Episode 90: The Suffering of Guns

Kevin Donaldson: 0:00

This is gonna hurt. It's time for the suffering podcast. Often, that which can save our lives can also cause the most damage. The benefits get outweighed easily when tragedy strikes. Life Saving quickly becomes life taking. Prescription medications are responsible for saving millions of lives. Prescription medications are responsible for the untimely death of so many. Food is an essential necessity that we need to survive. Food is an addictive substance that when abused, causes ravages to your body making it almost unusable. A pencil is an essential communication tool used to convey our hopes, dreams and feelings. A pencil misused by the media can destroy your life. Anything on Earth can cause harm. If the person wielding it wishes to do some. Putting an object in the hands of a wrong person will forever change the benefits that the object can provide. I'm Kevin Donaldson here with Mike fleece and on this episode of the suffering podcast, we sit down with Dave Vorhees to discuss the suffering of guns. Dave's an avid crusader for something that he truly believes in. Thank you so much for traveling all this way to get here.

Mike Failace: 1:16

My pleasure. If you notice, there's going to be a couple screw ups. I mean, they're already happened already. But

Kevin Donaldson: 1:20

you can edit those so screw there's a screw up sitting to the left and right. You know, thanks for coming all this way. We really appreciate it. Specially it's nice to have another Philly fan. Yeah, yeah, see? Yep, Phillies are playing. And all of a sudden, all this sudden, I am not the only one here.

Mike Failace: 1:38

The Mets 110 Two today. I'm not a mad fan.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:41

Son shows that a cat says every once in a while Hey,

Mike Failace: 1:43

that's domestica better record than the Yankees now?

Kevin Donaldson: 1:46

Well, that's not saying much for the Yankees Mets. You guys are like a glorified Miley

Mike Failace: 1:49

stop talking about baseball, we got bigger fish to fry here.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:53

We got bigger guns to discuss. Every weekday, we take a question from our audience on something that they would like to hear this week's message comes from Jennifer and it says, How do you stay open to new ideas? I thought this was apt for the discussion that we're going to have today. Because it's a tough discussion to have. And as you know, you know, we don't discuss politics on it. We don't we have pretty open minds when it comes to that stuff. And this is gonna be a dance today to stay away from the political arena. But how do you how do you maintain an open mind? When when when there's a belief that you're strong and steadfast to?

Dave Voorhees: 2:29

So it's definitely a good question. I would say for me, you got to look at it from just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them right. And you grow, or vice versa? You know, I don't like what you're saying, and so on, right? Because I disagree with you. So a lot of times what I think of is alright, how do we come together on this? What? What is the best option? That makes sense?

Mike Failace: 2:52

Mike, would you say it's really fun on Common Ground? I mean, we see it in law enforcement all the time, you go into a place and you see you, you have your way you think you're gonna attack the situation? Someone else comes in and says, Well, why don't we do it this way. The four eyes are always better than two.

Kevin Donaldson: 3:06

So it's funny, funny, you said that because I had when I was on, I had a second job. And it was computer, police management software, digital, complete police management. Now it's in every police department. But when I started, it was just working its wave. And there were some police departments that were still pen and paper. And I would go my value, there was another cop talking to another cop on how this is going to make your life better, easier and more effective. And I had some grizzled old timers, the dinosaurs. Yeah, the grizzled old timers like, kid you're not going to show me how to do it. And it's real simple to me here. Here's how, here's how I approached it. If this doesn't make your life easier, then don't use it. You're there's at this time, there was no hard and fast rule that you had to use. You had to use report writing in there. So I said don't use it. But I guarantee you, you're going to see over time, that this that these guys who are using this are going to get done faster, and it's going to look more professional. And that's showing them the value but that comes to education. You know,

Mike Failace: 4:04

like when e tickets came out? Oh, yeah, I never you I wrote them all out. Yep. Through discourtesy tickets.

Kevin Donaldson: 4:10

If it didn't make your life easier, what's the point of using it,

Mike Failace: 4:12

you know, probably made would make my life easier. But it made me more aggravated to

Kevin Donaldson: 4:18

screw it. I'll just do as close as your mind is I want to know, uncertain, uncertain things. You're pretty open minded. How do you maintain an open mind?

Mike Failace: 4:25

Like I said, you have to look at all perspectives. You know, you before you say it, I'm not the smartest guy out there. So someone else is going to have later finally identified that someone's going to have an opinion is better or mine. I mean, as cops we're always strong willed people. And we always think we're right. And we always think we can handle things but someone else may have a better idea. Did you gotta go in open minded and weigh out all this and like you said, try to make things easier, make them easier for yourself.

Kevin Donaldson: 4:51

You know, I try never to be married to my opinions, because opinions can be very, very dangerous. I try to take all the educational materials that I Have them be the curator of my own information rather than having somebody tell me what they're supposed to do when you see somebody that is so avid on on a hole. This is not every time that is so avidly for or against something one of their opinions, they're usually missing some piece of information. They really are. And what that does is it opens up for you to come across that one person who is truly educated in the subject, and they're going to burn you in they're gonna make you look like an ass. Yep. So we try not to stay married. I try not to stay married to my opinions on a lot of different things. We've had people on this show here that I don't agree with their lifestyle, and I don't have to, I don't have to affirm their lifestyle. But you know, ultimately, I do have to

Mike Failace: 5:38

accept I tried to stay married to things too. But that didn't work. But anyway.

Kevin Donaldson: 5:44

Throw that one in there.

Mike Failace: 5:45

Some some people are so closed minded and set in their ways. They don't want to hear your opinion. They want to hear they want to hear what fits their agenda.

Kevin Donaldson: 5:55

Correct. And they want you to reverberate their opinion. And if you don't, that's when arguments happen. And that's why to certain things in this world, there are no right answers there. You know, if you argue religion, there's no right answer, because nobody's come back from that place. And then, you know, the other thing is politics, both sides has their view their point of view, and that's why we don't talk about it, because there is no winning on that situation. Yeah.

Mike Failace: 6:17

But just getting back to that. No, we don't talk politics, but I think that's probably what the country now you got the the left, and you got the right, and nobody wants to meet in the middle anymore. I think the left has their their viewed right as their view and nobody's using common sense. It's a government for the people.

Kevin Donaldson: 6:30

I am going to make one of the first political statements on here. I think both sides are knuckleheads. Well, yeah, I really do because they're stuck in their ways. Nobody can compromise because they're not meeting in the middle. Right. Jennifer, thank you so much for that question. I want to give a big shout out to our marquee sponsor, that's Toyota of Hackensack. We buy our cars from Toyota because we trust them we don't trust everybody else. You know, that's one of the worst things about being a cop. You just don't trust everybody. But Toyota of Hackensack. You go to Toyota hackensack.com and let them find you a car. So Dave, long drive up here, Dell, yeah, two hours, two and a half hours. Do you have to go through Philly?

Dave Voorhees: 7:03

Luckily no, I got I took the Commodore Barry and then ended up going on the Jersey Turnpike Connecticut.

Kevin Donaldson: 7:09

It was weird names. Yeah, Pennsylvania.

Mike Failace: 7:10

I used to go to Commodore Behram with the Weidner University for a little while Okay. Commodore Barry all the time. There you go.

Kevin Donaldson: 7:16

I was almost gonna go to Lightner

Mike Failace: 7:19

you didn't you didn't make it in there. They only let a smart guys and good football players yes

Kevin Donaldson: 7:28

well that's that's probably the reason you where'd you go to fairly ridiculous and I went to fairly ridiculous in Madison. Great school. Hey, when I went to fairly it was top five rated in Playboy is party school. Okay, okay. So when I showed up there as a freshman there was cake sitting sitting outside the door

Mike Failace: 7:45

when he when he showed up at jumped in the bottom hundreds.

Kevin Donaldson: 7:49

I think I think it went up a couple notches when I was there. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dave Voorhees: 7:54

quick background you know, I grew up with a single mom was raised in the Poconos. My dear

Kevin Donaldson: 7:58

mother is a friend of the show.

Mike Failace: 8:00

She has a family

Kevin Donaldson: 8:01

again. Yes. Well, everybody comes on our show is family. Yeah. It's Professor T. Risa Augustine Elysee, I got the name right. I had the toughest time saying your mother's name, that he's Irish. So I had to spell it out phonetically. And we it's it's the names with the vowels at the end that I have the toughest time it's just the Irish tongue doesn't work real well. Yeah. And that's what she said. We had another guest on. It took me we did a two part episode with him. And I think it took me two hours in before I finally got his name. Right. So your your south, south affiliate, correct? Yes. Yeah. So what do you do for a living?

Dave Voorhees: 8:37

I work in law enforcement. Yeah.

Kevin Donaldson: 8:40

One of the partners, they do things a little differently in in that area as far as hiring police. And it's a little foreign world because New Jersey? It's a competitive job market. Yeah. But they don't hire you like they they bring in? Is it per diem? Or is it part time what's what's the deal. So the

Dave Voorhees: 8:57

way they do it more on that is it's part time, full time. So you might work part time, and a full time capacity. So you'll work full time hours, just like all the other full time guys, you just don't get benefits or a pension or anything like that. Other departments will hire a guy and they work two or three shifts a week other guys are just as needed, where a full time guy will call out or take a vacation. They need somebody to cooperate.

Kevin Donaldson: 9:23

How's that with with training and everything?

Dave Voorhees: 9:25

It's very difficult. It's got to be rough. Yeah. So that's why I had mentioned when I met with some people about trying to start a 501 C three, four departments that say, Hey, listen, we have a budget for full timers to train them, but we can't afford to train our part timers. So you know, the part timers gonna get pushed to the side. And I'm like, alright, well, we do the same job. We do the same, have the same powers of arrest. And if needed, have to make those hard calls.

Kevin Donaldson: 9:50

And you're you're also beholden to the same laws that every other police officers have beholden to where you make an error. Your answer is going to get nailed to the wall.

Mike Failace: 9:59

Correct and You're with a part time partner that isn't as trained as you are. So he may not be as capable as, as a full time employee.

Dave Voorhees: 10:08

Yeah. And that's why I've sought out so much training on my own time out of my own pocket, because I believe that if you are going to be called the law enforcement, you need to be the best train that you can.

Kevin Donaldson: 10:19

So how do you like the job? I mean, you've been doing it for a while, right? I started in 2011. Oh, wow. So you got you got 11 years and what do you think was the job?

Dave Voorhees: 10:28

A lot has changed over the I'd say the 10 years when I started, things were a lot different. And now it's very much you know, you need to remember you are being watched every second of every day. Yep. And I'm also an instructor at our Delaware County vocational school. And where I teach there, I tell my students, you have to remember in this day and age, everything you do, you might have to give an accountability for people have smartphones, rain cameras, all kinds of stuff. Just remember that how you conduct yourself. How do you want that seen on the news

Mike Failace: 10:59

when you do a dash cams and body cams? No,

Dave Voorhees: 11:01

we don't. So it's kind of hard. Some departments are getting them. Some are getting just dash cams, some are getting body cams, some are getting both

Kevin Donaldson: 11:09

body cam, but you know, I just heard something today as a matter of fact about the body cams. If you and again, this goes back to a subjective police administration, if your body cam shuts off, and they can even if they have an inkling that you did it, you could be charged with Third Degree crime in New Jersey. Wow, third degree crime so you're gonna lose your job, you're gonna go to jail for five years. It's a it's it's, it's, it's, that's a lot of responsibility. So it almost unfortunately, the body cams. Some people screwed it up for everybody. So we all got to pay the price. But what it does is it makes people hesitant to do their job.

Mike Failace: 11:48

Great. And it takes discretion out. Yeah.

Kevin Donaldson: 11:51

So they I'm not a big fan of the body cams. I understand their their need, understand people's fears where there's that third eye watching that in the objective third eye transparency. Yeah, there's just so you know, but I had never come in with body mics. But I came in the we didn't have MBRs in all the cars. We had them in a couple. When they came in and all cars. Everybody was real hesitant. Everybody's real scared. But those those MVR hours, the Dash Cam microphones. They saved my butt. They never jam me up. They saved my butt a lot. Yep. You know, because then it's not a he said she said thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So what else what else you got going on?

Dave Voorhees: 12:37

I'm currently still working with some of our political leaders trying to get something together for where we can bridge both sides, both Democrats, Republicans, I think it's time that we start addressing the mental health issue, as far as it relates to guns Correct. As far as it relates to guns. Yeah. I mean, it's, we want to blame all these other things. And we don't want to realize that it's, it's a human issue. It's not a gun problem. It's not a bullet problem. It's a human problem. We have to start recognizing that there is a mental health crisis. I

Mike Failace: 13:09

say Guns don't kill humans, though. Correct?

Kevin Donaldson: 13:11

Well, you know, this is damaging as a gun can be the most damaging thing on the planet that is manufactured in the billions every day is this right here? Because this can do more damage to your character than than most guys on on a statistical level. You know, obviously, well as I've tried a couple of times to do this, but anything put in the wrong hands can be seen as destructive. Anything, you know, I obviously, you weren't privy to the open because all you do is try to mess me up. You got something like prescription medication. So prescription medication, saves millions of lives. Prescription medication takes millions of lives. So ruins millions alive, right. And the little pencils, you can go food and go all different. Oh, gamba, the thing about the abuse of anything. And the abuse of guns. Guns seems to be the Hot Hot Topic button right now. Because there's, you know, the school shootings and things like that. So people are real hyper aware of everything that's going on. You know,

Mike Failace: 14:17

isn't it really guns getting into the wrong hands? I think I think that's that's the case. We're all here about today.

Kevin Donaldson: 14:23

You know, at its essence, the Second Amendment. Okay, I have a theory. I actually know what the Second Amendment was written for, you know, a second amendment is the right to bear arms. All right. Do you know, tell us a little bit about why you think the cost of the founding fathers put that in the Constitution?

Dave Voorhees: 14:41

I think it's a two fold measure. It's one it's they keep the government accountable to the people. And one, it's for the protection of that person as well. So it's the protection of life, liberty. I mean, that's why our forefathers had the vision to say, hey, we need to write some ideas and some walls out just so we don't end up with the same rule that we had over or anyone.

Kevin Donaldson: 15:02

So the reason that that I had read I read a lot of different things on this is that was put in the constitution to guard against a tyrannical government. So we never went back to what we had with England, these views, less so much less than, you know, less than protection, it was put in there primarily for that. And if you want my case in point two, this is in 1933, when the Nazi Party took over Germany, first thing Adolf Hitler did was take away all the private guns. And what does that do? All of a sudden your citizens can't defend themselves. So there's, there's the history lesson right there of why that amendment is so important. Now, that being said, because of my personal incident, I can't stand guns. Like I don't like them. But that's me. I'm glad there are people who do. I really am glad there are people who do. So. I mean, are you you personally? What's your personal feelings on guns?

Dave Voorhees: 16:00

Me personally, I grew up very pro Second Amendment, my family's very pro guns pro Second Amendment, but they're also very pro training. We're not just gonna give you a gun and say, Here, go, you know, shoot outside and shoot some cans, you're gonna learn gun safety, you're gonna learn proper handling of weapons. You know, our family, we learned if you got a temper, you shouldn't have a gun. It's one or the other juvenile drinking, if you've been shouldn't have been out drinking, you know, that, to me is just common sense. If you're gonna go out and have some drinks with some buddies, and all that, leave your gun at home. If you're with a bunch of buddies, the last thing you need is to be drinking and then get an altercation. Regardless of who starts the fight. You're the one that's going to it's not going to end well. No, it's not going to end well. That's

Kevin Donaldson: 16:47

a rookie decision. Just and I hate to use that term rookie. Because I think it's a derogatory term. But a rookie. A new officer will carry his gun. I swear they sleep with it. 24/7 Yeah, look at me. I gotta know if they'll put the ball. They'll put a polo shirt over and you can see a bulge in there. But all that's that's an ego thing and pronounce it. Like, yo, yeah,

Dave Voorhees: 17:09

but in today's day and age, that's not something you want to do.

Kevin Donaldson: 17:13

I you know, after Christ six months on the job, I put that thing in the locker and kept it there because it just became a huge liability.

Mike Failace: 17:20

You have to that there are plenty of times I never took my gun home.

Kevin Donaldson: 17:23

I left it in my locker

Dave Voorhees: 17:25

work. Yeah, I leave mine in my locker. And then I just take my off duty home. Yeah, that's, that's what I do. And there's many of us that pretty much do the same thing.

Kevin Donaldson: 17:32

Because I see the value for it. Like I have a lot of deer in my neighborhood. So the one of the reasons why guns are good for me is I'll always have food. Yeah, exactly. So you've as a police officer, you've seen some some pretty nasty calls with gun some abuse of guns. I have do you have? Do you have any that you that stand out?

Dave Voorhees: 17:53

I have several. One was back a couple months ago, which I was actually awarded a lifesaver award for saving young man's life. He was shot in the abdomen and nearly lost his life. So as you know, a young man under the age of 18. can't speculate or obviously talk about what happened but he was shot in the abdomen. I was the first one on scene. And again, as I've said, I'm very big into training. Very big into as a police officer. How many times that we the first ones there. Were there before fire. Were there before EMS, usually and we're the ones that have to stop. It usually

Mike Failace: 18:33

feels like an hour before EMS gets.

Dave Voorhees: 18:36

Wait, you're waiting to hear those sirens in the distance. You're like, man, it's been forever. And two minutes have gone by.

Kevin Donaldson: 18:43

But it's it you know, we have to see the worst of the worst. We have to deal with somebody a gun say that might be in somebody's hand that it shouldn't be illegal guns. Were specifically illegal guns or guns in the in the hands of maybe somebody grabbed a grabbed a legal gun that shouldn't shouldn't have it. There's a couple different theories that I have with that. But you being a police officer has it. You grew up on way, believing in the Second Amendment. You being a police officer hasn't changed any of your views on guns.

Dave Voorhees: 19:18

I still say that people do have the right to own a gun, but responsibly and legally. You know, there's too many guns that are out there where people are. We see guns with obliterated serial numbers. Well, we no that's not a legal God. But then people that are getting charged with gun crimes, they do negotiate a guilty pleas they know that you know what, they're probably going to get out and half the time. So it's like where's the accountability start and where does it end? With guns. I still say that I believe in the Second Amendment. I believe in an individual's right to own a gun to carry a gun I believe in persons right for concealed weapons. But again, legally and responsibly.

Kevin Donaldson: 19:58

My you you were pleased Officer for 20 years, you came into the job the one way and then you left another way. Did your view on guns change over that time,

Mike Failace: 20:08

you get jaded by a lot of different things. You know, I mean, like I said, I was never a gun owner growing up, I was never anti gun. You know, first gun I ever got was when I first got my job. That's pretty much the first time I held a gun. So I really had no, like preconceived notions on or anything like that. Then you realize the damage your guns could do. You know, and especially if it gets in the wrong hands. You know, like you said, the ones with the shaved serial numbers and all that. You know, and

Kevin Donaldson: 20:41

I mean, it's you guys would laugh at the way I got my gun. So I was in the police academy during 911. Yep. And our department recalled us. We go back to the department. Lieutenant pulls me in the armory, says, We haven't qualified yet. Yes. Here's your gun. Don't shoot anybody. It's exactly what he said to me. And I went out so posed to you. Did he give you bullets? Yeah, bullets and everything was real gun. wasn't wasn't one of the red ones. But yeah, it's insane. But that was 911. We thought we were at war. So it was a little bit different atmosphere.

Mike Failace: 21:15

But God forbid you did shoot someone holy cow.

Kevin Donaldson: 21:19

But there's so many different types of guns out there. There is alright, the guns that the police carry, you know, it's usually now actually they're going down to nine millimeters. And wherever when I when I left. We were at 45. It was always going up. Yep. sorted it No, you know, it was revolver nine, a nine millimeter 40 caliber 45. Now it seems to be going down what what's I don't know. I don't understand the reasoning behind that. Yeah.

Dave Voorhees: 21:42

I mean, from one of the combat courses that I took, a lot of it emphasized on asking the why why are you learning to train the way you are? Why do you shoot the amount of rounds that you shoot? And a lot of times it seems to be one cost effectiveness, once a box of nine millimeter versus a box of 45

Kevin Donaldson: 22:02

will go? Well, that means that I know ammo is pretty short right now.

Dave Voorhees: 22:05

And manageability you're getting some people that are coming out of the academy that might be thinner, or you know, can't handle a 45. And so what do we do we go to a nine millimeter because it's more manageable.

Mike Failace: 22:18

And females in law enforcement. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to pick on them. But obviously, they're not just some women aren't the strongest guys, and they can't really handle it. I mean, I've seen girls who couldn't handle shotgun.

Dave Voorhees: 22:31

But I've also seen some females that I'd take to watch my battle

Mike Failace: 22:35

with some guys who can't handle a shotgun also. So I'm

Dave Voorhees: 22:39

like, listen, she can watch my back. And

Mike Failace: 22:41

I always say to one of the best police officers I've ever worked with was a female

Dave Voorhees: 22:45

because they're more focused and attentive to detail. So they

Kevin Donaldson: 22:48

might Felice. Sure. But, you know, I do know recently in the town that I work in, somebody was in the police academy, it was probably two years ago couldn't pull the trigger. Yep. You know, if you can't pull the trigger, that's a problem. That's a problem. You know, if you got to squeeze so hard, maybe you should have trained a little bit. Once go get a gripper. Yeah, I put that onus on them.

Mike Failace: 23:11

Again, that comes down to grip strength and it comes down to being able to qualify because you're squeezing a gun and you're punching it now because you're squeezing the hell out of it and a gun shake and you're punching down and you know,

Kevin Donaldson: 23:20

yeah, but you train what? Shame on them for that training. You know, you train to run. When you go through the academy, you train your body to get through the rigors of the physical training. That should be something that you train as well.

Dave Voorhees: 23:34

And as cliche as it is. I always tell people to train like I fight. I fight like I train, right perhaps if I'm training in jujitsu, I want to wear as much of my gear as I can. When I was training with a guy in Krav Maga we were doing simulated street fights resisting arrest of

Kevin Donaldson: 23:51

a cap Herrera. That's Mike's not too much. It's like he likes Brazilian dance fighting. Okay, Andrew, Andrew, Andrew just see I don't have the Latin tongue Andrew. Kappa Kappa wetter kappa I'm gonna say kappa rarer kappa I'm gonna just do it to piss them off you gotta roll that's why we need more Latin police officers to do kappa wetter

Mike Failace: 24:22

rengay and all that

Kevin Donaldson: 24:23

but there's all different types of guns there is you know, you got your hand guns and and the buzz term now is assault weapon, assault weapon, anything anything that's long and looks funky. Like I've seen shotguns that look like quote unquote, assault weapons. Yeah. All you got to do is put some fancy dresses on them and they can dress them up. So what are the different types of guns that people need to deal with?

Dave Voorhees: 24:45

I mean, the term assault weapon to me just makes my skin crawl every time I hear because nobody's going to walk into a gun store and say Hey, can I buy an assault weapon? Or look at you like you got three heads. There's no such thing. It's it's we know that it's that made up immediately. term of all assault weapons

Mike Failace: 25:01

because it's catchy, correct? It's catchy to the people who are anti Second Amendment. Yep.

Dave Voorhees: 25:06

And they hear assault and they think automatically Oh, the bad black gun. Oh, the black rifle. No, no, no. But yet, a semi automatic handgun can do just as much damage as an AR 15 and M four,

Kevin Donaldson: 25:19

I think I could do, I think I could do more damage with a handgun than most people can do. Because you've you've shot automatic weapons, which I think people would be safer to say an automatic weapon rather than an assault weapon, because that's pretty much what they're talking multiple fires, multiple bullets, you know, by just pulling the trigger once. If you've ever shot one, those bullets will just keep going up and up and up and up. And that's why you look at any range, any indoor range. Just look up in the ceiling. And see it you'll see you'll see people you'll see lines out there.

Mike Failace: 25:49

You gotta get that that rib roll forward. And you know, yeah, your body into the gun. And

Kevin Donaldson: 25:55

so if you watch any any military, like Navy SEAL movie, you'll see him do the, the it's like a it's like a hunch. Almost.

Dave Voorhees: 26:04

You got to get that rifle in your shoulder pocket right there.

Kevin Donaldson: 26:07

You know, it's really funny, though, when people shoot a shotgun and they don't have it tight to their shoulder.

Dave Voorhees: 26:10

Oh, man. That is fire. You can see him pop backwards. You like yeah, you know, that hurts. Just look at the videos

Mike Failace: 26:15

on hand. Yeah, you

Kevin Donaldson: 26:18

know, 50 Cow gun, like a 50 cal Desert Eagle, which is got a huge bullet and it's got a I've shot him the kick, it shoots like, it kicks like a mule. And people hold it here and the tripod stands. Yep. And pop, right and right in the head. Which I always find it's pretty funny.

Mike Failace: 26:35

But now that's someone who should own a gun. Correct?

Dave Voorhees: 26:38

Or at least learn at least learn it. Yeah, like get some training, you're not going to buy brand new Ferrari without knowing at least how to drive the car, do you

Mike Failace: 26:47

think and I'm sure we'll get into this. You should be qualified and adept at that with that gun before you buy it.

Dave Voorhees: 26:56

My personal opinion is if you're going to buy a gun, the onus is on you to understand that weapon to get the training on that weapon. Too many times you see people I got a gun, I got a gun. You know, it's, I think you need to if you're going to get that gun, you need to get some training on it. You need to understand how it operates. And not even that it's the safety as well of if you don't know how your gun works, what are you going to do if there's

Mike Failace: 27:22

a problem with it? You're gonna shoot yourself,

Dave Voorhees: 27:25

you're gonna hurt yourself, somebody else,

Kevin Donaldson: 27:27

those people, those people that say, Oh, I gotta go, I gotta go. And I don't think I'd be as afraid of them as most people, because it's the dark, it's the dog who barks the loudest, it rarely bites. You know, those are the people that I'll show them, I can do way more damage to you with a baseball bat than you're going to do with your gun. And they may get off some shots. And that's where the danger comes in. Yeah, but you know, a true educated gun owner, a legal gun owner, a safety conscious gun owner, it's never going to tell you they got a gun. Yeah. They're just gonna pull it out and they're gonna buy it's gonna go bang, yep.

Mike Failace: 28:03

Without a doubt, it's the guy that announces it that you don't want it's the quiet guy. That'll just walk away and come back. That's the guy you gotta be afraid of.

Kevin Donaldson: 28:11

So what is a true assault weapon as it's defined?

Dave Voorhees: 28:15

So there are so many different interpretations that we hear of assault weapon, is it because it shoots more than one round when you depress the trigger? Is it because it's painted black? You know, we joke around a lot of times law enforcement, you could take a pen and paint it black and now it's a tactical pen. What makes something an assault weapon, people just like the idea of an M for an AR 15 AK 47 that to them as an assault weapon, and never even thinking about a shock on that semi automatic and it's also black. It's it's that round. It's that idea of it's an assault rifle.

Kevin Donaldson: 28:50

So don't you think that might be the first thing that we got to change is we got to change people's vocabulary.

Dave Voorhees: 28:54

And I absolutely think that you know, the last meeting I had with the senator was that we need to we need to change the idea of what the

Kevin Donaldson: 29:02

I don't want to blame any guns and assault weapon

Dave Voorhees: 29:05

and it can be anything in and of itself. You could get a potato gun painted black. And if it can shoot multiple potatoes, what do we have now and a semi automatic assault potato gun

Mike Failace: 29:15

well, can a car be an assault weapon? Correct.

Kevin Donaldson: 29:18

That's what I'm that's my point. So if I if I if I have an illegal gun, and I have it for nefarious purposes, and I shoot it at somebody isn't that an assault? And it's an assault with a weapons hence it's an assault weapon.

Dave Voorhees: 29:31

And so that in and of itself is where you have to say all right, we know where the term assault rifle assault weapon, where it came from? Why was it originated? We know why it was originated, but no one any meeting I've ever had, no one can truly explain to me, give me an exact definition of an assault weapon. No, they're

Kevin Donaldson: 29:52

willing to make laws about it though, which is scary because it's

Dave Voorhees: 29:55

like you want to make a weapon of law about something you're not 100% versed in

Mike Failace: 29:59

it because it you drive a car into a crowd, is that an assault vehicle? But you're driving into a crowd to hit people and hurt people injured people kill people. Now they don't they don't consider an assault car.

Dave Voorhees: 30:11

And to your point, if that happens, who do they blame? They blame the car or the driver. Yeah, they blame the driver. But yet if somebody gets a shotgun, and does the same thing in a crowd, who do we blame?

Mike Failace: 30:20

They blame the shotgun or, or, or the assault weapon. And that's where

Dave Voorhees: 30:24

I'm like, I don't understand this whole Okay, well, we'll blame the car right now blame the gun.

Kevin Donaldson: 30:30

Well, it's it's, as I see it, because when I was a kid, I'm 48 years old and school shootings weren't out there. That I'm sure they were but we never heard about

Mike Failace: 30:42

them. The first real one we heard about was what? Columbine? Columbine? Yeah, that was the one that really opened everybody's eyes to everything

Kevin Donaldson: 30:48

that those kids were out to cause mayhem, whether it would be with a pipe bomb, or homemade pipe bomb or car into the school that was just there, the path of least resistance to get in there. But I think it also has a lot to do with the way with conflict resolution. I see this with my kids. I teach my kids conflict resolution, they get into a fight with somebody, I sit them both down, and now you gotta go talk it out. The schools don't want that the schools actually frown upon that they my son got into a fight and they made tried to make him sign this contract to say you guys are gonna stay away from each other. It's I swear to God, it's a contract. And I shoved it back in the vice principal's face. I said, I'm not signing that you shove that up your ass. Yeah, I may have said that. I'm sorry. I think I said I apologize. I apologize now. But you know, I told the vice principal, I said, I know I did your job. I sat these guys down. I taught them how to work out their differences. Yeah, what you're doing is anesthetized in the situation, you're making them cave up and not deal with it until it builds up into something bigger. And then they just let it out. They just left. So

Mike Failace: 31:54

that leads now they're in violation of the contract that they just signed? Yep.

Kevin Donaldson: 31:58

Correct. Yeah. And plus their life, their life is over. So I think it has less to do with my personal opinions has less to do with guns, and more to do with how we teach the next generation coming up. Yeah. Would you would you say that's a fair assessment?

Dave Voorhees: 32:13

Again, it's I mean, it's not a gun problem. It's a people problem.

Kevin Donaldson: 32:18

Well, let's go through the definitions. So obviously, pro Second Amendment, they want the gun laws as loose as possible. So they can because some people just like guns, and why don't you shoot guns, because shooting guns is fun. It's a fun thing to do.

Mike Failace: 32:32

If you go to a range, and you shoot a gun, you know, properly go to the range. It's really like an aggression release.

Kevin Donaldson: 32:38

Right target shooting, a lot of target shooting is great. It's great. And some people use it for hunting. But what's the so let's talk about some of the arguments that separate us the anti gun versus the pro said, I hate to say anti gun, they are anti the people who want to really clamp down on gun control. Yeah, versus the true Second Amendment people aren't advocates, gun advocates. What are some of the what are some of the arguments of each side?

Dave Voorhees: 33:08

So what I'm seeing on one side of, you know, people that think that no one needs a gun, you have the police, or no one needs a gun, because you can get a dog or an alarm or whatever. Then you have people on the other side, they're like, everybody should own a car. It's one of those, like you said, it's a very hard topic. It's something where how do we bring people together? How do we say, Alright, let's listen to your point of view. And let's listen to your point of view. And how do we meet in the middle? Again, it's I think people have the right to own guns. Some people don't, some people do. But how do we bring them together? How do we say that? You know what, just because you think that no one should own a gun doesn't make you right, and everybody else wrong.

Mike Failace: 33:53

It's really all about educating people, educating people on both sides. And that's what I said earlier, it was just the education. And this is what we talked about earlier, that people are so set in their ways. You're not going to you know, you're not going to tell a gun advocate, you're really not going to get him to side with someone who's anti guns, because they're both strong willed, and they're both set in their ways. Yeah.

Kevin Donaldson: 34:16

Well then, because I've had these discussions and the funny thing about my discussions with people I told you, I really don't like guns. I know a lot about them. I've been shooting a gun since I was five years old. After my incident, I just now I'm done. But so when people come at me like we should just take away guns, and there's no reason why people need an assault weapon. Here's my argument. One of my friends who is very anti gun, I said, so what kind of car you drive? And they were like, well, I drive a I think it was a BMW. I said, Okay. I said, you know, you don't need a gun, or you don't need you don't need a car. Well, yeah, I do need a car. And I said, No, you can take a bike if there's public transportation. You save on the environment you saw good, right? You don't need a car. Just Well, I want a car. Oh, okay, you want a car? Alright, let's go one step further. You got a BMW and they had a high end car, it might have been a Mercedes. They had a high end car. Well, you definitely don't need a high end car. Fiesta Ford Fiesta do just the same job as your car. Why do you why work hard? That's what I want. Oh, really?

Mike Failace: 35:25

I want to call it goes fast. Oh, really?

Kevin Donaldson: 35:27

Okay. All right. So you can have what you want, even though you don't need it. So if somebody wants a automatic weapon, sure, they don't need it. But they might want it. They might want it well. And then so I already know the argument coming back to me, Well, my car doesn't kill people, really. Because it has the potential to cause car accidents killed just as many more people with guns. So the argument doesn't hold a hold water. And that's what I said earlier, going back to the social media question, you really have to educate yourself, if you're going to stand on one side of the other side. So that way, you don't look like an idiot. And I wasn't doing it to make this person look like there really, really wasn't. But I was doing them to show that go educate yourself before you take this stance a little bit more. So we have this we have this problem in this country with the quote unquote, assault weapon ban. But there's, there's got to be another way around it than just the bad stuff. Because you can't just get rid of everything that causes damage. Correct. So what's what's some of the middle ground here?

Dave Voorhees: 36:31

So the middle ground is I think, again, it goes back to, I think we need to address the mental health aspect of this. You know, if you go and get a gun, you're doing a criminal background check. That's it.

Kevin Donaldson: 36:46

There's not what constitutes mental health background?

Dave Voorhees: 36:49

And so that's where it's, I've been meeting with a lot of people on what do you think we should incorporate that if you're going to get a gun legally, because someone really wants a gun? Legally, they're going to do what they need to do legally, they're going to follow the law, they're going to get their gun, they're going to do the background check whatever they need to do. But how do we start addressing the mental health aspect? One idea proposed was, well, what if we can incorporate some type of psychological screening into the 4473? Well, then some people were like, yeah, what's the 4473. So that's going to be your background check, that's going to be when you fill out your government paperwork. If you're gonna buy a long gun, you fill out the 4473. If you're going to buy a handgun, you have to fill out another set of paperwork, that's going to do not only the federal check, it's going to do your state police check as well. So that being said, it's okay. What if they start incorporating a psychological screening into that to see, well, now you have some people saying, well, that's going to violate my, my rights, that's going to violate, you know, the government doesn't need to know, if I'm mentally fit, to have a gun. They should know if you're going to have and that's, that's a little scary, because, you know, if you got a guy who was all upset about, you know, something, and now he's got a bunch of guns. I mean, what do they teach in the academy for something that for a crime to be committed? Need motive and opportunity. So now you got a guy who's motivated because he's upset about something. And he's got the opportunity, because he might have a weapon.

Kevin Donaldson: 38:15

But the thing that always scares me is who's the gatekeeper?

Dave Voorhees: 38:20

And that's where the exact where does it lie as it likes, it's who is going to be in charge of it all, and who's going to be reporting back to him? Because there's got to be accountability on all sides.

Kevin Donaldson: 38:32

The checks and balances are going to be put in place. And there's going to be people from both sides of the argument put in there who that's the way it should work. But unfortunately, the whoever's in power, whatever sides in power is going to stack the deck in, in their favor. And that's, then you're getting into that political realm. And anytime you politicize a safety issue. Yep. Man, that's just starting to get real dangerous.

Dave Voorhees: 38:56

It's very difficult, especially now with you know, anybody on any political side isn't gonna want to do much until they see what happens in November. So a lot of people are stagnant. They're like, Oh, we want to do this. We want to do that. But we want to wait until November because if our constituents don't win, well, they were kind of dead in the water so to speak.

Kevin Donaldson: 39:16

They're waiting to get reelected.

Mike Failace: 39:17

Exactly. And that is, that's the sad truth is they're waiting to get reelected. So from between now and November, what if there's, God forbid, a couple of mass shootings? Yep. Yeah, it's like, because you guys are dragging your feet. And you don't want to get this done right now. Because you want to wait till the midterms? Yep. So you're there. Pretty much letting this thing run run out of control.

Dave Voorhees: 39:38

And I say it's like trying to put a house fire out with a spray bottle. It looks like you're doing something. You're doing something but is it really addressing the problem?

Kevin Donaldson: 39:46

Well, is this I've seen this many times where it's optics. The people in power, really don't care as much as you think they care. You've come up For us a lot of different people in power is Do you think that's the case? It's more about what? How am I going to look? Do they really care about school shootings? I think at some level they do. But I hope they do, or else they're not human. But do they care about reelection?

Dave Voorhees: 40:16

And that I can't speak obviously, for politicians out there. But in my experience, in what I've seen, a lot of times, it's what's going to benefit me to get me reelected. Because again, that's their job.

Mike Failace: 40:29

And if God forbid, something happens, are they thinking about blame? You know, if they sign off on a on a gun deal, you know, then you're gonna get point. Well, this this politician signed off on it. This one didn't did so. It's more this politicians fault the net politicians, well, ultimately comes down to re election again. Yep. Because, you know, they're gonna bring that up in the mudslinging next election. Exactly.

Kevin Donaldson: 40:51

And then with the psychologic, getting back to the psychological portion of it, is what tests they're gonna give. And what standardized tests is going to be a Wonderlic test to the cops test, the MMPI. Yep, something something like that. A legal gun owner is going to do whatever they got to do to get an illegal gun. You know, so if you got to sit down here for 600, question test, they'll do it. They'll do it. They'll be grudgingly do it. Yeah. So you know, the funny thing is, you get involved you getting involved in the gun debate, you're putting yourself you're putting yourself in a very sticky, sticky situation. And because you have to make it palatable to both sides.

Dave Voorhees: 41:26

Correct. And that's a lot of my meetings have been, Listen, I'm not coming at this from pros, Republican or pro Democrat, it's about humanity. It's about what is the right thing to do. How do we bridge the gap between Republicans and Democrats? red versus blue? It's always us versus them. It's, there's got to be a common ground if everybody just doesn't want to change, and I'm always right, and you're always wrong. Well, obviously, what we're doing now is I'm working right?

Kevin Donaldson: 41:53

Well, both sides got a got to come out with a whip think both sides gotta give a little bit to correct. And

Dave Voorhees: 41:58

that's the thing, it's no, you're not going to touch our Second Amendment rights. Well, nobody's trying to touch your Second Amendment rights. Oh, you think everybody should have a gun? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Should take his hands, give him a go and say that's the thing. So people, a lot of times people will take what they want to support their own conclusions. They'll infer what they want to say, Oh, well see, I'm right. And you're

Kevin Donaldson: 42:18

wrong. But it's not the Ted Kaczynski is everybody's worried about their obviously, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. For those people who don't know, it's not that type of person that people are worried about. It's the person that I don't want to say looks like him. But maybe it looks like you, where you might have some nobody can look into your brain, nobody can see what underlying mental issues that you may have, you know, you speak, especially people with mental issues. They're very good actors, they can act apart. Yeah. And there are going to be people that slip through the cracks. Sure. But if you're able to catch one or two, out of five, one or two out of 10, it's still better than status quo, it's still better than way it is now. So there's some validity to that. But ultimately, gun control. You know, even if, let's let's take the anti stance on it, if if they want everybody to hand their guns in, well, the criminals aren't gonna hand their guns in. So we still have gun problem. And that we got a dangerous gun problem.

Mike Failace: 43:19

You know, that gets back to what you said before, if illegal gun owner wants to get a gun, they're going to do anything they have to do to get a gun, whether it takes a psych eval, you know, all so it's an illegal gun owner wants to get a gun, that illegal gun owner is gonna do anything he has to do to get a gun. Yep.

Kevin Donaldson: 43:34

And, you know, no matter what laws they put in place, and I'm telling you right now, no matter what they put into place, illegal guns are still going to come into this country smugglers because there's money in it. You know, they've been they've been fighting the drug war since the Nixon days in 1972. Well, guess what? Drugs are still coming into this country. So I think they actually just declared they lost the war on drugs, believe it or not. So and they're losing the the war on guns. I think a lot of the lot of the automatic weapons are coming from the Philippines now. So there's that problem out there and whatever. Whatever they put into play, is not going to solve illegal gun flows and illegal gun influx into this country. So what you're trying to do is you're clamping down on illegal gun owners, which I don't necessarily agree with. So whatever you do, whatever, whatever progress you make, the dance you're gonna have to do is to make it palatable to the anti in the pro. Yep. How does that happen? Like, what does that look like?

Dave Voorhees: 44:41

It's very funny because I love talking to people that don't agree with my opinion. Because if you are constantly with people that agree with you, you think you're always right, and there's no problem.

Mike Failace: 44:52

That's why I like talking to you. And you don't learn

Dave Voorhees: 44:55

you literally you don't learn anything. You don't learn how to intelligently debate You don't learn how to have a conversation because everybody you're with thinks you're right. And you think they're right. So hey, we're always right. perpetuate your own mindset. Yeah. And so it's, you know, Republicans running with Republicans and Democrats running with Democrats. And we're always right now we're always right. It's okay. Let me explain to me your point of view, why do you think I'm wrong? And you're right. And let's have an intelligent conversation instead of when you watch like, some of these political debates, it sounds like kids arguing over candy. It really does. No, you're wrong. No,

Kevin Donaldson: 45:30

you're wrong. You're You're poopy. Hey,

Mike Failace: 45:32

I know. Yeah, I know, you're borderline.

Dave Voorhees: 45:34

And it cracks me up. Because I'm like, they literally are, oh, I'm going to be different. When I get elected, I'm going to do this. And they just become more of the same

Kevin Donaldson: 45:42

know that the big the big buzz term is change, change, change, change, change? What do you got to change your underwear? What do you got to change? Your and then I've seen this in small town politics, where people get into politics with the best intentions, they really do. Especially small town, they get in, they want to change certain laws in there. And they get in there and they see what the machine is like. And they were like, nope, and then they don't run for reelection. When those are the people that should be running. Yeah, they really shut Yeah. But they just they got they lose their taste for it.

Mike Failace: 46:13

Or they go in with good intentions and get eaten up by the machine. Correct. And they don't want to do it anymore. Because it's not what they did. So that's why they get out. But like you said, that's the people who should stay in. Because they're the ones are going to make

Dave Voorhees: 46:24

a difference. Because they use those slander tactics. They drag up that, Oh, you got a parking ticket 20 years ago, so you're not fit for it.

Kevin Donaldson: 46:31

Well, that's what scares me about those those. That vetting process. It really does scare me. Because where's it stop? Yep. You know, where do they draw the line? Did you? Did you get mad? Did you have a domestic with your wife? Because you're arguing with her and the cops recall? Well, you know, listen to one point, I thought the police were going to set up a substation in my house. Are you

Mike Failace: 46:56

telling me one person who hasn't gotten argument with their spouse? Exactly.

Dave Voorhees: 46:59

It's human nature.

Kevin Donaldson: 47:01

That's that's the gay debate, because they're gonna start arguing with each other, they're gonna get divorced. And I'm like, Hey, I told you. But that's another political hot topic that we're not going to talk about right now. But there were What's the criteria? It needs to be the same for everybody, where you take the subjective nature out of it. And it goes, you know, we were discussing body cams. Yeah. Well, the people reviewing the body cams, or if that body cam shuts off, and if they don't like you, they're going to nail your acid rule. If they like you, they're gonna say, Oh, it was a malfunction. Yep. You follow me? This is going to be same thing with vetting for for gun permits? Well, we don't like this person, and he's got a parking ticket. So we're going to take that away. That ability in that subjectivity needs to be taken out of the hands.

Mike Failace: 47:46

But I don't think there's a specific checklist you can have. No, I'm saying there's not a distinct checklist to say, okay, you know, one through 10. If you check off all those boxes, you could buy yourself a gun. Yeah. Because every case is different. Every person's different.

Kevin Donaldson: 48:00

Well, let's think about some of the hot topics that if we were the lawmakers, three of us here, what are some hot topics where you think it would exclude people from having guns? I think a lot of if you had your this is pure opinion, this is not based on any law. I just want to make that very clear. Yep.

Dave Voorhees: 48:17

I mean, the first thing is, again, how do we address the mental illness crisis? Because that's the best way to describe it. It's a crisis in this country. What about since COVID, it's gotten exponentially worse, people forgot how to be human. They were locked up for so long by themselves or with their family members, that they forgot how to interact with other human beings. And I think it has to deal with how do we not only clear someone from background check criminally, but how do we address the mental illness? Do we say that they every person who wants a gun permit should have to meet with a psychiatrist, and a psychiatrist has to sign off on it? But then again, it's where do you draw the line? Well, that psychiatrists didn't like me, because, you know, I said they were ugly, so they didn't sign off.

Kevin Donaldson: 49:05

We see this in the police world. So one of the police psychiatrists, you guys should get sued by the PBA. Where he was a he was a shill of the department's department didn't want you. Yep. My department used psychological tests as punishment, because if you've taken them, there's some punishing things. I got sent for five, five, yep. And hey, listen, I pay for every one of them.

Mike Failace: 49:30

He knows how to G. He taught him so much. He knew how to answer and the first one he was a little sketchy on second, third, fourth, fifth, he aced them all

Kevin Donaldson: 49:36

our friend, our friend, our doctor friend, who we both dislike, tried to give me my six. Yep. And there's a rule that how many you can take. There's a rule. And I said, I gotta take another one is like how many have you taken? I said, this is number six. Because I can't give this to you. Because there's a certain amount of timeframe that you can only give so many of them because then you start learning the test. Yeah, so it's it invalidates the test. So yes, I invalidated the psychological tests. I, I don't know whether he was bullshitting me. I never seen any law on that. But he did not give me the test. So, you got you run into that, because it's a human test it is. It's administered by a human being. Yeah. So they need to come up, I think the first step is they need to come up with some sort of standardized test on a computer that's given by somebody that's some sort of artificial intelligence. You know, just not a person

Mike Failace: 50:29

and this psych analysis objective to, of course, there,

Kevin Donaldson: 50:33

I got, I was given the Rorschach test, there's nothing more subjective than a Rorschach test. That one looks like a blonde with big tits, and one looks like a brunette with big tits. You know. But that's, that's what they are. That's my fear with the with the mental with the psychological stuff. So it has, it's

Mike Failace: 50:48

a good way to pass a psych test. Go and grab yourself something to eat real quick before, go to like the Grand Salone. Over and Clifton, go out and get yourself some

Kevin Donaldson: 50:58

next time you come up because you're coming up, we got to take you out take you out. I'm sorry to get off topic. So grand saloon is one of our sponsors. Okay. So this is a debate that people should be having over a table over a meal. Relaxed. Yep. And that's why we go to the Grand Slam 940 Van Halen Avenue. But these these types of things need to be spoken about in a relaxed atmosphere where nobody's gonna get offended. Yep, nobody's gonna get their butt hurt. That happens all too often. So in my mind, one of the things that needs to get fixed as the way a psychological test is administered to make people feel at ease. They take the personal element out of it. Yeah. So what do you think are some of the things that we can find some if we had a law to make? What do you think are some, like, certain crimes that should exclude you from having a gun?

Mike Failace: 51:51

Won't be violent crimes.

Dave Voorhees: 51:54

But then it's what about domestic violence? It should there be a three strike limit? Or because you know, you get a

Kevin Donaldson: 52:02

three strike limit that so that's a good one. That's a good one.

Dave Voorhees: 52:04

But if you think about it, you know what if your spouse's I know that he's going to be on a three strike limit. So we're arguing, I'm calling the police. You get those people that abuse the system? You know, we had a call last night where they wanted to say shots were fired. About a domestic there was no shots fired. But how do you get the cops come quick?

Kevin Donaldson: 52:26

So ultimately, this debate is going to stagnate

Dave Voorhees: 52:30

until it like it like it has been Yeah. And that's the thing. Nobody wants to budge. Nobody wants to say yeah, you know, let's give a little bit. Let's take a little bit. Let's make this work. It's no, you're not going to touch it or take it all away.

Mike Failace: 52:44

What do you think about if you're illegal gonna gun owner having to qualify with that gun? Police Police have to do it twice a year? Yep. And why shouldn't every legal gun owner at their own expense, go to one of these, you know, with a gun for hire, or whatever those places are, and you pay X amount you have to qualify with

Dave Voorhees: 53:02

that gun? Well, to your point, if you want to drive a car, how do you drive a car,

Mike Failace: 53:06

you have to get your license, you have to pass that test.

Kevin Donaldson: 53:08

Test if you're going to carry OC OC or pepper spray. Yep, you got to get sprayed with pepper spray. You know, unfortunately, you can't get shot with a gun to carry gun. But one of the ways to do that is just put up a London broil or piece of roast beef, shoot a bullet through that. See what it does to it will give you a pretty good idea.

Dave Voorhees: 53:25

Now in order for us to carry Taser where to get tased. Say you know what it feels like?

Kevin Donaldson: 53:29

Thank God, I didn't have to do that.

Dave Voorhees: 53:31

Oh man, that tickled with a piston ship myself.

Mike Failace: 53:34

I was an OC instructor. So I got sprayed with a ton of time. Whenever we're getting back to qualifications, yeah, you get that gun, you go to qualify it. Here's another caveat. What if you fail your qualification? What happens with that gun?

Dave Voorhees: 53:47

Not even that what happens? If all right, you buy this gun? And you qualify? Do you now have to if you buy a revolver, do you have to qualify with that? You buy another caliber of the same gun that you just bought? Do that qualify with that? Or is it Oh, you qualified with a nine millimeter? So whether it's Glock or saying or whatever, you know, how nine millimeter shoots?

Kevin Donaldson: 54:07

Have you worked this out with the people you spoke to in power?

Dave Voorhees: 54:11

So that's where it hits some stagnant water right now one, nobody wants to do anything till November, because they want to see how the elections come out. Okay, well, you know, my constituents not going to get elected. So forget it. There's no point in doing this. Or oh, we got elected now. We're all gung ho and we're ready to go.

Mike Failace: 54:28

Yep. And then then it'll drag on. And on until the next election. Yeah, no, no, say, well, let's wait. You know, let's wait to see how this presidential election goes. And then we'll, that's why nothing gets done because they could just keep dragging their

Dave Voorhees: 54:41

feet. And then it's Let's have a meeting and then let's meet about that meeting. So we can talk about another meeting that we're gonna have later on. And it's like, alright, well, when do we actually get something done?

Kevin Donaldson: 54:53

We keep trying to fight the good fight. You know, I think that's what you're doing. You're trying to fight the good fight. You see a problem? You don't necessarily have the answer. You can put forth some suggestions. You know, you're not advising anybody yet. Because that's there's the difference between suggestion and advice. If you advice, advise somebody you own it. But if you suggest they can choose to take your suggestion or not, yep. But you're willing to talk about it. Yeah. And it sounds like some of the people you're getting in front of are willing to talk about it as well.

Dave Voorhees: 55:28

And that's what I'm trying to get people to do is say, Listen, I'm not coming from this as one side or the other. I'm coming from this as how do we bridge the gap? How do we get the ball rolling?

Kevin Donaldson: 55:39

I think we just need to keep, keep going until we find the answer. Because it only takes one person to come and say, Hey, I got an idea. And that idea may have legs. And that idea may be the true path on how to get there. But it's going to take that one person to speak up.

Mike Failace: 55:56

Yep. And possibly an influential person.

Kevin Donaldson: 56:00

So how do we find you?

Dave Voorhees: 56:03

So I'm on LinkedIn right now. You can find me under my first and last name popped right out. And then you and I earlier, were talking about Instagram and all that stuff like that, you gotta get that answer. Yeah, get on there. So that way, we can start getting the ball rolling. Well, you have about three weeks

Kevin Donaldson: 56:18

to get an Instagram before this show airs. That way we can put it in our show notes. Yeah. Because I'm sure there's some people and again, the more we're you had asked earlier, when we were sitting down talking what's what's the purpose of social media, where people need to reach you, because that one person who you're not in front of may actually have a good idea. And you may be able to run with that idea, because you seem to have the resources now, in order to get in front of the right people, and you have certain people's ears in order to try to get something done. You know, ultimately, at the end of the day, we got to figure something out. Right? I mean, this is a problem, whether it's training our young kids how to resolve their conflicts, or qualifications, or psychological tests, whatever it may be. There is an answer out there. Absolutely. There is an answer out there. And I don't think that answer is banning guns.

Dave Voorhees: 57:10

Now, because all that's going to do is keep illegal gun owners from accessing guns,

Kevin Donaldson: 57:15

and they're not going to turn it Gunson. I hate to tell you legal never. They're gonna say fight me for him.

Dave Voorhees: 57:19

Put it this way. Look at the Australian gun ban. What happened there?

Kevin Donaldson: 57:22

Crime? What up? Tech? Oh, wow. Nobody, nobody

Dave Voorhees: 57:25

wants to admit that. But there was a gun ban. And crime went up exponentially as is still banned. I don't believe so. Some would have to fact check me to make sure. But when I did a college paper on it at that time, it went up exponentially because they said guns are the problem. Let's get rid of guns. Everybody turn in your guns. They got rid of guns. And what happens when a criminal realizes Hey, you know what? That's guns.

Kevin Donaldson: 57:52

How do we what about England? So England? I know there's guns in England. There's a lot of guns in England. But I know the police aren't the even though.

Dave Voorhees: 58:02

They do that armed and non armed police officers. Yeah.

Kevin Donaldson: 58:05

So one of my one of my guys had sponsored me for, for Freemason was Scotland Yard. And he looked me right in the eye. And he goes, there's plenty guns. We got plenty of guns. Yeah. So I, you know, I don't think I just don't know what the answer is. I really don't know what the answer is. I know, you know, but bottom line is, since I don't like guns, yet, it's my choice whether I want to go

Dave Voorhees: 58:28

Yeah. And that's 100%. Your choice. You know, someone can say I don't believe in guns. That's, that's fine. Nobody's saying you have to own a gun. You can say I don't believe in guns and I want only one. That's fine. But you should not infringe on the person that believes in their right to own a gun.

Mike Failace: 58:43

I just think that the common? I'm not even gonna say the common answer. First of all, common sense. And education can Whoa.

Kevin Donaldson: 58:56

lot to handle?

Mike Failace: 58:57

No, I'm just talking about not owning a gun. Going through the Second Amendment, or meeting somewhere in the middle, you got to take some kind of common sense and education, doesn't it?

Dave Voorhees: 59:08

And I think, you know, it really does boil down to we want to blame the guns. We want to blame the guns. It's not the guns fault. It's not a gun problem to people problem.

Mike Failace: 59:17

It's how that gun got into his hands and why it got into his hands.

Dave Voorhees: 59:21

And I tell people since I've been serving in 2011, I've responded to more fatal car crashes than I have shootings. Obviously for each department that's going to be subjective because if you go to some cities where there's a high crime area, maybe they do go to more shootings. Me personally, I've been to more fatal car accidents. I've had more people die in my arms. I've had more people when I show up, they're already DOA. So is that saying that we have car problem? Where is that saying that we have drivers that need to learn how to be better drivers.

Kevin Donaldson: 59:54

I think you're having you hit the nail on the head with that one. It's it's a it's a pro In your opinions with common sense and education, which is what I think Mike was, Mike was trying to say, you know, when you have a very strong opinion, step back and think if it's super strong step back and think about it for a second before you let it out.

Mike Failace: 1:00:14

And how about an open mind? That says, Oh, thank

Kevin Donaldson: 1:00:17

you, Jennifer, for that social media question. So

Dave Voorhees: 1:00:19

many people are like, No, I'm right. You disagree with me, you're wrong.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:00:23

So I want to thank you so much for coming in today. I really appreciate it. I think it's there's a way that's it's a debate that's ongoing, it's constantly evolving, but anything to to make both sides come come together. You know, this might be the one time in recent history that both sides are going to be able to come together and agree on something. Yeah. But I thank you from the bottom.

Mike Failace: 1:00:48

Just getting back to the social media thing. I'm not a big social media guy saying but if you do have social media, someone may give you suggestions on your soulmate, someone that you may have never met before, you know, you would have never had the opportunity to and those are the people I well, they'll give you some they may open your eyes to something. Yeah, they may agree with with something. And they may disagree with with something, but maybe you can meet some common ground in that. So that's the only thing that I see would be able to see you using social media for because I don't use it.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:01:19

Now use it more than you think. It'll get frequent. But

Mike Failace: 1:01:23

that's someone I would have never met before.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:01:25

Exactly. Next year with certain people. Yeah. You've been at this for quite some time this debate. Yep. And you've seen the suffering of trying to change opinion, change values, to ultimately facilitate a safer environment in the world? Yep. What do you think it's taught you?

Dave Voorhees: 1:01:44

We have to work together. We have to work together, perfect as police officers, how many times they show up on a call where it's a domestic and what's our job? defuse the situation? Sometimes people just want to be heard. Other times people feel like they're not being heard. And it's just how do we come together for greater common good, not about your personal beliefs? Or your you know, I think I'm right or no personal agendas, it's agendas, it's put all those aside. And this may be dumb, but you know, as a parent, what's best for my kid in the future?

Kevin Donaldson: 1:02:22

Right, what is best leaving this world to them?

Dave Voorhees: 1:02:24

What is in our best interest in the future?

Kevin Donaldson: 1:02:27

Once again, I thank you for coming in. This was this was interesting. It was interesting.

Mike Failace: 1:02:33

We could have kept going,

Kevin Donaldson: 1:02:34

we could probably go on for quite a while. That's gonna do it for this episode of the suffering podcast. And as always, we think about what we learned. First thing I learned is Dave needs Instagram.

Dave Voorhees: 1:02:45

I'll be jumping on that one. So stay tuned.

Kevin Donaldson: 1:02:47

That's the big one. guns aren't for everybody. Don't perpetuate your own mindset. Approach your opinions with common sense and education, but most importantly, anything in the wrong hands is dangerous. And that's gonna do it for this episode of the suffering podcast, the suffering of guns with Dave Vorhees, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Follow Mike at Mike underscore Felice.

Mike Failace: 1:03:12

Follow me real Kevin Donaldson soon to follow Dave on Instagram. By the

Kevin Donaldson: 1:03:16

time this airs we'll be looking forward. And of course follow this suffering podcast if you like what we're putting out Subscribe and Like don't forget to hit the bell so you get notified of all our new videos. And we will see you on the next episode of suffering podcast.