Glen Lubbert: Harnessing sleep for success

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Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.

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I'm Judy Oskam and I love interviewing people who inspire, educate and motivate.

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On this episode, I'm sharing my conversation with Glen Lubbert.

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Sleep isn't everything, but it impacts everything.

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Glen is the founder of Stamina Lab.

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He is a data-driven sleep and health coach and you'll hear why he followed that path.

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He's a technology entrepreneur, a certified sleep and behavior design expert, and he's trained in mindfulness nervous system management, and he uses tiny habits and thrive global methodologies.

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I think when you hear our conversation, you'll understand that innovation is part of his DNA.

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You know what's interesting?

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I was just here in South by Southwest is happening right now to record this, and one of the speakers mentioned something that really resonated with me, which is entrepreneurship is a trauma response and I thought and I found that really fascinating and I went back and I started reading more about that.

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You know, it's some type of some point in your childhood that this childhood is traumatic.

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But in general, but you know some key things, what happened that I think helped?

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You know key things.

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What happened that I think helped?

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You know it builds resilience, it builds creativity, um, it brings self-reliance.

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It is, uh lawful risk tolerance.

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Um, because of this response and I was like, oh, that's a unique way of uh of doing, thinking about it, um, that is a way to productively, um work through that.

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Uh, trauma and being an entrepreneur, I really believe is the ultimate self-improvement program because you're out there all the time on the edge on your own, because you're out there all the time, on the edge, on your own, on your own, hopefully, you can be collaborating with some fantastic people and, yes, you're on your own and that it is something that forces constant reflection, adjustment, growth, and so I think that's probably why I have been attracted to being an entrepreneur and continue to be.

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Well, if you use that sort of descriptor, what was the trauma that led you to that?

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And I ask that because I grew up with a father who was an entrepreneur and my brother is an entrepreneur and I went the other way because I wanted a little more security and I wanted I saw what, what they were going through and I wanted a career and I started in television.

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So I was in media at first and then I thought I want to get at the university where I can be what I call an entrepreneur and I could be entrepreneurial, but inside a structure.

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So that was sort of my deal.

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But I grew up seeing my dad do a lot of risk, a lot of reward, sometimes not so rewarding.

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But what was it with you?

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What was it?

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A family?

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There was definitely um.

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There's as a point where I, my family, moved from way before I started high school, moved from a really amazing urban uh or not.

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So I mean like um, mid-urban, like uh, that just a great beautiful place.

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That was uh fantastic for growing up, lots of kids around, and we just had a really great uh time up until that point.

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And then we we, for family um reasons meaning someone had a past, like my grandparents, and we had had to go help support them we moved from that place to a much more rural area, and so I was just starting high school in an area I didn't know anybody, and so I think that I always go back to that as like oh, this is the point where I'm like, oh, I, I have to, I want to be in control of, um, the direction of life.

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I have to uh you have to be the driver.

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You have to drive that because rather than things happening to you.

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no, it's, it's that, that's a narrative that, uh, you know that that propelled me and I've, you know, come to recognize that that actually was one as a great gift because of all the things that I've done with so, it with.

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So it's not a point where I look back as a negative point of view, but you process it, you process it, and I think that is one of the key areas.

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Oh sure, and I have a good friend who's an entrepreneur and she's a designer and a chair designer, and she would much rather work those 80 plus hours for herself than for somebody else.

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So I think there's something.

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It's not that you have your own business and it's easy and you can do whatever you want.

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You're you're solely responsible for everything.

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So, I think that's fantastic.

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And then what?

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What led you up to creating Stamina Lab?

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Yeah.

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So I had a really great success early on in this, so I was able to start several companies and what happened was through that process, you know, and I came to a point where I was getting burned out.

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And one of the things I advise a lot of young entrepreneurs on is the fact that you aren't your company.

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You have multitudes, you're much larger than your company, but when you're 25 years old and you're putting everything you can into this, you are the company, but you have to play that jujitsu act of being, give it your everything and being at everything and, at the same time, be able to uh have identity beyond that or above that.

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And so I got to that point where I was burned out.

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I was traveling a lot back and forth across the coast we have offices on both coasts and constantly changing my uh time, so then changing my sleep, and then it got to a point where I couldn't sleep, for I mean, I was able to rest but not really get the deep REM sleep I needed, deep end REM sleep I needed.

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So there was a month where I was like that and I could feel it just like dragging on my brain, and I went to my management team and said listen, I haven't been sleeping and it's affecting my ability to make decisions.

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I need some help, not in them helping me with my challenge, but for them to be more on top of the things for the company.

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And that's when I put sleep at the center of my life and said, ok, now we have to build everything around being able to maintain good, positive circadian health.

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So therefore, like I said, it's not it's not everything, but it impacts everything.

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So it's in a habit.

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From a way it's a keystone habit, and so it's one habit that, if you do that, it has a ripple effect to every part of your life.

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And so we're always looking for those keystone habits where we can put those in a place while everything else becomes easier.

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And then that was my journey to get to to get to that place where I put sleep at the center of my life, but then also to know if I'm going to start another company.

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I really want to be really good at being able to put these big positive behaviors into my world, and so that also got.

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Where I got to.

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Tiny Habits is we're both Tiny Habits coaches.

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Right and kind of explain kind of how Tiny Habits helps you with this and and how you use that within stamina lab.

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Yeah, so we have, so I use it all the time.

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I mean it's it's, it's built, baked into some of the things I do and, and you know, make doing that small tiny habit, no matter what uh, that you'll do it, no matter how tired you are or how, um, how much other things are going on.

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You know you can have do more than what you want you're going to do.

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And so, for example, my morning I have a morning movement routine and that, so that is starts with um, some, some uh squats, and just do two squats is the tiny habit.

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Um, after I, after I get out of the shower, and so then it goes on to a whole bunch of movement activities.

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But when I'm pressed for time or I'm tired, I said south by south is going, south by southwest is going on this week here in austin, so there's so many things happening all day into the evening and so the the this morning I was like, okay, I, I don't have time and I'm just going to be able to just do the two squats instead of the whole four minute more minute routine, and that's uh satisfying um, and that still gets my day started off on the right foot to be able to execute and prepare.

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So that's just one example of how I use tiny habits and how we use it in Stamina.

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Lab is all over the place.

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So we have a two-week bootcamp program that people go through to work on their sleep.

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You know we're not fixing everything, but they're moving in the right direction and we can see, through the wearable data, noticeable improvements in lowering their heart rate, which is a sign of recovery, and increasing their heart rate variability, which is a direct sign of the health of their vagus nerve and their nervous system, which is a direct sign of the health of their vagus nerve and their nervous system, which is also a sign of recovery.

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And nearly everyone who goes through the program that participates.

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It's just an easy two weeks and when we teach tiny habits and they pick one or two tiny habits to work on for their sleep and sort of see, oh wow, this has a fantastic impact.

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Well, what's the biggest challenge that people come to you with?

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They just say I'm burned out or I just can't sleep, and then how do you take that and drill down into really giving them some actionable steps or habits, if you will?

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Yeah, the biggest thing is I'm having trouble falling asleep at night, or I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't go back to sleep.

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So those are the two main challenges that people have, and really what they're looking for is to have more energy, to be able to have more focus, just to be able to enjoy the day.

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Sleep impacts everything you know, from your long-term health to your mental health today, your mood, your enjoyment of life, and so really what we drill down to is asking what difference will having that improving your sleep make?

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What difference will those you know?

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Obviously they will have more energy and focus, but what difference will that energy and focus have for you?

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And I'll be able to, you know, get all the things at work I want to have done, be able to have the energy to be with my family, my loved ones, my friends, um, be able to be present for them and and be a model for the people around me.

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So I think that's really really drilling down to what difference is going to make, and just to continue to ask what else, what else, what else?

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or what difference is going to make, just to really get, make it just a full picture with all their, all their senses and and from there then saying all right, well then, let's pick.

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Let's pick a workout, tiny habit that can improve your sleep and, as we know, you know it's starting with something that they're going to enjoy.

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Let's pick something that you enjoy doing and that gets you moving into the belief that you can improve your sleep.

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Give us an example of a sleep-related enjoyable habit.

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Well, one of the ones I really like to suggest a lot of times is to put your phone to bed before you go to sleep, ideally an hour or two hours.

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So we set an alarm to wake up in the morning.

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So setting an alarm in the evening that says, hey, this is time for my phone to go to bed, and put the phone to bed, you can tuck it in the bed and leave the whole thing.

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Good night phone.

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And this has a really big impact because it reduces the amount of blue light you're going to see and blue light is telling your circadian clock hey, it's still daylight, don't start producing melatonin.

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That helps me fall asleep.

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And it also takes away any alerts that are coming in which could release cortisol again to keep you alert and awake.

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And and it's signals to your body to start the wind down process.

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And ideally, if you can take away any of the electronics at this at this point, whatever it is for you in the evening.

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And I also hear often here like, oh well, once I put my phone away and turn off my TV, what is there to do?

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And so then it's like oh well, maybe then I'll do some light reading or stretching because there's not much else to do.

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And that guy says, well, I guess I'll go to bed.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And then waking up also is an issue too right For some people if they don't sleep all night.

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I know it has been for me, so yeah, so our coaches I have a team of coaches that do the deep coaching and the key part of it is using cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and that's managing, including managing your nervous system, and working on behavioral change, as we just talked about, including tiny habits, and so one of the things that happens we have a three month program to help improve your sleep, and one of the things that happens about two to three weeks into the program is it gets worse and then it gets better, because one of the things you want to really work on is waking you up at the same time every day.

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And so getting up, and even if you're tired, even if you didn't go to bed until 3 am and you need to get up at 7 o'clock 3 am, and you, you need to get up um at seven o'clock yeah you're, you're going to be tired, that, but you're going to then you're going to start to feel tired and go to sleep earlier because you don't want to get into bed until you do feel sleepy.

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So at the beginning, when we're adjusting your circadian clock, you're not going to feel, you're still not going to feel sleepy in the evening because you haven't had that uhness, the sleep pressure happening yet.

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And so you're like, okay, I'm still staying up, still staying up later, and then slowly you can see how, by waking up at the same time, you start building that sleep pressure earlier and earlier.

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It doesn't matter um, what matters is, when you wake up in the morning is getting sunlight as early as you can, and outdoor sunlight, uh, specifically because it is magnitudes more um impactful for setting that circadian clock, and when that master clock, when it sees that sunlight, it says okay, in 14 to 16 hours we're going to start producing melatonin to allow the body to start falling asleep, and that 14 to 16 hours can start any time when you finally get outside.

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So if you don't get outside till 11 am, it's 14 to 16 hours later.

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So that's where we start.

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With what time do you want to wake up in the morning?

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Okay, I want to get up this time.

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Okay.

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So then this starts the whole thing up.

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When you wake up, when you go outside, when you eat, when you exercise all these, every cell in our body it has its own little clock, but they're all based on that master clock, and so by by working on sleep, you're really working on a person's whole day.

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I love that and and I've read, it's 10 minutes of sunlight in the morning.

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Is that correct or do you know I?

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With Tiny Habits, I would say get outside for a minute, you know, just to get out, yeah, just to get out.

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And, and you know, when you get outside for a minute, just like any other tiny habit, you're like oh well, it's nice out here, well, maybe I can pair it with drinking my tea, or, depending on your weather, you might only be able to get out for a minute, but you're getting that minute and it's something that sets that clock to start.

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Or if you have a pet, that's another great reason to get outside in the morning.

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Actually, go out with the pet when it goes outside.

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Sure, I love that.

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Well, how has it worked for you now that you've started a company around a real need, which was one of your needs and challenges?

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How are you doing with with sleep, I have to ask.

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So I think that's a great point to make.

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Is that, uh and this includes all the coaches on our team say the same thing?

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Is that even sleep coaches or sleep experts have trouble sleeping occasionally because life happens, stress happens and you know, our nervous systems get, uh, get challenged and and put into that sympathetic fight or flight state and sometimes it's really a in a state that takes a lot to bring it down.

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If you know, if you are still managing it and you're still doing the same things, it's, it's, it's a.

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It's a.

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I don't want to say wellbeing is a process, it's not a state you get to and so you have to get a practice.

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You have to do the practice constantly and and even even when you know all the tools and you have great tools in your toolkit, you still have to do the practice.

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Now I would say that I'm much better at getting back to sleep or falling asleep when I wake up and um, and recognizing, when I'm not falling asleep right away, to get back out of bed and wait until I'm sleepy, um, to get into bed.

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So if it takes an hour or two or longer and I'm not not getting to bed when I normally want to, and I'll know that, hey, I'm going to be sleepy the next day, but not feeling anxious about it.

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And I think that's really where it comes in is that people start to get in this program where they feel anxious about hey, I'm in bed, but if I'm not falling asleep, I'm not going to be able to perform my best in the morning, and therefore it perpetuates and you can't fall asleep.

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And meanwhile now your body's associating with being anxious with being in bed and therefore then, as it leads up to it, you start thinking oh, I'm going to go to bed, will I be able to fall asleep?

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And this is how people get into the challenge that we help, as Samuel and I we help to solve.

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Well, yeah, and you guys are using science to do that.

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It's all science-backed information that helps them understand why, and they're not beating themselves up all the time about that.

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so yeah, and I think, and I think that it's why it's like to say that, hey, even sleep experts have trouble sleeping sometimes they don't beat yourself up.

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be kind to yourself.

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It's a key part of behavior.

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Design is to be kind to yourself and know that, even if you're not, even if you're not going to get a full night's sleep, that you want to have and maybe have something important to do the next day.

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I always like to equate it with athletes or musicians or somebody who has a performance the next day.

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And I'm a former Division One athlete and I still participate in races now and the night before a race, I don't sleep well.

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None of my running friends sleep well the night before the race.

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But yeah, we perform really well and get our PRs, and so what's with that?

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Well, that's what I think to remember.

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That lesson is that, yeah, it's okay, you'll still be able to perform really well.

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Don't get anxious about it.

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You'll be part of the top performer, just like top performing athletes, and the next day you'll feel tired and you'll go to sleep earlier.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And I think it helps to give people permission to just relax about it or let them make a change here or there.

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And that's what I love about Tiny Habits is, if one way isn't working, you just iterate and go the other, and that's sort of right along the same path that you've done as an entrepreneur.

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Yeah, I think having an experimenter's mindset and that's where which were stamina, lab uh, comes from.

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We obviously having this energy and longevity for the stamina, but knowing it's a lab, you're a lab and you are you.

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You are the lab and you are your own experiment.

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Um, and we also like to say you are your own best coach.

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Yeah.

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And so that that that's kind of sums up the philosophy of how to approach uh both, uh sleep challenges, but also uh life in general, entrepreneurship, all exactly, exactly well, you know I I'm a gallup strengths coach and I always like to ask people what they think their, their top strength is.

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And as an entrepreneur, I know you have.

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I can think of a couple right now.

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But what?

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What do you think is the?

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is your top strength that helps you keep going yeah, I say, I would say lots of times I say creativity, innovation and creativity is a key in there and that's being curious and being open-minded, having that growth mindset, having a stress is enhancing mindset.

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So that way, when stress comes, it comes to you, it actually can help you grow.

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And looking at it from that perspective, I know whenever I'm stuck and I feel like I'm constricted because I'm like, oh, this is the path that I have planned to take, but as soon as I do a protocol, go for a walk, take some breaths to open up physically, open up your brain and your body, and to open up to possibilities and creativity.

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I love that and look ahead to the future of Stamina Lab.

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Where do you see Stamina Lab in a couple of years?

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Where do you see you in a couple of years?

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Are you going to be doing a spinoff company from this one, or what's next for you?

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Well, we're just getting really just getting started here with Stamina Lab, and my hope is to be able to have many, many sleep coaches and health coaches within our organization helping and health coaches within our organization helping thousands of people improve their behavior to have, like I said, to be able to do, have more energy, have more focus, have more resilience, to be able to do more things that they care about for as long as they can.

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I love that.

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I love that.

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Glen, thanks so much for joining me today.

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I've loved learning more about Stamina Lab and we'll put some things in the show notes for everybody.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, Judy, thank you for having me.

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Of course.

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Well, thank you for listening to Stories of Change and Creativity.

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I'll put some information about Glen and Stamina Lab and Tiny Habits in the show notes.

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Remember if you've got a story to share or know someone who does reach out to me at judyoskam.

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com and please leave a review if you can.

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I appreciate it.

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Thanks for listening.