Crafting Engaging Content: Insights from Joe Pulizzi

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If you've ever heard me say the phrase, yeah, your audience

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isn't gonna care about you until you give them a reason to care,

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That's me quoting Joe Pulizzi. He is the man

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behind Content Entrepreneur Expo and many,

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many books, and he's on the show today. How cool

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is that? Get your pencils ready. It's a good one. Hit

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it, ladies. The School of Podcasting with

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Dave Jackson. Podcasting

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since 2,005. I am your very

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own personal podcast coach, Dave Jackson, thanking you so much

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for tuning in. If you are new to the show, this is where I help

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you plan, launch, grow, and monetize your podcast. My

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website is school of podcasting.com. And if you go to school

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of podcasting.com/listener or just use the coupon

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code listener, Yeah. That's gonna save you on that monthly or yearly

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subscription, and you can join absolutely

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worry free. So if you're like, nah. I'm not short in 30

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days to figure it out, and I will give you your money back. And

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today, if you don't know the name Joe Pulizzi, you should.

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He writes really good great books. He makes really good

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podcasting, and I'm so excited to have him on the

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show. So let's not waste any more time. Here's my talk

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with Joe Pulizzi. I'll tell you what's really cool about this.

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Number 1, great author, Content Incorporated,

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Epic Content Marketing. 2, don't get the first one. And then you

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you actually just wrote a novel, The Will to Die. He started Content

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Marketing Institute and Content Marketing World and then sold it. And

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then now, in fact, May 5th through 7th in Cleveland, Ohio,

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right up the street from me, You've got Content Entrepreneur Expo. We'll

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be talking about that. But here's what I was like, you know what? Joe

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Pulizzi is a good guy. Because I was getting ready to, like, buy everything you

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have. And it says at the bottom of your website, it says, I've

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published other books such as Killing Marketing, Managing

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Content Marketing, and his first book, Get Content, Get

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Customers. And you basically tell people, yeah, don't buy those. For that, I

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say thank you. You just kept put some money in my wallet. And, Joe Pulizzi,

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thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much. And thanks for mentioning that

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because, honestly, for authors out there, I wish more authors would do that. And,

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obviously, this is not a fiction author thing. But for business books,

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a lot of authors write business books that are no longer relevant. I've

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got 3 of them. So so just just don't don't

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do that. It's great to finally chat with you, Dave. Thanks for having me on.

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I appreciate it. The other thing I forgot to mention, because I read it every

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time it comes out, The Tilt, and I quote it religiously all

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the time, which is a newsletter for content entrepreneurs.

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And tell us a little bit about that. Let's start there. Yeah. I mean, to

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be honest, after my wife and I owned Content Marketing Institute, we we

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sold in 16, and then I exited by 18.

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And I promised her I would never start another business.

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So That didn't work out so well because COVID came

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COVID, I know. COVID came around, and I was getting into like you said,

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I was getting into writing thriller novels, and I'm really proud of The Will to

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Die. And I was working on the second one. But things happened during COVID, and

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I got into this whole creator economy thing. And I started to get a bunch

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of incoming from friends and colleagues about, hey, do another version

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of Content Inc. And I'm struggling here. Can you help me? And I was doing

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a little consult and I I I basically they brought me back

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in, and I couldn't get away. And, and then I started

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well, I said, well, if I'm gonna redo the book, I might as well start

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a business. So we started The Tilt, and it was planned as an

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email newsletter for content creators who wanted to become content

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entrepreneurs. So not hobbyists, like serious content creators that this is

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your business thing, and we did really well with it. It's got

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32,000 subscribers right now and it's we got a great team behind it, and

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then we decided to do the event, c e x, which you said is coming

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out coming up in May in Cleveland, and I got back

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into it, Dave, and I don't know what to say Yeah. Besides I thought it

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was the house. They pulled me back in. Keep

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pulling me back in. That's right. That's the is it The Godfather 3?

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Is that 3 or I think it's 3. And you you are you are called

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the godfather of content marketing. And the one thing I wanna

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ask about I'm gonna throw you some softballs here. What is content marketing

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like, wait. I've never heard this phrase. So content marketing is

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you could sort of think of it as the opposite of advertising.

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So an advertising is you're you're basically calling

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on somebody else's channel. It's somebody else's magazine, somebody else's

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news show, somebody else's podcasting you're saying, I'm going to place

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an advertisement in that pay for the right to do that.

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Content marketing is different where you're creating the show, you're creating

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the magazine, you're creating the newsletter. It is yours, and

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you're selling your own stuff in that. So, basically, your

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whole goal is to build a valuable, relevant, compelling,

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ongoing show to build a loyal audience that knows, likes, and trusts you,

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and ultimately will buy anything. So that's the whole idea behind content marketing,

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which, you know, when I started getting into content marketing

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in 2,000 and 2,001 wasn't even a thing. But as

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social media took off and Google took off almost

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simultaneously in the mid 2000, there were all these companies that

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said, oh, man. Well, how do we get found? How do we

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build audiences? What do we put in all these pipes, in these social media

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pipes? And I'm sending on email newsletter and and it's all

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sales stuff and product stuff, and nobody's paying attention to it. And I wanna start

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a podcast, but I don't have any good things to talk about because we're talking

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about our our own stuff. It's the whole idea of, hey, let's let's

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not talk about your own stuff. Let's talk about your customers pain points and

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what keeps them up at night. Build that audience, and then from there, you can

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actually sell stuff. So that's a long winded answer to I've

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been in this industry way too long. That's basically what that is.

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You said one of the things that we always hear people say, you know, well,

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you have to know your your customers or listeners, whatever it is, you have

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to know their pain points. And there are some people, like, okay. Well, how

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do I do that if I don't have you know, if I'm just starting out

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a brand new business or or a brand new podcaster, How do I

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figure that out if I don't have an audience yet? Well, I mean, hopefully, you

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have an idea of who your audience is. But, like, in Content, Inc, we say,

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okay. You start with your sweet spot. Like, what is your expertise area?

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And then what is your information and needs of your audience? And the combination

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of that will get to hopefully some content mission statement, like an editorial

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mission statement where you're saying, oh, I'm gonna talk about this, and it's

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in this format, audio format in a podcast case case,

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and it's targeting to the audience and the audience should

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get x, y, or z out of it. So you're really talking about audience

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outcomes. I'm trying to help my audience member get a better job or live a

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better life. You're not actively selling your stuff on it.

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That's the difference. And that's why our content marketing got such a bad name

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because you see all these podcasts created and these newsletters created, which were

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just additional sales tools. And I'm like, you're doing it wrong. You

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don't sell yet. You build the audience, and then naturally

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part of that, your customers are gonna wanna buy from you because you're helping

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them live a better life and get a better job. That's the whole idea behind

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that. And that's why, I mean, honestly, between you and I, nobody else you know,

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we're we're this is not, like, going out anywhere. Right, Dave? Like, we can

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talk about the real stuff. Most companies are really bad at

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content marketing. Like, terrible because they just can't

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get their products out of their way and say,

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what how can I help my customer outside of my product and solution?

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How can I help my customer today? They're only gonna buy your product and

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service for a very small portion of that time. What do you do the other

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99% of the time? You better send them something

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really amazing in the form of a show. That show could be a

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newsletter. A show could be a podcast. It could be a YouTube channel. It could

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be TikTok. It could be an event. It could be whatever. But

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focus on that. And then you're setting up your own marketing. You're

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creating your own future customer list to sell to. If you think

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about building the audience first and then selling to that audience

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second. Oh, amen, brother. I would say, it's plan,

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launch, grow, then monetize. And a lot of people don't a lot of people don't

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plan. They just launch, and then they wanna monetize, and they kinda skip the grow

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part. And I'm like, yeah. You that just is not the way it works.

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And in the tilt, you had a story, and you said that the

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number one way entrepreneurs are making the most profitable thing, I guess we'll

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put it that way, was they were selling their own products and services as opposed

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to advertising. And I quote that all the time because everybody's like, I'm gonna start

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a podcast. I'm gonna get ads. I'm like, let me give you some stats here.

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I guess the balance then is, okay. So I wanna sell my own products

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and services, but how do I do that without kind of

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stepping over the line where you're talking about bad content marketing is when we're just

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talking about me? Alright. I'm gonna do that Dave thing where I

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interrupt. That was a decent question. Hey, Joe. We're supposed

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to sell our own products and services, but we can't just talk about ourselves.

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What's the balance? But instead, I didn't shut up,

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and I turned what was a decent question into a, okay

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question, and I made it a yes or no. Is it as

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simple as I'm just gonna do an ad spot and that one little ad

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spot's gonna be for me? That's a you could be that

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simple. And that's the way that I like it, actually. I could I mean, by

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the way, thank you for your comments about the tilt. So we're on issue

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number, I don't know, 1,000 or something that we've sent out.

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And we sell our own products and services. We have sponsors, but we sell our

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own products and services. We sell courses. We're launching a a book in print till

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publishing coming out pretty soon with the whole thing, and we treat it

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like an ad. We're like, here if you were a media company,

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how would you do it? Here's content, content, content, really solid

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editorial, and then here's an ad. I think people are okay with that.

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Or on a podcast, I don't have a problem with at the end, say, hey.

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Here's how you find me. Or have you heard or, like, in the beginning, you

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and I are having banter. Maybe you launched a new product or service, but it's

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very natural. And people are okay with that because you're delivering so much

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value. It's just like, oh, we're gonna do a YouTube

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show, and it's gonna be a a product demo,

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and we're gonna have a customer at the end talking about how great it is.

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Well, that's not content marketing. Mhmm. That's something else. That's just promotion,

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which is fine, by the way. You can do that. There's nothing wrong with advertising.

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I'm I use advertising all the time. Advertising still works. More money spent

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on advertising than anything else out there. Yeah. But think about this as

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a little bit different. So if you're saying, okay, how do I do this really

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well? Find your favorite media company. Like, I love Morning Brew.

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Mhmm. I I open Morning Brew newsletter every day, and I get a

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good feel for that. Well, when a morning brew says in there and they do

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it as well, like, right at the end. Here's we're selling these courses. We got

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this event coming up, whatever. I pay attention because they

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deliver me so much value. So just think about it that way. It's just like,

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I think as a human being, you sort of know what's what

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am I going over the line a little bit. But just to end this part

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of it, what I love about once you build that loyal audience,

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you can monetize that audience 10 different ways. Right? You have advertising

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sponsorship, launch my own event, I could do it through affiliate links, I could sell

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products, I could sell services, I could do donations if I wish

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to. Right. You could do a lot of different things, and that's what's amazing

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is because it gives you so much flexibility to make money once you build that

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loyal audience. The thing that always gets me about the tilt, you just did 1

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March 8th. I'm really looking into website stuff. I haven't really

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I've kind of ignored my website for a few years. Like, it was up and

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running. I got it, and I know it's never over. But and you just put

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on episode about a bunch about SEO and links and keyword research

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and blah blah. And I was like, this is exactly how does Joe know this

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is exactly what I need right now? Because Joanne's an amazing team.

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That's exactly how Joe knows. Speaking of that, you know

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okay. So now I've I've got my podcast out there. I'm promoting my products

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and services, and there's the the old joke, right, that 50% of my marketing

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works. I just can't figure out which one it is. Right? Is it this one

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or that one? Do you have a favorite tool to

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try to solve that problem? I look at

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as wherever you have your core base, so you're building your

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platform at, and then you have an email offering. Like, if if

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any creator out there is starting today, and it's so easy to start

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because the technology is is so inexpensive

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and all these social channels are, quote unquote, free. Mhmm. Like

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okay. So, like and you have a say in where you wanna get this started.

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I'd say it's like the Harry Potter marketing hat. Like, you might be really good

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at something, like, maybe you're better audio or better on video, but you have a

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say in it. Like, you could say, oh, yeah. I don't wanna do the video

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thing. I wanna do the audio thing, or I wanna do an email newsletter, whatever.

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So figure out where your show is gonna be. Figure out, okay, this is what

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it's gonna be about. This is the audience where there's where we can be one

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of the leading experts in the world and deliver something amazing to that

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audience. And then as part of that, that call to action

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is a regular email newsletter. And this is so simple, Dave.

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This is not rocket science. It's been done by media companies for the last 20

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years. That's the model. They basically build a website or

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they build a podcast show or a YouTube show,

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and then they say, can get more of us through the email newsletter

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and what that does is it has them control a little bit of that

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business model. Because if they story on, let's say, YouTube,

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YouTube could kick them off at any point. Right? Could kick your eye off and

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change the algorithm once I'm doing growth, then I'm not. They could

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say, okay. Well, you gotta pay tomorrow. You you never know. I I just talked

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to a friend today who had 80,000 subscribers on YouTube,

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and he lost his channel entirely and never got it back and had to restart.

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That's horrible. Just to think about all the work it takes to get to 80,000.

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So you wanna make sure you have that email newsletter. And when I say email

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newsletter, I don't mind just collecting emails. I mean, sending them something

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amazing at least every other week. And

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if you do that and you have your core base show and then your AV

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email newsletter, that's a pretty simple scenario for

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success if you do that for the next 9, 12 months, 15 months.

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I think you'll start seeing, oh, hey. I've got an audience here. They're

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signing up for the newsletter, and then you can start to monetize from there.

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There you go. And don't you have another newsletter? I think it's the orange.

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The orange letter? Yeah. Yeah. That's my personal my personal newsletter.

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So, yeah, that's where I get to talk about whatever I

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whatever I well, I had to talk about. I took a page out of

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your, you know, book or whatever. And because I started my news, and

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I'm like, I don't know what to to talk about because if I start marketing,

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then it's, you know, it's this 12 page newsletter. Nobody wants to read

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that. So I started just writing a paragraph about, here's what

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I'm working on. Here's the horrible thing that happened. Here's the great thing that

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happened. Oh, and by the way, here's everything I just did. And I've had people

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tell me, I like your newsletter because I can read it in about 2 minutes.

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And it was just simply, I heard you talk about the orange newsletter, and I

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was like, well, he's just giving, like, the here's Here's what I

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think. Yeah. A couple of weeks ago, I talked about how I don't

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think people value their time, and I was talking about how men the statistics on

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people that scroll through social media, and they don't value their time and what they

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could do with the time. So did that kind of thing. I'd last week, I

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talked about Bitcoin because I'm you know, I'm into

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little cryptocurrency here and there, and I just said, hey. You may not understand it.

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Here's a video I think you should look at. So that kind of stuff. And

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so, basically, I usually have one content creation tip. I have one, like,

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marketing tip, and then I have one life tip. I talk about goals a lot.

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But, actually, Dave, I'll tell you why I did that. Because my wife and

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I sold CMI, and we sold CMI in 2016.

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CMI had over 200,000 email subscribers at that

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point. It's a very valuable company. We sold the event, Content Marketing

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World. It was a great exit for us. But then,

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I had nothing. I had I mean, I had my social

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channels, which I have a 150,000 followers on Twitter that are

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mean nothing because I that doesn't go there. I could Right. Do it. I

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lost all my status on on Twitter because I didn't, I didn't tweet

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regularly, and and I guess Elon doesn't like me. So whatever. And then I

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said, okay, 2018, 2019. I'm like, what do I do?

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I wanna talk to my friends and family and colleagues, and I wanna create a

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thing that's just mine. So on joe polizzi.com,

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I created the newsletter. And now, thankfully, I think it has, like, 46,000

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subscribers or something like that. We're doing really well, but it took a long time

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to get there. And now I'm like, whatever happens, if I ever start a

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thing and sell it, if I ever decide to go anywhere else, if I ever

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got shot on any social media site on the planet, which I always think is

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going to happen, I have this list of amazing people that

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I'm connected to. And then it's your choice on how you wanna do it.

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And luckily, people see value in it. And they keep I

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love getting responses, and I love this. And and I get family and friends that

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are signed up to it, and they give me crap about it. I love it.

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Absolutely favorite thing. Well and and you've mentioned, you

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know, YouTube, TikTok. You know, there's Instagram, Facebook.

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You name it. They're all there. And I know so many people

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that get really stressed out because they're trying to do everything. And

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I I personally I have been on and off TikTok, and it's just it's always

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the thing. And if I have more time, I'll go over and do some some

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talk face, some book chat, whatever they you know, the next one up.

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And you've kind of got a different strategy on that. Talk a little bit about

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that. Well and this is through a lot of interviews with

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a lot of successful content creators and marketers on how they've done it and been

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successful, and I call it basically, we all have

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a set number or amount of what I call content energy.

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And no matter how much budget you have or how much time, everybody has sort

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of the same amount of content energy that they put towards things. So it's basically,

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if you're most content creators and you wanna do this as a full time

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business, you said, okay, I'm spending time on Twitter x. I'm on

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Instagram. I'm figuring out Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm doing

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my podcast. I'm doing a YouTube show. I just launched this research project.

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I've got an event. I'm going out and doing speaking. I mean, I'm

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already tired. Right? This is so so and when you when you lay all

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that out and you're like, I'm spreading my content energy to 8, 9, 10,

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11 different things, what happens? And the answer is

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nothing happens because you're mediocre at best on any of these

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platforms. And in order to break through all the content clutter out there, you have

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to be great at at least one of those things. Great to that

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audience, delivering something amazing to that audience, one of them. And

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you can't do it if you spread yourself so thin. So you have to make

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a decision. You say, okay. What are the things that I'm gonna say no to

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so I can say a big emphatic yes to 1 or 2 and be amazing?

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And what's funny is I used to do this content marketing consulting and I

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used to get hired to come into these $1,000,000,000 companies. And they

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said, Joe, come on in and then give us the big content

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idea. Like, what what's the show we can start? Like, what is it a

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podcast? Is it YouTube? What what are we gonna do? And every

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time, I would say, well, you're gonna have to cut some things. That's

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really like, I would say, you've got a couple things over here that really have

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potential, but you're spreading yourself so thin with all your resources and time and

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energy that you're never gonna get great and build an audience there. So chop

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these five things off, reallocate those resources over here, and then

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consistently deliver over time, and you're gonna see success. That's what I've

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done. That's what, you know, when I interview people for Content Inc, that's what they've

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done. And then once they build what we call a minimum viable audience or an

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audience large enough that you can monetize against, then you can

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diversify. And by the way, Dave, this is just media

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101. So if you look at any successful media company on the

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planet, Huffington Post, the way that they grew, New York Times,

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Morning Brew. They all started by doing 1 or 2 things really

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well podcasting on one audience. And then once they build that audience, then they

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diversify and they're become these big media companies. Yeah.

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A lot of the stuff in your books, to me, the things why it resonated

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is it was, like, simple, blunt, and

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and perfect in a way. Like, one of my favorite lines is, yeah, your audience

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doesn't care about you. And I was like, wait. What? What? But everybody

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loves me. Wait. Not and it was like until you give them a reason to

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care. And so every time I see a podcaster open up an

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interview, and they go, so, Joe, tell us a little

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bit about yourself. And I'm always like, oh, here we go. Because now Joe's gonna

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be like, oh, I was a paper boy, and, you know, my dog's name is

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Kippy. And I'm like and then they don't edit it out. And so

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you want people to engage with your content. You wanna engage them.

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Right? So it's, again, kind of a a marketing 101. But what do you

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consider engaging content? To be honest, I don't

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care about traditional engagement. Like, I have to have feedback. Mhmm. What I'm

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trying to do is to get a real good sense and feel

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for who my audience is. And then whether you call that a buyer

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persona or not Right. Or whether you have a picture of what

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your your perfect customer is or audiences. I don't

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care how you do it, but you have to figure out something where this is

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the person. These are the challenges that they have right now,

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and how can I deliver an insane amount of value to that person to help

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them? By the way, it usually doesn't mean your product. We talked about this. So

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how do you really figure that? And I'm writing things down, and I'm doing

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surveys, and I'm going and checking out Google, and I'm figuring with chat

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gpt, and I'm getting all these listening posts where I can figure

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out, oh, this this is what my customer is dealing with. This is what

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my audience is dealing with. And then I can put together an

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ongoing editorial calendar and deliver on that every

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time. So that when I get then when I go out to promote, I'm never

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promoting me. Like, I'm always podcasting, here's an answer to

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this problem. Here's something I'm really struggling with. Are you struggling with it?

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Here's some some things I tested that maybe will work for you. It's just

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that thing, like, how can I like, I get up in the marketing, I say,

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how can I deliver more value than I'm taking? That's it. This is,

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like, simple humanity, but a lot of people are like and I get it. Right?

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It's like, I got a quarterly budget to make. I gotta sell the things.

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I need a number of leads, whatever. I'm like, okay. I get it. But take

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a deep breath out. We'll do the lead somewhere else, and we'll just

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focus on creating something that's really gonna help your customer. And

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how can that be wrong? The worst case scenario is they kinda

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like you more. It might you might have trouble, like, figuring

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out how it's getting to sales, but we'll get there. Like, we'll

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figure that out. And a a really good example is is that we launched

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Chief Content Officer Magazine when I was a CMI in 2011.

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And we're launching a print magazine in 2011, even then, was a

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risky thing. And I'm trying to show, and we're trying to get together,

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is this thing working? Like, is it doing anything for the business? So what we

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found out and it took us 2 years to get this data, but we found

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out that those customers, those companies that were getting

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the magazine were sending more people to Content

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Marketing World than average, and they were spending more when they got

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to Content Marketing World. They were higher yield customers. And I'm like, isn't

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that the greatest thing ever to say about a print

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magazine? So it's those types of things that I love. But,

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again, you've gotta you know, we had to set I could I was the founder

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of the company, so I could say, we're gonna wait on this. But if you

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go into most companies, their dog's like, rush, I I need it right now.

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Well, if you need like, like, if you came to me and said, Joe, I

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love this content marketing stuff. I wanna do it right now. What can I expect

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in 6 months? I would say nothing. You should

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expect absolutely nothing to have. You got something?

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Great. Better than most. Are you having fun doing it? Yeah.

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I did a deal with a very large company in Chicago

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for a magazine. This is back in 2004 or something like that.

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And they said, well, we don't wanna do the 2

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year deal for the Mag Quarterly Magazines. We wanna do 1 year and

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2 issues. And I said, I can't help you.

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I said, I don't believe that will work. You're gonna send 2 issues in a

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year, and then you're gonna see if something works? I can tell you, you're not

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gonna see anything. You're not gonna get enough data then. You

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have to deliver amazing things to them 7, 8 times a

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year, 9 times a year in print form. Whatever it is, you have to deliver

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amazing value. 2 times isn't enough. They probably forgotten, thought you spammed

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them if they ever subscribed to it. Same thing with email newsletter. So it's

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those types of things that we're still dealing with today because of this

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mentality of I need to get the business today. And if we just

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say, hey, focus on the audience for a little bit, customer,

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those things will come if we do it the right way. Well, I know this

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is part of Joe's greatest hits, and, you know, we wanna hear the hits. So

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it's it's your favorite question. How long does it take to grow an

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audience? And then, of course, the follow-up to that is, especially if you wanna

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monetize. So we we know a couple things. So we've done

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some pretty good research at The Tilt with Anne Hanley and Jay Clouse,

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and we found out that it's generally your number to

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get to monetization that you're comfortable with. So, basically, the

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business is growing and it's throwing off some

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cash. That number was 18 months, and I still think that's

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low, Dave. Mhmm. Because most of the people I talk to,

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they're saying 2 plus years, in my case,

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4 years with Content Marketing Institute. I mean, I was

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doing a lot of odd jobs until we till I knew that I

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didn't have to work for somebody again. And I guess I would treat it like

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any small business. Most small

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businesses fail inside 5 years. It takes

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about 3 years for a small business to make it. Content

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creation, I've got my phone here. You and I are talking. Right now right

429
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now, this technology hasn't cost us all that much because we've been using it so

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long. You know, we're we're talking online, or Internet doesn't cost us that

431
00:26:14,255 --> 00:26:17,235
much, all those things. But, honestly,

432
00:26:18,450 --> 00:26:22,290
we've got to bake in more time. So my wife and I

433
00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:25,675
started in 2007. We had to make some really

434
00:26:25,675 --> 00:26:29,195
critical expense judgments. It's okay. Let's get rid of the

435
00:26:29,195 --> 00:26:32,875
car. We're not going on the vacation. She calls it the baloney and ramen

436
00:26:32,875 --> 00:26:36,620
noodle years. Like, really cut down expenses so that

437
00:26:36,620 --> 00:26:40,080
you can make it. Now, made and I talked to a creator today.

438
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:43,684
They did a $1,000,000 in revenue in 12 months. And I

439
00:26:43,985 --> 00:26:47,605
said, congratulations. You're a 1 percenter. Yeah. I rarely

440
00:26:47,665 --> 00:26:51,205
meet people like you. I don't know how you did it, but congratulations.

441
00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:55,130
Because I don't know that model. That is foreign to me. My

442
00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:58,750
model is more like mister beast model, not that I'm mister beast or anything.

443
00:26:59,295 --> 00:27:03,135
But mister beast started in 2012. Right? It took him 4

444
00:27:03,135 --> 00:27:06,575
years to get to 30,000 subscribers. It took him 2 years just to figure out

445
00:27:06,575 --> 00:27:09,780
what the heck he was gonna talk about on a regular basis. 5 years, he

446
00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:13,380
got to a 1000000 subscribers, still not making money, and now he's worth a

447
00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:17,160
1,000,000,000 plus dollars. That's after 12

448
00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:20,965
12 years. Yeah. Hit the long tamer, game approach.

449
00:27:20,965 --> 00:27:24,505
Get expenses down. Figure out some odd jobs so you can make it there.

450
00:27:25,044 --> 00:27:28,720
Have a good support from your spouse and your family, and and you can

451
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,460
then be part of one of the best

452
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,520
businesses ever, and that's the content creation business, and be a

453
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,125
podcaster, and do all the wonderful things, because you and I love this stuff.

454
00:27:39,185 --> 00:27:43,025
Yeah. But set yourself up for success because it does take some time. It

455
00:27:43,025 --> 00:27:46,005
sounds like you've tried a lot of things over the years. Do you have

456
00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:50,630
a favorite out of all the things you've tried that just failed

457
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:54,390
to such a a horrible word, but it just didn't work that you learned

458
00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:58,215
the most from? Man, that's well,

459
00:27:58,215 --> 00:28:01,815
wow. I don't this is a whole different podcast if we're gonna talk about Joe

460
00:28:01,815 --> 00:28:04,635
Pulizzi and the number of times I failed.

461
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:09,690
Well, I'll I'll be honest with you. The tilt.com and the

462
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:13,530
newsletter, it's doing great. I'm I'm very proud of what

463
00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:17,305
the team and and I've created 32,000 subscribers,

464
00:28:17,365 --> 00:28:20,825
good open rate. We get a lot of positive feedback like yourself. It's wonderful.

465
00:28:21,525 --> 00:28:25,230
But it took us a long way longer

466
00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:29,210
to monetize and way longer to be any kind of

467
00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:33,035
profitability than I thought because I'm like, oh, hey,

468
00:28:33,035 --> 00:28:36,555
Joe Pulizzi. I got a big audience here. I'm coming off a big

469
00:28:36,555 --> 00:28:40,075
success. I know this model. I've I teach this model. I do this whole

470
00:28:40,075 --> 00:28:43,820
thing. And I'm 2 years into this saying, why am why are we

471
00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:47,500
not making money hand over this with this thing? I have some

472
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,044
answers to that about why if you wanna know, but I even,

473
00:28:51,044 --> 00:28:54,585
like I probably would have done it completely

474
00:28:54,644 --> 00:28:57,705
differently if I had to do it over again. Now, I'm happy with this community.

475
00:28:57,764 --> 00:29:01,289
I love this community, my favorite of all time. I would never but if I

476
00:29:01,289 --> 00:29:04,090
had a do over, I don't know if I would have done it the same

477
00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:07,295
way. I think I would have not started it or I would be right now

478
00:29:07,295 --> 00:29:10,355
my 3rd novel or something like this. This is incredibly hard

479
00:29:10,815 --> 00:29:13,775
business. But if you do wanna know why what I would do differently Yeah. I'm

480
00:29:13,775 --> 00:29:17,040
gonna say I'm gonna you you got me all peaked now. So yeah. What wasn't

481
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,420
working? And you'll hear his answer right after this.

482
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,515
So I know and a lot of the players in

483
00:29:25,515 --> 00:29:29,195
content marketing and have first, I mean, I've been in for since

484
00:29:29,195 --> 00:29:32,620
2000. So I I know the players. I get content

485
00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:36,000
marketing. I get the philosophy and the methods and all those things.

486
00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:40,145
Getting on to the creator economy side and working with

487
00:29:40,145 --> 00:29:43,985
individual creators is a different thing. And I was taking

488
00:29:43,985 --> 00:29:47,590
what I learned and moved it over, But I did not realize

489
00:29:48,610 --> 00:29:52,450
the vast amount of resources available for content creators coming

490
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:55,865
from so many different companies all over the world

491
00:29:56,085 --> 00:29:59,845
that we were competing with. So I'm thinking oh, it's funny

492
00:29:59,845 --> 00:30:03,044
because it's called the tilt. I'm thinking, oh, we've got a really good content tilt,

493
00:30:03,044 --> 00:30:06,860
which means we've got a really good differentiation area that we can break through

494
00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:10,240
all this clutter and build an audience and we can monetize this really quickly.

495
00:30:11,645 --> 00:30:15,424
But we really did not. What I found out

496
00:30:15,485 --> 00:30:18,945
after the fact is that there were 100, if not 1,000

497
00:30:19,085 --> 00:30:20,810
of really amazing resources

498
00:30:24,170 --> 00:30:27,690
can you build an audience and say, hey, we're one of the leading

499
00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:31,225
experts in the world. Can you build an audience and say, hey,

500
00:30:31,225 --> 00:30:34,985
we're one of the leading experts in the world. I thought starting out that

501
00:30:34,985 --> 00:30:38,174
we could say that at the till, which the way we positioned it, really focusing

502
00:30:38,174 --> 00:30:41,783
on content entrepreneurship, but a lot of people taught. Now I think we have a

503
00:30:41,783 --> 00:30:45,362
very unique way to do it, and I'm glad you like it, and we growth

504
00:30:45,393 --> 00:30:49,235
a great community. But when starting out, we didn't have enough

505
00:30:49,235 --> 00:30:52,995
differentiation. We were going to too wide of an audience. I would have focused on

506
00:30:52,995 --> 00:30:55,975
a different content niche. I would have focused on a more

507
00:30:57,780 --> 00:31:01,460
way smaller audience than going after just content

508
00:31:01,460 --> 00:31:05,160
creators. I might have picked the area of financial or

509
00:31:05,725 --> 00:31:09,245
home services or civil engineering or whatever, something

510
00:31:09,245 --> 00:31:13,020
different where we would have had an advantage and a moat instead

511
00:31:13,020 --> 00:31:16,380
of just going out and saying, oh, we're competing with not only other

512
00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:20,140
creators, we're competing with our sponsors that we're going after, and we're

513
00:31:20,140 --> 00:31:23,965
creating with other companies and media companies. So right off the bat, we're

514
00:31:23,965 --> 00:31:27,665
creating we're competing with 5000, 10000

515
00:31:27,725 --> 00:31:31,245
different things. It's like there's too many. Like, look at like, I

516
00:31:31,245 --> 00:31:35,070
love Content Entrepreneur Expo. We'll get have 4

517
00:31:35,070 --> 00:31:38,669
100, 450 amazing people at that. But, you know

518
00:31:38,669 --> 00:31:42,304
what? There's a lot of other bits out there that do a lot of

519
00:31:42,304 --> 00:31:45,904
similar things. I think ours is the best, but I could see if somebody else

520
00:31:45,904 --> 00:31:49,745
looked and said, Joe, there's 72 other events out there just like

521
00:31:49,745 --> 00:31:53,360
this. And I can't persuade them differently

522
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,040
because there are 72 other events going to that audience. So,

523
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,715
again, I would say it's my recommendation if you're just listening to me whine about

524
00:32:00,715 --> 00:32:04,315
this stuff. I would say, really look at your

525
00:32:04,315 --> 00:32:07,820
content tilt. Like, really look. Do you have the a niche there as you could

526
00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:11,179
say? You could be the leading expert in the world if you do this. Do

527
00:32:11,179 --> 00:32:15,015
you have an audience that's small enough where you can understand their

528
00:32:15,015 --> 00:32:18,775
pain points and needs better than anyone else? We did that really,

529
00:32:18,775 --> 00:32:22,430
really well at Content Marketing Institute. Didn't do that as

530
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:26,270
well at the till, and we we had to backtrack and really change things

531
00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:29,975
so we could we could do that better. Well, you mentioned, you

532
00:32:29,975 --> 00:32:33,655
know, your your event coming up here in May, and I'll have links to all

533
00:32:33,655 --> 00:32:36,855
this stuff and his books and everything else. It'll be a very long show notes

534
00:32:36,855 --> 00:32:40,050
page. But tell us a little bit about the event that's coming up in May

535
00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:43,730
in Cleveland, Ohio. Yes. In Cleveland, Ohio. I'm really

536
00:32:43,810 --> 00:32:46,985
I get to host the event. I do the opening keynote and host it May

537
00:32:46,985 --> 00:32:50,445
5th through 7th in Cleveland, CEX. It's at, the Renaissance

538
00:32:50,597 --> 00:32:54,410
Downloads, which is my favorite hotel in Cleveland, and it's completely renovated.

539
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:58,470
And we're the 1st event in the space. So I'm really excited about it. But

540
00:32:58,470 --> 00:33:02,095
basically, 3 days of workshops for content creators who

541
00:33:02,095 --> 00:33:05,855
wanna be content entrepreneurs or full time content entrepreneurs who are like, how do I

542
00:33:05,855 --> 00:33:09,280
build audience? How do I grow revenue? How do I figure out

543
00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:12,720
AI? I think we've got 8 AI sessions

544
00:33:12,940 --> 00:33:16,755
alone, plus a workshop on AI. We've got a workshop on book

545
00:33:16,755 --> 00:33:20,355
publishing. We've got a the Andrew Davis coming in and doing a great workshop on

546
00:33:20,355 --> 00:33:24,100
how to be a professional speaker and get more speaking revenue. So it's basically all

547
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:26,580
the things that you and I just talked about. How do you build a loyal

548
00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:30,179
audience? How do you monetize that audience audience in 4, 5,

549
00:33:30,179 --> 00:33:33,945
6, 7 different ways? How do you future proof your business model

550
00:33:33,945 --> 00:33:37,644
so AI doesn't eat you for lunch? Like, all those things. And

551
00:33:37,784 --> 00:33:41,610
I'm really excited that we've got a good dissect dissection of people

552
00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:45,290
coming. We got about 20% that are doing 500,000 or more, and we

553
00:33:45,290 --> 00:33:48,965
got 20%. We're just getting started. So we've got we

554
00:33:48,965 --> 00:33:52,485
got sessions for all those people, and you've got the Jay Clauses of the world

555
00:33:52,485 --> 00:33:56,080
there and Justin Welch. And and we've got BJ Novak

556
00:33:56,159 --> 00:33:59,919
from The Office, who's our closing keynote, and a lot of wonderful people that

557
00:33:59,919 --> 00:34:03,679
are that are coming and gonna put on hopefully an amazing show and

558
00:34:03,679 --> 00:34:07,455
just have fun with it and network and my favorite community. This is the

559
00:34:07,455 --> 00:34:11,295
best group of people I have ever met because they all wanna help each

560
00:34:11,295 --> 00:34:15,089
other because we're all trying to build this wonderful small business and

561
00:34:15,089 --> 00:34:18,929
not have to work for somebody else. It's kind of the goal. The

562
00:34:18,929 --> 00:34:21,975
other thing I just wanted to bring up is I love the fact that you

563
00:34:21,975 --> 00:34:25,815
have a novel, and and the novel is not about how to get

564
00:34:25,815 --> 00:34:29,355
customers. You know what I mean? It's it's it's not a business book.

565
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:33,260
So a lot of what we talked about today, I think a lot of people

566
00:34:33,260 --> 00:34:37,099
are gonna disconnect that, oh, that's a business thing. So how does this

567
00:34:37,099 --> 00:34:39,844
apply to someone that's doing

568
00:34:40,864 --> 00:34:43,905
I don't know. I I don't know why I'm stuck on movie podcasting the last

569
00:34:43,905 --> 00:34:47,719
2 weeks, I've been Like a consumer side? Yeah. The consumer side, I'm just, a

570
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,440
it's an entertainment show. It's it's fit in 50 over 50

571
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,844
or, you know, or it's the psycho cinema show,

572
00:34:55,085 --> 00:34:58,605
where we talk about really bad movies. You know, the the typical podcast

573
00:34:58,605 --> 00:35:02,125
stuff. Because the the advantage of looking

574
00:35:02,205 --> 00:35:05,609
working at Lipson is I get to hear lot of podcasting. The disadvantage of

575
00:35:05,609 --> 00:35:08,250
that is I'm hearing a lot of Hear a lot of podcasts? I'm hearing a

576
00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:11,630
lot of people's first podcasting, which isn't fair to anyone.

577
00:35:12,015 --> 00:35:15,475
But to the person that's kind of doing marketing that way,

578
00:35:15,775 --> 00:35:19,490
do you have any insights on that? Yes. I do. And what

579
00:35:19,490 --> 00:35:23,010
I would say is, I want you to think

580
00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:26,470
beyond just the podcast. I want you to think about

581
00:35:26,905 --> 00:35:30,665
what what's in it for you? Like, what is your I I call

582
00:35:30,665 --> 00:35:33,865
it call it an exit strategy or begin with the end in mind. What do

583
00:35:33,865 --> 00:35:36,750
you want out of this whole thing? If you want this to just be a

584
00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:40,109
wonderful hobby where you get on a podcast and like to kick off a little

585
00:35:40,109 --> 00:35:43,650
bit of cash, good for you. You go do that. You be that person.

586
00:35:44,105 --> 00:35:47,565
But if you want this to be, like, your full time thing where you're

587
00:35:48,025 --> 00:35:51,865
generating a 100, 200, a $1,000,000 a year and you've

588
00:35:51,865 --> 00:35:55,490
built a full fledged media business around it, well, that

589
00:35:55,630 --> 00:35:59,470
excites me. Like, I like that because that's the greatest

590
00:35:59,470 --> 00:36:03,234
business on the planet, but you have to make some different decisions. So you're not

591
00:36:03,234 --> 00:36:07,075
just thinking about, okay, you've got the show, but

592
00:36:07,075 --> 00:36:10,835
what what is what is the end of that what's the end all

593
00:36:10,835 --> 00:36:14,660
be all of that show? You're gonna build this loyal audience. You're gonna hopefully have

594
00:36:14,660 --> 00:36:18,100
some kind of e newsletter where you can have 1 on 1

595
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:21,684
conversations with those people and deliver directly to those people from an opt

596
00:36:21,684 --> 00:36:25,285
in standpoint. You're gonna look at, okay, well, I've got 10 different

597
00:36:25,285 --> 00:36:29,045
ways to generate revenues. Okay. Well, in a podcast, how many do you have? You

598
00:36:29,045 --> 00:36:32,810
could sell products and services. You could sell advertising and sponsorship. You could do a

599
00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:36,170
lot of other things too. Maybe maybe your industry for

600
00:36:36,170 --> 00:36:39,975
your 50 plus car show or your

601
00:36:39,975 --> 00:36:43,655
crazy dessert show or I'm an I'm an amazing I'm

602
00:36:43,655 --> 00:36:47,015
a runner over. I have a friend of mine who's just started a podcast, Runners

603
00:36:47,015 --> 00:36:50,390
Over 60. And I'm trying to talk. I'm like, okay.

604
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:54,069
Great. It's not just a podcast. This is a

605
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:57,675
mission where you're really trying to help people. This is a media

606
00:36:57,675 --> 00:37:00,955
property that you're going to build. The first thing is the podcast, but then we

607
00:37:00,955 --> 00:37:04,155
wanna look at what this model is going to be. You build that loyal audience.

608
00:37:04,155 --> 00:37:07,350
You have the email component. You look at the 10 different ways that you can

609
00:37:07,350 --> 00:37:10,650
generate revenue. How do you support yourself

610
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:14,375
until you get to a minimum viable audience? I want you to ask those questions

611
00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:17,974
now because what are you do like, go back to the beginning. What are you

612
00:37:17,974 --> 00:37:21,700
doing this for? Write this down. Review it every day. I mean, you

613
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,980
might you might know this because you know a bit about my background, but when

614
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:28,660
I started in 2007 and I

615
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:32,395
left corporate America, I didn't know

616
00:37:32,395 --> 00:37:35,835
exactly what that long term goal was gonna be. Well, I read a couple books.

617
00:37:35,835 --> 00:37:39,675
I read Stephen Covey. I read Napoleon Hill, a couple other ones,

618
00:37:39,675 --> 00:37:43,119
and I ended up writing down my goal. And my goal was

619
00:37:43,420 --> 00:37:46,799
I sold, I do it in the past tense, I sold Content Marketing

620
00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:50,505
Institute for over $15,000,000 by

621
00:37:50,505 --> 00:37:54,265
2,015. Very audacious of me. I wrote that

622
00:37:54,265 --> 00:37:57,880
down in 2,008, didn't have 2 nickels to rub together. I read I

623
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,940
read that thing to myself twice a day

624
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,415
for 7 years trying to because it shaped

625
00:38:05,655 --> 00:38:09,095
everything I did because that's what my goal was because I wanted

626
00:38:09,095 --> 00:38:12,535
generational wealth for my kids and my family, and I wanted to build this media

627
00:38:12,535 --> 00:38:15,550
company. And I said, that's what I'm going for. So I don't have to work

628
00:38:15,550 --> 00:38:18,270
ever again if I don't want to. I wanna do it on my time. But

629
00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:22,030
I had to read that ongoing, and I found, Dave, that most

630
00:38:22,030 --> 00:38:25,725
creators and entrepreneurs don't have that. They've never spent the time and

631
00:38:25,725 --> 00:38:29,405
said, well, yeah, I know I like this thing, and I like my podcast,

632
00:38:29,405 --> 00:38:32,940
and I like being a content creator, but give me the big picture. It doesn't

633
00:38:32,940 --> 00:38:36,300
have to be an exit. Like, you don't have to sell your like, what's the

634
00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:39,984
perfect ideal of your life? Do you wanna do a nonprofit?

635
00:38:40,445 --> 00:38:43,165
Do you wanna spend more time with your kids? Do you wanna take care of

636
00:38:43,165 --> 00:38:46,945
your parents? Like, what is it? So write that down,

637
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,960
and then strategically start to make sense start to make plans

638
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,100
with your podcast to get you to that point.

639
00:38:54,805 --> 00:38:58,085
And that's what I'm trying, like, if the most important thing I work with content

640
00:38:58,085 --> 00:39:01,605
creators on has nothing to do with content creation. It has to do with

641
00:39:01,605 --> 00:39:05,270
business planning for entrepreneurs because that's what you are if you're a

642
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:09,030
podcast owner. You are an entrepreneur, and you're doing the greatest thing ever.

643
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:12,250
And if we treat it like that, I think you'll be more successful.

644
00:39:13,285 --> 00:39:16,905
Beautiful. If you want more, Joe, and I know I do,

645
00:39:17,125 --> 00:39:20,485
Content Inc podcasting then this old marketing podcast, and, of

646
00:39:20,485 --> 00:39:24,200
course, come to Cleveland. How many network parties are

647
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,960
going on at night? So we have we have 2 ourselves. So we

648
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,625
have the opening reception. That is Sunday night, the 5th,

649
00:39:31,625 --> 00:39:35,385
in Cleveland, and that'll be wonderful. And I'm doing a live taping with

650
00:39:35,385 --> 00:39:38,825
Robert Rose of This Old Marketing, so we're gonna have a little fun there. And

651
00:39:38,825 --> 00:39:42,390
then Monday night, we're having an eighties party

652
00:39:43,009 --> 00:39:46,210
after the, you know, the day's events, if you will. And that's gonna be for

653
00:39:46,289 --> 00:39:49,985
at my favorite restaurant in Cleveland, Pickwick and Frolic. So we're having

654
00:39:49,985 --> 00:39:52,785
that there, and we're gonna use the marketing room, and there's gonna be a lot.

655
00:39:52,785 --> 00:39:55,825
So what I try to do I've been as you know, I've been in the

656
00:39:55,825 --> 00:39:59,420
events industry for a long, long time. And

657
00:39:59,420 --> 00:40:03,180
education is really important, and you'll get the best education from

658
00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:06,780
the best content creators on the planet. But the most most people go

659
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:10,555
to events like that for networking. They're trying to find a couple people that

660
00:40:10,555 --> 00:40:13,994
can help them build their business, and that's what we try to set up on

661
00:40:13,994 --> 00:40:17,630
a number of situations. Even for you introverts out there

662
00:40:17,770 --> 00:40:21,050
where you can feel good about talking with some other people podcasting next to the

663
00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:24,785
right people and ask some questions in a in a format that's not gonna make

664
00:40:24,785 --> 00:40:28,465
you feel weird so that they can help you along your journey to build

665
00:40:28,465 --> 00:40:32,200
your business together. Excellent. I wanna say

666
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,000
it's c e x, but it's not. What is the website for your, oh, c

667
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:39,640
yes. C e x dot events. Dot events. So so go to yeah. Go to

668
00:40:40,265 --> 00:40:44,025
yeah, so I'll do the quick promotion, cex.events. And if you decide to

669
00:40:44,025 --> 00:40:47,625
come, I would like to meet you there and talk to you. Use coupon code

670
00:40:47,625 --> 00:40:51,320
JP 100 JP 100. That'll get you a

671
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,000
$100 off if you pick the conference pass or the all access where you get

672
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,835
the workshop and the videos and everything. But I'd love to I mean, it's my

673
00:40:58,835 --> 00:41:02,515
favorite thing is just talking to other creators, and we're all

674
00:41:02,515 --> 00:41:06,115
on the same journey together. And it's podcasting. Kinda like you. You know, you've been

675
00:41:06,115 --> 00:41:09,940
working on podcasting for, what, since 2,005 or something like

676
00:41:09,940 --> 00:41:13,620
that. Like, you, like, you probably you're only doing

677
00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:17,220
that because you enjoy talking to other podcasters about the

678
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:20,964
business of podcasting. Yeah. Because you if you didn't enjoy that part,

679
00:41:20,964 --> 00:41:24,645
you wouldn't be doing this. And I believe the same thing about content creators. I'm

680
00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:28,369
like, I think this is the greatest job on the planet, working for yourself,

681
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:32,109
building an audience, helping people, not feeling bad about selling to

682
00:41:32,109 --> 00:41:35,925
them. I mean, that's the greatest thing ever. So I like that. I'm I'm just

683
00:41:35,925 --> 00:41:38,885
like you in that respect. Well, I just love the fact that, you know, we're

684
00:41:38,885 --> 00:41:42,005
all in our spare bedroom talking into a microphones, and there are times when we

685
00:41:42,005 --> 00:41:45,420
feel like our own little freaky people, like, nobody your

686
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,655
parents story at Thanksgiving going, it's a what? You know? You know?

687
00:41:49,735 --> 00:41:52,455
And so when you get around other people that are doing the same thing, you

688
00:41:52,455 --> 00:41:56,135
don't feel like it's like, okay. Everybody else is going through the same struggle. It's

689
00:41:56,135 --> 00:41:59,590
not just me. And that can be So true. Really

690
00:41:59,590 --> 00:42:03,270
engaging. By the time you get home, you're like, okay. Plus, you've you've had all

691
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:07,015
these great sessions and you've hopefully taken notes. Please take

692
00:42:07,015 --> 00:42:10,855
notes. And then the the key is when you get home, do

693
00:42:10,855 --> 00:42:14,580
them. Do something a little bit every day. Yeah. Do one thing or

694
00:42:14,580 --> 00:42:18,020
something like that. But you what what you said resonates. So I just you just

695
00:42:18,020 --> 00:42:21,605
talked about this in my newsletter. I'm a big Billy Joel fan. Love Billy Joel,

696
00:42:21,605 --> 00:42:24,325
and I love the fact that he released a new song. Yep. Why did he

697
00:42:24,325 --> 00:42:27,980
release a new song? He started talking to another songwriter. And

698
00:42:27,980 --> 00:42:31,660
that collaboration with Freddie Wexler, another songwriter, helped

699
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:35,474
him figure out that he wasn't done writing. And that just gives

700
00:42:35,474 --> 00:42:39,315
me goosebumps. I'm like, that's why we do that's why

701
00:42:39,315 --> 00:42:42,935
you can't just always do this in your bedroom or at Starbucks

702
00:42:43,075 --> 00:42:46,840
or whatever. You need to talk to other people that are dealing with the same

703
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,680
crap that you are every day. So that's why, you know, however you

704
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,555
do it. If you do it at CEX, great. But but get together with a

705
00:42:53,555 --> 00:42:57,155
group of people that are dealing with the same things you are, and that'll make

706
00:42:57,155 --> 00:43:00,150
you a better person, and then it'll make you a better content creator. And I'll

707
00:43:00,150 --> 00:43:03,830
have links to all of Joe's books. I'll have links to cex.events. I'll

708
00:43:03,830 --> 00:43:07,670
have a link to joeppleezy.com. It's all there in the show notes. Joe, thank

709
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:11,335
you so much for your time, man. I really appreciate it. Dave, anytime, my friend.

710
00:43:11,335 --> 00:43:12,715
It was a lovely conversation.

711
00:43:17,255 --> 00:43:20,640
Oh, you know what's cool about Joe? What you hear on this

712
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,160
podcast is what you get. A guy that loves to serve

713
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,680
his community. One of the couple things that jumped out at me, I love the

714
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,265
fact that he said, the Orange newsletter, it's his.

715
00:43:31,965 --> 00:43:35,325
Like, he doesn't have to worry about, I don't know, Clubhouse going

716
00:43:35,325 --> 00:43:38,869
away or back in the day, Myspace going, like no. That's

717
00:43:38,869 --> 00:43:42,170
his. And if the world blows up, he's got his newsletter.

718
00:43:42,869 --> 00:43:46,615
And he talked about how going to a community can

719
00:43:46,615 --> 00:43:50,395
help you feel less like a freak. He didn't say that I did, but

720
00:43:50,855 --> 00:43:54,475
he did stress the importance of community. And I'm here to tell you,

721
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:58,680
people come for the courses, they come for the coaching at the School of Podcasting,

722
00:43:58,740 --> 00:44:02,505
but they stay for the community. And then the

723
00:44:02,505 --> 00:44:06,125
hard question that we have to ask ourselves is,

724
00:44:06,664 --> 00:44:10,150
can we be a leader in this space? And my

725
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:13,750
answer to you is, of course, you can. Don't listen to the voice in your

726
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:17,049
head. Now it's not gonna come easy. It's gonna take some work,

727
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:20,974
but why not you? You know, so many times we

728
00:44:20,974 --> 00:44:24,675
we say, wow, nobody's gonna well, why not? Why not you?

729
00:44:24,974 --> 00:44:28,310
And then my favorite thing he brought up is

730
00:44:28,530 --> 00:44:32,370
people will put up with ads. And, again, if you are new to

731
00:44:32,370 --> 00:44:36,165
the show, I'm not anti ad. It's just not my first string

732
00:44:36,225 --> 00:44:40,065
kind of strategy when it comes to monetization. But I'm gonna replay this

733
00:44:40,065 --> 00:44:43,460
quote. It was so good. Marketing, Bruce says in there, and they do it as

734
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:46,980
well, like, right at the end. Here's we're selling these courses. We got this event

735
00:44:46,980 --> 00:44:50,820
coming up, whatever. I pay attention because they deliver me so much

736
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:54,665
value. Not just value, so much value. And I'll

737
00:44:54,665 --> 00:44:56,925
have a link to everything out at school of podcasting.com/925.

738
00:45:01,069 --> 00:45:04,750
Joe mentioned a couple different ways you can make money with your podcast. If that

739
00:45:04,750 --> 00:45:08,430
is something you are interested in, go to profit from your

740
00:45:08,441 --> 00:45:12,075
podcasting /book, and you will see that

741
00:45:12,075 --> 00:45:15,915
the audiobook is now available. I'm actually recording

742
00:45:15,915 --> 00:45:19,690
it now. You've got about an hour and a half worth of material there now.

743
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:23,430
I'm recording chapters on a regular basis. And the cool thing is the

744
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:26,855
early adopters can then feed me questions for the

745
00:45:26,855 --> 00:45:30,475
bonus content. Yeah. Check it out. Profit from your podcast.com/book.

746
00:45:32,935 --> 00:45:36,670
And since we're talking about books, my buddy, Thomas Umstatt

747
00:45:36,730 --> 00:45:40,430
Junior, is doing this the last time. His book, Launch

748
00:45:40,650 --> 00:45:44,075
Secrets, is going away. They've been doing this particular

749
00:45:44,775 --> 00:45:48,234
class, this course, for 7 years.

750
00:45:48,535 --> 00:45:52,300
So it's Thomas Umstead Junior and James l. Rupert. And if you

751
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:56,060
are a person that is writing a book or you've already written a book and

752
00:45:56,060 --> 00:45:58,800
you didn't get much out of it, go to school of podcasting.com

753
00:46:00,445 --> 00:46:04,205
/booklaunchsecrets, and that'll take you over

754
00:46:04,205 --> 00:46:07,885
to a presentation Thomas did. And there will be a link there if you

755
00:46:07,885 --> 00:46:11,290
wanna sign up. The last day to sign up is April 12,

756
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:16,470
2024. I wanna thank Joe again for coming on the show.

757
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:20,295
What a great guy. Looking forward to seeing him. Can I say something that

758
00:46:20,295 --> 00:46:24,135
sounds weird? I just recorded this episode. I edited it and

759
00:46:24,135 --> 00:46:27,494
put it together right after last week's because I'm going to Podcasting

760
00:46:27,494 --> 00:46:31,300
Movement in you know, basically, I'm leaving on a plane

761
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:35,060
in about 12 hours, and it seems kinda weird because I feel

762
00:46:35,060 --> 00:46:38,555
like I just talked to you because I I just did. It just it's a

763
00:46:38,555 --> 00:46:42,234
week till this comes out, but I do appreciate everyone taking the

764
00:46:42,234 --> 00:46:45,710
time to listen to the show. If you know

765
00:46:45,710 --> 00:46:49,470
somebody who's struggling with content, like, what do you

766
00:46:49,470 --> 00:46:52,750
mean? What is good content? And how do I get this to work? And how

767
00:46:52,750 --> 00:46:56,285
do I engage my audience? Go, hey, you need to listen to this Joe

768
00:46:56,285 --> 00:46:59,965
Pulizzi guy. He was on the School of Podcasting. You can check it out. You

769
00:46:59,965 --> 00:47:02,619
can just share it there with your phone. You can tell them to go to

770
00:47:02,619 --> 00:47:06,400
schoolofpodcasting.com/924, or even better,

771
00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:10,465
have them go to schoolofpodcasting.com/follow, and it'll

772
00:47:10,465 --> 00:47:14,305
be the episode right there they can listen to depending on, of

773
00:47:14,305 --> 00:47:17,905
course, when you listen to that. But it's in there. All the episodes are in

774
00:47:17,905 --> 00:47:20,500
there when you follow the show. School of podcasting.com/follow.

775
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,040
Thank you so much. Until next week. Take care. God

776
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,900
bless. Class is dismissed.

777
00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:45,630
Yeah. Here's a little another little it's not really a blooper, but

778
00:47:45,630 --> 00:47:49,135
I pulled this out because, well, I sounded like an

779
00:47:49,135 --> 00:47:52,655
idiot. I I didn't understand why he called the

780
00:47:52,655 --> 00:47:56,275
newsletter the tilt. And, well, this is what I thought it was.

781
00:47:56,799 --> 00:48:00,559
I I totally appreciate that. And when I first saw the tilt see, I'm old

782
00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:04,319
enough to remember pinball. And I was like, the tilt, because that was a

783
00:48:04,319 --> 00:48:06,865
thing if you hit the the machine. That's right. You know, it's, like, is this

784
00:48:06,865 --> 00:48:10,385
a pinball? What's what what's y'all doing? Exactly. You're, like, what?

785
00:48:10,385 --> 00:48:13,950
Well, yeah. If you read got that ink, it's the second

786
00:48:13,950 --> 00:48:17,550
step is the content. Tilt. And I thought it was the greatest URL ever. I'm

787
00:48:17,550 --> 00:48:20,930
like, oh my god. I got the tilt.com. This is amazing.

788
00:48:21,705 --> 00:48:25,545
And Joe wasn't doing that in a mean way. I've read epic content,

789
00:48:25,545 --> 00:48:28,505
and now I'm in the middle of epic content too. And I will read Content

790
00:48:28,505 --> 00:48:31,990
Inc when I'm done with those. But I thought it just made me look like

791
00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:33,450
Dave didn't do his homework.