Transcript
WEBVTT
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so when we start to understand when we integrate these wounds and integrate these traumas.
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A powerful gift emerges and that's often what we're meant to give to the world is the gift of the wound that we experienced when we were younger.
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our emotional experience, not to say that we're meant to become overwhelmed by or lost in the swamp of emotions, but that those emotions are actually the building blocks of of helping us finding the thing that we're supposed to do in the world.
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All right.
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Welcome to the new age, human podcast.
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Let me host Jon Astacio and today's episode.
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We're talking with James Eshelman.
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Now, James is a psychedelic guide, transformational coach, and thought leader.
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If you're interested in the intersection between masculinity and psychedelics, healing wounds of the past and the reality of trauma.
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You've come to the right episode.
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Now, before we begin, I just ask, we're looking to grow the show and I want to hear from you.
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So what's working, what's not working.
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What do you want to hear more about?
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In the podcast.
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Is there anybody specific you want me to interview?
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I'm looking to serve the community and see what you're interested in.
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Now, if you want to contact and you want to give some feedback, just go to new age, human.
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com you'll see the contact me button.
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Send me an email.
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Go straight to me.
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I read every email.
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Now, with that said, thank you for joining me today.
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Let's get to the show.
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All right, James Eshlemen thanks for coming on the show.
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How's it going man?
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It's going good, man.
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Thank you for having me.
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Yeah, man I'm, actually jealous if anybody's watching he's got this awesome picture behind him of uh, I think it's a native american with a mohawk and like some face makeup.
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Can you just I need to address That image does it have a background what's going on there?
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Yeah, well, there's a Native American fair that happens in Denver every year.
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And this father son duo do these incredible paintings and the father usually draws these like older, wiser men, that are very, you know, distinguished and, and the younger son paints these more colorful sort of younger identified individuals and.
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And I walked in and I, I really wanted to embody more of the warrior archetype.
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And, and so I felt this, you know, as I stared at this painting, this deep gaze from this painting, uh, of, of sort of the courage assurance and, you know, clarity that it takes to kind of be a man in, in, the world.
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And, uh, so it's a, serves as a source of inspiration for me.
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And you know, something that I, I try to embody every day.
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Yeah, you know what you bring up?
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An interesting perspective where You saw the image and it's like It's a warrior and you're like, that's, that's.
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Inspiring right and especially as a guy, you know, you I remember as a kid just thinking like I'm gonna be a badass You know, like I'm gonna learn all these martial arts, you know Like you just it's in your blood that you just want to be some like dominate It's it's it's I guess whether it be the testosterone or Or the cartoons, right?
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It's just like, it's, it's, it's that thing.
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And it's actually, you know what, you're inspiring me to get something like that for myself and to put it in front of my display here when I'm talking to people just to get myself into that mode, because I'm getting into that mode, looking at your, your painting there.
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And I, and I do appreciate that.
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That is part of what you're doing.
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You're, you're working with an interesting.
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twist of combining psychedelic experiences and masculinity.
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And I really want to dive into that because that is part of that, like that inner journey to self discovery and I'm pretty sure you can agree that masculinity is something that needs to be worked on in today's world.
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But I definitely, before we get into that, I want to get into your beginnings, what got you into what you're doing now as a transformational coach, you do, you're a psychedelic guy, you're doing a lot of cool stuff, but like, what got you into that?
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Cause I'm sure anybody who's listening wants to know, like, how did this happen?
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Mm.
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Well, I think like any journey, you know, there's like this long and winding path.
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And, uh, I was raised in sort of a traditional household and expected to fulfill roles and and I think the roles in which I was expected to play gave me some measure of, of groundedness in, in the world and, uh, gave me a path forward, you know?
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And, and that path was.
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really started off down the path of business.
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And and, and so I studied finance in college.
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Got into the finance world, uh, when I graduated and worked there for, for three years.
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And, and that, that path of fulfilling responsibility, you know, the responsibilities that family sort of projects on you, society projects on to you and you know, the requirement to earn and, Make money, make a living and, and raise a family and, and all of that, right?
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Really comes along with, uh, you know, what, what your vocation is in the world.
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And, uh, I, in my Y and D path, I, Just, you know, I was, I could feel myself feeling really unfulfilled in my job in, in finance.
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And, uh, one day just felt this compelling, you know, move almost like this outer body uh, experience where I just stood up from my desk one day, cause I, I couldn't take it anymore.
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I felt like I was selling my soul to the devil a little bit.
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And so I, I kind of quit my job right there on the spot and, uh, and then sat my first point medicine journey a few days later.
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And and that was to me, that was like the shedding of, of an identity or of a role, you know, that, that I was supposed to stay in business and supposed to be in finance.
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And that was where I was going to bring value to the world.
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and that was getting in the way of what I was actually supposed to be doing, which, you know, is, is to be in service to other people in a deeper, more meaningful way.
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but that only revealed itself over time.
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I had to really make that leap, you know, to, to break that identity apart, to make room for, uh, for this new one, which, which I, I had, again, no idea that, that that was what was emerging at the time.
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But, but that's sometimes what it takes is, is that leap of faith.
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You, you straight up quit your job and a few days later went on a psychedelic trip.
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That's what's like getting to me because for me, I'm like, did you have a game plan?
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Was it just like, did you just snap?
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I'm, I'm very curious.
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And then the other question I have is were you already planning on doing a psychedelic trip before you made that decision?
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Yeah, the, the trip was already on the schedule, but it, it, at the time I couldn't link the two, you know, I couldn't link the, the need or the, the, you know, me quitting my job to like, I'm stepping into this and I'm choosing a different identity.
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It was just like, I've had enough of this.
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I got to get the hell out of here.
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And I.
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Okay.
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Uh, it was January 31st, so 2017.
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So, I don't know what day that was specifically, but I do know the exact date.
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probably a Monday, yeah.
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I think, you know, it was very spur of the moment.
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Yeah.
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Well, yeah,
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I, when I quit that job, you know, I, I was like, I was just sitting there at my desk stewing for some reason.
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And, and then I just sort of left my body.
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I walked into my manager's office thinking I was going to give them a two weeks notice and they were like, okay, well, as security is going to escort you out of the building in five minutes, go get your things.
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And, and that was like, that was the assurance that I needed, that I was making the right decision.
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so leading up to that, this sounds like what you you were in finance, so I'm, guessing you had a a desk a cubicle And it's like that that box prison where you have like images of your family Uh, i'm just taking a guess anxiety stress All that i'm sure that was building up, right?
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Yeah.
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Anxiety, stress, depression.
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I had a really poor relationship with alcohol.
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You know, dealing with the, the discomfort of having to wear a mask every single day, you know, where I wasn't able to be my full true self.
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Everybody was wearing a mask in the office.
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yeah,
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Oh my god.
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yeah.
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I
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the professional mask.
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Yeah.
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I, you
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Was it like I'm thinking of a mask that you would wear with a suit and tie.
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Like, is it made out of like a Is it, was it a designer mask?
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Like,
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know, the, it was hard to connect to anything that was really, truly authentic and individuals,
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yeah, you can't see their, their mouths and it's just the eyes at that point.
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right.
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And, and there's people who are trying to build their career.
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And so they're presenting certain aspects of themselves, whether it's the outer wanting to project the outer success onto the world, wanting to project the the power dynamics onto the world.
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And and I, I'm a pretty authentic guy.
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And so my authenticity craves authenticity and other people.
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And, and I can feel the disconnect when people aren't being authentic with me.
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And, uh, and so it, it just, it created this rift between me and the people that I worked with that, that, you know, it, it, It was depleting to have to, you know, balance this desire for an authentic human connection in that world with the with what was actually being presented and what was being withheld.
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Uh, so that was just kind of a facet or a piece of it, right.
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Of recognizing that I wasn't in authentic relationship with my life and the world around me in that space.
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And so that was sort of the thing that popped me up out of my seat, I think, in hindsight and.
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said like, well, if it's not here, then it's got to be somewhere else.
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I don't know where it is, but I'm going to go and find it.
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So then I sat my first, you know, plant medicine journey about four or five days later and sat pretty regularly with, with ayahuasca and doing my own personal healing work.
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And, uh, I had a lot of work to do at that particular point in time in my life.
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There was again, just the depression, anxiety.
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The, the alcohol, I wouldn't call alcoholism, but the, the poor relationship with alcohol and, and all of that was sort of the the surface level tension that was, you know, a symptom of the deeper tension that I, I didn't really have a, uh, a more, you know, authentic, or I should say deeper relationship with, with my purpose in life.
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And so with plant medicine, it, it was the journey of, of.
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Peeling back the layers of conditioning that had been created over a life of trying to fulfill a role outside of myself rather than living, you know, an authentic life that, that was meaningful to me.
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So wait, so we're talking about these layers.
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And when I hear layers, I think of Shrek and you know, we're like onions, right?
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yeah.
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Would you say that your psychedelic experiences with I think you're, before we get into like what exactly you're, you're working with my, the question that popped up in my head was each time you went through an experience, was it like another layer type of situation?
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Like, how was that?
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And was it?
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easy in the beginning?
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Is there a recommendation as far as like how fast you should go?
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Because I'm sure people, we all have these layers of programs that we bought into and those attachments being to our ego and, and with what you are helping people with, you're really, it seems like you're helping them de layer.
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So is any, any, any advice on what worked for you in that de layering process?
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Hmm.
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Well, I, I would, you know, my journey is not a journey that most people go on.
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You know, my work was psychedelics.
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days was a, you know, I was, I was so hungry for the work.
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I was so hungry to peel back these layers.
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I had so many layers to peel back.
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And then I also had, you know, behind all of that too, was that this isn't what I was supposed to be doing for my vocation too, is guiding people through these experiences.
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So my commitment to this work in these medicines was was a commitment to understanding what it means and what it takes to hold space for people while they're going through experiences of their own.
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I was at once both doing my own personal work and then in the early days, unbeknownst to me, like learning more about the psychedelic realms and the realms of, you know, consciousness.
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That were helping to.
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landscape of how I would show up and serve other people, you know, in the future going forward.
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and, and so that it's, you know, what I experienced was, uh, you know, you kind of, uh, psychedelics open up the door, right?
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You still got to walk through the door and you still have to integrate the experience and make sense of it.
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But what I noticed about myself is that I, I was opening up.
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So many doors, you know, regularly and walking through them with, you know, a certain veracity that, uh, that I was, I was just so hungry for knowledge and so hungry for wisdom that, that I was gaining so much from these experiences, even though, you know, even though as frequently as I was doing them.
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And, and so, so it's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's, you know, you open up one door, you walk through it and then 10 more doors appear, you know, and so then you've got to walk through those 10 doors and then 10 more door doors appear to each one of those doors.
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And, and I just, I loved, you know, getting to to explore all those different parts of myself and what was what was teaching me so much about, about my own conditioning, my own experience as a human being and my relationship with the world around me.
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When, when you say opening up doors, are you saying, in my mind, I'm thinking you're opening up a door and it's like a scene and you're, you're seeing yourself in third person.
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What is, uh, opening up a door mean to you?
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I see them as doors of perception,
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Hmm.
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So,
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With each door that you open up, you see yourself in a different way.
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And there's this infinite way in which we can sort of view our human experience and, and to break free from the conditioning or the ego structures or the identities, we have to see ourselves from different perspectives and embrace, you know, this sort of multitude of perspectives that's unfolding at any particular point in time.
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You know, so so that's, that's kind of what it is, is just seeing yourself from, from a different lens.
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And and I had so many different threads of, uh, of self work that I had to do that, that these medicines, particularly ayahuasca really helped me understand a lot about myself.
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Psilocybin
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and, I think I'm saying it right, philocybin.
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Psilocybin, which one do you like more?
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What if you had to choose?
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Which one do you feel you've got the most out of?
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in my own personal experience, it would be ayahuasca.
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My relationship with that is very.
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natural and rich and robust.
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My spirit, my being works really well hand in hand with that medicine.
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and then from a servant, like being in service to other people, the way that I work, uh, works really well with psilocybin.
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And so in my Um, in my coaching sessions, I work, I work with that medicine and, and the structure of how I set up the containers that I offer to people, helps to bring out the best in that medicine for others.
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Okay, so let's get into your, uh, Your, your, your sessions, what you're working with.
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What are your thoughts on Or maybe I should present it in a different way.
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How do you see these experiences that you're helping people guide, helping guide people into?
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How do you see this helping with masculinity?
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Because my thought was Isn't ayahuasca like a feminine energy?
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That's like that earth energy.
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And so you're you're going to in my mind.
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Okay, this is me never having a trip.
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I'm thinking how would you go to a feminine energy to learn about how to be more masculine?
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How do you how do you get that done?
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Hmm.
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There's, I think, I mean, first and foremost, that Acknowledgement that these medicines are, are innately feminine is, is, uh, in my mind, fundamentally true.
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And, uh, in order to understand how they work with men, you sort of have to understand what ails men, right?
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And, uh, the way that traditional masculinity has been, uh, conditioned in the world is that we gain love by.
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playing roles and doing things for other people, right?
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And, uh, and sort of striving out there in the world, whether it's accomplishing, providing, protecting, there's this, always this outward energy that we have to be doing something in order to achieve, you know, You know, this capacity for love.
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And so what I see these medicines doing is breaking down this, uh, sort of, the silos that men put themselves in or men maybe naturally find themselves in, which is, uh, that we only get love through transaction.
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And so when people, when men work with medicine is the invitation to recognize the feminine nature.
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Whether that's feminine nature that's within or feminine nature that's without, out there in the world and, masculinity, you know, you know, kind of looking at men, you know, men as we have, we have masculine qualities and we all have feminine qualities as well.
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We are both, you know, providers and protectors and we also feel, you know, we, we feel emotions, um, whether people want to acknowledge it or not they're there.
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like hide them all the time, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Hide them all the time or, you know, just bypass them, steamroll them.
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Uh, it's happening.
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And, and so these medicines invite us to, you know, come into contact with our feminine nature.
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And it's not to say that, you know, we're overtly feminine, but when we allow ourselves to feel and embrace our sensitivity, rather than close ourselves off from our sensitivity, we can become more resourced because we're more connected to life around us, right?
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More able to sense maybe the women in our life, maybe more able to sense the life force energy that's around us if we're out in nature, right?
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Or resourcing love from our environment, being able to receive love, which is a big challenge for men.
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And, and so, uh, by resourcing or coming into contact with our femininity, our masculinity naturally feels more nourished.
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And, and that's where, you know, we are, when we are at our best as men is is when we're able to nourish ourselves, our own masculinity with our own inner femininity, right?
00:20:28.919 --> 00:20:36.169
Without depending upon a feminine being in our life, you know, to provide us with what we're not giving ourselves.
00:20:36.618 --> 00:20:48.788
And, uh, and so, So that invitation is, is really important for us to do that healing work, you know, for us to feel our pain, for us to feel our anger, you know, for us to feel our sensitivity.
00:20:49.169 --> 00:20:55.449
And, and as we do, we come into contact with our, our deeper authenticity, right?
00:20:55.749 --> 00:21:03.449
What moves us emotionally in the world is oftentimes presenting the roadmap for what we're supposed to do in the world.
00:21:03.449 --> 00:21:32.278
And like from a role perspective, but From like, you know, a purpose perspective that, that we're all given these missions in life and, and, and our emotional experience, you know, not to say that we're meant to become overwhelmed by or lost in the swamp of emotions, but that, but that those emotions are actually the building blocks of of of helping us finding the thing that we're supposed to do in the world.
00:21:32.894 --> 00:21:36.433
So it sounds like it's almost And I should have asked this earlier.
00:21:37.953 --> 00:21:39.253
I'm guessing this happened to you.
00:21:40.634 --> 00:21:41.743
This is helping.
00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:46.449
men release those emotional blockages.
00:21:46.709 --> 00:21:56.828
And yes, it's a feminine energy, but it's also giving you a different perspective of your feminine side being okay with it.
00:21:56.898 --> 00:22:05.669
And, and, and now that you're okay with it, it's more imbalanced so that you can start embracing the masculine side.
00:22:05.669 --> 00:22:23.058
Because I feel that, uh, uh, uh, Growing up, I would say most of the childhood was more like, uh, it was just me and my mom, even though she remarried, it was, uh, she had more of an influence.
00:22:23.439 --> 00:22:29.818
And so I, as a guy felt, uh, what do you call it?
00:22:29.858 --> 00:22:34.689
Contradiction in energies where the feminine energy that she's very feminine.
00:22:35.108 --> 00:22:38.778
And so I felt bad for wanting to be a guy.
00:22:40.288 --> 00:22:42.669
And then her saying, don't do this, don't do that.
00:22:43.068 --> 00:22:47.838
And trying to figure out the balance between the two.
00:22:47.838 --> 00:22:52.148
So I can appreciate that where you're, you're, you're just resetting.
00:22:52.409 --> 00:22:52.798
Right.
00:22:53.169 --> 00:22:58.278
And then you're accepting of who you are, what you, what you're interested in.
00:22:58.538 --> 00:23:02.558
And at the same time, like, it seems like, yeah, there's a lot of energy balancing going on.
00:23:02.878 --> 00:23:07.118
But what I didn't ask and I, I want to ask now is.
00:23:07.778 --> 00:23:09.298
You were going through some anxiety.
00:23:09.308 --> 00:23:23.838
You got up and you left your job and you're like this it I'm done I'm gonna get escorted out It went from two weeks to today right leaving could have been on a Monday How did that?
00:23:24.159 --> 00:23:32.659
Ayahuasca journey that you did help you and How quickly did it help maybe with what you were dealing with at that time?
00:23:32.659 --> 00:23:33.249
I'm curious.
00:23:33.753 --> 00:23:33.763
Hmm.
00:23:34.199 --> 00:23:42.019
You know, the first experience that I had was it was my first experience with psychedelics.
00:23:42.288 --> 00:23:50.009
And so, uh, before that, I was very identified with my experience.
00:23:50.058 --> 00:23:59.598
Identified with you know, my, my belief systems, my, My identities, like I was sort of rigid and inflexible.
00:24:00.239 --> 00:24:09.088
And I think what that first experience did was allowed me to zoom out and see myself from a higher, you know, lens, a different perspective.
00:24:09.592 --> 00:24:17.162
and in that just, it sort of created space for me to play a little bit more with who I actually wanted to be.
00:24:17.906 --> 00:24:24.666
And then, you know, I've been doing this work a long time and I've done a lot of journeys, so a lot of them sort of bleed together, in a way, right?
00:24:25.116 --> 00:24:38.237
But, but the common thread In the experiences, was that it essentially created a, a deeper relationship with you know, uh, source energy, God, the divine, right.
00:24:38.396 --> 00:24:53.567
it gave me a measure of faith and trust and belief that I was being directed in life from something that was outside of myself and And I think that gave me more opportunity to just be more creative with who I am and who I want to be in the world.
00:24:55.686 --> 00:25:05.696
What, uh, what really actually inspired me rather than, you know, what what I was supposed to be doing in the world because of what I was told I was supposed to be doing in the world.
00:25:06.237 --> 00:25:06.636
Right.
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:16.529
so that's kind of, you know, the thematic for me is, is breaking free from all of these imposed, uh, uh, roles.
00:25:17.105 --> 00:25:28.029
hmm Yeah, because you were in a place from what I understand, you were in a place where you were just not not congruent with who you are and you in breaking free.