The Hammer Man Strikes: Harvey Carignan's Brutal Legacy

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They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair made up of a composite of several

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different individuals, which is super gross. The maps had several locations circled through

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out multiple states. One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington,

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while yet another circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead, also in

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Washington state.

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Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlyn. Hi, creepy people. Oh, hello. Hello. If you're new to our creepy

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corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal,

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all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode

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for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Hmm, sister groan if you're into that. Yes, please.

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Yes. This is I'm guessing going to be a very long episode because I have like 90 million pages

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of notes. So, pretty sure you said that on your last episode. Yeah, no, it was kind of a long episode.

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Are you calling me a liar? No, I'm just saying. Why do you got to keep doing this to us? I don't know,

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and it could have been so much worse because I was researching something else in the last couple of days.

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And even though I had a couple of things that were closer to completion, I thought, no, no, no.

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Let's start from scratch. And it turned out that was a big, ball of yarn. I wasn't ready to unravel all

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that. Oh, yeah. So, there we are. This was a case that was like, comparatively about, you know, the 80,

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90% done. So we're wrapping her up. I was wanting to switch up the order. And I like to kind of

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try to do different types of cases and just, you know, give people a little variety. This is

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different than the last one that I did. And it is, um, while I get, I'll just tell you, shall I?

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Is it still sad? No, this one's so happy at the very end. Okay. So wait for it.

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Wait for it. Wait for it. Okay. Harvey Louis Carignan was born May 18th, 1927 in Fargo, North Dakota.

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Oh, yeah.

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Beyond that, we're not going to dwell on his seemingly awful childhood much because to be frank,

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including a bunch of his biographical data, really eats into our time. And it's

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feist to say that's already so much to cover. There's so much to cover in this case.

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I want to know more about Fargo. No, I don't think you do. I, well, it gets a little like Fargo's

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movie. He's recounted bullying, physical and sexual abuse that occurred throughout his childhood.

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And while it might inform us about his psyche, it obviously isn't going to excuse a single one of

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the absolutely horrendous crimes that he committed throughout his life.

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Harvey has been known as the Hammerman, the Hitcher, and the Want Add Killer at various times.

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I don't want the Hammerman. It is not Hammertime. No, it is in fact never Hammertime.

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But all of these aliases or monocurs have one thing in common. They denote an evil,

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misogynistic and particularly sadistic serial killer. We're not going chronological to start with.

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So hopefully everybody can get on board with moving around a little bit. Where's that white board?

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I know. We need a white board. In fact, we're going to start around the time that he

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should have probably been buying a sports car or whatever else men do when they're having a midlife

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crisis, like having a fair or dating ridiculously young women, I guess.

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Dying their mustaches. Yes, exactly. Yeah, see, she gets it.

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I'm basing that on my extensive romcom research, of course.

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Everything that would piss katherine heigl off essentially.

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Never do that. Never do that. Anyway, we're starting off at a period of time when Harvey was already in

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his mid 40s. Rather than the gross aforementioned things that he could have done at the time,

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he was committing a heinous crime. One of many that he is known to or suspected to have committed

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for which he would never receive a conviction. Oh, great. Yeah, so

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cheerful. In Seattle on Wednesday, May 2nd of 1973, single mother Mrs. Miller was concerned about

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her only child as the evening hours unfurled. Kathy was 15 years old about to turn 16 in less than a month.

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She had a boyfriend and they had the most wholesome relationship.

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She was a good girl who had rarely, if ever, given her mother cause for concern.

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By 7pm, Kathy's mother began calling around to her friends to try to locate her daughter.

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The mother and daughter had a rare disagreement recently as Kathy had wanted to take on a summer job.

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She found an ad looking for a gas station attendant, which is not a job that I would

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feel comfortable taking myself as an adult woman or certainly would not want my teenage daughter to

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have. Yeah. When Kathy called about the position, the man stated that he needed to fill the position.

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ASAP. Hmm. Her mother wouldn't be able to make arrangements to take her to meet the man and person

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at the gas station for an interview and to fill out all the necessary paperwork right then and there.

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Cause that's kind of a lot. Yeah. The man offered to pick her up at an intersection nearby her

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home after school. But of course, Kathy's mother said, oh, he'll know. That's weird. Yeah, that is weird.

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At the thought of their squabble, she began searching for the ad and quickly located it.

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She called the number listed for the gas station and inquired whether Kathy had in fact done this despite

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her disapproval. Uh oh. Oh. The man stated that he had driven to the agreed upon spot, but the

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Kathy never showed. So he took off after a few minutes. Totally a believable story. Like what?

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When her mother speaks to Kathy's boyfriend, he is apprehensive as he knows that she wasn't supposed

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to take the appointment, but admits that he did wait with Kathy for the man to show up. Oh no. Yep.

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He had a paper route and after waiting a while for the pickup, he had to take off to begin his afternoon

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route, which I don't feel like you hear very much about people having an afternoon paper route.

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Yeah, it's kind of weird. Is that a morning thing? Yeah, what kind of afternoon papers? Yeah, it's weird.

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I don't know. That just struck me as like, oh, but obviously it's true and there's so whole

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sum. He's not lying about his paper route, but he told Kathy she should go back home. He's like,

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I don't think this guy's showing up. But of course, when he left, she was still standing there waiting

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in hopes that the man would show up. Obviously, he's also now incredibly concerned about Kathy not having

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returned home yet. Yeah. So Kathy's mom calls Seattle PD to report her daughter missing.

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It wasn't well documented what action might have been taken in regards to the reported

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disappearance that evening, but they did at least accept the report. Well, it's good. Yeah,

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that is something. Did they say that she just ran away? I don't think that, you know,

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interestingly enough, this is one of those cases where we're, I don't think we're going to get that

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line classic, though it may be the next morning, the case is handed off to detectives, Dwayne

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Holman and William Bowman. They follow up with Mrs Miller because their concern, the situation

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seems suspicious as well, which I think probably had a lot to do with the details of like where she was

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more than likely going. The boyfriend confirmed. And obviously, she hasn't come home overnight.

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So that's more concerning. They go out to the gas station to interview the man

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and are greeted by a man who is six two around 200 pounds. And his name is Harvey Louis Carignan.

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He's the owner of the business. And it's a very successful local gas station. He employs a number

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of teenagers in the area, which like, it was the 70s, but how are so many people like, okay,

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with their kids like working at gas station shops? You know, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I can't,

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I don't know. It was a simpler time. Yeah. It's a very successful gas station, though. Like I said,

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Ann Bruehl, a famous true crime writer, ever heard of her maybe once. Yeah. She described Harvey as

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a huge man with hands like, "Hams." Hands like, "Hams?" Hands like, "Hams." Like, "Hams."

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And a ham like a honey-baked ham. Ham hands. A brow that resembled that of a latter day,

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crow magnum man. I don't know about this. I will show you some pictures later. And, you know,

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stunningly accurate in at least one respect for sure. So hopefully that paints a little bit of a

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picture for you. You're welcome. Ham hands for sure. Ham hands. Yeah. Very descriptive. Yeah. Very big

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hands. Basically like my arch nemesis when it comes to hands. I think it's a meaty mitts on them.

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Yeah, meaty mitts, a way like that. He tells officers that he had wanted to hire a teenage boy,

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but he'd been open to interviewing and hiring Kathy. He reiterated the same story that he told Kathy's

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mother. The man seems very obviously anxious in officer's presence. Aside from a stress sweat,

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he also appears agitated by some of their questions. There were no witnesses stating that they saw

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Kathy with this man. So there's nothing beyond their previously made plans to tie him to her

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disappearance specifically. So not a lot to go on, but they're like, "Maspidy senses." You know? Yeah.

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And a review of his criminal history does not take away from their suspicion.

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He had a record dating back to the late 1940s when he was in his early 20s when he was enlisted in

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the army. He was stationed at Fort Richardson in Anchorage, Alaska during this time.

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On July 31st, 1949, a woman named Laura Schowalter, who was in her late 50s, was walking home from

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the theater. Sadly, she never made it. Hopefully that was a really good movie that she saw that night.

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I hope so. When her body was discovered, it appeared that she had died as a result of several blows to

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her head. There was an eyewitness who'd stated he'd seen her in the very same spot where her body was

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discovered the next morning. Only that evening, she hadn't been alone. He said there was a man with

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her and they appeared to have been romantically or physically engaged. Oh. He didn't think much more

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of it just assuming that the pair had been on the date. Yeah. I heard some different accounts that

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indicated that maybe he shouted at the guy like, "Hey, you know, get a room." But it doesn't

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appear that he intervened in any significant way. And how would you know? Yeah. Exactly.

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The witness was able to provide a general description of the man. So authorities now knew that he was a

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white man over six feet tall. Apparently that height would have been more remarkable back in the 70s.

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Like people are taller nowadays and they went back then, I guess. He was a soldier likely in his early

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20s with mutton chops. So he's got meaty mits and mutton chops. Nice. Yeah. The eyewitness was later able to

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identify the man in a lineup. Harvey Louis Carignan. Oh. However, beyond that, they didn't have much to

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be able to tie him to that crime. So I think it's not nothing, right? They did see this man with the

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woman who is now super not alive. In the same place. Yes. That's pretty good. I feel like that's

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significant. It's pretty circumstantial, maybe overall, but come on. Come on. Come on.

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Then on September 16, 1949, there was the attempted sexual assault of a woman who is referred to

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alternately in source material as either Dorcas Callan or Christine Norton. This is where it got

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really weird. I wasn't able to determine why, but newspapers dating back to that time versus more

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modern source material gave different names. It's possible that the victim had wished to remain

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anonymous and so an alias was adopted. In any case, this time the victim was able to escape her

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attacker and she went to the police to report the assault. She told them that she was attacked by

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a drunken sailor. When she rejected the soldiers off-putting advances, that's when the encounter

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becomes a violent attack. This second victim was able to identify him in a lineup in addition to

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the witness that placed Harvey with Laura at the scene of that crime, strengthening the case

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against Harvey. Wow. Yes. Now we have a surviving witness who was herself attacked.

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By December 1949, he was found guilty of the murder of his first victim, Laura Showalter,

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and was sentenced to death by hanging. Jesus Christ. Alaska did not fuck around. They did not suffer

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fools. I guess they didn't realize that that was still a thing. Yeah. That's, you know, my

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handful of years after World War II. Yeah. I just think of it like, you know, way back in the

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pilgrim days, you know, the 1800s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Oh. Yeah.

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An announcement was made that he was to be executed on the morning of March 3rd, 1950. Spoiler alert.

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He was not obviously. We've already talked about one crime. He committed well over two decades later.

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Just in case that got lost for anyone. Maybe he's Jesus. We came back to that. Yeah. We don't have

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the whiteboard. I'm just trying to help the date, time, and location of his scheduled execution were

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all provided to the public, which I have some feelings and thoughts about, but we're not really here for

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that. Still like public like out in the town square. I think a lot of executions were still done

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publicly. I think in many cases, we didn't see that really fully go away until like, let's just say

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this, our parents were alive. Prior to sentencing, his defense council had requested a new trial. Of course,

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this request was denied by the judge who in turn sentenced him to death. His defense had cited

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11 different grounds for the request, including that he had been promised that he would not be put to

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death if he provided a confession. In 1951, he was granted a new trial on the grounds of his confession

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having been improperly obtained. Because they were like, no, no, no, we don't kill people that

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confess and then they were like, just kidding, switch a rule. Can't do that, man. No, you surely can't.

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Don't call me surely. The Supreme Court overturned his death sentence due to a violation of the

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McNabb rule, resulting in a sentence of 15 years from death to 15 years. 15 years. But then they did do

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something that felt like kind of on the level of harshness of death. He was then transferred to

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Alcatraz in 1952. Oh, yeah. That's funny. I just took the book down and replaced it with another book.

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That's right. Gosh, I noticed that and I was like, she's going to need a book. I'll put it back up.

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I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. From there, he would be paroled in 1960, after serving less than a decade

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of his 15 year sentence. Wow. Just about half of it. I don't know how you go from death to that.

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I just- Death to 15 years and then maybe you serve like eight. Why? Where did the death thing go?

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I mean, the death thing when they took that off the table because they did come about that sentence

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and the confession in a not super legal and ethical way. But I mean, I get that. But like, what happened

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to life? Yeah. I mean, it went from the death sentence to 15 years then to okay, just kidding,

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you can go now after that. Yeah. You were just about to kill this dude forever and ever and ever,

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but then you let him out in eight years. Death is forever. I don't. Yeah. I don't. I'm not a fan.

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Following his parole, he moved to Minnesota. Minnesota. It's several years later before Harvey

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is entangled in the legal system again. Like not that many. You know? Actually, like not

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anymore years. It's literally in 1960. Kind of like they should have kept him in prison. Yeah.

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Yeah. No. I mean, he immediately turns around and was like, "JK, guys, I'm back." On August 5th,

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1960, he was arrested for burglary, assault, and attempt rape. But this time, he's in his early 30s.

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So, you know, now we're going chronologically. Okay. From here forward, mostly, I think.

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He was convicted of the charges and through some sort of sorcery, I assume of the Black Magic

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Variety. He was sentenced to just two and a half years. Did they know that he was in jail before

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and like was about to be hung for murder? I don't think so. I think that was part of the point of

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moving across the country. They just, at that point in history, because jurisdictions didn't really

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have like shared records. They don't... There's no like database, you know what I mean? Google it.

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Yeah. Well, they weren't real big on Google in Back then Man. Yeah. So, also two and a half years,

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again, bringing your attention to the Black Magic. That is, burglary, assault, and attempted rape and

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only being sentenced to two and a half years. I don't follow. Yeah. He would serve two thousand

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86 days in federal prison in Levenworth, Kansas, which Levenworth, I think, is you like, you probably

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don't really want to hang out there. But... He's been some places, man. Sure has. This man is seeing

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the world, mostly just here in the States and mostly prisons. Prison's of the world.

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United States. When he was again paroled because, of course, he was, he then moved to Seattle. Great.

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Predictively, Harvey had hardly changed his ways. Made clear when he was sentenced to 15 years

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at the Walla Walla prison in Washington State, or second degree burglary. Wow. 15 years from...

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They got there. They got their sentencing. Oh, crazy. It is all over the board. We need the white board

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because it's all over the board. While incarcerated, he earned his GED and even took some college courses.

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Cassie, would you care to learn more about what he was learning? I mean, do I have to? Well, his course

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is included criminal psychology. Of course they did. Because of course. He was released on parole in

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1968 after serving about four years. Of the 15? Of the 15. Yep. From there, he met Sheila Moran.

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Quickly moving in with her and her daughter prior to the pair tying the knot.

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Oh. Though the marriage did not last, after he was jailed again in 1969 for another parole violation,

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Sheila divorced him. The filing cited physical abuse by her husband.

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Thank goodness, Sheila. Is anyone surprised by this?

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You have no idea. Thank goodness, Sheila. Okay. I'm going to tell you. This is not something that I

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understand to have been included in the divorce filing. It was a little unclear to me as to when

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exactly this story was shared and recorded for all of our posterity. But at one point in the

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marriage, he'd reportedly stated that he heard the voice of God telling him to attack Sheila with a

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hammer. Dude, he'd intended to kill her because that's what happens when you attack someone with a

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hammer. But the plan was thwarted when Harvey had a startling realization. He's crazy? Oh no, he's

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never going to come around to that one. No. In the very moment that he was poised to attack,

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it was actually his stepdaughter. He had apparently been silently surveilling from downstairs in the

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basement, clutching his hammer in his ham hands. God hadn't intended for him to kill her.

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So thankfully, at least this one awful plan was abandoned. Okay. So freaking bizarre and alarming.

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So he said that he was like about ready to go up the basement stairs presumably and attack who he

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assumed was his wife. But he realized all of a sudden he's like those footsteps sound really light.

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Oh my god. And he was like, because they're a child. Wow. Well, fuck, I'm glad he didn't decide to kill

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both of them. Yeah, I don't think the mom was actually even there. I think he thought it was his

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wife coming home, but it just was the stepdaughter. So lucky, lucky girl that day. Wow, wow, I'm going to

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say in that he didn't like try to do it when the mom got home later. You know, like it, what made him

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just completely stop. Yeah. I. There are a few situations where there's really not a lot of rhyme or

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reason. It just, I don't know. I'm the meme. Yeah. Of course, Harvey was not the type to be held down

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by time in the pen or failed relationships. Shortly after his release following the parole violation

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as the 1960s came to an end, he met and married another woman.

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Her name was Alice Johnson and she had two children, a boy and a girl ages 11 and 14 respectively.

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Oh, I'm worried about them all. Yep. In the early 70s, it seems like he kept a slightly lower criminal

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profile for a second. His main vice appeared to be speeding, but appearances aren't everything, of course.

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In October of 1972, Laura Leslie Brock of Bellingham went missing. When she was later discovered,

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she was completely nude with the exception of Navy socks in the Oak Harbor area.

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Her cause of death was declared as multiple blows to her head. No, no one does.

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Laura had been a sophomore at Western Washington State College. She had been raped and had been

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beaten and bludgeoned with an unidentified object. At the boarding house where she was living,

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she'd left a note stating that she planned to visit the beach. Her grandmother confirmed that

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it was Laura's intention to hitchhike despite her cautioning against it. She was traveling from

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Bellingham to the Olympic Peninsula. Harvey has never been charged in connection with Laura's

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murder. In fact, no one ever has. But he received a speeding ticket in the area during the period of

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time that she went missing. Oh my god. It's just like a casual two murders now that he's not officially

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been charged with. Just just just just the two. But he was right there in the area. Yeah, just hanging

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out doing ham-hand stuff. Oh god. Yeah, and then there was the fact that there was a witness that

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stated they saw her get into a vehicle matching the description of Harvey's very unique camper truck,

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which we will come back to because it is so unique. So what's the problem? That's like he was there

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some time. Where's the lineup? I mean, put that bitch in another lineup. All that means is that she got

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into his truck though. In theory, I mean, again, you got to have some sort of evidence tying him

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not just to the victim, but to the crime itself. Did they search the truck? They're going to conduct

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a search of his truck. Not right now. Not right now, but they will. It will happen.

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At some point, after it's been cleaned. Oh, well, he does get a cleaned more than once. For sure. Yes, yes.

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We've got something we're really excited to share with you guys. Let's hear a few words from our new pod

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besties. Can you hear me? Good to have you back with us. I hope you don't mind that I am recording

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for investigative notes. It's a wax cylinder. The only thing we found that can pick up the voices of

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people in your condition. My name is Owen von Sid. I am a reclamer. Do you know what that means? No?

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Well, I am sorry to inform you that you didn't make it. Please try to remain calm. The worst is over.

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Nothing can hurt you, not ever again. But the thing that did this to you, it is still out there.

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That is what we do. I wake unfortunate souls, such as yourself. Hear their stories. Then my associates

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and I see to it that whoever or whatever did this to you is dealt with. Now, let's begin. When you are

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00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:49,160
ready. Tell me, how did you die? Ghost Wax is an anthology horror podcast from far and tall

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00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,480
tales productions. New episodes releasing weekly. Look for us wherever you get your podcasts.

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00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:02,040
Check them out, creepy people. You can find their info in our show notes.

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00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:13,160
Now, we are right back to where we started with Kathy. It was May of 1973 when Kathy went missing.

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So, just to kind of wrap this up with a little low here. October 72, that's when Laura

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goes missing and then her body is discovered. And then May of 1973 is when Kathy went missing.

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After a super-legit job interview and that's all there is to it.

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I don't believe you. Yeah, I wouldn't either.

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Police informed Kathy's mother about the status of the investigation and their suspicions about

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the man who reportedly may have been the last person to see her daughter alive. Unfortunately,

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at this point, they don't have enough to arrest him. Really, they don't even have enough for a

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search warrant at this point. Somehow? Because no one like saw him actually with her or did they?

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No, nobody did really. Not at that point. She then received a call from a man who said he discovered

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some schoolbooks in the parking lot of a business complex. He discovered that there was a name

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and phone number inside. He was attempting to return the books to the proper owner. So awesome.

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So cute. When the books were turned over to the police, they attempted to lift fingerprints from

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them to try to drum up any possible new clues. Sadly, Kathy's body was discovered by two boys on a hike

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in the Tulalip reservation north of Everett, Washington. She had been wrapped in viscuine plastic.

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What is that? Just like plastic wrap. It's kind of heavier duty. A lot of times people will put it down

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when they're doing various like home improvement projects. Okay. She'd been beaten with a heavy object,

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leaving large holes in her skull. Some of them were roughly nickel sized, which is that's a lot of force.

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Yeah. But that horrific discovery wasn't the only development in the case. A friend or acquaintance

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of Harvey's reached out to law enforcement to inform them that he had given some viscuine to Harvey.

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They asked for any of the role that he still had in his possession to try to match the cut edges of

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that sample to the piece that was wrapped around Kathy's body. A little bit of a reach probably,

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but like, hey, that's like smart. Yeah, like I'll take what I can get.

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Following this discovery, despite there not being an obvious match, they are able to obtain a search warrant.

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Reportedly, witnesses saw a truck driving onto the reservation near the area where the body was discovered

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and specifically on the date Kathy went missing. Also way more specifically, the vehicle was

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described as a Chevrolet camper truck. It was yellow with black stripes and a silver canopy.

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What's with the black and yellow like a DB-tuber? Wasn't his a raft? Oh yeah.

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Black and yellow too. Yeah, it was. What's with these like bright, obvious look at me.

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It's not great. It's not great because it's really attention-getting. This was also, I know you'll

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be surprised to hear this, but it was a perfect match for Harvey's vehicle, but none of the witnesses

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were able to specifically identify the driver. So I guess our working theory is that now Harvey's

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very, very unique vehicle could have been stolen and driven by someone else. Totally. Did he

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report at missing or stolen? No, I don't think so. I feel like he might miss that if it were gone.

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I would think so. Yeah, where's my bumblebee? Kathy had never been fingerprinted. Unidentified

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prints were found inside his vehicle because you know they did go ahead and give it a little

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just a little looky-loo, but unfortunately they had no way to compare them to who they thought.

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So no fingerprints from Kathy. There are fingerprints in the truck, but they cannot match.

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Why don't they have Kathy's fingerprints? She just was never fingerprinted. Why? I don't know.

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I don't know. And I think the condition of her body sadly did not make taking her fingerprints

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after her body was recovered possible. That makes sense. So thankfully, a comparison of

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dental records proved successful and they had a match. So they were like, yeah, this is super

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duper Kathy. They just couldn't match the prints that were in the truck too Kathy. So that wasn't

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super helpful. Could they not like go to her room and take fingerprints? I mean, I guess they could have

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tried that. Come on, let's go back in time. Let's try to rework this. Yeah. Yeah, that would be so cool.

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From that point on, whenever possible, they surveilled Harvey, hoping that he might return to the

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scene where her body had been discovered, which is not a bad theory because that's a thing that

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does happen frequently in these cases, but he might know that because he studied criminal psychology.

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So of course, he wouldn't go back. I mean, or yeah, he didn't that we know of, but it's possible.

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I don't know. I don't know his life beyond these nine plus pages. Harvey's family meanwhile is being

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interviewed by law enforcement in the months that followed. His stepson went to live with his father

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reportedly due to physical abuse by Harvey. The stepdaughter didn't seem to like or feel comfortable with

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him. Weird. There may have been some accusations at one point or another about some sort of inappropriate

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behavior, but that was a bit murky. But she was still living with her mother and Harvey in their home

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while he's being investigated. But remember, she's about the same age as Kathy was at the time of her

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disappearance and murder. So that is so creepy. It was June of 1973 when Mary Townsend was attacked

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while waiting at a bus stop. She had been knocked unconscious, but awoke in a strange man's vehicle.

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He tried to sexually assault her, but she left from a moving vehicle to escape him. Yeah.

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Bold moves. Like not that I want you to have to do that. No, God damn you. Do anything to get out of

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that situation. Holy shit. When you're between a rock and a hard place, jump out of the car.

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And you're like, when the car came into this, she had been a runaway at the time of her attack. And

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that's likely the reason, at least in part why she didn't report it. Despite that fact, this attack

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has also been linked to Harvey. As for his wife Alice, she was apparently trying to leave him around

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this same time, because she's like, this situation is looking tenuous at best.

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Get out. She was not wrong. Yeah. When she filed assault charges in July of 1973, it did allow

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police to pick him up, even if it wouldn't allow them to hold him for long. In September of 1973,

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he picked up 13-year-old hitchhiker Jerry Billings. He forced her to perform sexual acts on him,

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while he assaulted her with a hammer. Surprisingly, Harvey released this traumatized child.

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She had survived, but would not speak of the horrifying incident until many months later.

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God, she's 13. Yeah. And sometimes that's how trauma works. People don't always

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immediately flee the scene and go to the police, though that is a very good instinct. But sometimes,

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I mean, God damn, that is what trauma can do. And she's not the first or the only. So...

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And you said she was a runaway or was that from... That was the previous. Yeah. They're so nasty.

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I know. And it's gonna get so much worse. By mid 1974, Harvey had given up on the idea of reconciling

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with his wife Alice and had begun dating another woman, Elaine Hunley. Elaine, no, yeah. And honestly,

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how these two struck up a relationship is puzzling. Okay, this is so weird. Their meet cute came about

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when he found her on the side of the road after her car had broken down. So I'm sorry. How does she end

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up being someone he carries on a relationship with and doesn't murder? Yeah. Because that seems

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to be his thing like by the people on the road. Very strange. But the pair ended up

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shacked up in Minnesota. Again, Minnesota. Yeah, back to Minnesota. The law enforcement had been

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able to hold him at least temporarily due to other charges as they built a case against him.

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For Kathy Summiller's murder, they weren't able to prevent his relocation.

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Harvey had sold the gas station and moved as he'd made his way back to Minnesota,

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fleeing as he had become the number one person of interest in connection with Kathy's murder.

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He was said to have passed through California. On his way to Minnesota from Washington? Yeah.

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I'm glad you picked up on that because my next line is doesn't seem like that's the most direct route

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probably, but I'm not that great with geography, but I feel like Minnesota is not down there. Not in

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that direction. He's just taking the scenic ground. Notably during this period, the bodies of multiple

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young women were found in the area as he was passing through. Some of those cases remain unsolved

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because there were a lot of serial killers in the mid-70s in California, but he literally has

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speeding tickets in the area where some of these women were murdered and I'm just saying,

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maybe. Wow. Yeah. So why is speeding? What you trying to get away? Why? Why? Why you got

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joy so fast? Because you went the wrong way in Minnesota's in the other direction? Or because the

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the woman you just killed is in that direction. Maybe a little bit both. When Elaine inevitably broke

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up with him, because where he's a piece of shit, it didn't take long for her to suddenly disappear.

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No, Elaine. Yeah. She left him August 9th of 1974 and it thankfully didn't take long for those

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closest to her to report her missing. They're like, weird how she's not showing up to anything,

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including her job. I wonder if we should be concerned about that. And they were like, yeah,

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yeah, you know what? We took a vote and we decided, yes. Someone check on Elaine. Elaine. She okay.

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She is super done. Okay. Her body was discovered just over a month after her disappearance.

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Her death was clearly a homicide. The beating she endured leading to her school actually imploding.

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Horrifying. I had to read that several times over. I'm like, I'm sorry. Did you say implode? That is

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what? Every time you say something about the school, I just go back to the Lizzy Board and

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the pictures of the parents' goals and like, I, this is one of those cases where I'm like, your

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school's not supposed to do that. She was also raped with a foreign object, a tree branch. No,

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why? Which is like, okay, a stick is, that's, it's all bad. It's real bad. A tree, a branch.

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Men are so fucking gross. Well, this man certainly, I mean, come on, let's be honest. Nurse,

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he's not the only one, but I have no further. That's all I want to say.

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I hope he's getting sexually assaulted with a tree branch every single day in hell.

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It's funny you should say that because there is a very happy ending to this story that I feel like

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is sort of, it feels like poetic justice. It's not like a tree branch, but you might argue

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possibly even more horrific. So something to look forward to. Great. Yeah.

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What page are you on? Seven. Though each of his crimes have been incredibly brutal, it seems

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this marked a turning point or perhaps the better term might be escalation. That's what I was thinking.

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Yeah, carrying out such a horrific attack on his own partner rather than a stranger seemed to have

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Harvey, I would say fully unhinged because the following month he would perpetrate an astonishing

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number of attacks, those some ended in markedly different ways compared to Elaine.

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Remember before when you said there's just so many, it's happening so fast.

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Buckle up buttercup because holy shit, it is about to, it's fast and furious style. Like it's like

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the 11th one. I don't want to go fast. I don't know. If you ain't first, you're biased. I want to be

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last. In early September, two teenage girls named June and Lisa were offered $25 each by a man

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driving by to help him retrieve his son's vehicle from somewhere in the nearby area. Kind of vague and

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they were like, "Twenty-bottles." So they happily agreed. Do anything for $25?

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They're about to walk into a basement and like I'm screaming. I just threw popcorn everywhere.

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But honestly, you should be able to take $25 from someone asking you to help them. Like there shouldn't

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be anything wrong with that. But just to be clear, you're super-can't. Don't get in cars with strangers.

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The only safe way to do gig work is probably through something like fiber or task rabbit or something.

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You want your movements to be tracked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eventually, they realized that they appeared to

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be going quite a bit further out of the way than he had described. When questioned about this,

371
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:28,200
he reportedly asked the girls, "And nothing can prepare you for this question, especially when you are

372
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:37,960
traveling in a vehicle out of town with this man." He asked, "Would you rather be killed or would you

373
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:45,400
rather be raped?" That's not a fun game of "Would you rather?" No. That's you're doing it wrong.

374
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:51,880
Doing it so wrong. So wrong. You're supposed to ask, like, "Would you rather eat a booger or like

375
00:49:51,880 --> 00:50:03,960
swallow a bug?" Yeah. Suck down a fart. I don't know. Yeah. It's not weird. It's not. Not appropriate.

376
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:09,560
Well, they actually responded, which I wasn't expecting, but I feel like they just wanted to make

377
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:16,760
their wishes known, I guess. One of the girls replied on both of their behalf, which also kind of presumptuous,

378
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:23,320
okay? Stating that they would rather be killed and turns out her friend agreed, because she was like,

379
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:30,600
"Yeah, pretty much. Damn. Yeah." When he finally stopped the vehicle, his instructions were that one of

380
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:37,560
them was to stay in his truck while the other followed him to retrieve his son's vehicle. So he's

381
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:44,200
picking up the story about how we got them out there in the first place. I need help getting my

382
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:52,200
son's car. And they're like, "Okay, okay." Still though, like, what choice do you have? So one of the

383
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:59,720
girls accompanied him following him into the woods. And she happened to be the one that he attacked

384
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:08,200
with a hammer. But miraculously, somehow she does survive. In a shocking twist, he apparently

385
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:15,000
allows both girls to live and just drives away in his truck, which I feel like kind of

386
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:25,720
downplays the fact that he attacked her and like, he left them both essentially for dead.

387
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:36,200
So he did attack them both? Um, unclear. I'm given to understand that it was just one of them that he

388
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:46,360
physically attacked. Since fucking off all no matter what I had. Yeah. Yeah. Then something even

389
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:53,880
weirder happens over the next few days. Multiple different young women come forward to the authorities

390
00:51:53,880 --> 00:52:03,640
to describe a man and his vehicle that had attacked them. What? Who could be responsible for that?

391
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:10,120
Is it the same vehicle? Yeah, they're all describing the same dude and the same. Is it the same one he

392
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:15,800
had before the black and yellow camper thing? You know that? I think so. I don't think he even swapped

393
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:25,960
out the vehicle. Yeah, which is wild. Wild. This is like animal planet level. Wild. Actually,

394
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:35,320
the animals aren't even this wild. Is this a speculative documentary? This isn't real, right?

395
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:41,960
It's like the mermaid. It's not real. Oh, it's unfortunately very real. Yeah.

396
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:55,480
Okay. Then on September 14th, 1974, Gwen Burton is picked up from a Sears parking lot where she was

397
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:02,760
apparently having car trouble. The man had told her he could help fix the issue with her car and she

398
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:09,320
had agreed, accepting the offer to ride along with him to pick up his tools, which is like, why do I need

399
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:16,520
to go with you? Yeah. Can you help with my tools? Yeah. I mean, I guess back then, I think especially,

400
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,760
you're just like, oh, this person's going to help me. I'll just go along to keep him company. But

401
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,000
like he's a grown-ass man. He'll be all right. He was alone when you found him.

402
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:33,240
Anyways, not her fault just saying, don't do it. Right. She became suspicious after some time seeing

403
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:40,040
how far out of the way the man appeared to be taking her. She asked him to take her back to her

404
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:47,640
vehicle or even just to let her out where they were. However, he refused and of course then attacked her.

405
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:56,200
He began ripping at her clothing and choking her. He took her to a field where he then raped her

406
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:05,800
with a hammer before beating her with it. Following this brutal attack, he simply, he's like,

407
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:14,680
bad, deuces, he flees the scene. He just leaves. Unbeknownst to him, Gwen is still alive and struggles

408
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:28,280
a way to try to get help. She would later identify Harvey in a lineup. Yeah. However, the brutality continued

409
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:36,840
as Harvey picked up two additional young female hikers, Sally and Diane. The most wholesome names

410
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:47,160
and he forces them to do not necessarily super wholesome thing. He forced them to perform oral sex

411
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:52,360
under the threat of violence because they weren't going to do it because he was so good looking. Again.

412
00:54:52,360 --> 00:55:03,080
Cannot, cannot, cannot overstate that. They were eventually able to escape when Harvey later made a

413
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:13,400
stop for fuel. Cannot make this shit up. You might think that as more victims seem to be escaping his

414
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:21,960
oversized man hands that his reign of terror must be coming to an end. Well, not quite yet,

415
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:29,080
unfortunately, though law enforcement from more than one state was they were like, buddy, we're

416
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:37,400
onto you. And also don't call me buddy, pal, guy, friend. Harvey was still on his brutal bullshit.

417
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:47,560
So there's another disappearance in September of 1974. So like September, September, September,

418
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:55,960
so many horrible things. It's a rough time. You know, you think back to school is rough. That's when

419
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:04,280
Kathy Schultz went missing. Her brutally beaten body was discovered in a cornfield outside of

420
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:15,480
Minneapolis. Her school had imploded. Never gets easier to say that or this and she too was raped

421
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:25,480
by a foreign object. As if that wasn't bad enough, sadly, she had actually attended school with

422
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:35,560
two of his very recent prior victims, Sally and Diane. In his hasty attempt to distance himself from

423
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:42,760
this latest crime, he left tire imprints where he'd abandoned Kathy's body.

424
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:51,560
When law enforcement searched Harvey's vehicle in Minnesota, following the death of Elaine

425
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,360
Hunley, remembered this as his ex-girlfriend and he was like, if I can't have you, nobody will.

426
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:06,440
And she was like, oh no, I imagine. They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair

427
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:13,800
made up of a composite of several different individuals, which is super gross. He had a hair doll.

428
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,360
Not a hair doll. It was like just like a clump of hair. I don't think he was trying to make a doll.

429
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:24,200
You don't know. I don't know. I don't want to know. That's creepy. That's too much for me.

430
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:29,880
The maps had several locations circled throughout multiple states.

431
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:37,560
One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington while yet another

432
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:44,360
circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead also in Washington state.

433
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:52,360
Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock had gone missing within just a few months of each other.

434
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,560
And remember, he was a person of interest in Kathy's case before he fled to Minnesota.

435
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:05,080
Thankfully, multiple victims that had escaped his clutches were all able to identify him.

436
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:11,560
June, Lisa, Sally, and Diane all positively I did him as their attacker,

437
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:20,040
which is kind of a lot of witnesses. Yeah, it seems pretty damn solid. Yeah.

438
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:25,240
Maybe don't let him go this time. When he was charged in relation to these crimes,

439
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:30,920
that he was believed to have committed in Minnesota, Harvey hired an attorney.

440
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:38,680
He would go on to confess to multiple killings, though he claimed that God had instructed him to

441
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:47,160
do these things, which is, I don't know, man, like God's kind of all over the place in the stories I've

442
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,160
heard. Sometimes he's like, "Kill one of your kids!" And then sometimes he's like,

443
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:55,080
"You know, I'm trying to convince people not to cut babies in half."

444
00:58:55,080 --> 00:59:01,800
And it's really all over the board. Again, just another good reason for the white board situation.

445
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:12,040
But I didn't cross. So apparently we're going for the insanity defense. I mean, he seems like legit.

446
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:19,160
Something's going on in there. I mean, there's not right. Yeah. He was charged with attempted

447
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:27,000
murder and aggravated sodomy, which he would have to go to trial for prior to any additional

448
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:34,600
murder charges. Harvey was then sent to St. Peter's State Hospital for a pre-sentencing

449
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:41,320
psychiatric examination, where he was diagnosed with a severe anti-social personality disorder.

450
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:50,920
By mid-1975, things are kind of starting to fall in place in terms of the legal case against him.

451
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:57,960
Harvey was found guilty in connection to multiple charges filed against him for the attacks on

452
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:05,080
Jerry Billings and Gwen Burton. Because also, you know, some of them, they Gwen was like, "That's

453
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:14,840
super him!" Right there in the lineup, I see him. It was that guy. So he was sentenced to 30 years

454
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:21,560
for each, though he was only ordered to serve 40 of the 60 years that he was sentenced to in total.

455
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:28,760
Not really sure why, but it really doesn't matter. Because next, he was indicted on murder charges

456
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:38,920
in the cases of Catherine Schultz and Eileen Hunley. Harvey pled guilty to the second-degree

457
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:46,360
murder charge in the case of Catherine Schultz receiving a 40-year sentence. He was found guilty

458
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:55,240
of Eileen's murder as well, because duh. However, this first-degree charge carried a life sentence.

459
01:00:55,240 --> 01:01:02,920
There were Supreme Court shenanigans, but his conviction was appelled in 1978.

460
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:09,480
And the next couple of decades were relatively uneventful

461
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:18,840
until his prostate cancer diagnosis in the late 90s. I'm trying so hard not to smile with

462
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:24,280
Lee. Feels still somehow like maybe a little mean to...

463
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:30,360
Dorothy, the speeder. No!

464
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:42,760
Anywho, he died in "You're Not Even Gonna Believe This Cassie." I had to quadruple check this. He

465
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:54,920
died in March of 2023. Like? That's last year. A year and a half ago. Wow. At the ripe old age of 95,

466
01:01:54,920 --> 01:02:01,560
after serving nearly five decades behind bars for his crimes. Good. I mean, he made it for

467
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:07,480
last time. But like, that's also not to mention all the time that he served as a younger man.

468
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:16,200
But like, five, almost five-fold decades. For a handful of the crimes that like we know,

469
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:21,880
me like, dude, did it. They didn't get him on everything. There are two murders that...

470
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:29,960
It's like, we... Again, I think we know even if we don't like, know he did it. Yeah.

471
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:38,360
Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock. I mean, they were spotted in his vehicle or his vehicle

472
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:45,880
was spotted near where their bodies were fat. Listen, I don't like to say. And normally I would,

473
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:52,120
you know, allegedly, allegedly. You couldn't force me to give a single flying fuck.

474
01:02:52,120 --> 01:03:00,040
You can't sue us. He super did it. But just funny because, you know, not a tree branch, but

475
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:06,760
something did literally climb up his ass and kill him. Yeah. Well, but a cancer. Super awesome.

476
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:12,600
I don't know if it was actually the cancer that killed him. Most of what I could find out there

477
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:18,600
basically said he died of natural causes. I don't know what that is exactly. I don't know. He was

478
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:27,240
diagnosed with cancer in the late 90s. And then he lived for like 25 more years. So... Man, I hope

479
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:34,200
it was a really painful. Yeah. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Am I right? I hope we got no pain

480
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:41,640
meds. Yeah. I mean, I don't think they're big on rolling out narcotics to violent offenders, but

481
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:49,720
what do I know? Hashtag, not a doctor. Well, I wish they would have fucking just hung him in the

482
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:58,680
first place. I mean, just could have saved like potentially, you know, I don't so many lives.

483
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:04,440
So many lives. I have a trauma of so many young girls and women too. Even the survivors.

484
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:17,880
Like, rampage after. Yeah. Yeah. September was like a rough time. 1973. And then, let me say,

485
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:26,200
I think it yeah. And then 74 back to back like rough times. But September 74 is when it just

486
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:33,960
like dude, you got a calm down. I need you to take several seats. Do you think he just like knew he

487
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:39,320
was getting caught soon? Or maybe it was just his sickness was just getting worse. Yeah, I just feel like

488
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:46,440
it's it's so classic. We just see this with so many serial killers where, you know, they talk about

489
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:52,760
it in every, you know, true crime series or, you know, even fictional or not.

490
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:59,960
Everything that you watch about crime and they talk about how, you know, escalation. And it's like,

491
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:05,000
I feel like at some point they just sort of get to a stage where they either think they can't,

492
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:11,640
like they're invincible. They can't get caught. There's sort of the myth that they want to get caught,

493
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:17,160
but I think they just reach like a fever pitch. It just becomes a frenzy and they don't give a

494
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:24,360
shit what evidence they leave behind. They either think they can run forever or they just don't care.

495
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:30,520
Yeah. So I don't know. Please catch me. Don't. I'm gonna do my thing over here. I'm just over here

496
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:40,120
being a ham hand. Ham hand having son of a bitch me and my hammer for laughs. So all the ones where

497
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:47,080
you had said that they passed from like the blunt forest trauma. It was, do they think it was all a

498
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:55,720
hammer or different? There were in some of the cases, it was clear that like some sort of a weapon

499
01:05:55,720 --> 01:06:05,720
or object was used, but there was indeed, I think it was the first murder where it was alarming

500
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:13,000
because this woman was, I mean, completely unidentifiable. Like you could barely tell that she was human.

501
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:23,400
And the horrifying realization that they came to, and this was something that I didn't include,

502
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:31,960
but now that you're asking. Sorry. No, it's, they were a horrifying realization that came to them as,

503
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:39,000
you know, they were examining the body and everything. They realized, oh my god, we thought that this

504
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:47,240
woman was like beaten about the head with an object. And this was nope, just his ham hands,

505
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:55,560
he did this with his bare hands. That was, I believe, Laura Showalter, who was his first, at least,

506
01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:05,640
known victim when he was living in Alaska as an enlisted army man.

507
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:11,880
He did that with his hands, with his bare hands, with his ham,

508
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:18,360
hammy bare hands. Why was also thinking to a hammer isn't that big, you know?

509
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:25,960
And his hands are, so it's like, I don't know, it just seems so like super intimate too,

510
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:31,800
because it's not like something that you're swinging like it. Yeah, the object creates, like,

511
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:37,960
not just a physical, but sort of like a psychological distance between you and the crime that you're

512
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:46,600
committing, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. It's awful from every potential angle,

513
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:55,800
you know, from which you can examine it. So that's cool. There's a lot of other source material that I

514
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:01,960
looked at that talked about other cases, a little bit more in depth that he was potentially involved in.

515
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:09,400
There was a case that I couldn't find substantiated really in anything that I was finding in terms

516
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:16,120
of source material. I don't know if they changed the name of the woman that they were referring to,

517
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:24,760
but I came across a relatively, I think, reputable source where they were referring to a victim that I

518
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:30,680
was like, I can't find this person by name anywhere else. And it was really bizarre because I was like,

519
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:37,080
there's no, there's no other source material that seems to like have alternately named her like,

520
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:44,680
like we saw with Dorcas versus Christine, depending on, you know, the source material and at what

521
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:52,280
point in time you're reviewing. I don't know. I have no idea where that person came from. It all sounds

522
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:58,520
very much like Harvey and it sounds like it played a very pivotal role in his downfall that I couldn't

523
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:06,840
find any information about it. Oh, yeah. It was, I mean, there's just so many victims and there's

524
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:16,840
so many people that he suspected having to have either abducted, sexually assaulted, murdered. I

525
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:22,760
mean, and again, some of those are unsolved. It's like, okay, well, I don't know. Do we have anything

526
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:28,760
that we can like test? Do we, do we have anything that we could like, I don't know, run some DNA and

527
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:36,120
try to, I don't know, like crazy idea I had here, but what if we tried to solve it anyway?

528
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:42,840
I know, like just to just to know the things are solved. Yeah. I mean,

529
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:50,520
because here's a crazy thought, then it's like, we know that he did it and, you know, I feel like

530
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:58,680
probably somewhere out there, those people, you know, maybe they've remained unidentified

531
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:04,520
officially for all these years, but more than likely that person has family, right? And they

532
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:12,680
probably would like to know what happened. Maybe we do it, you know, for that. And maybe if it wasn't him,

533
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:18,040
I don't know, maybe then we keep looking. We just get wild and we figure out like, was it maybe

534
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:23,720
somebody else? Maybe they were younger than Harvey was at the time of the crime and maybe there's

535
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:29,400
somebody else who's still living freely that like totally got away with murder and everybody thinks

536
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:35,640
Harvey did it. I don't know, Tommy Crazy, I just think we should solve the crimes. Just solve all the

537
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:42,440
crimes. Just solve them. You know, I understand that there are active ones. I'm not saying that it's

538
01:10:42,440 --> 01:10:48,920
easy, but I do think, you know, there's, there's a lot of cases I think that we're kind of sitting on

539
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:57,800
and it definitely has to do with budget. I propose, I have an idea. Get it. Let the podcasters do it.

540
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:05,720
If no one needs to be convicted of any sort of home DNA, just give us all of the information and

541
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:11,800
let us kind of solve it for you. Present it to you. You can double check our work, you know.

542
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:19,800
I think the issue is that a lot of these, it's like it comes down to that if we just took the time,

543
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:26,520
if we use the resources, if we spent the money, that's probably the most critical piece,

544
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:33,640
just to run, you know, whatever DNA samples or other forensic evidence with more advanced,

545
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:38,440
you know, technology all these years later. I think a lot of them could be solved, but

546
01:11:38,440 --> 01:11:46,600
those resources just are so often not available or they're not allocated to that.

547
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:53,640
Maybe one day there will be no crime left to solve and then we'll just have to focus on all the

548
01:11:53,640 --> 01:12:02,200
last ones. Yeah, you know, just not let Oregon rebound in terms of the backlog of rape kits again.

549
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:09,080
Yeah. Like just happened because we have a backlog again, apparently. So like, great, great job,

550
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:15,240
guys. Great job of that. I read that recently and I was like, I'm so angry.

551
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:25,400
It gives me crazy eyes. Just stop fucking raping people. Yeah. What? Like it's hard?

552
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:34,040
Literally it shouldn't be that. Yeah, it just don't do it, you know. That's so easy. It's so easy

553
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:41,640
to just not do the things that suck. I'm in from my perspective for what it's worth.

554
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:47,160
All right, well, now we've talked about as butt cancer. Should we

555
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,840
introduce some tarot? Let's do some tarot. Tirit!

556
01:12:50,840 --> 01:13:13,640
Okay. Okay, pick one. Oh, interesting. Okay, we drew the sun. We're using our

557
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:20,440
tarot, Toreal dick. Do you want to know something really weird? Yeah. Obviously.

558
01:13:20,440 --> 01:13:26,040
See the shirt I had on? Oh my gosh. That's so funny. I didn't, I really didn't even notice.

559
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:30,600
The sun. And I put it on. I was like, oh, what if we got the sun card today?

560
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:38,840
That's weird. This is not weird. But like totally doesn't have anything to do with your

561
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:49,240
terrible case. I mean, I guess we'll see. Okay. So our keywords are joy, success,

562
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:56,840
enlightenment, marriage and vitality. I was associated with obviously the sun, fire.

563
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:08,680
The numbers one and ten. The sun card features a blazing sun. Sometimes with a face

564
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:17,080
sun beams radiating out from it. Beneath the sun in the rider weight Smith deck, a smiling nude

565
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:23,800
child rides a white horse. Some decks show two children with their arms around each other.

566
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:31,240
Other decks picture a young couple holding hands. The sun rules the zodiac sign Leo, which

567
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:37,240
astrologers link with child children, pleasure and creativity. All righty.

568
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:44,360
The sun card represents life itself for the sun gives life to everything on earth.

569
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:53,560
Interesting. One of the most joyful cards in the tarot, it signifies vitality,

570
01:14:53,560 --> 01:15:00,680
confidence, achievement, attainment and success in all endeavors. Okay.

571
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:08,520
I feel like maybe I feel like maybe in the interpretation here, we might get a sense of

572
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:17,240
who this is for or maybe why we're this is a just strange card to draw for this, but I feel like

573
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:23,080
maybe it's starting to make sense for me a little bit. The sun brightens any negative cards in a

574
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:31,160
reading no matter where it appears in the spread. Its influence is always beneficial. A new day is

575
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:38,280
dawning and you're glad to be alive. Whatever your question the answer is positive.

576
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:44,760
For creative people, the sun can indicate a time of increased inspiration and productivity.

577
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:51,720
Whatever you undertake at this time is likely to prosper. For the sun is shining on you.

578
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:59,000
This is a good time to start new projects and expand your horizons. It's your day in the sun.

579
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:08,360
Just makes me sad because it's like the opposite of yeah. He took every all of those women's sun,

580
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:18,440
their light, their life away. Yeah. I totally agree. I really does. I feel like the points in each

581
01:16:18,440 --> 01:16:29,720
of the bullets, they don't necessarily feel like they really add anything that gives me greater

582
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:37,560
perspective on this. I feel like this is for the girls that lived. You know what? That's interesting.

583
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,880
You say that because I was just thinking, well, that's who I was thinking of when I, he didn't even

584
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:47,160
cross my mind while I was shuffling to be honest with you. Yeah. I was just thinking of all of the women.

585
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:54,360
So that is interesting though. I do think that's the energy that I mean maybe even unintentionally

586
01:16:54,360 --> 01:17:01,800
that we were kind of putting into the deck. And I'm okay with it. Do we want to try to draw another

587
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:06,680
one and just see what pops up? Yeah. Do we need to, I feel like I need to touch it again.

588
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:12,680
Yeah. Because I wasn't thinking of him. Okay. I mean, I don't know that you have to think of him

589
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:18,840
to be quite honest. Well, I just want, but just to get a little bit of, yeah, I don't know,

590
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:24,440
something. I'm a little bit torn because I do think that like this is, it's such a positive

591
01:17:24,440 --> 01:17:30,200
reading. And I think that's the takeaway I want that. But it also was kind of like goes back to

592
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:34,440
the beginning where you're like, well, it does end on, you know, the happiest note that it could

593
01:17:34,440 --> 01:17:41,240
possibly end on like he's dead. So yeah, he's no longer. Honestly, it makes me.

594
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:50,680
I'm so happy that he lived such a long life. Because a lot of these guys will get caught, especially

595
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:56,760
when they're already, you know, like he was already in his like late 40s, I think when, you know,

596
01:17:56,760 --> 01:18:04,280
he was put away. And so it's like he could have very easily died a relatively young man.

597
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:09,000
That's not unusual for people that are incarcerated for their life spans to be

598
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:16,200
terribly cut short, which I say terribly because I think in a lot of instances, people,

599
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:22,440
if they are wrongfully convicted or they're put away for decades, for something stupid, like,

600
01:18:22,440 --> 01:18:31,400
you know, smoking a little bit of weed over, you know, I just, that kind of stuff pisses me off

601
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:38,040
because the treatment that people receive in prison is not ideal. It's not the ideal environment

602
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:44,440
for you to grow and live a long and healthy life. But for this particular person, that's...

603
01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:52,120
He's a fucking weed. He grew through the cracks. Okay, I hope he didn't get to see a lot of the sun,

604
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:57,240
you know? I'm sure he didn't. I mean, he couldn't have. Okay.

605
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:05,080
Having that conversation, I think set us on the right path for something more in line with Harvey,

606
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:13,560
that. That'll do it. Okay, so we drew the King of Cups in reverse. Our keywords would normally be

607
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:21,080
wisdom, understanding, focus, balance, and peacefulness in the upright position. However, when you

608
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:31,960
draw it in the reverse, our keywords are coldness, volatile, immature, overreaction, and manipulative,

609
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:39,480
which there are so many aspects of this case that like, I can't even, I can't even really delve into

610
01:19:39,480 --> 01:19:45,240
how relevant some of these are because they're just not things that I chose to dive deep on.

611
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:50,440
Really wanted to make sure we had plenty of time to discuss his ass cancer at the end. Yeah.

612
01:19:50,440 --> 01:20:00,360
As one does. As one does. As one does. Overreaction reminds me of like overkill. Yeah. Oh god, yeah.

613
01:20:01,480 --> 01:20:11,800
Oh, okay. So numerology, we've got numbers 14 and 5. It's, this card is also associated with the

614
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:20,360
astrological signs, Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer. I am almost positive that he was a Taurus.

615
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:29,000
May 18. Taurus is for me. They're my favorite. Yeah, that is a Taurus. Yeah. Hey, listen,

616
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:36,360
you know what? My grandpa was a Taurus and he grew up kind of in the same era as this guy. So

617
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:41,320
I don't love it either, but I mean, it kind of made sense. He never, never stopped, not even jail,

618
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:46,680
because it's awesome. Never stopped, never stopped, very headstrong. Yeah, yeah, really.

619
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:53,720
This card is also associated with water, which is interesting because there aren't really any

620
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:59,880
water elements associated with this case that I can think of, really.

621
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:05,960
Because cups and like water is like emotion. Yeah. Lots of emotions. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

622
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:13,000
Okay, so this is interesting. We do have slightly different keywords in the big book. Oh, okay.

623
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:20,040
These are obviously more intended toward the upright position, but I think it's interesting.

624
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:29,000
Benevolence, culture, creativity, emotional warmth and protection. And we drew this.

625
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:35,880
And all things opposite kind of. Did they not give keywords for the reverse interpretation?

626
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:41,640
Not necessarily. No. I don't know why you always thought that they did. Yeah, the reverse interpretation

627
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:48,920
definitely does. It touches on how the placement of the card, how the meaning is different,

628
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:55,240
but it doesn't specifically identify different keywords. Because the keywords and theory are

629
01:21:55,240 --> 01:22:00,520
the same. It's just sort of like the other side of a coin in a way. Well, not necessarily. Yeah,

630
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:05,800
I mean, that's true. Not necessarily directly opposite. In this case, it works for me that it's

631
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:13,320
like this. This is also judging from the keywords on the tutorial, territorial. Yeah.

632
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:22,840
Okay, so this is interesting. In many decks, this king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and

633
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:34,200
a crown. He usually appears as a benevolent authority, a father figure, which I think it goes without

634
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:41,000
saying that Harvey didn't have a really healthy modeling of what that might look like. He was a

635
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:46,760
father figure, not a good one. Yeah. No. I mean, he didn't have that behavior model to him either.

636
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:55,240
So it says who rules kindly and fairly, which is definitely also again, didn't go into the childhood

637
01:22:55,240 --> 01:23:04,040
nearly enough to elaborate how accurate that is. In a reading, the king of cops may signify

638
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:11,960
an actual person. When he does, it's generally a mature man who's cultured and knowledgeable in the arts.

639
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:19,400
Which could not be further from the case. He studied criminal psychology. Yeah, he's very cultured

640
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:25,480
and artistic. It's funny because as soon as I said it, I was like, well, he did go in person. Yeah.

641
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:33,640
Okay. This is when we really, really, really get, we get to the crux of Harvey, I think.

642
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:38,520
Is this where we get to the meat and meaty mitts of the situation? The ham of it all. Yeah.

643
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:46,440
The reversed king shows emotional turmoil, insecurity and defensiveness.

644
01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:56,600
In security, I like the whole raping people with foreign objects just screams, yeah, in security.

645
01:23:56,600 --> 01:23:59,640
It's a power move. It's just everything that's big.

646
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:12,280
If he represents a real person, he can be manipulative, emotionally controlling and vindictive.

647
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:18,040
And boy, oh boy. Yikes. Check, check, check.

648
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:25,400
This card suggests dissatisfaction and frustration.

649
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:33,640
Perhaps because you aren't using your creativity. Because you could have used your creativity

650
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:40,920
to take a bad situation at so many different points in your life and figure out a way to creatively

651
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:48,120
solve problems and make your life better. But you didn't. But you didn't. But how much of that was

652
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:55,000
like his choice and like his mental illness, you know? Like if he had had maybe support for his

653
01:24:55,000 --> 01:25:03,720
mental illness, he was not entirely without support really. It was so long ago though, like they

654
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:08,680
don't have like the medications that they do now and the things are very different. I do think

655
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:16,840
that there's a lot of very clear indication that there are absolutely just like horrific choices

656
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:24,920
being made, horrendous decision making. And that is kind of the crux of like, you know, he's just

657
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:32,440
the recidivism alone just constantly being incarcerated in the parole violations and all of that. It's

658
01:25:32,440 --> 01:25:38,360
just, I mean, come on, that's a choice. That's a choice. But God was telling him to kill people.

659
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:42,440
Right. You know, so that's, I mean, is that obviously I'm not excusing him.

660
01:25:42,440 --> 01:25:47,800
Can you say, I'm just, no, it's no, it's part of the story though. Like it is.

661
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:51,720
If things had been different, if there was better medication, I just wonder like what,

662
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:56,920
yeah, but what have been different? I don't know how they would medicate for something like a

663
01:25:56,920 --> 01:26:03,320
severe anti social personality disorder. I think he had to have had like schizophrenia or something.

664
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:10,760
If he's hearing God tell him to kill people. I just, I think that a lot of my resources kind of

665
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:17,240
indicate like that was just something that, I think most people just believe that something he said.

666
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:24,200
I don't think that that was, I don't think that was real. I don't think that was real. Who knows?

667
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:29,640
Who knows? I mean, he did mention more than once, you know, how God told him things and said,

668
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:37,080
do this, do untrue God and just like screams gets a franning at me. Like people in your head

669
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:40,600
telling you to do things. I mean, and that's fair. I can see how you, yeah.

670
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:44,920
But also he studied criminal psychology. So what they're just making it up, who knows?

671
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:49,880
I, you know, and that's the thing is like I struggle with like, okay, how much of this is real?

672
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:55,880
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Nobody knows. And you know what? We,

673
01:26:55,880 --> 01:27:06,920
fortunately, we don't ever have to find out really. Okay. Oh shit. Okay. Okay. Terrows here to

674
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:14,040
back me up in a reading about money, the reverse king can show losses resulting from decisions made

675
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:20,280
emotionally rather than rationally. Just hello. Not a lot of rational thought there.

676
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:28,360
Sometimes it indicates laziness, lack of direction or an indulgent nature that lands you in debt.

677
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:37,240
Like indulgent. Indulgent. Yeah. If the reading is about your job, this card suggests

678
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:47,160
territorialism and power struggles, which is yeah. If I, if I can't have you, nobody can.

679
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:54,120
That's yeah, that's kind of immediately where my head goes. Okay. You may fear losing ground and

680
01:27:54,120 --> 01:28:02,760
try to control others. Absolutely. Secrecy, duplicity and manipulation may exist in your workplace

681
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:08,520
or just like wherever you go. It's so interesting. You said he afraid of losing ground. Is that

682
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:15,960
why he was speeding constantly? I mean, that could be. And ironically, then he left tire tracks.

683
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:23,400
Yeah. So grand. He did lose ground. He lost like little bits of some and they were in that he's

684
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:31,560
neat little lines that represented his specific vehicle. In a question about love, the reverse king

685
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:39,720
can mean fear of expressing love and caring. Jealousy, defensiveness and or emotional outbursts

686
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:51,240
may cause problems. Perhaps you feel insecure in a partnership. Wow. Just insecure man all around.

687
01:28:51,240 --> 01:29:00,680
Yeah. A lot of insol energy. Yeah. I mean, let's face it, a lot of a lot of serial killers really do

688
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:07,800
represent like this. It's a it's a real it's a real strong insol vibe in that crowd. Yeah.

689
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:16,360
Yucky. Yeah. Well, thanks for telling us about another one. Appreciate you. You're so welcome.

690
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:22,600
I'm really excited to share with you guys another case. And it's interesting because there are

691
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:31,080
sort of some parallels, you know, mainly geographically and some things like that. But yeah, I'm

692
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:38,760
California. California doesn't specifically make another appearance. Washing this. Washing

693
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:47,800
tin. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. Minnesota. Not Minnesota, but the Midwest. I'm just guessing all the places

694
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:54,680
you talked about today. Name them off one by one. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, the big one would be,

695
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:59,080
you know what? No, I'm not going to say it. No, don't say it. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it.

696
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:03,880
Have the creepy ass day. We'll see you next Tuesday.

697
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:08,760
I'll show you on the Patreon because there's a good chance we'll see you sooner. Probably. Yeah.

698
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:11,160
Usually. Usually do. We see you all all the time.

699
01:30:11,480 --> 01:30:19,480
[Music]

700
01:30:19,480 --> 01:30:28,040
I'm wild. Obviously I thought up until basically today I was doing it completely different case.

701
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:31,400
And I was like, "Well, you should a bit off more than I can chew with my ham hands."

702
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:38,120
I can make that joke because clearly I don't have ham hands. They're not,

703
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:43,720
they're nothing like a, they're, I can barely pick up a ham. They're more like,

704
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:51,720
piglet hands. Oh, I do have kind of like pink. My hands are always a little pink. I just make

705
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:56,200
Christianard do some little little, little, little, little piglet. Little piglet hands. pnwhauntsandhomicides.com