Art Of Dating With Relationship Expert And Talk Show Host Jordan Harbinger

I'm Carrie Brett. And this is shot at love. This week is the episode of all episodes. Today's guest is Jordan harbinger. He's an American podcaster radio personality and sought after speaker. He has one of the top 10 podcasts in the world. And in 2018, won the award for best of Apple podcasts. He's a relationship expert who has 11 million monthly downloads. Talk about the real deal. The movie hitch with will Smith was based on his life story, but why I'm such a fan of Jordan is because I can hear his heart on his podcast. When he speaks, you can tell he genuinely cares about others. He believes in giving without games. If you're looking to build relationships or find a relationship, then this episode is for you. When we come back, I will introduce Jordan harbinger for shot at Love's one year anniversary show you won't want to visit. So stay tuned. Jordan harbinger is a former wall street lawyer who learned how to effectively network and build relationships to survive in a competitive industry. Jordan gave up law to do something that he loved podcasting. He started a podcast back in 2006, called the art of the charm, which was pre online dating when no one even knew what podcasting was years and millions of downloads later, he now uses these skills to interview guests on his podcast. The Jordan harbinger show, giving listeners insight into becoming a better version of themselves. Forbes named Jordan. One of the 50 best relationship builders worldwide. Jordan believes your network is your net worth. Not only is Jordan super nice. He's insanely interesting. He speaks five languages and has been kidnapped twice on two different continents. Jordan even gave tours in North Korea for fun. His relationship and interpersonal relationship skills are so sharp. He's one of the best interviewers globally. And it is my honor to welcome him today without further ado, Jordan harbinger, Hey Jordan,

Thanks for having me on quite the intro always make, you know, it's funny, whenever people introduce you, it's always like, wow, that guy sounds really interesting. And then you realize it's you and you're like, yeah,

No, you're, you're very, very interesting. I know we're so grateful for this smart company today. I first want to tell the listeners how I found you. And I was listening to a fellow photographers podcast, Jasmine star. So the Jasmine star show and you were a guest and you started to talk about teaching dating in a bar back in Michigan. And I almost fell over and I was like, you know, probably cleaning my house or doing something. And you just started going off on a tangent about not being able to get into the college and meeting a bar with these random people in the summer. And I'm like, I just started sending Jasmine's episode to basically my, all my close friends. And I'm like, listen to this person. I had no idea that someone like you even existed. And I was so happy because you are my proof of concept. I mean, everyone in Massachusetts just thinks that I'm running around on this Tinder tour, just teaching village women, how to be rock stars online. And I knew there was a need, but I didn't know that someone like you was doing this back in 2005 or six, that was really fascinating to me because it was pre online dating and people needed that information back then it made me keep going that there was an audience for what I had to say about dating and in relationships. Can you tell me and the listeners, how you randomly started teaching dating, and

It started off by first of all, I'm like a recovering attorney, right? And so when I first started, when I was in high school slash I guess middle school, I was the kid who could like, and I'm not saying this to brag. I was just like the kid who couldn't pay attention, I guess you would say so, but what I could do is figure out geometry, you know, 15 minutes before a test. Right. And so that's kind of how I got through school. And I had a lot of really smart friends and things like that. So I worked a lot with them and they taught me how to pass tests and things like that. Then though I got to college and it's like, Oh, everyone's really smart here. I can't just rely on like fake it till you make it kinda kind of stuff. It doesn't work. I started to outwork everyone. Cause I thought, well, at least there's the strategy of just being the hardest worker in the class, you know, that'll always win. Well, then I got to wall street and it was like, well, you know, everyone here is super hardworking and everyone here is also really smart. So you don't have that competitive advantage anymore. And that's when I started really feeling like an imposter, having imposter syndrome and being like, Oh my God, I'm going to get fired. And I remember asking a partner who was never in the office, why he was never in the office. Cause I figured, okay, he works from home. If I work from home, it'll take them longer to figure out that I'm like a knucklehead and don't belong here. And therefore, maybe I won't get fired so fast, that kind of strategy. And he was like, actually I do work from home occasionally, but mostly I am generating business for the firm and I thought, okay, that's interesting. How do you do that? And he's like networking. And I'm like, all right, well, how do I network? And you know, his advice was very non-actionable. It was like, just be cool, man. And I'm thinking like, okay, you know, people don't become lawyers because they're cool. First of all. Um, so if I could just be cool, what I tried that a long time ago, I've been a huge nerd all my life. Right? And so I realized there's no actionable advice here that I was going to get from him. You know, he, he wanted to help and just couldn't. So I started to go back anyway to first principles, which is like, alright, why are some people popular? And others not, why are some folks known, liked, trusted, whatever you want to call it or, or all of the above and some folks not, you know, what's the deal. And so I started studying things like psychology and body language and nonverbal communication. And I was so interested in it and it really felt like I cracked a code and I've been making all these friends and getting invited to all these cool things with like wealthy folks. And I thought like, this is really the key. So I told career services about it because they kept mentioning that we need to know networking for our career, but nobody had, of course ever taught us anything. They were just like network and everyone's like great print up business cards and hand them out, which is not networking. Okay. The career services folks were like, why don't you teach a workshop to the law students about networking? And I said, yeah, okay, happy to do that. Well, no one cared, right? It was a bunch of law students that were like, networking is for old people. I don't care about this. And no one wanted to come to my little workshops except for these three to four women. And I, I remember this very clearly because they were like, Hey, law's an old boys network, big law firms, especially wall street is deaf investment banks. Like they're all just old burrows, old money, you know, guys in pinstripe suits, smoking cigars, where do women fit in? We need to all stick together and to do that, we need networking so that we want to learn it from you. And I thought, Oh, okay. So I started teaching them networking skills, like just basic networking skills, not the BS. Look them in the eye and shake hands that you get when you take a networking class, but like real nonverbal communication skills to keep in touch with people, conversation skills, ways to relate to people, things that I was learning by studying psychology from like spies and like anyone who would teach me the problem was we were in, you know, we're in the law law school, over at Michigan. The law school is like not air conditioned. It's hot as hell in the summer. And half the time, the door to the room we were supposed to be using would be locked. And I was like, you know, this is annoying, right. We're really getting the shaft here. And there's only four women in my little class that come every week. Why don't we just do this at a bar? So we went to a bar and it was so much more fun and interesting. And we would get drinks. And soon as it stopped being a networking class in to me, like dissecting body language of people in the bar and I'd go see these two are on a date and the date's not going well, or these two are on a date, but it's not the first day. Or these two, the guy likes the girl, but the girl doesn't like the guy and the women were like, yeah, I agree with your assessment. But I don't really know why. So I started articulating all of these things and they were like, this is a fun game. Let's do everybody in the whole bar. Right. So we kept doing that over and over and over and over until they started to tell their friends like, Hey, we have this really intense, interesting class that we go to. That's free every Thursday or Tuesday or whatever it was. It's it's been so long. And you know, we dissect people's body language at the bar and it's fascinating. This guy knows all this non-verbal communication stuff. The class balloon from like three, four women to like 12, right. Women only when guys started to see me there. Cause you know, people are out drinking after class, on Thursdays, Tuesdays, whatever days it was. We're like, wait a minute. Why are you here every week? Sometimes twice a week with like a dozen women. What, who are you? You know? And, and even the door guys and the bartenders were like, yeah, what's this guy's deal. Right. So I started to tell people, you know, I'm teaching a networking class, but it's really kind of a dating class for women. And I remember a lot of folks were like dating classroom and yeah, whatever. Right. But then the women were really into it. So the guys started to show up because they're like, Hey, I just want to be in a dating class around me. You know, like I, this, my dad in classes, near women at any excuse possible to do that, I started to become kind of popular and get a reputation for that. And soon it was, wait a minute, I have a question about this. And I go, Oh, okay. I covered that like three weeks ago, you just showed up buddy, listen, you know, I can't be repeating myself every week. So I started recording my talks, my little classes to it, burning them to CD. I had a mini disc player and I record them to a Sony mini desk of banana remembers those. And that would record them and burn them to CDs. And so when guys would come that were new, I would say no questions on the first day, listen to the CD that I crafted here. And then you can ask questions, let's say next week after you've listened to the CD and they're like great deal. And nobody ever brought the dang CDs back, you know, it was so, so annoying. And I found out the reason why after I started asking where my sink and CDs were, people would say, Oh, you know what? I really like it. I'm going to keep it. And I'd be like, not an option. Right. And then they'd go, Oh, well my roommates listening to it. I gave one to my brother and you know, I need another one and I'd say, all right, these are five bucks now. And they'd go, great. I need like eight because I want to give one to my cousin. I want to get, and I'm like, look, they're not for sale. I just needed to pause it. So you bring it back. And then I realized that they were for sale because people just kept taking them. And I was like, fine. They're 20 bucks now. Right. You know, people still said, okay, great. I need, you know, five of them and I'll pay ya. You know, next week when I get here and I'm like, what are you doing with these? And they go, I'm handing them. My cousin, my roommate wants one. My brother wants one. I have one of my car. I have one of my dorm room. And I'm like, okay. So this material is really good and people are using it and they're okay. Coming back and being like, I want more and they're taking this free class, but they're buying the CDs. I have a business idea here. So I started to burn these CDs massively time consuming until one day a friend said, this is not scalable. And I said, I know. And I said, but there's no way to put an MP3 file on the internet. And that was true at that time, there just wasn't, there was no real way to put an MP3 file on the internet that I knew of. And he said, no, I just read this blog. The newest thing it's like for tech dorks, and it's called podcasting. And you could download these talks to your iPod, which was also a brand new device in 2006, basically. Right. And I said, all right, cool. You know, I'll put these on a website and I don't care about podcasting, but people can at least download the files from our website and then they can synchronize it with iTunes. And that's when we started getting like hundreds of downloads from people all over the world. And I thought, okay, this is really, really magical. We expected people to download it from Ann Arbor, Michigan, where we were, we knew something was weird when we saw downloads Germany and Canada and South Africa were like, how are, how are you even finding out about this? So I asked what was at the time that the beginning sort of the first iteration of what is now the Jordan harbinger show. I said, okay, if you're listening to this and you're not in Ann Arbor, Michigan send me an email because I wanted to know how you found it. And we were getting emails from guys that were like, yeah, I work in a game park for a Safari park in South Africa. And I download this and I listened to it while I'm driving around, looking at the animals and stuff. Cause that's what, I'm, I, there's no radio stations in the middle of nowhere, right. In this game park. And I thought like, this is really powerful, this medium, and no one is talking about this. No, one's really messing with this. You know, you think it's cool. You can get a radio show from the UK downloaded to your iPod. If you're from the UK and you live in say New York, but you're not, no one was thinking I can reach everyone in the world with essentially a radio show that I made in my friend's basement. Right. And we can really start to gain a global audience. And that's when I was like, okay, I'm not teaching networking. I teaching dating. And the podcast is where it's at. Absolutely. That was the beginning of the show. And that's when we started offering things like phone coaching. And our first client was like from Denmark, you know? And I thought like, Holy smoke, we have an international business. And I haven't even graduated from school. And it's like making more money than I've ever held in my hands at any one.

Well, that's what I love the story of you on the flip phone, in the backyard getting sunburned because you're teaching, dating on your phone. And I related to that because I would be breaking into high rise buildings in Boston so that I could hang my swiping soiree flyer in the laundry room so that I could get these different hotel venues filled with single people. So I would go to gyms and places where I knew there was a lot of single people because I didn't have a podcast, but you realize that this information that this mentor and wall street, you know, he gave you this third path, but I feel like the way your mind works, you're so perceptive of people. And most people are like, yeah, yeah, okay. Influence, persuasion, whatever. And they kind of like, don't listen to you. They're so desperate for the information that you had and you were able to piece it together and put it in a program and then create a podcast, the same scalable issues or monetization I had when I would talk to different Hollywood producers or different writers or different people, agents who could help me. And I started out in my studio with a bunch of middle-aged women, half of the married, half of them, my friends, just showing up to hear what I had to say about this live keynote presentation that I created, but I was helping people. And so even if people didn't understand what I was doing, I was making an impact on their life. I didn't necessarily think, okay, money first. I think you did the same thing too. I think it was equal part, helping people equal part let's be successful or maybe you just love this information.

Yeah. I mean, I loved the information and I thought this is sort of the magic key. And then when I was teaching the dating stuff, it was like, okay, so now I have an excuse to learn all of this really cool new stuff that is very applicable to my life at age 27. I have somebody paying me to talk about it. My friends don't even really want to hear about it because I can't shut up about it. So they're like, okay, Jordan's going to talk about the dating stuff. How annoying? Like, they weren't really interested in it, especially at first. And then of course they were like, can you teach me this? As soon as they broke up with their girlfriends, a lot of people don't think they need these skills because they're dating someone and then that person leaves them or something. And they're like, what do you mean? You don't like the fact that I have no friends and no confidence and no self-esteem. And then they're like, ah, I need your skills now. You know? So it really turned into like a, a personal development program and guys were just eating it up. Men and women really guys were like, hold on a minute. You've decoded. This thing that no one has decoded. Right. Ever. And it wasn't just me. There were tons of these guys on the internet at the time, but they were creepy right. There were like these pickup guys on the internet and they were just weird. And they were like, okay, we're going to turn women into a role-playing game. And I was like, you know, I get where you're going with this, but it's not really addressing the fact that women are like these well-rounded people that are not just like a slot machine that you can put a quarter into and a combination, you know, magic thing happens. Our system w what became our system, it sort of just became a system. And that's when we started to offer things like phone coaching. And the reason we did that is because people would say, Hey, man, I have questions about this. And I'm like, look, I'm studying for the bar exam. Cool. That you have questions. Maybe you can write in and get some advice or something from us, like on the show itself. But I can't sit here and coach you, and I'm not a coach. And I remember this, this guy said, look, if I pay you, will you teach this to my sales team? I'm a mortgage banker. And I said to him, flat out, I said, I'm not a coach. So I really can't help you. And he wrote back and he said, I've hired a lot of coaches. None of are telling us the specific things that you are telling. They're giving us generalized advice. None of it is specific enough to be very helpful. So you are a coach. You just don't have a certificate on your wall, but let me break it to you yet. These guys selling coaching services on the internet, they woke up on their mom's couch last week and decided they were a coach, right? They're not, they didn't go to college to be a coach further. You're an attorney. You're absolutely a qualified counselor. You're in fact, probably one of the only professions where you are qualified to give people advice, right. Is, is an attorney. And so you're selling yourself short and I thought, okay, great. You know, that makes sense. To me, I'm still a little uncomfortable with it. And I was selling my phone coaching for like 50 bucks an hour. And this guy said, great, I want 40 hours of coaching. So here's two grand. And I'm going to coach you at first. And the first tip I'm going to say to you is you need to double or quadruple your price. And I said, that's impossible. No, one's going to pay, you know, a hundred bucks an hour for anything. And he goes, dude are a mortgage again, he's a mortgage banker. And he's like, I think our, he said our Kentucky Derby party was$25,000. You don't think we're going to pay X hundred dollars an hour for an attorney to give advice. We have to do that anyway. And it doesn't make us any money you teaching our sales team that could generate us tens of thousands. If not millions of dollars, you need to raise your prices. So I started to just raise my prices and it was like the higher I raised my price, the more customers I was getting, and I spent hours and hours and hours on the phone every day. And we were just making money, hand over fist. Like you, you mentioned before I was outside on my friend's hammock, just laying around, burning through my cell phone minutes. Right? Like getting a sunburn outside in Michigan, uh, in the summertime, because I would be on the phone on Skype or on the phone for like six hours. I was coaching, coaching, coaching, and I started to really enjoy it. And that's when we started running live programs because one of my phone coaching clients is like, can I come and stay with you and learn this stuff in person? And I said, hell no. I'm not letting a stranger on the internet, sleep on my couch for a week. This is so weird.

I don't really know you that well, even though I

Kind of know you from phone coaching,

You're going to come and live with me and go out like that.

So weird. And he goes, well, I understand that's unusual. What if I pay you$5,000 for the week? And I went, yeah. When

Are you tell me when you land, I'll pick

You up from the airport. You know? So we did that with this guy who was a street performing magician actually. And he later said like, this is incredible. I need to keep doing this, how much, you know? And I said, well, wait a minute. You know, this isn't something I can normally do. We did it anyways, obviously, because when he talks, especially when 27 years old and he's offering me more money to do something I'm already doing, then we talked about the fact that we had this guy on our couch, you know, essentially for a week. And we talked about it on our show and people were like, I didn't know, it was an option to come and live with you guys for a week. Right. And where do I sign up for that? So that was the beginning of the coaching business, because so many people were just like, yeah, like sign me up to go right ahead and live with y'all for a week and learn this stuff in person. That's the missing piece. So we didn't have to come up with like a complicated sales funnel and all of this stuff and try and figure out how to like turn bleeds and, you know, into anything. This was literally just us going, wow. We stumbled as backwards into this business opportunity. And it's wildly popular among our shows fan base, but I'm going to become a lawyer. So it's low stakes. Like if it doesn't work fine, we didn't mean to start a business anyways. So who cares? Right? That was kind of our mindset from the jump was like, this is temporary. It's something that we're doing now. That's just kind of fun slash funny, but it's not a business business. And then it became a multi-million dollar company. And that's amazing. I worked in law for a while, but it was like, what am I doing here? You know?

Well that, I love that. It was like, here's your pillow? Here's your blanket. Here's my couch. You're my first training client. And the same thing was happening to me where I am a full-time photographer. People are like, I'll pay you$5,000 to go to New York city with me for a weekend. And because when you go into a bar, you seem to have people come around you, but I worked the scene like you did. I knew all the doorman. I knew the bartenders. I knew that no one was going to put something in my drink. When I went to the bathroom, like I knew my way around. I knew what the menu looked like. I became like a gamer when I was dating to protect myself. But I studied it. You know, those creeps that you were talking about back in the day, they're still there. They're still doing those things. I created all this information or found all this information as a way to protect other people from wasting their nights and getting a babysitter and getting a blowout and coming home in tears and an Uber, because some time waster wanted their ego stroked and maybe, you know, a meal picked up. And that upset me because I cried many nights on my way home in an Uber. And I knew I had information that could help people. It's like this fine line of like, is it crazy? Or isn't brilliant.

It's definitely crazy. Right? Like I was 27 years old and, and like had, you know, I thought now or never y'all right. Like this was the time to start some sort of silly business. And the reason that we even thought about making a go of it was because, you know, I ended up getting laid off during the 2008 crash. Everybody did, my whole firm went under and it was like, Hey, why get another job that I don't even want? Right. And I had other lawyer of mine. I said, Hey, what are you going to do? You know, your firm went out of business too. Or your first year class got laid off. What are you going to do? And they're like, you know, I always like music. I'm just going to sort of like play music at bars for a couple of years while I sort of leisurely job hunt. I'm not in a hurry to sign myself up for brutal wall street hours again, during a recession. And I thought, Oh, if John's going to make a go of it, singing Beatles, fricking remixes at bars and playing the harmonica on the guitar at the same time, why wouldn't I make a go of it when I'm already making money in this niche that doesn't even exist without us almost, or at least we didn't know at the time, you know, why wouldn't I go for it? And my parents were like, look, as long as you can pay your bills and your student loans, whatever man, yellow, they didn't say yellow.

It was kind of

Like that. Right. Cause it was kinda like, look, you know, as long as you don't come whining to us and be like, mom, can you pay my bills then fine. And I was like, well, okay. As long as they're not going to sort of drive me crazy with guilt, I'm going to give it a shot because there's something to be said for, just for doing that. It's and I'm not going to get less busy later on. And now's a great time now that the economy is like in the toilet. So it really was such an interesting, like one in a million sort of chance, you know, like it was just a highly unusual way to start a business. And I'm so glad that it happened because I think it would have been really easy for me to get caught up and just be like, well, I guess I'm a lawyer now. And that's the end of it. You know, just like shackled to my desk and golden handcuffs shackled to the desk. And now I'm running one of the most popular podcasts in the world. I have fun. I talk to smart people every day. Like I just, I know so many attorneys that are just like, you figured it out, man. Right. And I, and it's funny because some of those people are the people where I go, you made fun of me mercilessly and told me I was wasting my life when I told you what I was going to do. And now you're like, you figured it out, man. I'm kind of at you right now. You know,

I know I have those friends too. Like don't, I'm not joining online. Like Carrie stopped talking about online and I was a Tinder success story. So I was happy and love, but I still was fascinated with it. And I was fascinated with relationships and all of these skillsets that you really taught people. And this is why I think you're such a great interviewer in one of the best in the world is because you've worked on these skills that you have this innate ability to get real with people and you just strip away any facade. And I know that's one of the things that you taught guys was they had this fake confidence, like, okay, I have this job and I have a boat and drive a nice car. And, but they couldn't just strip all that away and just be like a normal, nice regular person. That's something that I would see all the time. I don't remember what podcasts I was listening to. But you said something like, Oh, well they clean their car and then wear something that they normally wouldn't wear. And then go to another restaurant that they some fancy restaurant and then order something, they would never eat. And it's like, what part of them is their real side?

You're right. That's how I always skewer the advice. Be yourself. Cause people go, you know, just be yourself and they go, okay, got it. Be myself. First of all, you have no idea what that even means, but it doesn't matter because your first step is wear a sweater that you wear annually. When you go out on dates, wear a cologne, you don't wear right. Go to a restaurant. You'd never go to in a part of town. You never go to, that's literally the opposite of being yourself. But no one ever thinks that. So that's why it's terrible advice in the first place or one of the reasons why it's terrible advice in the first place. Non-actionable when people say be yourself, they mean, be that version of you when we're just at home wearing sweatpants and joking around on Christmas vacation, because that's the brother that I love and that somebody else will love. And it's like, yeah, there's context there. That doesn't make any sense. You don't go out on a date and go, you know what, I'm just not going to try. Right? Like, they're going to love me for who I am. It's like, no, they don't know who you are. All they know is you showed up to the date and a fricking hockey Jersey and you look like crap. Right. You know, that's what they know about you right now. Right.

Or fine lines. So it's like, that's where people just cannot connect because just as a woman, I remember I would just have the best outfit and put all this effort and spray tan, you name it, whatever I did. And I'd be exhausted by the time I had to even go into the city, I would be like, this is ridiculous. And then I would go on a date for five minutes and want to climb out of the bathroom window. And I knew that this wasn't my deal. And then I finally just stopped putting all that effort and I would wear what I wore to work. And I would just show up and be myself. And that person is going to love. You just truly likes the real person, but it's really hard for people to do that. And I think it's really hard for people to do that on like a podcast interview because they have the storyline of who the public thinks they are or, you know, I've got to be this way, but when they're real and they just say something, that's truly how they feel. That's when the listeners really lean in. You do that natural.

Well, yeah, the practice that I have interviewing people for, for the last 14 years or so is definitely plays a part in that and makes it seem really effortless. Just like people who probably, I guess I should say people who are good at dating, but that want to be good at dating. Cause they've done it for a long time. Like there, there's always sort of those people that can almost come their way into, you know, any kind of situation. And we don't envy those people, but there's a reason they have practice doing it. What we try to do, you know, what we were trying to do then I don't coach anymore. But we were trying to do that is make it seem like really effortless. But even though a lot of the guys were putting in a ton of effort, but of course the trick always was eventually this will become effortless because you will realize that the outcome doesn't really matter. Like we guys are, you know, we're so outcome dependent. We're like, we want her to like us and we want this to work out and we want this and that. And once you just realize that you can't do that, then you can sort of let go of that attachment to the outcome. It's so much, it was so much easier. We call it not being outcome dependent. And it means exactly that it's like, look, if she doesn't like you, it doesn't mean you're like a bad person. Don't start crying. It could mean any variety of things and you shouldn't sit there and analyze it unless there's something to be learned from it. We went through a lot of this with a lot of guys, but you know, of course when you're teaching dating and things like that, the vast majority of the people that you meet, they don't need a dating class. They need like therapy, right?

They need to stop talking about themselves or something. I don't know what it is.

They need to like actually start talking about themselves because you realize that they're like severely traumatized from a bad childhood. And it's like, Hey, you don't need cool tricks on dates. You need to go like take care of your mental health or your like undiagnosed Asperger's and like trying to go out to bars and meet people. And you're like, why am I not able to do this? And you're like an introvert, you know, we had a lot of those folks as well.

I'm sure. I'm sure you talk about some article. I think it was the Forbes article. You said something like, this is what you do when you get discouraged. And overcoming rejection is one of the hardest things in online dating and the article you were quoted as saying, it's inevitable that things won't work out at least part of the time. And sometimes your efforts won't always pay off, but you should try to not take it personally. And I thought that was really good because we're all going to have setbacks and we're all going to reach out to people and they're not going to reach back. I mean, you've reached back. I mean, that's one of the things that you taught me is that I will never not respond to an email. Like I just, that is like the best thing ever because I, I spent a lot of time with my clients and I shoot and I edit all day and being on the computer, isn't my strong suit. Even if it takes a couple of days to get back to someone, you are really showing them like disrespect. If you don't get back to someone, I took the time to write you. And so that was kind of fun for me because when I wrote you, I listened to you. And I thought, you know, this guy is, yes, he's insanely successful, but he never lost sight of who he is. And he's a good person and he's trying to help people. And I could hear that. And I was like, he's a lot like me. And I'm just going to try. And, and I knew that you would write me back and I didn't think that you would agree. I just didn't know. I wasn't sure, but I was so excited when you did and so grateful. And it was something that I took a shot. That's what I teach on on this podcast is what do you have to lose? Just try you hope you're going to have some hits and some misses, but at least go for it because you never know. That was fun too, to have that. Yeah. So thank you for being here today.

Yeah, of course. My pleasure.

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What would your advice be for people who are heartbroken or this one, this one really resonated with me. You had talked about when you were no longer on the art of charm and it was like a Thursday, you had to figure out, okay, you always put out episodes on a Tuesday and that next Tuesday you put out the Jordan harbinger show. And I thought, my God, this guy is, that is what it takes. You know, I'm sure a lot of people ask you, how do you have one of the top 10 podcasts in the world? Well, it's skills like that, that you're just going to get back up. Don't skip a beat. So what would your advice be for people who are heartbroken, knocked down and need to rebuild and start over?

Yeah, I mean, the first thing I like to tell people is that taking action sort of for many folks, look, you maybe just need a vacation, but for me, I'm one of those folks that like I needed to take action to sort of end my suffering. Right. And what I mean by that is I sitting home thinking about what ifs and worrying and stuff that was really bad for me. So what I started to do is be like, okay, what's the next sort of one small step that I need to take to move forward with breakups. I always recommend people start learning a new skill because it builds confidence and also adds to your identity, et cetera. But when it comes to business, you don't necessarily need to learn a new skill per se. It was what's the next logical step forward in the progression. So I was like, Oh my God, I have a million things to do. And I can't do any of them. And I'm overwhelmed. And I just want to like drink whiskey and go to sleep. You know, that kind of thing, right. For this, it was like, all right, I'm going to make a list of all of the things I need to do. And then sort of make a plan for how I'm going to do the top most important ones and talk about it with my wife. And then she's gonna, you know, she shot down a few things that didn't need to get done that felt like they needed to get done. And then we wrote down some things that I thought about that were like, assumptions about how to restart. And I said, okay, I need to test these. And I also need to talk to people who know what they're doing when it comes to these things. So I called like 80 people that were really awesome at business, like CEOs of companies and people that I've met doing my show. And I was like, what would you do if you were me right now? And you know, what words of advice would you give to somebody like me right now? And people couldn't wait to help me, which is really cool because, you know, it's a good feeling to have when people are like, I finally get a chance to help you back. You know, that was like super nice. And it worked out really well because a lot of folks gave me really, really good advice, you know, whether it was specific to my situation or just made me feel better, the advice wasn't the part that was the most important. It was knowing, slash feeling that people were in my corner, that was actually the most important. So it was like, well, this happened to me, but having to call and talk about and discuss this all with, like, that was actually really kind of the key, right? Like that was what made me feel better about all of this. I realized, okay, it is my network. That's going to make me come back to the top and that it's going to make all the difference in the world. So I really focused on that, which I had, luckily also been focusing on before I broke off from my old company, obviously it worked pulling through massive execution and figuring out what needed to be done next, also really works. And I think that there's a lesson there because a lot of people will really spend just absolute tons of time sort of wallowing or like having problems taking action because they don't know what to do next. And instead of figuring it out, they just kind of like get locked up, you know, and freeze. And that was something that I was able to avoid. Uh, thankfully, you know, I, I was depressed for a couple of weeks, you know, I like didn't sleep well. And I was stressed out and my wife was like, Oh my God, I'm going to kill you. Um, because she was driving her crazy. But you know, it quickly, quite quickly became obvious that this was gonna work, even if it was slow and painful. And it turned out to be really fast actually. Right. It turned out that all the Goodwill that I built up over years and years and years, and like working with amazing people and things like that, like that all paid off in the end. Right.

But that was all you all along. So it doesn't matter the name of the show you had the goods, but what happens is we all have that moment of imposter syndrome. And when we lose confidence or things, don't turn out the way that we had hoped or planned, then everything kind of falls apart. And you need someone who loves you. Who's like, wait a minute. You're amazing. Like you still have these skillsets. You still can do this. You've done it for however many years. So now you're just going to repackage it and do something different. And I think it was the best thing to happen because your show is amazing. And you get to pick who you want to interview. And I don't know. I just think it, it was a blessing in disguise, but totally. I want to talk about confidence because this is something that you teach. And I think it's so great. I love something. You said, you said you became the person that you were trying to be. So if you act more confident in the first moments of meeting a new person, they will treat you differently. And in return, you acted into this newly confident person. And I love your doorway concept. Can you talk about this doorway drill and how it benefits your first one?

There's an old, I don't actually know how old it is. I actually, there's like a, I'll say it's old. How's that there's this old adage that you can act your way into new beliefs faster than you can think your way into new ways of acting. And that's not exactly the quote here, but the point is trying to think about changing and like what you're going to do and how you're going to do it is very difficult. But if you act in a different way and create different habits and different actions, those things will change the way that you think quickly over time. That is extremely important because what a lot of people do is they get sort of paralyzed in. They're like, all right, I'm going to be confident and I'm not going to fall to pieces this time. I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do this totally different thing. That's not how you actually change actions, right. At all, right. You do it by taking the actions completely independent, you know, sort of feel the fear and do it anyway, kind of thing. And then after awhile, you don't have the fear and it's not just a willpower exercise. You know, you don't have to consistently have that willpower, but that's the general idea. And so the doorway drill is sort of a body language reminder or putting this into action. And what that means is the best first impression is to be upright, confident, positive. You know, essentially we're looking friendly, looking open, positive, confident, friendly. You can walk into a room and try and remember to do those things, but it's very difficult. And once you start processing things like conversation and trying to pay attention in a discussion and be present, you're not going to be able to micro monitor all of your body language. It's very, very difficult. So instead, what I recommend people do is walk into every room, being upright, open, positive, competent, friendly, whatever you want to call it. And you're not going to remember to do that every time. So you need a cue and the cue is the doorway because that's what, you know, you enter a room, there's a doorway. And a lot of people will say like inhale. When you walk through the door, straighten up, shoulders, back, chest up, smile on your face. But again, we go through doors every day. So the cue doesn't really work, right? We just forget about it really quickly. So what I recommend people do is grab those little post-it notes that have been sitting in your drawer, the little tiny ones that don't have enough room to write anything on them and put one up at eye level in your office, your home office. Now of course your, the bathroom, your bedroom doors, you go through all the time. And what this does is since you've got a little hot pink note on the side of your tour, what this does is it shows you, ah, right. Why is that there? Okay. So it breaks that sort of pattern, the routine of you walking through that door and not thinking. And when you see that note, you go, Oh right, I'm doing the doorway drill, upright, confident, positive, nonverbal communication. What this does is when you create those cues in your own house and those doors that you're going through all the time or in your office, eventually you don't need the note anymore. You just notice more when you're walking through doorways and you start to create that nonverbal first impression. And honestly, you don't always need to straighten up after a while. Your default posture becomes upright, open, positive, and confident. Why? Because you're acting your way into new ways of thinking. Right? Right. So you don't always need to do this. It ha it helps when you start off doing it at home, because at home we're very often just totally on autopilot and not paying attention. You really only need to do this for like a couple of before you realized that you can easily create a positive first impression with people and look open, positive, and competent and friendly. And when you do people start to treat you totally different. I agree. You know, if I look like down and tired, I might walk into the Starbucks and they're like, ah, hi, can I get anything for you? And they're like, Oh, this guy looks kind of miserable or just sort of neutral. But if I walk in and I'm smiling and I look them in the eye and I say, hello, and, and open and friendly, they start to treat me that way. And everyone around me starts to treat me that way. Right. Depending on their mood, of course, but people start to treat you differently. And when people treat you differently, you start to act differently. So it's a self-reinforcing pattern. That's actually highly beneficial.

Absolutely. I mean, I know that from shooting covers where I show up on the set and there's all the handlers, there's the wardrobe, makeup, styling, you name it. So I come in and I know once I put that camera around my neck, I'm here. I'm going to nail this cover. I'm going to do right by the person that I'm photographing. But everything goes around my confidence, in my ability to do well on that shoot and do right by that person in photographing. But what I love about this nonverbal cues that no one really has talked about, like you have at this level, is that, that is the most. Well, for me, I always say the photograph on the online dating is the most important piece to kind of set you apart, but great. You've got a bunch of matches, but they're not dates. So dates, that's your 90 seconds or less. You're going to make that first impression. And it has nothing to do with what you say. Your whole thing is revision in review and you practice something deliberately. Like you'll practice something that you're not good at as well as something you're good at dating is practice. I like the doorway drill because it's like, all right, Hey, let's practice walking into a room, but I also want people to think about where are you going to put your bag? You know, are you going to be nervously taking off your coat? Are you going to accidentally spill a drink, be confident the best you can, but these sound like stupid small things, but they're not because it just, how you sit down to that table and how you sit up tall. And if you cross your leg or you say, how was your day? And you have a knife, your Chin's up and you have open smile and you're just chill. You're going to do better if you're, you know, kind of a train wreck and a stress case.

I mean, that's for sure, obviously look at, we've all been on a date where the other person's horribly nervous and you're like, okay, you know, this is like super managing their anxiety. It's really irritating. It's exhausting. I don't want to be here anymore. Like that happens all the time.

Oh my gosh. I wish I could have followed you when you were out dating, because I think he would've intimidated a lot of people because you definitely look at different things that most people don't look at.

Sure. I mean, my dating life was really interesting because I would be looking at totally different things like you said, but of course, you know, me myself, I'm still like nervous or not nervous, but a little bit more attuned. And that can be, that can be just as bad. Cause then you're hyper aware. I know I'm that way too. I will also admit that it also made dating a hell of a lot easier because once I really did get comfortable. And even now, now that I'm a talk show host, it's like, Oh my gosh. You know, when I met my wife, I was like, Oh man, you know this dating skillset, I guess I'm going to miss using it. I'll never use it again. I use these types of things all the time when I'm trying to get other people comfortable. And when I'm trying to, you know, and of course when you're in a interview scenario, the person with the most confidence in their, the way that they're speaking and talking like will often win and like a debate scenario. So it comes in handy all the time. And it's almost like the whole dating thing was just training for me to start, you know, the Jordan harbinger show where I'm interviewing all these amazing people. And also you have to be quite competent to be able to sit there with Matthew McConaughey and do an interview and be like, well, let me challenge you on this. You know, like most people are just sitting there going, you're so attractive, you know, it's like, okay, um, this is not an interview to say, it's come in handy. It would be just a, you know, an understatement

Absolutely loved your Matthew McConaughey interview. And I didn't know what to think about. I mean, you have to understand from my world, I've been around celebrities my whole life. So what I was saying to him, I thought he was so interesting. And then when he ever started talking about rooster, his brother and the, the sun Miller light, I was like, this stuff is so colorful. And I just thought he was fascinating. And I agree with you, but yes, he's a super handsome, successful actor. And one seems like a wonderful person, but he connected with you because he like yourself. Hasn't forgotten where he's come from. He's more interested in real interesting people rather than the superficial things. That's what I took away from that.

Yeah. I think he he's, he's a real person in a way that's sort of probably surprises a lot of folks.

Absolutely. And it's refreshing and he's really intelligent. Not everyone could have gotten that interview. So congratulations, because I thought that was really, really good. The things that you do that you teach that I think are invaluable and just don't go for dating is when you try to connect with someone, find a way to add value. And you believe that you find the things that people like personally or professionally and find some kind of common ground. Can you give me an example of how adding value makes a huge difference in connecting with people?

Yeah. I mean, I think for, for most folks they think what's in it for me. Right. And I understand that like that temptation totally makes sense. You know, that there, of course I'm not thinking about other people until like, I need them for something that's very human. And I understand that. And, and that's, that's the way that most people are. But I also realize that it's really annoying when somebody tries to reach out to me and says like, Hey, I need something from you. And I go, dude, I'm looking at our text history. I've texted you like 40 times, you know, maybe four, but still over the last two years, you never replied. And now you're hitting me up. What do you like, what do you want? They're already starting off on the back foot. And I realized, there's a reason people do this. And it's because, unless you're thinking about what you need from someone, of course, you're not necessarily always going to reach out to them again, it's very human. So I devised a bunch of systems whereby I reach out and check in with people all the time, just because I was thinking of them or thought about something that could help them or met somebody that they should be introduced to. I do that all the time. And I don't think about what's in it for me at all, because the calculation doesn't really matter, right. People either be able to help me with something in the future or they won't. And I don't really want to base whether or not I keep in touch with them or whether I think they can be useful to me in the long run that that's just a bad calculation to have to make. So I started just to live by the idea that it didn't matter if anybody could ever help me with anything, I would always keep in touch with people. And I would introduce them to people that I thought would be useful for them over the years. That's just turned into like the best investment I possibly could have made in my entire life. Because as it turns out, introducing people to each other is a great way to earn referral currency, social capital, whatever you want to call it, where people are like this Jordan guys, really nice. Thanks for introducing us. People can't wait to help you. Like I mentioned before, when I had to start my show over people couldn't wait to help me because I'd help them with something. And I forgot all about it because I wasn't thinking about what was in it for me. I just did what they needed me to do or something that I had thought about being useful for them. And that generated just so much referral currency and social capital in my social circle. And in my business circle that now I, I feel like routinely, I never really have to ask for anything cause stuff just sort of falls in my lap many times. And when I do ask for things, it's like, I almost have too many takers, right? Like, Oh, too many people want to help me with this. Thanks everyone. You know, that happens to me all the time. And it's because I've spent years just helping other people get what they want and not worrying about it or having an expectation of getting something in return. And I highly recommend that. I really think that's the way to live. Honestly,

I agree. And that's how I started. I never thought I'd have this podcast, but I was helping people who were in transition either lost a parent or lost a job or lost a relationship. And they were just lost themselves. And I was helping them just because I was that person and I needed help. And I just did it because I wanted to help them. And I've had a lot of great success. And I do believe that that is the secret to your success is that do things without the attachment of getting something in return. And I love that you live your life with that principled give without gain. I love the story about how found that dentist on Facebook. That was so great.

Yeah. That, that's an interesting, that's sort of about what do you want to call it? Keeping score right down. But essentially I helped this kid find a job because he had helped me find a dentist on Facebook. And I didn't know, I could get him the job and he didn't know necessarily where I lived, but he helped me get my tooth filled by his aunt. And then he gave me his graphic design portfolio and he said, Hey, I'm a barista right now, but I would love a job as a graphic designer. If you happen to know anyone, I didn't know anyone until four days later, when a friend emailed me out of the blue and said, Hey, I'm looking for a designer because my web guy keeps flaking. And I said, look, I got a graphics guy, but not a web guy. She said, I'll take what I can get ends up, hiring them for$80,000 a year. And the reason that, that story isn't just a cute sort of little coincidence is because the reason it worked was because this guy helped me without asking for anything in return. And then when he gave me his portfolio, he wasn't expecting me to get them a job. He just said, Hey, you know, if you can sort of keep your ears to the ground, that would be helpful. And of course I did because of the concept of reciprocation, right? I felt like I owed him one and that turned out to get him a job. I mean, this guy was making freaking lattes. And then he got a job that was probably paid three times as much doing exactly what he wanted to do in his life because he helped me find a dentist on Facebook, but he wasn't thinking what's in it for me. He was just being helpful. And I was just being helpful in making that intro to my friend. And it turned out that it worked out, it was life changing for this kid. The moral of the story on there is opportunities are over the horizon, right? You can't see them. You know, if I help a hundred people get started in podcasting or whatever, some sort of trivial thing that doesn't take me very long, I'm making an email introduction to an audio editor for them or something like that. They're very thankful. And I forget about it in two hours, right. And then 10 years later when I need something, I call them or email them and say, Hey, I haven't talked to you in a while, but you know, this happened. And I'm wondering if you have any advice and they go advice, let me email your new show, link to my whole email list. And I go, Oh, you have an email list. Yeah. I took your advice. And I started my show. It's been going for five years and I've got 15,000 people listening and I'm going, wow. Okay. Yeah, I could, I don't mind calling in that favor. Right. And if you do that over and over and over again, and you're planning so many seeds that even if most of them don't grow, let's say 90 out of a hundred people never help you with anything. Well, 10 people helping you with something that's pretty good. And you can create that those a hundred relationships every single year, that's helping one person, every what? Four days or something. I mean, that's not a heavy lift.

No, but it's a true measure of success. Think about it the time that you gave me today, which I'm so grateful for. I hope I can say, Hey, I've helped all these people. And just because you thought enough about me and we're all just trying find our way. But if we can lead with helping versus what's in it for me mindset, I think that's the key to any success. It really is.

It's the insurance policy that money can't buy. You can't pay people to have your back when you're down and out and you're on the ground. Right. And you're in, in life has kicked you a couple more times for good measure, right? You, you can't buy insurance for that. So why would you not invest in this? Especially when it's five minutes a day, you know? And that's, that's why I came up with that course. The six-minute networking course, because I'm like, this is the magic sauce. The more people that do this, the better off, like not to be too cheesy, but the better off like the whole world really is. And so I, the reason I give it away it, and you don't even have to like enter your credit card. Cause people go, Oh, you're giving it away. I bet you have to enter your credit. No, I want everyone to do this because when people do this, they're like, wow, that's incredible. And then basically those people defacto become a part of my network, my extended network. And it's like, this is just networking on steroids, like who doesn't want to do this?

That's great. And the other last thing that I'll say is that one of the things that you teach was just incredible is, you know, you talk about building relationships before you need them. And it's what you said earlier. You know, you don't go looking for friends when you're on the ground and you can't pull yourself back up. But one thing that I love and I think it really does apply to dating is don't go to the well when it's dry or when you're thirsty. I tell people all the time, if you're single well, you're going to need single friends. So go out, stop being so judgmental. You'll have new friends, new clients, whatever you might not marry that person, but you need to stop putting your eggs in one basket and start getting out and networking and dating. It's similar to the don't go to the, well, when it's dry, I am going to end with one of your quotes and I love it. It says we all rise. When we lift others up,

We rise by lifting others as the quote, but yours, your way. Sounds good too. I'll take it.

That's the add in me.

Amen,

Jordan, thank you so much for teaching us how important communication skills are. And I promise I will never not respond to an email again. And how important it is to care about others. Jordan, you are amazing. And like I said, in the email that I wrote you, that the world needs more Jordans. It was an honor to have you here today on such a meaningful episode. Thank you so much. Thank you. So where can people find out more about you and download your free six minute networking class?

The podcast is the Jordan harbinger show. H a R B I N G E R. And the course again, free no credit card. None of that garbage is at Jordan harbinger.com/course. And I'm at Jordan harbinger or harbinger on Twitter, Instagram. And I'm happy to hear from people in the old DMS, but definitely out the Jordan harbinger show as a podcast. Cause that's, that's where I like to think. I truly shine. If anywhere

You do, you like light up the world. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for your time today. Coming on shot of LA. Now this week's Tinder tips in honor of this week's guest Jordan harbinger. These tips come directly from him. Number one, double down on the doorway drill practice makes perfect. First impressions are made non-verbally. As soon as a new person sees us, grab yourself a pack of post-its and put a post-it at eye level, shoulders back head held high chin up and remember to practice walking confidently, open and upright. Every time you walked through that door. Number two, don't get discouraged. Sometimes you'll swing and miss, but you can always try later. After some time has gone by number three, find a way to add value. Everyone has something to offer. Number four, never act like anyone owes you a thing. If you act entitled, you will get written off as a taker. Number five, if you find yourself in pain, don't skip a beat, do everything. You can take a back on your feet, action and suffering. I hope you found some of my tips helpful this week. This is what shot at love is here for, to help you find love. Keep up the commitment to yourself and commit to helping someone else by sharing this podcast. If you liked this show, please leave a five-star review. I'm Carrie Brett, and we'll see.