54:51 SPEAKER_01 So, yeah, there's too many dream pieces to pick one. Interesting fact. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's always nice when like a piece like that, you're like, well, that's interesting. Why would they have that up their butts and that? But the dream pieces are always are always interesting to think about and to try and put forward. Yeah, this is awesome. This has been so great. I've learned so much just about sort of where the the writing profession for for ocean columns is in today's world. And Melissa, thank you so much for coming on and sharing that and being so transparent and and for the work that you do in the writing that you're able to to create and the publications you're able to work with and get a lot of eyeballs on ocean news and ocean conservation. That's that's a special thing to do, not an easy thing to do. And we really appreciate your dedication and hard work from from our community to yours. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And we'd love to invite you back on to maybe talk some about some of your articles and go deeper into some of those articles from an audio perspective. Absolutely. I'd love that. And it's been so great to chat to you. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa, for joining us on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Really appreciate you coming through and dropping so much value for your career. I think it's such a great way to talk about your career in terms of meandering within and out of conservation, discovering what you love to write about most and why it's so important for you to do. And then talking about pitches and talking about sort of different publications you've been a part of. I just love the fact when people share this kind of information about their career, I think it's important for people to know. I think it's something that we all need to share more and more. And I obviously I'm willing to share. I'm an open book. And Melissa is as well. I'm going to put links to all Melissa's socials and stuff in the show notes so you can check that out. But that's it. If you have any questions or comments on this episode, you can reach out to me on Instagram at how to protect the ocean. And if you want a career in marine science and conservation communication, please feel free to reach out to me. You can always discuss a discovery call or you can always get on a discovery call to a half hour free meeting and then just talk about what you want to do. And then we can put the plan together to see how we can get you to do that. But that's just just at how to protect the ocean on Instagram. I want to thank Melissa Hobson again for joining us on this episode. And I want to thank you for listening. If you know someone who would want to listen to this type of information in this type of episode, feel free to share. It's free to do so. And it helps me out. So I appreciate it. And it grows our audience to listen to marine science and conservation information. So thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lu. And have a great day. We'll talk to you next time. And happy conservation.