Transcript
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I'm Carrie Brett and this is Shot at Love.
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Today, we'll take a deep dive into the dating world with the one and only Dr John Gray.
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He is the mastermind behind the global sensation men are from Mars, women are from Venus.
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With over 20 books, including his most recent, beyond Mars and Venus, dr John Gray's insights have captivated audiences worldwide, from Oprah to Barbara Walters.
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Stay tuned as we discuss the timeless wisdom of Dr John Gray's classic Mars and Venus on a Date uncovering the five stages of dating, as your success comes down to attraction, uncertainty, exclusivity, intimacy and engagement.
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Whether you're single, separated or newly jumping into the dating pool, this episode's for you.
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Dr John Gray is the most well-known relationship expert in the world.
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He's the author of the highly acclaimed, widely popular and most trusted relationship book of all time Men Are From Mars, women are from Venus.
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Usa Today listed his book as one of the 10 most influential books of the last quarter century.
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In hardcover, it was the best-selling book of the 90s.
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Dr John Gray's books are translated in over 45 languages in more than 100 countries, and it continues to be a bestseller.
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It is my honor to welcome Dr John Gray back for a second time.
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So, without further ado, dr John Gray, hi John.
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Hi, happy to be with you.
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I'm so happy to have you.
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This was a bucket list moment the first time, so to have you back, I just can't even believe.
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The last time you were on, it was Valentine's Day and the episode was really popular.
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It also won a communicator award, which no surprise there, because you're such an amazing person to interview and you're so knowledgeable about relationships.
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In that interview you mentioned one of your previous books that I didn't have time to read because I had so much that I had to research about you, but you mentioned the book Mars and Venus on a Date and I thought this could be really great, because these principles and these five stages, if you know them, really set you up for success.
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Yeah, yeah, and in each stage, when you kind of sense I'm in that stage, you can be recognize.
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Okay, what are the mistakes most people make at that stage and how do I avoid making those mistakes so that we can continue to bond and grow together if there's potential?
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At one point in your book you say something like it's a secret weapon or something around that you almost don't want to tell people that you read it, because it really gives you the keys to navigating through these different stages.
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Well, I didn't say don't tell anybody whatever it was, people don't know this, they don't know this.
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So when, when the states naturally shift in a relationship, we have to apply new insights, otherwise we sabotage ourselves.
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So many people sabotage and we'll explore those Unknowingly sabotage Not just people who consciously sabotage.
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But I know that you're doing your very best and you end up doing the thing that might make it go south.
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I don't understand how all these people have met lifelong partners without knowing all this information.
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I mean, I guess some people have gotten lucky and I know from listening to your story.
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You had to date differently your wife.
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You had to come back and try things differently.
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It was a very simple thing with my wife, which is Bonnie.
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When I met Bonnie, I was in love with her.
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She was in love with me, but I had been a monk for nine years and she had two little children from a previous marriage.
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And she, basically, when I wanted to marry her to keep a long story short, it was she said finalize, you're not ready to be married.
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At that point I wanted to be married.
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So there was another woman who had been pursuing me and she was pursuing me.
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I was trying to go back but hey, if Bonnie doesn't want to marry me, I'll just marry this woman.
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And that was a woman I married for two years.
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Her name was Barbara and our relationship primarily didn't work because she was more of the man and I was more of the woman.
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I wasn't yet financially self-sufficient, I didn't have a full-time job.
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I had started one.
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I was starting to have that because I've been a monk and you had no job at that point.
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And, barbara, I'm a teacher.
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So I wanted to start teaching about enlightened sexuality.
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After I was had not had sex for nine years, I started having sex again and I realized there's another way to do this.
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I called it enlightened sexuality, which is, you know, my heart was so full of love after so many years of meditation.
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Always be mindful in making love that you're only experiencing the pleasure and stimulating pleasure in order to feel more, so that you can feel more love and express that love.
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So you always make love the priority and you have a different experience.
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So I was teaching that class back back in those days and with um, with barbara, and she really helped me build my business.
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We became a couple, but the relationship didn't work because we were following a lot of the rules of what modern psychology was saying at the time, which is that there's not much difference between men and women and that men have to open their hearts by talking about their feelings and expressing themselves, and women needed to be, uh, listening to that.
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But what?
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What it will inevitably happen is the passion went away because if we didn't have tools that would boost my masculinity and boost her femininity, the polarity wasn't there.
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So the the attraction disappeared.
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I remember after two years I was shocked.
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Here I am with this beautiful woman.
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She's naked in bed and I can't even get turned on.
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What in the world was happening?
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So she fell in love with another man.
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Then she got married to another man another man, another man so that polarity she would neutralize polarity in all her relationships.
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I presume I don't know.
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All I know is for me I had a wake-up call.
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I had made big mistakes in that relationship, and what were they?
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And then, after a year of healing my heart because I was devastated when I was teaching relationship courses, and my wife falls in love with another man.
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What's that about?
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And I realized it was because everything I did I had to question and I questioned it and reversed everything around.
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There was a very significant time in my history where my father had been found dead in the trunk of his car.
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It was shocking to me.
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I had to go get into the trunk.
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I saw where he had died of heat asphyxiation.
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Someone had robbed him, he picked up a hitchhiker and he had died that way.
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My family's around the car and I just wanted to get in.
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I wanted to know what my father went through I'm a bit dramatic and the back window.
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He had unscrewed it with a screwdriver in the trunk just to get air and I pulled it back even further and without thinking, and my family's on the other side of the trunk.
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I just reached my hand out and then, as I was pulling my hand back out, my brother said oh, john, see if you can reach around and look and press the button.
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And so I reached around, pressed the button and it opened the button.
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And so I reached around, pressed the button and it opened the trunk.
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I realized, of course, that was my dad could have gotten out if he had thought to think the opposite way.
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So as a marriage counselor, I started looking at every problem from the opposite way and realized that in many ways women had the opposite need than men have.
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So that became the beginning of Men Are From Mars, women Are From Venus, my journey of developing how men and women are different.
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I started developing those ideas and I got very successful at it.
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Then I went back and I married Bonnie, because my attraction to Bonnie was a very healthy attraction, which is I wanted to provide for her.
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I just didn't have the money to do it, the job to do it.
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I wasn't ready to do it.
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So and she was looking for a man who would be there for her while she was raising her children.
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And that was the dynamic where I was very masculine with Bonnie and she was very feminine, and but what I mean by masculine and feminine is just men.
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The masculine side of us solves problems.
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The feminist side of us points out the problems.
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One part of us is very independent, one part of us is very dependent, and that's just parts of us.
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As people hear this, I don't want them to get the idea that women should just be one way, men should be just one way.
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We have both sides.
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But my first marriage failed because I was too far on my feminine side and my wife was too far on her masculine side, and so when we came close together, the polarity wasn't there, because once you start having sex, which is becoming naked, her body is a big part of it.
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She's now feminine and I'm masculine, but my masculinity wasn't strong enough.
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Her femininity wasn't strong enough.
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So I don't know if everybody could understand that whole journey, which sometimes I take an hour to explain, but that's what happened when we didn't have the polarity.
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It didn't last.
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With Bonnie, the opposite, a woman that I pursued uh, my first wife was a woman who pursued me, offered me all kinds of things and would do whatever I wanted.
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Uh, she was completely codependent in that sense of her happiness was based upon my happiness.
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She was pursuing me, whereas bonnie you know she had, she was the gatekeeper.
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She said no, no, no, I deserve this, I want this, I want that.
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And I was like, okay, I'll do that, I'll do that.
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And this is the proper balance in stage one of dating, which is a woman wants to make sure that the man who's pursuing her wants her more than she wants him.
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It just helps you find this balance of.
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In a sense, you're the queen and he has to earn his right in through the gates to get to you.
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And you're not that easy.
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And if women are in touch with their actual biology, they're not that easy, because a woman really wants to have sex.
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For example, when her estrogen levels rise to a very high level, it has to normally double in order for her to feel I want to have sex with this man unless she has a father issue, and many women today do have father issues because their fathers weren't there or they were dysfunctional fathers.
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When you have a father issue this is standard psychology you tend to be codependent, wanting to please a man to get his love.
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You shouldn't want to please a man to get his love.
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You should be with a man who wants to please you, to get your love, and when he does things to get your love, then he gets the love he's looking for.
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That's the right balance.
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So a lot of women, you know, back in the 90s when I wrote a lot of this stuff.
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One of the other very popular books is you know why didn't he call back?
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You know why doesn't he call back?
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He didn't call back because he didn't bond with you.
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He can't bond with you if you're trying to please him.
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Men bond by pleasing you.
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And if you make, if you're just busy giving to him, then he's, he's happy to be on his female side.
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If you pursue me, I okay, I like that.
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You're, you're nice on the list, who's next, who's next, who's next?
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But if a man actually feels you know there's something really special in you and he'll grow in that feeling of you're really special when he does something like he takes you on a date and you had a good time, or he takes you on a date and you had a good time, or he takes you on a date and you pointed out the food was too cold and it didn't work, there's this.
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He kind of goes ah, you know she's too hard to please.
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Or you're a modern woman and you go on a date and a guy takes you to date and the bill comes and you, you basically say I'll pay, there's no bonding.
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He doesn't bond them, right, he?
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He bonds when he does something for you.
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Or you say let's split the check.
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It says okay.
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Then there's no sense of I provided something for her and she appreciated it.
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That's what women don't understand about men.
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You don't owe him anything If you're on a date and he does everything for you.
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You don't owe having sex or anything.
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What you have to realize in a sense of a transaction the transaction is complete if you had a good time.
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Right, because that's what his goal is is for you to have a good time.
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You said something important in the book, which was women.
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Nowadays, this is a big topic where I don't want them to open the door for me.
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I don't want them to pay.
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If they pay, then they think that they'll get something for that.
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Well, that again is a worthiness issue.
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So if you feel that way, why would you be going out with a guy that you think if buys you dinner, you owe him?
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Why would you waste your time?
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Well, let me, let me validate those women.
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They're not foolish and stupid.
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I mean really the point, the point of view is we all want fairness, we want equality.
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You know, that's a nice thing If there's a transaction.
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If I do something for you, naturally you want to do something for me, and that's a good thing.
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About women, more so than men, is women do have this reciprocity gene, which is, if you do something for a woman, she then does feel I want to do something back to you.
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Ok, if she doesn't, she'll feel a little guilty.
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And now, if you do something for a man, he doesn't necessarily feel guilty if he doesn't do something back, guilty if he doesn't do something back.
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Quite often a man will do something for you and a man will be in the room and you'll be appreciating him doing something for him.
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And when you do something for him, he assumes I must have done something to already earn it.
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I don't know if people can follow that logic, but it's an amazing logic about men.
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When women start waiting on men, men assume I must have done a good job, so I don't have to do anything, whereas if I'm waiting on my wife, I'm doing things for her, she goes oh, that was so nice, I want to give back to him.
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There's a reciprocity thing which is much stronger in women, and so there's that dynamic of women will often assume that if men are the same as women, if I do things for him, he'll want to do things for me.
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But when you're dealing with a man, if you do things for him, he likes you.
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He's not going to bond with you, he's not going to pursue you, he's not going to can feel more connected to you right.
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So if you give more, you're not getting more that's exactly right.
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it's inevitable if you give more, you get less, you get less.
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That's right.
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That's right, because if you're giving constantly, then you're really pursuing, or there's a reason.
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Why are you giving so much?
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Why are you turning yourself into a pretzel and doing all those things?
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Well, you must not feel good about yourself.
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That's exactly right.
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But I want to just say it's not always you don't feel good about yourself.
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None of us feel perfect about ourselves.
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But it's really more about just simply assuming that he's more like a woman.
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If I give things for him, he'll want to give things for me, because if I give things to a woman, I'm going on a date.
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Basically she's going to feel oh, I want to give to you.
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But women should know, on a date where you're just getting to know each other, you're not in a long-term relationship.
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If he provides a meal for you, the fact that you're enjoying that, that's his goal.
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His goal is to make you happy and men maybe don't really, they're not always aware of what's inside, but that will make him aware of what's inside.
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You see, he doesn't feel ripped off.
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If you just feel happy to be with him and then maybe you feel like at the night, a kiss, that's it a kiss.
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If you feel like it, only if you do, you dodge.
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Okay, you clearly get a sense of how do I feel when a man does something for me.
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You might feel like you want to connect a little bit.
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I'm fine.
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But let's say you do a kiss and then the kiss feels really good and then you kind of go oh well, this feels really good and oh, he's enjoying this.
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I can make him enjoy it more and continue going on.
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Often women don't have the communication skill to say okay, say goodnight, we'll see you next time.
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They don't have that because they don't want to hurt his feelings, cause after the kiss maybe she's feeling oh good, potential, I don't want to put them off.
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And there's an illusion, and it is an illusion that all guys are getting laid.
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Okay, so they're all getting laid, it's all happening.
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And so there's a pressure on him to score that night.
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You know men never had this pressure.
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I just want you to know, before birth control you never had any pressure to score with a woman because everybody knew you had to get married first.
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You know there was that thing.
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So you didn't have such a my ego's at stake.
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If I don't get laid and she's over there now feeling because there's birth control, she's a prude if she doesn't say yes right away.
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So all these pressures are on us.
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So then inevitably, couples will have sex before they have enough emotional and mental bonding, and we'll talk about that in a moment.
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But if you don't have bonding, men don't call you back, that's just a simple thing and you feel needy.
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Afterwards Two things occur.
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If you have sex where you go like this and completely connect and you haven't bonded in the heart and in the mind, then afterwards he feels repelled by you to a certain extent and you will feel needy to him to a certain extent.
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And this is a phenomenon which occurs over and over and over again, which gave rise to that concept of why didn't the man call back.
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Concluding, just concluding this idea.
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I know you want to go further, but idea it's not just unworthiness, but there is this unworthiness issue which is which creates daddy issue.
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Okay, if daddy doesn't give to me, then I don't deserve to be loved.
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Just being me, I have to please this guy.
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So there's that tendency to make the people pleaser.
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Certainly that exists.
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But even if that doesn't exist and I'm covering this because some women think they don't have that, all right, just not knowing how different men are, if you have a man who does something for you and you appreciate it, the transaction is complete.
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Yes, you're going to give him what he needs.
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He gave you what you needed a man providing for her, helping her to feel good, and now you're going to help him feel good, and what is the emotional impact of actually a man taking you out to dinner?
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The impact of that is a man doing something you can do for yourself that you don't have to do yourself, and isn't that nice.
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That's the concept of all polarity is you know, women can do it all.
00:19:11.173 --> 00:19:23.160
Doing it all means you can be feminine, you can be masculine, but on this particular night your male side gets a day off and you can be purely feminine.
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:29.090
And we know all today that so many women are stressed because they feel I can't get back to my female side.
00:19:29.090 --> 00:19:32.405
And theoretically, that's what a relationship can do for women.
00:19:32.405 --> 00:19:45.008
Today you don't need men to provide for you financially anymore as much, but you do need men from my helping you become aware to help you come back to your female side, and that's something called romance.
00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:56.162
I like the appreciating piece because men sometimes can do the big things but they forget about the small things and the women hold on to the little things.
00:19:56.162 --> 00:20:04.903
It's interesting because the men, they just want you to show up and be happy and be thrilled with the fact that they're taking you out on a date.
00:20:04.903 --> 00:20:16.747
These things are so basic and so small, but they become really big when people don't understand that it really comes down to these the way you phrase things.
00:20:16.747 --> 00:20:18.391
So let's go through the stages.
00:20:18.411 --> 00:20:25.863
So the first stage because what you're talking about is the third stage right, right and the reciprocity is further down the line.
00:20:25.903 --> 00:20:29.099
So I'm like I almost want to start from the beginning, which is attraction.
00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:32.729
We did start just to know stage one attraction.
00:20:32.729 --> 00:20:38.061
Be careful, as women, which part of you is attracted to this man.
00:20:38.061 --> 00:20:42.553
Is it your female side that's attracted or your male side, trying to earn love?
00:20:42.553 --> 00:20:44.157
Oh, here's a candidate I can earn his love, that I can pursue him.
00:20:44.157 --> 00:20:45.194
That's going to be your male side trying to earn love.
00:20:45.194 --> 00:20:47.246
Oh, here's a candidate I can earn his love, I can pursue him.
00:20:47.246 --> 00:20:49.207
That's going to be your male side.
00:20:49.207 --> 00:20:50.440
He's never going to bond with you.
00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.066
If you're on your male side, you have to go on your female side.
00:20:53.066 --> 00:21:03.724
So, rather than and I'm not recommending be a flower on the wall where the man has to come and ask you out to dance you know that was the traditional thing where women were very feminine.
00:21:03.724 --> 00:21:05.326
They don't take the risk.
00:21:05.326 --> 00:21:06.107
It is a risk.
00:21:06.249 --> 00:21:12.988
I remember my first seventh grade dance party and the boys were on the side of the room, the girls were on the side of the room, and I'm a courageous guy.
00:21:12.988 --> 00:21:17.965
So I walked across the room to a girl that seemed the only girl that was shorter than me.
00:21:17.965 --> 00:21:29.192
I went to her and she was too embarrassed and she said no, she didn't want to be the first person on the floor, so then I walked back all by myself.
00:21:29.192 --> 00:21:31.200
I mean, this is, these are realities here.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.824
So, but so what?
00:21:33.844 --> 00:21:43.748
What woman wants to do is give a signal to a man in some way that says if you pursue me, I will say yes, that's her, that's role.
00:21:43.748 --> 00:21:50.729
She shouldn't walk across the dance floor but she should be looking at a guy and nodding at him and having signals.
00:21:50.729 --> 00:21:52.181
And we used to have signals.
00:21:52.181 --> 00:21:56.730
It was just curl your hair, look at him and smile, and that was a signal.
00:21:56.730 --> 00:22:05.553
The problem is, if you're single, if you're just happy, some men interpret that as a signal when they come on to you and women.
00:22:05.553 --> 00:22:09.928
But in the old days with men, you know what women did in the 50s.
00:22:09.928 --> 00:22:20.364
I can't say I'm not saying, bring that back, but if a man said something inappropriate to you or was too pushy around sexuality, you slap him and all men do that that was it.