Capturing Hearts: From Art Direction To Online Connection With Joe Heroun

Speaker 1: 0:02

I'm Carrie Brett , and this is Shot At Love Meet Joe Herron, a man who's mastered the art of capturing attention. He's a multifaceted talent in the world of photography, fashion, art, direction, and design. Joe has been the creative force behind Iconic magazine covers for decades, and was a driving force at the Improper Bostonian magazine. Today, his mission is helping men elevate their style and up their dating game. He'll share secrets to online appeal and what's behind the perfect image for the digital age. How to enhance your image through clothing from the timeless white tee , layering up or choosing the right accessories, what makes a lasting impression visually, and how to be yourself in front of the camera and what it takes to look put together in a photograph. Because in the world of dating, appearances matter. So throw on that bomber jacket, rock that well tailed suit, and show the world you're the bomb . You won't wanna miss it. So stay tuned. Joe Herron has had a diverse career in the fine and applied arts. He started off in illustration in advertising, and later pursued classical art, drawing and painting at the New York Academy of Art. He went on to become the editorial art director and creative director working for prominent publications such as Sports Illustrated, Newsweek, the Boston Globe, Boston Magazine, and the Improper Bostonian. For many years, he worked with Men's Health, men's Fitness, and Shape magazines, leading photography for celebrity profiles, fashion stories, and various lifestyle topics, from fitness to food. During that time, he sharpened his photography skills and currently runs a studio in Boston. Additionally, Herron teaches media and publishing at Emerson College. It is my honor to welcome Joe Herron to the show today. So without further ado, welcome Joe . Hi, Joe. Hi Gary .

Speaker 2: 1:48

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:49

This is amazing. This is so incredible. All for people who are listening. This is a really exciting episode for me because we worked so closely together for 28 years doing some powerful work in the city of Boston. You were my art director at the Improper Bostonian, and I learned an awful lot from you. And now we're both in the online dating space, which is really full circle and fun and interesting. But today we're gonna have a conversation of how to get people to look and check you out online and how to elevate how you present in the world. And it's gonna be a really interesting conversation. Before I start asking you these questions and put you in the hot seat, I want you to talk about your career and what is an art director. You can't go to school for it. You learned on the job, you took a lot of risks, and at the end of the day, the art director makes that decision if that cover is gonna fly, if that image is good enough to be a cover.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Well, actually, editors in chief have the final word. Typically, it's usually a , you know, a combination of a teamwork between the top art person and the editor. The art director has to deliver, you know, the right images. That's their job. An art director is kind of a neglect career and many people don't really understand what we do. You can boil it down by saying it's the skillset is sense of design and a sense of curiosity. Endless curiosity. So for example, I've worked for so many different publications from hard news to fashion, to food fitness, pretty much every category. It requires having an intense interest in all those different areas.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Like the time you had me photograph a blowup doll <laugh> in your kitchen, <laugh>, I don't remember what that was about. But we have to shoot things sometimes based on a concept,

Speaker 2: 3:54

Which wasn't mine by the way. It was , uh,

Speaker 1: 3:56

It was someone else, but it

Speaker 2: 3:57

Was

Speaker 1: 3:57

Nancy's. Right. But that was so hilarious because I don't think we were able to execute that. But sometimes we have these wild concepts and we've gotta find a way to work together to make it happen. Right. And that is being curious, that is being open to try new things. This conversation can help a lot of people because they'll hear that and say, oh, I heard on this podcast that if you do the layered look or if you do this, it's gonna make you appear more approachable or warm inviting as far as the art direction, you know, what we're trying to accomplish. You know, things may go wrong. You know, we have the initial shot list and what we're trying to do, but sometimes the stylist has an agenda. You said that. Right? And, and I've had that happen. Or the different people that come on the set, they will do something that they like and prefer, but it's not in the best interest of the subject.

Speaker 2: 5:03

Maybe you should explain what stylist means in this context.

Speaker 1: 5:06

Okay. So a stylist is someone that would be on a magazine cover shoot . They would bring lots of options and we would have a pin down look per se. But then when we have that look, it may not work because it makes the subject too stiff, or that person just would never wear that. It's like putting me in a bunch of pastel colors. I'm not gonna feel very confident.

Speaker 2: 5:35

Well, that's it. A lot of times the the celebrities refuse to , uh, wear what the stylists brought.

Speaker 1: 5:41

That's right. So one of my best advocates, or the people that I had to get to know was the athletes , wives and girlfriends, because I needed to get into their closet. And I, so to speak, so to speak, <laugh> , I needed access to their locker room, <laugh> or their locker, I should say. I don't want to go in the locker room. <laugh>, <laugh> ,

Speaker 2: 6:02

Let's not go there,

Speaker 1: 6:04

<laugh> . But I needed some extra pieces of color, whether it was a necklace or a layered look. It gave me options. And I think options are good. So if you're planning on doing a photography session with either one of us, I always say bring three to five tops. Something that you feel good in, something that you know you would wear on a first date. People know what they look like. I I will say that. And they know what they feel looks great on them. They know the cut, the color , things that might be really buttoned up. More conservative, more edgy. It's really kind of fascinating. So let's continue talking about the art director piece. People think what we do is glamorous. It is not, the sets are chaotic. We have to deal with handlers. People don't like to be photographed, even if they are a model, I feel like,

Speaker 2: 7:07

Or a celebrity. Or

Speaker 1: 7:08

A

Speaker 2: 7:08

Celebrity, I mean, models do it because that's, that's their job. They're ,

Speaker 1: 7:10

They're better at it. But sometimes models have off days Yeah. And personal things are happening and people are in pain and they

Speaker 2: 7:20

Whatever. And they're often treated poorly.

Speaker 1: 7:21

That's right. So when you're on the set, preparation was a big thing that was key for the two of us. And in these confusing moments, the talent has to respect the photographer and there has to be one boss. And you have to allow the space for that photographer to get to where they need to go creatively. Right. And so we were talking earlier about how I have no poker face . You knew that I , I was working through the different poses to then see what could possibly evolve that we may not have planned, but it's way better. Right? And so that's where being open to try new things is key with photographers and subjects. And that's where that trust comes in. Where you would trust when I went out to do that, shoot, I listened to your direction. Thankfully you gave me a long leashing myself , <laugh> . No , thankfully you would let me do what I needed to do.

Speaker 2: 8:32

Right. And you know, the way it works is that , um, you have to go into a shoot with, with a plan, but you have to also be prepared to toss it out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you know, when it's not working, or as you said, when something better arises and just , you have to know when to , um, embrace the pon spontaneity and run with it. Right. And know that that's gonna be better than what you , you had had , uh, planned. And that's kind of the fun of it too. I mean, it's the, the unpredictability is one of the great

Speaker 1: 9:04

Thrills

Speaker 2: 9:05

Pleasures of the job. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Right. It's always different. It's always different. But there are some, there's some high highs and some low lows and, and things don't evolve the way you think sometimes. And you think you have a good handle on that subject or who they are. And let's just say they're a comedian and they're not funny <laugh> and they're not particularly nice to you. So there you just don't know what you're gonna walk into on that shoot. That's

Speaker 2: 9:31

Right.

Speaker 1: 9:32

It was always interesting to me when people weren't nice to me. 'cause I'm like, try to do your a favor here, <laugh> . But maybe they had something going on personally in their life that

Speaker 2: 9:41

It often happens though , that the , um, the funniest people are the grumpiest in person. Mm . You know, comedians that are, that seem like they used , they'd just be cracking wise constantly. They come on set and they're just like, stone cold. Yeah. And , uh, don't say a word.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Yeah. It's interesting. But I think what happened with my covers is that because I had a good sense of people, I could so quickly and clearly see the person, not the persona that worked because they were so used to being portrayed in a certain way. And I was like, what about this? 'cause this is what I saw that day that I shot the truth. And, and it sometimes was controversial, but there is emotion behind it. And when there's emotion behind it, that's powerful. And so we want the people listening who are trying to find love and to have better results. What can we give them that will up their game? I can remember the improper, we're still around. We, we closed years ago and I was sitting at a bar with you and I was like, Joe , I have this idea. I'm so into online dating. And you were like all ears, but never thought that you would be so fascinated with it as you are now.

Speaker 2: 11:07

Yeah. Well I was clueless,

Speaker 1: 11:09

Right?

Speaker 2: 11:10

Until recently. In fact, I thought everyone just took selfies, right? <laugh> , I was completely wrong about that. I didn't , I didn't even know what a dating coach was.

Speaker 1: 11:19

So things have changed. The improper iss not around anymore. So we've had to embrace the new technology and that's what we're doing because we still are photographers <laugh> and we still wanna create good images and do good work. So you reached out to me and you started a collaboration with a dating coach . Her name is Blaine Anderson, dating by Blaine who just appeared on Shark Tank. And she helps men with texting and various other things. And one thing I like about her is that she knows the power of the leading photograph. She knows that high quality images are gonna get you high quality matches. And so she is collaborating with you and you've photographed some men here in Boston that she referred you. Tell us about what you've learned and what that's been like.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Dating photographs are an extension of what I call personal branding. I shoot , uh, headshots too , which have a similar intent, you know, which is to project you who you are professionally, personally, in the hopes of winning someone over, whether it's for a job or, or romance. But the approach is very different with blame advocates are photographs that seem spontaneous and not self-conscious in any way. Not cliched as in opposed . It should just feel like you're hanging out with a the friend. Things like that. It's all about authenticity. So

Speaker 1: 12:54

You can see if that's their real smile. You can see kindness in someone's eyes. You can see narcissism in somebody. You can see phoniness if someone doesn't have a good intent. And it all comes out in those images. The camera doesn't lie. The camera doesn't lie. It's really interesting. And so you mentioned headshots. And so when you're selling yourself online, let's say on LinkedIn, you can project an image. When I photograph people who are in finance, I always say to them, people are trusting you with their money, which is their livelihood. And it's so important. So can they trust you in that photograph? So when I say that to people who handle money, then they're pay attention <laugh> . But if I don't say that, they might not necessarily pay attention. But these more posed business executive type portraits are different in a sense. Yes. The commonality is the fact that they're high quality . They took the extra care with the outfit choice. Maybe they got a blowout, maybe they got their makeup done, they upped their game for that shot. And I think it's really important because both are the same. Whether you're getting headshot or you're getting images for your profile.

Speaker 2: 14:21

If I could boil it down to one word, I would say confidence.

Speaker 1: 14:24

You know what, that's so interesting. We did not talk about this, but I will say the number one thing that I believe, I think it's 90% of your success rate, is a good leading image. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . That's gonna get the door open for you. That's gonna get you more matches. That will lead to more dates. That's number one. But in that portrait, you've gotta know who you are and be confident in who you are and know you're a good person and know your value and know that you're deserving of love. And so you've really gotta step into your power in that moment. It's hard. And most times, the people that I photograph and people come to me, they're coming from a place of vulnerability. Their life has fallen apart. Yeah, absolutely. They're looking for a new job. They just went through a bitter divorce. The divorce may still be happening. There's a lot of things that are changing rapidly in their life, but they still are tired of being alone. They wanna find love, but they may not be coming from their best version. Right. But they'll get there. And life is now. So I help lend some confidence on the shoot if I have to.

Speaker 2: 15:39

And there are so many inherent contradictions in the process because most people are not familiar or comfortable being photographed.

Speaker 1: 15:47

That's right.

Speaker 2: 15:48

And I think the same is true for photographers who would much rather be behind the camera than in front. But at the same time, while they have that apprehension, that's very natural. It's our job to flip that, that narrative and make them appear otherwise totally confident, totally at ease, totally natural. For my part, I, I've found that my work is overwhelmingly , uh, women, but I've been doing more men and I have a long , long history of an editorial of shooting men, styling them . Celebrities. I find now with , with dating, I'm able to, as a straight guy, disarm and put it at ease my subjects very quickly. 'cause we just start talking about straight guy stuff and they forget what they're doing. They forget what the whole thing's about. It becomes very natural. And we part ways as friends.

Speaker 1: 16:35

It is interesting where you felt that your specialty was women and now you have this new take on men and you're seeing that they're coming from this place of vulnerability and they don't know what to do about clothes. They don't know styling. I think women probably depending, I don't wanna generalize. So I don't think that's fair to generalize. 'cause some people just have a great sense of fashion and they just know what they like and they're excellent at it. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . I don't like to shop. So I know what I like, but I don't wanna spend a lot of time doing it. So now what you've learned from Blaine is she purposely asks you to have images that seem casual and want you to shy away from something that's deliberately staged. This is interesting in the case of men, because I don't know, I mean, I think a good portrait is a good portrait. And how you get there, I don't really care. I just know when you look at a portrait, it seems like it's them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so I pay attention to when people lean to one side or they don't wanna go to the other side, or there's natural mannerisms that we have that we do. Like some people slouch. So we have to adjust and work with what people give us. But then we can improve and take direction or, or give direction.

Speaker 2: 17:59

But all too often people assume a , um, an unnatural being in front of a camera and they do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do. So we have to, you know, watch out for that and kind of break that habit. But in terms of styling, and one interesting thing was early on with Lane , I was shooting a preparing to shoot a guy. I thought one of these shots would be good as he's an executive. I thought one of the shots would be , you know , wearing a blazer. Yeah . You know, kind of a , an urban look. And they said, no, no, no, it's too buttoned up. They want all the images to look fun. Like what you would look like on a , on a weekend.

Speaker 1: 18:38

Yeah. I don't agree with that because I think <laugh> that's okay. This is a conversation. Yeah . Yeah. And I , and I think some people wear a sport like that's who they are. They're an executive and they, well, it's interesting now 'cause you've got Covid, but I think having an executive looking portrait that is styled in a great suit that's tailored made for you can give men an edge. And I have this theory where everything changed for Julia Roberts when she had that pretty woman moment where she put on that fabulous dress. So you can really up the way you present. Oh , you can transform yourself, you can transform yourself. And then when men look at you in an incredible dress and in heels, they imagine, oh, this is the type of girl I can take to a corporate event. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , this is someone I can take to a holiday party. I think those images work well. I do,

Speaker 2: 19:39

You know , I know things that a suit covers a lot of flaws.

Speaker 1: 19:43

That's

Speaker 2: 19:43

Interesting. And most men look their best in a suit. I agree. Or a blazer. It's much more difficult to style a guy to look great in casual wear . Ever seen pictures of executives that are normally in a suit, then you see them or a politician or whatever, and then you see a picture of him . I mean, it's like, this might be a bad example, but Trump, regardless of what you think of him right , is well put together. Uh , sartorially, he always has a proper suit on ties perfect. And it's, it's , uh, tailored for him, you know, to cover, to conceal his, his weight. And then you see pictures of him on a tennis court or, or golf course , it looks terrible. It's like night and day.

Speaker 3: 20:29

How great would it be to find the love of your life? The man of your dreams. Do you believe online dating would work if you had the right tools to be successful? Well, I have exciting news. I've created your best shot at Love Masterclass. I cannot wait to share with you what's worked for me in my life and for many of my clients that have helped over the years. If you enroll in this class, you have a winning mindset and believe in getting help before you start something new. If you're ready to see changes in your dating life and wanna take action, check out my free webinar@shotatlove.co. If you decide you're going to choose another path that you're worth it and you're willing to enroll in the masterclass, you can also register@shotatlove.co. I designed this masterclass specifically for you to be successful. Please know that everything you're going to learn in these nine modules and six coaching calls has been carefully curated for you. So you can gain the success you truly want. I will be there for you the whole time. In the meantime, I wish you all the success and I can't wait to hear about your story of Finding love. I'm Carrie Brett and I will be your mentor and friend through this incredible journey.

Speaker 1: 21:47

I agree with you. I think the suit really elevates. We went out to dinner the other night and you had a blazer on. You were still an artist and it was stylish and it was appropriate for you, but it elevated you, you know , today you're , I don't know, I like the T-shirt look and the sunglasses and the whole thing I've got going today. But if you're gonna go on a first date, knowing you Joe, and how many years I've known you when we've had to go to all these events or meetings with the magazine, you always did wear our jacket. Yeah. Because it gave you more authority or something. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 22:23

Yeah. I always felt good wearing a jacket. I don't know why. It just seemed , uh, appropriate for the occasion. I always think it's important to , um, to dress for an occasion, whether it's going to a museum or even on a flight. I used to fly all the time every month to la it was just horrific to see how people dressed on a flight where it used to be a kind of an elegant , uh, thing to do.

Speaker 1: 22:46

I think it's a sign of respect too.

Speaker 2: 22:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:49

I would take the date seriously and throw on that pair of earings or just elevate a little bit. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> rather than my Sporty Spice look or something. <laugh> , you know, <laugh> . So we wanna engage the viewer, and this is branding 1 0 1. It's no different than us moving magazines on a busy street corner in the city of Austin. How do we make them look? How do we stop them in the tracks and how do we get the engagement connect? So tell me some other things as , as far as images for dating apps, low quality images, what I see and I think is a problem is that especially with men, they're a little bit more guilty of the selfies in the gym bathroom. Like they just do things and they don't realize how badly that it's hurting their cause on online dating.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yeah, exactly. I think all too often they're clueless. The selfie thing is, is definitely out.

Speaker 1: 23:52

I agree.

Speaker 2: 23:53

I mean, and that's, that's why the dating coaches , uh, hire people like us. Yeah. I think it's going through a lot of changes now. It probably was okay for a while to do selfies. You know, a lot of the common mistakes are doing selfies with your buddies and , uh,

Speaker 1: 24:06

Props,

Speaker 2: 24:07

Props going fishing or something like that. Right. Which is something your prospective date probably won't, wouldn't wanna share with you, you know, as an activity.

Speaker 1: 24:16

So I'll give an example with you. So you like cars and you love your motorcycle. What if someone didn't wanna go on ? Like, so that could hurt you? Let's just say. Or they'll say, I don't know, I used to just be like, guys on Harley. It gave a different vibe. Yeah . And I just, and I am not taking away from your love of that. I'm just saying there are things that we do that can hurt us in a sense. Well ,

Speaker 2: 24:44

Just to be clear, I don't write Harley's well ,

Speaker 1: 24:46

<laugh> Okay. Fair.

Speaker 2: 24:49

But I , but I think, but I think a car as a prop wouldn't be bad.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Well,

Speaker 2: 24:54

Unless it was a really ostentatious car. But I mean,

Speaker 1: 24:56

Yeah. So do you just value things, flashy things? Like Steven was saying? No ,

Speaker 2: 25:02

But I mean it would suggest, you know, like a road trip. Who doesn't like to do that? That's

Speaker 1: 25:06

Good. That's good. I like that. Okay. So I'm not trying to pick on the men because I think women, the different filters that they would use or showing too much skin or running, hanging out of a jeep in a bikini, those,

Speaker 2: 25:22

But again , that's something you do as a selfie, you know? Right. Photographer wouldn't, you know, allow that.

Speaker 1: 25:27

Right. That's so interesting. Let's talk about the clothes and what you've seen with these guys that Blaine has connected you .

Speaker 2: 25:36

Yeah. Well, in one case, I took my client shopping because I asked for some, you know, preliminary shots so I could tell what he , it was all about. And it was evident that Sartorially, he had no clue. You know, the shirts were just loose and baggy. And so , uh, we went to Bloomingdale's, picked out a few things and uh , he was very game for that. You know, I stress that even with ordinary clothes, sometimes men need to , um, have them tailored because not everyone has the perfect body and tailoring, conceals a lot of flaws. That's right. Like suits do. So it's worth that extra effort. You know, women will take notice, you know ,

Speaker 1: 26:19

They will take notice.

Speaker 2: 26:20

You're attentive to those details. It makes a difference.

Speaker 1: 26:23

It does make a difference. So you went to Bloomingdale's. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Tell me, did this person just not have t-shirts that fit properly? Was it more about the casual wear or more formal?

Speaker 2: 26:34

Uh, both. Both. But , but , but then we were advised not to do the , not to wear, you know ,

Speaker 1: 26:40

Uh , certain things.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Blazers. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:42

Okay.

Speaker 2: 26:43

But even with, I mean even like , um, a polo shirt.

Speaker 1: 26:47

Okay.

Speaker 2: 26:48

You know, which you think you just buy it off the rack. The one he was wearing the color was ridiculous first of all. And then it was just so loosey and, you know, not

Speaker 1: 26:57

Flattering. Yeah. Okay. So you were able to be honest and say, this does not look right

Speaker 2: 27:03

Diplomatically. Like we need to, you know, up your game and explain how that sense of refinement will come through.

Speaker 1: 27:10

Ooh , I like that. Well, this is all important. Do you have a T-shirt that is ironed so that it appears not wrinkled? I mean these are like so basic.

Speaker 2: 27:20

Well, or to another point about T-shirts is that you can buy a Hayes or you can buy Calvin Klein and there's gonna be a big difference in how they fit.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Okay, that's

Speaker 2: 27:29

Good. And especially if you have a body to pull off a jeans and T-shirt, look, it's going to make a big difference to buy an expensive T-shirt rather than three pack for 12 bucks.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Especially for the shoot.

Speaker 2: 27:40

What I'm trying to impart on my clients too is just this is not just for the shoot. You need to think this way going forward.

Speaker 1: 27:47

Right. You need to step into this new elevated you Yeah . And bring that on the date because they're buying that image online. Right.

Speaker 2: 27:54

Otherwise it's false advertising, you know , playing a part for the photographs and then just tossing all that, that away. It makes no sense. And that's part of what Blaine does as a coach too, is trying to put men in a better place mentally that is consistent and they, they go forward with a new way of thinking. I

Speaker 1: 28:14

Think what happens to a lot of these men is that they don't have a lot of luck and they're not presenting well. They don't invest in a coach or a professional photographer with you. You're a stylist and a photographer and an art director. So it's like you've got a lot of different things than say somebody deciding what images to put out there. Right. I think bring in someone like yourself. Bring in someone like me. I spent an awful lot of time on dating apps and I know what's out there. I'm a woman and I dated in my early thirties and then I dated in my early forties and I basically did the same thing because I knew that the imagery was so important. Well , I dated before dating apps , so that's not actually true. But <laugh>. But the image is everything. But I also knew how to get genuine looks from people. And I knew that being authentic really helped you online. We talked about the timeless Chris White tee . We talked about jackets, layering suit versus not suit. What else can men do? Great watch.

Speaker 2: 29:27

Well, I'll tell you what they can, they should not do. Okay. Grown men should stop wearing shorts.

Speaker 1: 29:33

This really bothers

Speaker 2: 29:34

You . It kills me with black socks. <laugh> .

Speaker 1: 29:38

Right. And Crocs.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Yeah. Like men were that do that. I just don't understand it. It's like they were territorially arrested at third grade. At some point you gotta leave behind the shorts. Unless exception would be if you , if you have the body to pull it off and you have like nice Bermuda shorts and dock sides and you're on a boat or something, you know, it's, it's an appropriate place. But seeing guys running around in shorts in the winter, I just don't get it.

Speaker 1: 30:05

You don't get it. You don't like that.

Speaker 2: 30:07

I don't think women do either.

Speaker 1: 30:08

I think people don't understand how much you have to sell yourself in these photographs and how important they are. I think there's a lot of, I don't need to invest. It's fine. My head , the images I'm using are , they're good enough. It's , it is good enough mentality. And I think people spend an awful lot of time and money on these dating apps going out on dates that don't work. I think you gotta spend more time on the photographs.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Yeah . And then they wear a backward baseball cap. Again, something that you should age out of .

Speaker 1: 30:41

I just know how precise you are about detail. And I think people aren't, and, and I think it really matters. It does. We both know when it comes down to a cover image, it is the perfect recipe of details.

Speaker 2: 30:57

Yeah. It all has to come together. And the thing about this is an important detail, but things you don't necessarily notice in person as much are blaring in a photograph and it's still a photograph, a blemish, for example, we're just talking casually. I may not even notice, but in a photograph that's just going to stand out like crazy. That's why you have big details like that. And retouch,

Speaker 1: 31:20

When we're talking about your personal brand or your style, you've got to flaunt what makes you unique. You've got to just be okay with yourself and bring what you got to the table and play up the assets. And if that's your hair, your eyes a great lip gloss, lip gloss is gonna make you younger looking. But again, we both feel that it's confidence, it's in the body language. And that inviting demeanor will contribute to the best version of yourself.

Speaker 2: 31:59

Absolutely. When you think about it, when people are looking for someone to spend time with, it's an investment. So you really have to convince someone who you're hoping to attract that you are worth that investment. Right. Or they're just gonna pass you by.

Speaker 1: 32:14

So they say that people who are athletic and show them doing an activity that portrays that they have a healthy lifestyle. Right. And that's more attractive to somebody. Absolutely. Because they're like, okay, this person or a dog. Yeah . Dog is a sense of responsibility. The dog gets up early, typically has to be walked, has to have structure within the day. Yeah . All of these things give information. It

Speaker 2: 32:47

Means you're a caring, empathetic person. So

Speaker 1: 32:49

It is proven that images with dogs. Yeah . Like you can like lure people. Yeah . I think there's even a dating app called Tin Dog <laugh>. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:59

No , we stress , um, pets in , uh, in our photographs. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 33:03

But don't mislead. If you really are afraid of dogs and you're allergic to dogs, don't just borrow someone's puppy. Right.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Don't rent , rent a dog for the shoot .

Speaker 1: 33:10

Right. <laugh> . Right. That's so interesting. So these are all tips and tricks that can enhance your brand. What are some of the things that you've learned that really stand out that you, that you may not have known because you have this extensive background and imagery and effective presentation, I should say. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> pulling at someone's heartstrings, getting them to connect with that story.

Speaker 2: 33:41

What have I learned? Well,

Speaker 1: 33:43

Is it one and the same? Is it exactly the same as like what we did at the improper in a sense or

Speaker 2: 33:48

No? 'cause typically , um, you know , we were shooting celebrities and athletes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> people are out there in the public. They tended to project

Speaker 1: 33:57

More , they have better clothes, they have more readily

Speaker 2: 33:59

Well , but also they're just more used to being in the public eye

Speaker 1: 34:02

And stepping into their power. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:04

And despite the fact that, you know, celebrities like actors would always come to a shoot express how nervous they were. Right. And at first you'd think, how could that be? You're on TV or you're on a movie, but they're playing roles in a cover shoot and they hide that whatever they're being themselves and they're not used to to doing that. But even with, given that they tend to be more outgoing, a little bit more confident than your average person. 'cause they've have practice in many cases, have done this many times for different publications or whatever. Opposite of that are is our clients that we work with that for many have never done this, have never been done in ,

Speaker 1: 34:44

In a , in a photo shoot environment. A

Speaker 2: 34:46

Professional shoot

Speaker 1: 34:46

Yeah. Environment over . They

Speaker 2: 34:47

Don't know what to do. Right . You know, people don't know what to do with their hands. That's

Speaker 1: 34:51

Right. I was just gonna say

Speaker 2: 34:52

That hands are always the big

Speaker 1: 34:53

Thing. Yeah . Hands are always the big thing. Yeah . I people comment that on , on with me. They're like, boy, you really are psychotic about the hands, but it's important.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Yeah . And one of the things people do, and this was true of celebrities too, it's out of nervousness. People tend to clench their hands. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so in a picture that you know is full figure or three quarters , the hands always look like a , a club , you

Speaker 1: 35:15

Know ?

Speaker 2: 35:15

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . It's not appealing to have your, your hands, you know, closed. Right . Uh , having di your digits splayed out open, it's much more relaxed looking and elegant. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . So it's those kinds of details that you really have to be watching out for. And you know, as well as I do, there are so many moving parts to a photograph as you're taking them so many things to be conscious of, aware. Right. You know, the context, the background, you know, stray hair, they have something hanging out of their nose. Yeah. Right,

Speaker 1: 35:46

Right, right.

Speaker 2: 35:46

Yeah. Which you can always fix that. But you know, there are just so many details that often when you're looking at the edit , you go , oh, how did I miss that?

Speaker 1: 35:54

But it's our job to see it and catch it

Speaker 2: 35:58

In the moment. There's just a lot to , um, manage, be aware of. Yeah. And then while you're doing that, you're, you have to be engaged with the , uh, the subject. Give them good feedback, let them know they're doing great. You know, the minute you go silent, they feel something's wrong.

Speaker 1: 36:15

I had to learn that. And I think both of us are the same. We take in a lot of details and we tend to be quiet sometimes when we're, we're we are thinking, we're just thinking. Yeah . That's all we're doing. We're trying to get a good sense of that person. You're looking

Speaker 2: 36:27

At the lights and how, how that's working .

Speaker 1: 36:28

Yeah. We're just trying to pick up their mannerisms and No , what I originally thought I was gonna do with this person, I'm not gonna do with this person now . Whatever it may be. We need a minute to process. And, and I noticed and I stopped doing that, or I would make a note to say to different people when I'm looking at the back of the camera, it's not anything you're doing wrong. I'm just trying to see how I can improve upon the light because I don't know exactly how the light may fall or where we need to fill, whether it's shadows from a glass , from eyeglasses or whatever. And I just sit , I make sure that, because I notice when I took that pause to look at the back of the camera, all the air went on the balloon.

Speaker 2: 37:15

And that's the other thing you're trying to evaluate from like a two inch screen. That's right. And often in daylight where it makes it hard to see, you've gotta make your determination really quickly, otherwise, you know , they lose focus,

Speaker 1: 37:27

They lose focus and then they lose their confidence. Yeah . And then you cannot get that back. Right. So let's just say I was doing a podcast interview and something happened where I have to stop the interview because say there's a accident, something happens. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Okay . I try not to stop it no matter what because then the vibe changes. Yeah. And the connection changes. And then they get in their head for that one split second. And if they do, then it's not the same. Right. And you , and once you start to lose the person you're working with, it's very difficult to get back. It's a dance that you've gotta really master over the years. Yeah . Just like when you would show up on a shoot, it would change the pressure level for maybe the subject because it would be like, who is this person? And I would be like, oh God, Joe's here. Okay, we gotta get this done. But <laugh> no, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2: 38:24

But no, you're not

Speaker 1: 38:26

<laugh> <laugh> . So true <laugh> , lot of pressure working for you over the years, but it's about the communication. And I think you mentioned something and I , I wanna close with this 'cause I think it's really important. You made a point to say it's so important to just be yourself. So what tip would you give the listener that they could do when deciding to do a professional headshot? Whether for dating, for work, what tip would you give somebody to step into their power, be more confident, and I think also very importantly, be themselves.

Speaker 2: 39:04

It's probably a a lot online , uh, in YouTube where you could learn what it's like to be in front of a camera if you haven't done it.

Speaker 1: 39:13

Right. That's a good, I've never heard that before. That's

Speaker 2: 39:15

Good. I think it's gonna be very instructive because one of the things, for example, the main difference between a model and an ordinary person. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So when you're photographing a model, you don't have to tell them what to do, they're just giving it to you. They're just moving around and they're giving you looks and changing body shapes and angles and you're just , you're just following them around. And it's great. Yes . It makes it easy. That's

Speaker 1: 39:39

Right.

Speaker 2: 39:40

With a an ordinary subject, you're kind of expected to tell them every moment what to do. Right . And that , that often creates a unnatural stiffness. Yes. And the minute you stop doing that, they, they just give you the same thing over and over

Speaker 1: 39:56

Or they get disappointed. So one example would be, okay, someone wants to put their hand under their chin or near their shoulder. Well , well, I don't want their hand to be as the same size as their head. So I want, I want it to be natural, but I want it to be pulled back a bit. Right. So if I'm like, pull your hand back , tilt your head and you, you feel like you're disappointing the photographer, you have to say it the right way.

Speaker 2: 40:24

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you can't be , um, you know, diminishing about it. So one, for example, one of the things that with shooting men, invariably, you know, we're trying to get a combination of full length three quarters closeups. So we start out with pullback shots. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know , three quarters full length. Invariably they stand their

Speaker 1: 40:46

Passport style,

Speaker 2: 40:46

Stiff , stiff legged, both knees locked, you know , hands down. And I have to tell them, you know, shift your way to one leg. That's great. You know , give a little body language. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> give a little s-curve in your body. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , things like that. So I should probably do more of that in advance prior to the shoot. I think

Speaker 1: 41:04

It's good just to have a conversation about this. I think there's more that we can learn just by talking about this, that we can better communicate to the people that we photograph as well.

Speaker 2: 41:14

But it's also probably unnatural for a lot of men too , you know, who don't have the , the gift of knowing how to hold their body. It's like walking, you know, it sounds like everybody walks. Right. But some people do it with style and grace and others, you know. Right . Look more awkward.

Speaker 1: 41:30

It's really interesting because I don't think it's just men. I think most people don't like to be photographed. Right. And I think that's why they don't do it. I think they have to get desperate enough and not have the results that they want online to try something different.

Speaker 2: 41:46

Except in many cases they do like being photographed just by themselves.

Speaker 1: 41:52

So this is really fun. I learned a lot today, <laugh> . Oh , good. And I think I, I've already learned everything I can learn from you, but in a sense it's what's , oh , never. What's interesting is that the female and male perspective when it comes to these images online and online dating. So where can people find out more about these headshots that you're doing for online dating profiles and find out more about you. And I'm so thrilled to have this come full circle and have you on a shot at Love Today.

Speaker 2: 42:21

Yeah. I really enjoyed it. I'm glad you, glad you asked. Thank you so much. Yeah. They can find me online. My primary site is j Heron portrait All one word.com. Perfect. And Heron is spelled H-E-R-O-U-N.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Great. And what about Instagram?

Speaker 2: 42:39

J Heron .

Speaker 1: 42:40

Okay.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Or it's maybe J underscore Heron . I don't

Speaker 1: 42:43

Remember . I think it's j Heron <laugh> . Okay.

Speaker 2: 42:44

You'll find me there . Yeah . I

Speaker 1: 42:45

Think you put me on Instagram now that I think of , think about it. But oh , amazing. Well, I admire your talent and I value your friendship and I'm just so thankful for your time today. So thanks so much, Joe.

Speaker 2: 42:58

Pleasure was mine. Thank you so much .

Speaker 1: 43:04

And for now, this week shot at Love dating tips that are inspired by our guests , Joe Herron. Number one, when creating your online dating profile, don't be afraid to take risks and be open to trying new things. Put on something new that you wouldn't normally wear. And it doesn't need to be clothing. It could be a new shade of lipstick. Number two, often people style themselves better than a stylist. So have some faith in your judgment when preparing for a date. If you're unsure, run your clothing options by a friend who has a great sense of fashion. Put your outfit together in advance. It'll cut down on stress and it's one less thing to worry about. Number three, your leading photograph is 90% of your initial success online. Take that extra step, purchase a new outfit, invest in hair and makeup , and hire a professional photographer who can capture the best version of you. I hope you found some of my tips helpful this week. This is what Shot at Love is here for, to help you find love, keep up the commitment to yourself and commit to helping someone else by sharing this podcast. Stay safe and stay tuned for more episodes. And if you like this show, please subscribe and leave a five star review. I'm Carrie Brett , and we'll see you next time.