Francesco Crosara: jazz journeys from Rome to Seattle

(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)

LP: I wanted to ask you, since you moved to the Seattle area, how have you found the scene, and how have you found the opportunities? Is it vibrant? Are there opportunities?

Francesco: Yes and yes. Absolutely. I find it very vibrant because I don't know, it must be the Pacific Northwest air or the feel. I find musicians and people in general to be very open, very no-nonsense, no posing.

I lived sixteen years in the Southern California area, where the overall attitude is definitely different. So, I find that in the Pacific Northwest, there is more acceptance, more dialogue, and more discourse. I'm actually very surprised that in the seven years I've been here, I've been able to achieve so much, to perform with just about anyone and in most of the venues like the Royal Room or Tula's before they closed.

It's just a wonderful place. Again, I find the musicians, producers, and everyone around the music scene to be authentic, which is a very precious asset.

LP: It's been interesting to observe that it seems like coming out of the pandemic as certain things closed and went away, but there's a lot that's open, opening up anew, like what Thomas is doing with the Jazz Fellowship and certainly the Royal Room. It looks like there's something there every night. It's really incredible.

When I first moved here, I got here a little bit before you. I moved here in 2016, and I came from New York, where I had lived for about twenty years. I was so worried I wasn't going to be able to find the kind of music that I liked. But when I first moved here, I lived about a block from the Royal Room.

Francesco: Oh, wow. So you were there every night!

LP: Completely by accident, yeah. Completely, you know, I didn't know. It was wonderful. And I remember seeing Wayne Horvitz throughout the late '80s and '90s in New York. So it was very nice to step into that environment and find him again over here doing something that was so needed and so important.

Francesco: Yes, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I'm really surprised to see that if you look at the major metropolitan areas, New York is king and will always be. There is no undisputed prize there. But LA has never been particularly good for jazz.

I'm talking about jazz specifically and even other areas because I've been looking at Boston, Denver, and other major metropolitan areas, but honestly, jazz is not really well served. And somehow, Seattle is just great.

LP: It's really interesting you say that because I think there are a few different competing forces that I observe. One seems to be, I talk about this a lot with guests on the podcast; growing up, the dialogue around jazz was always like, "Is jazz dead?" That was sort of the '80s and maybe going into the '90s thing.

There was a pull towards what I would call the Wynton Marsalisization of fetishizing that one era, if you will. Jazz became more about conservatory or concert hall music and less about clubs, losing its connection to the fact that it was dance music at one point. It was the pop music of the time.

But the counterforce to that seems to be young people, especially those coming through hip-hop. We talked to a lot of people here in the electronic music space who are incorporating jazz elements into the music more and more. So, I find that very exciting. It's great to see jazz as part of almost a pop or even underground rock dialogue again.

Francesco: I think so. Absolutely.

LP: It's good for the music.

Francesco: Absolutely.

LP: There's so much to get into with you, but it would be hard to talk to you and not ask you a little bit about your early life and your early exposure to the music. Can you go there a little bit? Tell me about how it all started.

Francesco: Yes, it started, and this might seem strange, but basically, my mother always told me that she kept on performing because she was quite a well-regarded vocalist in Italy. I'm originally from Italy, where I was born and raised.

So she only said that she kept on performing up to the fifth month of pregnancy. She said, "My son, you have been on the stage even before you were born. You were destined to have music in your blood, in your veins, and your overall being," which is true, because basically when I was born and then was raised in Rome, she was listening to Miles Davis and basically all of the greats. At the same time, I was one year old, playing with a doggy, having a great time, and assimilating all of that.

So, that was really early, obviously. Then, as I grew up, she made sure that, basically, I found my own way and never imposed anything. As a matter of fact, out of rebellion, when I turned ten years old, and that was a perfect time to join the conservatory maybe, which I did, Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia in Roma, out of rebellion, I just said, "I'm going to do classical music because this jazz thing that mom does, it's not serious enough." You know, as a ten-year-old, of course, we know best.

For three years, I actually studied piano and classical music, which, to this day, I love, obviously, all of the great composers. It's just phenomenal music. But what's interesting is what happened in those three years. I discovered an innate talent that I had towards composition. I excelled in harmony, theory, solfeggio, what it was called, and composition itself.

Well, I progressively failed at the piano, conservatory style, because obviously I had to learn all of the classical pieces—Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, you name it. I couldn't stick to the written page. So, there was something in me that was pushing me towards the improvisational element of jazz.

And so ultimately my teacher said, "You are not cut for piano in general." And I received an F, failed on piano, couldn't even do a recital. Whereas my composition teacher was saying, "Your concepts of music, even though you're a young kid, but you are going to go far with your ability to write, put together melodies, harmonies, and basically big things. Don't give it up. Don't give it up."

I remember when I was fourteen, at that point, again, with mom, we talked about, "Okay, what do you want to do next? Since piano obviously doesn't seem to be the right thing, do you want to change instrument or what? Do you want to stop conservatory or what?" Because at that point I had to enter the official high school in the Italian system and I really didn't know what to do.

I remember that at age fourteen, she said, "Okay, I'm going to take you to the jazz club with me. If anything, to feel better about yourself. It's not good to be dinged so heavily when I thought that you would be the next Arthur Rubinstein or something."

So we went to the club, and that was truly the turning point because at that point, I saw, first of all, this amazing atmosphere, camaraderie, and the musicians being happy playing. They obviously regarded her with high esteem due to her stature in the overall Italian music scene. And so I saw, wow, these people are really cool. And this music sounds really fun. And I had come out of a very stern and very stuffy environment. And suddenly, I discovered not just the music, but the feel, the joie de vivre, if you will.

And so, at that point, that was my turning point. At age fourteen, at that point, I said, "Okay, you know what? I'm sticking to the piano. I love the instrument. It's the most complete instrument, eighty-eight keys of wonder, basically." That classical will remain within me, but I need to discover what this jazz is all about.

At that point, I transferred to another conservatory outside of Rome, in Frosinone, which is an hour away, where mom's pianist was teaching jazz courses specifically.

LP: Was it rare at the time to have a conservatory with a jazz program?

Francesco: Yes. In the '70s, we're talking 1974. So, at the time, Italy was very rigid. After all, you think about Italian music, of course, opera, Verdi, Puccini, all of the greats. Jazz was at the beginning of its development and popularity in Italy, more so in Italy than Europe, because actually, if you think about Paris, oh man, jazz had been very popular forever since the '40s and before.

Scandinavian countries have always been at the forefront, but Latin countries were not so much at the time. But anyway, those were the early days. After doing an additional couple of years at Frosinone and therefore learning more about combo, jazz, playing together, arranging, and all of that good stuff, at that point, I was hooked.

So I made it my artistic calling. However, the story is not over there because my dad, who was very much a businessman, gave me the opportunity to study abroad after high school. So, basically, do college abroad. We were talking about potentially coming to the United States, which was really exciting for an Italian kid. "Oh my goodness, let's go, let's do it."

But he stipulated, "My son, I'm not going to be sending you to study music and basically waste your potential, your career."

LP: No Berklee for you. (laughter)

Francesco: No, exactly. Exactly. And so ultimately, I agreed, okay, I would be getting a serious degree, quote unquote. So, I actually majored in business administration. I went to the University of Southern California, good old USC. Four years later, I had my BS in business administration.

But the music was so strong that all of my electives were in music the entire time. I joined the USC Jazz Band, the big band, basically. And so for the four years, it was just heavenly because there was so much talent there. It was a revolving door of the greats who would teach and perform. And so I got to perform with Lionel Hampton, with Freddie Hubbard, and with Woody Shaw, just one after another. And it was so exciting.

LP: Something that stands out for me in your biography and your journey is this idea that even from a young age through your mother, you had exposure to a lot of greats and really going beyond that. It was clear that your mother knew Louis Armstrong, but did you meet him?

Francesco: No, I did not meet him. She did meet him. The ones that we were very close to because the idea that Italians are always so expansive and so joyful and boisterous, it is really true, actually. So Mom, who also had a career in broadcasting and production, promoted concerts and then ultimately got into education.

She actually would bring in the greats, Dizzy Gillespie and Duke Ellington. She had a long-time relationship with Ray Charles, Max Roach, and Abbey Lincoln. That was when I was really young. And I got to see these as human beings coming over, having dinner at the house, and basically having a great time. I really developed a personal relationship myself with Dizzy, for example.

I do not even understand who Dizzy Gillespie was or what he represented in the history of jazz. To me, it was Uncle Diz, funny, just out of control in a way, and, I mean, just the most incredible person. Another big friend and mentor for me was Chick Corea. And Chick is, to this day, my biggest focus point in terms of composition, of his technique, his concepts of music, not the Scientology part, but certainly his overall communication and the way that he dealt with the audience on stage, off stage.

LP: Did he ever directly drop knowledge on you? Did he give you words of wisdom, or did he sit down and show you a thing that helped you get unblocked at the keyboard, or was it more of an indirect mentorship?

Francesco: Well, Chick was more indirect. Yes, and I have some letters that we exchanged way before the internet existed. He was the kind of type that actually would write a letter to a fan. For example, I remember asking him, "Chick, what is the formula to be successful in the jazz world or in music in general? Is there a particular formula, or what is it that you do that makes you basically the legend that you are?"

And it was no nonsense. And he would say, "Well, it's really simple. Record an album with a band, take the band on the road to promote the album, and then keep on doing it, and then rinse and repeat with the next one, and the next one, and the next one." And if you think about it, wow, Chick's discography is legendary.

He decided to do whatever he wanted to do. And he would go on the road, and he would do whatever he would do, and then would do it again, and again, and again, in a very linear, in a very sort of no-nonsense way. I don't know how much I learned from that, but I realized...

LP: It certainly makes it sound easy. Just go out and do it! (laughter)

Francesco: Go out and do it, exactly. Record the album, get the band, take the band on the road, and then, when you're done, go on with the next cycle.

LP: Yeah. Yeah.

Francesco: Instead, Dizzy, he taught me about the importance of the flat five. So basically, in the seventh chord, you have the seventh with a minor, the half-diminished basically. And you can hear it in "Night in Tunisia." (sings the melody to "Night In Tunisia") I mean, there is that passage where the flat five was the key chord that both he and Bird perfected more than ever because before then, jazz was more into typical sevenths and maybe nines.

All of the complexity came with bebop, harmonically speaking. And Dizzy was great on piano, by the way. He would teach me things on the piano, which always freaked me out because, wow, Diz. Max Roach was also a great pianist.

LP: It's interesting you say that. Every once in a while, you'll come across a photo of a jazz great known for a specific instrument. You'll see them sitting at the piano, and you realize, wow, so many people, first of all, their first instrument as a child was the piano or they compose on the piano.

Francesco: Yes, absolutely. And Dizzy did that for sure because he needed to have basically the full spectrum in front of him, as opposed to with the trumpet. I guess you can do it, but there's nothing like being able to verify your harmonies and your structure.

LP: Well, the other thing that strikes me when you tell that story about Dizzy is, I wanted to ask you about coming from, if I can say it this way, the European conservatory foundation that you had, how did you find your blues to get it into the music, right?

Because in my mind, you can't have jazz without some blues in it. And I don't mean emotional blues. I mean, maybe that's an aspect of it, but how do you find that part of the music? How do you find the soul to make it your own?

Francesco: Yeah, I wonder if, in my case, it was genetic. I mean, coming from mom, she would play LPs from the greats incessantly. I mentioned Miles when I was one year old, so that had to be Kind of Blue, probably. So basically, in my specific case, even though I was studying classical, but at home, what was being played was all of the blues feel.

LP: Yeah.

Francesco: Understanding, just assimilating syncopation, assimilating everything antithetical to the classical, which tends to be very structured. God knows jazz is way more unstructured, leaves room for improvisation, and provides exactly the blues. I mean, it allows your feelings to come through the music. In my case, it was happening organically at home.

LP: Is it fair to say that in conservatory education, you talked about having this sort of natural ability with composition and harmony? I would have to think that education certainly didn't hurt that.

Francesco: Did not hurt at all. Yeah. Absolutely. And to this day, I think about the notes in Italian. People think about numbers in their own native language. So, same with notes. To me, it's Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si. Even when I write lead sheets, of course, I use C, B-flat, and E-flat. I can speak the lingo, but the music is in my own native tongue. And I learned it in that way.

LP: One other question about your mom. Would there be an American analog to her? I was thinking the closest I could come up with would maybe Marian McPartland, someone who was an artist as well as a journalist and interviewer, but was she more popular because she was on television, your mom?

Francesco: The way that she told me, because a lot of this I had to get it from her own telling of her own story. So she said that Italy, after the war, after World War II, of course, like the rest of Europe, was starved for cultural and economic expansion. So, Italy discovered jazz. Politically speaking, economically speaking, the United States had a huge impact on Europe as a whole in terms of reconstruction.

And so culturally, it came the music that really took place. And so mom, what she told me, always said that she was one of the very first singers, along with her friends and musicians, who embraced this new music and brought it to the forefront. Therefore, she was one of the first adopters, if you will, as a musician as a performer.

And so, obviously, the Italian RAI, radio and TV, they looked at her and her cohorts as the original Italian jazz people. From there, she got radio programs and TV programs, so she would interview, and you probably would enjoy this. I have about forty or fifty audio interviews that I have transferred to digital from reel-to-reel of mom interviewing during her trips, and she would go to New York, she would go to Juan-les-Pins in France, basically to all of the festivals.

Interviewing Dizzy, Duke, and Ray, many of Ray, Woody Herman, Freddie Hubbard, and Jim Hall. I mean, you hear their voices, being as cheeky as she was, and I learned that bit from her. She would ask them uncomfortable questions, that were personal, that were strong.

Asking Ray Charles, "Tell me about racism in America. How that has impacted you." Talk about racism straight on in interviews. It was very daring, very enlightening. And what's amazing is that all of the musicians, her friends, basically, they felt very much at ease. Therefore, in these interviews, you could hear them talking matter-of-factly about what is going on.

LP: What an important archive. Do you have a sense of what you might do? How will you use them, or is it just for your family?

Francesco: I'm looking at it. Mother passed away last year in June at age ninety-two. However, three years before she wrote her memoirs, her memoirs were published by the University of Illinois in all places. She was very, it was called Dizzy, Duke, Brother Ray, and Friends. She didn't choose the title, but it was nice, and it immediately puts it in perspective.

That book had many of the stories in these recordings, and you can actually read them. She then wrote a sequel to the book, which is unpublished yet. So I'm thinking about what to do posthumously. And the recordings, we'll see. I am thinking about the Library of Congress, but potentially as a donation. You know, I have no desire to make it a commercial venture, but it should be a cultural treasure.

LP: Absolutely.

Francesco: Because you hear these people and the things they do and the things they say are just really fascinating for anyone who loves this music like we do.

LP: Before we jump into the specifics of your music, I wanted to throw a few pianist names at you, and maybe you could tell me a few words as to what you got from them or what you think of them or how they impacted and inspired you.

Francesco: Okay.

LP: I want to start with Herbie. What can you tell me about your sort of musical relationship with Herbie Hancock?

Francesco: Yeah. Personally, I met him once, and therefore nothing there. But musically speaking, Herbie is, wow, he's so magical. My favorite albums of Herbie might not be what other people would think. Of course, I love the Miles period and what he did with Ron Carter, Wayne Shorter, and Tony Williams. I mean, it was just great, but I really loved the things that he did with the albums just ten years ago, such as those concoctions where he brought all of those different artists.

One was Possibilities, and then he did yet another one. Then he did Joni Mitchell's "River," for which he got the Grammy. So what I really love about Herbie is his innate ability to bring together the jazz component along with the pop or rock or folk or no matter what, and be able to create an incredible mix. And the result is just extraordinary. And so I really love that, the way that he can bring so many genres together and then bring them to the highest degree.

LP: How about Keith Jarrett?

Francesco: Ah, Keith, Keith, Keith. Yes. Mom detested Keith because of his personality. (laughter)

LP: Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to ask personally, because yeah.

Francesco: Personally, personally, yeah. And also he, she couldn't understand, "Why is he moaning during his performances? That is just so unprofessional." She had a very kind of black-and-white view of the world.

For me, Keith Jarrett, wow, his improvisational ability is bar none. I mean, it's unconstrained by any convention. The way prior to his stroke, sadly, the way that he would be able to sit at a concert and void his brain and just churn out, yeah, absolutely.

Of course, The Köln Concert will always be his greatest achievement. And it's funny to read about the circumstances, how he was at the wrong concert with the wrong piano, and he was actually sick, and so many things that were wrong, wrong, wrong. That then yielded such an incredible piece.

I really love his affinity for music that transcends jazz and gets into almost folk Americana. I don't know how to explain it, but in songs like "Country," he has a beautiful way of expressing emotions in ways that can be extremely linear and simple and, at the same time, extremely complex.

LP: It's interesting you point that out because I feel like that part of his legacy is not discussed quite as much. I think part of it is this, the long association with ECM, that European sound, which is wonderful. But yeah, I feel like there are a lot of artists now who even have that influence. Maria Schneider does a lot with what you were saying, almost like Americana influences in the jazz context. There's definitely that lineage.

Francesco: Yes. There's definitely a linearity. And in my new album, at least two of my songs have a Keith imprint. "Circular Motion" and "Passion" and the beauty of having just some simple triads. You hear this major or minor, without any alterations. And then the way that he can surprise you by adding the movement, "Country," that's such an incredible song because it is so simple, and you would think, okay, this is a classical piece, but then it turns and it becomes richer and it's just, yeah.

LP: One more. McCoy Tyner.

Francesco: McCoy. Yes. He was a really good friend of Mom. I got to meet him as well. McCoy, percussive galore; his block chords and the way that he really would dominate the piano.

LP: That left hand. But the right, too, I mean, the speed and the precision.

Francesco: Oh, yes, absolutely. I almost would say that Coltrane would not be Coltrane without the McCoy and the Elvin Jones component.

LP: I talk about this a fair bit with guests on this podcast because McCoy is my musical guy. I always found it interesting that he never went electric at all in the generation he came up in. His innovations seem to have always been around composition, but arrangement as well. I always wanted to talk to him about it.

And towards the end of his life, I had the opportunity to talk to him. I used to see him obsessively in New York. He didn't seem like he was in the right place to have that kind of a substantial conversation; I guess there's no other way to say it. So I didn't want to; it was a case of like, "Don't meet your hero." And it just didn't seem fair to talk and ask him to be that in-depth about things, but...

Francesco: Yeah, that's true.

LP: So curious about that. You said it earlier: the piano is almost limitless, and it's this expansive world, but it is so fascinating. He just never went there.

Francesco: And Keith Jarrett regretted the early days with Miles where Miles said, "You're going to play that Rhodes." After that, I don't think there is any evidence of Keith ever touching an electric keyboard again, which he despised. Versus Chick, oh man, did he embrace electronics in ways that were just, and Herbie obviously. Another thing that I love about Chick and Herbie is the fact that there are no limits.

So acoustic is great, but the electric has a place.

LP: So let's pivot then to your work. When did an electronic instrument first become part of your palette?

Francesco: It was actually, I remember the year it was again, 1974. And that's because one of our guests, home guests who became a really good friend was this Brazilian composer-pianist by the name of Eumir Deodato.

You might remember Deodato, who was very famous in the '70s. He did this rearrangement of Also Spruce Zarathustra and then a lot of basically cool Brazilian rhythms. He had an electric piano. I remember that he was there. He came to Rome for a big concert, and we went to visit him at his hotel.

He had the Rhodes in the hotel room, which had obviously been procured by the production company. And so I saw this thing, and I twinkled on it, and I thought, "Oh, this bell-like sound is just so sweet." At that point, I hadn't discovered Chick or Keith or Miles, certainly not the rock side of mine. The first was Eumir, but after Eumir opened my eyes to the fact that, "Ooh, the electric piano, that is so much, so cool."

That's where I discovered that, wow, talk about electric piano, talk about Rhodes, well, Chick Corea, Return to Forever. And before that, obviously, the Miles years. And so I was completely taken. The first electric that I was able to afford out of my own little savings was an old Wurlitzer. Didn't quite like the Wurlitzer sound, but okay, I played that. And then finally I got a Rhodes. And I still have a Rhodes at home, although 120 pounds, I don't take that to gigs.

LP: Yeah. And there are so many good synthesizers that really do get the Rhodes sound, I think, has been captured pretty well.

Francesco: Yes. Very, very much so. But I love it. I love it.

LP: What's your acoustic? Do you have an acoustic or a piano at home?

Francesco: Oh, yeah. I have a Yamaha C6. That's a conservatory model, one inch shy of seven feet. So, 6'11" which makes a conservatory model full grand without going overboard. Chick had the nine-footer. Crazy. And to this day, I love the acoustic. And I love synthesizer. And that's why, for this album, I really wanted to feature both. Although, honestly, in all of my previous albums, I've always featured both.

LP: Yeah, it's interesting. It seems like in some of the material I read in anticipation of our talk. However, the synthesizer was present before; it gets spoken of in a way on this album as though it gets a little bit more of an intentional statement about having that color. I don't know. I don't know if I'm articulating it well, but it does stand out as something that was a point that was made that there is, yeah.

Something else that I really enjoyed about the record was the way the tracks were sequenced. It isn't as though here's side one, and it's acoustic, here's side two, and it's got some synthesizer on it. Isn't that clever? It's like what served the flow of the music.

Francesco: Right. I'm trying to tell a story in a way. I don't know what story that is, but I basically go through modes through the bands because I have three different bands, which may be crazy, but I'm glad I made that decision. And it's true.

I wanted to allow someone not to get bored after three or four songs that are all acoustic and then suddenly become electric. That would be maybe an academic approach. Here is this, here is that, and let's be very, very specific.

LP: That also allows the listener to bring their bias to it if you do it that way because then they'd be able to say, well, I'm not going to listen to the electric stuff. I don't like that. (laughter)

Francesco: Right!

LP: So three bands. I would think it's hard enough to get a trio together in this day and age to get everybody into the same place at the same time. You do all the work that goes into making a record at times three. Where do you find the young cats?

Francesco: At the same place, at the Royal Room, as we were saying. Again, that goes back to what we were saying, why Seattle is great. Seattle is an amazing breeding ground where you have great talent down to the high school level because I learned how incredible Roosevelt and some of the high schools here produce incredible musicians that then grow and then become mature and continue on.

And I specifically wanted to have the Chick approach because if you think about it, first I wanted to have my own version of the acoustic band, the electric band, and that's vintage Chick, basically from the '90s. And then I also wanted to have what I call a world band, or world music, because a couple of my songs are more culturally diverse, if you will. I specifically wanted to feature different musicians because they had a different overall feel.

Let's talk about the drummers. In the acoustic, I chose Mark Investor. Mark Investor is in his 60s. I mean, we are just about the same age, and we have the same overall appreciation of life. We have lived quite a bit already, and therefore, our playing is in a particular way.

Then right in the middle, I have D'Vonne Lewis, such a tasty, but tasteful player, I believe is in his forties. So you now have middle age, not quite 20 years later, maybe at the pinnacle of his career, so to speak.

Ultimately, I have Xavier Lecouturier, who I believe was 24 when we recorded, which was a couple of years ago. Again, a completely different age. Therefore, power, great ability, innate ability, if you will. Obviously, experience will tell. And for me, it was so exciting the idea that I could put three generations of musicians into doing my own music, tailor-making, and choosing the songs for those musicians because I knew that they would play them in a particular way.

Now, bass-wise, the acoustic band was completed by Clipper Anderson and Clipper, who are also in the same age group. I asked Clipper and Mark, "So, how long have you known each other?" And they said, "Oh, about since 1981." So they are buds that go way, way back. And it shows the way that they gel together, which is so, so beautiful.

Then, instead in the center, my electric band, I wanted an amazing electric bass player. And to me, if you think electric, there's only Jaco Pastorius, basically, at least that is my own feel, even though, of course, you could say, what about Stanley Clarke?

Well, I did have the Stanley element, too. For Jaco, I chose Farko Dosumov. Farko has that innate ability to play the bass almost like a guitar with all sorts of embellishments, all of those harmonics that bring back memories of Jaco.

For world music, I have my own good friend, Osama Afifi. To be honest, Osama is not in his twenties; he's actually more in his fifties. But he has that slapping bass that is more Stanley Clarke-oriented. And so, ultimately, I tailored the music and the arrangement to the musicians.

LP: Oh, okay. I was going to ask you that.

Francesco: That's something I learned in my early days.

LP: And let me ask you, did you ever play around with having the different trios play the other compositions or was it the acoustic trio, those two sidemen for you played only the acoustic pieces or do you have versions of the other configurations playing all the pieces?

Francesco: Yeah. In the recording, it is what it is. We played that and only that. In live situations, the economics of it is obviously you cannot show up at a venue with three rhythm sections because they would think people would think I'm crazy, and obviously, economically, it makes no sense.

So, absolutely, when I perform, depending on who comes, sometimes I actually blend them in between. I've done gigs with Mark Ivester and Farko Dosumov.

LP: That's fun. That sounds like it would be interesting and neat.

Francesco: Which means that they all play everything in a live situation. But then, when it comes to a studio situation, I have to think about what serves the material best. In that case, I have no doubts that exactly the band playing that material is absolutely perfect.

You know, if I think, for example, the very first song is called "Preludio Flamenco." That one has a very flamenco feel, by definition, which does not really lend itself to acoustic bass. Sure, you can be very virtuoso on acoustic, but the flamenco, you almost want to hear that guitar that strums. You want that Paco de Lucia, at least in your mind. And that's when it was obvious that I needed an electric player, electric bass. Therefore, I would not have asked Clipper to play "Preludio Flamenco," even though he plays it when we are in a live situation, not on the album.

LP: What prompted you to revisit your sort of catalog of compositions?

Francesco: Ah, yes, the "Circular Motion." Yeah, as a matter of fact, I called it Circular Motion because I was saying it's the circle of my own composing life. The very last song is called "Sarava," which is a Brazilian tune that I wrote at age 21. And at that time, it was fun. It had exactly the same, but it was a little bit simple.

It didn't have any obbligato parts; it didn't have a lot of complexity. It was just AABA in the form. It had a clever finale, and it was mostly jam-packed. Have a good time. But as we age, all of the greats, and to me, one of the greats of all people is Sting. If you think about Sting, the way that he has taken some of his timeless songs, like "Roxanne" or "Fragile," etc., and then rearranged them, thanks also to amazing jazz musicians who back him up.

Chick did the same. He wrote "Spain." And yet, he wasn't happy with it, and then he did the "Spain" rearrangement that the acoustic band recorded in '91, which is completely different. And so that gave me the license to think that a song is not supposed to be static; composition can and should be revisited.

Think about Herbie, for example, his original version of, was it "Chameleon?" That changed completely. Or "Watermelon Man."

LP: Yeah, yeah. So, the recording is a snapshot. It's not the ultimate. It doesn't have to be the final say.

Francesco: Yes, that's exactly the point. And that's why nowadays I take my old songs and rather than scoff at them looking at, ah, that's juvenile work, I actually think there is something. However, the way that it was done to me 40 years ago, honestly, I'm not that person anymore. And so I take it, I preserve the feel, what it was meant to be, but then I embellish it and create all sorts of little tricks, obbligato parts.

One thing you might notice is that I have a mania, in a way, and I'm calling it a mania, to take a song and make it, turn it into a suite. What is a suite? It typically has three movements, like a sonata that has the beginning part, and then it has the middle part, which typically is a nice ballad or something. And then it resolves itself in the third movement. And so a song can turn into a 15-minute extravaganza.

If I think about my current album, that exact rendition happens in "Julia's Tango," happens in "Sarava," as I mentioned, happens in "Kurama."

LP: I love "Kurama."

Francesco: Yeah, isn't that something? Yeah. Where suddenly it just dissipates into just this piano, this kind of, "da da da da da da." (sings the melody) And then it comes back again. I like to surprise the audience. If they're listening, they think the piece is done. And yet, there's a second move. It's not good for radio, but it's great for having fun. (laughter)

LP: You talked a few times about needing the guitar sound, and that's how you chose a certain player or the, or having a bass guitar, but you seem, you so you seem to be incredibly committed to the piano trio format. Why not just get a guitar player? Is it because you want to explore the trio for this album?

Francesco: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. When I do live performances, I am very keen on changing the format almost all the time. Maybe I'm going back to my mentor, Chick. Whenever Chick Corea appears, you always wonder what he is going to do. Is he doing a piano solo? Is he doing a duet with Gary Burton? Is he going to do a trio? Is he going to do a whole symphonic thing like he even did? I love that idea of mixing things up and constantly being on my toes.

Alternatively, it's easy to have a trio or your own band, and then you take that band, and you always, always, always perform with it. There is a sense of comfort in a way. Instead, what I do is the opposite from gig to gig.

For example, this month alone, I'm going to perform a Piano Vibes Duet with the great Susan Pascal.

LP: I can't wait to see that.

Francesco: At North City Bistro. So please come.

LP: Yeah, I would love to.

Francesco: Fabulous. Yeah. She's great. Oh yeah, absolutely. That's in deference to Chick and Gary, but I'll also be doing a quartet with a saxophone coming up tomorrow night. Tonight is trio. So it really is a matter of what excites me? Duets, by the way.

I also have a duet coming up with the great John Stowell on guitar. And so that would be in Whidbey Island. So not close for the Seattle people.

LP: Do people come out on Whidbey?

Francesco: Yeah, they don't come from Seattle, but there's a local audience in a winery.

LP: Nice. That's a beautiful night.

Francesco: Oh, absolutely.

LP: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm glad to hear you say that about all the configurations because I was starting to worry that you didn't like other harmonic instruments getting in your way. (laughter)

Francesco: I do, I do. No, I do. They do get in the way. I mean, you have to be really careful. Less is more than some. Why should I not play with John Stowell, who has an incredible sound? You know, I'll be doing a gig with Tim Lerch, and that will also be a typical Joe Pass feel where the piano, guitar, and bass are, therefore, no drums in that case.

Another unusual configuration that we have coming up is going to be John Stowell, myself, and Gail Pettis singing. And we did it a year ago at the Royal Room, and we're going to do it again at this venue in Kingston called Cellar Cat. What's amazing is that there is a piano and a guitar, and then the vocalist. Obviously, you're saying, where's the bass? Where's the quartet? Why not have a full quintet kind of thing? But no, we wanted this to be intimate.

LP: That's going to be exciting for the vocalist. That's an interesting configuration for the vocalist. Am I correct? Did I see that you also have played, or do you have a date coming up with a piano duo?

Francesco: I don't have one coming up. The duo was with Bill Anschell.

LP: Bill Anschell. That's what it was. Bill.

Francesco: He is great. I mean, I must hand it to him. That was, what was it, last year? It was at Stage 7 Pianos in Kirkland. It's a piano store that has an auditorium and a gorgeous, super extra gorgeous Steinway & Sons Model D, which is, of course, the grand piano.

LP: The dream. It's the dream piano. You build the house around it. (laughter)

Francesco: And the owner is obviously, adores the piano. It's his own personal one. He'll never sell it, but he enjoys having performances. That was actually funny because I asked Bill, "Would you like to do piano duets in the style of Chick and Herbie or basically let's have some fun and we'll do original music, we'll do standards, whatever you want to do."

And he said, "Yeah, sure." I like Bill's attitude, which is, "Yeah, can do. Why not? Let's do it." In a different concert that I was doing, I happened to have two great people in front of me: John Gilbreath from Earshot and Jim Wilke from KNKX.

LP: And so there you go.

Francesco: I was very excited. And I mentioned to both of them and to Jim saying, "Oh, I have this piano duet coming, which is difficult to do. It's not usually done. Venues typically don't have two pianos, so you can only do it in very specific circumstances."

Jim looks at me and then says, "Are you going to record that?" I had no intention of doing so; I don't know. I'll probably record it with my handheld portable device or something. And so Jim says, "So would you like me to come and record it for you? And maybe I'll play it on my show."

My jaw dropped, I said, "Really?" So, long story short, he came, and he set up the whole recording the way that he knew how to do it. We had to take the lids off the pianos because, obviously, at that point, the two microphones were just perfectly perpendicular to the soundboards of the pianos. He was there the entire time; he recorded the whole thing, and then we critiqued, obviously, two sets of music.

And he said, "Man, we have too much for one show." "Oh, well, I'll just do two shows." Therefore, for two consecutive Sundays of Jazz Northwest, and it's still available online.

LP: I want to hear that. We'll link to that from the show notes. We will link to that.

Francesco: Go to KNKX, and check out Jim Wilke, Francesco Crosara, and Bill Anschell. And there it is for two consecutive Sundays. Two shows in a row.

LP: Will you put it out?

Francesco: Commercially? Never thought about that. (laughter) I don't know if Bill would want, I don't know if Jim would allow. Who knows? I mean, it is out.

LP: It is out. It is out. That's right. Well, I know what I'm going to spend the afternoon listening to, so that's great.

Francesco: We did a version of "Armando's Rumba." That was really cool.

LP: It's exciting. Does the Steinway shop here in Seattle do any live performances? I've never heard of anything there.

Francesco: They should.

LP: Yeah, any piano store should. Any piano store should. Why not?

Francesco: Yeah, but the key is do they have an auditorium? Because a store that is only a warehouse is not too good. You need to have something that has a stage area and enough room for chairs.

LP: Apropos of nothing, but do you know if the Steinway store here has a piano vault in the basement? I've always heard that Steinway stores near concert halls have piano vaults in the basement. So, when a Lang Lang or someone comes through, they can see pianos that everybody else can't see and can have them brought over to the concert hall.

Francesco: That's probably...

LP: I love the story. I want it to be true. And in fact, I don't care if it's not true. (laughter)

Francesco: One thing I can tell you is that Chick, who was, of course, endorsed by Yamaha, had a contract whereby Yamaha would provide a nine-footer. It will be available no matter what the house piano is. It would be replaced by a Yamaha. And then he would have the tuner at the beginning, right before, obviously. And during intermission, the tuner would come back.

LP: Wow.

Francesco: During intermission! I mean, that is just... really?

LP: I mean, if you could, why not? You know, if you could demand that, why not? Why wouldn't you? (laughter)

Francesco: And he had Bernie Kirsh, his loyal recording engineer, always record. He would come in at the front of house and basically record because you never know. So imagine if all of the recordings that Chick ever did were to be released. You would have so many more Grammy Awards coming up posthumously.

LP: Even if out of any given night there were ten minutes of magic or a passage, you know there were moments of every night that are worth hearing. That's amazing.

Before I let you go, will you tell me a little bit about the work that goes on at the Music Discovery Center?

Francesco: Oh, yes. Thank you. Okay. Music Discovery Center, or MDC, is a nonprofit organization based in the West Sound. For listeners who are not used to Seattle, we're talking about across the sound, across the water. And that encompasses the Kitsap Peninsula and a little bit of Bainbridge Island as well.

And so, this organization I'm very proud to be part of is comprised of three different things. There is the education component. So we want to be able to provide music instruction to students, especially to those who can afford it the least. And therefore we have done instrument drives, instrument donations, and also pairing students with teachers, with tutors, and also aligning with the schools so that then they can help us identify those students who are the most needy to have an instrument and then as a result be able to continue and then grow.

That's one pillar. The other pillar is community outreach. With that one, we want to develop more music opportunities in the West Sound because the Seattle area is well served. Of course, there are plenty of great music associations, but in the West Sound, in Bremerton, Silverdale, and basically that side, there's not an equivalent amount of opportunities.

We are now getting involved in putting together concerts. A big one coming up will be Make Music Day on June 21st. That's an international event that happens all over the world on that day. It's already the fifth year of it, but this year, we'll be doing it in a park with eight hours of music.

LP: Oh, wonderful.

Francesco: And the beauty of that is amateur musicians and some pros, but it's mostly the amateurs. So, it gives the opportunity to fledgling students and musicians who want to be on stage and play. So it will be free to the audience, free for everyone, and provide the opportunity to perform, which obviously is a big thing.

And one interesting aspect, not many people know that the great Quincy Jones spent time in Bremerton as a kid.

LP: Yeah.

Francesco: And supposedly, the legend goes that that is where as a kid, he touched the first piano in a room where he and his buddies had broken into or were not supposed to be, but he touched the piano, and he said, "That's when I realized that this would be my path and I would leave youth of ill repute," or whatever.

Right now, Bremerton is in the middle of construction for what's going to be called Quincy Square downtown. Quincy Square will be the hub of the Music Discovery Center. And Quincy has given his name in terms of his blessings. And maybe someday he'll come and show up as a master of ceremonies. That would be sweet.

LP: That's beautiful.

Francesco: That's why the MDC is basically bringing music opportunities to the side that are less served by our community.

LP: I've come to hold the belief, more so in the last several months, that all of these things around art and music that you, the activities you're doing with MDC, the activities even as an artist, and sitting here and having conversations like this, I believe these are important and they're important to support a democratic culture like these communities are without art, where goes the artist where that's where the society goes.

I think it's very important to have these platforms and to develop opportunities for young people to play and for the audience to know this music exists. The audience needs to know just as much as the players need opportunities.

Francesco: No, that's so true. Absolutely. Because music and art will develop, like you're saying, better human beings. It's not about, oh, will I make a career? What's more, am I going to embody something that makes me feel better about myself? There is a healing aspect to music.

As a matter of fact, if you were to ask me, what is the one thing that I want my album to create in the listener? To me, it is basically a sense of joy and a sense of healing. If you're happy, you listen to the album, and it lifts you up. If you're sad, it just gives you a sense that life is good, basically. I wanted to really have an uplifting album, not something depressing or something, not in my music, at least for now.

LP: Yeah. What's next? Do you have the next set of compositions in mind? Are they done? Are they in here?

Francesco: I have an obsession with rearranging my music, which is crazy. And so some of the songs that are in the album, I'm already rearranging them to make them even richer. Of course, at some point, I got to stop doing that because it's almost compulsive. I have an obsession there, but yeah, there is new material coming up in my head because, ultimately, I need to be able to continue evolving.

I'd also like to do a few more performances in Europe, in my old stomping grounds, so I can take this opportunity to do more there like I do here.

LP: Well, thank you for spending time in my home; it was great to have you, and thank you so much. I'm so glad.

Francesco: This is old school, as we were saying at the beginning. The opportunity to sit face to face like it used to be, and I'm playing to you that versus the Zoom way that is effective and efficient. And so impersonal.

LP: Yeah. Well, thank you.

Francesco: Thank you so much.