The Harm Caused by the Entertaining Church

Narrator: Welcome to Self Talk with Dr. Ray Self, the place where you can get real answers to tough questions. Jesus promised you abundant life but poor choices and dark forces stand in your way. It is time to learn how to overcome the obstacles that keep you out of your promised land. Knowledge of God will pave the path for you to walk in his blessing.

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Dr. Ray: Hello and welcome to Self Talk. I’m your host, Dr. Ray Self. This is a show full of Spirit and truth. This is where you get real answers to tough issues. Today, I have a very special guest with me, Dr. Brian Schaeffer. Dr. Schaeffer is the pastor of Interceding Christian Center, West Memphis, Arkansas. He's also is the International Overseer of Clergy Affairs for the March of Faith International Fellowship. He's a good friend of mine, he's also, uh, he's a doctoral graduate of International College of Ministry and my listeners, you know that's my baby and I love International College of Ministry and so we encourage you always to check that out. And so Dr. Schaeffer, I'm very glad you're with us, um, thanks for being here today.

Dr. Schaeffer: Well bless God Dr. Ray, thank you for having me here.

Dr. Ray: You know, it's a, it's always an honor, privilege. I know we've been friends for a long time and we don't get to see each other as often as we'd like but we've always I think, connected in the Spirit for sure.

Dr. Schaeffer: Definitely, definitely.

Dr. Ray: Um, so you and I were having a phone conversation the other day and we were kind of talking about some issues in the church that I thought we really need to talk about in our show.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes. Um, you, you're absolutely right. You know, it's always a pleasure to talk to you Dr. Ray and I tell you whenever I do talk to you, it always seems as if you pull something out of me that I didn't know it was in me or, or, you know, I can share my heart with you because I know you are a man of faith, uh, and I believe the conversation we were talking about, well, we talked about uh, and your visit to Memphis too, but the conversation we were talking about had to do with the state of the church today. The state of the church today. And, and things that we deal with in the church, you know uh, and uh, I believe that the, the most important thing that we deal with in the church today, or the most dangerous thing we deal with in the church today is where’s we have people who have, they want their ears tickled. They don't want the truth of the Word, they want Word to agree with their lifestyle, they want words to agree with their flesh’s desire.

Dr. Ray: Yeah. And you know this issue has been around for a long time and um, I, I know that um, in scripture- we were talking about this just before the show- but this scripture to me explains a lot of things which was going on in the church and it comes from First John, um, First John 4, chapter 4 verse 5 and it says “They are from the world. Therefore, they speak us from the world and the world listens to them.” in verse 6, “We are from God. He who knows God listens to us.”

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And so, you know, I was thinking well, if you preach a worldly message, the world will come to your church and then when the world comes to your, church the temptation is wow, I must be really preaching something good. Look at the success, look at the numbers, and I think it's a trap and I think that maybe, perhaps, and I love the church, but I do believe that worldly messages have gone into the church and we have built some churches on worldly messages and it's interesting uh, the writer of John, I guess John, when he said verse six “We are from God. He who knows God listens to us,” 

Dr. Schaeffer: Right.

Dr. Ray: he's, not, who, “He who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” And sometimes when you're just preaching the truth of the gospel, your audience may be a little smaller.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes sir, most definitely. You know uh, and it was, it was interesting, you know how the conversation even sparked. Um, I was getting ready to preach on Sunday morning about two weeks ago and the Lord said something to me, I'm going to try to paraphrase what he said. Um, said something to me about uh, you know we have this thing where’s we're upset with those who have platforms and we're concerned about the platform people and the, and the poison that they spew out. Uh, whereas he said you know really you ought to look at those who want to hear, those who have itchy ears, they want to hear what those platform uh, performers have to say because it comes into agreement with their desire in the flesh.

Dr. Ray: Hmm. So, wow. So they want to hear something from the platform that comes into agreement with their personal desire.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes sir.

Dr. Ray: And I know there's a lot in the church today uh, I call it uh, I call it a spirit of illegitimacy but what that spirit does is it causes people to seek position and to seek position in order to feel good about themselves and…

Dr. Schaeffer: Right.

Dr. Ray: and others involved, there's an illegitimate spirit that drives him to that um, and sometimes I think the church feeds that.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes. And, and then I, I can't help but agree with that Dr. Ray because, I've seen it you know and it's a spirit that, that's very pervasive and it can actually affect, I'm sure it's affecting me sometime in my ministry uh, because we're seeking uh, approval of people uh, whereas we need to understand we need to have God's approval more so than people. It's okay to, to have people to know that you have an audience, a listening audience but it's more important that you stay focused on what's really important: that is your relationship with the Lord, and how that relationship with the Lord uh, can drive you uh, can drive you one way or another, you know?

Dr. Ray: Yeah. You mentioned something just before the show about uh, being taught into heaven, or what was your expression?

Dr. Schaeffer: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's something I say all the time with people you know, I, I mean being honest, I, I could sit up and sometimes I can see where it's, what I'm saying is not connecting with my audience before me or may not be connecting with people that I know are in need of that word, that word is for them in particular, right? Uh not because, I just know that the word is for them. And uh, and I'll say, I'll quote, I'll say this, I'll say, I’d rather educate you into heaven than entertain you into hell.

Dr. Ray: Educate you into heaven rather entertain you into hell.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: Listen, I think that's a very key statement for our society, our church culture today. You know, are we being entertained into hell instead of taught into heaven? Um, I know the entertaining churches are very tempting. I mean,

Dr. Schaeffer: Yeah.

Dr. Ray: I have to admit, 

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes sir.

Dr. Ray: I mean, of course with all the online stuff, I watched some guys online and go wow, this guy is really good, I really enjoy…

Dr. Schaeffer: Right.

Dr. Ray: …listening to him, I enjoy watching him but is my spirit being fed or is it, or am I just being entertained?

Dr. Schaeffer: Right, right, right.

Dr. Ray: And I'm not trying to condemn anybody, but I think the entertainment side of church has become a huge temptation because when you're entertaining, the world will come to your church and then you go wow, look how successful we are, we must be doing everything right but actually, what you're doing is you're entertaining people and they like it.

Dr. Schaeffer: Exactly, you know…

Dr. Ray: If you're preaching, if you're preaching sin and repentance and heaven and hell and salvation, it's not exactly a message that the world really wants to hear.

Dr. Schaeffer: Not as popular.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Schaeffer: And this, this is so true, Dr. Ray and as you said, I'm not, I'm not trying to condemn any pastor, you know uh, uh, you know we, we're just praying that you know, they, that the people that they connect with do understand that you know, there's, there are things, like I've seen churches whereas the entire room is painted black and they have strobe lights everywhere and I mean, it's it's nothing short of a nightclub. And, and it is, just it wrecks my spirit because it's not, doesn't deal with true relationships with the Lord, it's dealing with uh, uh that person's preference, you know, and some of those people have just came from a club last night.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Schaeffer: You know? It's dealing with their personal preferences to be entertained.

Dr. Ray: You know, I see that too. The churches um, they, they use the black paint because it looks better with the lighting and all that kind of stuff and yeah, I know that's, but when you first walk into that church you see all the black, it's, to me it's kind of, maybe I'm a little bit old school but uh…hahaha.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yeah, I understand. You don't even have to say it.

Dr. Ray: You know, what I honestly miss Dr. Schaeffer, I remember years ago that I could just walk into certain churches and feel the presence of God in the building, just feel the anointing and there was just, the spirit of the Lord was truly in this place and during the praise of worship and during the message, you would literally just- God would be talking to you, God would be dealing with you and sometimes you just could hardly move because the presence of God was so thick and so strong and you were, you were really being, your spirit was being renewed, your mind was being renewed and things were happening and I don't know, I'm hungry for that, I'm hungry for that.

Drt. Schaeffer: And Dr. Ray, I believe that those who have true relationship with the Lord, we're all hungry for that. We're hungry for, for more than just our prayer room you know, where it's the Spirit, our war room for say, where’s the Spirit has been there from years and years of, of compounded prayer, but we're hungry for venues outside of our prayer room you know, where’s a group of people will gather together and all of them are crying out to the Lord. We're hungry for that, we're hungry.

Dr. Ray: Yeah we are. We're definitely hungry for that. And, you know, Apostle Paul said in his preaching at one point, he said “this one thing I know is Christ and him crucified.” 

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And um, you know, Paul was just- he was all about Jesus and the gospel of Jesus and when anybody, like in the book of Galatians, when anybody strayed from that, the pure gospel of Jesus, Paul would get very angry. He would say things like “Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you,” and all they had done is just add a little bit of the law of Moses into the gospel and he was angry with them. I wonder what Paul would think about all this other stuff we're adding into the gospel today.

Dr. Schaeffer: Right. It's just it's so ironic that uh, the Lord chose the, the most Jewish of the Jews to reach the Gentiles. You know Paul who's probably slated to be the next high priest of, of uh, of Israel of the synagogue, you know uh, God chose him to be the one to reach the Gentiles.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Schaeffer: So it's kind of like the foolish things of the world God will use to, to mesmerize those who are haughty and high in their minds.

Dr. Ray: Yeah.

Dr. Schaeffer: Um, but I do believe that, that uh, we have to be very careful uh, to ensure that our message is pure, our message is from God, our message is not something sent to entertain or to draw people's flesh but to draw their spirit, to draw the spirit into a relationship with the Lord. I was uh, and I know I'm talking a lot Dr. Ray but…

Dr. Ray: Uh, no you go.

Dr. Schaeffer: I was um, a few years ago the Lord touched my heart you know, he speaks to me on my ride more or wherever he speaks to me, he tells me things that just blows me away. Riding more is kind of my oracle at times, amen? But I was um, listening to the Lord speak and he said intimacy above intellect. Intimacy above intellect. Now as a lot of people know, I'm, I'm kind of a, kind of a Christian nerd I guess. I'm kind, of I'm kind of… it, but it wasn't something that came uh, easy you know? I uh spent years in, in uh, special education classes believing, not, speech classes, things like that and, and it took a long time and I mean, I believe the Lord actually set me apart and didn't make me as popular as I want to be to ensure that he could pour into me. But when he said intimacy above intellect, it kind of blew me away because you know, I, I strive to be intellectually in tune but God said make sure, make sure, and this is what I'm, I'm saying. He's saying to me, make sure that you're pressing that intimacy. That's what's most important, intimacy. The intellect is all well and good, Paul is very intellectual, but make sure that you are in relationship with me because plenty of intelligent people are going to be in hell.

Dr. Ray: Yeah, see I think that intellect can, can turn out being uh, flesh.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: It could end up being our flesh. Derek Prince talked about that in his, one of his books and this guy, Derek Prince was a Oxford graduate, very intellectual,

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes.

Dr. Ray: Got radically saved I think just after world war II. But the, the intellect, and I'm not saying we should go around being dummies, but if we have the intellectual approach to, to scripture and theology but have no intimacy with God, we're missing it. We're missing the whole point of theology. So I could have a head knowledge of Christ and the head knowledge of, you know, I have a doctorate in theology and I can have it all, I can do all these great theological arguments but I think you nailed it. I think God was trying to point out something important. Without an intimate relationship, we're missing the point.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: The, the point of our intellect is to draw us into that intimate relationship with God. It's not knowing about Jesus, it's knowing Jesus personally.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes, yes. I believe the Apostle Paul was really, really saying you know, all this other stuff but I know that's just, that's just good to know those things, but it means absolutely nothing you know, if I don't know Christ and him crucified, you know? And because I, I know that a lot of people who you know, let's be honest, not many people stack up to Paul, you know? None of the disciples, even the ones that had some sense of education, they didn't stack up to Paul. But Paul knew that sometimes people look at that and they view it in the wrong way, they view it in the wrong way and, and he was making sure that people knew that it was more important for him, you know? It's kind of like what he said, he says “to live is Christ, to die is gain,” you know? It's more important for Paul that, that uh, he would have that relationship with God than to be viewed as a member of Mensah, you know?

Dr. Ray: Right. You know, Paul used the word know. “Do you not know?” Do you know, “do you not know that,” you know, “sin has no more power over you?” “Do you not know you've been crucified with Christ?” and the word know in the bible means to be intimately acquainted with. They use that same word to describe the relationship between a husband and a wife. Abraham…

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes.

Dr. Ray: …knew Sarah. And so when Paul says do you not know, do you know; do you know says are you intimately acquainted with this truth? Do you, do you have it inside of you? Do you know this? And um, it's like do you know like, you know, your wife Tina? Do you know like I know my wife Christy? Do I know? And that's critical with God and kind of back to our original point, I mean, are we being, is the church being in a trap? Are we in a uh, a bad place where we're, it, we're being more entertained than fed the actual truth and drawn into an intimate relationship? Is this entertainment aspect of the church interfering with our relationship with Christ?

Dr. Schaeffer: Hmm. Wow. And, and I would, you know, and this is from my, my viewpoint, I believe that we are in a very precarious situation uh, dealing with our intimate relationship with Christ. Um, you know, back in the day when people were coming up you know, there was, there were things where’s uh, the, the priest was the one who knew things you know, uh, right back in Roman Catholicism. It was the priest who knew Latin, who knew all these things and stuff and the people didn't know much of anything.

Dr. Ray: Right.

Dr. Schaeffer: And they played on that. So it is important to have an understanding. The bible says in all you're getting, get understand. It's important to have an understanding but it's more important to just love the Lord and I believe that back in the day when our grandmothers prayed, they didn't have all of the understanding but they love the Lord with all their hearts and things move for them based on them loving the Lord with all their hearts and more so than their understanding of, of you know, the things dealing with theology.

Dr. Ray: And I think when Paul uses the word know, he's trying to get you to know more than a head knowledge. He wants you to have this intimacy with the truth which is Jesus Christ, an intimate heart knowledge you know, with Jesus.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes sir.

Dr. Ray: And to me, the purpose of the bible is to give us information and to teach us so we can have that relationship, that intimate relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit glorifying Christ inside of our body and you know, I believe that the Lord is talking to us every day and most of the time we just don't hear, we're too busy.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes,

Uh, intimate- God sent Jesus to die on the cross and rise from the dead so we can have an intimate relationship with him but we reduce it. We got two traps, one trap is it's all in the intellect, it's just nothing but intellect which is going to end up being flesh, or it's just entertainment. Which- I don't know what entertainment feed.

Dr. Schaeffer: Wow. 

Dr. Ray: And then we're missing that intimacy, that intimate relationship with Christ.

Dr. Schaeffer: Wow, that's. You know Dr. Ray, as that is, I believe that you hit the head on the proverbial nail, the nail on the proverbial head, yeah, the nail on the proverbial head because uh, those are some of the challenges, that and both those things are fleshly, both of those things are fleshly you know, we, we desire to be entertained but we, you know, we also uh, desire to be viewed as intellectual you know, so yeah. And that's the challenge that the church is really facing and, and pastors need to press and push through uh, in their relationship with the Lord and insist on the relationship that the people have with the Lord is genuinely with the Lord, not necessarily with them, not necessarily him, it's more important to have it with the Lord.

Dr. Ray: Amen. You know, just kind of as an example um, I, I know my wife, okay? And I know about my wife. I know it’s, that my wife's uh, from Florida, she was born and raised in Winter Park, Florida, she went to Winter Park High School, she was a cheerleader, she was Christian Athlete of the Year, I know she went to Rollins College, I know that she graduated with honors, you know, I know that she used to be a triathlete and all these amazing things about my wife and I know all about her and I could just stop right there and have no relationship, I mean, I could read all that about my wife, 

Dr. Schaeffer: Wow.

Dr. Ray: I could know all kinds of things about my wife.

Dr. Schaeffer: Wow.

Dr. Ray: But I don't only know about her and her history and her story, but I know her intimately and I think this is what God is asking for us. Not just to know about him…

Dr. Schaeffer: My God.

Dr. Ray: but to know him intimately,

Dr. Schaeffer: My God, my God.

Dr. Ray: To know Him,

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: to have that relationship with him. 

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: You need to be taught, but the purpose of teaching is to help you know him.

Dr. Schaeffer: Amen. Amen. I, I was looking at um, you know, you know people always say that God, you know, you talk about the silent years. You know, the time period between the Old and the New Testament. They talk about that and they said God is, was silent during the time period. It wasn't the fact that God was silent, it was the fact that people were not listening. There was no so-called great prophecy, there was no great prophets that came into being you know, during that time period with the exception of one book I read that talked about one prophet that was listening to the Lord but it wasn't a whole bunch of prophets you know, like during the time period ending the Old Testament, um, but Amos 3 and 7 says something like well the uh, Lord doesn't do anything without revealing what he's going to do so it means to me that God uh, that God is not- there's somebody who knew what God was going to do. God tells somebody what he's going to do but a lot of times people don't listen to those who God tells.

Dr. Ray: That's true and you know, in the old covenant times, the Spirit would fall upon a prophet or king, um, usually a prophet and then he would prophesy and the people would listen. Of course, in the New Testament times we have the Holy Spirit within us,

Dr. Schaeffer: Ah yes sir.

Dr. Ray: And we have the voice of God residing within our heart. I guess my prayer is for the church is, a church should be all about teaching us, about Christ, about the faith in order to facilitate a relationship with him and then also my heart too is let's give the Holy Spirit room in the church to operate.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes.

Dr. Ray: And I think if we're so caught up in the lighting and the, the sound and the, the led lights, and I've seen some with smoke machines and all that kind of stuff. Hey, if you want to do all that I guess you can do all that but is the presence of God there? Are we being taught and encouraged to enter into the presence of the Lord and to have that relationship and that conviction or are we being entertained? I think if we're being entertained, we're going to end up, I think we'll end up in trouble, I mean, I like to be entertained, I like to be entertained,

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes.

Dr. Ray: But I think that the church is doing a great disservice to people with the entertainment aspect, missing the teaching and also the presence of God that should come through the teaching.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, I agree with you. But you know, it's funny you know, we're old enough to remember uh, back in the 70s there's a commercial that said is it live or is it memorized? You know, some, some things are entertaining you know, they're entertaining uh, but does not mean that those things are edifying. Um, I, I love to be entertained but there's a time to be entertained, but there's a time to be edified.

Dr. Ray: Right.

Dr. Schaeffer: You know, you can’t really enjoy the entertainment um, uh, wholesomely unless you have the edification inside of you.

Dr. Ray: Right. And so, it's interesting, Paul said he who prophesies edifies, encourages, comforts and exhorts us and that's the word of God and that's the pure word of God.

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes sir, yes sir.

Dr. Ray: So, I don't know, I um, I think that, that maybe the best thing that could happen if you're a pastor and uh, you're entertaining, I mean, that's, that's wonderful but are you speaking the truth and helping people enter into the presence? 

Dr. Schaeffer: Yes, yes.

Dr. Ray: Where they can get their healing and their deliverance and their freedom. The Spirit of the Lord God's upon us to do what? To set at liberty those that are captive. Is that what we're doing? Are we missing the point and strictly entertaining?

Dr. Schaeffer: Wow, wow, I, and, and, and I can't agree with you more, Dr. Ray, because I know that in my preaching you know, I, I'll have something funny to say you know, uh, not purposely having something to say but sometimes it occurs that way, you know uh, people have to understand that Jesus, the Lord has a sense of humor. If he didn't you know uh, a lot of us wouldn't be existing if he didn't have a sense of humor. Paul even said, even Paul said uh, up to this point God just kind of winked and nodded. It’s like God was giggling at the foolishness that you were caught up in but now you're held accountable for it.

Dr. Ray: Right.

Dr. Schaeffer: So it's important to have those elements within it but most important is to have the things that nourishes you. That's what's really that's what's most important.

Dr. Ray: Yeah, amen. Amen. So, kind of in wrapping up, I want you to have the final word here. What, what would you say to maybe church leaders or pastors or maybe just church members listening today? What would be your final, maybe encouragement for them?

Dr. Schaeffer: Well bless God. The legitimacy of your relationship has to be through the Lord. It cannot be through anyone else. It is okay to acknowledge your leader, your pastors and stuff but they're not the ones that gonna answer for you so it's, it's more important to have that personal relationship with the Lord and not a relationship that that you uh, inherited but a relationship that you developed; and it's okay to inherit certain blessings and within your family and certain teachings, that's okay, but it's more important that you have a relationship with the Lord yourself because when he calls your name, he's calling your name, he's not calling someone else’s name to account for you, he's calling you to account for yourself. So um, I guess I'm trying to wrap this up. What's really important is to make sure, make sure that you are seeking the Lord yourself daily; and not just daily but every moment, every hour every, minute. Let that flesh get under subjection, seek the Lord daily yourself for what's really important, uh, and, and love him with all your heart and the Lord is going to guide you and you know, let's be real, there are going to be some people in every denomination, they're going to make it into the kingdom because they sought a true relationship with the Lord they sought a relationship with the Lord. There will be people who are caught up in all types of, of uh, of things whereas God sprinkles salt everywhere, right? He wants us to be the salt of the earth so he sprinkles us everywhere, those who really love him uh, so that's, that's important for us to make sure that we're pressing forth with our own personal relationship. I guess it's the final word is to be said, personal relationship with the Lord. It's the most valuable thing that you can have.

Dr. Ray: Amen. That's, that's it, that's it. Thank you so much, Dr. Brian Schaeffer um, pastor of International um, uh, Interceding, say it again, Interceding…

Dr. Schaeffer: Christian Center

Dr. Ray: Christian Center.

Dr. Schaeffer: Interceding Christian Center

Dr. Ray: Interceding Christian Center, I’ve been there. Um, in West Memphis, Arkansas and uh, International Overseer of Clergy Affairs um, for the March of Faith, uh, International Fellowship and so we're very honored to have you. Would you just close us with prayer? 

Dr. Schaeffer: Oh, yes sir, hallelujah. Father, we thank you for this time of sharing, this time of just pouring out our hearts to you, Father. Father, we ask right now that Lord God, you would just continue oh God, to bless the ministry, the podcast of Dr. Ray. Lord God, let it not be limited oh God, by space or time oh God, but Father God, let it reach into the depths of every place, every dark place, every place oh God, that is without light. Every place oh God, that is void of you, let it reach into every place. So Father God, and Father God, we thank you for this time of sharing, we ask oh God, you continue to bless, continue to move by your power and your might, oh God. It's in the matchless name of Jesus, we pray further for the peace of Israel, God, and peace in all the nations that are at war. In the name of Jesus we pray, amen, amen.

Dr. Ray: Thank you again, Dr. Schaeffer. You've been listening to Self Talk with Dr. Ray Self. I appreciate you listening today, be sure and on Apple Podcast, wherever you listen to our show, to like and subscribe. Give us a rating, that really helps us reach more people with the gospel. Be sure and check out our website at icmcollege.org, icmcollege.org. You can get all kinds of free stuff and maybe you want to get a Holy Spirit-filled accredited degree. icmcollege.org. This is Dr. Ray Self. Thanks again and God bless you.

Dr. Schaeffer: God bless 

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