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Dr. Ray Self interviews a former pastor's wife about the pain of divorce and the many difficulties divorce creates being a church leader. In this transparent and honest interview, you will hear a truthful conversation about the horrible pain of...
Dr. Ray Self interviews a former pastor's wife about the pain of divorce and the many difficulties divorce creates being a church leader. In this transparent and honest interview, you will hear a truthful conversation about the horrible pain of divorce, and how our God of hope gives a new vision and a way to begin again when life requires a do-over.
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Narrator: Welcome to Self Talk with Dr. Ray Self, the place where you can get real answers to tough questions Jesus promised you abundant life but poor choices and dark forces stand in your way. It is time to learn how to overcome the obstacles that keep you out of your promised land. Knowledge of God will pave the path for you to walk in his blessing.
[Music]
Dr. Ray: Hello and welcome to Self Talk. I'm your host, Dr Ray Self. Very glad you're listening to the show today, we appreciate it very much. Be sure download, subscribe and rate me; that really helps. Appreciate it very much and this show is sponsored by the International College of Ministry, a Holy Spirit-filled online accredited seminary, enrolling now at icmcollege.org; please check it out. There's also some free lessons you can take on there, some free downloads, I think you'd like it. Today I'm very blessed to have a very special guest, Debbie wWnderweedle. Debbie is a minister, she's also an ICM graduate in counseling I believe, you're a counseling graduate, and just a very wonderful devout Christian. But I want to get into something, a topic you know, that's very serious. First of all, hey Debbie, thanks for being with us.
Debbie: Hey Dr. Ray, thank you for having me, I'm very excited.
Dr. Ray: Well just thank you for taking your time…
Debbie: Absolutely.
Dr. Ray: To come to our elaborate studios here.
Debbie: I love it
[Laughter]
Dr. Ray: You know, right off Times Square in New York. Not really, okay!
Debbie: Hot spot.
Dr. Ray: Yeah, it's a wonderful place, yeah. But anyway, we thank you for uh, Debbie, being with us. The topic tonight, I want to talk about divorce which is really a hard topic. My, my heart is not on preventing divorce, which is an important topic, but it's what happens after divorce. We have seen statistics that say that over 50%, over 50% of the body of Christ has already been through a divorce.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: And I've often said this, we know God hates divorce, right? And we've heard all the preaching and teaching, you know, how to not be divorced and you know how it's not God's will which is, you know, a lot of it's very, very true and God hates divorce and I've often said this, no one hates divorce any more than a person who's been through divorce.
Debbie: Amen.
Dr. Ray: God hates divorce, I hate divorce, you hate divorce, who likes divorce? It's awful. Uh, studies have shown that the pain of divorce is second only to the death of a child. If you can imagine how painful it'd be to lose a child. I can't even imagine, you know, that, that pain. And let's say divorce is just second to that and then the level of pain, it's awful, it's terrible. I don't think anybody ever gets married planning to have a divorce.
Debbie: Right. But in this show, one thing that makes it even more complicated and more confusing is when you're in the ministry.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: Or you're, you're pastoring and you end up in a divorce, I mean, to me that just compounds it. That just makes it more complicated, uh, tougher on so many levels. So many things happen, you, you understand, or…
Debbie: Oh, completely. Yeah and uh, your faith is certainly uh, challenged.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: You know, and um, the delusion, the disillusionment, all the stuff that, that occurs during that time because I think it's such a shock when you and your husband are pastoring a church and he's preaching against divorce but then, yet he allows things to come in, to create strife between us and then division and then he's all for divorce and changes up the scripture meanings to, to justify his behavior.
Dr. Ray: Wouldn't you say that that was a demonic scheme?
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: I mean… and I'm not condemning anybody here because you know, there's always two sides to the story and there's always a lot of factors but when you see obvious deception like that, an obvious change of mind you know, the bible, I’ve often said we battle not against flesh and blood. My pastor used to say years ago the enemy is the enemy, not people. So what you see is a demonic scheme and deception get in there.
Debbie: Yes, yes, absolutely. And it was very clear you know, what was happening. And the sad thing is he uh, he, some men came along into the church who was not for women and authority. So they sided with him that, it's almost like they formed a coup against me, you know?
Dr. Ray: You know, that's, that's tragic because what happens is um, demons will look for allies, they'll look for reinforcement and confirmation. And again, there's no condemnation for those in Lord Jesus but instead of focusing on divorce which is awful and uh, and I know that in your situation, and to be transparent, I was pastoring many years ago and my wife left me while I was pastoring and so I, I do understand. And I'm thinking… it was embarrassing.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: It was depressing, it was discouraging. Where are you God?
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And then, I know I'm a minister, will God ever use me again? Is there any life? What am I going to do?
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: Can I ever pastor again? Can, can God use a man like me? All those thoughts. And so I guess what I'm trying to get at in the show is when you're in the ministry and there's a marriage failure, it's, it's more complicated to me.
Debbie: It is very complicated. And I know that um, you know, I failed to obey what the Lord told me. Uh, in the, in the moment where, it was a very important moment. We had been, I had been on a sabbatical for six weeks and so this was a very vital decision to be made and I was at the end of my ropes. I had to get out of that house because I felt like I was being held captive and it was so dark and, and I felt like I've got to get out of this house, I can't… But the Lord spoke directly to me and said let me handle this my way.
Dr. Ray: Wow.
Debbie: Yeah, and so, if I can just say this, whatever it takes obey the Lord because He knows what He's doing and His ways are higher than our ways and see, I failed to listen because um, the, the manipulation and the attacks got stronger and stronger and I finally said I'm going to my friend's house, they have an extra room, I need a break and things just took a turn for the worse at that point. So uh, again, being disobedient to what the Lord had in mind and so… But even so, He kept putting in my heart what I was to do. Stand for the marriage, pray, fast, keep believing me, keep trusting me and so I have a stack of journals that have all these words and dreams and visions to, to prove out what he's uh, had been telling me. However, He also told me that it would end in divorce. It would end that way.
Dr. Ray: So the Lord told you.
Debbie: He told me, even though, but he kept telling me you're going to recover all. And I'm like how? You know? We were getting divorced.
Dr. Ray: So the Lord told you, it's… you knew the Lord spoke, you knew it was going to end in divorce.
Debbie: I knew.
Dr. Ray: Which is an awful word to have but the Lord's open and honest with us.
Debbie: Yeah, he is.
Dr. Ray: But He also said I'm going to restore you.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: You know, that's, that just sounds so much like God.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: Yes. Instead of what the locusts have eaten, I will restore you, I shall give you a double portion,
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: All things work for good for those who love the Lord. You're thinking how could this possibly, anything good come out of this?
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: But we have to believe that God is a restorer.
Debbie: He's a restorer.
Dr. Ray: He's a redeemer.
Debbie: He's a redeemer, He's a reconciler, He uh, you know, He was that example to us. Christ reconciled the world back to God, you know. So um, He, He pro- his promises are yes and amen in Christ Jesus. So…
Dr. Ray: So, when God says he's gonna redeem, it doesn't always mean okay, I'm going to restore this marriage.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: But when God redeems, He can restore your life. Now maybe it is that marriage being restored but, but He can restore your life.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: So, one of the things I wanted to really focus on on this show was two things. One is when you're in ministry, divorce is messy and it's awful and it's terrible however, God is still on the throne, God still has a plan. God can still do things and there is life after divorce, there is hope after divorce, there is a new vision, a new plan, and, and things can work out. You know, God's not going to drop you on your head because you've been divorced.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: And yeah, God hates divorcement but so do you, so do I, you know? And nobody… I, I never planned to be divorced, you never planned, it wasn't my plan. What-
Debbie: No, it was a shock.
Dr. Ray: And so, but, my redeemer lives.
Debbie: Yes
Dr. Ray: And I'm going to be honest, this worked for, for me. The ministry that God gave me after my divorce, which I thought I was toast. It, it's 100, it's literally 100 times larger than anything I could have ever, ever, ever imagined.
Debbie: That's amazing.
Dr. Ray: God has used me in, in multiple nations, all over the United States, all kinds of ways that I could never ever, ever- International College of Ministry, it's uh, an online college that we founded, it’s exploding. Things that only God could do. Exceedingly, abundantly more than you could ever think or ask for. So what I'm trying to say is yeah, when there's a divorce, it's like a death.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: So when there's a death, a vision dies but what God does is He gives us a new plan.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And a new vision.
Debbie: Yes. I believe that and um, it, He doesn't show you that right away and for me, it's taken four years to come through the wilderness and as we had said before, I feel that I've come out of the wilderness because it's like now I can see the sunlight and but yet I'm still right there at the border, you know I still haven't crossed over to the promised land and uh, you know. But I know that God has been faithful, He's been merciful, He's provided for me, like, unbelievable ways you know, taking care of me and I'm, it blows my mind just how much He has done for me you know. And uh, he's the one that you can really trust. He's the true husband and um, you know, I found myself saying well that's great but I want my real hug, you know. I want my physical husband, I want that relationship uh, restored but you know God wants to be the number one
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: He wants to be number one and sometimes it takes us a while to get to that place where oh, I, I always believed he was number one but then when I went through this I'm thinking well, was He always number one? But He's never left, He's never failed us. Where we come up short he doesn't, so…
Dr. Ray: I think it's interesting. Though you said you went to the wilderness and I heard another podcaster just recently talked about, when you- and I believe you have a very strong prophetic anointing and you know, of course one of the primary spirits that attacks uh, the prophets is the Jezebel spirit: that's a controlling, manipulating, dominating spirit, okay? And also that spirit tends to work through people that are narcissistic and so and it can come through family members and spouses and people close to you, but it's been suggested that that wilderness experience where you're tempted and tested, you go through a trial of fire with Jezebel but then you come through that and then you cross over the Jordan into your promised land and you know, I don't know if that's 100% accurate but I do know that I think the spirit of Jezebel which is a demonic spirit, it's a controlling, manipulating, dominating spirit, was attacking and harassing you and it's attacked me, it attacks a lot of people, it's a very common, common spirit. But I know that we learn through these attacks, we grow stronger, we grow closer to the Lord, we, we learn how to take authority, we, we learn how to really pray, we learn how to, to get into the word.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: We learn how to, you know, to do spiritual warfare on a whole nother level.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: In the midst of all this.
Debbie: Yes. If we stay the course.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: So many people will jump ship or, you know, fall by the wayside because they don't want to push through the, the pain. And there's a great book out about um, let's say, the emotional, uh, I think the name of it… Emotional, um, Wellness. It's, it's a type of emotional wellness but he talks, he goes through this whole thing where the same kind of thing was happening in his life and he was in ministry and his marriage started being affected and he, he went through a lot of stuff and a lot of crushing and a lot of painful things to come out and, and realized that God saw that they had issues that needed to be dealt with. Personal issues and marital issues and they almost lost their marriage but they got through it and one of the chapters in his book is called pressing through the wall. This is where people make a decision. You're at a crossroads, you're, you're almost through but if you don't press on through that wall and stay the course with God then you will fall back into the world or some sin or something, you know, and so um… And what we had shared today about Paul being on the ship that, that broke apart you know, and God had told him not to go but then he did go anyway and he says okay, so here's what's going to happen. You all will survive but the ship will be lost and um, and I felt like the Lord had given me that on several occasions, representing or relating to uh, the marriage. But then you brought out that about it, the ship can also represent the ministry.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: So I think it did both there.
Dr. Ray: Yeah. The ship could be your marriage, your home, your ministry, and it's interesting how that ship broke into a million pieces.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: But nobody was lost.
Debbie: That's right.
Dr. Ray: But, you know, the home was lost, the, you know, their, their home was lost, the ship was lost and a lot of things get lost in divorce but you think about Paul; so here he, he loses the ship and he's shipwrecked on this isle of Malta where he ends up healing everybody on the island.
Debbie: Right, yeah.
Dr. Ray: And then he writes two-thirds of the new testament, becomes the most, maybe next to Jesus the second most influential man in the history of the world.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: Yeah, did God have a plan? Absolutely.
Debbie: Yes, that was powerful.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: But you do find yourself feeling like oh, where do I go from here? There's, you know, everything's gone. I… my ministry's over, it's done with, you know?
Dr. Ray: You do feel that. You feel like, you feel like your ministry is gone and you have the shame and this condemnation. It's interesting that some believe that God can forgive you if you were doing alcohol or drugs or being an ex-convict but divorce is the unforgivable sin. Well that's, that's a lie, it's not unforgivable and yeah, um, half the people that are divorced, it's probably not their fault.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: You know, it's not, it's not something they wanted or they desired.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: You know, but even, so sad, people say well, you've been divorced you need to pray to God for forgiveness. Well, maybe it wasn't their fault.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: Maybe they were just a victim.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: You know. But it's, it's sad. We put that stigma, you know, on it. And then they go to the scriptures and you're not allowed to be a church leader because uh, you know, the overseers must be a husband of one wife which is they said well, you've been divorced, you're not a husband of one wife. I said no, no, no, that that scripture means you can't have multiple wives at one time. It's referring- you have to read it in context with the culture.
Debbie: Right, right.
Dr. Ray: So anyway… But I guess what I'm trying to say is when there's divorce that happens with a pastor or minister, it's really extremely complicated, embarrassing, and stuff; but there is life after that, there is life in ministry, there's a redeemer, there's our uh, there's our God still on the throne.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And there is a hope and there is a future and there still is a plan and God can still take that scripture out of Romans as all things will work for good for those who love the Lord. And you're saying how could anything good come out of this? But God will make that and my life is a living example of that. My wife Christie is incredible, I mean, I have been married to my wife Christie, I think it'll be 16 years this June,
Debbie: Wow.
Dr. Ray: She's just an anointed, beautiful, incredible woman of God and we minister all over the United States. God restored.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: He restores. There is hope, there is a vision…
Debbie: I believe that, but when you're in that moment, you feel like there isn't and you feel like well, you know. But I remember in the scriptures, I think it's in, I'm sure it's in Job says God uh, he brings you back. One time, two times, three times. He will keep bringing you back and restoring you and uh, you know, put, setting your feet back on the, the solid path that he has for us. And um, the anchor holds, that,
Dr. Ray: The anchor holds.
Debbie: It holds and uh, you know, hope is the anchor.
Dr. Ray: But you know, Debbie… and, and, just for you, and people, maybe you're in this season after divorce, okay? And it seems like you're just not going to get through this or you just, you don't want to be single, you don't want to be divorced, you don't, this is not what you want,
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: you know? But I want to tell you something. Seasons do pass, okay? And uh, you can have the grace to be single or maybe there's another, another marriage waiting for you. You know, that's up to you and that's up to God. But I know so many times when I've gone through difficult places, I'm thinking oh God, will this ever end? How much longer? How much longer? Oh, how much longer? Oh God, Oh God. But you know what? It does.
Debbie: It does end.
Dr. Ray: This too shall pass.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: And you will come through it.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: And maybe it's not where you want to be. But there is a hope and a future and you can have joy in the midst of it.
Debbie: Yes. Because the joy of the Lord is our strength.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: And so we have to keep, keep that flowing; the Holy Spirit flowing in our life if we want to have that closeness and have the joy of the Lord and the peace.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: You know, because that, that, it takes that but um. Well I, I feel like I've got to, gotten to this point where uh, now I can see that there will be possibilities that God can do this because I haven't seen um, I haven't seen yet all the workings that He's been doing in these four years like, I mean, I see things but yet I'm not seeing how He's working it all together for my good. I haven't seen that yet but I feel like I'm on the brink of that and uh, as I shared with you earlier um, I was just talking to the Lord as I'm doing my walk today and I, it just, I just, I'm like God, what am I supposed to do? What's next? Where did I go? What do you…and all I heard was follow me. And so, that's my answer. That's all I can do at this point and let everything else unfold and come together the way He wants it. But, He, He gives us hope. He, His word is full of, of hope for us and so it doesn't matter where we go or find ourself or what we're facing, none of that matters.
Dr. Ray: You know, there's peace in that when you say the Lord says follow Me. Just, just listen to that. There's peace in those words. You know, it's that peace that passes all understanding.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: And for the listeners, do you know our human nature is we want to have a plan.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: We want to know what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, uh, we, we want to get it on our calendar.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: We want to have it all budgeted out and all planned out and that's just not the way it works with God.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: God's got a plan. God knows but he doesn't show us what's going to happen the next month, three months, four months, five months down the road. And years ago, the Lord taught me this very simple principle, he said I'm not going to show you step two, three, four and five to you start trusting step one and you start trusting me in this process.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: Because my human nature wants to be in control.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And know everything that's gonna happen.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: Okay? But his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts, okay? And we have got to learn how to trust him in the process even, though we don't know what he's doing.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: And we can't see step two, we can't see step three, we can't, it's like we're reading a book and we're looking at chapter one and we want to see what's happening in chapter 18,
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: And He's not going to show us because if we did that, we would stop trusting Him and we wouldn't follow Him.
Debbie: That's true, that is so true. And you know, I have struggled and wrestled with the Lord because I've wanted certain things my way. This is what I, want this how I want the plan to go and I'm gonna push for this, you know? But it never works.
Dr. Ray: Right.
Debbie: It never works out. When you belong to God, you are not going to get your perfect way and will, you just are not.
Dr. Ray: I, I am, so, just, that's so wise, what you just said. And so many times in my life I've tried to control things and push things through and make things happen and then it just ends up being stressful,
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: difficult, and then the results are never exactly what I wanted.
Debbie: Exactly. You see it like, fall to the ground right before your eyes.
Dr. Ray: I'm gonna make it happen.
Debbie: Yeah, I'm gonna make it happen. If it's a relationship or whatever and yeah, you're gonna make it happen, you watch the silliest, crazy things happen to break those things apart because it's not God's will.
Dr. Ray: Yeah. God's will is for us to trust Him even when we do not see what He's doing. You know, in Hebrews it says faith is the substance of things not seen. Well, that's against our flesh. Our flesh wants to see it, we want to taste it, we want to smell it.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: But those who are led by the Spirit are the of sons of God. Well, I can't see what the Holy Spirit's doing but I have to trust Him and follow Him and obey Him with whatever He tells me to do.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And so many times I think God is waiting for us to trust Him in what He's shown us,
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: Before He'll show us something else.
Debbie: That's good. Yeah, I believe that, yeah.
Dr. Ray: So, I think with you, even for our listeners, I would imagine there's going to be people in the same situation you've been through. The loss of a marriage which is incredibly painful, it's, it's just awful.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: It was um, it's just like being shot in the heart. It's awful. But there is life, there is, God's not done.
Debbie: Yeah.
Dr. Ray: And you're not going to be set aside and never used again. Despite what some religious people might say, that's not true.
Debbie: Thank you, thank you. I receive that and I agree with it and I think that's a good word for a lot of people right now.
Dr. Ray: Apostle Paul was a murderer before he met the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean, Jesus redeems, He restores, and again, so many times divorce, maybe you did, maybe divorce was your idea, okay? Maybe it wasn't. But regardless, we confess our sins, we confess our part.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: He's faithful and just to forgive us, He cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Our redeemer lives. There is life and if you're listening to me, you've been through a divorce, if you had, you know, if you had a part to play in it, well repent for your part. Ask forgiveness for your part. You know, nobody's perfect, I mean, you know, we all make mistakes and we all do things that we wish we hadn't done and so repent. Lord, forgive me. Okay, it's done.
Debbie: It's done.
Dr. Ray: It's removed. All right. Next, next time don't let the enemy put it back on you. Don't let condemnation and shame come back on.
Debbie: Right, right.
Dr. Ray: Because you've already confessed that.
Debbie: Yeah. That’s so true.
Dr. Ray: No condemnation.
Debbie: he's got it, yeah.
Dr. Ray: So yeah. So you're at the Jordan River, you can see it.
Debbie: I can see it.
Dr. Ray: And you know there's a way to get across. You're not sure how yet. But you know there's going to be a way.
Debbie: And he says follow me so… He's going to lead me across it.
Dr. Ray: So, so you know He's going, he's going to show you how to get across that river; and you know on the other side of that river is a promised land.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And you can kind of see it in the distance but you're not there yet. You know what's really interesting is God, scripturally there were the enemies of God in the promised land before the Israelites got there. What were the enemies of God doing in that promised land? They were building cities, they were plowing the ground, they were raising up herds of cattle and sheep.
Debbie: Right.
Dr. Ray: They were preparing that promised land - they didn't know it - for the Israelites.
Debbie: [laughs] For the Israelites.
Dr. Ray: They were, they were, the Israelites come into their promised land; they've got vineyards, they've got cattle, they've got cities, they've got houses already waiting for them. That's the cool thing about the promised land.
Debbie: That’s the cool thing about… God set it all up.
Dr. Ray: Yeah.
Debbie: Those folks thought they were building their city for themselves and they were building it for God's people.
Dr. Ray: They were, they were. And that principle is, there's great things waiting for you, Debbie. There's great things now. There's blessings now. Today. Right? Today. There's blessings and favor and anointing today, and provision today.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: And there's a promise and a hope for the future as well.
Debbie: Yes.
Dr. Ray: It's a win-win.
Debbie: It is. It is a win-win and I'm, I'm blessed right now to be here, um, you know, despite uh, all my efforts of you know, fighting and running from God and trying to make things happen you know, he still has been working to keep me in where I need to be, you know.
Dr. Ray: So, just as we close, maybe just a final word of encouragement for, maybe there's uh, somebody listening to us and you've, you've been through that divorce that you wished it never happened, but it happened but, you're sort of in between; you feel like you're just in a waiting period. What's your final word for those people?
Debbie: Don't give up. Press through the pain and, and the wall that's before you and know that there's no greater love than the love that Christ has shown us. He gave up His life for us and so He, He is right there with you and He will see you through it. He will help you. You'll feel His love if you open your heart to that and that's one of the things I would say in my prayers; I would just say God, take this pain, replace it with your love, with your presence, and I would get immediate relief from Him. So I think that's one of the things I would say, just keep calling out to the Lord and the word says if you draw near to Him, he'll draw near to you. And so allow His love to penetrate your heart and that pain will be healed.
Dr. Ray: And He's near to the brokenhearted.
Debbie: He is.
Dr. Ray: Well let's close in prayer. Heavenly Father, I thank you for technology like this but Father, for anyone listening to us that's been through divorce or a failed marriage or maybe in the midst of a failed marriage, Lord, I thank you Father that you're still there and there's still a hope and there's still the future and you're still the redeemer and you're still the God who loves us. Lord, I ask you to pour out your love and pour out your grace. Pour out your mercy, Father, let your Holy Spirit bring your healing and redemption, Father. We rebuke every scheme of the enemy trying to destroy marriages right now for those listening to us and Father, if the marriage has already been destroyed, Father, I thank you, Father, there is another promised land and I thank you, Father, you still redeem and you still love and you still care and you still deliver. In Jesus’ name, amen.
Debbie: Amen. That's awesome.
Dr. Ray: Well thank you, Debbie. I appreciate you.
Debbie: Thank you, Dr. Ray. It's a wonderful opportunity.
Dr. Ray: Thank you for being with us.
Debbie: Absolutely.
Dr. Ray: And this is Dr. Ray Self and this has been Self Talk. We appreciate you. If you'd like to donate to help us with this ministry, we'd appreciate that. Go to icmcollege.org/donate. But we love you much, thank you so much for listening. Adios everyone. Goodbye
[Music]
Dr. Ray: The International College of Ministry is a Holy Spirit-filled, fully online accredited seminary. Listen to this amazing testimony from Ron from Biloxi, Mississippi.
Ron’s voice: Well what does ICM mean to me? I've learned more about who I am in Christ and how I relate to the Holy Spirit who lives within me. I've gained more confidence in my roles at church as a marriage and family pastor. I thank God for ICM and a passion for helping students grow and learn, such as me.
Dr. Ray: At the International College of Ministry, we are accredited and fully online. That means you take your courses anytime you want, you set your own schedule, your own time frame, you can do them early in the morning, late at night, it's totally up to you. We are now enrolling at icmcollege.org. Icmcollege.org. Mention this podcast in the comments section of your application and I will give you 10% off your entire tuition. God bless you.
