Surviving The Holidays with the Toxic Family

Narrator: Welcome to Self Talk with Dr. Ray Self, the place where you can get real answers to tough questions. Jesus promised you abundant life, but poor choices and dark forces stand in your way. It is time to learn how to overcome the obstacles that keep you out of your promised land. Knowledge of God will pave the path for you to walk in His blessing. 

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Dr. Ray: Hello, and welcome to Self Talk. I'm your host, Dr. Ray Self. I'm very glad to have a very special guest with me today. Before I get going, let me mention my key sponsor, and that's Dr. Jess Youngblood and Premier Family Care in North Alabama. He's in Blountsville, Arab, and Guntersville, Alabama. If you need medical help, you need to see Dr. Jess Youngblood. I told him I'd give him a plug. He said he didn't want a plug but I’ll give him a plug anyway because he's my sponsor and I love him. He's a Holy Spirit-filled doctor. You need to go see Dr. Jess Youngblood if you're in North Alabama. That's my promo for the day, but if you order the next 10 minutes you will get free medical care for a year. No, just kidding. Didn't mean that Jess. So anyway, this is Self Talk. I'm your host, Dr. Ray Self and I have a very special guest today and my guest is uh, Pam Goucher who's a licensed clinical social worker - Pam Goucher - and extremely qualified. And today what we want to talk about is the dysfunctional family during the holidays. And, and if you're like me and a lot of people out there, we have some dysfunction going on in our family; and during the holidays it can be a very tough time with our families. We can– there's some toxicity, there's some narcissism, all these new catchwords. There's a lot of stuff that goes on but it seems like the holidays magnifies the dysfunction and we're going to get some answers today that'll help you and give you peace. So anyway, my very special guest, Pam Goucher. So Pam, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, please?

Pam: Well, I want to thank you for having me on your show first of all. Um, and I am currently working as a therapist with Better Help which is an online um, teletherapist site; and I have enjoyed that. I have um, worked every level of psychotherapy probably for years. Inpatient, outpatient, alcohol and drug, children, adolescent, adults, geriatrics. I've probably covered, covered the whole uh, population there. Um, so I've also done medical and I've also done hospice, so um… I've also been in management. And, when I started back in the 80s, the dysfunctional family was the focus of therapy like trauma is today. Back then it was adult children of alcoholic, the um… the roles… children's roles in dysfunctional families… um, everything was about um, the family. And I think that we probably started out with the alcoholic family as the dysfunctional family and we've learned a lot since then and have incorporated all levels of dysfunction into that. So that's kind of where I um, started and that's what I really enjoy talking about.

Dr. Ray: You know, it's interesting… we were talking on the phone the other day about uh, how there's all these new um, catchphrases in, in the counseling arena. You know uh, toxic, narcissistic, and all these different things. But you know, the truth hasn't changed and the principles that we counseled back in the 80s and 90s are still true today and they're very effective and, and they work. So we can get, quote, modern, or we can just do what works. And uh, you know, I've written about the dysfunctional family and counseled in that area for a long time because I've lived through it so much. But these principles are still true and I think if we pay attention and learn and follow some of the guidelines we're going to talk about today… My goal is I want to be able to have peace in my heart despite what's going on around me during the holidays. I want to be able to enjoy the holidays and not, you know, just constantly stressed and frustrated and you know, depressed and overlooked and rejected and all those kind of stuff. You know what I mean?

Pam: Yes, yes. And that is difficult. And I know with some of my clients, even now they're beginning to have increased anxiety. They're somewhat triggered because they know the holidays are coming and for some, for some people, the holidays were never a fun time, you know? On Christmas, um, you know, maybe there were fights or drinking, or maybe they didn't have a Christmas at all so it brings up memories and emotions that sometimes aren't comfortable. Um, and I think for those who are already in therapy, this is the time when you really need to work with your therapist around those issues because that's going to better prepare you to be able to spend time with your families or even just get through the holidays in general. Um, because they can be so triggering. I think a lot of times what I um, work with my clients on is being able to get away when they're feeling overwhelmed or anxious. Sometimes it's just go outside, get some fresh air, separate yourself from whatever that trigger or that stressor is. Um, sometimes it may be just to go in the other room for a little bit but I think that it's important to be able to remove yourself when you need to.

Dr. Ray: So the family, and I– the word trigger, um, if… for our listeners you know, triggers– when uh, something happens and it triggers these feelings from the past. And like with me, um, I, I struggled with you know, growing up, just feeling completely worthless. I didn't matter, invisible, and of course, to me, it was normal. That's all I knew, was hey, Ray was to be seen and not heard. And I grew up with that. But as I got older and I'd be around my family during the holidays and I would get it and all of a sudden, I feel ignored or I feel invisible. All of a sudden, all these emotions start coming back up again and it's like I want to get out of here. And here it is, Christmas or Thanksgiving. I want to be enjoying the holiday and all I want to do is just get me out of here - I can't stand this, or I want to try to fix it. And so…

Pam: Right, right. One or the other sometimes. And you know, this is where it's important to take care of yourself. Be aware of what your body is telling you, be aware of what you're feeling what you need; because… you know, you can't. I mean, you are a person who has feelings and needs, and even though they may have been neglected um, I think it's important for us to value ourselves enough to take care of ourselves. If something starts to blow up, we have a right to take our children or our family and go home. I mean, you do not have to be a part of something that is uncomfortable or toxic. You have a right to take care of yourself. Families are not… I mean, you have to look at it as if they aren't probably going to meet your needs or understand them anyway. So by taking care of yourself and meeting them, you're doing what you need to for you. Maybe they might be upset… they're upset anyway 90% of the time so it doesn't matter what's going on with them. We have to take care of ourselves. That's the bottom line. And whatever that looks like for someone, it's important that they realize that before they get to this, this situation. I mean, you really need to kind of have some self-awareness. Think about what usually happens; how it feels; and try to incorporate some um, self-help skills and coping skills to manage, to get through that. Um, it's important. We have to take care of ourselves. Nobody else is going to do that; that's no one's responsibility but ourselves. And that look– that's different for everyone. 

Dr. Ray: And I know what helped– one thing that helped me– that, that's really good stuff, Pam. I mean, really, really good– good advice. Hope my listeners were listening to that– is expectations. And I would um, somehow I would go to dinner during Christmas - big family dinner - and, and I would get these weird expectations like okay, everybody's going to be nice and everybody's going to be loving and friendly; there's not going to be any sarcasm… uh, um, it's going to be um, you know, it's just going to be healthy and… which is ridiculous. You're hoping for that, but instead, I learned to watch my expectations and realize okay, my family's dysfunctional. I'm not expecting anything healthy here so I'm prepared for it because um, you know, expectations get us in trouble a lot.

Pam: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And then recently, I started asking myself two questions - and you mentioned this - and I started asking myself these questions. And this sounds self-centered, but I remember something you used to say years ago that self-care is not selfish. I’ll repeat that. Self-care is not selfish. God expects us to take care of ourself. So I would ask myself, Ray, what do you want? Ray, what do you need? Because yes, I'm responsible for those– to answer those questions and I think in the middle of a dysfunctional family gathering, those are really good questions to ask.

Pam: Umhm. Absolutely.

Dr. Ray: Yeah. And then sometimes um, I would get in the dysfunctional family and I would start fighting it. You know, I would start– I would argue and I would fight and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get them to change. I'm trying to get them to change their attitude toward me. So I would get defensive or I would get, I would start reacting instead of responding and I realized, oh my goodness, I'm trying to fix these people one more time. I'm trying to get them to change and be normal one more time, and that's not going to happen. And so again, my expectations– and then all of a sudden, I'm becoming a fixer. I'm trying to fix them and next thing you know, I'm trying to control them and they're trying to control me and it just escalates and it gets crazy.

Pam: Absolutely. Expectations are so important. And not only expectations of others, but expectations for ourselves. Um, I have clients and, and we all, you know, struggle with this sometimes. But being upset with ourselves for not being able to um, fix it or change it or, why did I say that? Or, why did I do that? Or, I should have said this or should have said that. We beat ourselves up with unrealistic expectations and don't allow for the fact that we're human. You know, we're doing the best that we can in difficult situations. We need to learn to be gentle and patient and kind with ourselves. I really encourage a lot of positive self-talk. I'm doing the best I can. I'm okay. It's all right, this is just for a little bit. I'm gonna go back home. I'm good. Just a little encouragement, reassurance can go a long way. And it's so much more beneficial than beating yourself up and putting yourself down. Most people have had enough of that. We don't need to continue to do that to ourselves. We have to learn to love ourselves and take care of ourselves even through self-talk and difficult situations. So those unrealistic expectations, those can be just as detrimental for ourselves as it is for other people. I mean, life is life. This is how it is. We don't have the power or control to change anyone but ourselves. We are the only person we can change or fix so to speak. Um, and, and we have to realize that we have to take the time to work within ourselves to find that.

Dr. Ray: In fact, the Serenity Prayer, you know, God helped me to… what is it…

Pam: Absolutely.

Dr. Ray: …I cannot change… change the things– that can have the wisdom to know the difference and I cannot change other people. 

Pam: No.

Dr. Ray: I know I would want to fix my fam– I didn't realize I was doing it but I would want to. It might be a Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas gathering. And I'm trying– I catch myself trying to fix my family because I don't like the way they're affecting me; I don't like the fact that they're triggering me. And so instead of focusing on myself and what I need to do, I start focusing on them and what they need to do. And that's a trap a lot of people fall into, and that's an impossible situation. And so all I'm doing is when I'm saying well, this is what they need to be doing. They don't need to be talking like that way, they don't need to be ignoring me, they don't need to be drinking, they don't need to be doing this. And all of a sudden, they have more control over me. Because they have my focus. Instead of focusing on…

Pam: Yes.

Dr. Ray: …okay, what do I need right now to be at peace? What do I, I need… um, you know, to be happy? And then if, if my expectations are… if I expect my family to be dysfunctional - and I know they're dysfunctional - and, and I have these expectations coming in that are reasonable and realistic, I can laugh because some of it's hilarious. I mean, it's like it's you can actually get where instead of being triggered, you can laugh at it because it's– some of it's so bad, it's ridiculous and it is, it's funny in a very weird way. 

Pam: It is. And sometimes when you get on the other side of this and you start to understand it and get healthy, it's like, oh, here goes dad again, or, there… there goes mom… on kind of that tangent. I'm used to this, it's just how she is, you know, no biggie. You learn acceptance. And acceptance is so important acceptance says that this is the way it is and I can either choose not to be a part of it and that's okay, some people have to love at a distance and not be a part of toxic families, and others can say, hey, I choose to be a part of this at times on special occasions, whatever, and I'm gonna be okay. This is just how they are. I'm not going to take it personal, it doesn't have anything to do with me, it has to do with them and that's how they choose to be. Now that doesn't say to endure abuse. You know, if you're being emotionally and verbally abused or your children are in that, in that environment, that's something you have to look at and really step back because no one needs to be a part of that, um… But again, we have our tolerance and we have our understanding of who these people are, and… it is what it is sometimes. You know?

Dr. Ray: It's, it's, it's difficult. But I, I think true… watching our expectations, um, knowing that the triggers could possibly be there. One thing I advise too is I can pretty much handle anything for a short period of time.

Pam: Yeah.

Dr. RayL: So I will limit my exposure. I will plan– come– I will know coming into a family function, okay, this is going to probably be crazy. This is probably only dysfunctional. This is going to probably happen, that will happen, so my expectations are okay. And then I might set a time limit for myself because you know you can, you can handle anything for a short period of time but I may not want to stay all day long.

Pam: Right, right. And you are free to exit at any time. You have to give yourself permission ahead of time to leave if you need to or do whatever it is that you need at that time.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Pam: And you have to know that that is okay even if other people don't like it, even if you get change back messages which is when people uh, sort of bully us or give us messages - verbal and non-verbal - that they don't like what we're saying or doing and they want us to change back to how we used to be or how they want us to be. It can be very uncomfortable but um, you have a right to take care of yourself. And it's true. It's not forever, it's a brief period of time and I do want to let people know that it is perfectly okay not to do that. I mean, some people don't need to go back into that. Maybe they can do a Zoom or maybe they can talk to family over the phone, but sometimes it's just not the year we need to do that or not the time we need to do that and that is perfectly okay. There's nothing wrong with loving from a distance. I love you but I don't like your behavior and I do not choose to be around you. Um, that's just what we need to do sometimes to take care of ourselves. 

Dr. Ray: And you can have peace in the midst– in the midst of that.

Pam: Yes.

Dr. Ray: You know, I want to interject this too, that in most dysfunctional families everybody– it's like a play on stage and everybody plays a part. Everybody has a role to play. So here you've had this role to play in your family and all of a sudden, you start getting healthy because you've been to counseling and you say, you know what, I'm not going to play this role anymore and I'm going to take care of myself and do what's best for me because God expects me to do that. You know, I'm the temple.

Pam: Absolutely.

Dr. Ray: And so… then… now I have to warn the listeners here. They may get upset when you stop playing your assigned role because everybody has an assigned role in the family. They may get upset but remember, you said something uh, really good: I'm not responsible for other people's thoughts, opinions, or actions. God holds them accountable for their thoughts, their words, their actions. I am accountable for my thoughts and my words and my actions only. And when you can kind of get that through your mind is, you know what, I'm sorry... An old Al-Anon expression used to be “I'm sorry you feel that way.” “I'm sorry you think that.” That's, that's all the words– give them ownership of their behavior but don't ever take ownership of somebody else's behavior. It's their behavior, it's not your behavior. It's their words, it's not your words. And we have to learn that's a boundary issue, not to take ownership of somebody else's garbage. And when people get that clear, you can actually have some peace in the midst of really dysfunctional situations.

Pam: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's almost like you are able to rise above that play and what's going on and you can see it for what it is and you realize these people that you love and care about have their own issues. Oftentimes, I help my clients to see that their family members are people and they have their own childhood issues and they have their own pain and struggles that a lot of times older generations don't even know or understand. And that isn't an excuse for that behavior but I think we can be somewhat um, understanding of why it is like it is and that it's not us. We didn't cause this; it's not our, our fault. Um, because a lot of times in a family, there's a scapegoat. And the scapegoat is the one who everybody seems to blame for whatever's going on in the family. It's so much easier for everyone to blame this, this one person than to look within themselves and take responsibility for themselves.

Dr. Ray: That's so good, that is so good. So let's just kind of summarize uh, for the listeners here. So you're headed toward the holidays, you're going to be around your family, you've got some dysfunction going on in your family - which I always used to tell my students um, “Please name me one normal family in the Bible. Can anybody name a normal family in the Bible?” Let's see, Adam and Eve. Eve comes out of his rib, that's really normal. Uh, Joseph and Mary. Let's see, she's a virgin but she has a baby. Okay, David and Bathsheba. See, Bathsheba was the wife of his captain of his army. Uh, he was taking a bath and he killed this guy so he could be with her. That's pretty normal. Abraham and Sarah. Oh, they're very normal. You know, “Let's have a child. How old are you?” “I'm 95.” Um, so there's no normal family in the Bible, um, so… But just in summary. So, we're going into the holidays. Let's summarize. Give us– Pam,  just give us some tips. So I'm going to the holidays, I'm going to be around my family a lot more than I usually am and they're dysfunctional. Tell me what to do.

Pam: I think first of all it's important to give yourself permission to take care of yourself. That's the ultimate goal here. I think that sometimes we need to, like I said, go outside, get some fresh air, um, go in the other room. Maybe try to steer clear or avoid that really toxic person that, that is, is the most difficult for you to be in close proximity with. Um, we have to be realistic about the expectations for ourself and those around us. We need to make sure that we are focused on us and not them because it's just basically a waste of time and energy to try to, to focus on other people and it also takes away the focus on us. So when we're supposed to be taking care of ourselves and we shift to other people, at that point we are no longer taking care of ourselves. We are now focused on them. Um… it is for a short period of time, it helps to stay focused on now; stay in the present. This is what's going on, this is where I am. Have a time limit like Ray mentioned earlier if that's something that's needed. And, and be aware of the fact that…

Dr. Ray: Yes.

Pam: …you will receive change-back messages. If you are different or you rock the boat or you do anything other than the status quo for your family, you will probably receive change-back messages. And those can be attitudes, those can be words, as can be guilt-tripping, shaming, manipulating, gaslighting, whatever they think they need to do to get you back in shape and control you, um… So be prepared. You're going to be okay. You have right-- the right to take care of yourself and just be prepared for whatever you need to do to take care of you. That's the key here. We can be loving and kind and nice but we also have to be aware of the situation and the reality of, of what, what that's about. And it's okay to do that. It is absolutely okay to do that. I'm not saying be rude or mean or disrespectful to people, no. God doesn't approve of that and we don't need to engage in that, but it is okay to take care of ourselves.

Dr. Ray: That is so good Pam. I really appreciate you being with us today and thank you for your for your wisdom. Now, listeners, it's up to you now to take the advice. It's okay to take care of yourself, it's okay to take care of yourself, you know? What do you need? What do you want? Those are really good questions during the holidays. And so I know you're going to have a great holiday and uh, you know, the reason for the season is Jesus Christ and that's, that should be our focus. So God bless you; thank you for being with uh… Pam Goucher, all the way from uh, was it Jonesboro, Arkansas? 

Pam: Yes, yes.

Dr. Ray: Thank you for being with us today.

Pam: I enjoyed it, thank you for having me. Thank you very much.

Dr. Ray: God bless you. Thank you everyone for listening. This is Dr. Self and this has been Self Talk. Bye-bye.

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Dr. Ray: This is Dr. Ray Self. Thank you very much for listening to my show. If this show has been a blessing to you and if the Holy Spirit so leads you, I would appreciate you becoming a partner with me so we can reach more people with the truth that will set them free. You can do this very easily by going to patreon.com/selftalkicm. That is patreon.com/icm. I appreciate you very much listening. Don't forget to check out my book, Hear His Voice, be His Voice, available on amazon.com. Don't forget to follow my show and download every episode, it really helps. God bless you.