Cindy Blackman Santana

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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: What's going on, y'all? This is another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I'm your host Quest Love. We're here with Team Supreme Laya. Hello, Hi, how are you this morning?

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited because two of my favorite drummers of all time are on the same call. It's really kind of mind blowing. I'm losing my ship. Thank you all.

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Speaker 2: I'm Pep Bill. How are you from your weekend excursion? Yeah, I'm good.

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Speaker 4: I'm slick to be here too. I always feel like the episodes where we get like real drummer heavy are always kind of fun to watch. You sort of like half sweat, half not sweat.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing is great.

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Speaker 4: There's like lots of emulation, lots of it's awesome because like we do with like real heavy chopping drummers and like groove drummers, all kinds of drummers. I'm excited about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm into it. There you go? All right? Yeah, Well, as Bill has already cuge you guys, then we can call the Davy give the drummers some Yaho episode. Our guest today, for four plus decades, has been blown on my minds. Basically, it's only apropos that we say give the Drummer sum because it's so weird. That title has been such an important calling card for people of our craft, but I've yet to see anyone actually title their album give the Drummer some until now. As I said, for legendary decades of drumming behind some of the greatest acts of our time. I will say that the majority of the earth might know her via her tenure with Lenny Kravitz, but there's so much more. Even though I've known of her legend for all my professional life, we've never had a direct conversation, and it's time to break that ice. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the quest Love of Supreme, the one and only Cindy Blackman Santana. Thank you, what's going.

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Speaker 5: On so much? It's such an honor to be here with you. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 2: Were you located right now? What part of the world are you?

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Speaker 5: And doing great? And I'm in Las Vegas right now?

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're in Vegas?

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I just saw her. Tony Is that an AMP back there to Tony Williams Play or Die?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Oh, yes, I believe that's album.

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Speaker 3: That's an album album.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you reside in Vegas right now?

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Speaker 5: Or yes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, explain to me because you know, I literally like just got off the plane an hour ago from Los Angeles and that was the first time now even though there was an event happening. Of course, this taping is way after. But I was coming back from the Emmys, and I'm seeming to notice that La is getting rather uh empty, if you will, Everyone is relocating to Las Vegas. What is it about Vegas that I don't know? Because or am I only visiting the Times Square of Vegas not seeing the rest of Vegas? What is it about Vegas that's calling the professional world? Because that's pretty much where everyone's living now.

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Speaker 6: There's a lot going on in Las Vegas. I mean, it's definitely the Times Square. It's lights and glitz and glamour. But firstly, outside of Las Vegas, and we live like thirty minutes from there, from the Strip, it's very peaceful, it's very calm. I think that, you know, a big draw for a lot of people is that it's a hub, because you get people coming from all over the world, you know, to come to Las Vegas for you know, casinos and shows and whatever.

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Speaker 5: So you know, there's a big.

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Speaker 6: Chance to get a lot of exposure globally just by being here because of the amount of people in traffic and you know, the types of people that you're run into.

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Speaker 5: So for business, it's good for that. Also, the cost of living is a lot.

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Speaker 3: Lower, like significantly, right.

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Speaker 6: Yeahficantly lower, and so you know, if you want to have like, you know, some space and get a building and do something, it's much easier to do it here. So a lot of people are flocking here, and it's pretty amazing because you know it's I was thinking, you know, recently and you akin this to Los Angeles, the traffic is becoming like Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, is there a concern that Vegas will soon like the property values will go up? Like, well, the gentrification effect hit Vegas, like at first it was everyone's little secret and then everyone's moving there, So is there a concern that this is no longer like the little secret anymore? Or because even now I know that there's two major movie companies that are absolutely like setting up shop inside of Las Vegas. So for all intensive purposes, I would think that by twenty twenty eight, Vegas will pretty much just be Hollywood. So is there is there a concern that that is what it's going to turn to? Thus people will be like, all right, well let's let's go to Arizona. Now that Vegas has been.

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Speaker 3: Arizona is already a plan B for some people they call athletes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, Arizona is the athlete. So probably New Mexico.

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Speaker 3: Well, New Mexico, That's what I was just about to say. And Mayor during COVID, a lot of artists moved to New Mexico, right trip, And Cindy, did you know about that?

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Speaker 6: A lot of people are moving to New Mexico and things push out, you know, I mean I saw that happen in New York City because you know, you had Manhattan, which is a hub, and then you know, people started pushing out into Williamsburg and to Brooklyn, other parts of Brooklyn rather and other boroughs, and it just keeps pushing out and pushing out and pushing out.

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Speaker 5: And that's what's happening here. I mean, it's becoming a real.

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Speaker 6: Kind of collective space for some many people in so many different areas. You know, of business of arts, you know, so that's probably gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Are you in a Joshuita Tree kind of isolated place or is it the city.

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Speaker 6: We're not Joshua Tree, but almost, you know, I mean, because we're like, as I was saying, thirty minutes out from the strip. So you know, we're enough far enough away from that that we don't have to know about any of that if we don't want to, you know. And it's interesting because here there's a there's a community of people who want to help society, who want to help raise consciousness level. Because you think of Las Vegas as just this. I mean I used to, because I would just like you, you know, I would come in and show sick snow, see my hotel room.

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Speaker 5: Get on the bus or get on the plane and get out and that would be it.

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Speaker 6: And I'm like, oh, I don't like this because I don't like smoke, I don't like all that, you know, damblance. So for me, it's like, okay, let me do my show and get out of here. But living here, you see another aspect, and you see a whole other level of not only compassion but desire to really help people. You know, there's an organization called three Squares here, which feeds millions of people.

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Speaker 5: I think today they've fed over four million people, especially to children, like during the week and then on the weekends they give them backpacks of food to take home in case, you know, they need to eat.

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Speaker 6: There's another place called Cassadelus, and this minister and his wife, they started this kind of small little refuge for children because it's in an area that initially was very seedy area and the people that hung out in those areas they were doing what human beings doing they do.

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Speaker 5: They still were having children. A lot those children were either mentally physically neglected or just neglected because the parents just weren't there, you know, and so what's going to happen to those children? So these people opened up.

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Speaker 6: A space for them to It's not large enough for them to live there, but they can go there and get meals or just you know commune or you know, have a safe space.

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Speaker 5: To go to.

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Speaker 6: And you know, there are several places like that here, which is something that I didn't think I would see in Las ve Guess, but it's it's a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 5: So there are a lot of aspects here to this area.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime someone challenged me about, well, you know, next time you come to Vegas, come to Da Da Da Da dah. I'll see the rot it, you know, that sort of thing. And I'm like, all right, I'll do it. And then I fall into that trap of just staying in my hotel room until you get the not where it's time to go to sound check, and then you know.

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Speaker 3: It's probably a beautiful indigenous community there too, amir.

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Speaker 2: I'm for it, man, I'm looking forward to this.

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Speaker 5: Let us know when you want to explore. We got an area that you can come and check out.

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Speaker 2: Nice. Nice, Could you tell me what is your first musical memory in life?

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Speaker 5: My first musical memory is when I was in Ohio, which is where I'm from.

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Speaker 2: Yellow Springs.

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Speaker 5: Yellow Springs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I'll say that. You know Chappelle, he could talk anybody into anything, because that's the type of gift he has. But during the pandemic, those trips of Yellow Springs, you know, it was such a welcome relief to sort of the stress of what the pandemic was in twenty twenty. So there was half a second where I was considering getting a house in Yellow Springs. I'm still not against the idea. You know, I know that quality lives out there. I know Dave convinced a few people in this community to buy property out there and whatnot. So was it always a hippie friendly town since since the get or was that a recent development.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, it's always been that way.

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Speaker 6: It's always been a really cool little oasis in a very conservative state.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like those nine blocks exactly. Yeah, it's like a taste of heaven. Like oh, I was like I can get used to this. And then I took the wrong Yeah. Yeah, and I saw the wrong president. I was like right, yeah, I was like, uh no, let me, let me get back to this, the blue Blue section. Yeah. So what was your first musical memory there?

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Speaker 6: Well, there were a couple with my dad because he didn't play an instrument, but he had a collection of records because he liked jazz. So it was me sneaking into his collection and listening and hearing the drums and not knowing what that was because I was, you know, like three and four, but really liking what I heard and being drawn to that.

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Speaker 2: So you know, what were those records?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, he had a lot of Ama Jamal, He had some and that was probably one of his favorite.

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Speaker 5: He had Miles records, He had some Coltrane records. Those were his his like favorite three artists, you know, which was a great introduction for me. He had modern jazz quartet. You know.

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Speaker 6: He had a kind of a nice little niche of stuff, and so I would sneak in there and you know, listen to probably scratch some of the albums because I was too young to really you know, take care of him well. But yeah, that's probably my first and you know, maybe my second would would be taking a piano piano lesson with my grandmother who was a classical pianist, and hanging out with my uncle who was a musician as well.

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Speaker 2: Were drums the first weapon of choice for you or what was the first instrument that you gravitated towards.

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Speaker 5: Oh, definitely drums.

00:12:06
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I took a lesson on piano with my grandmother, But yeah, drums was always the thing that attracted me.

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Speaker 2: Were you encouraged to pursue it, because I know that around the early nineties, especially once you know this long after Gina Shock and you and Sheila sort of like forged the path. But there was a period when even when I was a kid in which teachers would actually kind of maybe not being aware of how toxic it was, but you know, they would actually say like, well, you know, wanted to do the drums, like that's a girl thing, and you know that, well yeah, I mean not that, not that explicit.

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Speaker 3: But I would have never thought that about the opposite.

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Speaker 2: I remember, like in third grade, like someone wanting to play the drums or whatever, and you know, kind of joke like you should want to do the drums, like you know you want to come as in like you should you want to come to the boys club, and that I think you plan in my head that like, oh, drums are just masculine only, which okay, is the opposite.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know what, I got lucky because my teachers didn't say that in school, and I played in whatever little bands I could play in in school, the speech band, concert man, the pio orchestra, the orchestra, I did the electronic music class, and I didn't.

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Speaker 6: Hear that from from those teachers. I didn't hear that from my immediate family at home. All I heard was that drums are loud, and they're expensive and we can't.

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Speaker 5: Afford them, and you know, you need a lot of you know, I didn't. I didn't hear the antagonistic stuff until I started going out and doing professional gigs. And and my fir professional gig was when I was thirteen. I remember I was playing with this kind of funk rock trio and we.

00:14:08
Speaker 6: Our first gig was in this bar. This was when we moved. We had already moved out of Ohio. We were living in Connecticut at that time, so now.

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Speaker 5: We're on the East coast and were playing in this bar. And I started to get these comments from older men who were in the in the bar, and they were like, you know, why are you doing this? This is this is not you shouldn't be doing this. You're a girl.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I started hearing stuff like that. It certainly affected me. You know, I was kind of like tearing up. Why would they say that to me? And so but you know what, I had a big there was a big lesson for.

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Speaker 5: Me because I went home and I.

00:14:44
Speaker 6: Reset my drums up in the basement and I started playing and I forgot all about it, and I said, oh, so what they.

00:14:53
Speaker 5: Think, Madam doesn't matter at all.

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Speaker 3: I got to ask, because it feels like you and Terry Lynn Carr are not that far in age group, So it seems like are things going parallel at the time, because you said at thirteen, she started around twelve.

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Speaker 2: Was there ever, Were you aware of each other or yeah.

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Speaker 5: Not at all. Actually, I was not aware of her until She's a little bit younger than me. But I wasn't aware of her until I went to Berkeley and I was sitting in the hallway waiting for my lesson with Lenny Nelson, and she was not a college age at this point.

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Speaker 6: Maybe she was in high school. I don't remember, but I know she wasn't in college. And in walks this gentleman with this young young lady. I don't think the mother was there. I think it was just her and her father. I think they were coming to see Lenny as well. And the father introduced me and he said I was a drummer, and you know, so that's how we first met.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's what's upped. Well, you mentioned Miles earlier. When I first became aware of you, I was like, well, she must be a Tony disciple because of your relationships to the symbols, you know, Tony Williams being one of the well, you know, I call this drum style of drumming beautifully violent. He's yes, his relationships to crashings is all this, Yeah, exactly Who was your north star in terms of like your drumming top five if you will, Like who'd you gravitate towards? Who were your favorite drummers?

00:16:33
Speaker 5: My favorite drummers were Art Laky, Max Roach, Owen Jones, Tony Williams, and.

00:16:42
Speaker 6: Then the Fifth at that point when I was like thirteen, the fifth kind of shifted around a little bit, but you know, those were certainly the top four. And then I started to come into knowing Ray Haines, and then you know, I was listen.

00:17:01
Speaker 2: And still still playing and looking like he's maybe sixty eight or something.

00:17:06
Speaker 3: My dad, I'm gonna tell y'all for my dad is the drummers well Sandy and he's friends with Roy and he's like, I don't know why y'all would take us so long to have Royal on And I'm like, I is he read it? Can?

00:17:15
Speaker 2: Yes, he's fluent, like I saw Roy for his ninety ninth birthday, like it I think in five months, I believe.

00:17:25
Speaker 5: I love It's incredible. Yeah, he's he's so amazing. Uncle Roy. He's he's got so much.

00:17:31
Speaker 6: I mean, he's just done so much in the music and you know, influenced so many people. It's interesting because, you know, when I first heard those drummers that I that I mentioned, I heard Elvin first, and I heard him before hearing Art Blakey, And as a child, I thought it was swapped around in my head because I.

00:17:55
Speaker 5: Thought, I thought that Blakey came from Elvin, you know. And as I was listening more and as I was as my social life was expanding to you know, other friends who were also listening, they were like no.

00:18:14
Speaker 6: And then I started studying when I'm like, oh, okay, and then I saw that both Elvin and Roy came from Art, but they just like this, they did two different things, you know with that triplet, because Elvin played the closed triplets and Whey played those open triplets, but they both came from him and just went into.

00:18:35
Speaker 5: Kind of different directions with that, you know.

00:18:38
Speaker 6: So that was amazing thing to me too, to really key in on that with those two drummers. And of course I call her Blakey everybody's daddy. Hid Yeah. Absolutely, I was really close with Art. He used to call me his daughter. I called him Papa, and you know I used to babysit for his children. So I was at the house all the time. And when I first met him, I had done a gig with two people introduced me to Art, and one was Evelyn Laky, his daughter. She was a singer and I was doing some gigs with her and she taped some of the gigs and she gave him a recording of one of the gigs that we did together. So it was through that avenue, and then it was also through Wallace Roni because Wallace started playing with him, and Wallace mentioned him to me and invited me to a record session that Art was doing, and so that he was doing with Art, and it was with this was two drummers.

00:19:44
Speaker 5: George Kawasaki I think his name was was.

00:19:46
Speaker 6: For a Japanese label, so it was George Kawasaki and the Jazz Messengers, And so I went to this session. I was hanging out and Art didn't even remember my name at that time. He just called me his redhead friend.

00:20:09
Speaker 2: Oftentimes, on this show, especially when we talk to musicians, if it's singers, usually the story is, you know, they're in a gospel only household and they occasionally had to sneak to listen to air quote secular music. But with jazz officionados, were you strictly just gravitated to jazz and jazz only or was anything pop having any effect on you or anything soul having an effect on you? Or was that just incidental background music for you and when you were like practicing your craft, it was only jazz music.

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Speaker 5: The first stuff was kind of all the pop stuff. In fact, I was going to beat the drummer with the Jackson five. In my head, I was the drummer that I was going to be the sixth Jackson? Are you kid? I was going to be that drummer.

00:21:01
Speaker 6: But you know, I was lucky because I have a senior sister who loved music. She was a singer at the time. In fact, she even sang with the Brides of Funkenstein. She had like two hundred records in her collection, everybody from James Brown to the Beatles to Coltrane, Miles Yes, and.

00:21:24
Speaker 5: So I would raid her collection. So I grew up hearing a whole bunch of stuff like and people say, well, how can you as a jazz drummer, I want to play pop or want to play rock or want to play with Lenny or I like that music. I grew up with that, you know. So for me, the first stuff that I was practicing heavily was actually not jazz. It was rock and pop stuff.

00:21:51
Speaker 6: And then I started to you know, a friend of mine who was an older drummer friend of our family, he said, you know, you really got to check out Max Roach, and so he wrote out this pattern on a piece of paper which was match playing a ride symbol pattern two and four of sock symbol. He was feathering the bass drum on all fours and playing triplets in the left hand.

00:22:11
Speaker 5: I was like, whoa.

00:22:14
Speaker 2: Versus stew four? Yes, I was the only one that had to go through that.

00:22:19
Speaker 3: Okay, should I ask that? Should I just leave this moment in between?

00:22:22
Speaker 2: Y'all? It's an exercise in which you can divide your brain, and most drum teaper teachers do this. So I was going to say, like in my era of drumming, well, it was the worst one. You go to this place and you see this drum set in the corner and it's sort of like, let me at it, let me add it, and the teacher be like no and then turns over there. It's like a practice pad. No, and then you gotta sit there and do put you know, your siny jump set over there. But he's like in the year you get to play on that. And so there's an exercise that can teach you how to do different polyrhythms and so in other words, there's this exercise where your foot is doing a four to four meter left right left right left, right, left right. So while you're doing that left right left, your hands are doing three one two two one two three, want two three, want two three, And it's it's teaching your limbs, your hands, and your feet to have yeah, yeah, and muscle memory also at the same time. So but I would have to do that for an hour. Literally, he would just read the paper. It's like, all right, go do you think for an hour? Literally left right right, right, right, right left left right left left right left left right left left, and your foot's doing right left, right, left right left right left right left at the same time. So it's allegedly supposed to make you a better drummer. House burning down. What five albums would you say, like, what albums define your childhood?

00:23:58
Speaker 5: They would be supreme, they would be four and more.

00:24:04
Speaker 2: M Miles Davis four more, Yes, Miles.

00:24:07
Speaker 5: Davis four more. And if I go back a little further, I'd have to say probably I used to listen to Chaka Khan and Rufus a lot. So which album what's the one would tell me something good on it? X Rufus Rax to Rufus.

00:24:23
Speaker 6: And there were a couple of Betty Davis albums that I used to listen to.

00:24:27
Speaker 5: All the time.

00:24:29
Speaker 2: You to Betty Davis at the time, and oh yeah.

00:24:32
Speaker 6: Because my sister, like I said, she was a singer and that was one of her favorites. So I was listening to Betty Davis all the time. I'm a huge Betty Davis fan, Love love Betty Davis.

00:24:42
Speaker 5: Yes, so there'll be a few. And then I used to listen to Sometown Power Records a lot.

00:24:52
Speaker 2: Dave all right, David.

00:24:54
Speaker 5: David Gebade used to listen to earth Wind and Fire a lot.

00:24:57
Speaker 6: Okay, I saw them live actually a little a little bit later, but you know, those were some of the records that I listened to. And of course I listened to every single Jackson Fire record, you know, when I was really young. Those were some of the records that I listened to in the very very very beginning.

00:25:16
Speaker 2: Right, Sure, when did you leave Yellow Springs?

00:25:19
Speaker 5: When I was eleven?

00:25:20
Speaker 2: Okay, where did you move?

00:25:22
Speaker 5: Connecticut? We moved to Bristol, Connecticut was the first place. And at that point I had had little toy drum.

00:25:30
Speaker 6: Sets, never a real drum set yet, you know, just getting these little kids that would justinege yeah, just break up in like a day or two, and then I have to beg for another one and have to wait until my parents would give me another one.

00:25:44
Speaker 5: And then when we moved to Connecticut, that's when I got my Eventually, that's when I got my first student model kit. But before that, when I didn't have a drum kit, I found a little friend who was a drummer, and I used to go to his house.

00:26:00
Speaker 6: He lived across the fence from us, and there was a hole in our fence, in the fence of separating these two neighborhoods, and so used to crawl under that fence and go to his house and we would put on records. Like he was really into David Garbaldi, so we would put on Tower Power records and we both plays.

00:26:17
Speaker 5: Yes, he played to.

00:26:21
Speaker 6: The song, and then I would play to the song and then you know, we would go and you know, it was really cool. He was pretty cool young kid because he was already studying with Tyrone Lampkin and and he was telling me, you know, like you know what they were going through rudimentally.

00:26:38
Speaker 5: And then I joined a fife and drum corps.

00:26:42
Speaker 6: So that actually was the first band that I played in, was a fife and drum corps.

00:26:46
Speaker 5: Is that, Cindy?

00:26:47
Speaker 3: A fife and drum call?

00:26:48
Speaker 5: Is that like a drum corp? You know, little little flutes, jones, you know, the marching stuff.

00:26:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, gotcha.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: Got So that's not like Florida A and n level right, Austin the six up in the air and turn around and playing. That's the way I like it. It's more like reenacting of of the Forefathers.

00:27:12
Speaker 5: Ok.

00:27:16
Speaker 2: Wow, you're an anomaly. So you've not mentioned the word church yet, so you've had no beginning or foundation like playing in your church choir, none of those things. Like, yeah, it's very unusual to find a black musician that somehow I didn't have to go through that path of that journey. So you never like were a player in a church or any of those things.

00:27:42
Speaker 5: I did play a little bit in my church.

00:27:44
Speaker 6: And I started out in the choir and we were singing something and I was belting out something so loud, and the guy was like hey. He was like, hey, hey, you know, and I said, actually, i'd really rather played drums. And he said you play drums and I said yeah. So they let me bring my drums down and I played. And so I did that for a little bit. I didn't do that too much, but I did that a little bit, just myself.

00:28:12
Speaker 5: And and the and the organist. But also I played a team bit with my grandmother because she's played pipe organ in her church, which was in a different town. So I wasn't, you know, doing that a lot.

00:28:25
Speaker 6: But you know, she she would bring me in like for these special events, like you know, for Christmas. You know the drummer little drummer boy. Now it's the drummer girl. You know, stuff like that.

00:28:36
Speaker 5: So I played with her in her church as well.

00:28:39
Speaker 3: Wait, we didn't ask where are people from city? I know, y'all you're from Ohio, but where are your people from?

00:28:44
Speaker 5: Ohio, Kentucky, Okay, all mid Midwest basically, Also.

00:28:49
Speaker 2: The entire families from Yellow Springs or the Midwest.

00:28:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, Midwest like Chicago.

00:28:54
Speaker 3: Oh, y'all don't have any Southern roots.

00:28:55
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, no, no Southern roots.

00:28:58
Speaker 3: No wow, yeah right.

00:29:02
Speaker 2: This is the first for everything. I like when we get musicians from no church, no South, this is awesome. Is insane. At what point do you find other musicians that you want to play with.

00:29:18
Speaker 5: I started in junior high school playing with the stage band. We had a concert band. And in high school I played with this again, the stage band, the concert band, the orchestra, and then I played also in the pit orchestra, which you know, we played for performances, you know, they would do like like Broadway type performances, but high school level. So I played in that, and in high school is probably when I started, you know, finding other people who were my age. At thirteen, really, the first band that I played with was.

00:29:57
Speaker 6: All older musicians, you know, a guitarist and bassist who were friends with my older sister. I met them through through her and started playing with them. But right after that I started finding.

00:30:13
Speaker 5: Young cats who were my age. But there was definitely a difference in my taste for music and then kind of their taste for music because we had so many records and so much music that.

00:30:27
Speaker 2: Was you were way more evanced.

00:30:30
Speaker 5: Well, the music was you know, on the cusp of of you know, certainly it was adventuresome and you know, innovative because I was able to be exposed to the innovators, you know, Art and Max and Roy and Miles and Coltrane and all these incredible people, and a lot of my peers, you know, they were into Kansas and Chicago and Tower of Power and stuff like that, which was all cool, and you know, we used to play those songs. There was a bass player who was heavily into that stuff, and we became friends, really best friends, and he would leave his amp and his base at my house and so we would play, like especially in the summer, every day. That's what we were doing.

00:31:10
Speaker 6: We put on records and then we would play put on records and play play to the record. Okay, now we got that, let's play it ourselves, you know. So we were doing that all the time. And then there were some scattered.

00:31:21
Speaker 5: Musicians around the area that.

00:31:23
Speaker 6: I lived in who were also into jazz and also into you know, like pushing the envelope a little bit. But I really didn't get into that kind of community that was full.

00:31:35
Speaker 5: Of cats my age that wanted to do that until I went to Berkeley.

00:31:39
Speaker 2: So at one point did you think like wow, like I'm the only young person I know that plays like how an adult plays because I went through that kind of all my life. Like my dad was an old these duop singer, so I grew up with them, all of his musicians, and you know, I started playing with my dad when I was twelve, and you know, they make a big deal of it in concert, like, oh my god, a twelve year old wonder gun like, so I kind of you know, by fourteen fifteen, I had the swagger like, yeah, I'm the only young kid that sounds like you old cats. And then my first day of school at Performing Arts in Philadelphia, you know literally the no, not the first day, the second day, the second day already like Miles Davis is calling for like Christian McBride and Joey Francesco to like giggle with him. And you know the day that Kenny Kirkle and I think got into a situation in Joey Francisco at the likely out to me like literally come to my school. I thought I was hot shit. And then by the first week, and you know, mind you like boys to men also go to this school. Like suddenly I'm getting a wake up call, Like, uh, not only are people your age and younger like musicians, but they're like dusting your ass right now. You can't rely on you being Lee Andrews's little kid like at Radio City Music all like my little thirteen year old son, like hey dad, you know, like so it was a wake up call. Actually, you know what, this is an apropos episode. I've had two wake up calls courtesy of Cindy Blackman and just hitting me right now. I went to that part later because I as I was saying about my experiences in high school, like thinking out I was hot shitting you know, suddenly real musicians are dusting me. It gave me a wake up call. But then it just hit me that you're responsible for two wake up calls for me.

00:33:53
Speaker 7: But I'll he's not going to tell us, no, no, no, no, Okay, storyteller, all right, Number one, do you remember the first time we played together? Okay, So I always wanted to ask you.

00:34:10
Speaker 2: So there was this thing. This had to be maybe three months after nine to eleven. I remember this being like so you remember that that two month three month post nine to eleven? Are we in the Book of Revelations? Is this the apocalypse? Is this you know that feeling that we also said in twenty twenty, like, oh, is this the end of the world. But there's a really surreal period after nine to eleven. New Yorkers were real nice to each other and hey, how are you making? You know that sort of thing. It was a very surreal feeling in the air. Someone had said it might have been there's two fashion weeks in New York, so this might be February of two thousand and two. But they wanted you and I to just do a one on one drum thing at this boutique thing. And I just said, yeah, sure, you know, and didn't prepare for it. And I remember we briefly spoke backstage, like so what are we supposed to do?

00:35:14
Speaker 3: They're like, y'all briefly spoke before you went on.

00:35:18
Speaker 8: And it was I mean, Liyah, like even before position it's not I'm sorry, right, just act like that's quest love Supreme, Like literally I show it like minister, like, hey, how you do it?

00:35:31
Speaker 2: Like that's kind of And I was like, so what do we do. And She's like, uh, we just play and I was like, uh okay, yeah I could do that.

00:35:41
Speaker 3: And man, okay, y'all need to talk to us through this, like I need to.

00:35:45
Speaker 2: She went from zero to autobone two hundred miles an hour.

00:35:52
Speaker 5: No cheap.

00:35:53
Speaker 2: Could you not keep up? Happen? Giant steps? You went to baby steps?

00:35:58
Speaker 5: Have it?

00:35:59
Speaker 2: Do you remember the do you remember the first time in life like out of shape where like you're like you went jogging, you remember the first time like you jigged your first mile? Do you want to die? And it was like you've It was like some Gi Jane basic training thing like dog.

00:36:19
Speaker 3: There was a second at the end of you got me like, all right, fuck it, dude.

00:36:23
Speaker 2: There was a digital clock that was in the corner and that was the slowest I ever saw seconds go by, and like forty three seconds went by and I was like, oh, I'm gonna die like she it was the fastest. It was the loudest, fastest thing ever. And that night, I will say, was the night. And that night, yeah, I was four thirty eight at my most weight. Oh okay, and I got through that gig by the skin of my teeth and I remember going back to my hotel and just looking at it was one of the moments where you look yourself in the mirror and you're just like, it's not gonna work. It wasn't a rock bottom lobe place. But I definitely remember by like minute six, I don't know how she does this, Like I've never gone this. Like my level of drum solo is like maybe two minutes, maybe three minutes and that's it. But I was like, one, my drumming technique is way under advanced, under cooked. I gotta work on that.

00:37:42
Speaker 3: And seeing that it looks like Cindy gives more of her body too in the as she's drumming, like she just the your whole body, all your limbs.

00:37:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was watching just like, oh wow, she puts her Like are there times where it's just like you feel this pressure that you have to go from zero to nine hundred bounds per hour every show you've ever done in the rest of your life, Like, is there a pressure where you just don't feel like doing that? No, not for me.

00:38:14
Speaker 5: I loved ninety an hour.

00:38:16
Speaker 2: I love it therapeutic.

00:38:18
Speaker 5: I loved the velocity of all of that. But you know, before we get into more of that.

00:38:22
Speaker 6: I just want to say that when we played together, I was like, man, this dude, I mean, and I heard you on record.

00:38:30
Speaker 5: I loved your playing, but to play with you your groove was so intensely beautiful, and so in the pocket I was like, okay, yes.

00:38:39
Speaker 2: That's all I had. Pocket. I didn't have velocity or strength or dynamic.

00:38:48
Speaker 5: Got let me tell you something. I loved it. I thought it was was awesome, you know, so that was You're very kind, thank you, No, it was It's the truth, man, I loved it. I thought it was so great. So for me, it was really really great to play with you and feel where you're feeling it. You know. It's interesting because I went to see Tony at the Vanguard one time, and you know you've been to the Vanguard.

00:39:13
Speaker 6: You know that little bench that they have, so that's drummer's row, So of course early so I could be as close to Tony as possible on drummer's row.

00:39:21
Speaker 5: So drums are here and I'm right here. So I'm just watching Tony, not paying attention to anything else.

00:39:27
Speaker 6: That's going on in the room because I'm focused on him. Of course, you know, as we all would be and there were people sitting next to me, but I don't know who they are, you know, just somebody.

00:39:38
Speaker 5: I don't know who it was.

00:39:39
Speaker 6: There's somebody on my left and you know, I'm watching him, and all of a sudden, there's like a little commotion on my on my left side.

00:39:46
Speaker 5: I didn't know what it was. Somebody pushed the person out of the way who was sitting next to me and sat down next to me, just plopped down and I looked and his art blaky, I tell you, it was already my papa. He sat down next to me and he put his arm around me, and so he's listening.

00:40:08
Speaker 6: He's watching Tony like I'm watching Tony, and he's patting on my shoulder, you know, where he's feeling the beat.

00:40:15
Speaker 5: And Tony's playing where he's feeling the beat. And Tony was, you know, like, so you got the middle of the beat, you got behind the beat, you got above the beat. You know, you got all these little areas where you can push. You know where that that center is, and you can push the center, be in the center, you can be behind it. And we know the cast that we love kind of where they go.

00:40:37
Speaker 6: So Tony is like you know, either center or pushing, and so he was pushing and Art was feeling it back here.

00:40:46
Speaker 5: So for me to feel Art tapping on my shoulder where he felt the one was yes and where he felt the time and where Tony was playing, it was mind blowing.

00:40:58
Speaker 2: It was like, I'm always that person where my one is where someone's one is not. And then you're always You're always behind the ba of mere. That's your thing, that's always your thing. Yeah, and I'll be that Meedley. I mean like that's your whole. Wow, that's my wheelhouse. Can I ask a.

00:41:17
Speaker 4: Question to two of the greatest drummers that ever lived? Like when are you timekeeper? And when are you musician? When are you melodic instrument? When are you rhythmic instrument? I feel like that to be always in drummers who do a lot of it, Like how do you feel yourself as a musician? I guess it's the question.

00:41:34
Speaker 2: So this is weird, and this is coming right off the residency. I did a blue Note this year. I'm about crossing the boundaries or whatever it makes me uncomfortable and dive into it and you know, getting out of my comfort zone. And it's been a minute since I've done a jazz gig. So I did like a week of gigs with David Murray. Also, the third lesson I learned was I'm never doing a duo sho ever again. So I did a trio show, you know, David Murray and very angry, and I realized that being in a situation where you know, you only have three musicians and it's a saxophone and a keyboard player, I'm less a heart drummer more of a brain drummer because I'm literally thinking, okay, so we don't have a guitar player or a bass player, so my foot's going to have to keep the pace on bass and the like. I'm a very calculating drummer because I'm used to being a traffic cup for the roots, and I know that drumming is purely a heart or a gut thing, and it's gut. We say the heart better marketing to say heart. But I'm not necessarily a heart drummer. So you know, I'm also wondering that same question that you just asked, Bill, because I'm gonna do a set of gigs with glasper as a duo, right, and again it's it's I think to be a drummer is also to be like super vulnerable because you don't know what's gonna happen next. It's not like you can calculate exactly what you're gonna do. So just from a psychological aspect, I'm trying to do more jazz gigs. So that I because you said you.

00:43:16
Speaker 3: Don't like duos and you want to do another one with Robert Okay.

00:43:19
Speaker 2: Well, because I can't preach the gospel and then don't practice what I preach, and I'm all about getting out of your comfort zone. Yeah, it scares me to death and I freaked out on glass for one night, like, oh no, it's gonna work, man like, because I'm thinking, you know, I'm I'm thinking, and I think to really be an effective musician you have to stop thinking and just do. And it's so hard for me to just trust not being in control, like not planning the map out days beforehand. So do you feel as though you're the traffic cop that controls everyone or are you part of the color making of music?

00:43:59
Speaker 5: You know, I think it's kind of situational, depending on you know, what the situation is that you're playing. But for me, I think you're everything because you know, if you keep for me, when I keep my options open, then I have all these different pathways that I can go down, and you know, always thinking about giving the music what it needs at that time.

00:44:24
Speaker 6: You know, so some situations and every situation is different. I learned that from Ron Carter. You know, one situation might need you to be a certain thing, one situation might need you to be something else, and then there are some situations where you can just be kind of everything.

00:44:42
Speaker 3: Can you give us some examples of the people are thinking, Like, so when you're doing your jazz thing or when you're doing it with with Lenny, Like when you're with Lenny, are.

00:44:49
Speaker 5: You free or are you like all those things?

00:44:53
Speaker 6: Lenny's thing is is it's rock funk, and it's you know, you're playing that group. You're gonna slam that groove and play that until cows come home with some exciting things that you're doing feiel wise around that when it's needed, but you're basically playing the groove. And and you know, Lenny's thing is is parts. You know, you're playing the parts from the records that he's recorded. So for me, I just made those parts my own as you know, I own them.

00:45:24
Speaker 5: You know. Okay, you played it on the record, but this is mine right now, you know.

00:45:27
Speaker 6: So that's the way I approach that. And then I would add little things, you know, kind of just to lift the music because now we're playing live, and also to satisfy myself, you know, to interject something. But that situation where you know the end game and the goal is the groove and to be exciting.

00:45:48
Speaker 3: That's coloring. So in the mirrors terms, that would be when you're in that situation, you're doing more of the coloring. You don't have to be traffic copping.

00:45:55
Speaker 6: No, you're traffic copping because you're playing. You're playing the groove, you know, and basically sticking to that. But there are situations where so like when I play with Carlos, you have that because every music has to feel good, right, so you have that, but also you're allowed to expand and expound and be a little more free. And so then that means you can interject. With my own band, I do a combination of stuff because I love grooving, but I also love interjection. I love having conversation. I love stating the groove, but I also love hearing it in my head and playing around it, you know, and I think, you know, it's important to understand that the groove is not just up to the drummer. It's up to everybody. So you know, there are times when you swap roles with people. You know, you pass the ball around, you know, like maybe bass player is the one who's who's holding it down and you're kind of flowering around, and then maybe you're both doing it at the same time. There's a lot of different ways to approach the music when you're playing in situations that are i'll say freer or you know, able to allow interjection and and you know, kind of freedom of conversation and some situations that's not apropos for but in other situations is So that's what I was saying earlier. It's kind of situational depending on you know, what you're playing, who you're who you're playing with. You know, like let's say you're dating someone you know, and you're dating this guy and and he likes sci fi movies, so with him, you're going to go see sci fi movies. But then if you're dating some other person following year, and you know they don't like movies, they like opera, So then maybe you're going to go to an opera with this person. It's just situational, So it just depends on you know, what situation is and what you do, what you like as a combination, you know, in terms of a group.

00:48:04
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're just.

00:48:05
Speaker 2: Question because I think the very first album of yours in which I became aware was the Code writ project with Steve Coleman. At any point, were you being wooed by the the em Bass collective at all to to to join them in based being a Steve Coleman or a Gosby uh, Jerry Allen Cassandra, I guess is a member of Embass basically the jazz, the jazz, native tongues, the like. Were they were they trying to recruit you to be part of their click or you know I talked to.

00:48:48
Speaker 6: Steve about that a little bit at one point, but you know I had a different click. I was in another click who was Click then Wallace, you know his whole team. That was kind of my click Wallace, and you know that that kind.

00:49:02
Speaker 5: Of took because we were just so into Miles and Tony, you know, that was our thing. So that was kind of where my head was at and you know, I didn't really want to know about much else at that point.

00:49:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, Man, wileace fn that I got to work with him briefly on Commons Electric Circus album. Man incredible player, like he even the moment in March of twenty twenty where we were trying to figure out whether or not, like if COVID was going to be like a real thing or just like a thing where it's like, Okay, we're just in the house for a couple of days and they'll spray some raid outside and then we'll be cool and you know, like that sort of thing. While its was one of the first casualties of COVID that made me know that instantly this is this is serious. Can you describe your years of playing with them? Like what was he like?

00:50:01
Speaker 6: He was a true musician, a true student of the music, and somebody who was unrelentless in wanting to push his own envelope in terms of a player, a musician, and push the envelope of the music.

00:50:22
Speaker 5: You know, he was really incredible. Like, you know, we were in a relationship for.

00:50:29
Speaker 6: Like eleven years and it would be a race in the morning to see who got to their instrument first, Who got to the piano first, Who got to the record player first? You know, it was incredible because this guy was just really, really so inspired.

00:50:46
Speaker 5: You know, he just lived the music.

00:50:48
Speaker 2: You know.

00:50:49
Speaker 5: It was really amazing to see. And you know, he was such a genius, you know, his harmonic knowledge, his knowledge of the drums. I don't know if you ever talked to him about drums, but his knowledge of the drums was incredible.

00:51:03
Speaker 6: I could talk to him about drumming in more depth and detail than I can talk to most drummers about. I mean, this guy was really into the music music, okay.

00:51:16
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, And I learned so much from him.

00:51:18
Speaker 6: I learned harmony from him, I learned, you know, about playing in an ensemble to him from him. You know, it's just so many things that he was. She's already very advanced at at such a young age, you know. So for me, you know, for for my peer group, to me, he was like the genius of.

00:51:38
Speaker 5: Of of my peer group.

00:51:44
Speaker 2: Okay, you said something, and it quasi triggered me, and I gotta ask you this. Okay, So I purposely, purposely in my professional life, in my romantic life, was like I'm never ever dating a creative Yes, in my same field. Yes, And you know because I've watched like singers together they harmonized in twenty four to seven, And like, there's one rule I've ever had, like I don't care how fun yeah the individual is. Yeah, like no, and seriously, there there have been some conversations had recent like well what was it about me? Like, and I've always had I've always had an anti musician creative policy.

00:52:44
Speaker 3: I mean, all human beings do not to mention musicians, and me are keep in mind that all girls get told not to date musicians. I'm a door of oh.

00:52:51
Speaker 5: Because we're dogs, right, So exactly, so I'm saying yes, all of that, and I.

00:52:57
Speaker 2: Think a lot of that had to do with it because there have been some times where like I would always gun for like adjacent, like the assistant, you know, someone that's kind of someone that understands the industry, not a total civilian, but just not What is it like to be in a relationship on purpose? Yeah, on purpose with a creative because to me, I feel like that's that's oil and water. I feel like that's church and state. Like when I come home, I want to And it's weird because you know, I'm seeing someone right now that's like a movie head, and I actually like discussing movies with her and those sort of things, and like we have movie nights and all the discussions and depth and listen to podcasts together about filmmaking techniques and all those things. But yeah, with music though, oh man, I will feel so claustrophobic being a relationship where like first thing in the morning you want to talk music and but for you, how does that work? Like?

00:54:19
Speaker 3: And you make it look good, she makes it look at ud.

00:54:24
Speaker 5: You're tracking me up right now. I gotta tell you, man, you're making me laugh so hard.

00:54:31
Speaker 6: The relationship that I had with with with Wallace was incredible because you know, we were so young. We were like twenty you know, we got together and we were just going for it all the time, and so.

00:54:43
Speaker 5: It was very inspiring to me.

00:54:45
Speaker 6: The issue became when the relationship split. It's like, okay, now we do you know? And not only did you know we split as a couple, but you know my music partner we split, and okay, this is not happening to I'm never.

00:55:00
Speaker 5: Doing that again. I Am never dating a musician ever again, because you know, when if it does split.

00:55:06
Speaker 6: Then you know, it's like, well wait a minute, Okay, this is not happening, you know. So at that point I was like, okay, this is I'm not gonna do that again ever ever. And so the next person that I diated was not a musician at all. You know, I loved music, but was not a musician.

00:55:24
Speaker 2: Was that weird?

00:55:25
Speaker 5: No, because the person was this person was was very supportive, you know, so that it wasn't weird because he loved.

00:55:32
Speaker 2: Music, you know, but I'm weird in terms of like, you know, if you want to talk about Tony Williams's uh you know net for TD you know what I mean, She's.

00:55:43
Speaker 6: Those conversations didn't happen, not like that, because it would it would be like the way that he would describe something, you know, it would It was interesting to me to hear his take.

00:55:57
Speaker 5: On stuff because he was so not a musician. You know. He would say, well, that person sounds like would sounds like would that sounds like what? You know? So it was just kind of funny to me. You know. So my my end depth music conversations were with my friends, my music friends, they were not with that person, because that just didn't happen.

00:56:19
Speaker 3: Which is okay too, which is okay too.

00:56:22
Speaker 5: That was okay.

00:56:23
Speaker 6: But you know then when I when I met Carlos, I was like, there's a lot in common, but it wasn't you know. It was more the spiritual path that he was on that grabbed me because I hadn't been with some time and I was missing that.

00:56:41
Speaker 5: That's what I was looking for most. The fact that he was a musician was secondary.

00:56:47
Speaker 6: The spiritual path one one for me because that's what I was looking for, somebody on a spiritual path.

00:56:52
Speaker 5: I needed that, you know, right. And the music thing with him.

00:57:02
Speaker 6: Is there and we talk about it all the time, but he's such a sage with other things that is just a whole another level of stuff that goes on. So sometimes we're not talking about music. We're talking about philosophy, we're talking about spirituality. We're talking about you know, things that we both want to do, you know, uplifting the.

00:57:29
Speaker 5: Consciousness of humanity. So it's a whole nother thing, and we do it through music, yes, but we also do it, you know, he does it through streams and through talking to people in different ways. You've spoken to him, you know, So it's a whole other level. Now with him, it's a whole other level of depth and dimension in what we talk about.

00:57:52
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know this is an outline question or whatever, but assuming that your life partner is Carlo Santana, I would always imagine that, like, for me, the most ideal situation. So yeah, it kind of when I had my first conversation with him, was also a little bit past the pandemic where I have my spiritual waking as well, and you know, got into the things I used to laugh at. I used to look at cats like Carlos, like burntal hippie and you know, all that stuff. And then suddenly I morphed into the person I used to laugh at. I you know, like started doing yoga and started meditating, and started sound baths and like all those things I used to laugh at people. And for me, when I went to my first sound bath, I was just like, yo, this is like, this is an ideal musical situation. I wouldn't mind being in. That's not a job or me playing a gig, but like the idea of watching people play. You know, there were Klimba's there, there were various bells and koshy bells and all those things or whatever. Do you guys like routinely do circles of music together as a couple or like with groups of people or not like that, you know, No, never, Okay, I was having a romantica.

00:59:26
Speaker 5: We don't do any of that stuff. I mean, we listen to stuff, you know, and you know, he comes up with all these playlists and we go through that kind of stuff.

00:59:36
Speaker 6: And of course he loves the drums, so we talk about the drums, and but it's not like we're doing music circles or even jamming all the time. That's you know, like I have drums in the house, but I really play in the house. I go to the studio to play because I like to focus and be and he likes to sit in the living room and play, so he plays there.

01:00:03
Speaker 5: And I go to the studio and play.

01:00:06
Speaker 6: So which is actually good because then you're giving the person their own space, you know. So we have this stuff where we come together, and then we also have our own space to explore the way we want to or you know, just be alone with our instruments, which is something that as you know, you're a musician too, and you know, we need that that's it's part of the deal.

01:00:30
Speaker 2: I was asking because like there's a period where Don Cherry would often involve all this family into recordings. Like, yes, he recorded it and released it, but I know that the genesis of a lot of those recordings were just like being at home doing chanting around the house and you know that that sort of thing. So in my mind, I don't know, I just imagine you two as this utopian couple.

01:01:01
Speaker 6: I'll tell you actually, and you're you're sparking a memory. We only did we did do something like that one time, and it was Carlos's idea.

01:01:13
Speaker 5: We had a bunch of family over. This is when we lived in California. We had a bunch of family over and you know.

01:01:19
Speaker 6: Without getting into detail, there was something that needed to be kind of healed, and so Carlos' suggestion was that we everybody started playing kunga's and playing drums, and so everybody was was playing a drum or, you know, picked up a percussion thing. That's the only time we've ever done that, and it was kind of like a very healing experience because that was what was needed. But you know, we're not like the music circle, you know, kumbaya people.

01:01:52
Speaker 2: Sorry, because my next question was, so we're gonna come.

01:01:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was totally an invite for a dress that they drop circle invice like so bad.

01:02:02
Speaker 3: Wait, wait, it needs to happen.

01:02:04
Speaker 5: It looks like if you if you came over to the house, we'd probably do it with you.

01:02:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's it. I specifically said to him that when I decide or make the decision to do my first ayahuasca journey, I wanted him to be present to play.

01:02:21
Speaker 3: I thought you hadn't already done that a mirror.

01:02:23
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no, I'm not there. I'm still I'm still in the shallow part of the okay, the shallow.

01:02:29
Speaker 3: On that note, though, can I ask Cindy, like on a daily as far as like a routine of what it takes spiritually and physically for you to present what I see right now? Is there something that you.

01:02:40
Speaker 2: By the way, yeah, like, but I need to know this is a very thing, yes for sure. Yeah.

01:02:48
Speaker 5: I do a lot of different stuff.

01:02:50
Speaker 6: So I've always been into Like, through school, my thing was sports and drums, So I've always been into being healthy. My again, my older sister who had all those records, she also got me into juice singing at a very young age and to you know, eating a healthy way. So I do a lot of exercise. I was into yoga a lot at one point. I haven't been into yoga lately, but you know, at this point, I do tai chi. You know, I've done other martial arts too. Right now it's tai chi. I do supplements. I drink a lot of water, you know, I try to rest. I get into meditation. I'm a vegan.

01:03:33
Speaker 3: I saw you perform at the VMAs, and I was wondering in those situations, you know, twenty years later, there are a lot of baby Cindy Blackman's now, Like folks were very purposeful in having a female drummer and their bands and things of that nature. So I'm wondering, like, in those situations like the VMAs, do you get a lot of the young female drummers coming to you and saying, oh my god, you're my hero. How do you do the things that you do and all of that?

01:03:56
Speaker 5: Or not?

01:03:58
Speaker 3: Literally? I had that thought of the VMA's. I was like, there should be fan a fan out for Cidy Blackman right now behind stage?

01:04:03
Speaker 5: Was it, Oh, thank you?

01:04:06
Speaker 6: I've had some of that, you know, And it's always an honor if if if somebody says that they were, you know, inspired by you or influenced by you or whatever, because you know that's part of it. You know, you want the music to grow and you want the music to live on, and you want people to have no fear with going for some a young a young boy or a young girl or or you know, a person who just feels that they've been disallowed to get into some sort of creative endeavor that they're inspired by.

01:04:45
Speaker 5: You know, you want you go for it. So that's always an honor to know that and get any of that. And if that's the case, I feel good about that.

01:04:55
Speaker 2: How easy was it for you? Because I do know that if one thing's that that jazz musicians are known for are their seriousness or their earnestness. And you know, Branford told me how his life had to adjust once he had to let his community know that he was going to play with Sting. You know, certain people felt betrayed and you know that sort of thing. But you know, Branford is also kind of in the zero fox lane in playing with Lenny. Did your community ever sort of scoff at you, like, well, you're a serious musician, why would you want to do these things? Or whatever? Like what was the general was there resistance on your part or how did Lenny convince you to even play? Because I know that for the first part of Let Love Rule, Zorro was Lenny's original drummer, and then you came in shortly thereafter.

01:05:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, some people kind of scoffed at it, you know, at why would you want to do that? You know?

01:06:01
Speaker 6: But as I was saying before, I grew up with a lot of different musics in my house, so I like a lot of different musics.

01:06:08
Speaker 5: I liked playing in these stadiums with him, and I could see.

01:06:14
Speaker 6: Everybody dancing and everybody groove, and I liked being responsible for making people feel that good from making people want to dance, making people want to move.

01:06:23
Speaker 5: I like being in that seat, you know.

01:06:26
Speaker 6: And when I first played with him, I actually didn't even really know who Lenny was because I hadn't I know his music, Yeah, I didn't. I mean I was I wanted to play with Miles Davis, and I wanted to play with Freddie Hubbard.

01:06:39
Speaker 5: You know, this is that was my focus. I was like, how can I I want to do that. That's what I want to do.

01:06:45
Speaker 6: And so I was not thinking about playing rock or playing pop or funk or anything like that at that time, because I was just focused on doing that. And Antoine turned.

01:06:57
Speaker 5: Me on to Lenny, you know, and it was like, Oh, I have this this this friend who's he's a rock and roll guy who likes Gretz drums and caslogion symbols.

01:07:09
Speaker 6: Do you want to meet him? I'm like, wow, he's got ears. Okay, I'd love to meet him.

01:07:13
Speaker 5: And he likes that that I know.

01:07:14
Speaker 6: And he's like, yeah, he likes Miles and he likes Coltrane. I'm like, okay, that sounds like a cool person. You know, I'd love to meet him. And he said, well, he's been looking for a drummer for like a year and a half. You know, maybe I don't have his number, but he calls me every once in a while, and if he's still looking, you know, would you be interested in talking to him? And I said, yeah, he sounds cool. And at that point I still.

01:07:37
Speaker 5: Hadn't heard his music and he and he said, well, you know, he's the guy who he was.

01:07:41
Speaker 6: Married to to Lisa Bone and I'm like, okay, yeah, I know Lisa because I know the Cosby Show.

01:07:46
Speaker 5: We grew up on that.

01:07:48
Speaker 6: And I actually just played for him on the phone, you know. Like some months later, Antonine called me just like I got Lenny. I got Lenny on the line and and so he kind of did a three way or oh, let me said do you have drums in your house? And I said yeah, and he said, well play something.

01:08:06
Speaker 5: So I said okay, and I got on and I started playing. I played for a long time, like maybe long time for a phone call, like.

01:08:13
Speaker 6: Maybe five minutes, and then I got off and I said, this one speaker is small, and I wasn't playing soft.

01:08:22
Speaker 5: I could you hear it? You know, was the clear?

01:08:24
Speaker 6: And he said, yeah, I'm in La. Can you fly out here right now? And I said okay, I wasn't doing anything. And so next morning, at like six am, I had a flight and he said, you know, pack for two days, come out, no strings attached, just playing with my band, see how it feels, and then I'll send you home.

01:08:42
Speaker 5: And I said, oh cool, I've never been to La. This would be a chance for me to meet some new musicians. I'll go and just play and then I'll come home.

01:08:50
Speaker 6: And I went out, and his manager or somebody, when they found out that I was coming, they made an announcement and called like an audition. So when I got there, we went to the place where he was staying and there were no instruments there, like they were getting some rental gear from sir somewhere and they hadn't showed up yet. And I'm sitting there waiting and I see it can't come in with like, you know, a base rom pedal. I saw somebody else come in with a stick bag, and first I was thinking, well, that's an odd way to bring in the drums. And I was like, wait a minute, No, no, these are drummers.

01:09:26
Speaker 5: Like forty drummers showed up to audition for him, and I had jet like so I was like, okay, still no gears here. I'm gonna go outside and just chill out for a minute. So I went outside on a launcher.

01:09:38
Speaker 6: And I fell asleep and the assistant. Lenny's assistant came and she was like, Cindy, Lenny started the auditions. He wanted you to play first, but you know he couldn't find you, so he already started. You gotta come now, So I was okay, I came and you know, I.

01:09:54
Speaker 5: Auditioned and played, and fortunately for me, he said, okay, no, this is the auditions over.

01:10:00
Speaker 6: I'm gonna tell yeah, and which was for me. But but then his manager was like, yeah, but you got like thirty nine other people out there. Kind of not cool if you don't hear them. So you know, he heard them, and he heard one other guy in there that he liked. And then there was a drummer coming from London, Michael Lee. He arrived the next day. So the following day Lenny had me play and other drummer play, and me play other drummer play.

01:10:29
Speaker 5: He still chose me.

01:10:30
Speaker 6: Then he had me do the same thing with Michael Lee and he still shows me, which was you know, an honor and got you know, rest in peace.

01:10:39
Speaker 5: Michael Lee.

01:10:40
Speaker 6: He was a great drummer. He ended up playing with Robert Plant and he passed really early, so that's why I say rest in peace. He was really fantastic. But at any rate, you know, at that point, it had already been the two days, so I already used up whatever clothing I had for my little two day stay.

01:11:00
Speaker 3: I was about to ask you what you were.

01:11:01
Speaker 5: I ended up staying for for two weeks and learning his music, and at the end of that we did are you Gonna Go My Way?

01:11:09
Speaker 3: Was the esthetic? Was y'all aesthetic just natural? I'm just saying visually, was the aesthetic always just natural? Y'all walked in with whatever you look like, and this is it was?

01:11:19
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

01:11:20
Speaker 6: It was really pretty natural because you know, I had my little astro and my little yeah, you know, that was kind of his vibe, and so it was it was pretty natural right away.

01:11:30
Speaker 2: He knew of you already because I remember reading a write up and Vibe magazine about you before you joined Lenny. I think Tate interviewed you. Either Tate or Dreamhampton interviewed it. I forget who it was, but like, did he not know about you already or was that the first time both of you were kind of getting into each other.

01:11:50
Speaker 5: I remember that that Vibe interviewing, and I don't know, I don't to my recollection, he didn't know of me beforehand before Antoine mentioned me, you know, to my recollection, you know he did, he didn't.

01:12:02
Speaker 2: But can you talk about Antoine who used to play on that Letterman still correct.

01:12:08
Speaker 5: No, no, no, Antoine Roney Wallace's brother an Okay, I thought you knew Antoine.

01:12:13
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, but yeah, Antoine his brother, who's a saxophone player. That's the person who hooked Lenny and I up together.

01:12:22
Speaker 5: But you know, you know, we we did that. We did that video.

01:12:26
Speaker 6: And then after he and the bass player, the guitar player, and his manager and assistant, they walked me outside and Lenny said, so you want to join my band?

01:12:40
Speaker 5: And I said, yeah, when does it start? And he started laughing. He said it started two weeks ago.

01:12:47
Speaker 2: So you never went home, you know, not really?

01:12:49
Speaker 5: I mean I went I went home.

01:12:50
Speaker 6: We actually rehearsed in New Jersey, and I was living in New York at the time, so I kind of did go home, and then we just rehearsed.

01:13:02
Speaker 3: I don't want this to sound reductive, but this is commonality between y'all cannot just be overlooked. Okay, outside of the drum thing, y'all have been the most consistent afrowares of our time. Can we talk about this? Can we talk about why we've been so consistent, Cindy, Can we talk about how hard it is to maintain this in a sweaty drum environment where things are shrinking, cans are shrinking. Yeah, the Afro strengths in the water people.

01:13:31
Speaker 2: I too wanted to know, like did that gig also come complete with your because it's not until working here at thirty Rock in which pretty much every day is a day at a high ends line.

01:13:44
Speaker 3: Because that hair did not always look like that's beautiful on that head right there right now about you here? Oh thank you changes it's ways and j.

01:13:53
Speaker 2: Th rock. Yeah, I was about to say, where was your.

01:13:55
Speaker 3: Why stay so consistent?

01:13:57
Speaker 5: I like the Jesus and barries. You know.

01:14:00
Speaker 6: It's funny because and not many people know this, but when I did that video, Lenny wanted me to shave my head for that video, and I you know, there was probably a couple of reasons, but he wanted me to shave my head.

01:14:16
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh no, I can't do that, you know. And I called my mom, I'm saying and we were at the video and they were waiting on me to shave my head.

01:14:27
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I want to change everything.

01:14:31
Speaker 5: And the manager was like, hey, this video is expensive. You gotta get this head shaved so we can move on. And I went found a phone and I called my mom. I said, Mom, they want me to save my head. And she said, Cindy, if you shave your head, your grandmother were rolling her grave. You cannot, you cannot shave your head. I'm like, okay, and I said, you know, I can't do it. I can't shave my head. And you know, in Nunny's defense.

01:14:58
Speaker 6: You know how we go through and this is really kind of a full disclosure that I've actually talked about. Uh So, Meir, you gotta blame you for this, this me saying this, you know, you're bringing something out of me.

01:15:10
Speaker 5: In other words.

01:15:11
Speaker 2: Okay, but yeah, you know how we we do with our hair.

01:15:16
Speaker 6: You know, we we put stuff in our hair, you know, chemical and stuff. And I put some chemical on my hair and it really messed my hair up. So I think that's why he probably wanted me to shave it. I don't know, but you know he liked that look, you know, and he he showed me there was one woman in the video, a sister.

01:15:33
Speaker 5: Who had kind of my complexion, and she had a shaved head. Was look at her, see how beautiful she is. You'll be beautiful like that. I'm like, yeah, let's go on her, but it's not you know, my head looks like on the air.

01:15:45
Speaker 9: But yeah, so I you know, for that for that video, I actually wore like a little afro wig, you know, because yeah, and then we started with just my my hair.

01:16:00
Speaker 6: As it became more of the afro that you know, I liked, it was just my afro, you know, I would just let my hair out and just you know, be be that. But I was always into an afro, like from when I was young, you know, I always had my afro out just because I liked that style. And one of my heroes, who was my older sister, she was like the first person in Yellow Springs who got an afro.

01:16:28
Speaker 5: She was like an innovator with the pioneer.

01:16:30
Speaker 2: Okay, she was.

01:16:31
Speaker 5: She was. I remember the day that she let her hair just you know, be free, and she came home walking down the street and all I saw was this hair, one like this, and I was like, whoa, she's the coolest thing I've ever seen. Look at that hair.

01:16:49
Speaker 2: Wow.

01:16:50
Speaker 5: I thought it was awesome.

01:16:51
Speaker 3: Another musician didn't answer on your side of me, but that's fine.

01:16:55
Speaker 2: Both when I did the Motown Philly video, when boys Men asked me to be in Motown Philly video. You know, my hair was out, but it was like it wasn't short like a box or whatever, you know, like I couldn't stop this from growing. It always grew. So night before I was like, I'm gonna braik my hair and believe it or not, that was super radical. That was like walking down fifty second Street West Philly, people look like them snakes in your head.

01:17:25
Speaker 3: Like man, because you have plats, not cornrows, you have.

01:17:28
Speaker 2: Flat platz, right, And it was like I was Medusa, like yeah, I see yeah, right. But for nineteen ninety one, that was such a radical, rebellious hairstyle, So I did you know it's weird. The day that we had to shoot the album cover for Do You Want More? I wanted to pick my afro out, but the girl that does my hair wasn't home at the time because she was a student at Temple University, and we shot in the more like that that album cover for Do You Want More? I think was shot like maybe like one in the afternoon or whatever. We just made the photo dark. But it wasn't until she got out of school at five pm that she ran the Sigma to take my afro out. So the back of do you want more? When we're in the alleyway, I'm my afro out, but the front cover I my plaid. So nah, I figured it was a new beginning. I thought I was pioneering something. And then two weeks later, Snoop wore his afro out at the American Music Awards. I was like, damn it, that's what I said.

01:18:41
Speaker 3: Most consistent, y'all are the most consistent. I appreciate y'all.

01:18:44
Speaker 2: I'm just hard hitded, thank you.

01:18:46
Speaker 5: But I like it. I like it. I like the afro and you know, I liked the afro pick. You know, I was like, okay, yeah, you go, brother like you. Yeah.

01:18:57
Speaker 2: You know one musician that is fun of sort of elevating women who play instruments. Of course, not with us, brother brother Nelson Princes. Has he ever asked you to play for him ever?

01:19:12
Speaker 6: I never played with Prince well, I mean the only time I played with him was was when he sat in with Lenny.

01:19:19
Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy, because I know for him, like his wheelhouse is elevating women who play instruments.

01:19:25
Speaker 5: And so we almost did, but it didn't happen.

01:19:28
Speaker 6: It was right around you know, it was actually we were supposed to play together in an audition setting, you know, me auditioning for him. But it was the day that Michael Jackson passed. Oh that just crashed the whole groove. You know, that just crashed the whole vibe. And then it never happened after that, you know, but it was that day and I just never forget the look on his face because if you were.

01:19:55
Speaker 2: There with him when he found out, mm hm, shit, how did I affect them?

01:20:00
Speaker 5: Yeah? It was it was the energy was not good. It was like, oh my god, it was like a shock. It was like complete sadness.

01:20:12
Speaker 6: It was like, you know, probably I would imagine and I didn't he didn't say it, but I would imagine it was probably like him looking at himself because his own mortality. It happened, and you know, when he passed, it was like all I could think of was like, wow, you know, I wonder what was really going through his.

01:20:36
Speaker 5: Head that day that Michael Jackson passed. I mean that was a pretty that was a shocker.

01:20:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have been battling for so long, I bet ith, Yeah, like just in a friendly French like.

01:20:47
Speaker 6: Hmm, but I mean inspired contemporaries, because you know, both were just so incredible and innovative in their in their own way. He's I mean, there's no way that anybody could ever listen to anything Michael Jackson and not say that he was not only a genius, but that he was incredible, you know, from the dancing to you know, the obviously that incredible voice. You know, and when you listen to him as a child, it's like Smokey Robinson said it. He said, you know, man, are you a child or I don't think so. I think you're a midget.

01:21:31
Speaker 2: Exactly.

01:21:33
Speaker 5: I know.

01:21:33
Speaker 2: He was a massive fan of Lenny's, Like, has he ever seen you guys in concert? Like, did you ever get to meet him, Michael or Michael Prince?

01:21:41
Speaker 5: I never got to meet him, unfortunately, and I don't think he's ever been to He's he never went to a concert.

01:21:46
Speaker 6: Because we would have known if he was there, like a big figure. So yeah, he never Prince, yes, he said him with us a couple of times. A few times actually at some some gigs and then at a rehearsal. We were rehearsing for the Rock and Roller Is Dead album and Lenny and Prince were hanging out and Prince came.

01:22:17
Speaker 5: It was actually yeah, with his perfume. That was to remember that his his valet came in to the studio before he did and he was sprayed.

01:22:35
Speaker 2: That's wild. I don't know that.

01:22:36
Speaker 6: It was so funny. He was spraying this before Prince came in. You know, I guess he's preparing the room. And then Prince came in and he and he sat in on organ. He played with us. It was really cool. He brought his guitar, he had us all of his gear, but he decided to play organ instead, so that that was pretty cool too.

01:22:55
Speaker 2: What I have to say that it's somewhere back then there. I still occasionally I'll wear it, but yeah, I saw Princess. You can tell. This is a weird thing to admit. You could tell a person's uh oil routine based on their bathroom where it again that I'm talking to you. You know, a big part of my vanilla smell is having gone in Lenny's bathroom once in Miami and saw Zoe's vanilla oil. And now we're the same thing. All all the oils that Prince wears.

01:23:38
Speaker 3: That's a lie. Are you serious? Those are the oils that he wears.

01:23:42
Speaker 2: I know I know, the combination of oils.

01:23:45
Speaker 3: So what you got from Bergamot and Paul, what you got.

01:23:50
Speaker 2: You know, just the best of Harlem, you know, some petulias and uh no, no, no, not Money in the Street and Blue Nile. Now that's that's a little two fifty secon street.

01:24:00
Speaker 3: But was there ever a situation where there was a jam session with you and Sheila on the stage at the same time with me? Yeah, well, not really.

01:24:16
Speaker 5: I was playing with Lenny at one point in we were playing at the House of Blues in l a and she she sat in, but that was on drums, so we weren't playing together.

01:24:28
Speaker 1: That's what I meant.

01:24:30
Speaker 5: Lennie invited her to sit in and I was cool with it.

01:24:32
Speaker 6: So she sat in on something recently last year playing at again in the House of Blues. But here in Las Vegas, she was in the audience and I think Carl Parasso brought her up and she was at the percussion his station, playing you know, some percussion, and I think that's the that's the closest it's ever been.

01:25:00
Speaker 2: Who's the most challenging musician that you've played with? Because I know that going into different situations, you don't know, this is more laid back, like there's more groove, there's more aggressive sounding. This soft sounding like for you, who's like probably the most challenging project that you've you've played with most challenging.

01:25:22
Speaker 5: That's interesting from.

01:25:24
Speaker 2: The roots, that'd be really funny, No, don't.

01:25:29
Speaker 6: Don Pullan was was challenging for me because.

01:25:34
Speaker 5: It was also a great learning experience. I've played with him for three years and before he passed, and it was incredible because he was so strong on the piano, so it gave me a.

01:25:47
Speaker 6: Chance to use volume and you know, intensity, but it still had to be under the acoustic piano. He wasn't the electric instruments, so you know, you had to be able to figure out how to be intense at every dynamic level.

01:26:10
Speaker 5: That was a pretty amazing experience for me. That was one one, just one.

01:26:18
Speaker 2: For you, Like this journey that you've had in music and creativity, Like, what is there left that you want to achieve as far as your life's work is concerned.

01:26:29
Speaker 5: More explorations with my composition. I'm in the process of recording a record now and we're adding strings to it, which the strings are done by someone else. Eventually, I would like to do the strings. I mean, you know, we're getting into that kind of area where I mean me, I'm getting into that kind of area where I want to expand on not only what I'm playing, but you know, composition and then what I'm adding to those compositions, like with strings or different things.

01:27:04
Speaker 6: For the arrangements. That's somewhere that I that I want to go. And you know, I want to keep pushing the envelope of raising my my level. I mean, and not to compete with anybody, but just for me, you know, to keep getting better and better. Yeah, just keep pushing myself because.

01:27:25
Speaker 2: I have to. You know.

01:27:26
Speaker 5: It's just it's kind of just embreded me to want to better myself at every turn.

01:27:35
Speaker 6: You know, so little things that I see, you know, you really need to you know, up your game in that. You know, you really need to upgrade this. You know, how about pushing the level of this or making that better. Oh you know I heard that and it's okay, but it can be so much better, you know. So I'm really kind of hard on myself.

01:27:54
Speaker 2: Well you know, even when you're not trying, you're pushing people. I was going to say in the story for the end, but I told already, but no, I thank you for even a role that you know, you played in my life and in my health.

01:28:06
Speaker 5: Mm hmm, wow, you know what, I love you so much that I am overwhelmingly honored to hear any of that, because you know, I really think you're You're amazing.

01:28:18
Speaker 6: You're you know, your your groove and your whole focus when you play is awesome. You know, the different projects that you get into doing, the films that you're doing, the books, it's just you know, you're just really like very inspiringly all rounded in the stuff that you're doing. So it's it's wonderful because we need we need influences that are positive, not just for right now and right now is always important, but for for the generations coming up. You know, they need people to look up to and to look at and and kind of be able to trace steps of who have done things that push the envelope in in many ways. And and you're one of those people. So you know, I really appreciate it.

01:29:07
Speaker 5: What are you doing?

01:29:08
Speaker 2: Thank you? And yes, yeah I took that compliment. She knows, No, I love compliments anyway, No that I'm taking it in I didn't cringe. Thank you Sydney Blackman Santana for joining us today, Course Love Supreme. I'm paid Bill, Thank you, Lia, thank you, I'm quest Love. Shout out to the crew Jake and uh Britt, Sugar Steve missed a good one and we'll see you next to go around y'all.

01:29:40
Speaker 3: Thank you, Hey, Thank y'all for listening to Quest Love Supreme. This podcast is hosted by an Afro, a mouth, an engineer, and a man with too many jobs aka a Mere quest Love Thompson, Why You, Saint Clair, Sugar, Steve Mandel and unpaid Bill Sherman. The executive producers who get paid the big bucks a mere Ques Thompson, Sean g and Brian Calhoun asked them for money. Produced by the people who do all the real work Britney Benjamin, Jake Payne, and Yes, why you is Saint Clair? Edited by another person who does the real work, Alex Conroy and those who approved the real work. Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown.

01:30:20
Speaker 1: West Slops Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.