Podcast discovery remains a daunting task: With no single platform owning podcasting, finding new shows can be a hassle. Today's episode is packed with insights that can help you navigate these challenges.
In this episode, Mathew Passy talks to Lindsay Graham on "Overcoming Discoverability Hurdles in Podcasting." Lindsay Graham is a renowned podcast creator, producer, and host, known for popular shows like "American Scandal," "American History Tellers," and "American Criminal." He is also the founder of Thrumm, a production music library aimed at aiding narrative podcasters.
Main topics covered in the episode: Lindsay discusses the ongoing challenges of discoverability and recommendation algorithms in the fragmented podcasting ecosystem. He also shares his insights on high-end podcasting gear, desired technological advancements like dynamic content insertion, and his personal listening habits and professional insights.
Why this episode is important: If you're a podcaster grappling with discoverability issues, Lindsay's experiences and recommendations are valuable. Gain firsthand insights from someone who has successfully maneuvered through these challenges and continues to push for industry advancements.
In this episode, we cover:
Links and resources mentioned in this episode:
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us on this exciting journey to unlock the full potential of your
podcast. It is not often that I get to
interview somebody on this show who I'm actually a little bit
of a fan and having a little bit of a moment of nervousness.
Today, we are chatting with Lindsay Graham. And as he said in his bio no.
Not that Lindsey Graham. He's a podcast creator, producer,
and a host of a bunch of very good podcasts. And the
one that I know him best for most notably is American scandal from Wondery.
If you have not checked it out, I implore you to do so. It is
fantastic, and he does a great job. And he is also the founder
of Thrum, and that is a company that is providing
really interesting audio services to help podcasters, and we'll talk about all those
things and many, many more. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us here on
the show today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Oh, it is such a
joy to meet you, and I was I was so glad we got to meet
in person over at podcast movement last month. Yeah. That was
fun. So let's start right away with Throm because that's the the big exciting
thing that I was first drawn to you. I mean, I had known of you
from listening to the show, but then I think I saw on pod news that
you were launching this service, and I saw you were attached to it. So I
got really excited. Tell me, what does Throm do, and and how did it
get started? Sure. So Throm, at its most
basic, is a music library for podcasts
and other similar endeavors. It's,
it's music for storytellers for you know, really. And, it
springs from my own experience, making these narrative
history, you know, shows that I do. Way back when we
started the the first one, American History Tellers, and then soon after
American Scandal, I mean, I guess the reason I I got
into podcast was because I was familiar with audio through music,
and I had this little studio, you know, in my backyard that I'm talking to
you from. And, and so, I composed all the
music for those shows, way back when
because, really finding finding music that fit,
you know, exactly what I was looking for fit for my purpose was really,
really difficult, given the production music libraries
that are are out there. That's not saying that that the music is bad.
In fact, a lot of it is really good, but it's built for a different
purpose. If you are doing short form
video, you've got, you know, the the world's your oyster
because all of that music is built for that.
It is not built for a 45 minute cinematically scored,
narrative driven storytelling experience in which is, you know,
what's really an underscore that that, that
is, what I'm looking for. And, so I I
had to compose it myself. And, as I became
busier and busier being a podcaster, I just couldn't
continue being a composer as well.
So, I began to think, carefully
about how we can reuse musical
elements, how they can be composed to a certain purpose from the very
beginning so that they're the most adaptable, they're the most
useful, they're the most editable, they're the fastest things, you know, piece
of equipment I, you know, I can have in the studio, and still
achieve the goals of of bringing emotion, and storytelling
chops to or or utility to to the
story. So over, I don't know, a couple
of years, I kind of developed this system of always
composing in the same key, of always composing in the same
tempo, of always kind of fitting things
into certain types of cues because I found myself looking for something
like, well, I need something that's kind of actiony right now, or I need something
that's kind of suspensey right now, or I need to resolve that suspense right
now, or I need something neutral just that's underneath
as I, you know, exposit or just talk about facts.
And so this system was built, that everything's in the same
key, everything's in the same tempo, and everything's organized by narrative
function, not musical genre or something like
that. And having done that work, I hired a
composer and, thought, you know, maybe other
podcasters would would enjoy this too.
So if I'm a first time podcaster or or first time
narrative podcast producer, what is the experience
like when I go to thrum versus, like you said, the
EVVY of excellent royalty free music libraries out there
for, you know, more generic intro, outro music? Like, what what is it that I'm
gonna be doing to get the best content from the platform?
Well, we organize everything by album. You know, we kind of still think,
thematically and musically. So, in in
inside every every album is a collection of 80 to a
120 different tracks that are all thematically or aesthetically
grouped. So, if you were trying to
investigate, thrum, I would I would audition a few
albums and find one that's, like, in your ballpark. We try to name them
evocatively to get you to get you there, like, quirky in the
dark is a pretty clear one. That that's, you know, it it might be a
a kind of a madcap true crime sort of adventure if you're
especially if you're into, oh, I don't know, Murders in the Building.
You know, there this is the album for you. Right?
And, so if you do find an aesthetic then, what
you'll what you'll discover is that album is very rich,
with, every track, has
a, a regular mix, an alternate mix, a reduced mix to
kind of spark you know, clean it up and make it even more sparse, but
they're all the same. They're like variations on motifs. And then
they're all organized by these these narrative functions so
that when you get to that moment where you need to switch moods, you could
stay within the same album and just find the different function.
But because everything's in the same key and same tempo, you don't need to stay
in the same album. Any any track across the 5,000 in the
library, are are harmonically and rhythmically
compatible. Excellent. Well, we encourage everyone to check that out at
thrum. That's thrum.audio, and, of course, we'll have a
link to it so you could see right there. I'm curious. You said you started
as a musician, and if you're not watching the video, I implore you to go
check it out and see some of the guitars that we have on the back
wall behind Lindsay, including a portrait of George, Washington there.
How did you discover that, you know, going
from music production to narrative storytelling, like, how
did you know that your skills
translated or or what was it that made you say, I can compose
music for storytelling versus just, you know, writing songs?
Well, there I guess there are 2 questions there. You know? The first one is
I never expected to be on this side of the mic. I never expected to
be a voice over talent. You know, music and audio
production, was always just a a hobby while I went
to my 9 to 5, you know, job in marketing.
A great accident happened, in about 2014,
2015 in which I was fired from one of those jobs. And,
and, I decided to try my hand at making something
I love, also my career.
I don't recommend this route for many people, but it
worked out for me. I I started as a, an audiobook
company that turned into kind of a podcast company that eventually
I left. But one of those shows got the attention of Wondery, and then
my career just took off from there. But how did I know
the second question is how did I know, that I could compose
for storytelling? I think I
think I was doing that anyways. If you're a musician,
or a a producer, bands are super super
fun, and, I enjoy that a great
deal. But you're also looking to to just find your next job.
And a lot of that is in media production. You know, bands are by almost
definition broke, and so they're not paying you much.
But TV and film or documentaries or
short short films, that's that's interesting and it's
a it's a it's a job. So, I've been doing
I had been doing composing for commercial and,
and for image, for video for for a while,
and and kind of knew how how it worked. So it wasn't
too far a stretch really to to then say, okay, well, I've scored
a a 10 minute industrial video. I can probably score
a 45 minute history documentary.
With 45 minute history documentary, for someone
who's never done this type of work, you know, lots of podcasters are
seeing the prospects of narrative podcasting, where they can go with
it, how much fun they can have with it. It's definitely a growing field and
certainly shows that are committing that kind
of work and dedication and production to it,
you know, are getting pretty good response out there in the podcasting space, whereas
some of the more basic interview shows are not
quite breaching, you know, through the noise that's out there.
But how do you know where to
put music or maybe even more importantly,
where not to put music? Because I think there's often a urge
to fill the entire thing with music,
but I think that would honestly kind of be, you know, it
would almost be detrimental to the project. Well, that's interesting
because you know me from American Scandal, which has wall to wall music
in it. There's not a point in which there's not music.
But that does that does differ
from American History Tellers, which is, kind of a a drier,
more narration forward format.
I think I think you can go either way.
There is going to be a balance, or an aesthetic that you
find, a a style. And,
for history tellers, I'll I'll I'll focus on that because that's the one that that
that has music in moderation.
It is really, useful as punctuation.
If you think of your your entire episode as
maybe a a a a one paragraph short story
in which there's a beginning, a middle, and an end, and things
happen, and and you need to punctuate those
sentences, that's probably where the music
goes. Is it an exclamation point? Is it a question mark? Is
it, you know, a colon or a semicolon, or is it a, you
know, a section break indicating a big pause?
Music does this, really well to
indicate the starts and ends of things.
We know something's coming up or we know that something's ending even
if it's even if it's inconclusive. If I
if I, tell you something,
that is that has incomplete information,
you may be, as a listener, left wondering, well, well, you didn't
tell me everything. What's what's going on here? But if I put
a a sting underneath it or or a bit of a rise,
of underscore and that falls away,
that's much more purposeful. I have told you through the music
that I know that you know or you don't have all the
information, and I will probably get to it later.
There's all sorts of ways to manipulate, your story using
music, but if it's interspersed, it's
mostly and probably primarily as punctuation and signposting
to to the audience. This is what's happening now, and I'm
on I'm in control of it. That's
interesting. You know, I'm you say this, and I'm gonna have to
go back and relisten. I don't think I realized there's music throughout all of American
scandal. I really thought that you know, I've always heard the
music as a place for transition, right, or a
place to, you know, accentuate a point or more
importantly, a place to give the listener a
chance to really absorb what you just said. Right? You said something really
important. Here's a little of the music so that you really have to think about
it now. Right? You're not just waiting for the next thing to be said or
moving out to the next thought, but, I I mean, I guess that means the
music is so effective that I don't even realize it's going on the entire time.
Well, you've pointed out the the functional music, you know, the stuff that
that is there to be listened to, that the the ins and outs, the beginnings
and the ends, the conspicuous pauses.
Probably what you're not hearing, at least consciously,
is all the, manipulative music,
the tonal stuff. Now American Scandal has a lot of
very drony, dark music underneath it. It
doesn't it's not doing a lot, you know, rhythmically or harmonically or
melonically. It's just there as a as a vapor in the
room. And, but it's setting a
mood, and I I would I would be very interested for you to
listen to your next American Scandal episode, you know,
critically. And then and let me know what you think the
music is doing, because it should be
changing tensions, shifting moods,
making you feel tense or relaxed.
It I mean, it is there to manipulate you. I I
can probably say with 95% certainty, I've
never listened feeling relaxed. I'm always feeling
tense or anger or something at the
the amount of atrocities that have been committed in
history and frankly, some of
the amazing changes to society that have been made by people
who are just trying to cover something up. I mean, it seems like almost most
of these stories, right, there's an incident, and that's
bad, but the cover up and the deception
and, you know, the the lengths to which people will go to cover their
own asses is what really creates the scandal.
But, yes, I'm definitely gonna listen with a very different, ear next time and and
pay attention to that. And, obviously, I'm fanboyning all over
American Scandal. If you haven't listened truly, you have to check it out. There are
just some amazing stories. It's a great education. It
really will open your eyes up to the way the world works, unfortunately.
Do you have, like, a signature
in the music? You know, is there something that
people will hear and immediately say, ah, that's a that's
a Lindsey Graham. That's an airship thing. Is there something you always like to you
know, almost like, filmmakers like to throw on, like, a Wilhelm scream in there.
Right? Right. Yeah. No. I don't think we
have, you know, an inside joke like that or
or or, you know, an inside anything. I mean, I do think
we have an anesthetic, and that that
stems from, you know, originally, it was all me doing all the
stuff. And so I only have my own taste to go by. But over
the years, we've we've developed a a a process and a
method. You know, the shows that the shows were successful.
So, we we tried not to break
what was what we tried not to fix what wasn't broken.
And, and so, yeah, there's there's definitely some form
formulas to to how we work. And I think if you listen to if you
listen to American Criminal, which I don't host, but my
my my company produces, and you listen to American
Scandal, there will be probably a lot of
similarities in in the the the infrastructure
underneath. But, no. Nothing like a
Wilhelm scream. I do I I will tell you I
hate downbeats. I hate heavy downbeats.
So if if you're ending a section or you're making a point,
I hate ending on a bum, like
12341. That's just so
obvious to me. I would much rather end on something that
just whiffs away into the atmosphere, a 123 and.
I do notice that a lot of the things linger and
not in a bad way, but just they're there and they slowly fade away until
the next start be you know, the next piece begins or, you know, you move
on to the next the the next portion of the show.
I'm curious, what year were you approached by Wondery, and
what was it like to go from, you know, a
marketing person with a musical background to a, I'm
gonna, you know, kinda try this podcasting thing to,
you know, being approached and ultimately, I
guess acquired might might not be the right word, but, you know, ultimately
partnering with what is one of the most successful
content production brands in the space today?
Yeah. Well, I, in a, in a one word, it was fantastic.
So, you know, I never really knew what I was gonna
do when I grew up. I I much of
my school career was just, doing what was
expected of me next. I got my MBA
for almost petty reasons because a a coworker of mine announced
that they were going in to get theirs. And I was like, oh, I'll be
damned if you're gonna get one and I'm not going to.
And so, you know, I I I I I have no good internal
personal reasons for for do doing these things, for making
some career choices, other than, you know, you need
the money to pay the rent. Right? And I think that's probably
true for a great portion of of people out there. So,
podcasting was this opportunity to
kind of assemble many of the things that I I knew I liked
doing, and put them in one place. You know, I I
do have a, you know, a a business mind. I
like spreadsheets and and I like running my company.
I also like podcasts. I like audio. I I love music.
I like storytelling. So this is just getting better and better the more things I
get to to, you know, cobble together here. So it was transformative,
and is. I'm the happiest, most content I've ever been in my
life right now, and I hope next year is even better, you know? And I
I know I know that that's a place of privilege,
but, it's it's it's great great to be here.
I, love that you say it that way. When I was
consulting with people, I was always asked, you know, what makes for a successful podcast
or, you know, why should I do this or or, you know, how do you
know a show is gonna be good? And one of the things that
I found was that most of the shows who found any level
of success, right, whether they were, you know, Kelsey Brothers
being acquired by Amazon or, you know, this guy being acquired
by Spotify, or even just the person who, you know, does it and
then finds that there's a few 1,000 people in their niche
who love what they do and now gravitate to them,
is that the person doing it, they
are having fun. Like, they would wake up
and wanna do this podcast even if nobody listened.
And obviously, that's not a great business model, but it
sounds like storytelling, narrative, music, right, this whole
combination is just fun and
joyful with a lot of work. Right? I'm not downplaying the fact that you
guys put a lot of effort into this, but, you know, the fact that you
love doing it probably makes it easier to be successful at it.
Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the the big ingredients. I mean, I
couldn't do it as a job if it weren't successful. I mean, you've got a
horrible catch 22 there. You know,
I'm, I put in the work because I have the time and I have the
time because it is successful and, you know, where the chicken and the egg
is in that sentence, I don't, I don't really know. But,
yeah, I, I think I am one of the lucky ones. Look,
also, I don't really enjoy doing all the accounting
every month or, you know, being the only IT person in
my company, you know, etcetera, etcetera. There are things that
you need to do, wheels that need to be greased and cogs that need to
need to be cleaned so that this machine keeps going.
But, Yeah. I mean, I I think I think I
love it. And, it's it's not something I
really ever dreamt of or or saw on the horizon, but,
once it came close to me, man, I was I was really grabbing
for it. Oh, I love that. And, yeah, I mean, obviously, that that's a
cash 22, but I'm thinking one of my old clients was a guy. He's a
chess teacher, and he enjoys teaching chess. He
was teaching a couple of students here and there, and this was back
in 2016 ish. So podcasting was, you know, gaining
some traction, but wasn't a a huge deal the way it is today. And he
approached me. He's like, you know, I really love listening to these podcasts over here
in the finance space, but nobody's doing anything like this for chess. And I just
love talking about chess, so I'm gonna do it. And he he did
it, and he wasn't making a lot of money off of it.
And but he loved it. He just got to talk to more and more
people from the chess world, and then, you know, putting in that passion, putting in
that time, having the patience. A a few years later, he
was being approached by some of the biggest companies in
chess. He was talking to these grandmasters and worldmasters in
chess. His show became this
this place where people
wanted to be. Right? It was like it was like validating. Right? You're
not you're not a superstar in chess unless you unless you've spoken to this guy
and appeared on his show, and it just came out of his passion
for it. So it yes. It takes work, and it's you
know, success obviously breeds more success, but, you know,
advice to those out there thinking about a podcast, if you
don't love what you're doing, if you don't wake up and wanna do
it, it's probably gonna be a bigger struggle. What what about what other
advice would you give to someone, especially someone who's thinking about going down this
more narrative, you know,
produced podcast role Right. Road as opposed to just the, I'm just
gonna talk to the folks in my industry like I get to do. Yeah.
Well, it's a lot more work, obviously, the you know, on on the production
side, you know, you you have to do many more
things, because you're making a different product. I mean, we call it a podcast,
but, it is really different from what we're doing right now
to what I will go back to doing in a few minutes.
It's it's the difference between, you know,
reality TV and, a feature film,
or it can be. So be prepared for the work. But,
I think if if you
if you have a passion for a for a subject
and you have a passion for teaching, because that's really kind of what
we're doing here. There are also investigative
document documentary, narratives too.
So you could either be a documentarian or you could be a a
journalist by nature. You have a subject that you love and
can't stop thinking about. And
and then probably, you have to assess whether you
are a storyteller. I don't
know if it's nature or nurture, frankly. I think
it's probably both. But, I would I
would wonder when I'm at a party and I start telling a
story, do people pay attention? Do they
follow? Do they laugh? Do they, you know, gasp?
When do you enjoy telling that story? Is, are the, is the audience
reaction the one you want? And do you get it often?
Because I, I think if, if you realize that you have
that ability to tell a story at a cocktail party and be engaging,
you probably have some native native ability to figure
out what the the longer story is and and
use those, those innate skills and hone
them so that you can craft a story that,
the twists and turns and keeps your audience on the hook.
Love it. Love it. As a reminder, we are chatting
with Lindsey Graham. He's the founder of thrum, and that is the
platform for, production music library for podcasters
and documentarians and those who really wanna tell a
story. And he is also a podcast creator, producer,
and a host of very, very good shows and, many
well known ones including American Scandal, which we've talked about, History
Daily, Business Movers, American History Tellers. One that I
saw on your list that I'm gonna be checking out, 18/65 that I'm excited to
check out. And so we'll have a we'll have a link
to his link tree so you can find all this great stuff. We'll have a
link to thrum, so you can go check out that platform, and
also maybe check out airship.fm. That's the production company that,
you founded. But, before we let you go, Lindsay, we have
a couple of questions we like to ask everybody. And given
your place in the podcasting world, I'd be very curious to
hear, some of these answers. So first is, is
there a place or is there something within the podcasting
world that you would like to see improved?
That can be hardware, software, it could be from
the production side, from the listening side, like, is there just something that you think,
gosh, I wish we could change this and make podcasting better for
everybody? Oh, I'm sure there is.
It it is probably, it is
probably still discovery. You know, there's not a
great search or or
recommendation algorithm out there that that is,
that works for everyone. You know, one of the
great things about podcasting is it's this, you know, open ecosystem,
and no single platform owns podcasting. But that also means
that there's it's fragmented and hard to find. And, you
know, I as an example, my podcast,
American Criminal, which was launched just this year,
had a little bit of of promotion or or, you know,
in in Spotify. And, what
was once about 5050 Apple Spotify is now, like, 95%
Spotify in terms of audience breakdown. I
can't get Apple users to find this show.
But by example, Spotify, users found the show and
enjoyed it because a lot more came along for the ride. So I know
that there are people using Apple Podcasts that would like this show if they could
just find it. And, that's that's
really frustrating, especially when I have metrics that can demonstrate
that this show could have a bigger audience if the platforms
had an ability to really find the people who are looking for it.
I'll make sure to put the Apple link to that show in particular
so that people can find it. I know. Any because I wanna check that out.
Every listener is a good listener. I don't mind at all. But, you know, I
just know that I'm leaving listeners on the table on the Apple side of the
equation. So, if there were some better,
you know, and I don't think it's a single system, you know, like like YouTube's
algorithm or something. I think it just takes a a
maturation of the industry still that people say, hey,
I I I need a new podcast, and, it's it's a lot easier
to find, than than it is currently.
I like that. Is there any piece
of tech that is on your wish list?
And by that, I mean, you know, something out there that you have always wanted
that you wanna buy or maybe something that hasn't even been
created that you would like to see made that would make your studio
more enjoyable? And I say this knowing that you have a fantastic studio, and if
you wanna just tell us about some of the basic equipment you're using for the
podcast, we'd love it. Oh, sure. And this is stupid, stupid
gear stuff, and a lot of it is, like, 10 times more expensive than it
needs to be. So with that caveat,
so over here, we'll we'll run down my signal chain.
I start with a Neumann U 87 AI. So
the the utmost broadcast NPR standard of microphones.
I previously used a a AKG's,
c 44 c 14 c 414.
And that was fine. But, you know, I I got the Neumann, and I I
stayed with it. That goes into a
Rupert Neve Designs Shelford channel. That's
my preamp, and EQ and compressor. And then
that goes into an RME Fireface
UCX 2. That's my, kind of multichannel,
audio interface. And I like that because I've got, the
remote, the USB remote, and it's got a lot of functionality, on
it. That goes into my home built
PC, and
that, goes into Reaper,
Kakkos' Reaper. That's my DAW of choice.
And we do everything in Reaper. All my employees work
in Reaper. It's it's lightweight, inexpensive, and really powerful.
I I had a few, contractors I worked with who love and swore by
Reaper, so I could definitely appreciate that. So is there anything out
there that you would like to see made
or, something out there that you don't have that you wanna pick
up? I was thinking about this actually
earlier this morning, and it's interesting. It's it's on the it's on the
hosting side. I wish more,
podcast hosts, and currently I use Art 19 and
Megaphone. There are many, many others, and I don't have experience with
them all. But I wish their dynamic insertion
for ads, promos, and content were a was a little
more robust. What what I mean by that is right now,
oftentimes, I can insert I can
mark insertion points for things that are promos or
ads. And and sometimes the ads have
differentiation of pre roll or mid roll or post roll.
And sometimes the promo promo can be promo only or
like bottom of the funnel, you know, sort of,
if nothing else is in there. I would like a many
many many more, opportunities to mark
things so that, I can dynamically change
my content as it's appropriate for for me, for
marketing. The one thing I really don't wanna do is,
what has been asked of me recently, go back to an old
episode and change the the introduction to
mention the new American History Tellers book.
Right? And I I I'll be fine to do that, and it makes sense. I
want the book to sell, but I don't want to change
the episode audio to stuff in this
marketing thing into what is, you know, the
program. I would love instead to dynamically insert
it,
and let it be known that it's content. It's not a promo. It's not ad.
You know, it's it's not a pre roll. It's not a post roll. I could
should make it anything I want. I would love to, have,
upload 4 different files that are is my colopen, my
intro, act 1, act 2, and act 3, and my,
outro and my credits, where that's 7 files, and have
them dynamically assembled so that I could, eventually swap
out any one of them. So,
you know, and, you know, all all sorts of things I could do
with, with dynamic content, you know,
especially if I was more current events, that makes it even more
important because maybe I can address things based on geolocation
or, you know, time of day that a listener is listening
to something. There's just a fascinating array of
opportunities if hosting companies allow me more power in
dynamic insertion. You are
speaking my language. I would love,
love to be able to truth, I'd love to develop it,
but even use a platform that allowed you to
have more geolocal and,
like, time dynamic insertion. Right? I think that would open
up huge opportunities in lots of different
areas, and I could probably talk to you about that for another 33 minutes,
but maybe I'll take that offline with you another day. But I oh, I love
that answer. That's a great answer. Thank you. The last one, this is probably
gonna be the hardest question you are asked, is
is there a podcast out there right now that you are listening to
that no matter what you're doing, when the new episode drops, you stop and you
turn to it, like a favorite podcast that, just has
your attention? The answer is no.
I knew it was gonna be a hard one. I will expand I will expound.
As you might imagine with with, 3 weekly,
shows, a a a 3, one
daily show, and then managing and producing about 3 others,
I'm listening to a lot of audio a lot of the time.
When when I clock out, at the end of the day, the last thing I
wanna do is listen to something. So I drive
home, with the radio off and just the
sound of my own wheels driving me crazy. That's, that's
kind of all I want. Now there are certain shows that
that, when I, have an opportunity, a vacation along, you
know, a road trip or something like that, I will get back into,
Revisionist history has always been a favorite of mine.
Malcolm Gladwell, just has a, a
way about him, a humor and, a curiosity that I find
really compelling. Smartless does, does it
for pure entertainment. I really enjoy it.
I I've listened to Smartless a lot for their ads because I
get a lot of the same copy and, and I just wanna
check-in on, you know, how they're doing it,
and compared to maybe even take notes on how I can, you
know, do the next ad. So
there's 2 that I listen to, you know, recreationally, but I'm
really not a a large or intrepid
podcast consumer. I I understand that
feeling when I was heavy into the production company and editing
audio all day. When I finally was able to shut down the computer and not
have to work anymore, I would just throw the headphones and be like, ah, I'm
done with this and put on a screen. Right? Like, give me something other than,
you know, audio to listen to so I I can understand and appreciate that,
and I like I like hearing that you listen to shows for
the research on how to do the commercials. I think that's a that's
a unique perspective that I think other people could learn from because,
you know, yes, the the audience might groan at the thought of commercials,
but, man, when shows do them right and they could be entertaining
and they can be useful and engaging and
fun, I mean, that really is gonna go a long way to support your venture,
your project, and your passion. So, you know, don't
just don't just do it to get it done, but, you know, take the time
to think about it, and it will really help your ability to keep supporting the
project that you're working on. Lindsey Graham,
this has been an absolute joy. As a reminder to everybody, he's the founder
of thrum.audio, thrum.audio.
It's a musical library for narrative documentary
podcasters who wanna really turn up their game on how
they add audio and music to their productions, and he
is the host and creator of several chart
topping shows, notably, obviously, American Scandal,
which I've already said I've listened to many, American History Tellers,
History Daily, a few others, American Criminal out
there, and a few more that we'll try and have links to all of them
here in the show notes and implore you to check them out. You will
love Lindsay's dulcet tones, in your ears when you're listening to these
shows. It is a real pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank
you, Matthew. Thanks for joining us today on
Podcasting Tech. There are links to all the hardware and software
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