Ep5 Dr Samuel Douglas - Inside Australia's Psychedelic Revolution: Ethics, Access, and Community Leadership

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  0:00  
What we often call holding space for these conversations, even when you're not doing therapy or medical advice, just being in relationship. These issues come up around mental health. How to empower people ethically is really essential. Welcome to psychedelic source where wisdom meets practice in the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine. I'm your host, Dr Sandra Dreisbach, and I'm here to help you navigate the complex intersection of ethics, business and personal growth in a psychedelic space, whether you're a practitioner, therapist, entrepreneur, or simply curious about this transformative field, you found your source for authentic dialog, practical resources and community connection in each episode, we'll dive deep into the stories, strategies and ethical considerations that matter most to our growing ecosystem. Let's tap in to our inner source of wisdom and explore what it means to build a sustainable and ethical psychedelic future together.

VO  1:07  
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Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:39  
In this episode of psychedelic source. I have the opportunity to talk to Dr Sam Douglas. He is a philosopher and educator with over 15 years of experience teaching professional ethics, philosophy of language, education, critical thinking at University of Newcastle. His academic work is also complemented by his work in over two decades of involvement of Australian plant medicine and psychedelic communities, as well as working in relationship with yours truly here and is a co founder of epic, ethical psychedelic international community, and in our conversation, we start by looking at some of his his own experiences and the beginnings of his relationship with Lance, from his father, who was a botanist, and his own love and relationship with Lance and discovering their medicinal purposes to work more recently, in ethical practice and advocacy and education and the both the the love and the struggles and the challenges and the beauty of being in the psychedelic plant medicine space. Well, welcome Sam. It's so wonderful to have you here, it's you're never gonna see me. What's my joke everyone? Because Sam and I work together at Epic, at the goal psychedelic, international community. We see each other quite regularly. We've known each other quite for a few years now. I'm trying to think of when we when we first met, but but maybe you could tell the audience a little bit about you and your background and and how you came into work in the psychedelic space. But welcome.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  3:27  
Thank you. Sandra, yeah. We never talk, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, I was born now, once upon

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  3:37  
a time there was a boy in

Dr. Samuel Douglas  3:39  
a galaxy far far away. Yeah, I my interest in psychedelics does go back a long way. I had a really long running interest in the natural world and plants and plant medicines since I was a child. I grew up on a farm. My dad has worked as well. We were, you know, we were farmers, but he also worked as a horticulturist and a botanist and doing plant regeneration. So these are plants and trees. And, you know, these sort of things, are things that I was just naturally curious about my whole life.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  4:24  
Girl, I love that. I love that. So your dad was into was a botanist, and you were raised with plants. So your relationship with with plants and and possibly, was there any sense of relationship with plants as being plant medicine, or was it more in terms of study or fascination or harvesting fascination?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  4:43  
I think, yeah, and, and, sort of, you know, intently, kind of observing them when I was small. It was when I was, I think, about 11 or 12, when I realized that plants could be medicines after I watched a. There's a documentary on on TV here about permaculture and I, and I demanded, after watching this, demanded, after watching this half an hour show on permaculture, that my parents buy me a permaculture book for Christmas, because that's what every normal 12 year old asks for. Well, apparently it is for you.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  5:19  
I mean,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  5:20  
yeah, totally, and yeah in this so my parents, oh, that year I got a copy of permaculture, one for for Christmas. And, you know, there's lots of stuff in that. Anyone who's read the book knows it's packed with with interesting things. But at the back of it, it has all the list of plants and what their uses are. And it's reading through these lists of plants and their uses and and then going, Oh, this plant can be used, you know, for fevers, and this plant can be used for parasites. And, you know, that was kind of, I think, where I really got my first contact with going, Oh, well, look, here's a thing that actually just lists things that you can do with plants. And, you know, medical uses for, you know, medicinal uses for plants. And it really, I think that was kind of a real point where I went, Oh, aha. You know, there's all this stuff that's just out there, you know, in the world, and going, and

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  6:16  
maybe we should position you a little bit more in the world. Sam, where in the world are you and and how, how are you more recently related to the psychedelic space?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  6:27  
Yep. So I've, I'm in Australia. I've lived in Australia my whole life. I'm currently on the, the mid north coast. I think you'd call it about, I think two thirds. Two thirds the way, a third the way. Anyway, I'm north of Sydney, south of Brisbane, you know, in the kind of middle wild part of the coastline there where it's not quite tropical, but very hot. I Yeah. More recently, my my contact with psychedelics was through, first through the shaman Australis web forums, where I'd been been a member there sort of for most of my adult life, and that was kind of formed a core of of one of the underground communities here in

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  7:18  
Australia. Could you tell us about what that forum is. You know, for people who are not it was

Dr. Samuel Douglas  7:23  
originally sprang up, I guess there was a, there is a plant medicine nursery that was just called Sharman Australis. And the owner of that nursery set up a forum for people who were interested in the kind of things that that they were selling at that time. And the you know, business from the nurseries is relatively niche, but the web forum itself just kind of grew like crazy through the late 90s, early 2000s and it was a reasonably at one point, a reasonably central place. It still exists. By the way. It's not very active, but everything is still there. Yeah, it was a place where, sort of people who are interested in psychedelics and plant medicines and things, you know, obscure, nerdy plant stuff from around Australia could could gather online and, you know, have insane, sort of obsessive arguments about plants and plant medicines and drugs and stuff.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  8:27  
So they would talk about psychedelic experiences, psychedelic plants. It's part of

Dr. Samuel Douglas  8:31  
the totally, totally, yeah, it's just not limited, say, plant medicines. It wasn't limited to psychedelic plants. I mean, it's heavy focus. But that wasn't all of it. It was everything. I mean, it was mainly psychoactive plants, kinds of psychoactive plants, just not necessarily psychedelic, but also, you know, more generally, medicinal as well. And you know, people swapping sort of information about plants or techniques for growing them, or, you know, just anything, you know, kind of people who are really old might remember inferigen.com It was, yeah, like that, but, but, you know, it's, it's gone the distance and still exists. I think it's, it's the second oldest psychoactive plant forum still kind of in existence. You know, it

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  9:21  
kind of reminds me of Arrowhead, even though it's not technically a psychoactive plant for it's more of a substance and journey and information resource for people on Trip Reports, but, but it makes me think about in terms of like, the age and like you make me think a lot about how The evolution of psychedelics and plant medicine and conversations about them and experiences about them. But how, but how did that get you interested in being more proactive in this space? You were the head of the Australian psychedelic society. Maybe you could talk about that piece of the journey. How

Dr. Samuel Douglas  9:58  
did I get. To that? Well, how did I get to that? But through, through, largely through my contacts that I had made through being on this forum. Because I just, you know, before I'd leave it for you know, you know, and move on to more recent things. People who have been on that, from the alumni of that forum going way back, they're everywhere. They are. They are. If there's someone who's high profile in psychedelics in Australia, there's, you know, not 100% chance that they were a member of this forum at some time, but, but it's, it's pretty high so through, through people I knew through that forum, when I moved to Melbourne a few years ago, I had heard about the psychedelic society that that Nick Wallace was setting up. And I, you know, went to and they were running. It was a mushroom day, a mushroom festival. I went there and, you know, went up to their stall and introduced myself to the people there, many of whom I actually had talked to online previously, just hadn't met them in real life. And we got talking, and after, you know, half an hour later, they'd convinced me to volunteer to help them, to help them write, get trapped. Well, at that time, you know, I'd spent a lot of time through the 2000s you know, spent a lot of time through the 2000s writing, you know, anytime there was a government, you know, inquiry, or, you know, there was some, some there was a time when I could submit something to a government or a Senate inquiry about that was relevant to psychedelics or, you know, or plant medicine, I'd write something and submit it. So I'd been doing that just myself for a while and and they lured me in with, you know, the offer of being able to spend more, you know, spend some time and get some support, helping them write submissions for government, you know, inquiries and around law reform. So that's how I got into it. So, you know, I did that a year later. I was on the National Committee for the psychedelic society. The year after that, I was vice president. And then the year after that, I was, you know, so for 2021 to 2023 I was president of the psychedelic society, you know, maybe because no one else wanted to do

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  12:21  
it, but you're being too humble, my dear friend, now, because only you don't get put into that position without having a good expertise, knowledge and well, and in my case, I would argue that you have a good ethics,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  12:34  
yeah. So you know that is that kind of progression through, that, you know, at the same time that this was happening, this is kind of a weird progression, because it sort of progressed through, you know, as COVID unfolded in Melbourne, which was a pretty wild time. So, you know, the vast bulk of my presidency and vice presidency and presidency was conducted from my computer at home because, you know, we were still trying to do things and keep everything running under, under, you know, some sort of reasonably restrictive lockdown conditions, which was challenging for everyone. So that was, you know, that was an interesting, interesting time. And, yeah, that at the same time as that was happening, I'd started doing some work, writing some some information and sort of education pieces for websites like third wave. Because outside of psychedelics, in my professional life.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  13:42  
Yeah, tell us about about your professional life. You may not think what you've already been sharing that you actually have a PhD in Philosophy focused on epistemology. Well,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  13:53  
was more, more philosophy of language, but you know, we're going to split hairs about what you know anyway, it's a PhD in philosophy.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  14:01  
We both have degrees in splitting yeah and asking questions.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  14:05  
Yeah, paged in philosophy, it's not, you know, as directly on focused on ethics as say yours was. But I through, really, from about 2005 to a couple of years ago, I worked teaching philosophy and ethics, predominantly for the University of Newcastle, both on campus and remotely. And while this wasn't, you know, permanent or secure work, it was steady and, you know, kept a roof over our heads was, you know, so, you know, during the pandemic, all the international students got sent home, which meant we lost about 30% of our students at Newcastle, which meant that all the staff who weren't securely employed, and honestly some who were found themselves out of work. So when I was. Was actively looking for something, anything that I could do to actually just keep some money coming in. It was really timely that at that time, Paul Austin and his team at third wave were looking for people to write stuff for them, and were willing to pay people to do it. So that's how I ended up doing that. And these things just kind of synergistically combined, because as I was volunteering in a more high profile way and writing, people would kind of sit, see an article on the look me up, and they'd see what I was doing, and it kind of grew from from there. That's That's how I got into being more actively involved in psychedelics in a more high profile, public way that I never really, you know, if you went back, you know, you know, 10 years and said, Oh, look, you'll, you'll, this won't just be a hobby, this one, you know, or kind of a personal obsession, this will be a thing that you'll do publicly, yeah, and, you know, and professionally, I would have said, don't be ridiculous, You know. So yeah, but here

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  16:00  
you are, yeah, and now, now working in the end, and, well, maybe we could tell part of our own history. But before we do, I do. I am glad that you brought up about your writing and and your work, working on people's training and workshops and and even working on, like editing, for instance, books like the people may be familiar with, like psychedelic justice and and doing a lot of of your own Not, not not long like trying to think of like, how do I express this? You are, you are known for expressing your views and and I personally appreciate that you express your views. Not everyone appreciates expression of ideas and perspectives and and and maybe that that naturally inclines you to do more ethics work in this space, but, but maybe you could talk a little bit about how did did did writing and showing up in community in this particular way, and doing some ethics work, you know, get you interested in being a part of a community like epic.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  17:14  
I think it was, I think it was probably more my time with psychedelic society, than than writing. That really drew me into to working with Epic. One of the things that was really that's interesting is that when you're in a leadership position in a community organization like the psychedelic society, or any psychedelic society, but particularly one like the Australian Psychological Society, which is national and has, you know, multiple chapters around in basically every capital city you know, sort of the core team is only, you know, sort of a bit over a dozen people. But below that, I will add that we're all volunteers. None of us are paid, but each chapter, then has, you know, you know, multiple, sometimes dozens of volunteers themselves. You actually have quite a wide net of people, and the information just kind of comes up the chain. And wasn't long even just as vice president, just starting to, you just start to hear things, you know, sort of the whispers and rumors. Start of things that happen, start coming up the grapevine. And you know, a lot of them weren't particularly good, you know, there was, there was these sort of stories around everything from just, you know, just poor, to you know, inadvertently, you know poor, you know facilitation, but just because someone doesn't know what they're doing, to really actively predatory practices and incidents and you know, and a lot of stuff in between, just a whole litany of things, predominantly from from underground, but not, but not solely from people who were underground practitioners. So all this, all this stuff, had started to filter up, and this really wrapped up. And this is kind of a, this was a lesson for me. You know, when I was vice president, I thought I knew everything that was or a lot of what was happening, because, you know, the Whisper network just kind of feeds up into the into that position, or it certainly did. I think, you know, it still does. And so this is happening. And so some of us were starting to think about these things you know, what will you know and how we could do something about them. And at sort of the similar time that I had then taken over as president from Meredith Hartley, was that antonica hobo who. Who, you know, yes, who's also, also one of the founding members of epic she'd taken over as Vice President. As a side note, antonika is now president of the psychedelic society. And one of the things that was really obvious is that the kind of things that I heard and the kind of things that antonika heard were actually quite different. And it was a real lesson in that things that people will tell me because I'm a man, and things that would tell people will tell antonika Because she's a woman, is very different. So kind of people who I would kind of, you know, it'd be people who my sources would say, you know, like this person's, you know, kind of a tool, but, but essentially, you know, harmless, the same, well, not necessarily the same sources, the thing, the image, the picture that would come through to antonika from, from the community, would be quite different, you Know, for, for, you know that, for the same people. So it was kind of a was, it was a real lesson in for me, in going, Well, look, don't assume that everyone is kind of telling you everything, because, you know, they're not necessarily comfortable. So you know all of this stuff was happening, and is around this time when we're starting to really hear things that I'd connected with, with our friend chi, and through the big online communities and big online, sort of international psychedelic professionals chats that were both part of is how we met and became and started talking, you know, sort of went, Oh, ethics. I talk about ethics. You talk about ethics too, you know, let's talk about ethics and and it sort of grew from there, because, but one of the things that was really, again, this is a sort of a turning point, was, I mean, Angelica and I, we already heard that. We already knew what was happening in Australia. We were hearing the things that were happening closer to home. Then we joined this international community, and then we hear the same story, like, exactly the same stories, exactly the same stories from people in Europe and and throughout, you know, North America and South America and everywhere, like, it's the same same pattern, same patterns of behavior and the same patterns of harm just happening everywhere. And I think that was for a lot of us who were involved and still involved in ethic. I think that was one of the real sort of moments of crystallization for me. But I think for a lot of us, when we went these same patterns of behavior, these same patterns of harm occurring, really everywhere, basically everywhere that that you know, people attacking soccer, likes, these patterns of harm just seem to pop up. So I think that that, for me, really crystallized my, my desire to kind of to be involved and to do something

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  22:58  
I love, that you brought up in the beginning part of this the experience that you had, you know, as a male bodied, male bodied identifying person, of how people were bringing up experiences of harm to you and and, or about people who you said, like worked quote, unquote tool, or like people who Maybe not acting appropriately, but they weren't seen as maybe even abusive even. But then the same sort of, and don't let me put words into your mouth anyway, shape or form, but, but when antonika was hearing the same exact stories about the same sort of people, you're getting a totally different perspective. And that how that shifted your mindset around what, what is actually happening, what information you are actually receiving, and what it takes for people to feel safe and supported and sharing that information, I just love that you, you highlighted that,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  23:58  
yeah, yeah, it's 100% of thing. And was, is that it was really humbling for me, because, you know, I'm, you know, I really like to think I was, you know, across everything, but I wasn't

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  24:09  
well, I mean, you know, there's some things about our identities. I mean, we can, we can talk about different things about identities, like we're both white, presenting and and Caucasian, right? And there will be who won't feel comfortable coming to us because of that identity or that culture, right or but there could be other things that make us approachable, right? Me for maybe women's things, and you for maybe for male things, or you for Australia. Me for I'll joke. I'll joking with, say, California. Or you have Redwood questions. I don't know if there's any. I don't think there's Redwoods in Australia. Now I'm having deep plant questions, but

Dr. Samuel Douglas  24:45  
there are a few, and I can tell you where, but, but to

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  24:51  
be focused, yeah, but I what I love about you bringing this up and and sharing this in terms of your experience is. What would you tell other men who do, who either work in plant medicine or psychedelics or who's just like an average person who who may get approached by someone and the scene is like maybe a safer person? What kind of advice could you give them and helping to talk to someone who may be trying to express that they've experienced harm.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  25:29  
I think it's just to really, I think, you know, the the, I mean, part of it's the basics of, you know, basics of counseling, be attentive, be empathetic, don't be judgmental. But also, you know, be open minded. There's, you know, there's no like this is someone, if someone has started to tell you something like this, and it might be subtle, because they're just trying. They're still as you're talking. They're trying to work out if you're a safe person to talk to. This is not the time to interject and say, Oh, well, such and such. You know, I'd never heard anything bad about them or so and so's it. You know, seems okay, because, you know, you need to realize that maybe you know you don't know everything about that. I think, yeah, look, it's just, it's a thing where you just have to be and, you know, don't make any promises, you know some, oh, you know, don't promise to do anything. Because sometimes people don't want, not necessarily want you to do something. They don't want you to fix things that you know these people, you know people, and especially if it's it's, well, other men, but especially if it's if it's women, they don't want you to go out and save them, or any you know, idiotic stuff like that. Sometimes people just want you to listen and nod and say, Yes, wow, that's really awful. I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yeah, um, that's it. There's a lot of stuff around this, but, but it's just, I mean, and that's harder to do, I say it's not rocket science. I want to say it's not rocket science, but sometimes that's harder to do than you think, because, you know, if it triggers that feeling of injustice, yeah, right, exactly you. You can be like, well, I need to do something. Or, you know, you know, worst part is if you feel, if you're someone who has is both empathetic and has a strong sense of justice this, you can feel like, let's say you I, in the in the past, have felt like I should rush out and I should, I should do something, either, you know, to help someone, when it's not the kind of help that they're really requesting, nor is it The kind of help that I can give because oftentimes these are complicated things. So someone might be telling you something, but it's also the case that they're, they have, they're in the midst of some pretty complex mental health stuff, right? Exactly which you know you may or may not. Yeah, you might not be qualified to help them deal with that. Yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  28:22  
scope of practice really important, right? Neither of us are trained counselors,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  28:26  
right? But also, also, if you you know, it's even if you are, it's a boundary thing, because, and this is again, lessons that from my time with the psychedelic society, is having people reach out. And sometimes it's, sometimes it's about something like that. Sometimes it's just people reaching out. And I know this is kind of branching off a bit, sometimes it's just people reaching out to say, you know, I'm in the midst of some really, you know, heavy mental health stuff, and, and, and, you know, you need to know whether you're, especially if you're in a, you know, kind of an official volunteering position. But even if you're not, and it's just, you know, a conversation with someone you know, or someone you don't know, need to to, I think it's good to have a certain boundary in place where you go. This is something that, this is something, this is not something I can or should, right, be helping you with, because, because, you know, I'm not a therapist, or even if I am a therapist, I'm not your therapist, and we are not in that contractually defined, you know, therapist client relationship. And so it's kind of, you know, one of the things that I think, too, is, if you have a lot of these conversations, I think you need to learn a sense of your own boundaries and go, right. This is, you know, you know, this is what's happening to you. I'm really sorry this is happening to you. Uh, you I'm not your therapist. You need to, you know, and this is not to stop, you know, helping people, or stop talking to them, or stop supporting them, but to realize that you can't do everything. And if you find yourself talking to someone at the hangar, you know, I mean, I have had situations where, luckily, really luckily, because of how tiny the community is here, I knew I was able to, you know, someone basically told me who, which, who their mental health care provider was, and and that there was someone I knew, thank goodness. And I was able to bring the practice and go and go. You know, there's some, you know, I shouldn't have gotten this far in this conversation. Yes, I know I shouldn't have got this far in this conversation, but there's some really heavy stuff going down with this person. So, you know, I know you can't tell me anything, but you know you need to know this. And you know, but if I didn't have that information, like, yeah, so it's just, it becomes, it's a really, it's a really complex area, and it's a complex area to navigate when you're in it, and you're having a lot of feelings, and you're right, particularly if you're like me, highly strong, and things are happening, and they can be happening quite fast, and they're bad, and you need to do something

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  31:26  
well. And I love that you bring this up, because a lot of times people aren't as aware of what it takes to what we often call holding space for these conversations, even when you're not doing therapy or medical advice or doing crisis counseling, that just being in relationship, these issues come up around mental health, and needing to know what what to do, how to handle it, how to empower people ethically, is really essential.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  31:58  
I think so. Look honestly, I think anyone who's heavily in, anyone who is in involved with psychedelics or psychedelic communities, I think everyone should have, at least you know, some basic first aid, Mental Health First Aid kind of type of of training or develop those, those skills, so that you know, you know you can. This is not to say you can't help people, so you can't support people, but knowing when you need to, need to have a sense of your own limits. And this was the thing that I learned over a long time of talking to people, just have conversations with people, particularly online, that were just really out there, really, out there conversations and and, you know, the, you know, arrogance that I thought sometimes that I could just because, you know, I'm a philosopher and I'm rational, I know about this stuff. We can just, we can just do a bit of, you know, logical thinking, and you'll be fine. They weren't, because you can't just do a bit of when you know, there are some places that people get in you can't just knock out a bit of homespun CBT and they'll be okay.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  33:13  
Behavioral Therapy, right? Think their way out of the box that they put them. That's right.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  33:17  
There is a lot of stuff. In fact, most stuff, if I'm honest, in my opinion, around, you know, around psychedelics and, you know, and people in these positions, yeah, it's just this, this approach, you know, where you just have a bit of a logical chat, and you show them where what they're thinking isn't accurate. No, this isn't, this isn't going to cut it, although,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  33:39  
although sometimes it might help in other parts of the process, right, just to press that a little bit like maybe it would help in the preparation phase or in the integration phase a little bit, but, but not maybe when they're having a, you know, because you're mentioning everyone having some basic skills around, you know, that sort of mental health first aid. And maybe this could bring us to some of the ideas we talk about in psychedelic source, about what kind of resources or sources or support would you recommend people have, and what would be, where would be some place you would tell people to look or what are some of the sort of trainings or or piece of information, if people wanted to have some basic, you know, Mental Health First Aid sort of work, what? What would you tell people to do,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  34:24  
look in terms of sources for good information and support? I think in Australia, I'd say that the first, your first port of call would always be the Australian psychedelic society. We have a lot of good information on the website. Which we can, we can, we can put that up later, and you can contact us through the website. It you know the email is not quite monitored around the clock, but we will always get back to people and either through people who are part of our volunteer network or people we know we can at least point. People in the right direction again, because it's such a tighter community where we're well acquainted with, you know, for example, you know most of the people who offer, you know most of the psychologists who offer. We know, sort of a skilled and integration issues, for example. Or, you know, we know, you know, I can tell you, you know, or we could tell you who might be a good fit if, if for someone who's, you know, experiencing kind of, really like, sort of wild somatic symptoms after psychedelic experience, or something like that,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  35:36  
to do, it's like, like, connect, connect with your local community. Psychedelic community, yeah, who often have resources, information, tools or on their website or through conversation with them, that that that relationship of support, which is part of the reason why, you know, I love the conversations I'm able to have here, is helping to highlight some of those community resources as it were, but, but I want to give people a sense of the picture. In Australia, you know, if, if someone knows nothing about the Australia, psychedelic environment, what? What you know? What kind of like top level things, what you know people don't know, let alone the basic botanicals in Australia, which is its own unique beast in more ways than one, but, but really about the sort of legal environment, what kind of what kind of things are different for you there than what maybe someone might experience in in North America or other parts of the world?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  36:41  
Yeah, well, I think, look, a lot of it is similar. I think what's important for people is to not, not accept, particularly when you're new to it, and you're new to these communities, and you may not have a lot of points of contact. Is to not is to approach, I think, all of it with some healthy skepticism, and not approach it with just accepting what the first person you know that you meet is involved in psychedelics tells you meet. Yeah, not the first person you meet, or the first person that you that you meet, or the first person you get make contact with who says, yes, you can come and do a ceremony with me. Because a lot of these people are great, you know, and some of them might not be. So I think it's, it's just to really like and that the community is broad. The community is not just. The community is not just, you know, the gaggle of followers or fans that a particular person has. It's bigger than than that. I think the things that are different between here, or things that are notable for Australia is that, despite the ability for psychiatrists to prescribe uh psilocybin from from magic mushrooms or MDMA, you know, for very limited particular circumstances, despite that ability about

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  38:17  
that, because in general, like Australia, I would say, at least from my perspective, is very strict

Dr. Samuel Douglas  38:23  
in the whole Well, this is the thing it is. It is extremely strict, and it is more strict than than most of the US. Important differences would be that things that people in the US might take for granted, that you can, you know, that aren't legally problematic, or less legally problematic, like, you know, aminator mushrooms, for example, super late recently had

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  38:43  
a shift in the United States policy, but I'll give a different example, kratom, I know last subject was still illegal in Australia, very accessible here. Yep,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  38:58  
Savior, divana, Sage Savio or yep, yep, yep, yep, ultra super legal here. I mean, I genuinely doubt most, but yeah, yeah, I don't think most police officers here could identify it, but nonetheless, you know, it's, you know, things like that, there are more things are illegal here than not otherwise. Trading spores, for example, is illegal legal here, not because they, well, it's the legality of why they're illegal is complicated. But no, you

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  39:34  
don't have to go into general. I think it's worthwhile saying that spores like like often you can do sport prints and things like that. And then I see for study, and you can have like a even, like a pass, saying that you you are a researcher, and you get certain exceptions, but, yeah,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  39:48  
if you're not a researcher here in Australia, you know, you really ought not to, you know, be be found in possession of those things so stuff like that. I think it's, I think. Think the thing is, is important that what we saw here was a bit of confusion about what was legal or not on the basis of the changes in what was legal in therapy here. Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:12  
So why don't you explain briefly what, what did change? You know what? What is accessible? Because it sounds like at least my perception now, and in full disclosure, I do do advising for a map, which we'll probably hear about, but separately, conversation, which is based in Australia, is what are the general changes that have done and and why is there the confusion? So the

Dr. Samuel Douglas  40:36  
general changes were that the there had been a long running push to change how psilocybin and or psilocybin, however you want to pronounce it, and NDMA, were scheduled as as essentially as poisons or as illegal drugs. There'd been a long running push to change how they were scheduled, so that, so that medical practitioners, so called psychiatrists specifically could use them in psychedelic assisted therapy. And this had gone backwards and forwards for a long time, and through, you know, supported by a lot of the community, including the the the psychedelic society here, but I think primarily spearheaded by mind medicine Australia has led this, really, you know, sort of concerted push to change this, this scheduling, and after a lot of toing and froing and some sort of misfires and missteps eventually got up to the point where Therapeutic Goods Administration here had agreed that psychiatrists, if they jump through all these regulatory hoops, can prescribe, can basically prescribe and run psilocybin assisted therapy for people with treatment resisted resistant depression, or MDMA assisted therapy for people with treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder. The circumstances under which they can do this without getting into it, they're really restrictive. There's a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of forms. It's not, technically, we do this weird regulatory thing here where we have approved unapproved medications, you know, it's this weird kind of bureaucratic thing where it's not approved,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  42:30  
you're you're not an approved medication, but it's

Dr. Samuel Douglas  42:33  
like, yeah, so we're going to let you do this, but we don't approve, you know, but it's basically, there's a lot of paperwork. The therapists have to get a human research committee, you know, like an IRB, like an institutional review board type, basically, their treatment protocol has to be externally reviewed by an ethics or review board to say that it's, it's right, that's part of the process they go through. So it's, it's quite involved,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  43:04  
so significant barriers. It's not like you can go to your average and psychotherapist. I'm alone. Other barriers around training and education, yeah,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  43:12  
that's, that's, right, there's not, there's not that many psychiatrists in Australia, full stop. And look, I don't have current figures, but you know, as of mid last or late last year, someone, I was a journalist I knew, had done a Freedom of Information request on this. So we there might be a dozen people psychiatrists around the country who have gone through the process of being able to be approved prescribers. And so yes, if you can find one of these psychiatrists, and if you can pony up the money, which is considerable, as I might add, because none of this is covered by insurance or or, you know, sort of the the government funded health care here, so you're just paying for all of this, and it costs a lot. So it's, you know, there's the restriction, there's not many people doing it. There's the further restriction that the lowest I have heard for a course of treatment, you know, including sort of preparation, a dosing session integration, you'd be very lucky to see much change from $15,000 for that. Yeah, so it's, that's Australian money. So, so maybe, you know, you could probably, if you had $10,000 US, you might be able to get, you might be able to get a full course of treatment for depression or PTSD with, you know, maybe, you know, sort of up to three dosing sessions for that amount. So that's the situation. That is what has changed. Nothing else has changed, the the, you know, the street versions, the real. Versions of, you know, the more commonly you know, sort of accessible versions of these, these substances, I you know, mushrooms that grow in the bush or in fields, or you know that, that pill you bought off that guy the music festival, these still remain super illegal in basically all but well, they're still super illegal in every state and territory. We have, one territory, the Australian capital, territory, where they are at least personal amounts are, in theory, decriminalized. But even there, the amounts that are decriminalized, the personal position amounts tiny, yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  45:37  
like I said, amount, or is it what kind of dose look

Dr. Samuel Douglas  45:41  
it's just it's so tedious to get into it. But suffice

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  45:45  
to say that the legal avenues that are available in Australia are cost prohibitive, are administratively prohibitive, and they're also limited to psilocybin and MDMA, although that But strangely, like, that's not, you know, right? Like, for instance, United States, like has no legal access for suicide, but EMA, with the exception of like Oregon and some new Colorado rules, possibly, again, that's state by state, not federal and and and, and all these other challenges around training and education. So most people, if they want to work with these substances for therapeutic reasons, are not going to have access. Yeah,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  46:29  
yeah, that's, that's it. And I think it's, you know, even if you could find someone trying to, you know, finding that the money is is something. And, yeah, it's a, it's sort of an unfolding process. But when that are rolled out, we did notice there was a real uptick in people contacting the psychedelic society about it. And there was a sense of confusion, but also a sense of cynicism. Because I think this is a thing that by anyone, particularly anyone who's been involved with, you know, the cannabis communities here, yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  46:59  
what's, what's cannabis like in Australia? What's, what's that atmosphere like? Sorry, from the top, is there legal access for cannabis? There

Dr. Samuel Douglas  47:11  
is, there is legal, there is legal medicinal access for cannabis. If you, if you can get, and that's relatively easy. It's not cheap, but it's easy. You can, you know, find someone, most of them will do, even do tele consults, you know, over the over the phone or over a video call. And

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  47:32  
do you need a permit or, like, what are sort of the sort of process for people? They take

Dr. Samuel Douglas  47:36  
care of most of the paperwork. But you do need to have a doctor go, yes, you have some. There is something that I can prescribe you cannabis for and but once that, honestly, Once you clear that hurdle, they will sell you as much as you can possibly. Oh, my, okay, because,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  47:52  
no, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have access. I just saying, like, you know, I'm brought up, like, with my ethical concern sometimes about

Dr. Samuel Douglas  48:00  
like this. Is this a concern that has been people have expressed that the amount you know, that that some of these companies, they're more interested in just selling a lot of making a lot of money by selling, you know, as much cannabis to their patients as they can, maybe more more, maybe that's sort of given a bit more, you know, priority, rather than just how much should this person be prescribed? Anyway, that's so it is accessible. But however, again, this is, you know, cannabis is an approved, unapproved medicine. So you have all these kind of weird things about it, like you can be prescribed cannabis, but you know what? You obviously, you've got to make sure you carry around the little bottle that has your prescription on it, the police in some states get upset about it, because people then will do things like put their street cannabis in your prescription bottle, and then they can't tell the difference. And you know, it's awfully inconvenient also, but if you're prescribed it, even if you legally acquire it and you prescribe it, if you say, Let your prescription lapse, then that cannabis is magically transformed back into, you know, a schedule nine drug, and is suddenly legally and or, if you're you are prescribed cannabis and you give it to someone else, you know that's illegal. So it's, it is it kind of a weird administrative loophole, but in the end, like it is accessible medically, but, but there's been real, I think, an effort on both the part of the government and also of the cannabis growers to really Keep it that way so that, yeah, you because the cannabis companies, they're making a lot of money off that now, and they don't want the situation to change. And we have, recently, in the last year, had no we have Senate inquiries all the time here, but there was one. Recently, a Senate committee was inquiring about about cannabis. They. Had a term of reference about about the impact of decriminalization. And a number of cannabis growing companies and an organization that claimed to be like a representative body of cannabis companies wrote in to say that they thought decriminalization was a bad idea because it would affect their profits. So, you know, interesting.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  50:23  
I mean, that isn't like one of the number one arguments I hear, at least in the States, about against decriminalization. What's interesting to hear that in Australia and in relationship to cannabis? Now, I'm curious like, you know, we originally met online, on a signal international professionals community. That's what, at least it was. It's called, and we worked together doing administration and moderation. What would you say, like are some of the lessons you've learned from managing communities and supporting communities in the psychedelic space. I mean you, you obviously have had the experience with Australia, and you shared a little bit with the psychedelic society there and and I know that that relationship with with the signal professionals community is what we what we created and co founded epic from the ethical psychedelic international community. What would you say? What advice would you give someone who's trying to run an online community?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  51:30  
Look where to start. I think it's good luck.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  51:42  
I would also probably say, like, good luck, you know. But even there are really neat challenges like, and maybe, maybe I should go more direct like, so, you know, we will be having a conversation with with epic, and talk a little bit about epic as a community and what we're about and, and we do want to try and have, like, each of many of the co founders and some of the current volunteers and people who do work with us to talk about their work and and their relationship with ethical practice and psychedelics and consciousness. But I know that for me at least, that having the conversations are really important, and not just the written conversations, but also the spoken conversations. And you and I have have worked together on real ethical challenges in this space and and I know before there was epic, and even before we were really working together as admins on some of these, these signal communities we were, we would be called in to help support ethical things that were starting to go down on even other people's forums, or forums we happen to be on right and, and it's, and we would, you and I have often talked about, you know, how much hours, how much labor that would be unseen behind the scenes, just behind, you know, administration and running the groups and having these conversations or the or the support that that we would be doing. So I'd be curious to just hear from your perspective, because I know mine, I guess. But to share, like to give, to shed some light, right? Right? Like, you know, people don't see what, what, what? What does it look like to actually try and support ethical practice in the space, you know, and you don't even go outside of the online communities. But, like, what does that really look like? What? What? What are the real challenges and, and, why? Why do we have these certain challenges?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  53:38  
I think, you know, well, look even just in all spaces, I think in the online space in particular, I would say to people, it's unless you have experience in this before it's going to be more work than you think. It's the amount of hours that goes into it is just enormous. With through our work that we've done together, and things that we've volunteered our time for, but also the things that I've helped coordinate through the psychedelic society, they're just our biggest, some of our biggest, sort of amount of time that we spend on Things overall as an organization is in, you know, moderation of online spaces. It's just the amount of work is phenomenal, and as soon, the bigger they get, it becomes, you know, that really is around the clock thing. So I think it's, it's really, you know, you need, you know, online spaces. I think that individuals do, that I think that teams do. They're not a thing that you can do by yourself. And it's just it's everything from, you know, in the online settings, it's everything from ensuring people don't say things that are, you know, wildly illegal, because sometimes, depending on the space you try. Trying to run that's not appropriate, even though, even if you don't ethically disagree with what they're saying, there's some things that, because of for various reasons, not every forum is appropriate to say every thing around psychedelics, but just the balance of holding that space and keeping that space, making that space as safe a space as possible for as many people as possible is also real. That's, that's a challenge online. And you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna keep everyone happy doing this. I think is, is the thing you should you need to get comfortable with that you know, and this isn't, this isn't. Sometimes it's, it's for really overtly, kind of obvious ethical reasons. But sometimes, you know, some people just their their external manifestation of their personalities and their energy is sometimes just a lot for a space and and you just don't even, you know, there's a lot of things you know that can cope No, but

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  56:08  
I'll check one of the things. Let me just take one of the things you mentioned, which is, like, don't do it alone, yes. And I know that's definitely much about what epic has done. And even when we were doing admins and other things, and even when we, you know, I'm sure, in Australia, psychedelic society and other places like, that common feature of what one of the things that's really supportive is working in relationship and community and and having others that you're able to talk with and have support from, not just in terms of, you know, how you come across. It like not talking to just the first person you meet, not just right, you talk to him still, but but also in terms of addressing issues and problems that come up, right? It's

Dr. Samuel Douglas  56:50  
a team thing. But I think the all of these things, I think are things that are best done in community. And it was people had asked me, I think this is the similar thing is that people you've had over the years that asked me, oh, what do you think's the most What do you think's the most important thing for harm reduction? For example, that's a question I get asked a bit and I would, and my answer is always, community.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  57:19  
I love that answer. Of course I'm gonna love that answer. I'll give you another though, because I know today, because I happen to pay attention to what you post, not all the time, but sometimes, and I know someone, maybe I shouldn't say, the social platform it was on was asking, what's the biggest debate in this space right now, in the psychospace, and I saw your two answers, which I almost commented on, mainly because I'm like, well, that's not a debate, Sam, that's, those are statements of fact, right? And I, and if I recall correctly, you said that one is that, that we're gonna, we're gonna continue to have underground use, and that's gonna continue happening, right? That that, that that's not really, I mean, some ways, I'm like, into my mind that's not really up for debate, that's just happening, and people need to accept that. And what was the second thing

Dr. Samuel Douglas  58:12  
I'm gonna have to go back and look now, because I can't actually remember. This was, this was, you know, minutes ago. The other one was that was that, as I said, a lot of people's depression and anxiety are understandable or even normal reactions to their situation or their life or their context or just what's happening in the world. So talking about fixing them is the wrong frame, but even talking about healing that maybe that's not quite right? Because, you know, you're having a never, my thought was, it's like everything's terrible, or it might be, and you're having a normal reaction to everything being terrible. Well, like what talking about, you know, in talking about healing, you you're not, you don't, you don't need healing. What you need is for things to not be terrible,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  59:03  
you know, and I'm not gonna bring it up, because, again, I don't feel to be I feel it's like a fact, right? But we can make a debate. We can make anything debate. It's

Dr. Samuel Douglas  59:12  
not an explicit debate, but it is counter to the idea that that, you know, that's pretty prevalent in psychology or psychiatry and psychotherapy and and, and even still embedded in psychedelic assisted therapy, that there's something you know, something you know, is that, like that, the way that this you know can or should be addressed is, is you are the one who needs to change, or you know that it's both the most, that it's both ethical and right, but also that it's the most you know efficacious way to stop you feeling this way is to change you, rather than the situation, the environment. Things in your environment that are making you feel that way. And so it's kind of, it's obvious, but it's quite a deep, philosophical thing that's in No,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:00:07  
I totally agree with you, really, really, what it is is like, are you trying to treat a mental health condition, or are you trying to treat the human condition? Yeah,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:00:18  
and I think this is a thing. I have this discussion a lot with my partner because, you know, she's a psychology graduate, and even though she, she, you know, decided to not practice the dark art. But of that, yes, yes for any psychologists out there. Well, you know, email me if you want. I don't care. Upset by that, but the, but the idea that, you know, there's lots of critiques of, if you look, they're not talked about, but the critiques of psychology and psychiatry and and, you know, is the problem. You know, are you? Are you high fun? You high for, you know? What do you what's it mean to say that someone's high functioning? What does it mean to say that someone's, you know, that you're that you're, you know, healed or cured, or you know, or do you feel better? Or is it just that you went back to work so that you can be economically productive? Like these are not all the same things, and this is, and this is trying to get to the core of that, because a lot of this stuff that's underlying in psychology and psychiatry, we've just wholesale who that up into psychedelic assisted therapy. And this shouldn't be a huge surprise, because it's being done by, you know, psychologists and psychiatrists, just with the psychedelics on top. But it's that, you know, that that thing where we think, Well, look, is, you know, you're having a normal there's nothing wrong with your reaction. You might want, you know, and it's not to say that you're not going to help people feel differently when they're not feeling good or but it's the frame that you put around that you know, maybe, maybe you know what you need to feel better is to is to let go of trying to save the world and just work on making the world better where you are or or to to at least be working towards that. I didn't stop my idea. That's, that's I, you know, Natalie Osborne, who's a, who's a human geographer of all things, wrote a great paper about that a few years back, but it's Yeah, so it's

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:02:23  
changing the we can also push this a bit, like, now, let me challenge it, since, you know, we are good friends, and we can, we can, we can jib a little bit, you know, is, you know, well, one could argue that, like, yes, definitely. Sometimes people are engaging in psychedelic experiences to bypass things that are actually a part of the human experience, that are normal, like, you know, stress life, stress, a death in the family, like things that would be, you know, a normal part of experience, that are important for our lived experience as being human and having life. But another argument you can make is like, well, can't we make our human experience better in relationship with with psychedelics and plant medicine? Should we be having a different orientation to our own human experience? Yeah, and think differently. You know, not, not that we should be bypassing certain feelings or certain experiences. But, and maybe this just opens up the general question of, like, what does it mean to be in right relationship to plant medicine, sex cells, we started this story talking about you and the book and and learning about plants and the beginning of your journey, and, and we're now at the part where we're talking about, you know, where you are now in relationship, and, and, what, what? What is the right relationship now? So if you could, if you could leave our people with, you know, sort of a takeaway message on, on, what, at least for you, what does it be to be in right relationship? Or how do you make decisions around psychedelic you know, or plant medicines for you, what would you tell people?

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:04:13  
Look, I don't know that. I have a short answer. I think there's you can still acknowledge things that are going on with your life without running from them and and, but you know, you can change the context of things. You can change, or you can realize things as one of you know, again, not my idea, a friend who is really, really, I think, smart and a lot, lot more wise than than I am. We are having a discussion, a three way discussion between me and him and another one of my psychologic society colleagues a while back. And, you know, around around bypassing and sort of similar topics. And and my friend said, Well, you know, it's not bypassing if I realize that my pain isn't the center of. Who I am, yeah, and I think it's there is there's a lot of subtlety in, in what you can realize about yourself without necessarily running from from something, yeah, or trying to bypass something. But there's also a lot of

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:05:20  
what counts as so for you, what would count for bypassing? Like, if I was doing something like, what could I be doing that? You say, Oh, Sandra, you're bypassing. Here's

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:05:30  
the thing is that kept really the trouble with bypassing is that can be just about anything. I think the thing that

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:05:39  
people talk about spiritual bypass. Oh, yeah, but it can be,

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:05:43  
it's looking to be really obvious things, like an example that I've used in the past is, is part of it is your, is your intention with things, even if the outcomes are the same, like, if you, if you microdose, because it helps you be more creative, you know, or works for you in whatever way. If it works for you, great. And you can, you know, do it, you know, in a way that's sort of safe, is sustainable, fantastic, where legal. But if you are micro dosing because you're in a terrible work situation, and you're under pressure and you're doing it so you can be more productive, so you can hit deadlines that would be impossible for you to hit if you didn't microdose. Well, that's it's kind of like it's kind of bypassing, you know, but also, but on the same token, it could be something like that, but it can be something but again, a great example from John Wellwood, who originally coined the term, is that really aggressive saying this came out of the Buddhist his observations of the Buddhist community in California in the 70s and 80s. So really aggressive, proactive adherence to non attachment, that is also a form of bypassing, because you're pulling back from the human experience and running from it. Yeah, like you can, you know, you don't necessarily seek out attachment, and you'd be mindful of it, but you can't. You know, you're a human, you're situated, you're embodied. You're alive. You can't, you know, running from attachment, because it's always going to happen at least a bit that, too is a form of of bypassing. So I think it's like there isn't hard to say that this generalized thing, but it's when it starts to affect, you know, like a lot of things, you know, you don't notice it until it starts to affect your life and your work and all your relationships with the people around you, and then it's hard because you in the past, and I've not always realized why I've been doing things. I think to this day, I still don't always realize, why

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:07:54  
not shadow work? Right? Because you can't see it right? It's, it's, it's in the shadows, it's outside of your

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:08:01  
never obvious until after it's happened. You know

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:08:05  
that 2020, vision people talk about, but I love, I love this for a couple different you know reasons because, like, it gives you this sense of bypassing is not being a sort of one size fits all, like this act is 100% bypassing, but the same act may or may not be depending upon the circumstances in the situation. And even if you want to acknowledge that there are times when people are doing that, it may be challenging for them to see it, and community and relationship may be one way to do

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:08:33  
it is to do it. I think it's also important, you know, just to sort of to add a little bit is to not be is, you know, non judgment with all these things is really important, but to not be the sometimes, I think, like bypassing, but also a lot of trauma reactions, you know, because bypassing can be a trauma reaction, right? And as lots of things are, they're adaptive in the moment, and they're protective in the moment, and it's, you know, it shouldn't be hard on other people, and you shouldn't be hard on yourself. I'm going to just interject with myself and say these two things are linked. Because you're hard on other people, you're almost certainly hard on yourself and vice versa, like, you know, you sometimes, sometimes you're going to bypass, don't beat yourself up about it. Sometimes you're going to have, you know, a trauma reaction, which is not in the long term the most you know the best thing for you or for what you want to get out of your life, but you're having normal human reactions to sort of to pain or suffering or existential difficulty or whatever. And it's, you know, the process of, you know, beating yourself up about it does not make any of this any easier.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:09:51  
Yeah, I love that because it really has a compassionate approach, not just others, but to yourself. Yeah, well, well, thank you so much. Sam. Um, I know we can always talk forever and and I always appreciate you, and I'm so grateful that you took the time to talk on on the show, and I'm always grateful to have conversation with you and and I just at least want to add my own humble gratitude to you as my friend, that I wouldn't be able to do the work that I'm doing now, if it wasn't for your friendship, without having you in community relationship, without your support and and keeping me accountable too. So so thank you for for being my friend.

Dr. Samuel Douglas  1:10:32  
Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:10:37  
There's so much I could tell you about Dr Sam. Douglas Sam. I've known him for several years now. We've been through many trials and tribulations in the psychedelic and plant medicine community from oceans away. Him in Australia, me in the United States and California, and what we've learned from each other, what I've what I've grown in relationship through his support and relationship, what epic has been able to become, even right now in this moment, is very much a function of all the relationships and friendships and The work that is often behind the scenes, that that's not not visible and and I hope that by making some of these conversations more visible, more these relationships and connections and and supports, more seen that you can see not just the beauty of of that part of the work, but also have greater understanding that sometimes what sourcing means is to be sourced in ways that are are not as visible, that these connections, these relationships, whether we go through challenging experiences, whether we are there for each other or have have things that we need to really lean into each other in relationship, that all of it seen or unseen is the resource of community and relationship that makes for a better ethical practice. I'm not saying we're perfect. We're definitely not, but through even our imperfections, through the seen and the unseen, we we work together and our imperfection in community, and I hope you feel that you can build a community with us. Thank you for joining me on psychedelic source. If you found value in today's episode, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share with others in our community. And if you're a psychedelic practitioner, therapist or coach looking to identify blind spots in your practice or determine next steps for moving it forward, take the first step by visiting psychedelic Source podcast.com Until next time, remember, start low, go slow and stay connected to your source. You