What is the KEY to UNLOCKING sales potential? -Torrin Minutillo is RightOffTrack | Anya Smith

every challenge that we face
generally shows up as a surface problem
not as the real core problem
so one of the skills
fact it's a
it's a skill in
an understanding on how to connect with people better
is that to understand them at a deep core level
so person with a challenge
they'll talk to you initially
based on what their surface problem is
because most people are wearing a mask
and they wanna protect themselves from the world
so they're gonna show up with a surface problem
the challenge for us to connect batteries
to understand that
what's the real core problem that sits at least one
potentially two layers below that
and when one
one human talking to another human
feels understood at the core problem
versus the surface problem
we connect the whole lot better
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right off track
enjoy this episode
going off track is taking a chance in yourself
following your poles of curiosity
it's making your own decisions
the most wonderful adventure
hey friends
I'm your host Anya Smith
in today's episode
we're joined by Torn Minutillo
a seasoned business veteran
whose journey of 34 years began in an error
preceding our digital world
torn has crafted an innovative sales method
that intricately
weaves together human behavior and strategic
business practices
his approach
high level selling
where art meets science
provides rich insights
for entrepreneurs looking to refine their sales tactic
and fulfill their visions
and so I'm excited to welcome torn
thanks and you're nice to be here
I appreciate the opportunity
and where in the world are you
just for our guests to know
ah yes I'm in the south west corner of Australia
so um the city is Perth
so just south of the city of Perth so quite
quite a large city of approximately 2 million people
um but yeah
in probably the
one of the most isolated cities on the planet
which has its good
has its benefits
ha ha ha ha
no unexpected people coming to see you
baby Lord no
thank you so much
for joining me from another part of the world
and I always like to give
people space to share their own story a little bit more
I gave a little bit of a blurb
but tell me you know
how have you found your passion
having this long career
and what was the journey like along the way
well that's a big question
and yeah ha ha
um so it's 30
34 years um yeah
I think my uh
probably passion or original drive as a young person
to autonomously run my own
um you know
my own career
my own pathway
take control of my own destiny
and I think for me
it became pretty
obvious to me that business
was gonna be a path that I wanted to take um
as a you know
as in my working life um
and ha I think
it was more the fact that I just wanted to
autonomously run my own show
and I didn't necessarily wanna work for other people
that sort of was the embryo
if you like
um but yeah
I think as it's gone on
um like everybody who's been in a long business journey
there's no straight line to success
it's pretty much a zigzag path
and hopefully you slowly
incrementally grow and move further ahead and um
and my story is no different um
lots of UPS and downs
particularly in the first phase
and then uh yeah uh
I stumbled in 2008
around about 20 years into my business journey
2008 global financial crisis
as when was my reckoning time
I suppose and leading up to that
from the outside looking in
it would seem that things were pretty good
and I thought
I thought they were
and by levels of success
uh I was doing pretty well
um but yeah
that three year period
really rock me back on my feet from 2008 2,011
so my story is one of sort of pre
global financial crisis
and then one after
sort of since then
and potentially
you could say it was my resurrection
and to where I'm now
and so looking back
from that Vantage point to where I'm now
um I never thought I'd have the success I have now
back then that
the time I was just really about
survive and get through
um and yeah
and my turnaround really was around um
you're taking responsibility for
my own destiny
really and uh
there's a couple of
lots of different moments in that time
uh in that three year struggle between 2008
2,011 um couple
couple stick out
and one in particular was
just to sort of
attitude change
that I went to this I
I mean real estate
so I haven't mentioned that
but I've um
got a real estate company that I've
been involved uh
now for 23 years
um but around about 2,011 um
I went to a seminar
real estate seminar
there was a chapter uh
was presenting
which was uh
quite well known
Australian real estate agent
and he got up on stage and said um
a lot of things but
uh in an hour
but one thing that stood out to me was um
that he as an organization
decided they weren't gonna participate
in the global financial crisis
and that really struck me as
I just an attitude thing right like
so you either
you either get stuck in the world
what's going on
or you take control of your own attitude and
and so that was one of the key catalyst that
got me thinking
that well yeah
I can just take responsibility from where I
and if I do that
then I'm in control of
moving forward and
so that lead me down a pathway of learning more about
um myself and self development
or went into that
became a bit of a student
of that and then became pretty obsessive about it
because as I implemented a lot of things that I
was learning
I started to get
exponential
um results very quickly
and sort of
so from 2,011 through to
you know the next five
six year period
I just kept growing
month on March
quarter on quarter um
yeah and now
like I've built a business
now where I pretty much
extract myself out of that
so on that journey
I Learned to a
a huge amount around human behaviour
because they kinda real
student of that
of the human condition
and I use that
all in my business journey and um
so I like to think about it now as
um that the
I connect the human
experience with
the business experience
rather than separate it
and I think
um and and um
really the um
what underpins that is that
the business experience is just a field of
endeavor that you
choose to go into
but the human experience
underlies everything we do
and when we pay
attention to that
and bring that to
the business experience
like any field of endeavor
you get much better results
because you
understand yourself better
and you understand the
people around you better
and you then potentially can
make more sales or
build better relationships
which is what business is
all about so yes
I think you know
that's pretty much a little snapshot of my 34 years
in business
to where I am now
to see this as I said
a lot of UPS
and downs along the way
but certainly the last
eleven years
since 2,012
13 to now um
it's been one of
sort of upward growth
I have no too many downs
it's just been
constant building
each year so
so that's my story Daniel
I love it there's so many points I wanna hit on
but one I'm gonna start with is
you mentioned that you had this epiphany
that mindset is very important
and I'm curious
what actions
did you start taking once you had that realisation
because you know
you already started something you know
obviously um
you were making subtraction challenges happened yeah
but what specific
actions do you start taking for yourself
and like what maybe examples of changes that happened
once you adopted this change
yeah yeah look
I think the
the No. 1 thing in this is
easier on reflection now than when you're in it
but becoming really self aware of why
you are getting the results you getting
why you behaving the way you behave
why you making the decisions that you're making um
and I and I really
in a space of you know
what seemed like a long time
that was probably two to three to four months
got really curious about the fact that every
every decision I made had an impact on my results
and what was causing my
results was how I was seeing the world around me
and how I was reacting to that
so it's just really becoming self aware of myself
so now I tell
um you know
cause I'm business coach now
and help other people in their business mind
as well as um
my real estate company
and one of the things I say to people is that
self awareness is like the number one skill in business
is really becoming aware of why you do what you do
why you're not getting what you're getting
and an interesting I found about that and you is that
we as business owners and people in general
tend to try and figure everybody else out
what they're doing
so we can take advantage of that
or move our way in life
but we don't think about how to work ourselves out
and what I found is that when I started and I was
I was guilty of that as well
and when I started just working on myself
and understanding why I did what I did
I actually started to understand the
people around me a lot better as well
because you know
the human experiences
which I've come to understand and learn
is that we all live the human experiences
UPS and downs
we're driven by emotions
you know all
all the things that we do so um
there's patterns there
and if you understand your own patterns
there's a good chance
you might understand the patterns around
and then when you can connect better
which is what our nervous system is built to do
if we allow it to
um then um then we have much better connections
I think for me
it was really that
self awareness
I really went deep into that
um to understand
what was driving my results
and cause that let me down
a whole lot of learning past
about all sorts of different ways
about you know
I got right into neuroscience
neurobiology
our neurology
the history of that
how we've evolved as humans
that's all part of understanding
the human experience of um
why we revolt
for the beings that we are now
and as I said
that kept helping me connect with other people
and you know
particularly in the real estate business
over the years that's
that's a good asset to have
to be able to connect with other people
and be able to help them through
like any business
fixing their problems
you gotta understand people to the deeper level so
so yeah I think I'd say that the one catalyst
if I had to put yeah
there's lots of things um
but one main thing is I would encourage
everybody is to go on a journey of self discovery
and understand yourself
know thyself um
which is a famous
you know biblical term
no thyself and
and it's so true that it's
it's part of the self awareness journey and and
and then for me
probably the other
bit to that um
is realising that you either
all of us either have a what
psychologist would call an internal locus of control
or an external locus of control
which basically mean yeah
which which basically means that
you're relying on things outside your control
to drive your destiny
or if you got a internal lack of self control
everything within
you is gonna make a decision to drive your destiny
and I think once you become self aware
that potentially you're in the blame game
everybody else is causing your problems
the world the economy
the the government
the fill in the blank
that's an external locus of control
where you're being controlled by what your environment
versus an internal locus of control is
I'm gonna do
be disciplined
have courage to push through
do the things I need to
do to achieve what I wanna achieve
and interestingly enough
as you grow um
the more you can have an internal locus of control
the better your results
get and the better you connect with other people
and so that's an observation that I've made
so those two things
self awareness
and really understanding that inter
and then when you meet someone
you now know
within a space of five minutes
when you understand this
whether they have an internal locus of control
or an external one
and maybe as a business person
you are more adaptable and can work with people
who have an internal locus control because
they make decisions based on their destiny
not what everybody else says
so it's actually a pathway
to understanding
connecting with people that are
going to work with you
and not against you um
when you understand that
you can make better connections
and then make better business
decisions so it's
it's all looped um
and it and it's uh
it's been one of my foundational
um benefits
I suppose you could
say I love it
there's so many things that
I wanna unpack here as well
so one important thing is to realize that
we're humans
and we don't stop being humans when we start
you know doing business
that we have to remember that sometimes about like oh
we're not human anymore we don't get sick
we don't get tired
we just show up in our Polish suits
and we pretend to be a certain way
and that's you know
that has this place
perhaps well
a lot of times
we forget that we still need to be humans
and how we interact and connect the people
Israeli was gonna make the big difference long term
and then you mention the element about how pivotal
the crisis part of your life has been
and I'm sure that a lot of people listening
can relate to that
whether it's because of the pandemic happening
or because they have other experiences
currently or past in their life
and so when you talk about having this um
self awareness right
um that that was a game changer for you
are there any pieces of practical advice for
our listeners
maybe the ones that you also give to your client
that have helped people not just have this aha moment
but then to actually keep implementing that
in their life
yeah it's a it's a uh
it's a constant challenge um I mean
I would like to think that I'm pretty well developed
and I understand myself
but it doesn't mean um
on a day to day basis
I don't get challenged around this right
so I think one of the key
so having that day
I mentioned
when I listen to that chat talk on stage and
and his attitude was um
if you remember that stories like well
we didn't participate
we decide as an organization
we weren't gonna participate in
the global financial crisis
so you can add whatever you want
you know covid pandemic
economic crisis
what a stock market crash you can
you can add in whatever
um crisis wherever you're at
yeah exactly um
and and I think that when
when I heard that
it really shifted my attitude and
and one of the first things I learnt
around the human study
which I now share with my clients a lot um
or to think this way is um
I can't remember the name of the person who coined
I think is an Innes or someone like that but uh
it's that we don't see things as they are
we see things as we are
so what so what
so what that means is that um
we gotta stop and reflect every time
is it my bias that's
coming through here
am I really seeing the situation or the circumstance
the challenge of what it really is
or am I seeing it through my conditioned
behaviours over a long period of time
and when you got that level of awareness
and understand that
almost all the time
we do see things for our natural bias
we see things as we are
not as they are
and when you
stop yourself and go okay
let me think about it now from a different perspective
and actually see things as they are
you start to see things that you normally wouldn't see
and therefore
you see other people's point
of view you understand that the challenge is better
you figure out a way to sort of
to work through whatever challenge or problem
you might have better
because you now not just fixated by seeing it through
your own mindset
which is again
a human experience is a natural thing to do that
we all condition
our belief systems
all things that we grow up with
our value systems to see things in a certain way
which means that you become less tolerant
to what's really happening in front of you so
so I think one of the skill sets
and it is a skill to
stop yourself and understand and just
and you know
like it's for me
I might as well have a tattooed on my forehead
because I I just
I just think about this all the time
it just comes up in everyday life that yeah
with people that I'm meeting
and if I'm having a challenge with someone
I just take a pause and go well
they're not seeing things as they are
they're seeing things as they
as they see it
is that who they are
and when you take that attitude towards it
you got a better chance of connecting with them
and get it to see
your point of view and potentially influence and and
uh you know
make them compliant with what it is that you wanna
them to help you with
whatever that may be
in business
we know that there's
there's always a challenge around the corner
everyday in business
oh absolutely
plenty of them happening along the way
and plenty will keep happening
two things come to mind when you mention that
in my recent journey
I realized that there is
a disconnect that I had between my logical perception
also like wow
I'm showing up
and then the emotional side
I was realizing that
maybe I didn't reflect on like
how much compassion am I actually having for myself
in my experiences
like how much
and that correlates
how much compassion I can have to other people as well
and when you have compassion
you can also look at things more objectively
in my opinion
and I realized also that here
I thought you know
I have some you know
some challenging past periods
and I was like okay
but I'm not showing up as a victim
like I thought
this does not define me
and I realized that when I am actually stressed
those are the first responses that are coming out of me
you know and that was through coaching
what not so
it's interesting
sometimes we can have this
rational idea of like who
how we show up
and what's serving us
and be like oh
that's really
working really well
but I'm finding through my journey that
it is all sensory
to take that space
for self reflection
and healing
to really connective
like how does
how am I truly showing up
if I'm being
raw and honest with myself
if I'm actually feeling the energy
versus just logically
observing it
and that has helped me show up
more objectively
I believe in the world
and then to
your second point
I think a lot of times
we look at other
people like
I wanna change you
if only you
can be different
and what gives me actually caught
what gives me actually hoping that is that
the way change happens is that you change yourself
so if you are really
really feeling this desire to change other people
the way you're gonna do is that by changing yourself
because then you're
you can have a different perspective
like what's possible
and if the changes
actually ever gonna happen for other people
it's because they're gonna see you
and have some kind of different shift
because they see you growing or changing
and they'll have a certain opinion about their certain
perspective
and that will influence them change um
what are your perspectives on that
like how do you actually help
you know um
have this inner reflection
you know and maybe
do you see any separation between our logical side
and maybe a deeper emotional side
oh okay how long have you got
ha ha ha cause now it's
it's bring it on
bring it on now
I love the question
because it's right in my wheelhouse of um
how I see the world now
never used to
but certainly as I've evolved
like to come to understand
that emotions is driving everything right
so how we feel
drives how we think
and then how we think then can
then can drive your emotions
but the neurology or our
who we are as human beings
how we've evolved um
it's our nervous system
it's reacting with feeling first
which sends a signal to our brain
that then causes a reaction um
and so those feelings
as they grow within us
they then evolve into what we know as emotion
whether that's fear
whether that's happiness
sadness whatever it may be
disappointment
frustration
they're all
they're all emotions
but I starts with a feeling
which then if we
cultivate that with rumination or thought
it develops into something more
and then at the
the let's say the um
the end of emotion on the negative side
you get angry
and you know
that then leads into that
once you get into that state your
your neo cortex
your thinking brain shuts down
and you don't even know what
what's going on right
so so the reason I preface that is
so a technique or a tool is to understand comfort grips
and this is challenging for a lot of people
and certainly was for me
is to understand how much emotions is driving
everything we do um
and people say to me uh yeah
but I'm not emotional
I'm a logical thinker
um got some bad news for you is that
if you if you say that you're a logical thinker
the reason you're a logical thinker is because
you processing things that way makes you feel safe
and the reason that
you feel safe is because of a feeling that's created
that if I think logically through this
that's gonna make me feel safe
that's a feeling
so it's actually driven by emotion
why people become logical thinkers
so um so it's not like you're either one or the other
you are an emotional being
you just express that
safety through logical thinking
because that's what keeps you safe
because ultimately
our nervous system is built for two things
to keep us safe
and to connect with other humans
otherwise we would never survive
and thrive for
60 odd million years as a
to what we've developed as a
our brain structure in our nervous system now
cause it's developed through a whole bunch of things
but so in a way to
really understand this is that the emotional system
has been developing for sixty odd million years
to the structure that we have now
the limbic system
the reptilian system
but the the higher order brain is only developed in
the last hundred hundred and ten thousand years
so in comparison
it's not even the half of the page
at the end of the book
that we've learnt to logically think through stuff
so if you got any doubt about this is that
the emotional system is so strong within us
that drives everything we think
and do that
when you get into a situation
in business
or wherever it is
the better question to stop yourself is
why am I feeling this way
creator create a circuit around
stopping to think
why am I feeling sad
why am I feeling disappointed
why am I feeling frustrated
and um Doctor
Joan Rosenberg
who's a genius in this field
forty year psychologist
um hope I got that right
Joan uh and um
she's written a great book
about the 90 seconds to a Better life
which basically tells us
that an emotion will last for 90
seconds within our
the feelings
or the chemical reaction
within our body
and dissipate within 90 seconds
if we allow it to
if we fuel it
with thought
and more anger
and more sadness and more
it'll just keep on growing
and growing
and potentially last for a day
a week a month
years and so on
so if we learn
and I hardly would recommend that book
just look up John Rosenberg
and uh um and
because it's
really changes
the way you think about
how we behave
and how we react
versus responding
to life situations
so reacting is
the emotions
are reacting to it
whereas considered response
is time to stop think
be considered
allowing that chemical reaction within
your bloodstream to
dissipate so
now you can
engage your high order brain
um to think through what
the response needs to be
now personal thing
I've never read this in a book
but I I I believe that um
our high order brain
110,000 years ago
thereabouts
was developed
purely to control
our emotional system
it's it's been
it was was it was a
developed and evolved within us
so we can actually keep control of
our emotional system
so that we can um
function better as a
as a human race as a
as we've evolved over
the last hundred
but that's another big topic
that's just a theory
it's not my own theory
on that one
thank you for sharing the theory
and the practical things
one thing that I want to also share is okay
when we talk about you know
think about your emotions and then take a pause
I I don't personally believe we should suppress
our emotions
so I want to be clear that when we talk about that
it's not saying hey
I'm not gonna feel them
but it's saying we're not gonna give them more power
I think that's the difference that people have
is that they think that they need to
either stop feeling or just give in to them fully uh
meaning like
you know just like
give them more energy and kind of heighten them up
and I found the balance
for myself is just to fully feel that emotion
give it compassion and love
and that gives a space to just
you know come in
I'm not pushing you out
but I'm not asking to stay
I'm just letting you be there
for as long as you need to
easily let go right yeah
so open door policy
open exit door yeah
now I need just to be really clear about that um
so as I said
if you read the book
it'll explain much better than probably I can
or I have so far
and that is
is that what Joan says
is that we create a whole bunch of stuff in
our life that actually avoids you feeling that feeling
so what I'm saying is
feel the feeling
but allow it to come through
so you can recognise what is it
why have I got it
otherwise don't suppress it
um feel it and certainly don't avoid it by
creating a whole bunch of um
activities in our life
whether it be substance abuse
or whether it be workaholic
or whether it's a distraction
so John calls it
we create all these distractions
so we don't feel the feeling
and then cause
if you don't feel it
just keeps growing it
and you don't allow dissipate
you just suppress it
and eventually it bottles up
and it shows up when you least want it to
and then causes you more pain
so um yeah so
I suppose the point I was trying to make here is that
you know from the
you know from your question
is that really how much
emotions plays in everything we do
and the more we can understand that
in business
about the human experience
cause this is what I mean about connecting
the human experience to business experience
everybody whether they're working with us
whether we're trying to help them as our clients
and customers
they're all living the human experience
and they're all being driven by this emotional
um you know
emotional drives that we all have within us
uh they just show up a whole bunch of different ways
depending on your conditioning
your your you know
how you were growing up
and a whole bunch of other stuff
traumas and all sorts of different things
that happened to us
but the point is
understanding that
emotions are driving pretty much everything so
um you know
the intellectual side
yes it's there to help us navigate the world
to make sense of things
but you really gotta stop and understand that
underneath all that is
the emotions that are driving everything we do
and then when you embrace that
and you use it
as a power well
it's sort of superpower
because it's um
not something that you can choose to
tune into or not
the feelings and emotions will come over you
the challenge is to work out
how to respond to them better
how do you manage them better
how do you become a more emotionally regulated
how to become more emotionally resilient
and in business again
one of my super skills has become to become
very emotionally
resilient to all the UPS and downs
and certainly in 2008
I wasn't ready
and I wasn't evolved enough to understand that
and the sometimes it takes something like that
for you to actually stop and think inwardly and again
I've studied a lot of high performance
people on the planet in my search of
how to help other people
and in their story
there's often
a situation
the people who have achieved high things
where there has been a moment of reckoning
where they've gone inwardly to actually search
for what is the answers that's gonna help me
so it's not
uncommon for people
who have achieved high things in life
that that's
been a shift
the catalyst
something's happened
epiphany or whatever it is
that made them think inwardly
and if you look now
the people who say they're not successful
they haven't achieved
they've got this locus
external locus of control
the majority of them
and that's just a um
that's a general general um
what's the word
a um generality
so it's not
I'm not saying that's
for everybody
but that is a common thread
is that people
who don't get what they want in life is often
because they've got an external locus of control
they're not taking control of their own destiny
because they're not looking inwardly
to who they are
yeah absolutely
that reminds me of my own callous
because I started this podcast as
a after bath of being laid
off for meta
and there's definitely a time where initially it was
terrifying to be like
oh everything that I've done
you know my identity is tied to this
and now I'm recently different
and I'm so grateful for this
I'm so grateful for this
opportunity
it has really started this
point of reflection of who I am for myself
what do I wanna do in the world
what are my real limits
and I'm sure
including everybody
including myself
would wanna know
what are some of those
tips or practice that
you do to be resilient
you mentioned there's some things that
you've Learned
and now you
pride yourself in that skill
yep um yeah
it's a it's a it's a
it's a good question
it's a there's no easy
straight out answer of course
but I think
um one of the
approaches for that is to
understand because of that
emotional reaction that most
people have
is that every challenge that we face
generally shows up as a surface problem
not as the real core problem
so one of the skills
fact it's a
it's a skill in
an understanding on
how to connect with
people better
and how to um
help them in sales
is that to understand them
at a deep core level
so person with a challenge
or just use this as an example
person has a challenge in business
or whatever it is that
you might be able to help them with
they'll talk to you
initially based on what their surface problem is
because most people
are wearing a mask
and they wanna
protect themselves
from the world
so they're gonna show up with
a surface problem
the challenge
for us to connect batteries
to understand that
what's the real core
problem that sits
at least one
potentially two
layers below that
and when one
1 human talking to another human
feels understood
cause that's
one of our human addictions
we wanna feel understood
feels understood
at the core problem
versus the surface problem
we connect a whole lot better
and even though the
the remedy to what it is
the challenge that
you have may sit
at the surface level
the thing is that we wanna be understood
at a core level
so if I'm having a
conversation with
you about a challenge I've got
and we talk
at a surface level
you might have an answer for that
but when you
understand my challenge
at the core
level which is
cause I'm now
I'm really connecting with
you and I go
and you really
makes me feel understood
so I'm gonna lower my guard
and I'm gonna
trust her because I feel safe
because that's a feeling that
makes me feel good
and I know that
she can help me evolve
and solve my problem
but if we deal
at the surface problem
so one of the
one of the um
so if we deal
at the surface problem
we get surface level answers
we don't or or or
um responses
so one of the challenges
from a Sal's perspective and
any endeavour in connecting with another human being
which Sal's
what predominant
underlies a good sales process
is understanding
the person's challenge
at a core level
and knowing that
the person will only
ever present
in any situation
initially with their surface
level problem
so if we can get this
in our day to
day when we're
trying to connect with other humans
is that how
do we go from
the surface level to
the core level
that's just being present
making her feel understood
asking you know
better questions
get them to
express themselves
and they will then start to tell
you what the core
problem really is
because now
they're starting to feel
understood does that
does that make
sense is um
from from a perspective of
how to connect better with
people yes yes
absolutely so
honouring that I mean
bigger curiosity
about not just what
the person is saying
but maybe what's
the underlying
theme of what they are saying
maybe also honoring
the feelings
a lot of times
what we feel is
coming through
through our
energy and just
our body language
and not just what we
are saying so
being attuned to
all of that
and I would imagine
that takes also
stepping away from your
you know cell
and just focusing on
the other person
right so if
you were just like
okay I need
to say this line
I need to sell this
and when to make
the point Z
you're probably
not gonna have
the space to fully
have that attention
and presence
on the other
person right
yeah well I think
comes back to
the intellectual versus
the emotional right
so when we try
and intellectualize
all these processes
because we think
uh we are connecting at the
um higher order
brain level
in other words
of the bit that we
commute you
how we use to communicate
words back and
forth but really
the connections made
at the nervous system
emotional level
and so going back to
how do you connect
with someone
at a core level
and deeper is
when you actually listen to their words
and you're trained to
listen beyond
what's being said
they'll often be words
that are being repeated
in what people are saying
that is really
their internal emotions
expressing themselves
but if you're
not attuned
and not present
to listen to those
you'll only hear
the surface level stuff
because we as the person
who doesn't
listen well
is listening to respond
and not listening to
understand so
when I'm talking to you
and if I'm trying to
understand you
at a deep level
if you start
saying things to me
at the surface level
my mind starts to tune into
how am I gonna
respond to this
so when there's a gap
I'll say something
and you're missing
the words that have been said
to make that
person really
feel understood
at a core level
so I'm actually
giving you here
the core of
my selling process here
and how to understand
is that when
you understand
someone at a
deeper level
you got a chance of
shifting their
emotional state
from a negative
to a positive
and there's
always tension in
the sales process
as there is
in lot of connection
particularly
someone new
when you can
shift them into a
positive emotional
state from a
potentially negative
emotional state
they're more likely
to feel well
they will still feel
safe with you
but they're
more likely
be compliant
and influenced
the only way
you can do that
is if they feel
understood at
the core level of
whatever their challenge
really is um
and there's a
whole bunch of things
that you can do
to help shift
that in the
the scientific or the
the neurological thing is
it's called
emotional refraction is where
you actually
can say things
and shift someone's
emotional state
and we do this
all the time
not realising
I might say
something you in a
in a terce tone
about something
that's happened
and you'll interpret that
and that will shift
your emotional state
in a split second
from negative
from positive
to negative
purely because
what I say so
I'm refracting your
emotional state
just by saying something
in a particular tone
or away equally
I can shift someone
from a negative
emotion day
to a positive
by using curious
and pathetic
tones by using
um uh maybe
on short times
in other words
just connecting with them
at a slower pace
because their nervous
system feels safe
and then they start to
open up to you
more you know
what it's like
I can say ask
you a question
like how's your
day today and
yeah versus
how's actually
your day been today
and I'm in a more
empathetic tone
that's gonna
lower your guard
to answer me
whereas the first one
was a little bit oh
I don't know
what to do yeah
what to say
but that's a
bit of a that's a
bit of a jolt
on my nervous system
so you react
in a way and
now you got
two people in
attention situation
or you could be
acting I could
just see that
split moment
the different
thing right
here yeah what
nigga sorry
I was just gonna say to
our audience
who may be thinking
sales well I
don't do sales
this is not really
apply to me
I want to clarify that
sales isn't just about
physically selling something
you are always
selling yourself
because that
you're always
influencing people
so no matter
what you do
you have to
reframe that
and understand
that like me
I had this negative
contation about
influence and sales
it's about you know
manipulating people
getting something
out of it that's
not that's not
the full picture
people can do that
and that's only
people who are looking
probably at
the surface level
if you go deeper
it's about helping people
and sharing message
out into the world
not because you want
you know you
are pushing it
but because
you wanna help
people get better
and so I think that
that when you
show up with
this view of
you are living
of conviction
you have this
purpose that
you believe in
then the influence
becomes like
hey I just wanna help
people see this
I wanted to get better
and so that's
how you grow
your influence
in this showing up
with curiosity
and getting to
a deeper level
is gonna help
you be more
influential
and so it's
something that
you will take away
no matter what you do
every part of
your job if
you are business owner
if you are an
entrepreneur
if you're just
you know student
the influence is
how you connect
with people
and become more
able to have deeper
relationships
with those people
which can be
invaluable whatever
you do yeah
I agree 100%
and I think that
um you know
we we particularly
in business
cause you know
what I would
say about my
observation
around business
owners and I
was no different
is that um lot of
I don't know what
the percentage is
but it's high
let's call it
more than 80% of people
get into business
not because
they're good at sales
it's because
they wanna follow a
passion or a drive of
and they're good
at delivering
their product
or service to
whatever that is
but they're not
they're not good
they're not
necessarily
naturally good
at sales so then
sales becomes
one of those evil
necessities that
you gotta do
to be able to
get your new
business through
the front door
which you do
right because
it's a spearhead of
every business
no sales success
usually means
no business
success um well
there's a very
strong correlation
between the
two but what
ends up happening
you end up doing it
badly because
you feel like
you need to
convince someone
to do something
and my method is
and you're desperate
yeah absolutely
right so this is
the other thing too
is that you know
where I talk in
when I'm teaching
people around
high level selling is about
there's lots
of potholes
that we fall
into and one of
the biggest
potholes is
whose problem
are you solving
are you solving
your problem
because you
need the money
you need the
business and
you're hoping that
your client
your prospect
your customer
is gonna solve
your problem by
giving you money
for a product
or service so that
you can fix
your problem
whatever that is
as opposed to
what they're
interested in is
how you gonna
fix their problem
so when you
drop your own
agenda and you
focus on your
customers agenda
and help them
through a process of
understanding
so the difference
between I see
between influence
and manipulation
cause the two
completely different things
manipulation is
saying the wrong
things to coerce
someone into
doing something
yeah exactly
that's the that's
the evil um
like Doctor
Evil in the
in frost and
powers right
as versus um
influence is
me opening you
up to understand
something that
you haven't
been able to see
that might actually
help you on
the pathway
to whatever
it is you're
trying to achieve
your cause your
goal in life
whatever that
is and this
product or service
that I have
that can solve
that problem
might help you
advance that
cause quicker
to get wherever
you want right
so my job is in fact
I would say
um in selling
really it's about
positioning
so that the
customer actually
makes the sale
because you become
the obvious
choice to solve
their problem
and if you're
in a business
that requires
relationship
to be built
so in other
words relational
selling versus
transactional
that's where
this is most
powerful and
most influential
and the good
news is you
don't have to be a super
salesperson
to do this it's
a skill that
you learn to
probably say
less and allow
your customers
just to actually tell
your clients
customers to tell
you what it is
they want uh
because we have
our own priorities
what we think
people need
or want but we
don't listen to
our clients
priority and
everybody's
got a different
priority and
if we're not
listening to
that priority
they don't feel
understood and
when you think
they're gonna say
yes to your
product or service
their nervous system
and emotions
pops up and says
hang on a minute
I don't feel safe
let's find an
excuse of why
not to go ahead
and that is
can I get back to
you tomorrow
can I ask my brother
my sister my
mother my uncle
my lawyer my
filling the
blank um I'm
not sure yet
I haven't quite
understood everything
and that's that's
the emotional part
not feeling
safe and so
really what's
happening is
you haven't
done a good job
of making that
person feel
safe and in a
positive zone
so they can be
see what it is
you have to offer
that's gonna
help that's
not saying that
hundred percent
of people are
right for you
in fact I would
say that if
you got 80% of
80% of people
are right for you
20 are not but
but we don't
get anywhere near 80%
conversion we
we're lucky well
the industry
averages say
it's between
five and 30
they're right
across every
industry so
I'm trying to
buck that trend
and go what
if you take
this different
approach and
not be so intellectual
become more emotional
you're going
to increase
your conversion
rates dramatically
and that's basically
how I built
the second half
of my business
life through
that method
of connecting
with people
that drop in
my agenda showing
up to serve
understanding
what it is they need
and then growth
comes because
people then
seek you out
and then your
you get repetitive
business um
it just yeah
just grows on
it and look
the other big
thing about it
is that when you
from a business context
um because a
lot of people
aren't good
at sales and
they're good
at delivering their
product or service
they fall into
this trap of
um attracting
lower value clients
people that
maybe they don't
necessarily
wanna work with
so what ends
up happening is
people build a
business by
default and
not by design
how you build
a business by
the design is
when you have
a good sales
process that
attracts high
value clients
so that you
can target high
value clients
who actually value this
you then now
starting to
build a business by
design and not
one by default
and the people that
are burnt out
in business
is because six
seven nine 10
years into it
they've been
building a business
by default that
they're now
not energized
anymore they're
not feeling
passionate about
as much they're
not inspired
to do the work
it's because
they're dealing
with a whole
bunch of people
that aren't
really want to
and one of the
core things is
I've identified
it's just because
you don't have
a good sales
process to actually
seek out and
work with people
that I would consider
a high value
kind versus thing
so the whole
premise of high
level selling is
a way and I
call it west
um where art
meets science
so art is the
actual part
of you know
the strategy
how you position
yourself what
you say the
science is the
connection between me
and you as the
as the client
and the person
delivering that's
the science
that's our emotional
connection that's
the neurobiology
that we need
now the interesting thing
is what I've
observed is that
you can do the
intellectual stuff
super super
super well know
your stuff have
the strategy
and everything
but if you don't do
the emotional connection
the sale will
generally fail
but if you do
a poor job on
the intellectual stuff
but you do really
good job at
the emotional stuff
the Sal will
proceed and
you'll get the
nod over and
above someone
who's presented
so much better
that they just
didn't connect
with so the
evidence you know
I I haven't
come up with
the evidence
cause it's I'm
I'm just a living
example of it
and then my
clients and
people are helping
a good examples
of it um and
so you know
what I would
say to people who
are struggling
with sales conversion
or that maybe
don't like that
part of the
business is
to seek out
some help and
actually find a
natural human
way to connect
and I think
you will find that
you'll start to
embrace it and
really enjoy
cause you can
then play with it
and actually
make good human
connections
and you know
it does take
a little bit of
vulnerability
cause you do
have to drop
all your own concerns
and your own
consequences
but I can tell
you the other
side of it is
is a much better
business life
yes and it also
sounds like
a much better
energy flow
for you as the
salesperson
or somebody
who's trying
to have this
relationship
it sounds a
lot more enjoyable
to have this
perspective
and the long run
and I wanted to
ask we talked
about control
and initially
when you talked about
having that aha
moment of oh
I can be in
control of this
situation that
was empowering
but then we
talked about also
removing some of
the control
meaning like
we're not pushing
for the sale
we're being curious
so how do you
navigate this
balance between
having control
of yourself
but also releasing control
of you know
expectations
about what how
other people
are gonna react
or what's lovely
the outcome
but this is
a brilliant question
thank you um
the challenge is
particularly in a sales environment
or any business environment
is to let go of the consequences of the outcome
that we place ourselves
on the outcomes
so we conjure up all these consequences
about us doing things in business
and whether it's sales
whether it's standing in front of a group and talking
whether it may
be this whole bunch of emotional stuff that happens
and the reason we get in that emotional discomfort
I think is the word
emotional discomfort is best way to describe it
is because of
the consequences that we place on the outcome
which never as bad as you make them out to be
IE if I don't get this sale
my life is going to
fill in the catastrophe right
but on the flip side
if you let go of that outcome
and you drop the consequences
and you don't have tension within it
cause one of the key pillars
of this method is that
you as a person
need to be in a positive emotional state
cause what the neurology says is that
if you're in a negative state
you'll never be able to shift someone into a positive
emotional state
alright you can't
you can't have
a negative person pushing someone into a positive state
that's bullshit alright
so if you start
if you go into position of calming yourself
dropping the consequences
all that sort of stuff
and now you're in a
positive state emotionally self
there's no tension within you
that energy isn't gonna flow
there's more chance yeah
literally there's a line
one side is a negative side
that side is a party side
you wanna get
both people over to the positive side
your starting point
well I need to live on the positive side
now the thing that happens and you
which comes up in
questions for me
is that in the sales process
the connection or whatever it is
is that you get triggered by something that someone
says or whatever that shifts
you back to the negative state
you gotta be mindful of that and go
how do I okay
I've just been triggered
I feel this feeling of
this is not going where I was hoping to go
I forgot that you know
so you've really gotta brace yourself
internally and get you back into that positive state
drop the consequences
be of service
and you'll see
the person starts shifting back towards you
in that positive state so I think
the answer to the question is
from the control perspective
is part of the control
is letting go of control
ha
it's so simple
but so difficult
very very difficult
I've been struggling with it for 30 years but
and it was taught to me exactly that way
the way to get better control over your life is to
let go of controlling everything and
there's many people that we know in our in our circle
and of influence that
that are always looking to control everything again
it's a nervous system reaction to making them feel safe
driven by their neurology and their emotional system
based on their conditioning over their lifetime
and how their coding who they were
how they been their value system their belief system
that have been indoctrinated into them
and it's not an easy thing to shift
but this comes back to self awareness
when you're prepared to
listen to maybe what other people are saying
and so the question I like to ask people is
what you're doing at the moment
is that serving you
not is a good
bad or otherwise
that's that's judgement
is it serving you
and if the answer is yes
it's serving me
keep doing it and go for it
but if the answer is no
it's not really serving me
then you need to figure out
what's the self awareness thing
what's the emotional driver
what's happening within me
that's causing me for this not to serve me
and this the
the how you judge that is it's serving you
is what's the results I'm getting
what's the outcomes I'm getting
do I like those outcomes
whether they're financial
whether they're emotional
whether they're relationships
whatever they are
am I getting the good outcomes I want
therefore it's serving me
if I'm not getting the good outcomes
and you recognise them as bad outcomes
then it means it's not serving you
that's a signal to you is that
I need to go deeper to figure out what's going on here
how am I showing up
why am I making these decisions
and when you're prepared to do that exploration
it's worthwhile
because when you start to shift the way you do things
you change your results
and if you want
if you're sitting there thinking okay well
I'm not happy with what I got in my world
whatever that is
and I wanna
I wanna get us something different
the starting place is looking in the mirror
and starting
becoming a little bit more inward and reflective on
what you're doing and understanding yourself
that it's not an intellectual process
there's another thing right
we spend far too much time tryna
find that intellectual solution
for an emotional problem
that is like yes
yes I agree I agree
it's like trying to use fuel to put out a fire
that's not gonna work
I needed that
I needed that personally
that reflection on control is something that
like a lot of listeners
I'm sure is a struggle for me
and I realized that and again
I've been logically trying to control
haha and um
recently I found that
going inward has been a lot more healing and powerful
so definitely seeing that
that trend is serving better
like he said
yeah and I want to
um give space
I know you were masterfully
putting in some of the insights from your program
the high level selling program
is there anything that we miss that you want to
share before you wrap up
regarding that
you mean well
I think just um
I think we covered fair bit of it um
yeah understanding that there's some pillars there of
essentially what happens in a sales process is
what I would call
like an invisible barrier gets created
between you and the prospect
you and the client that you're trying to serve
because you're staying too intellectual in the process
not saying you don't need to know your stuff
and you need to be able to
serve in a way that helps that person
understand what is your value proposition
that's that's the art of selling that's the
but that's not the hard bit
the hard bit is actually how to connect
which is what I found
what people find is how to connect
and make that person feel could we
we use so we haven't used the word trust yet today
right but every sales guru on the planet will say
that they need to you get
you need to get prospect to know
like and trust you will trust
the the word we use is trust
but what it's really saying is I feel safe
when I feel trust you
it's because I feel safe with you
and that's my nervous system reacting that
here's the tip that I would give around this is that
your prospect
needs to feel known
liked and trusted as well
for them to be out of no
like and trust you
but every sales guru manual that I've ever read
always talks about how you need the prospect to like
and trust you
but there's never any emphasis on
how you need to like
and trust your prospect to make them feel safe
and comfortable with who you are
what you're doing
so if you just did that and focused on
liking and trusting your prospect
your sales conversion will probably go by 20 to 30%
overnight just doing that one thing
because think about it
when you're in a sale situation
do you want the person that's helping you
to trust and like you
or do you want them to go hmm
I don't think they trust me
they're just gonna tell me what I need to hear
but they don't wanna tell me what
the truth is that I need to know
that will create an emotional reaction within you
which will put you into the negative zone
and what they're saying becomes blah
blah blah blah
all you get is the feeling between that person
which doesn't have words
and the intellectual stuff just goes
yep yep yep
but the moment they stop talking
you've already forgotten about what's been said so
the challenge here is that we need to make an
emotional connection
there's a whole bunch of other stuff you can do
trigger emotions
through approval and acceptance
because we're all addicted to that um
and there's a
whole bunch of other stuff that I teach
and share in the programs
around that so
so yeah it's
if you're looking for
so for a different way of selling
I call it high level selling um
where art meets science
because you do need to have the art as well
but that's a skill
it's not a numbers game
it's not a show up 100 times
and hope that five people say yes
that's that's 50 years old
that stuff before we knew
um and look
the other thing too
is that there's so much noise in
the marketplace these days
everybody's guru
everybody's got the answer
that really
people are looking for that connection
that emotional connection
to feel safe
because we know
as life goes on
the more and more complex it becomes
it's harder to make connections with people
and to feel safe
so if you're the person that's doing that
that's gonna be a beacon
to the people that you're trying to serve
because most of our people aren't
I love this
thank you so much for
taking all of your experiences
and then humanizing them
because I think it's so important again
to give people sense of hope
even when maybe they like oh gosh
what can I do now
how can I really connect
it seems like
against overwhelming
or challenging
or emotionally unsettling
and here you're providing this
hope of a different option
that's more authentic
that's to me
feels more energy
healing and more
energy positive
more energy empowering
so thank you so much for sharing that
and where should people find you
so I'll obviously include all the links
but what some
some resources that people should check out
look I think
the easiest
way being that
um you know
it's an international world
here I am in Perth
and you're in the U
S and there's
people probably
all over the world
LinkedIn um
is probably
the only social media that I uh
engage in um
probably the best way to do
I'm I'm of an
older vintage of uh
an era that
had to embrace technology
but yeah LinkedIn
that's the best kind of wine
yeah it gets better as it gets older
ha ha ha and
uh but yeah
let reach out to me LinkedIn
I don't think
you'll find too many
taro in your pillows
um you know
if you Google high level selling
there'll be something
there I I am
I think I sent
you a link today
uh with a just
a page where
people can reach out to me
book a timing to have a
conversation
for 30 minutes
and I'll just
no strings attached
I'm not interested in
you know trying to sell
people stuff
because that's exactly what I teach
it will become natural to people
but I'm but I am
willing to serve
and help and get
people to understand
cause I'm passionate about this
and I think that
the more we
can get people
understanding
that you can serve
people better when
you take this
approach um
and and there's lots of brave
people that go into business
and I believe they are and um
and as I said
80% I would imagine
probably higher than that
don't go into it
because they're
really good at sales
and I thought
alright what
can I adapt this
sales method two
it's usually
they've got a passion about whatever it is they
wanna do or potentially a skill they have
you know whether it's it
whatever it is
you know um
that anything they
can teach will help or serve
or build or
create a product
but they're
not always good
at selling that
so particularly
small to medium sized
businesses you know
up to 50 people
where the key
people are involved in
the sales process
love to talk to them
and help them through this and
see if this
message resonates with them
so yeah reach out
don't be shy
I'm always looking for a
conversation
oh I love this
okay so you've been so generous of your time
and here at
right off track
we wrap up with three rapid fire questions
so let me know when
you're ready
okay I think I'm ready
I'm not sure
okay okay we got this
okay so what's
one common myth about
entrepreneurship
you'd like to debunk
1 common myth um
good question
uh um common myth
that entrepreneurs are greedy
that are out for it out for themselves to make money
which is a byproduct of what they're doing
not the only reason
and I think there's a big myth around that
oh there's a long period of not making money
you're exactly the truth is it's a struggle every day
and you do have to embrace that struggle of course
but yeah love it
what's the fastest way to build a professional network
um human connection no doubt
I think um yeah
I just think
you know be authentic
be yourself
put the other person's needs in front of you
and you will build quickly our relationships
cause people will feel safe with you
and that's what we're looking for as humans
and then ask for referral
ha ha ha ha ha ha well
um interesting
referrals is actually part of my program and um
I got a slightly different view on referral and that is
I just share with you quickly
um and just as a tip is that we don't wanna ask
for a referral in the way that it makes
the person we're asking become your sales consultant
right so often what happens is we say
do you know anybody else
can you tell them how good I am
filling the blank
but that's asking them to become yourselves
that puts them into a negative emotional state
they're less likely to do it
but if you find the right moment to empathetically ask
do you know anybody else that's having
the same problem with that you are
that I've helped you with
that's a different question
they more likely say yes
I know Mary Bill Barry above
then the next thing you ask is
hypothetically
would it be useful
for me to have a conversation with them
and if they say yes to that
that's an opening for an introduction
but if you say
who do you know that I can help
you're now asking that person to become your sales rip
and there's only a small percentage of people
you may be one of them on you
that is a good connector
like there's people who are connectors right
so they're just like
oh introduce you to everybody right
but that's a small percentage of the world's population
who are connectors
most people don't feel
comfortable in becoming someone else's sales rip
but if you ask in the empathetic way
is it useful for me to talk to someone you know
who's having the same problem you
and you need to frame it up correctly
and use the right tonality
you will open lot more doors
and you'll get three times
four times more referrals than what you doing
using the method of just ask and see what happens
so powerful
like just this little tips are worthwhile
so I hope you say to the end to get them
thousands of dollars
yeah thousands of dollars right here
you're welcome okay
last but not least
in the positive sense
going off track is hmm um
going off track is where all the good stuff is
cause if you stay inside the safety zone
inside the comfort zone
inside the track
yeah you won't achieve the things that you want
cause most of the stuff that we want is outside our
comfort zone
so I'd say going off track
is what actually takes you to where it is you wanna go
so beautifully put turn
this is amazing
and to all of our listeners
I hope you got some more tips
saved yourself a little
bit of money on this professional course
and if you wanna learn more again
check out the resources
because I'm sure there's so much more
to glean from this
a lot richer course content you can get
but thank you so much for investing
your time and energy into
empowering yourself by listening to this episode today
and I also wanna share that we
are a podcast with purpose
and right now we're supporting them using nonprofit
ready to empower
which has been empowering women worldwide
for 10 years now
they are currently doing a donation drive for $50,000
100% of which goes to operation cost
so if you feel like hey
I wanna make a positive impact in the world and
empower others
share $1 $5
whatever feels right in your heart at the link below
I would so appreciate it by December 8th
and any final words for our guests and listeners
sorry before you wrap up
hi look I think if you're in business
just be brave
um courage is the pathway to everything and uh
when you're pushing up against the barrier of courage
push through
cause it's not as bad on the other side as you think
um and probably the last thing I'll say is
one of my favourite sayings to get people to understand
is that you can't get good at what you're not doing
um so get in the game
the only way you're gonna get better at
whether it's selling or talking in front of people
or doing a podcast or whatever it is is that uh
you can't get good at what you're not doing
we're trying to over engineer everything from outside
the process
get in the process
and what happens is
you get insight from inside that process
not external of it
so when you're doing things
um insight comes to you
because you're seeing from a different Vantage point
don't try and over engine everything from the outside
um get into the process
and you know
if it's a little bit vulnerable
but you need that courage to push through and um
certainly in my
my life's journey in the last 11
12 years which I've used
that has served me very
very well and got me to a place that I've never thought
I'd be able to get to so um
certainly my last words oh
and I'm so grateful you have come on this
and thank you
to you and all of our listeners for joining this
adventure with us
and as always
let's take over the world together
right off track
until next time take care
thanks Annie
appreciate the opportunity