How To Be The CEO Of Your Love Life, Not An Unpaid Intern With Love U's Evan Marc Katz

Today we're joined by the Trailblazer himself, Evan Mark Katz. Back in 2003, Evan made history as a world's first dating coach, specializing in helping smart and successful women find lasting love with four published books and a Love You podcast. With over 2 million downloads, Evan's impact and expertise hasn't gone unnoticed. He's been featured in hundreds of media outlets from today to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. CNN once called them a serial data . But Evan's Journey would serve a higher purpose to decipher the male mind, decode their actions, and uncover what they truly want. His mission to empower women to raise their standards and never settle for anything less. This episode is for the incredible women out there who've got it all, except love. I'm Carrie Brett , and shot at Love starts. Now. Throughout our conversation, we'll discuss Evan's coaching philosophy and learn how to break free from the cycle of attracting the wrong men. It's all about finding not just any partner, but the right one for a fulfilling long-term relationship. Evan's community building efforts have seen over 13,000 women graduate from Love You and today he'll share how to become the CEO of your love life and put us on the path to finding high quality commitment oriented partners. So without further ado, welcome Evan Mark Kaz.

Thank you for having me, Kerry . Really excited to be here.

I'm excited to have you. You are such a trailblazer. You started this 20 years ago, which I wish I knew you back then because my life would've been a lot easier, <laugh> . Pretty impressive. So what gave you your start ? Tell us a little bit about your backstory. What first ignited your passion for helping women and studying relationships?

Necessity is the mother of invention, right? So , uh, I have a cousin who has many rare diseases and has been in and out of hospitals her whole life. She went into medicine when she got through her tough teenage years. We all know people who , uh, went to therapy and took an interest in that and became therapists and social workers. So for me, I was probably just working out my own stuff, which is where the passion came from. Things that you put a lot of time and energy into to that are really important to you are where you're gonna focus your energies. So for me, I was a Hollywood screenwriter who couldn't sell a screenplay. I put all my love into that. That was my twenties, was writing movies that didn't sell in Hollywood and coming really close to success without actually making any money. So I took a job just to pay my bills as I went through film school, answering phones in an online dating company. And after a year of it, I was like, oh my God, I gotta write a book about this. And this is, now, it's 2003. Online dating is going mainstream for the first time. New York Times Magazine wrote a piece in August of 2000 , uh, and three by Jennifer Egan, the Pulitzer Prize winning author, in which I was quoted. And that is where my career started. I wrote a book called I Can't Believe I'm buying this book, A Common Sense Guide to Successful Internet Dating when no one else was admitting that they were doing it. And I wrote a funny how, how-to guide and I dropped out of film school and I became the dating guy . Did I know that 20 years later I was still gonna be the dating guy? I did not, but I took advantage of an opportunity. And while I started as a 31-year-old amateur with no relationship experience whatsoever, I grew into someone who was worth listening to. Even if I didn't start that way,

You did have a lot of experience in the field, and CNN called you a serial dater . So you used all that expertise. I like how you say that you portray <laugh> the male population and you really are passionate about helping women . And I think it's really impressive. And for some reason, you know, this is an unlikely profession for a man per se. But you just, you have a really great way of helping women. And I, and I applaud you for that.

Well , I thank you. I mean, really, it , I would do this for men. I get a lot of women who are like, who the hell are you to mansplain love to me? And I, I get that instinct. At the same time I hung out my shingle as a dating coach 20 years ago. 80% of my clients were women. Men need help. They don't ask for it. And I think it's a flaw, but it's not a flaw that I could single-handedly correct by foisting my wisdom on them . So if 80% of your clients are women, you probably want to focus your attention on women, even if indeed men need help.

Well, I think women are more open. You're right. They're more open to say, this is not working. I keep pulling in the same kind of guy. I keep making the same mistakes where men are not gonna be as vocal about it. And so you talk about the different styles of men and women dating, and I find it very fascinating. And the other piece that I find very interesting is that you coach smart and successful women. That is the majority of your clientele. Why is it that it seems people who are the perfect package, who have it all have the hardest time, are , are we like too smart for our own good? What , what do you think it is

That's , uh, you open up a big can of worms there , carry out <laugh> , how deep you want to dive into that? There's, there's a number of reasons for it. The easiest ones are the ones that have nothing to do with you, right? It's, well, if I'm in the 95th percentile, I am beautiful and I am Ivy League educated, and I make six figures and I own my own home. Well, by those measures, if you think you need to date the male version of you, well that leaves less than 5% of men. Right there we have an issue is that if you think you need to date a guy who's above you, right, taller than you, smarter than you're richer than you, funnier than you, which is a self-imposed standard, well that , that eliminates 95% of guys. Then there's the fact that a good portion of those guys will say 50% of those guys don't want to date the female version of themselves. That has to factor into the equation. And then there's the other piece, which is sometimes when you get the male version of you, there's a lot of friction, there's a lot of headbutting. And if you are a smart, strong, successful woman who's dated men who are equally high value, your equivalent, you've probably discovered all of these things. There's a small supply, right? Some of the best men that you think on paper don't necessarily want you in return. They might date a first grade teacher. She's a little, little , uh, more easygoing, right? That might be his choice, right? And then you find the guy who, who also travels a lot and spends a lot of time at work and is opinionated. And then you discover not always an easy relationship. So there's a whole bunch of factors as to why it's hard to be a smart, strong , successful woman . It's why I focus my energies on helping them make different da dating and relationship choices that get better results.

So I like this because when you talk about success, success doesn't necessarily mean financial because you may hate your job. You may be shackled to your desk, you may have no personal time, you may be under so much pressure. It's proven that money doesn't necessarily make you happy. Who's to say that special person is gonna make you happy? What's your advice for people who are really successful? 'cause I have that too. I have very successful clients as well. What's your rule of thumb as far as dating someone who doesn't make as much money as you?

That could be its own hour too . <laugh>.

I'm really going for it today.

No, it's okay. You're asking a really, really good, important questions and I'll, I'll do the thumbnail sketch of it. Imagine a man, and it shouldn't be that, that hard. Imagine a man who makes $300,000 a year. Does he need to date a woman who makes $301,000 a year? No, that doesn't exist because he has his own money. He can date for other reasons. He can date for love. So does he need to choose someone who makes more than him? No, he, he's not threatened by a successful woman, but his pool of applicants is much bigger than a woman who thinks if I make $300,000, he has to make $301,000. And that is a flaw in our thinking that almost implies that we didn't go through a second wave of feminism and that women don't have more college educations <laugh> . And the wage gap hasn't been completely reduced. Here's the beautiful thing. If you're a woman and you make a really good living, money doesn't matter as much. The only reason it does matter is if you want to quit your job completely and have babies and have him support your lifestyle as it was , that is the only way that should make a big factor. Now, again, I know this is sometimes hard to hear. This is exactly how mandate , I met my wife. She's making 55, $60,000 no insurance for 15 years. That was, that was the job she chose. I chose her because I didn't need her to support me. That is a luxury that you have. So the question isn't, if I'm in the 95th percentile of earnings, should I date a man in the 97th percentile? It's what is a reasonable trade off . And too many women have dated guys who are losers and slackers and unmotivated, and they say, oh, guy's telling me to date some man child, right? Or , I'm gonna be his mommy. Not saying that at all. <laugh> , there's plenty of good, hardworking, decent men whose jobs just didn't top out at the same income. So if you make $300,000 a year, God bless you. You date a guy who makes 75, you just got a $75,000 raise. It's lovely. It's a winning combination. So you shouldn't have to support someone. He needs to be able to support himself, but he does not have to make more money than you, which is a story that we inherited from our parents' generations

Or Disney <laugh>, that someone's gonna come like a prince and make your life that much better.

It's not that it doesn't happen, right? Again, I'm not claiming to be the prince. My, I'm fortunate that I make a good enough living that my wife left her 16 year career and then chose to be a stay-at-Home Mom. A small percentage of people could get away with that. But if you're a career woman and that's a thing that you love doing and you're not gonna give it up, does he need to make more than you? No, I'm , I mean, there's plenty of couples that are just dual income and he makes one 20 and she makes one 40. And it doesn't matter because they build a life together. It's a community. It's no one's keeping score. Can you imagine a man keeping score and saying , Hey, Christmas is coming up and taking my family to Hawaii. I can't believe I have to buy my wife a ticket. That's ridiculous. Why should I have to buy my wife a ticket? Women think if they have to buy a ticket for their husbands. What a mooch. What a slacker. That's hypocrisy.

Well , it's interesting because again, we keep talking about how men think and how women think, and it's very different. And if we don't talk about that, we're gonna be confused a lot. And I'm sure your clients come to you and are struggling. What would the downside be of dating someone who is smart, wealthy, and handsome? And I think you've touched upon it before where you said their dating pool is a lot bigger.

Everybody wants to be told what they want to hear, right? And it , it's always challenging to have someone who's like, I'm, I'm as neutral as they come. I , I'm a man who happens to spend his whole life advocating for women. I'm not tone deaf to what women are looking for, what they expect. I don't excuse bad male behavior. If anything, I'm just trying to portray reality as it is. And we could talk about biology and we could talk about sociology and nature versus nurture. There's a whole different bunch of different ways of looking at it. But at the end of the day, we all observe the same thing. If you go online and you swipe left on 99% of men and you only find 1% of men attractive, so does every other woman on Bumble <laugh> finds the same. 1% attractive, right? And so what if you noticed listener about men who are gorgeous? Well, sometimes gorgeous men are players. Sometimes gorgeous men are narcissists. Sometimes gorgeous men like to think the idea that an open relationship should be on the table. Sometimes they're less likely to settle down. Sometimes they haven't developed other parts of their personality because women have thrown themselves at them for so long that they haven't had to be kind or empathetic or sensitive to other people's needs. You've seen this in dating some gorgeous men. And we could go down the line. Let's think of really intelligent men. Intelligence is an aphrodisiac. Most of my clients are really bright. They're like guys who are smarter than they are. I don't blame them for finding it attractive. What have you noticed about brilliant men? Stubborn, egocentric. Condescending. Don't want to hear your opinion. Don't want your input. Might be a little socially awkward in their head. Anxious filled with conflict because they're trying to impose their will on the world. Look at our billionaires. Do you wanna be Mrs. Elon Musk? I don't. So there's a cost too brilliant to some degree. And there's even a cost too successful, financially successful. A guy who's a self-made millionaire, he's probably not home at five. He's not gonna be able to come to the kids' play. He might travel for 15, 20 weeks a year. He might put work first and your relationship second. He might think he's the son around, which you have to revolve . Instead of him making you the center of his universe, he may be the kind of person who steps on people's heads to get ahead. 'cause it's always about the bottom line and the almighty dollar. These are the stereotypes that have a basis in truth that you've seen by dating rich men. Here. Here's a tennis bracelet. Don't complain. I didn't do anything for you. It's not that it's one size fits all . It's not this applies to every single rich guy or smart guy or cute guy. But if you're a woman, you had to have noticed some of what I just talked about, right, Gary ?

Absolutely. I mean, I, I'm thinking about this where I have been in the celebrity worlds for about 30 years, photographing them. So I know the wives and the girlfriends of the athletes and the actors. And there's always a cost. There's always a cost. There's always a movie. They're in another country. They're gone a hundred and however many games, there's a cost

And nobody calculates that cost. They think, oh, if I get the guy, the guy that everybody will envy. And we could take the nice photos of the nice car and the nice house and the nice vacation and the beautiful kids, right? But when you're at home alone, mm-Hmm , <affirmative> wondering, I got all this. Why am I feel so lonely? Why do I feel so disconnected? Well, it's because you chose that over connection, over presence. The greatest gift anybody could give you is their time. We don't think of it like that, especially in a world where we are constantly comparing and contrasting ourselves to others. So part of my love You course is helping women choose men who make them a priority. <laugh> , it's a bonus. If he's rich, it's a bonus to if he's six three. I'm not anti attraction. I'm not anti-money. I'm not anti charisma. I'm saying you need to have your very basic emotional needs met for second, third.

And I've had lots of conversations with friends of mine who date billionaires and they'll say to me, Carrie , 'cause I'll say, isn't there some kind of arc ? Or I just wanna know. And they'll say, I wish this made me happy. Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . But it doesn't. So it's so interesting because people, those are the first things I want tall. I want good looking . I want must be really successful. How about he puts you first and text you first thing in the morning and there's follow through .

You landed on something that's so important. I'm going to gently interrupt because I, I don't wanna let this podcast escape without saying it out loud and clear. What people do compromise on and what people should compromise on tend to be two different things. Which is to say that if you're a woman, you're probably have been compromising on the wrong things. You won't compromise on height. Five nine is out. You won't compromise on weight. Oh, he's a middle-aged man. He is got a little bit of a belly. I don't, I don't find that attractive. I take great care of myself. We can go down the list. We won't compromise on height, weight, age, education, income, religion, politics. What will we compromise on all the time? Character, kindness, consistency, communication, commitment. Those five things come first. Character, kindness, consistency, communication, commitment. And if you're missing any one of them , your relationship won't look good no matter how tall, dark, handsome and Richie is.

So you talk about this compromise, I want you to talk about the difference between settling and compromising. You offer guidance to women so that they don't compromise their core values to get the relationship that they desire. In the end. This must be one of the big ones that you've gotta do the tough love and push people along to, to figure out exactly what you're saying.

I certainly don't see this as tough love. It's just love.

Mm-Hmm .

And I don't know anything about you Kerry , but, and if you choose to divulge anything and you look back on your previous relationships, I don't know where you are now really. I assume I know nothing. Think about the men that you love the most you had the most significant relationships with. Why did those relationships end? Did it end? 'cause he was five nine. Did it end because of his little belly? No. Right? Why did those relationships end your most significant ones, the three men you love the most? Carey , why do those things fall apart?

Well, I was looking at your Instagram page and one thing, you said something, if they left you then they weren't for you. I think there's so much truth to that, that oftentimes people hold onto something that really isn't theirs to begin with. And that person had no intent. And it can happen over a decade, a couple of months, a couple of years, they'll stay for the time being, but they won't commit long term . And that lack of commitment doesn't mean that you're not a catch. Doesn't mean that you don't check all the boxes. That's something internal within someone else.

So that's part of the five CSS commitment. You could have the world's greatest guide , but if you want to build a life with someone, make it official, get married, buying resources, go to each other's family holidays, be the couple, we wheeling each other to chemo. When you're in your eighties, if you want that and he's got one foot out the door, the best he could do is move in with you so you can take care of him. But he was never gonna propose. He is never gonna put you on the house or the will or you are agreeing to that. Right? And so in love you terminology, you are the intern, you're turning him into the CEO . And my job is to turn women into the CEOs of their love life and see which intern wants the job the most. And women have given tend to give these gorgeous guys , uh, most impressive guys way too much power over them. Or to the point where you stay in a relationship where you're unhappy. What's the difference between settling and compromising is how you feel about it . Afterwards, you settle your way into misery. You compromise your way into happiness. Your work is a compromise. Your home is a compromise. The city you live in or compromise , your friends and family are compromises. Why is this the one arena where compromise is the bad word ? Well,

Because the person who's compromising is the person who's the intern, like you just said. And I think that that is one of the best things I've heard is that women give their power away. They make the other guy the good looking guy, the successful guy, the CEO , and they're the intern,

The unpaid intern. You

Do it the unpaid, right? The one doing laundry and right . And going without and twisting themselves into a pretzel. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> and all of those things. And when you have a driver and a passenger in a car, in a relationship, you're in trouble because there can , there has to be two people who show up who commit to each other. And if you don't have that, then you really have a house of cards.

I want to emphasize, you know, you you , you brought up , uh, compromising versus settling. I know when I say some of these things that people tend to say, oh, he's telling me to settle. And that's the first reaction is he says, it's okay to date someone who makes less money. He wants me to settle. It's okay to date someone who's shorter . He wants me to settle. I have no interest in you settling. If you feel like you're settling, you're not gonna have a happy marriage. So I'm not asking you to settle. I would not ask you to do anything that was not gonna make you happy. Think my point is by convincing yourself, you can only date the 1% of the 1% of men, most of whom turn , turn out to be narcissistic shitheads. Mm . Maybe if you opened it up to top 10% of men, not slumming it, top 10% of men, you're an Ivy League school, you could take 10% of your applicants. So if you're open to top 10% of men, and that doesn't mean they're all six foot four 'cause that's the 99th percentile and they're not all millionaires 'cause that's the 99th percentile. But just like normal, regular, good, upper middle class educated men, it's literally everybody I know falls in that category and we're all happily married. Good husbands. Like there is absolutely a lane that you may not be exploring because it doesn't look the way you thought it should look. And if you could kinda let go of that image and pay attention to how a man treats you and how he makes you feel, that opens up the whole world. And that is what, what coaching's about. I mean, these ideas are are useful. It's really hard to execute them when you're wired a certain way. Maybe you're wired to find emotionally unavailable and attractive because your father was emotionally unavailable and you were always trying to win his love. And that's the taste you've had in guys your entire life. Well you gotta break your taste. 'cause it's easy to complain. All guys are emotionally unavailable, all guys are cheaters. No, it's just the lane of men that you continually choose. Yeah. And it says nothing about all men. No,

It's true because the common denominator at the end of the day is you. And it's a hard pill to swallow and it's a hard place to come from and acknowledge, but it's such you free once you realize that I'm the one wasting time on dead end guys. I'm the one pulling in the same familiar patterns. I'm the one settling for a situation. Ship situation. Ships don't have a happy ending. They never do.

By definition, they don't

Right by the word itself. <laugh> , right? That ship needs to sail. <laugh> , what would you tell women who are listening who have been burnt and broken hearted and are frustrated and they know somewhere down deep that they need to stop accepting this? What advice would you give them to either navigate away from it or to do some internal work to stop pulling it in? The same in,

I think most people are focused on internal work. So I try to focus on other things , right? There's therapy and then there's coaching Therapy is about your past. How'd your parents mess you up? How'd your ex mess you up? Coaching's about the present and the future. I only work on, okay, today what are we gonna do differently than we did yesterday? Because the choices of your past, you don't have to repeat them. If you've gone 50 years without ever being properly loved, well that doesn't mean you have to go the next 50 years without it. You , you could change at any point in time, right? But it has to be a conscious choice, right? It doesn't just happen. And we could play the , uh, I can't help what I'm attracted to. I'm attracted to bad boys. Okay, well, how long do you want to double down on that? Uh , how many bad boys do you want to date until you realize you don't reform bad boys? You need a guy who has integrity. You need a guy who values you. You need a guy who listens to you. You need a guy who's sensitive to your emotional cues. And these are not things you even look for on Bumble. So that's really the hard part, is the way we date is so attraction and performance based and has very little to do with the things that we're talking about. Character, kindness, consistency. You can't tell that stuff upfront . And so we swipe left on a probably a good bunch of decent guys who if you met him in real life, you might actually like him . But online there's always another cuter , taller, richer guy around the corner.

How great would it be to find the love of your life, the man of your dreams. Do you believe online dating would work if you had the right tools to be successful? Well, I have exciting news. I've created your best shot at Love Masterclass. I cannot wait to share with you what's worked for me in my life and for many of my clients that have helped over the years. If you enroll in this class, you have a winning mindset and believe in getting help before you start something new. If you're ready to see changes in your dating life and wanna take action, check out my free webinar@shotatlove.co. If you decide you're going to choose another path that you're worth it and you're willing to enroll in the masterclass, you can also register@shotatlove.co. I designed this masterclass specifically for you to be successful. Please know that everything you're going to learn in these nine modules and six coaching calls has been carefully curated for you so you can gain the success you truly want. I will be there for you the whole time. In the meantime, I wish you all the success and I can't wait to hear about your story of finding love. I'm Carrie Brett and I will be your mentor and friend through this incredible journey. When you are gonna get to the point when you realize that bad boys will put you in the grave faster than any addiction, any, anything, I mean, it is the most toxic, crazy making cycle. It really is

For me. I have really good guy radar when people come to me, <laugh>, they don't make any of the the old mistakes. So whatever that pull think of it like , um, this isn't the best comparison. It's just an easy one. Alcoholism, when someone's going through a 12 step AA thing, they may still steal the pull to grab a drink. They choose not to Mm-Hmm . 'cause they know the consequence of that down the road isn't good. But it's not that they've lost the impulse. So we can say, oh, I'm really attracted to X and X isn't good for me. I'm choosing not to do it. And that was a big pivot point for me. I had a type , we all have a type. When I was a single guy, I liked women who were like sassy, charismatic actress types. I live in LA so you meet women with these huge personalities and these big dreams, ton of talent, and they're emotional messes, but boy, they're intoxicating. I remember I went out with someone who was an actress. She did musical theater. She was sexy. We, we made out on that first date and I was like all heart a flutter. And I was like, ah , dude, you're doing it again. And I never contacted her again, even though it was an amazing first date. I was like, this is where it stops.

Mm .

Three months later, I met my wife.

Well then you did a lot of work because like that great analogy of the alcoholic, there was a consequence. And I hear this from so many guests that have had on my show from la they talk about what it's like there. And like you said, everyone's beautiful and well dressed and, but there's a lot of people who are lonely and empty and feel not so great even though they have all those external things.

That's right. Again, there's tons of , uh, sociological studies, longitudinal studies. You know, the , the famous Harvard one went for 75 years. Arthur C. Brooks writes about in his latest book, from Strength to Strength, when people ask What is happiness? He says, it's love. Full stop . Nothing's more important than love to give, to receive, to know you are safe, heard, understood, loved unconditionally, the way a parent loves a child. If you have gone your entire life without being loved by a man that way, you have to do something different to produce a different result. Totally. We could say, oh, it's men, Evan , you don't know what it's like out there. You don't know the choice of men. I do. I'm a dating coach woman . I know exactly what it's like out there for women. And I will acknowledge 90% of guys not worth your time. It's not in your head. You're not crazy. You're right. Let's lop off 90% of guys. Let's pay attention to 10%. And if you can pay attention to 10% and you can get yourself one day a week online, certainly the way I teach people to do. So, you're gonna find a guy you like in the next six months. And that's just math. It's a very, very achievable goal. But if you're going through the definition of insanity and you're swiping endlessly and texting endlessly and going out on blind dates with randos and wondering, why does this suck so much? You're the common denominator.

But what you said earlier, I think is really poignant. You said there's therapy and then there's coaching. And so I heard you say on your podcast, you're listening to podcasts, but the podcasts aren't making you accountable. So you're gathering a bunch of free information.

Right? And it's lovely. And sometimes it's educational and sometimes it's validating. And there's a reason I go on podcasts like yours to get this message out. Um, and if I could share something that on a dime changes someone's life, oh my God, I'm the intern. I give men too much power. I love it . Oh, I'm the one who overvalues money and undervalues kindness and consistency. Great. That's useful. The question is, is it something you just store in your head or is it something that you actually live your life like that in the future? Every woman in the world knows how to lose weight. It's not a secret. Everybody knows how to do it. Most people struggle with their weight. So this isn't a knowledge thing, this is a discipline thing. Mm . And so that's what coaching does. It gives people the structure and the discipline. Like joining a Jenny Craig or joining some bootcamp at the gym is gonna give you better results than I read the article on Five Minute Abs and Shape Magazine. And I'm gonna cut out that page and I'm gonna do it twice. And then I'm gonna <laugh> , I'm gonna go back to the, the way I did it before. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And that's the hard part, is information in and of itself is useless without the application of that information. Well,

Here's the thing. You've been doing this for 20 years and from what I gather, you're really, you're really good at identifying people's blocks because you're in this space all day every day . I just had a client of mine write me two nights ago and she said, you were right. <laugh> , you're right. Not to waste my time. You know, you're not going to make these men better. You're not gonna change someone who's narcissistic and going around causing a bunch of pain. You're not gonna change that. My advice is don't get even. Don't, you know, forget it. Move forward. And how do you make peace with yourself and move forward in a positive way? The only reason why I can give that advice is because I've gotten the T-shirt <laugh> , and I've done all of these things so I can identify it in someone else very quickly. That's why when I said, oh, I can't find my notes, I can't find my questions, it didn't matter because I live in this space all day long. We know the , the common problems that people have and we can have a conversation about it because it's fun and we like helping people. And it's rewarding 'cause it's painful, it's painful to break that pattern of of the wrong guys. But it's really rewarding once you do break that pattern and you pull in healthier dynamics.

I don't put down single people. I couldn't put down single people. They're my clientele. Sometimes single people get very defensive, right ? Oh, smug married guy. Here's the justification for the perception of smug married people. I don't know anybody who's happily married who would train places with a single person. It's not that, you know, marriage is perfect. If there's anything wrong with the freedom of being single, doing what you want, when you want, not being accountable to anybody. There's definitely has its virtues. But if indeed love and connection is everything, you can go to all these countries by yourself. You can renovate your house by yourself, building a life, sharing memories, having someone to take care of you , um, to lean on, to amplify the good and take the sting off the bad. There's a reason people come back to love, even though they've been burned a million times. Because when you get it right, it's really worth it. You know, I say this is a guy who started, you know, and you mentioned, I , you know, I had no, no qualifications to do this. I was just a single guy who'd been on 300 online dates. My , the title of my blog was Advice from a single dating expert who , who knows more about dating than a guy who's still dating. That was my way of justifying my singledom. And then I met my wife about five years into this career and she kind of became my north star. All this trial and error and experience taught me, oh, here's where I was the common denominator in all the choices I made. Here's why I had to go through so many dates. Here's what my blind spots were. Here's how you could avoid those blind spots too. And so I always speak as a peer to my clients, smart, strong, successful women who have everything but the man . It is a painful place to be. 'cause this is the one problem that you could stare at and not be able to solve yourself.

Mm . It is difficult. But you said it yourself when you mentioned your wife, that she's your north star. And when you do get it right, that's not a lie. That's the truth. And I can hear it on your podcast where you're like, give a review. I'll read it to my wife at night. You , you can tell that you're someone who appreciates your wife and a relationship and being in it. I mean, it's like, what do you hold as your highest success really?

It's funny 'cause I've been doing this for a really long time and I've heard people complain about how I talk about my wife. It's usually for the role of teaching. I talk about what I compromised on for love, right? And it sounds like I'm therefore diminishing her instead of it just being a real clear-eyed view. If my wife , my my wife wanted a tall guy. Her , her boyfriend before me was six seven. I'm five nine. Looks like she, she settled. We could play this both ways. Everybody, any happily married couple gave up something to get something. But what they gave up is minor compared to what they got. And so, yes, I revere my wife. We just celebrated our 15th anniversary last month, and she's my everything. Like I get teary, teary-eyed talking about it. If anything, I , I'm evangelical. I want everybody to have some form of what I have because it didn't come easy . Uh , and because you don't have to go on 300 dates to get there. I could accelerate that process and help you dial in the thing that you've been doing wrong for the , your entire life. And we could do that in a matter of months.

I'm all for the coaching. Like I said, if I knew you in 2003, I would've hired you. My life would've <laugh> gone a lot easier.

Where are you right now in your relationship journey ?

So, I've been in a relationship, I live with my boyfriend of eight years and I met one on Tinder. I'm a Tinder success story. And he's amazing. I talk about him often on the show. I had to look for something different.

Tell us .

He was different in the sense that he was soak. You talk about the , these things, the compassion and the caring. That was very unfamiliar to me because I had a whole life of bad boys, really. And they're exciting and they're fun and all the things.

Yep .

And my boyfriend is, is handsome. You know, you can have handsome, you know, I had a thing when I first started dating where I kept dating guys that were six four who didn't want a long-term relationship. I was great to pass time with for about three months. So I had to lose the six four <laugh>.

All these things that I, I I'm sort of coldly logical about. You could Google them. The percentage of men who are six four is literally 1% of men. 50% of men are under five nine. So you , and if you, so if you make six feet your arbiter, you're lopping off 86% of men at six feet tall. So now our dating pool is 14% of men. If we're starting at six feet tall, now let's add in college education. That's 35% of men. Multiply it by 0.35 . Now let's add in six figures. That's about 10% of men multiply it by 0.10 and we could go on and on and on. And now our dating pool is 0.0001% . And we haven't even factored in whether that guy's nice or relationship oriented or has a sense of humor or has a criminal record or is attracted to you. We're just starting at 0.0001% . This is what happens when we date that way. And so in my methodology of dating, we screen in, is this picture cute enough? Is this profile decent enough? Have a conversation with them . If the conversation goes well, set up a phone call. The phone call goes, well set up a first date. The first date goes, well set up a second date. But you can't choose your husband from a photo on an app

And also take it from someone who's a professional photographer. Your profile is not the person. It's not even remotely the person. I almost lost out on my boyfriend because I was too judgmental on the photographs.

Right? Of course. And, and it's easy to , because the effort that it takes to meet someone is the swipe of a thumb back. Again, I'm, I'm 51 years old, but I remember the pre-internet days. You'd have to go up and talk to someone and have a good conversation to be charming enough and cute enough that at the end of an hour you can get her phone number on a napkin. That was an accomplishment. Now, a guy could get the equivalent of 10 napkins in an hour just by swiping on a hundred women. So we've lowered the bar for human connection and wonder why is everybody so such a dick? Why is, why does he treat me so impersonally? Why does he say such boring things? Why? 'cause he's also getting rejected by 90, 95% of women. So everybody's swiping and texting and there's no real human connection. So we need to figure out a way to make this more personal, to bring back some of the, ironically, the values of the eighties and nineties. <laugh> dating was a little bit better before apps and I think everybody knows it. So I'm not telling you to swear off the apps. I'm telling you to use the apps as a means of creating connection and make enough trusted connection with someone prior to the first date so that when you do go on a first date, it's comfortable. It feels like a second date.

Okay, so I have a question which I think might help women. Like you said, online dating is more complicated than ever before. There's plenty of options, there's a lot of speed to it, there's a lot of benefits, but there's a lot of things that you have to learn how to navigate. One of those things is the man's response. And so when you go out on that first date, and we haven't talked about this, how do you know if someone's emotionally available? Because men are in the moment and men and women have different objectives. So break this down so that this I think is a really helpful to someone listening.

So break it down into me components so I can answer it appropriately. So do you wanna talk about the concept that men are in the moment? Do you wanna talk about how to be a great first date? How do you deal with following up after second date? Emotional availability. There was so much there that I want to break it down and make sure I give you a good answer. Right?

It's almost like that question alone is just one podcast,

Right? And that's, I have an entire month on that question in love. You, right? The the third month of love You is on dating, which is the time between when you meet a guy and when you decide he's your boyfriend. That's where everything goes wrong. So we could break that down into tiny, tiny components. I'm mean , but, but it , it's not something that we can do in five minutes. In five minutes ,

Okay?

In general, you can't tell from a profile if a guy's emotionally available. You can't tell from a first date if a guy is emotionally available unless he does something egregiously wrong. I'm not looking for anything serious right now. I just wanted you to know if he tells you that, believe him. <laugh> ,

Right? Absolutely. Get out of there. But that's

The problem is everybody's trying to read the last page of the book without actually reading the book. How could I tell from a two line profile with three photos, whether he's my soulmate and the answer, you can't. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> .

That's right. They're not gonna tell you if they're intentional or unintentional or if they're figuring things out after a divorce,

Which is why we have to stretch dating out. You can't go online. Swipe right, go on a great date, hop into bed, keep your fingers crossed. That's not a dating strategy. If you're the CEO , you have to interview and intern and see, not just how does he show up on the date, which as I said is performative. A guy who's a player has gotten really good at first dates. So to judge a guy for how good he is at the first date is often a false representation of who he is. Guys know how to be good first dates. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> . What wanna do is pay attention to what happens after the date. How quickly does he follow up ? That was great, Kerry . Can't wait to see you again. I'm gonna call you tomorrow night. Are you gonna be around? Oh, I was thinking of introducing you to my friends. How does he escalate over the course of five, six weeks? And if he continues to escalate and be sincere and talks about wanting to take down his profile, talk about wanting to call you his girlfriend, talk about the possibility of exploring a future together. That's when you sleep with him, that's when he becomes your boyfriend. He earns that over five, six weeks. He doesn't get that because you're lonely. He's cute and he was a great first date. And that's usually how women get into relationships. Insta relationship instas sex . It feels good. It's such a show out there. I'm just gonna take the first guy who seems to show interest. And then you have this real rollercoaster of an online love life, which we could avoid a lot of that rollercoaster by saying, Hey, I only sleep with guys who are my boyfriend. I've only known you for three dates. I don't know if I want you to be my boyfriend yet. If what we have is real, you'll still be there in in a few weeks and you're in for the night of your life, then you can set the boundaries as the CEO and an eager intern's gonna say, yes ma'am, how high should I jump?

Okay, I love this. So I would love to do just a straight up interview on moving away from the being in the moment of that date . And you have to be present. So this is kind of like a hard situation, but what you said is so valuable and so important. What is he doing after the date? What is he doing to earn the opportunity to spend more time with you? Men will tell you what they're all about in 90 seconds or less. Believe them. You're not gonna change them . You're not looking for science projects, you're not looking out for a fixer upper . You've got to really pay attention to those words because it's all really there in that moment. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. You, I can tell you're an incredible coach. You really, really are. So my last question is, does it come down to self-worth worthiness confidence You encourage women to date more confidently? Is it the limiting beliefs that hold ourselves back? What do you see that is the most common pitfall and what can women do to set up their future more correctly?

It's a great question. Literally all of your questions could be their own hour long podcast. <laugh> , I wanna give you credit because they are so thoughtful and I, I'm rushing through answers, so I apologize if I don't nail it. Uh , as much as I'm trying to, yes, limiting beliefs are a big deal. If you don't believe you're worthy of love, that's going to impact the way you interact with men. If you don't have confidence in your ability to attract good men, if you don't have faith in your own judgment in men, because your track record is poor, if you've continually chosen men who are low character cheaters, you're gonna view men in general differently than someone who likes men and trusts men. And so there's a whole bunch of things that are layer onto it. What we try to do is give people , uh, a clean slate to start whatever you've done in the past got you here and now we've got a big whiteboard. It's your future, right? And if you're 50 years old, hypothetically listening to this, think of yourself 25 years ago. That's a long time. 25 years. Well you got 25 years at least ahead of you. So that's a lot of time to get this right. Not to take yourself out of the dating pool, not to give up on love indefinitely and say, I'm fine being single. But to actually figure out how to do it differently, we start with something that's closer to a behavioral psychology perspective. It's not this sort of Freudian who hurt you in your past. It's I'm gonna act like a confident woman. And in acting like a confident woman, here's what a confident woman would do, right? If you had a little ww JD bracelet, what would a confident woman do here? A confident woman would be online. A confident woman would have no compunction about rejecting a guy who said something icky or sexual too quickly. A confident woman would not put up with a guy who hooked up with her on a Friday night and disappeared for two weeks. A confident woman would have no trouble letting know a guy, a guy, that she's not sleeping with him. Even if she's attracted to him, she's not afraid of losing him. There's behaviors of confident women and a confident woman knows when she's being treated, right? 'cause she listens to her own feelings. And if your feelings make you say, why am I anxious with this guy? Anxiety's not a good feeling for a relationship. You get rid of the guy who makes you feel anxious and you choose the guy who makes you feel safe. So if we can get your actions aligned with your goals, what's gonna happen? You're actually gonna be more confident. Men are gonna see you as more confident. You're gonna set healthier boundaries. Men are gonna respect you more. You're gonna get a higher caliber of man . And it starts with the behaviors. The beliefs catch up later when you discover, oh, this works.

It starts with the behaviors and it leads to the belief. Trust the process, trust the coach.

Confidence breeds success. Success breeds confidence. So if you get good at dating and online dating and communicating with men, it's gonna make you feel better about your ability to do it. You're not gonna come from that place of insecurity. You're not gonna position yourself as the perpetual intern hoping some Prince Charming chooses you, trying to win him over through your efforts and your ability to bend over backwards and please him. Find a guy who wants to please you.

Amazing. And don't be that unpaid intern. I think that is probably the best thing anyone's ever said on the show. I love that so much and I absolutely adore you. Where can people find out more about Love You.

For your listeners. I made a special report that they can download on my site. If you go to evan mark katz.com, E-V-A-N-M-A-R-C-K-A-T z.com/carey , K-E-R-R-Y. I believe it's seven mistakes you're making in dating real common sense things that sometimes allude us when we're in the process of dating big blind spots that people have. And I, I predict if you download that report, you'll see yourself in at least two or three of them as a means to start turning this thing around and stop repeating these patterns that you're unconsciously going through. If you're struggling with dating, you're not alone. And so my job is to take you where you are now and lead you in a really short period of time through a process that actually gives you confidence, allows you to trust your own judgment in men and exit the course in a relationship where you can relax and let down your guard and trust. You can't have a relationship if you don't have that.

That's right. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I learned so much from you. I think you're incredible and, and you have such a gift with all this information that you shared with us today. So thank you so much.

Oh my God, thank you for having me. You're a wonderful interviewer. Really interesting questions. And I'm sorry we didn't have enough time, but maybe , maybe , maybe we'll do this again.

We'll have to do a part too , <laugh>. Okay. I enjoyed it so much. I really did. So thank you. And for now, this week, shot at Love dating tips that are inspired by our guests , Evan Mark Katz . Number one date, like a confident woman, A woman who's confident wouldn't put up with guys who'd disappear for weeks. Employ the behaviors of confident women and get rid of the guy who makes you anxious and find someone who makes you feel safe. Number two, say goodbye to situation ships. Dating someone casually for six months isn't going to make them husband material situation ships never end in happiness. So let the ship and the situationship set sail and find a new skipper. Number three, there is never a driver and a passenger in a successful relationship be the CEO of your love life, not the unpaid intern. I hope you found some of my tips helpful this week. This is which Shot at Love is here for, to help you find love, keep up the commitment to yourself, and commit to helping someone else by sharing this podcast. Stay safe and stay tuned for more episodes. And if you like this show, please subscribe and leave a five star review. I'm Carrie Brett , and we'll see you next time.