How To Diversify & Improve Your Hiring Process! Feat. Herb Courtney

Welcome to the unscripted, authentic leadership podcast, a podcast where we are seeking to lead change while also seeking to understand. We're also there as a platform for leaders to come together to unite, to develop and empower other leaders in the areas of business, family and community. I'm your host, Lafayette Lane, joined by my co-host John Lebrun. Today we are joined by our special guest, Herb Courtney. You know what time it is? Put those hands together, put those clap emoji's in the comments section. Make Herb feel real good right here on the platform. He has joined us to have an amazing conversation about how to diversify and improve your hiring process. Just a little bit about her. Courtney is the CEO of Renaissance search and consulting firm dedicated to connecting companies with the highest quality candidates from an extensive pool of diverse candidates with top notch skills, experience and work ethic. Herb has been involved within intercollegiate athletics for over 15 years. seven of those years as the Vision one assistant coach before her time in coaching, he was a very successful recruiter and sales manager for an I.T. recruiting firm. And Herb has a passion and background that makes him and his firm uniquely qualified to discuss how you can diversify and improve your hiring process. And today he's right here on script. Authentic Leadership podcast. Her Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me, and thank you for such a great introduction. Yes, I appreciate that you make me look good. So happy to be here and happy. Happy to. I'm excited to have this conversation with you all. We're happy to have you. Let's get right into the conversation. I'm excited about this because we've had topics about diversity before, but you do in the sports arena. And of course, John and I. We love sports, of course, football, basketball. So I'm excited to kind of delve in that area because I think it's kind of talked about, but not probably as much as it should be when it comes to diversity. And there's a whole plethora of areas that we can deal with when it comes to the leadership in the sports arena. The first question I want to ask you is what do you think is lacking in the sports world concerning diversity? What are the things that you see that that's lacking in the sports world concerning diversity? Well, I think athletics in general, we kind of rely on just because it is athletics and they think it's a very an attractive industry and everybody wants to work there. So. So I think it's a little lax in terms of the hiring practices, right? And so I think in athletics, you know, they rely a lot on social networks. So if the decision maker and an aide or whoever wants is looking to hire someone, they might call their friend or they might, or someone who has kind of very closely connected with them. And usually that's going to be someone who's the same age, probably same race right side. It's not and doesn't yield diversity, you know, so we could do a better job of that. Another thing is a lot of the times institutions will just post jobs on maybe this or H.R. portal or, you know, sometimes jobs aren't even posted at all. Right? So I think number one is jobs that job descriptions and making sure that there's not a lot of bias in there. And then to where are we posting these jobs? Are you posting it and different networks to attract more diverse individuals? And I think we just can't rely on say, Hey, this is who we are or this is the job and whoever comes in applies. That's what we're gonna, you know, kind of select from. So I think it's got to be a little bit more intentional where how we kind of find our candidates and that's where we come into play renaissance as we will help institutions and organizations kind of identify diverse talent and and that fits their culture and what they're looking for. And you don't have to sacrifice that to have diversity. And I think, you know, you just got to know where to look and making sure that you are, you know, advertising your job and places where people can see it. You said that's that's something that you guys do at Renaissance, what are some of those like specific things that other companies can glean from that? You guys have found success in doing that they can incorporate in their hiring process. And I know you did what talent acquisition, diversity, acquisition of things of that nature. What are some specific things that companies can do to diversify their hiring process? Yeah, I think there is. There is little wins that you can, you know, you can have in terms of trying to acquire diverse talent. And what I mean by that is, you know, I always say, you know, within your own organization, there's I hope there are some diversity within that organization and, you know, using using your own employees, especially diverse employees, to tap into their networks, right? And I think that sometimes gets overlooked, right? And but number one, you need to understand what their experience experiences within that organization as a diverse individual, right? And if there's if there's issues there, they're not going to be, you know, speaking great on your behalf, right about the organization. So I think no one is having that understanding and then to using them right to to be able to create more diversity within your own organization through referrals and employee resource resource groups. So I think that's one too is identifying certain networks that that you can lean in and tap into, right? So it could be skillset specific, you know, it could be there's different trade organizations where you can create partnerships. Where I know it's been a trend recently is creating partnerships with different, diverse organizations, maybe like hbcu's or, you know, some other diverse networks as well. So there's a lot of different things that you can pull from to to create that diversity and being more intentional, that doesn't take a lot of time, right? You just have to be a little bit more intentional. You know, some other organizations, maybe you know, the black MBAs, right? Or various different fraternities, our sororities at the college level that you can fall from and those usually have tons of, you know, just variety of ethnicities, right where you can support from. So there's there's different things that you can do. You just got to be a little bit more intentional in working with H.R. to do that. And I think I think H.R. departments are, you know, most of them are overworked and they have a ton of positions and things like that they're trying to to to fill. But I'm sure some of them do have those relationships where they can pull from and especially there's, you know, pipeline and things like that where you can create kind of that diverse pipeline of individuals for opportunities in the future. You know, so and I have my own thoughts on this thing on this, but I think it's a pertinent question just for somebody to consider. And I think you could answer it, and it's pretty simple just. Why should a company focus like from a company standpoint? I think sometimes they they get so stuck on the track of just put the job description out there or just whatever has the best resume. We'll just we will hire that person, right? But that doesn't mean it's the best person for the company, for the culture of the company, for the direction of the culture of the company . So why should a company focus in their hiring practices or put a system in and their hiring practices to focus on building diverse teams? Yeah, I mean, I know you could probably go a couple of ways on this question, but I think one is just the benefit of diversity, right? Yeah. It leads to teams are more productive, more innovative. Make more money. Right. So I think sometimes organizations or firms view it as a social responsibility, but it's a financial responsibility that they really need to look at it through that lens because if you're looking at this through a business case, it makes way more sense to have a diverse team than non-diverse, right? And I think when you can kind of put it in dollars and a monetary gain and how it's advantageous for that firm or organization to have a diverse team, then it's a little different. And then secondly. You know, when they understand the importance of it. You know, it's also for it to really stick with an organization has to be a part of that, the fabric, right, it just can't be, hey, we're just going to hire new people of color or women and then check the box. We're going to go. I'm so glad you said that. You know, there has to be from the top down important, you know, and recognizing, yes, diversity is an important inclusion is important. And you want to give the best experience to your employees, right, because you can hire all of the diverse talent you want. But if you don't have an inclusive culture, they're going to leave in six months anyway. Right? And then you're going to be stuck. It's going to be a revolving door. So it really has to be in being inclusive and being equitable and and having valuing diversity has to be a part of that organization and has to touch not just talent acquisition, but it's got to touch communications and how you market your your, your, your brand and your company and and and the messaging. And and what does the pictures in your your website look like? Is it inclusive? Do you have, you know, people from all different cultures and backgrounds on there? Do people feel like they can be a part of that brand or organization, right? When they just looking at it, you know, and a lot of times. No, that's not the case. You know, organizations will say, Yes, we are, but you look at their website, you look at their executive team, you look at everything else and it's not very diverse, right? So you can really kind of. Pick apart, you know, this is really a core fun piece of that company, so I think it starts with that. And then the oldest trick of the rule. Right. And to really value the importance of diversity and how it is not just like you said, it is a great social thing to do, but it's also a financial responsibility you have for your own organization and external shareholders as well. It is a good social thing, but I think. Companies are really hurting themselves by not diversifying the their hiring process. Yes, it is a good social cause to do, but if they would just look at what they're missing, like the the innovation and all these things that they're not considering, like they don't have to consider the social cause and they would be moving themselves to create a diverse company with different backgrounds, different upbringings, different views on the world, especially if you're creating products and services that you're offering to people. There's got to be so many, so many perspectives that you can't possibly consider because you you can't have someone else's perspective, right? I didn't grow up in Lafayette. He didn't grow up the same as me. I used to work at an auto software company, and it was simple. Somebody would say it was diverse. It was like 99.9% white and mean, like, it was like the opposite. And what were they would do is say, Well, we have our hiring process. I mean, is a good company to get me wrong, but they're the hiring process was we take a test and then based on test results that that's who comes in to the company, OK? But the problem then, I said, was like, OK, well, that means that you're not even having enough people from other backgrounds. Take your test, right? It's not like it's not like only white folks who are smart enough to pass your test, right? It can't be the case. So it has to go down to who are the applicants. And they obviously weren't targeting enough people from other backgrounds to do to take for the application process. And I think about where the innovative products. Yes. But imagine how how far ahead of competition they could be if they actually do what you're talking about and make that an inclusive part of their hiring process. Website communication making sure all that when you when you have this companies big, they have 2000 or 3000 employees. So you think of all the different departments, right? How do you how do you make sure every department is also part of that inclusivity in the hiring process and so forth? I get it's a it's a lot of work to do, but imagine how much further ahead they would be from competition just based on all the perspectives that would be included in that company. And I love what you said about the inclusion. Can I take a step back in? You mentioned a job description bias. Can you unpack that? I kind of like, put a star next to that. Yeah. I mean, I just think there is a certain things, you know, within job descriptions that you know, this eliminates, you know, people just from not number one, produced from language, right? And, you know, not them not feeling inclusive. And then, you know, a lot of the times, especially when I'm working with especially more on the corporate side of things. But, you know, it could be a manager position and they said, you need an MBA degree in the well y right. Like, you know, if, if, if this is the job and these are skills needed, how does having an MBA requirement for this job? And when you kind of push back on it and are like, Oh, you're right, you probably don't need it. Well, we probably shouldn't have it in there, you know what I mean? Because you're just eliminating a whole bunch of applicants that you know, that can do the job, but maybe not have a they'll have a grad degree or can someone with an associate's degree. But you know, they've been working in this industry for five, six, seven years of experience and doing a high level. You told me they can do this job either, you know, so I think it's kind of unpacking that and and kind of opening their eyes to saying, Hey, I don't I understand you want to have someone who's great, but you can have someone who's great that has an associates degree or just a bachelors degree. You don't need to have a masters or some other type of credential to do this job. And so I think it's our responsibility and my job, as you know, search consultant, to let them know that right. And I think a lot of them are open to that and they're like, what? They really think about that, right? And and it does open the pull. It does bring in more diversity. And at the end of the day, I think that that Canada pool that four or five is that we all hone on in as will be way stronger than having the person with the master's or, you know, some other type of credential that's not needed for the job. So they're thinking, if I if I filter this deeper, then it'll make give me more of a. You were sort of topped with cream of the crop applicants, and you're saying, no, you're actually restricting yourself from a larger pool of potentially amazing applicants for a smaller pool, which there could be good applicants in there, but you're literally just taking the pool of applicants and filtering it down. That's the. That's great. What role does does leadership, representation and leadership play in the hiring process? Now again, want our audience to understand that you are in the sports field, you're in the sports arena. And so we've seen things like the NFL come up with the the Rooney Rule that has been in effect since 2003. Now it's so 18 years yet and still, we don't really have that many. African-American head coaches, we have a lot of assistant coaches, are specialty coaches and let alone African-American owners. And so I think that are part of the systemic problem is that there are a lot of ownership that does not understand a lot of the quote unquote workers that are working for them. And so yet the hiring process is some. There's a disconnect between the top and those that are underneath because a lot of the ownership is not diversified. What? How important? I'm sure you've seen that firsthand, how important that is to have diversity when it comes to the actual ownership. Yeah, I mean, that is it is huge and obviously ownership or the president level and college athletics. It isn't very diverse. And I mean, that's just a fact, right? And I think the kind of the challenges, you know, sometimes is making sure that they understand or they they have a opening up their networks right to individuals of diverse backgrounds and and making sure they get to know them right. Because I think sometimes, you know, especially, you know, black coaches or NFL coaches, they don't have access to that level, right? So that we can be more intentional in giving them more exposure to the owner than, you know, presidents. Then I think they have more of a shot of getting some of those opportunities. And I do think, you know, the Rooney Rule and you know, it is it's good and bad, right? Because I do see the benefit of it. You know, I do think it's great that coaches are getting experience interviewing and and and making sure that, you know, they're prepared and and going through that process. And you know, there is there is something to that. But if they never get hired, then it's kind of all for nothing, right? So I think. And obviously got more social pressure, right in terms of, you know, thing and and and and players wanting to see more diversity at that level, both on the professional and collegiate level. It's going to help, I think, partnerships right where, you know, the bigger brands that support each entity in professional sports like football and NBA and college, the more pressure that they're kind of brand or partnerships like a coke or something like that puts on them, it's going to help drive that. But at the end of the day, you know, when when coaches do have the opportunities it, you know, making sure that they're successful and and giving them all the resources that they can to run a great program or team, you know, so there can be more. Right. So there's more success stories out there and saying, hey, when given opportunities. They they've been very successful, so I do think it's a slow at the slow race and it's whatever you know, do we want to be further along? Absolutely. And like I've always said, especially since the now jarred the murder of George Floyd, and there's been this super hyper focus awareness on diversity and inclusion, which is great. But I hope it's just not a moment of time, right? Or, you know, in college sports this year in college men, the women's college basketball. I mean, I can't remember the last time there were so many people of color hired as coaches, right? And both on the men's and women's side. And then, you know, I just hope that that trend continues right? And and that they're given opportunities and just not a moment of time because of where we are in society, but that this will continue to this will continue to play and and giving people opportunities that deserve it, not we're not just handing, you know, unqualified people jobs. I mean, unqualified coaches and administrators that deserve opportunities that just don't get it. And it's time that they start having their fair shake and good jobs. I think the other side of that opportunity, and I think that's great what you said, that was awesome. Not looking for a handout, but also, hey, if you're not going to give me an opportunity, I'll go build my own right. So hence we have the ABC news and I just think that yesterday we saw something incredible with Deion Sanders, right, head coach of Jackson State University. He gets the number one recruit in the nation to flip from going to Florida State University, and the kid lives in Florida State, living in Florida, right to go to a HBCU program that some would suggest. You know, why would you do that? They don't have so many resources and things like that. But I think it's moves like that that, hey, if you're not going to let me in the door, I'll go create my own door, right? Yeah. How important is that? Because I believe your entrepreneur that started your own. You didn't wait for somebody to give you opportunity. Right? So those that are looking for, Hey, man, if you're not going to pick up my resume, you see that I'm more than qualified for the job. I'll go build my own operates. I build my own platform. How important is that aspect? I mean, that is very important. And you know, and that was a historic move that we witnessed yesterday or tonight, and I think people will dismiss it. You know, Don and I must be the initial deal that he's got to get it or whatever. But no, you know, he worked his tail off to get Travis Hunter, the number one recruit in the nation, committed to Jackson State right and sold. And he sold his vision and and and created a path for him where he felt comfortable to commit to Jackson State. And yeah, and Deon, you know that that that was that was amazing to see. And you know, I just completed the search at Grambling State. We hired Hue Jackson right at the time. You know, football head coach, NFL only. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he he was in the Browns, Browns and the Raiders, and he was a longtime assistant at Cincinnati. And you know, so to be able to attract those caliber of professionals at HBCU level is amazing, right? And I think this is going to continue to happen. And and we need to celebrate that because, you know, it is a rich in history and it is, you know, it's great sports and and we just need to embrace and celebrate that. And I'm just happy that, you know, now we have a platform to do that. And I hope more kids, you know, really consider a historically black college. You know, I think people forget they don't realize the amount of work that someone like Deon had to put in moving. It's not like he just was hired a coach and snagged a player like he had a career. Then he spent years building a brand. Obviously, his prime personality. And then he went to Jackson State, and he had a six been two seasons now. I think, yes, I think he's had helped turn the program. They've been doing well. I understand they're not right. Really, to count on, they've been doing really well. Yeah, I've been following it periodically. And so he's not been it's not like it's a slouch school that he's just kind of it's because Deon is a coach. Like, he turned the program around and now you see what he's doing to make it even bigger. And now the name is going to get even larger and people are going to pay attention for not just last year, but this year. And I have to assume that he's probably had even other offers to other schools having an eleven one season that he must have turned down or just kind of dismissed. Because as coaches have successful careers, we've seen a University of Cincinnati coaches have successful careers. They go to a bigger school now. Another has another big year this year. I don't know it's going to happen, but typically what happens is they leave the university Dayton here. They have a basketball program coach comes in does really well. See, you know, a couple. Yeah, but that's the thing. Sometimes, especially with black coaches, you would think beyond. We get tons of offers, but I'm sure he has, you know, because of we know it is what people perceive as what you're getting right in the bigger, you know, now. Yeah, that part, you know, some of the personality and kind of what comes with it and all the media. And you know, I think an aid has to be very secure with him or herself to hire someone like that, right? And he doesn't have a bad background. You know what I'm saying? He would be the ultimate promotion. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not traditional. Yes. I mean, I get what you're saying. Yeah, he doesn't isn't. He's not going to sound like coach at Opodo. He's very nontraditional and people don't. Some people don't like that, right? So, yeah, I mean, I think that that's absolutely the example that just came on my. I was Cam Newton. Now we know that he's been injured and things like that. You know, he hasn't committed any crimes, but yet it's like this man is being blackballed because he comes with the hat. He has dreadlocks, things of that nature and he's not the traditional. We know what traditional means. He's not the white quarterback that's went to the Ivy League schools. So he's not a Tom Brady that comes to the podium, all buttoned up and doesn't say the the protocol, the PC things. That's an issue. two systems, right? And so his we have that systemic racism that, like you said about the Deion Sanders, that, hey, he's probably a better head coach than 90% of the coaches that you see. Yet he will not get those opportunities on the next level because he's not fitting the mold. Mm-Hmm. Now, do you think? I don't know if it's going to happen or not, but I predict a lot of the sports teams over time. You see, I'm starting to see that baseball I follow baseball is as teams come for sale. There's there's you call like groups that are purchasing a sports team, right? So like tech tech companies and so forth are purchasing these baseball teams. And with that, you're starting to see baseball, which was super white for a long time. It's getting more diverse each year, and it's becoming a lot more fun to watch. The popularity is basically an all time high. Personalities are infinitely more fun to watch now than they ever have been the athletes at an all time high level . And so baseball, which is always been boring for most people, is becoming fun to watch. But I think part of that could be because you're starting to see the ownership changes because how many people can really afford to purchase the next, you know, an accountability and they're expensive, they're not like they are now because sports are at all time expensive things. So these tech companies use large other companies that are very progressive will be purchasing these teams going forward. And I don't know if that's going to be a trend or not, but I predict it could be, which I feel like has to have a positive impact on. The ownership and the views of the ownership being that a lot of these owners will be more progressive thoughts. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I just looked at it and saw something it might be that might have been on Twitter that LeBron was part of some group that purchased some team. And part of their portfolio now is the Pittsburgh Penguins. He was wearing the Penguins jersey yesterday or something like that. And so, yeah, I think that like definitely brings awareness and engages people that traditionally probably wouldn't care. Now that I know LeBron is part owner of the Pittsburgh Penguins, I'll probably buy it. Ed, I love hockey. Yeah, it's getting ready to be a big hockey fan next week for the Columbus Blue Jackets. You know, I'm not the something that never interested me. I mean, I did grow up in Buffalo. I know the sabers were right there, but I had no interest in hockey. But now you know, LeBron, who I like a lot as part owner and now I'm interested in all the same thing with, like I said, some of the baseball teams and things of that nature. And yes, I do think that that is a good thing for sports and having, you know, athletes having minority stakes in some of these teams. I know Dwayne Wade has, you know, some ownership and some team Utah Jazz. Yes. Yeah, the Utah Jazz. Yeah. So which I think is great. I think it gives access to ownership to, you know, to athletes and definitely helps with diversity. That and I think they can bring ideas and and and new things, innovative ways to to engage, right? And I think you saw that early magic when he was always, you know, he got involved with the Dodgers. You know, some other, you know, so I mean, that's great. And I used his likeness and and were able to do some some cool things to to engage more fans. So I think that's I think that's a positive thing in sports. What are some is there, is there a characteristics or a way that a company can develop a system of a company saying, all right, we need to change how we do our hiring practices? I feel like like just saying we hired somebody or five people or whatever is short term thinking, like how can someone develop an actual system to make sure that their hiring processes are better? Yeah. I mean, that is obviously pretty comprehensive and it takes, you know, some type in investment, right, where you're probably going to need to, you know, loop in maybe strategies or, you know, someone who could really help. Implement and lay out what what does that look like for you and your organization over the next three, five years ? How are we going to build that out, right? Because at the core, you need to understand where you are now and then kind of plane and to where you want to be right and then have some metrics in place to get the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. So that is that's very important and I think it takes a lot of time and planning and and how you want to get there, whether that's through creating pipelines, internships, how how you hiring, what are your metrics in terms of where you are and and and who's kind of in your organization and how you get there? So I just think you know that it just takes a lot of thought and intentionality. And if you look at a lot of the companies that have, you know, put statements out in terms of, Hey, we're going to hire 25% more of this or that or people of color or women in leadership roles. And you know, that all depends on your company where you are right in terms of women, women of color, other ethnicities, LGBT plus communities, veterans. You know, I think a lot of the times organizations think of hiring more diverse, honestly people of color or black people right now because of this kind of the social. But it's so much more than that, right? It's it's diversity, you know, and you just can't. Yeah, you just can't eliminate just one race, right? And I think we have to to to really be inclusive. We have to take account, you know, all those different backgrounds and where you want to be. And I do think obviously people of color and women and and, you know, the LGBT class and you know, those are kind of tangible metrics that I think you can put together and see where you are and where and where you need to be. But yeah, it just has to be kind of kind of well thought out. You need to know where you are and then putting a plan and then having outcomes right to to so you can measure that and hold, you know, hiring managers accountable and kind of really all throughout the organization. And then obviously reward as well. You want to reward your organization or meeting those metrics. Right. And I think if you do that, you know, that incentivizes the right behaviors. Hmm. I love that, I love that even though it's kind of crazy that we have to incentivize people to hire certain people. That's a whole nother topic for a whole other day. But yeah, but you know what? We incentivize for everything else to really incentivize workers for getting certain, trying to get clients or hiding certain financial metrics in the business world or, you know, people respond to incentives. Is it just, you know, is how it is? And I think it's good to reward that, right? I do. I think it's good to reward what you're trying to have a desired outcome. And you know, I do think that as an organization, if it felt in a way where it's authentic, right? And like I said, this kind of goes back to making sure our DNA is a fabric of your organization and not just tied to hiring. It's got to be tied to everything within your organization, not just hiring promotion out there. Absolutely. You know, so if you do, if the organization does that, then I think incentivizing and rewarding people for the right things is good. You know, obviously, if it's just say, Hey, we just need to hire some more diversity and not do it, then yeah, it's going to be met on deaf ears and it's not going to be very successful. But yeah, it's just it does take an investment. You do have to probably retrain behaviors and identify things within the organization that that could lead to, you know, employees not feeling inclusive or not having that psychological safety within your organization where they feel like they can't bring their best selves to work. But I think once you unpack that and people feel safe and they can, you know, they can bring their best selves, and then I think you're moving toward that, that inclusive environment. And then, yeah, I think, you know, people, you'll see higher retention. People are going to be happier and you know, you're you're striving and you're striving to that, to that desire culture that you're that you're trying to achieve. Yeah, I think the incentivizing would help create a a more intentionality. Right. Because I'm sure there's people out there who are like, I only want to hire this type of person. There's probably a lot of people who just so consciously don't. Put enough intent in the thought into it and intentional works into this, I think the incentives would help for that. Yeah. And then if you don't hit certain metrics or goals, you shouldn't be compensated or maybe you don't get a bonus or whatever. There should be negative penalties as well, if you don't, if you're not on board with it, right? Because you're not on the same path of the organization. So there should be both ways. Gotcha. It's a good point should obviously be attainable goals as well. Yeah, but someone's not on board with the direction, I thought, and then I think you would see that in performance and they would eventually filter out. Right? And then you can change that. Super interesting. Or can you give us one last piece of advice or whatever you feel in your heart that would be helpful to those that are listening? What if that's a strategy, whatever you feel, you know, close us out, man. No, thank you. Now my biggest thing is authenticity, right? So whatever you do, be authentic with it. I know, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion is a hot topic and it's a buzz word and and people are trying to get better, which is great, but I think no one is. Be aware. Educate yourself. You know, surround yourself with people that can help you through this and navigate navigate this kind of process of trying to be more intentional in building out your processes. And you know, you don't you don't have to do it alone, but you don't do things that just it's just to do it just because it's the flavor of the month today, right? I think people can see right through that. Like, even for me, I don't work with clients that I feel that are just trying to check a box. You know what I mean? That's that's not what I'm here for, and I'm not going to play someone in an organization that no, you know, that's like, Hey, where where? You know, this is not what I signed up for, right? You know, so, you know, so I'm really big on that, and I think people can see that and feel that. So no, so that that that's something that I feel very passionate about. And, you know, if it's not something that you know and then you surround yourself with people that can help you, you're right. And it'll be way more impactful than trying to lead something that you don't have a passion for. You don't really believe so. I'd rather you work with others that can help you through that and and kind of make your way through it. Hmm. Stay connected for you can do that several ways on Instagram at HTC, I also can connect with him on the purportedly. Check them out. Connect with him there. Check out his company. He's doing amazing things. Stay connected here with us. Unscripted, @uncriptedleadership on all social media platforms. Check out our website, unscripted-leadership.com. Of course, a podcast is available wherever you get your podcast on all streaming platforms. Again, we say thank you to our amazing guests are rewarded for having this awesome conversation on how to diversify and improve your hiring process. And as I say to all of our black excellence, as they come on our podcast, Mark is going what your doing and showing that black excellence may happen to our audience. We pray that you be the leader that God has called you to be. We're here to build bridges and not walls. Bridges connect and walls divide, until next time, God bless.