Unmasking the Real Cost of Toxicity in Modern Workplaces and Strategies to Combat It - Sarah Devereaux is RightOffTrack | Anya Smith

Anya Smith (00:01.231)
Welcome to another episode of RightOffTrack, where we explore the incredible journeys of individuals who dare to tread on conventional paths. I'm your host Anya Smith. And today we're diving into a story that's as multifaceted as it is inspiring. Meet Sarah Devereaux. She's not just any leadership coach. She's a strategic thinker, a dynamic speaker, and get this, an inspiring farmer. Sarah spent nearly a decade and a half at Google, where she led their executive development programs.

But she didn't just stop there, she took her enormous skillset to the dynamic world of startups. With her superpower of mindful authenticity, she's helping teams work together like a well-oiled machine. But don't let her corporate prowess fool you. Sarah is also rolling up her sleeves in the soil of Michigan, working on building a sustainable farm. It's a plot twist that adds a touch of unexpected to her already compelling narrative. And speaking of narratives, Sarah is deeply committed to helping others craft their own.

particularly women in male-dominated industries. With a heart full of passion and a mind brimming with strategies, she's helping people redefine what leadership and success means to them. So buckle up, because today we're going on a journey that crosses boardrooms and barnyards, all in pursuit of a life that's authentically lived. You don't wanna miss this episode as we unpack the invaluable lessons Sarah has picked up on her diverse path. Let's dive in, welcome Sarah.

Sarah Devereaux (01:27.578)
Oh, thank you so much. Anya, can you just come with me everywhere and do my introductions? That was so, oh my gosh, from boardrooms to barnyards. I've never said that myself. That was great.

Anya Smith (01:31.323)
Yes, yes, absolutely.

Anya Smith (01:39.327)
Take anything you want, take anything you want and just run with fate. But Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. Just a little shout out to Changing Work Collective for introducing us and LinkedIn also for the amazing community that gives an opportunity to just learn about each other's work. And we've had so much fun. We barely started this podcast, to be honest. We were chatting for like 15 minutes almost before even starting. It's like, we should start in. We should actually start doing the work and sharing this with others. So thank you. I'm so delighted to have you here.

Sarah Devereaux (02:09.49)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I know. It was like, we're just shooting the shit. Like, are we, we should record some of this. It's not bad. It's good. Like.

Anya Smith (02:17.879)
Absolutely. You know what caught me before we even connected, you know, one-on-one, I was really drawn to your energy that's palpable even through your LinkedIn post. Like it's so warm and authentic and you take these journeys and lessons from nature, from everything that you're doing even outside of coaching, and then you're adding this little like inspirational learning twist to it. So let's dive in kind of like let's peel your onion and your story a little bit more. I touched a little bit about your corporate career and

Although it's conventional, I do want to maybe chat like, what got you from the corporate world to now you doing kind of your own thing?

Sarah Devereaux (02:55.262)
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, quite a circuitous journey, I would say. So I actually started at Google as a customer support rep. So I used to say, good afternoon. Thank you for calling AdWords. And yeah, I mean, I did chat support. I did email support. I was at the bottom of the barrel. And I worked my way up through Google.

Anya Smith (03:11.029)
Ooh.

Sarah Devereaux (03:21.61)
to doing a variety of different things. So I worked across learning and development. I was doing agency training. I was doing technical training. I was working with our engineering population. I worked with sales folks. And then I moved into building this volunteer learning and teaching network called G2G. So Googler to Googler. And it was literally this whole volunteer like army of Googlers.

who were spending their time teaching and mentoring and creating training programs for each other with literally no compensation for it. So they powered like 85% of Google's learning and development. And the reason that I bring that up is because it was really the first time that I had done a job where I really felt like I was fulfilling a calling. Like I was doing something that really mattered. I was changing.

Anya Smith (04:05.333)
Wow.

Sarah Devereaux (04:19.17)
the way that people were experiencing work. I would talk to G2Gers, as we called them, and they would tell me things like, this is the best part of my job, or this is the thing I look forward to every week or every month, depending on the level of their contribution. I've learned more doing this than I learned in college. It just was this phenomenal experience of making people's lives better. And so when I decided to leave G2G,

Anya Smith (04:36.406)
Wow.

Sarah Devereaux (04:46.062)
and move into the world of executive development at Google for my final few years there. The impetus was really because I wanted to make people's lives better. And I decided that doing that by helping leaders to lead more authentically and to lead more compassionately and to lead with complexity and people positivity in mind was really how I could do that for the largest number of people.

So I decided that leadership coaching, leadership workshops, doing some strategic advisory for people and culture teams, building HR teams that were really focused on people, not necessarily on how we turn the fastest and most shortest term profit. That's what I wanted to do. So I ended up starting my coaching business in 2019 and starting to build it while I was still at Google.

And then when I returned from my second maternity leave in October of 2020, day one, post leave, they fired me. So a little shy of 15 years. And I was part of one of the early smaller groups of layoffs that Google was doing starting in June of 2020, but I was on mat leave. So I didn't get my letter until October. So I left in January.

Anya Smith (05:53.047)
Wow.

Anya Smith (05:58.964)
Hmm.

Anya Smith (06:08.8)
Wow.

Sarah Devereaux (06:11.703)
and moved on to do a startup. So I could get some startup experience so I could also do more than just big tech. I knew I wanted to kind of span, you know, a larger number of companies. Yeah, you looked like you were gonna say something on you.

Anya Smith (06:29.374)
No, I was just shocked.

Sarah Devereaux (06:31.61)
Yeah, I mean, like, I honestly I wasn't because I kind of saw the writing on the wall for a while. To be honest, my shelf life at Google, you know, had kind of like expired several years previously. But, you know, I was really opinionated. And I wasn't really when I was sitting in that meeting, when they fired me, I had about 45 seconds of panic. Then they said that beautiful little word, severance. And I was like, Oh, let's talk about that.

I didn't know we did that. Can you tell me more? And it was really quite a blessing. I always joke that my best two days at Google were the day they hired me and the day they fired me. And that really is true. I don't think I would have broken the golden handcuffs on my own, or at least not fast enough. So I was very lucky to then move into doing this startup, where I was leading up customer success and marketing and business strategy.

Anya Smith (07:17.31)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (07:28.362)
and just learning a ton about go to market and, you know, SaaS revenue and being a pre-revenue SaaS startup and what that looked like and what the playbook was. And it really led me to be able to do more advisory work that was in line with founders and small startup CEOs, which I have found to be incredibly gratifying. And now I'm leaning in full force on my own deal.

And that's been, I mean, it can be lonely sometimes, like thank you changing work, you know, for creating a place where we can like come together and make this journey less lonely. But generally it's been a really phenomenal experience.

Anya Smith (08:02.955)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (08:14.807)
I have a lot to unpack. So if I'm looking down again, I'm taking notes over here. So one thing I want to start with, so I see a lot of focus on leadership coaching. And it's a little intimidating to me because I think, well, how do you teach and inspire these leaders, right? Like how it seems like such a big responsibility. So could you kind of open the curtain for me a little bit? What are like the big things that leaders really focus on or that you focus on in your coaching?

Sarah Devereaux (08:16.459)
Yeah, it'll be good.

Anya Smith (08:43.207)
And how do you stay relevant in that field? Like, and it feels a little intimidating where there's so much and like at stake, it almost feels like, you know, inspiring, motivating these leaders. How do you approach that field?

Sarah Devereaux (08:54.598)
Yeah, I mean, a couple of things there. So one of the things that, you know, there were several, but one of the things that was particularly wonderful about Google's leadership development philosophy is that it was all about consciousness, compassion, and creating better human beings. So we are better leaders when we are better humans. And so all of the things that make us better humans.

So being more curious about the experience of others, being more committed to helping and to solving a problem than to being right or winning an argument, right? Like all of these things that make us better human beings also make us better leaders. And so the idea that I can focus on helping leaders to become more compassionate, more curious, more conscious.

and that's going to impact all of these other people, right? That's why I focus on leadership. It's not because there's something special, like necessarily about leadership, but leaders hold outsized impact on a larger number of people because a lot of people report to them, they have power in those situations. And if they use those powers for good instead of evil, then we increase the number of lives that we are able to improve. And that's what I care about.

I care about improving people's lives. And so I found that with my experience and with my philosophy, that I can do the most good in the world if I focus on leadership. Now, the two things that I focus on the most, I would say, there's like a variety, but if I really drill down to like what's underneath it all, it's about insecurity and trust. So how do I help you?

Anya Smith (10:44.297)
Hmm

Sarah Devereaux (10:47.294)
to deal with and to identify when you're showing up as an insecure leader and when those mechanisms of control that you're implementing with your team are more about you and things that you're scared of and less about your team's capabilities and how can I help you to understand and to be able to practice exercising more trust in the workplace?

and then figuring out what those benefits look like. If I trust more as a leader, if I trust by default versus making somebody earn it, what does that do for the wellbeing, the psychological safety, and the productivity and effectiveness of my team? And the spoiler alert on that is it does a fuck ton. It does a lot.

Anya Smith (11:40.031)
Right.

Sarah Devereaux (11:41.822)
Like if we, you can't discount the amount of power and influence you hold as a leader and the tone that you set. And if you set a tone of curiosity, compassion and consciousness, which is rooted in trust, like you can create a high functioning, well-oiled machine that also creates mental health for your people.

Anya Smith (12:06.669)
You know what comes to mind when we talk about this is that it can be misconstrued to say being vulnerable is something that is a weakness also and like versus being insecure, right? So I think when we think about vulnerability as being maybe seen as a weakness when and then people try to overcompensate that to hide their insecurity. Is that something that you see common and like how does somebody spot maybe or like self-diagnose like or maybe their insecurity is starting to affect them?

as they show up as a leader or even like their productivity, if they're not even a leader role.

Sarah Devereaux (12:38.13)
Yeah, yeah, normally, I'll take that second one first. Normally it starts coming out in like illogical behaviors and illogical like thought patterns where I'll ask about, somebody will be telling me a story, right? A client will be telling me a story about something that happened with their team that they wanna unpack and that they're struggling with. And I'll catch something like in their response to the situation where I'm like, oh, why did you decide to do that?

Or what led you to say this, right? And normally we'll start unpacking the why, like underneath that response or underneath that reaction, and we'll get down to something that is fear-based. And it's like, if we really get down to the core, you did that because you're scared.

not because it was the only option. Like there's some sort of illogical flow that happens that gets us down to a root of fear or of anxiety. And I find that like leaders who are most closed off and who aren't comfortable with vulnerability usually have a higher.

level of fear and anxiety that is actually fueling their responses.

Anya Smith (14:05.999)
That is a very powerful reminder. And I hope people, if they're struggling with something, take this opportunity, like where is this maybe hindering me versus trying to overcompensate with maybe aggressiveness or whatever it is, trying to overcompensate for that insecurity, diving into it. And should we look at insecurity as something like it's a bad thing? I try to see my fear. For example, I'm starting this business and sometimes I'm like, what the F am I doing with my life? Like...

Anya, can you even do this? Like, who are you doing this? And then I don't look at it as a negative anymore. Like fear isn't there to hinder me, it's there to protect me. And I can honor that feeling and sit with it and then work through that. So is there something that we would recommend if somebody is like, oh, you know, maybe I am seeing a little bit of insecurity play out. Should I be suppressing it or what's a healthier way to deal with that?

Sarah Devereaux (14:42.03)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (14:58.334)
Yeah, that's totally fine. And we should never, in my opinion, right? Like there's a lot of different opinions about this stuff. I don't think you can control your emotions. I don't think you can bury your emotions. What I do think you can do is I think you can hold them. And you have a choice about whether or not you wanna hold your emotions subjectively and allow yourself to be subjected to them or whether you wanna hold them objectively and be able to say, okay, I'm scared right now.

Anya Smith (15:06.878)
Yes.

Sarah Devereaux (15:28.366)
I don't like being scared. But what is this trying to tell me? And it's okay that I'm scared. And a lot of other people in the world are also scared when it comes to this type of situation. I'm not alone and I'm going to be okay. And that's like an exercise in self-compassion, right? Like I'm not gonna beat myself up because I'm holding a emotion that I have somehow, some ways, some why, right? Like judged as being bad. No emotion is bad.

Like to your point, I don't think, I think they all can teach us something. And so can I hold it objectively and then can I set it aside so that I'm able to then move forward? I'm not burying it, I'm not even putting it back there. I'm keeping it in my field of vision. The emotion is still here and it's still helpful. But it's no longer a filter that I'm making my decisions through. Now I have a clearer view of the situation, a more objective view of the situation.

And the emotion is a piece of data that helps to inform my next steps instead of being something that's controlling my next steps or controlling my decisions. And I think like with leaders who are feeling insecure, the question that I often ask is like, okay, so how is that then manifesting in the way that you are reacting with other people?

And it could be their team, it could be their family, it could be friends. I mean, it could be all sorts of folks, right? But like, where is that insecurity manifesting and in what way? You know, so are you making other people's lives worse because you're not effectively dealing with insecurity, anxiety, fear, whatever that emotion may be, whatever that potentially destructive emotion may be. And if the answer is yes, I'm making other people's lives less pleasant and worse, then we have something to deal with.

Anya Smith (16:56.8)
Right.

Anya Smith (17:19.443)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, I know it's interesting for me. I had maybe slightly different but similar conversation with a friend and kind of a mentor. When we were talking about I was like, I'm doing all this stuff, you know, I'm really busy. And I'm like, I'm by I can make it work. I can make it work. I can have seven podcasts a week I can make it work. And he asked me like, how are you showing up in those things if you do take it if you do make it work through taking it all on? And maybe

Sarah Devereaux (17:45.59)
Right?

Anya Smith (17:48.595)
For some reason, it's hard for me to just prioritize my self-care just out of like, oh, good, good for me. It would be good for me if I prioritize self-care. But when I take it from that perspective, the thing that I work so hard to create impact, to help others is being hindered by my desire to do it all or take it all on, suppress whatever those needs for reflection, for balance, and also, it's slightly different, but I just think about that too. When we try to make it all work, suppress our feelings like,

push through it without working through it, it actually hinders what we so desperately try to achieve. And the impact we're having and how we show up is probably gonna be less optimal than if we did do the work and prioritize self-care. So that actually works for me to think, oh, this is what makes me actually wanna slow down because am I showing up worse and therefore the quality of what I am trying to achieve is gonna be lower.

Sarah Devereaux (18:27.106)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (18:40.542)
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Are we working through it? Right? Are we working? Oh, what did you say? I just lost it because I was listening to the next thing. Are we working through it or are we... Oh, it was so brilliant. Okay. Everybody go back and... Oh, it was so good. But like, yeah, you're just... You have to work through it and your phrase was better, but you have to work

Anya Smith (18:50.24)
I... Yeah. Well, I'll have to watch the recording. Yeah.

Anya Smith (19:04.607)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (19:09.942)
you know, just trying to get through it, right? Like you get to the other side, like it just doesn't work. And for me, I was like a total self-sacrificing, you know, addict, you know, for the majority of my career. Like I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago that I put up on LinkedIn where I was talking about like, you know, my job sucking me dry and this horrible cycle, you know, where I got into, you know, working my ass off.

Anya Smith (19:11.872)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (19:22.356)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (19:39.798)
and then needing a slightly more expensive vacation or car or pair of shoes or like whatever it was in order to make up for the incredible amount of burnout and exhaustion that I was putting on myself, right? So for me, the question of not like, oh, well, what's the impact on you? Like, what's your wellbeing? Like, et cetera. That never really resonated with me.

Anya Smith (19:57.331)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (20:09.311)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (20:09.45)
because I was just like, I'm fine, I can do it. And like, obviously I was wrong, but it just wasn't breaking through, right? I wasn't getting that breakthrough moment of like, no, Sarah, you need to change the way that you are living your life until a coach asked me what is the impact that this is having on the people around you? And then I was like, oh shit. Like, that's right.

Anya Smith (20:29.373)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (20:34.838)
I need, like that hit home for me where I was like, I am making, my whole purpose in life is to make other people's lives better. That's what I care about. And she hit me right between the eyes when she asked me, are you making other people's lives worse? Like by continuing in this pattern. And it was like, oh, yes I am. And that helped a lot to just like put it in perspective.

Anya Smith (20:59.423)
Isn't it interesting how sometimes, ideally you'd want to be able to take care of yourself because you recognize that desire. But I think it's okay to also say, well, actually this other reflection point about my purpose and how it impacts others, how it impacts the work I'm really trying to accomplish and create value with is being hindered. So whatever helps you, even if you can't, like me, just like, oh, you should do it for yourself. Like, nice, but it hasn't worked for me so far with the A type personality.

Sarah Devereaux (21:04.59)
Of course.

Sarah Devereaux (21:28.446)
Yeah, and sometimes like it's just about finding the right entry point, right? So like one of the things that I am like a total nerd about is complexity theory. I love complexity theory. I think it's like, oh my god, complexity theory and systems thinking and the way that we understand our world and all of these interconnected systems, like just when I started learning about this stuff, like it just totally opened up.

Anya Smith (21:39.857)
Ooh, tell me all about it.

Sarah Devereaux (21:56.434)
so many possibilities for me and the way that I view my world, the way that I view myself, the way that I view family systems, organizations, like all of it. And the thing that I love so much about complexity theory, I mean there's multiple things, but one of the things is that there's this concept of when you're trying to solve a problem, instead of going straight for the knot, right, instead of trying to untie the knot. It's like when you've got a necklace that's tangled.

Anya Smith (22:24.916)
Right.

Sarah Devereaux (22:25.182)
If you go straight for the knot, straight for the center of the knot, it's going to take you forever to get that necklace untangled. You may never get it untangled, but if you work the edges, like if you start doing little experiments and start pulling on the chain here, pulling on the chain there, seeing where you can loosen it, right? So you're testing, you're iterating, you're trying something new, you're testing again. If you can do these small, safe to try experiments and you can learn from them.

Then you can solve way more complex problems than if you go right for the center. So for me, the center of the knot was my own wellbeing and my own mental health and my own sustainability. But I wasn't ready, right? Like I wasn't ready for somebody to say that to me because my self-image was really skewed and it was really distorted. And I believed that I was tough enough. I thought I was tough enough to get through anything.

Anya Smith (23:18.356)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (23:22.07)
I just needed enough recharge time. And the fact that the price of the condo in Hawaii just kept going up, was not a flag at that time for me. Or the fact that I just kept buying more expensive, like the amount of, the quality of the dinner that I needed to go to, suddenly kept escalating, or the price point on a bottle of wine, right? Like I wanted better and better and better.

to make up for how exhausted I was. And they weren't wellbeing practices, it was a dopamine addiction. Because I just needed higher like hits of dopamine in order to get me through the next X number of months until I could take that next vacation or go to that next Michelin star dinner.

Anya Smith (24:04.443)
Yeah. I was waiting for retirement. You know, I'm 30. I can't wait to retire. Or I was thinking, well, when I get the next promotion, then things will be better. When I get that next promotion, then things will be better. And that would be. But one thing I did want to ask you about, one thing I wish I did do earlier on as well, was start building out my path outside of Metta earlier. So I'm curious, a.

Sarah Devereaux (24:11.127)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (24:17.787)
Oh, I know.

Anya Smith (24:32.191)
How did you actually start that? Because it's easy to say, oh, I'll do it later. I would like to do something more. But honestly, I think me having this kind of the boots to my butt finally pushed me to do it. I probably wouldn't have done it quite otherwise. So I'm blessed in that regard. But what actually pushed you to start in that direction, although you didn't really have to?

Sarah Devereaux (24:50.854)
Yeah, I actually so I think I mentioned this earlier that like my sort of shelf life with Google or you know my love affair with Google you know started ending many years before I left, you know. So it was like 2016 when I realized like I this connection that I have with this company is unhealthy. Like I am treating it like you know it loves me just as much as I love it.

And I'm treating it like a family. It is not. It is a transaction. I do work, they give me money for it. Like, and I was treating it as a familial or like intimate relationship. Where like, and when there were moments that were, that felt like they didn't love me, you know, as much as I loved them, it felt like betrayal.

Anya Smith (25:47.577)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (25:50.166)
And there was one particular moment that happened. I was pregnant with my first daughter. And I had always said that after moving to California, that I wanted to move home to Michigan once we decided to start a family. And it had been a few years that we'd been in California. I had a verbal agreement about moving home. And I went in and I said, like, I'm ready to go. And they said, oh, well, the business needs have changed and so you can't go.

And I'm like, well, what do you mean I can't go? I voluntarily came out here, you know, to increase, you know, sort of the perspectives that I was holding and to increase my experience. And you always told me that I could go home. And my VP basically said, you know, I really understand where you're coming from, but you never got it in writing. And that was the moment where I was like, you're right, I didn't, because I was treating you like something you're not.

Anya Smith (26:22.592)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (26:39.443)
Ugh.

Sarah Devereaux (26:45.706)
Like I was treating you like a family member who loves me, and you're not. And that's OK. You know what? I don't actually think that that's a problem. I think it's better. But it was this moment in 2016 where I was like, I need to start thinking about my post-Google life. And if there are experiences that I still want here, and do I want to curate those experiences in order to build.

Anya Smith (26:45.82)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (26:50.785)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (27:13.322)
you know, that post Google career to be as successful as I can. And I honestly don't hold any, you know, resentment, you know, or anything like that. I think it's just, I took, I took 10 years to figure out that like, this is not a marriage and I need, like, and I need to be planning for, you know, when we get divorced. Like, it's just, you don't do that, right? Like when you're in a loving relationship, you don't constantly think about what am I supposed to do when we get divorced? And when you're in a company.

Anya Smith (27:30.867)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (27:39.37)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (27:42.25)
you should be thinking about what's next, because it's a transaction, it's not a relationship. So I got some really good mentoring from some folks who were already doing their own coaching businesses while also having very successful Google careers, and they convinced me to get my certification, start more internal coaching at Google, start teaching more workshops and really focusing on my development. If leadership development...

Anya Smith (28:00.017)
Aww.

Sarah Devereaux (28:08.766)
and leadership development for women in particular was what I wanted, then start crafting your experiences at Google, both inside the company and outside the company, what those development moments look like, to fuel that vision. So I got some really good coaching and really good mentorship from folks who were in Google. And also, I got a coach from outside of Google who focused on women in leadership.

Anya Smith (28:19.104)
Right.

Sarah Devereaux (28:36.806)
And I just started slowly and patiently building experiences that would help me when I left.

Anya Smith (28:45.075)
I love that. You know, it's funny, I was thinking about doing some of this, like when I was, you know, when the layoffs were actually happening, right? So I knew that this could be an option. And one thing that I actually found that you think that, you know, the things are the innovative part of the world, then you can do whatever. But we had to email like, you know, your conflicts email to say, can you do something outside of meta world? Right? So you have to get permission to do things externally, not just for speaking, but if you want to have something on the side.

It also says like, don't consult. You could do a blog, but you know, I was like, oh gosh, like I have to be mindful of also like not getting fired for doing something else, like that I'm trying to build myself out and honestly, as I'm looking into the future, I don't want to be in a situation where I can't build out my personal brand or hinder my own growth, set limits by a different corporate entity. Like I know there's obviously security, perceived security, let's say in that, but like there's so much opportunity when you stop limiting yourself and I don't want to be in that cage anymore.

Sarah Devereaux (29:42.29)
Yeah, oh, absolutely. And I mean, to be quite honest, one of the reasons that I started with coaching was because it was the thing that Google allowed. Like one of our, um, Becky Cotton, look her up, Rebecca Cotton. Uh, I think she's still in Utah. She's incredible. Um, but Becky Cotton, um, was the one, you know, who really started making the business case for people who wanted to get into leadership and executive and career coaching.

Anya Smith (29:51.371)
Huh.

Anya Smith (29:55.275)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (30:10.862)
to be able to do that outside of Google, because the benefit to Google was that it brought in all of these outside experiences that were outside of the Google bubble that allowed us to be better coaches internally at Google too. So it was really a win-win situation. But I really started with coaching because it was allowed. And then I fell in love with it. And I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. Like now that I actually know what I'm doing and I have like training and a certification and I'm not just winging it.

Anya Smith (30:23.499)
Right.

Anya Smith (30:31.444)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (30:40.53)
Like, this is amazing. And that was one of the reasons that when they laid me off and they offered the severance, I decided that I wasn't going to look for another job at Google. I was just going to go. Because the thing that I really wanted to do was strategic advisory work and strategic consulting with people and culture teams and with startup founders. And so I knew that the next thing that was needed was I needed to get into a startup. That I had.

Anya Smith (30:40.554)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (31:09.234)
that experience. And then I could so Google helped me to build that leadership coaching and leadership facilitation and workshop facilitation capability. And then Murmur, which was the startup that I joined after Google, I'm really like up to my game around strategic consulting and business consulting, but with that people first and like people positive lens to it.

Anya Smith (31:37.495)
How did you find that first startup opportunity? Was it something that you were intentionally really seeking out and lavigating like networking relationships or was something more opportunistic?

Sarah Devereaux (31:47.378)
Yeah, more so highly opportunistic. So the startup was founded by a guy, his name's Aaron Dignan. And he wrote a book called Brave New Work, which is excellent. And I would highly recommend. And it's all about self-managed systems and participatory governance. And people positive is his phrase. Thanks for letting me borrow it, Aaron. And complexity conscious is something that he talks about, right? And how do we make decisions about organizational structure?

and about management and about leadership, with these two lenses of people positive and complexity conscious. And so I brought Aaron in to do some consulting work and vendor work at Google. And then when he and I met, we realized that we were like these kindred spirits when it came to all of these philosophies around leadership and organizational design and development. And we became friends. And so when Google.

fired me, I just happened to have, it was right after Matt leave, right? I happened to have a breakfast scheduled with Aaron the following week, because he was like, hey, when you get done with Matt leave, let's make sure to catch up. I'd love, I don't wanna take up your Matt leave time, but let's hang out when you're done. I'm like, cool, I'll do it for the week after I get back to Google. And he's like, okay, great. And so I walk into this little cafe in Boulder, in Boulder, Colorado, and he's sitting there.

And I'm like, how you doing? He goes, you look great, how are you? And I'm like, I'm great, baby's really good. And then I sit down and I go, so Google fired me. I don't know what I'm gonna do next. And he goes, funny story. Remember that idea I told you about last year? He goes, I started a company about it. Why don't you come work for me? So yeah, we just had this wonderful kind of conversation. He was totally fine with me doing outside consulting and outside coaching.

And I just learned a ton from it. It was really, it was a great experience. It ultimately was not like teaching me really what I wanted it to after a few years. I think I learned what I came to learn and it was time to move on. But just like Google, you know, wouldn't trade it. It was a great experience and I learned a massive amount. So going from big tech, if you have the opportunity to even spend like a short stint, you know, in a startup, it's really worth it. I-

Anya Smith (34:12.167)
I completely agree. It's funny that I've talked to people on here who have made the transition and gone back. You know, they've gone to corporate, they've got to start and then accelerate their growth wherever they want to go next, because it's just such an enriching experience. Not probably not for everybody, but I do see a common trend that people make that kind of learning dive. And so you mentioned you now were more aware of like where this is maybe no longer fulfilling you. What was your next step? Because now I see you shining on LinkedIn, like tell me like what's next to happen and

for you now, yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (34:41.29)
Yeah, that was such a good question. So lots of things, right? And my next step today may not be my next step tomorrow. So I'm really a big fan of being open to new opportunities, to being open to possibility. The main thing that drives me is learning and expanding my experiences and expanding my perspective. So if I see something that's not part of the plan, but it's going to drastically expand my perspective.

Anya Smith (34:48.041)
Right.

Sarah Devereaux (35:11.17)
then I'm gonna do it, right? Like a startup was never part of the plan, like not initially, but you know, Erin was there and Erin was like, this would be cool. Here's what you could get out of it. And I'm like, that's awesome. I should do that. You're right. Like, I'm gonna go for it. So I think like, you know, what I wanna do now, I've leaned in pretty fully to leadership coaching. So I have, you know, quite a few coaching clients that are one-on-one coaching clients.

I also have quite a few corporate clients where I coach multiple leaders within their organizations. I would say like across industries, but I would say my primary industries tend to be tech climate. So I have found quite a niche in working with both nonprofit and for-profit organizations that are fighting the climate crisis, as well as manufacturing, which, you know, being a

a Michigander and coming from a very blue collar manufacturing family. That is a, you know, heart-based, you know, sort of industry for me and finance. So the thing that I have found is that it's a lot of industries that tend to be relatively male dominated, somewhat aggressive, sometimes cutthroat, and where women tend to fight.

for a seat at the table. So I coach both men and women, but I do tend to find that like the industries that I coach in tend to be like this more aggressive, you know, sort of space where I can bring like this element of, you know, curiosity and compassion and consciousness, you know, to the approach, I guess, that like I take with these folks. So.

leaning in relatively heavily on the coaching side of things. And then I'm also doing a couple of other things. So a women's leadership workshop with two other ex-Googlers, Stacey Kolangowski and Nicole Patterson, amazing women, really diverse experiences that we all had at Google. So we have some commonalities. But we all had different sort of paths, which has been super interesting.

Sarah Devereaux (37:32.494)
But we're putting together these workshops on transformation for women around how do you really think forward, right? How do you think about that future vision of what you want your life and your career and everything in between, you know, to look like? And what are some of the things that are standing in your way? And how do we work towards that future vision, right? So it's exciting. We're doing the first one at the end of September.

But we're planning on expanding. We've almost sold out, which we are just thrilled about. We've got two spots left. We honestly thought we'd maybe get 50% of it filled and we are at like 90%. So we're thrilled and we're gonna be running at least two, possibly three in 2024. And then the final thing is I'm doing quite a bit of additional strategic consulting and also leadership workshop.

Anya Smith (38:14.26)
Wow.

Sarah Devereaux (38:32.238)
design, so leadership experiences, development experiences. So I'm working with several companies to design or redesign their leadership development curriculum. And then I'm also working with quite a few startups and also kind of like scale-ups. So folks who are in that, you know, maybe 100, 200, 300 person range, and they're planning on scaling to maybe a thousand or more employees over the next 12, 18 months.

Anya Smith (38:54.708)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (39:00.63)
Like how do we build a really solid people first, people focused, you know, culture, HR, you know, people and culture team to really underpin a lot of that scale. So that's been really fun. So I guess like short answer is one-on-one leadership coaching, women's development, leadership workshops, and strategic advisory for people in culture teams at startups and scale ups.

Anya Smith (39:04.897)
Right.

Anya Smith (39:31.063)
I love that you're embracing this because as we know, right now there's, to me, a hindered kind of trust in leadership, especially in big corporate. And I love that there's this focus on the human side of leadership, especially if businesses are developing because as you know, I think Nicholas posted from the Change Your Community that Google's having another layoff right now. And so there's so much, I think, sense of hurt. What do I do as a professional? Where do I go?

And so I hope that your clients build these cultures that empower people and give them a sense of, again, maybe to your point, like maybe it's not family, but still you trust that you're part of something meaningful and that the culture is sustaining and fulfilling you and giving you opportunity for growth.

Sarah Devereaux (40:18.002)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, we here's the thing, right? And this is where like I get on my soapbox a little bit about like corporate, you know, mental health, well being, you know, happiness programs, blah, blah. Those things help. Right? Like being able to have flexibility in your schedule and being able to get a massage and have that subsidized.

and having enough time to work out and eat healthy food. And Google provided some of the healthiest food through their cafe system, and I'm sure Metta did as well. And all that shit is real nice, right? But to quote the McKinsey Health Institute and the huge study that they did last year, we cannot yoga our way out of this shit. I don't think McKinsey said shit, but we can't yoga our way out of this. The deal is...

Anya Smith (40:51.413)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (40:54.943)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (41:10.93)
is that we know what the problem is. We know what causes burnout and it's toxic behavior. And as leaders, we have to step up when we see toxic behavior and we have to stop being accessories. So even if you're not the one, even if you're not the one doing the bullying, if you see somebody bullying, I got bullied by this woman at Google for two years, that was absolutely ridiculous. And I would point out this like ridiculous behavior.

Anya Smith (41:23.125)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (41:39.486)
And my leader, my VP, was so focused on harmony and like perceived harmony, right? Not real harmony, but perceived harmony and conflict avoided that he literally would not do anything about it. And people would tell me, are you doing anything? Like, what's going on with this? This is so blatant and it's so disturbing. I'm like, I can't get them to do anything. So the thing is, is that we know what causes.

Anya Smith (41:47.083)
Right, right.

Sarah Devereaux (42:05.546)
We know what causes all of these issues that we are spending millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars trying to fix. And it's toxic behavior. And it stops and starts with the tone that leaders set. So if I can influence, if I can influence leaders to be more courageous, to be kinder, to be more compassionate, to be more conscious around the environments that they're creating with their organizations, we can...

Anya Smith (42:12.181)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (42:35.27)
I truly believe, and I tend to be quite an optimist. I'm a realist, but I'm also an optimist. I truly believe we can change work. I truly believe we can fix this and we can make this better. We don't have to put up with this. We know what the problem is. And if we could just put on our work gloves and get our arms into the dirt and figure out how to solve it, we have the tools, we just need to get our hands dirty.

Anya Smith (42:40.191)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (42:47.467)
Yeah.

Anya Smith (43:03.111)
Speaking of that, I know I'm just looking at time. I know you have a hard stop with your work, but just for a little bit of time, could we touch a little bit on you as a content creator and you as also a gardener in creating the sustainable farm? I know we don't have a lot of time, but can you maybe share a little bit of like why you decided to start doing this content creation and maybe how doing the sustainable farm has maybe fueled your kind of foundation as you showing up as a leader? If there's any takeaways where you see the draw parallels from that work.

Sarah Devereaux (43:05.906)
Yeah, I know.

Sarah Devereaux (43:29.151)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (43:32.642)
Yeah, oh, thank you so much. I love my farm. So when we decided to leave Colorado and come back to Michigan, we found this little six-acre property outside of Detroit, and it was in this funky little rural area that's surrounded by larger cities. And it's just like this, if you look at it on satellite, it's just like this really funky little green belt.

in between all of this urban sprawl. And so it was, you know, proximate to a lot of diversity and it was approximate to like arts and music and all this stuff, but it still allowed us to create, you know, this more rural lifestyle, which my husband and I were both really excited about. So I come from a long line of farming. My sister owns, you know, a 20 acre horse farm where she does.

you know, chickens and bees and all sorts of stuff. And she's adding sheep and goats and, you know, all kinds of things. My husband's family has been on the same farm in the same location for over 200 years. So we come from long lines of agriculture. And so when we came back to Michigan, we decided that, you know, we were gonna buy this really neglected, crumbling, devastated piece of property.

And we were gonna try to reclaim it. It was amazing, but it was just crumbling. The walls inside the house were rotting. Like, I mean, there was water damage. There was like all kinds of stuff wrong. So tons of like, you know, bug infestations, like rodents. I mean, it was really bad. So we worked on the house. My mom actually helped us work on the house while we were still living in Colorado. And then we came home and we started working on the property.

Anya Smith (45:05.013)
Oof.

Anya Smith (45:14.228)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (45:24.778)
And the thing that we realized in our first year of really working on the property was that all of these things that I was learning, because this is our first time trying to farm, we come from a long line of farmers, but we'd never done it ourselves. And all of these things that I was learning in trying to farm were basically leadership lessons. I was like, if you wanted to learn resilience, try to put something in the ground and make it grow and not die.

Anya Smith (45:36.863)
Right, right.

Anya Smith (45:45.599)
Huh.

Sarah Devereaux (45:52.51)
Like, and it was just like every time we would try to grow something, it's like, there's a new bug. Like, why are there two kinds of strawberry weevils? Why is there one that eats the leaves and one that destroys the roots? And why is the system for getting rid of them different? Like, and it's just like, there's something that's trying to destroy what you're doing literally all the time, because that's how nature works.

Anya Smith (46:14.795)
Yeah, right.

Sarah Devereaux (46:16.226)
There's like a specific bug or there's a specific fungus or there's a bacteria or there's a soil disease. Like there's a new thing trying to destroy everything you're trying to build all the time. And you can either be in constant fear of it or you can embrace and accept like the fact that this is how nature functions and you need to find that balance, you know, between.

functioning like within the system or fighting against the system. And so it teaches resilience and it teaches patience and it teaches, you know, self-compassion. Like you know, I can't tell you the number of things that I fucked up this year that like actually compromised my food supply. And it's like it's very easy to get incredibly down on myself and get very judgmental and I just have to put my hands on my heart.

and say, I'm learning, you're learning, Sarah, it's okay. And now you've learned, now you've learned how to get more than four eggplant out of six plants. I should have gotten like 60, I got four because I didn't, I literally didn't, oh, and they looked awful. I literally did not realize that I had this particular type of tiny little beetle.

Anya Smith (47:30.471)
Hole 4 is more than zero.

Sarah Devereaux (47:43.798)
that was destroying the eggplants underneath the soil. I didn't realize that that's not how the leaves should have looked. I thought they were fine until it was too late. So I could have prevented it, but I didn't because I missed the signs, right? But now I know what the signs are and I'm gonna get a lot of, I'm gonna have beautiful eggplant next year. So the thing that really inspired me to start creating more content, both farming related and otherwise,

was that I was just, I was realizing how much better of a leader and how much better of a person I was becoming by trying to grow things and by trying to farm and trying to be more sustainable. And like all of this and the learning curve was just so much faster. And when something's gonna die, it requires like...

much faster learning and development, the stakes are really a lot higher than when some executive might just not like the font within your presentation, you know what I'm saying? Like we're talking about like real stuff, like actual issues with food production, not whether or not someone prefers one shade of blue over another in the UI mockup. Like that's not a real life or death situation. So I think like it taught me.

Anya Smith (48:43.338)
Yeah.

Sarah Devereaux (49:07.442)
all of these things at such a higher rate of speed that I wanted to share more of that as I was going through that learning experience.

Anya Smith (49:18.839)
And I love your content and I'm mindful of the time. So to wrap up, I'm gonna post all the links of about where you are and where people contact you, but do you wanna share anything about what people should look out for and what should they be looking out for in terms of your workshops, in terms of your content?

Sarah Devereaux (49:34.014)
Yeah, so I am really active on LinkedIn. I am getting even more active. I have been a social media conscientious objector for a really long time. And I think that LinkedIn is an incredible way of building a network and building community across different groups of professionals. So I really, really enjoyed that. So please follow me on LinkedIn. Please interact with the content. Let me know what you think. Good, bad, indifferent, whatever.

It's all feedback, it's all helpful. You can find me at thirdcoastcoaching.com. So that's an homage to my beautiful state of Michigan. And you can also find me at White Pine Leadership, which is also the group of amazing women who I am working with to host our retreats, both this year and next year. So I announce everything over LinkedIn, but you can also check back.

Anya Smith (50:28.722)
Love it.

Sarah Devereaux (50:31.007)
at White Pine Leadership and Third Coast Coaching if you want to keep tabs on what's new.

Anya Smith (50:37.047)
I love it. I'm going to post all the links in there. And Sarah, I appreciate you sharing your wisdom to help us grow. And check out Sarah's LinkedIn where she shares all of her garden stories, all of her fruits and labors that are going into leadership development and this amazing development in her farm and, you know, see how her next harvest plays out and we'll be rooting for you along the way. And last but not least, just before you let you go, we have three rapid fire questions and then I will let you go. Is that sound good? Okay.

Sarah Devereaux (50:57.326)
So thank you.

Sarah Devereaux (51:04.334)
Perfect.

Anya Smith (51:06.747)
Let's go. I actually was thinking of you when we had this pre-conversion. So first and foremost, last thing you binge watched.

Sarah Devereaux (51:17.686)
Oh, unstable. I really, yeah, on Netflix with Rob Lowe, I really love watching things that kind of make fun of like the tech industry or adjacent to the tech industry. I just, it's very cathartic. Like I love Silicon Valley, I've watched it twice. So yeah, unstable.

Anya Smith (51:19.467)
staple.

Anya Smith (51:41.913)
Favorite thing to grow on your farm?

Sarah Devereaux (51:44.37)
Ooh, ooh, that's so hard. Oh, that's so hard. Tomatoes. I love my tomatoes. They're seven feet tall.

Anya Smith (51:51.467)
I like how you smell, like I like how your fingers smell after tomatoes. I don't know. The fresh tomato smell. Okay. Last but not least in the positive context going off track is.

Sarah Devereaux (51:53.981)
Oh, so nice.

Sarah Devereaux (52:01.266)
Oh, oh. The best decision I never knew I needed to make.

Anya Smith (52:09.407)
Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, Sarah, this is amazing. Again, I love your energy. The moment we met, I was like, okay, Sarah, let's be friends. And then following your content, I'm learning so much. It inspires me to draw inspiration again from nature and from your own experience that feels like, oh yeah, that makes sense. I can take that into my life no matter where I'm at in my leadership journey, self-reflecting. And for our audience, I hope you had a lot of valuable takeaways that help you on your journey. Let us know what questions came up for you. Share on social.

What were your biggest takeaways? And as always, thank you so much for coming off track with us. And Sarah, thank you so much for joining our journey until we meet again. Take care.