SNW "Ad Astra per Aspera" Review w/ The Legal Geeks

Welcome to another edition of Strange New Pod. This is the outline.
It's a thick boy.
It might as well be a legal document.

I'm your fleet admiral and host Julian Brown and Court.
Yes, is indeed in session.
I'm joined by the best bridge crew this side of a Vulcan outburst.
We have vice admiral Eric who did make sure there was a live stream of this trial. And yes, that is a dig at Trump.
Sorry, not sorry.
Commander Hawk is here ready with that law and order knowledge.
Bum bum bum bum.
I have the sound effect somewhere on here but it's, it's there.
Capture giraffe is here ready to gush over.
Uh But did I get her name?
Right.
Giraffe.
Did I fuck it out?
Yes, I got it right.
Oh, I'm happy I got it right by the way.
As are we all, she was fucking amazing in this episode.
Oh, wait, we can't say fuck.
Oh, fuck too much, right?

What are you doing?
Are you saying?
I mean I say no.
Um no, we've been saying fuck a lot for the past three years.
So I don't know where people have been but that's, that's what we do on this show. Um Fuck.

Yeah. Fuck. Yeah.

And finally Lieutenant Commander MC is here who was with me in Messenger weeks ago, gushing over the freaking gorgeous dress uniforms in this episode, I know you're already thinking about making one.

Yeah, I am.
But also, I mean, near dresses, I mean, just say it like this episode had it not going on.

It is it does, it is welcome back and welcome a board guys joining us on our view screen tonight are our very good friends.

The good folks from the legal geeks, Josh Gilliland and Nari Ely guys. Welcome back.
We couldn't dream of doing this episode without you.
It had to be done.

How have you guys been?

We've been, well, we've been busy and I'm so glad to be back for this episode in particular.

I it's like we do, I listen.

So it's like I feel like I haven't left but, you know, it's good to actually catch up and I mean, and I interact, I saw her at Wonder.

So yeah, we're gonna see at San Diego Comic Con.

Uh Josh, I like, I like how you went very like when I first asked you how you guys have been, you went very romy and like, we've been good.

We've been busy, we've been busy and no, I was like, let's go. This is how it's done.
I love it, Dave.
And the chat is already pumped.

Can't say what a high, can I say what a high I am on after this week's episode.

It was so good.

Um Josh Nari, it's so awesome to have you guys back.

Uh, it's been a bit though the last time you had, we had you guys on, I think it was August of last year.

Oh, no, no, it was even before that it was July, we were getting ready for Carol's trial and we were guessing about a year, a little under a year, what una trial was going to be like?

So um for the, for the folks who may not been here for the episode that you guys guested on last time, what are the legal geeks all about?

So, we started in July 2012, founded by Jessica Meters and myself and we were a blog and podcast where we discussed legal issues from pop culture.

So that's the medium to teach and we do comic-con.

We do, I was just at Nerd Night, San Francisco on Tuesday where I discussed Star Trek Law and had a rip Roy and good time.

Yes, that audio is available on our podcast channels. If you look up the legal geeks, you can see us there.

The legal geeks dot com has all kinds of posts where we jump into complex issues like assumption of risk for wearing a red shirt or is the Horta an endangered species.

Those are the hard hitting questions that we get into and it's, well, this is gonna surprise you.

A lot of people who read comic books or watched Star Trek as a kid grew up and became lawyers.

Many are called your honor.

So it's just a funny thing that happens that people who like to read and think and you know, explore complex issues, do become lawyers and judges can, can I say that I was at a, I was at an event in San Diego for the M UN, you know, and it takes the judge like I think the keynote speaker is one of the legal kids.

And I was like, because I, I was looking, I was like, I know that voice.

I know that person like from where and I was looking, you know, word work mood, you know, I was like, what do you know that person?

So yeah, everywhere, they're everywhere.

So that, that legal geek you referred to was Circuit judge John Owens of the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals by President Obama.

Yeah.

Brilliant jurist loves Star Trek and can speak at length uh about deep Trek issues.

We did a podcast with him for the 40th anniversary of Wrath of Khan.

Where, where, you know, because again, he he he's just a little older than me and we grew up in the same area.

So I, I honestly believe we probably were at the same place at the same time and much younger versions of ourselves.

And it's neat to go do, uh, cons with him and just, you know, again being a lawyer, it's nice reading his opinions.

It's like, good job.

Good, good.

Yeah.

I mean, he, I, I definitely got some, like, street cred when I was like, I know him, everyone, everyone was like, you know him.

I was like, yeah, but from gee stuff he's, he's a very neat man.

He's a very neat man and his family is awesome.

So his, uh you know, his wife and kids go to the Comic Con with them and it, they're awesome.

Nice, nice.

Uh Nari, we were talking off mic, I, we're gonna get into a lot of law stuff tonight and I know with the introduction that you guys, I think need to get a bit of a disclaimer off your chest very quickly.

So everybody knows. Absolutely.

Uh So while Josh and I are both practicing lawyers, nothing we say on this podcast should be construed as legal advice.

If you are being court martialed for violating Starfleet regulations, you should seek your own lawyer.

Uh And additionally, no, nothing that we say reflects the views of our employer. There are personal, individual views and should be considered as nothing else. There it is.
So we need to record it for us.

We do, we do Julian.
Can we say that every beginning of the podcast?

Because you know what if we do, we're just going to get more hate mail about it like people are equal opportunity.

Mean giraffe.
So wait, who calls you equal opportunity?
Mean giraffe?
Is it in the chest?
And I'm like, I'm not technically mean because I mean all the time.

So you're just normal me, but actually you're not mean you're French. I, I will say, are you kidding me?

Um, patrons, speaking of going late, we hope you understand with guests, we are gonna move right along with some very brief news and then get this thing going know that we appreciate and love all of you who read your names next week unless we have guests, which we might so sorry, we love you.

Um You guys rock.

Speaking of you, our patrons are beautiful, amazing patron collective.

We are going to do our table read.

Yes.

Finally it's happening.

I swear, I promise it is.

Wow, it's been a long road.

Um sometime in the next 10 days, that's gonna happen.

We're locking down a date, but I will do a live uh sometime when I'm in San Diego.

I'm leaving on Saturday on Insta uh to draw which characters we're all going to be playing in.

Who wants to read?
What episode we're doing?
Giraffe?
I know.
I, I think it's giraffe.
All words is a stage so exciting.
Cannot wait for that.
We also may have a very, very, very special guest confirming that for that one.

So stay tuned.

Um Joining us for that table read will be one of our amazing patron collective members at our 10 forward level.

And that is member Sean Temper.

We drew you today.

You were drawn as our guest table read.

Don't want to be for you.

Well, no, if you don't want it, I still have the names on the wheel.

So please message me and I will draw a new name.

We know some people aren't comfortable doing video.

So message me and I will draw a new name but you're a winner and you'll get to do this awesome table read with us.

So um yeah, by the way, Josh, I love your shirt.
Thank you.
You can't have it, but I can tell you where to get one for yourself.
Tell me and that is, it's heroes and villains because they make great products.

I own multiple shirts and socks from them and this is the uh uh art for the enterprise blowing up and Search for Spock, which was I saw on a drive in long ago and I went home, very depressed, very depressed going, they blew up the enterprise because it was like watching hope die and getting.

But the key message of how do you define victory? And you know, Bones is comment to Kirk.

You did what you had to do, turn death into a fighting chance for life because that's the key part.

You know, Kirk lost everything and still did the right thing. So, you know, I got the shirt, it's one of my favorites.

It's really good.

I too, tonight am wearing a brand new Space do Heroes and Villa shirt.

They got this strange new worlds license uh from Star Trek and Paramount.

So, clap, clap, clap for them.

Um We are not sponsored by them.

The reason we're bringing this up is because we'd like to be.

So um if, if you'd like too, yeah, legal gigs too.

You have two people, 22 podcasts who would like sponsorships.

Um We have good listenership.

So if you would like to see them, sponsor us, send them a message, you never know what could happen.

We sent them some messages.
Hopefully we can make something happen.
Um Yeah, we want to be sponsored by them.
They have really shirts but they do need women cuts t-shirts. That's very true.
They don't have enough women's cut t-shirts.
I have all this money and I'm just trying to find some women. Cut Star Trek t-shirts.
I have so much money that I don't know what to do with.
Oh, no, no, you're not helping the image of lawyers.
So I, I know you're corporate counsel now.

But uh, no, I, I own marvel stuff from them, uh Star Wars stuff from them, Star Trek stuff from them.

And I've, I've done lots of Christmas and birthday gifts from them too.

I like, you know, they have these, like these, uh, makeup, um, purses or whatever.

I have them like Jedi and like make a Star Trek one hit so fast.

I bought the links for Julian and Josh's shirt in the jet below.

So you can click on it and just go in not sponsored links maybe one day, maybe one day backpack from them too.

So, yeah.

So and a mandal in one like they make great stuff.

So the amount of free advertising that they just got, I know.

Right.

If you buy anything because of the podcast, please put it, put it in the notes, put it in the notes.

Strange New pod told you about them so we can actually then maybe get a discount for them to get to show you all the things that would be awesome.

Um Enough, enough of free advertising.

Um That's gonna do it for news this week.

We'll have more next week, we really got to dive into this one.

Let's do that.

Our format is going to be a bit different this week.

Um So our amazing guests have a lot to shine because they are the experts on this and we're not.

Um So we are gonna talk about this one. It is our review of at Astra Per Parra.
Uh And our deep dive into that.

Uh Our order tonight is gonna go, Josh and Ari whoever decides they want to go first or whatever's in the notes, followed by Hawk Draff, Eric and myself.

Let's go right from the beginning.

Yes, I am also here.

It wouldn't be a show.

If I didn't skip one of you, let me redo that Hawk draft MC Eric and then followed by myself.

Thank you MC.
Let's start with the offer, right?

The episode begins with Captain Captain Patel making una an offer uh plead guilty to offering fraudulent enlistment data and withholding her genetic modifications and accept dishonorable dismissal.

No jail time. No exile.

Uh una could still live as a Federation citizen Starfleet would seal her records and look the other way.

Uh Nari and Josh, this is pretty standard right to offer a deal before the proceedings.

They want to avoid a trial.

Um And then for you guys, after they go, what are your thoughts on uh this brief scene?

And una being like, dude, you're supposed to be my, you know, defending me, let's sidebar this conversation.

But Josh Nari, what about what, what happened with this offer here?

So they, they crap on public defenders and that is grossly offensive.

11 of our legal geeks who's a public defender in Portland texted me after watching this with like just enraged in three minutes into the episode because they're the part of the guardians of civil uh civil society going through, uh you know, getting to Gideon and Miranda and all of the civil rights cases that gave us right to trial and protected people from the state and getting arrested just to show this feckless, you know, ineffective public defender and, and una making the comment.

Well, he works for you first up.

No, like, das and public defenders don't hang out. They're not playing racquetball together.
And uh it just again, I was very frustrated.
Yeah.

Yeah, if I could add to that.

So, uh just like, like a little like, yes, like public defenders are funded by the government.

That's why they're public.

And so our prosecutors are also funded by the government but that they have totally different organizations, Josh is right.

They also usually don't hang out.

Um And I will say, like, obviously, like publicly, there are going to be some not great public defenders out there.

But uh all of the ones that I've met and certainly majority of them are very talented and hard working and usually overworked, dramatically, overworked lawyers who handle like literally hundreds of cases at a time.

Um And it's important like our system, this is like super basic, but like our system of justice is adversarial.

Uh you have one side arguing, you have the other side arguing and a jury or a judge decides which, which one wins.

And that only works if you have an adversary on each side.

And so the reason like public defenders are absolutely critical if uh when it comes to access to justice, and if any thing, like, if you do think that public defenders sometimes drop the ball, it's because we probably should fund them more well.

And that's what I wanted to follow up with you guys on, right?

Like is, is that maybe the reason that this episode shit on them a little bit because are they trying to show that even in Starfleet in this perfect utopia, like public defenders even there aren't like being, I guess there's no money but like, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute just to add to your question.

Like is Starfleet also, right?

Yeah.
So then the last bit is that if this isn't really, this is like this is a military legal proceeding. So in these situations, we actually have a legal gate who's former jag.
Um the military provides you with a defense attorney who is also jag.

And so that was also maybe what the comment about, you know, you work for what you work for, for them or for her was getting at was that, you know, jag lawyers serve as both defense and prosecution, not at the same time, but they do often do both.

Um The interesting thing about this though is that typically this actually has resulted in a very defendant friendly uh justice system in the military, contrasted with like often the one of the principal failings of our civilian justice system is how defendant unfriendly it can be.

Um This does sometimes get the lead to some issues.

Like we've had a lot of reforms around this because of being defendant friendly in the context of like harassment or assault allegations.

But I just want to note that that's not necessarily a problem.

It's, it's, it would be wildly against military regulation if he were, if she were literally his boss, like in the same chain of command, that would be a problem.

But if, what she's referring to is that you both work for Star Fleet, that's, that's usually what happens.

There are enough horror stories of public defenders in Texas falling asleep and innocent people being convicted and then executed because that's how Texas rolls.

But that's one state out of 50.
And that's not how all of us roll here.

So, you know, like California counties again, there's what, 58 counties in California, it's, there's a lot, we're a giant state and I could be wrong because shifting demographics.

So forgive me.

But the point is, it's like Santa Clara County, those, those public defenders are making like 1 60 a year, they're working their tails off to ensure that the state is doing their job and prosecuting anyone and having friends who've been, you know, uh public defenders in Sacramento County and Santa Clara County, they take their job seriously.

They work hard and you know, the last couple of governors have made sure that public defenders are people getting elevated to be judges.

So I just, I don't like the idea that public defenders are getting knocked on, uh because they are damn good at their job.

I do like the charitable interpretation here though, which is that maybe trying to highlight that, you know, the Federation is not perfect, not even by the time of the end of the most recent series is um and this is like 100 years before some of those.

Uh So, yeah, I like the interpretation that it's trying to highlight that even in this uh future, uh they still need a little more money for the defender's office.

No money, there's no money in the federation there, More resources, assign more people.

Yeah, there's only so many hours in the day to do stuff.

So it's like I, I wanted to take up the violin and it's like, oh, that's cute.

Why don't you think about representing people?

So, anyway, just a lot of, a lot of high blood pressure over that.

No, that's fair.

That's absolutely fair.

Um, guys, what were your thoughts on, on this moment and, and, you know, kind of being, you know, cross with her, her counsel.

Uh, what was our order?

It's a Hawk draft MC Eric me.

Yeah, I don't necessarily think it was a knock at public defenders in general that, um, I think it was more, uh, kind of a foreshadowing that there was more at stake in this trial than, you know, anybody was willing to admit that Starfleet had, you know, a lot of interest in making it go away and would have assigned her a jag officer who is maybe a little inexperienced and more prone to a, a plea deal.

And that just to encourage her to sweep, you know, help them to sweep it under the rug, you know, all in all.

It was still a great scene, right?

Um, that there was that line that Patel offered to, to una on that and we thank you for your service, which, you know, comes off very pat and, you know, condescending, you know, especially if you're talking to enlisted personnel or veterans and that, and you're the one deciding if they get health care or, yeah, I was surprised also at the guy, uh, being like, and like her, her saying that it was, uh, working for the, for them.

I was like, that's weird.

Like, how does that work even, you know, um, because you'd expect I was expecting to want to have a, like, sure a fast trial but something that is like cheap shape.

So like nothing comes back to, you know, bite them in the ass basically. So, like something like this would be like a bit weird.

But like I got it like it was too, I said it right away that it was like, so she needed another, uh, a lawyer, you know, that was setting up the, oh, I need to find you somebody better and yeah, maybe it was not very elegant.

Uh, it was, it was a bit clumsy but I bought it.
I was like, sure that dude, he's bad.
I don't know, he doesn't know what he's doing so.

Yeah, but it was definitely, I like the fact that it was set up, it set up what was going on very fast because, you know, in like five minutes we were into the story and we were looking for the new lawyer and so on.

So it was efficient.

But sure.

Uh first of all, I'm just gonna say that, uh Davy has thrown out a challenge.

Davey from Trek expert quiz would like the legal geeks to come on and do a Trek law quiz.

So that one's been thrown out for you guys.
It is like they're family, you guys should, you guys should do it.

It would be awesome, but it was on uh this scene felt very standard to me for, you know, somebody who's watched a lot of law and order that, you know, the, the the deal gets, that gets put out and of course gets thrown out.

It's, it's kind of a necessity to put in there.

Um I did not really catch the whole um problem with the defender thing because it's something that I'm honestly used to seeing on, you know, on the television shows.

Um I'm going to bring this up now because honestly, i it involves stuff that happens later in the episode, but there's just so much to unpack in those later scenes that it's easier to bring up.

Now, the biggest flaw I have with this episode is that una who is somebody who seems to always be in control of things, put herself magnificently out of control considering we find out that she is the one who turned herself in.

Um I, the fact that she didn't, like, set anything up beforehand, um knowing that they were going to come after her, uh I feel like that was a misstep on her part.

Um And I mean, maybe like she turned herself in, in the heat of the moment, like, for some reason, like she was feeling away.

Um, I think I won, I wonder if she did that because she believed in Starfleet so much that she thought she could.

I don't know.
That's what I, that's the only thing.

It, it's possible that's what she wanted, she wanted to put herself in such a corner that, um, well, without a plan would come and rescue her.

I actually thought like, the best thing she could have done was, um, like from the West Wing when, uh Bartlett comes out as having MS, it's like going to the lawyer and be like, ok, here's all the stuff I did.

I'm gonna turn my, you know, I'm gonna go public with what I with, with how I lied and, like, have that defense ready before you actually get to the point of, you know, making a deal with the Federation is not legal, legal advice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, but I mean, going on and Eric said, like, I think that, I think that she turned, she sent like whatever she sent to Star Fleet directly following when she did her personal log, deleted it and she's like, you know what?

Fuck it.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this personal log and I'm actually gonna send it to them. Here.
I am.
This is me.

So, yeah, the greatest show man. Yeah.
Uh MC.
Do you have anything else?

And that, that, that was about it.
I mean, if she had done it earlier also, she wouldn't have implicated Pike. Like, because that was a huge thing.
That's true.
Yeah.
Er, yeah, I honestly, I'm the same as MC.
I've watched so many, like, Law and Order and random law shows.

I was just like, oh, it's the scene that they're gonna try and get rid of a, a lawyer and then get another one later, especially when we saw the trailers and we knew that another lawyer was gonna come in and, you know, defend her.

Um, I, I thought the, the guy who played the lawyer was very good at being meek and like, timid.

I thought that was really funny.
Uh, Ian Stewart, you did a great job for what little you had. So, yeah, he definitely sounded nice.
He was nice.
He was nice.

Which is exactly what does not need, right?

Uh, not to say again, like, I, I don't want to shit on public defenders either because I'm sure he was very capable, but I don't think that una necessarily needed nice.

She needed someone who was gonna be a, you know, like advocate a zealous avo.

Thank you.

Yes, exactly.

Um Let's move on to this, the, the charming environment as, as Captain Pike put it on the planet.

Uh the episode kind of starts right where episode 201 began pike reaching his destination uh to speak with Nira trying to convince her to take Ina's case because Una contacted her pike contacted her, wouldn't return any calls.

So he takes a 2.5 day shuttle ride on the brand new fancy shuttles um to go to go plead his case.

Um nearer is hesitant for a variety of reasons including a just general disdain for Federation Starfleet and their archaic laws against genetic modification.

Yeah.
So um there's definitely also something that happened between her and in the past.

I know, I think most of us are convinced that they were, yeah, they were definitely lovers at some point.

I think it's pretty obvious.

Um What, what did we, what do you think about this, this scene?

Josh Shari, a variety of issues popped out immediately.

One is the while he's waiting in the lobby, there's a comment about she has a deposition and a an arraignment.

It's rare but not impossible for a lawyer to have both a civil practice and a criminal practice.

Generally speaking, there is you pick one lane or the other. There are some people who do both.

Uh But there is a higher malpractice risk uh When you do that, now, Nari does have a point that why don't you hit that?

And then I wanna jump back.
So like the, the Depot in the arraignment, there's two, I think there's two possibilities.

One is that she does, she does white collar criminal usually, but that doesn't really help her in this circumstance.

It's like the most likely crossover.

Uh The other one though is that it, it actually is possible but not super likely to take depositions in criminal cases, depositions to anybody that does civil litigation is, is bread and butter.

It's one of, it's the way, one of the principal ways that you get, get information from the other side or from your own witnesses, et cetera.

Um But in criminal practice, uh which is very different.

There's a lot of bylaw like everybody turning over what they have, the prosecution is supposed to turn over everything they've got.

And so you don't normally need to take a deposition, but it's possible that a witness with material testimony you think might not be available for trial for some reason, um to testify like they could be really sick man about to kill over or something like that.

So it is, it is possible but unlikely.

Uh So that's, that's what I had to say about that.

Yeah.

And to be chronological, there's a beautiful passage in California Business and Professional Code section.

Uh 60 68 8 subsection H as in hotel.
And that is a lawyer is to never reject for any consideration personal to him.

So for herself, the cause of the defenseless or the oppressed and when you have the state going after someone because of who and what they are and that they, they do not have an adequate defense.

We're not as lawyers, we're not supposed to go like, yeah, forget about it.

They're on their own.

Like, or I don't think I would win that case.

Maybe I won't take it.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's the old Shakespeare quote.

You know, the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers.

Yeah, that's what you do when you start a dictatorship and you wanna plow over civil rights, you kill all the people who are gonna be in your way and those are attorneys.

So, yeah, our job is to represent those who are in legal jeopardy.

Una is in legal jeopardy with something radically complex and they will destroy her life in the process that puts her into that, you know, that, that, that, that term of art for someone who is defenseless or oppressed and that's the time that you're supposed to pony up and stand for.

What is Right? Nice hawk.

Um, I do love the scene and we talk about, you know, una needing someone to zealously represent her and that, I mean, you know, this is what we see in pike, you know, making his way to that office and that breather uh almost running out of oxygen.

Can I interrupt you real quick and you can, you can continue on this point?

Uh Michael Quan writes, it was mean what Pike did to near as secretary never mess with the staff.

Uh If you want to keep going, I was part of me was wondering if he adjusted that breather a little bit just to ramp up the ramp up the jeopardy of his situation there to get her into action.

And that even still, I managed to get him into the office and I like that.

Um As far as Nira, maybe not wanting to take the case, I mean, uh uh you know, all due respect and that to, you know, to Josh and, and that with personal issues, you know, she could have easily said I, I can't, I, you know, I'm maybe I'm a little too, you know, emotionally involved with this particular client to take on this case or I want to talk about that, I think as c there's a lot to unpack in most of these things, but we totally agree

hock there, there is, there is a lot to unpack in that too, ok. Um Regardless, I'm glad she took it.

And um um I did love like her interaction with Una and that it's like, you know, we, yeah, as MC mentioned, Una is someone who's used to being in control, you know, of the situation and knows what to do and that, but, you know, she just demonstrated herself, he, you know, that, you know, wanting to take the stand that she would, she would have been horrible, making the decision decisions in her own case.

You know, this is like no one should represent themselves.

You know, she would have left herself open to attack and not only that she would have jeopardized Pike's career as well.

Draft.
Well, so, um, because I'm, you know, it's not my field.
I just didn't know that it was like two different, two different sides of blow. I was just like, I didn't either.
But, ah, I just, like, she works hard, go boss.
You know, it was about it.
I had no idea what that meant.

But, um, another thing I love the style of the secretary or the front office person, like the makeup and these nails again, I'm going to be very basic on this because he said everything that was important.

But, um, I'm going to say one more thing.

Well, I used to run mock trials, uh, and it was a very steep learning curve for me because I realized that I didn't know anything about the justice system in France because France citizen very rarely have to deal with the justice system.

Very rarely we don't, so we don't sue each other at all.
Like, if you have to deal with the justice system, you messed up bad.
Because the state is suing you and that's bad.
Like, you know, so um I had to learn what was like, you know, the French justice system

and all that and um to be able to run French mock trials.

And the interesting thing that always strikes me in Star Trek is that it is so deeply an American show like this is American justice.

So totally A to Z like the proceeding that the, the, the room um the the of the lawyers, the office, everything and that's at one point, I'm like, are you trying still to tell us that it's a Federation and it's everybody's together or it's just basically America is like the galaxy.

I mean, no, I mean, I think you have a great point. It is very American, right?
Star Trek has always been very American.
The federation has always been a very American.

I think that Star Trek hasn't tried to hid the fact while not outright saying it that despite World War Three and the Eugenics wars, the US probably came out somewhat OK from all that and we're still at the end of everything, one of the main ruling powers.

That's maybe also speaking of France, why we see the office of the president in France in Paris, right?

Like there were some countries that came out after World War three, better than others.

Well, the other thing is that let's be honest, I'm sorry for an A and Josh, but uh, we usually what we do, we run on both mock trials like the same story and we run it in the French justice system and the American justice system, the French justice system is way better at protecting people than the American one, first of all, because you don't need to pay anybody like any, everything is public, like public defendant or lawyer.

Like we, like, if you, like, like in a, in a, what do you call?

I don't know how to translate all that but like, um we have judges that are here to uh work, like build the file, you know, and basically discoveries are not done by like your lawyer or stuff like this.

If you have money or not, it doesn't change anything as a citizen.
Like you can be poor, you can be rich.
It's not gonna change how much resources you're gonna have in your trial.

The resources are gonna be the same for everybody and even like, pass that, pass like that, like, forget that.

Why not put some like Vulcan stuff or uh Andorian stuff or, you know, stuff?

I mean, you see them in the trial but it's still so absolutely an American system, like, be a bit uh inventive.

I don't know.

Machin, like, throw something in that is very Vulcan.

I don't know.

Was there anything, is there anything that was like, you know, not usual.

So if I could just offer two thoughts, I think I didn't know I didn't identify something that was specifically not American.

Uh but I have a quick thought about uh a couple of quick thoughts about that. The first one is, I think you're absolutely right.

Uh giraffe and that uh the legal things that we've seen throughout Star Trek have all been based off of that core uh Anglo American legal traditions, which include common law, right?

So, like the fact that even in this episode, I think it was um like mentions a case and says that it established this rule just having sort of this system of law getting elaborated on and then decided as precedent by judges is a, is a, is a thing of common law.

A lot of most other European countries except for England, uh do civil law just where everything is right written out in statute and judges don't make presidential decisions.

But the last part I wanted to say is that even in Vulcan law, I have to say, I think the writers are kind of a little bit informed by that common law tradition.

Um uh which I, I don't mean to say is necessarily better, but I do like it. And it's because in one episode, I think it was a Star Trek Discovery.

Um there was a sort of judicial proceeding in which, you know, a question of fact was supposed to be decided.

And it was what I was saying before, it was adversarial, each side argued point of view. And there are uh flaws and there are strengths to a system that's adversarial.
But at core, it's the idea that if we can have and it's, of course, there's a lot of problems

with this, but in theory, if we can have two sides, um who disagree about something super important, be it civil or criminal, put on their best arguments and their best facts and then let a judge or a jury decide between those that we're, we're, we're gonna arrive at something closer to the truth than just having, just picking one person to be the neutral arbiter and do all the investigation and decide what happens.

So that, that's the fundamental premise and that's kind of what the Vulcan needs to be too.

And unification is unification free and like there are a bunch of romance in this, so don't trust them.

I don't know what they're doing and nobody knows what the hell they're doing. Let's be honest, a 1000 years from now.
So let's not racially profile.

However, uh Star Trek uh Deep Space Nine had a trial each season and one of the trial episodes is tribunal where we do get to see a radically different system of governance and the courts with the Kardashians, which is more like a Soviet style.

We're gonna shoot you in the back of the head and you're already guilty at the beginning.

And so there is comparative law, I mean, in enterprise, the episode. Judgment uh is a solid trial episode.

And one of the few that actually gets to a resolution and the Klingon system is a lot like ours, but more rough and tumble.

That's one of my favorite episodes is, is worth trial, right?

When he rules of engagement, I love that episode.

And, and so we end up being like in lower deck, you know, with the, the word of truth.

So the, the issue is for comparative law purposes though, there's just the base reality that writers in Burbank are gonna write to what they've seen and experience.

So if you had someone who grew up in a civil law system in, in France, they're probably gonna write something that looks more like the French system because that's what they know.

Louisiana, which is, uh, uh uh the only state in the union that has civil law and I wrote,

there's the joke that California is closed because we have a very big code.

Uh So there's, there's a lot to unpack there, but the, the key issue is the writers are gonna write what they know and which is why it's gonna look like the American system because that's what they know.

Uh, so I, I don't think it's an issue of discrimination.
We're not thinking about discrimination but maybe a little longer. I agree with that.
Yeah.

Just like, I'd like, I don't know, make up a little bit of things to, like, make it feel a little bit like it's law in a long time, a little Vulcan in there, they get multiple options, but I, I don't think it's, uh, I would say in a little Vulcan law on this episode is why Starfleet may have lost us a little bit was just like, went at it from way two of a point of view.

Right.
Um, MC and Eric, quick thoughts on, on this scene.

Uh I feel like I've been hit by a truck just like LA later in this episode, just like with a shuttle.

We know Tara doesn't like her car references.
Um No, uh I love Nira really establishes herself in the scene.

Uh You know exactly who she is and pike you, you find out just exactly how far he'll go for una and he absolutely tampered with that oxygen thing.

Like it was the reader that said that it was 1% like it wasn't actually about to run out the drama, drama.

Yeah.
Yeah, I think he tampered with it too.
I really like that.
Um Pike and are sort of like two sides of the same coin. They 100% for something till the end.

And I, I like, I like seeing that in this small sequence because you could see where it was going.

Yeah.
Um I love the scene simply because of the two of them acting off of each other, right? Like these are two tremendous actors in a tremendously, well, acted scene.

Um We get the line in episode 201 with Una going like there you, there's you being the Boy scout again and pike during this scene is 100% like Captain Boy Scout that we know him to be right.

It's just so good.

It's Yeah, Boy Scout diplomacy.

This is why I love Christopher Pike.

It's like why he's like one of my favorite characters in Trek ever.

Um I love this scene but even more so um Draff has been saying it all week, I've been saying like, bad is just fucking amazing.

Um The minute that we meet her in this episode, she just puts it on 100% and does not stop until this one hour and three minutes minute episode is over.

So just tip of the cap uh Absolutely fantastic.

Let it would not work as well without her because she carries this episode like so much of it 100%.

Um Let's move on to the trial and, and amending the charges, right?

Because we learn that Patel is a bit of a pawn in all this, right?

During a great scene with, with her and Pike.

Um Patel kind of lets him know like, listen, that deal was really good.

Like my boss, the judge Advocate General has some stake in this and is it's out of my hands.

Um And that's Vice Vice Admiral Paal, who we also learned is like a associate or you know, acquaintance of which is also really interesting.

Um He has some other motive with this case.

Uh But n is now on board, she's come and she's, she's uh representing UNA um And then right, at the order of Pao, at least we assume it's, it's gotta be amends the charges, right?

Adding two counts of sedition.

And now looking at 20 years in a Federation penal colony, um that's on top of the, the uh dishonorable dismissal.

Nari Josh explain what is happening here with these amendments to the charges, prosecu prosecutorial misconduct.

So here's, here's the nice way to think about it.
Someone's arrested for shoplifting.
They're told you can plead guilty to your shoplifting charge.
When they say not guilty, they then get charged with domestic terrorism BS.
So do you say PS or BS BS?
Because you absolutely need probable cause to charge somebody.
And if we take a look at what sedition is, uh there isn't any probable cause for sedition.

So the very old view of sedition from the sedition Act of 17 98 which is why John Adams was a one term president uh allowed for the punishment of those who Yeah, well, the XYZ affair was serious, but we should have built up the navy, not an army.

So those who made false, so slanderous and malicious writings against the government, uh either House of Congress or the president if published with the intent to define any of them or to excite them against the contempt or hatred of the people.

No, I just want to say for the legal geeks that are listening, that's the Alien and Sedition Act.

Uh It, it is wildly unconstitutional in a modern view of the first amendment.

Um But it's a really good illustration for like how the our understanding of the first amendment has wildly evolved over the last couple of 100 years.

Uh This was like literally like pretty much the first act passed by the first congress.

Um And it flies in the face of everything we think of as a right to free speech. Yeah.

Uh Following up with that, you get the Smith Act, which is Sedition Act part two, which was intended to protect the government from violence, revolution and terrorism.

Also for those in the military, it's punishable by death to create a revolt to overthrow the government.

Una does none of that charging her with sedition is just dropping the hammer on her to smash her into little pieces.

It's purely for revenge.

Josh wrote, sorry to interrupt you.

You wrote prosecutor or I don't know if I don't know if you wrote this prosecutor.

Sorry if I butcher that misconduct.

Is this just, is that just also another term for overreach?

Like is this just hardcore overreach on their part?

No, because prosecutors have special ethical responsibilities that any charge that they bring is supported by probable cause.

And if you are just dropping a nuclear bomb on someone because they didn't plead guilty.

You've, they, they were violating their ethical duties as prosecutors.

So this is all bad and the fact that you have a Vulcan admiral who's the puppet master is also extremely telling and you know, when jumping to his closing argument about toxic, that's extreme.

Nari cared to wait.
Yeah.
Uh I'd love to elaborate a little bit.

So, um uh I, so because this is a military court, I would look at the specific uh I think parallel which is the article 94 of the UCMJ, um which reads any person subject to this chapter who with the intent to cause the overthrow of destruction of lawful civil authority

creates in concert with any other person revolt, violence or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition.

Uh So our, our understanding of sedition has changed a lot over time, but that's what's currently on the books if you're in a military court.

Uh what's really important to note here though is uh with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority.

So we, we could quibble about whether or not what she did was causing a disturbance or all these other things and those are also important elements.

Um But there, there, it turns when I was watching this live, I was sitting there thinking, hm, they haven't shown that they have any evidence of that unless they've got like something surprised during the trial, which you're not supposed to have like surprise witnesses.

Uh That seems a little dubious and in fact, during the trial, they don't put on any witnesses, any evidence to try to show that una much less Captain Pike um had any intent in, in doing what they were doing to overthrow Starfleet or the Federation.

Uh So I agree with Josh here that this is preposterous and most of the time in real life, you don't really, it's really hard to prove that a prosecutor brought a charge without probable cause.

This is fiction though.
And we get the benefit of seeing um everything that we and we, what we see is true.

Um So in this case, I would agree that this is a case where they're, they're bringing these sedition charges and they have no evidence to prove a critical element.

Um Prosecutors are supposed to have the probable cause to prove every element.

Uh And, and somewhat interestingly, uh the doj for example, has an internal policy of only charging when they think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, which isn't necessarily ethically required.

But so here, certainly they can't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt if they have zero evidence.

Uh Not even little evidence.

The last bit I want to know is that the fact that they're amending these charges apparently on the eve of trial is also a really big problem because you have a right to mount a defense.

And if you get slammed with new charges that you haven't been able to form a legal theory for, haven't been able to gather evidence in your own defense for like the eve of trial.

That, that's, that's not right.

And it's, it's somewhat topical, the speedy Trial Act right now.

But the speedy trial act guarantees you, uh, uh, uh, a, a trial within a maximum amount of time, but it also guarantees you a minimum amount of time which I believe is 30 days in order to mount your defense.

So if they amended these, now she should have gotten one more month to get her defense ready.

It's the future. Everything goes faster. No.

Uh Now I wanna, so I wanna say something that some of you might be shocked because the actress who plays near the defense attorney does the great job as a lawyer.

I despise her as an attorney because she's putting the I in client.

She doesn't give a damn about una she actually has the audacity to just say I am not doing this for you.

I am doing this for me. BS.

No, you're supposed to have a duty of loyalty to your client, not to whatever lost cause that you have, that you wanna to wage war uh to, to, to vindicate the issue is your client that you have to defend and the fact that she says that fire her because we have conflict of interest rules.

Uh California rule is uh 1.7 D and I'll just read the relevant section.
So we don't get into all the commas, but a lawyer shall not represent a client.

If there is a significant risk that the lawyer's representation of the client will ma material be materially limited by the lawyer's responsibilities by the lawyer's own interests.

Here, you have a political activist who is trying to score political points for her cause and not represent her client.

She is the wrong lawyer to handle this case.
I think we're, we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves.

I want to highlight, I think there's like the scene in between Admiral April's testimony where it seems like una is really surprised by a strategy that she's taking there.

Uh And so I know we're getting ahead of it.

So I just want to highlight like there are, there's a long and storied tradition of criminal defendants becoming martyrs for causes and a lot of our landmark cases are people who were willing to not plead in order to take the case that challenges a law as, as unconstitutional.

But they did.
So with their lawyers telling them that's what they were doing.

And it's, and that's the main thing here that I, that I agree with Josh that I have an issue with is it, it's, it seems clear from that scene with Admiral April that they didn't have a heart to heart beforehand to explain that this may not be like in line with your personal interest and this may be not the winningest strategy, but it's really good for this cause.

Are you on board?
Um Nari, you actually have a question from the chat from Haven.

Um Do you think they did mention the new charges prior to the trial, which I mean, we do see in the scene but maybe even during a private meeting, um A K A, she knew the charges as a possibility if she had pled not guilty.

Um Do you, do you think that that happened?

So uh it may have happened but formalities matter a lot in law.

Uh And so the fact that they were introducing the new charges at this, which I assume is like an arraignment where they, they issue, they, they, they take whether or not they plead guilty or not guilty.

Uh That's a really big deal.

It should have started that clock over even if they had previewed informally to her that they might bring these charges.

I also want to note that they like essentially bring charges during the trial, which was because they didn't, they did not charge her with conspiracy originally because they did not implicate Captain Pike.

But in the middle of the trial, they start implicating Captain Pike and essentially add the charge of conspiracy.

So you, you, you definitely can't add charges uh at the arraignment and then not give them 30 days to prepare you certainly can't add charges in the middle of trial.

Yeah.

Uh, other thoughts on this episode.

Not on this episode.

Jesus.

Uh, on the scene, I do agree, like, seemed to be overreaching of that.

He seemed to turn more into Noris at, at some point that one 150%.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's only my, like, that's one of my minus point on that episode and I think we're talking about it.

Like, you know, our chat is like the, the V AM is like cartoonishly evil, sometimes cartoonishly evil.

You were like, what are you doing?

Like, what's your, what's your angle at one point?

I was like, I don't listen, what's going on?

Like they established that I don't know if we're going to speak about that like Spock doesn't like him, like, oh yeah.

So, uh but it seems like he is in a personal, on the personal, like vendetta against una and that can be linked to um a personal biases.

Like, and I do like the fact that there are hints at like at this very um Vulcan vision of things which, you know, we always kind of like.

But you know what?

But my, my head cannon for for was that he's got a vendetta because he got passed up to command the enterprise ahead of April.

That's my, yeah, they're both vice admirals like, you know. Yeah.

But uh could I give you a quick thought out there just based off what you're saying, giraffe because I think it's a really great point.

Um I there's an ultimate theory that just what you said made me think of here, which is, you know, if he's, if he's representing kind of the consummate Vulcan, whereas Spock is representing someone who has, has both the Vulcan in the human world and, and has come to terms to a large extent with emotions.

There, there's a, there's a Thomas Aquinas quote that I think is very suitable here, which is that justice without mercy is cruelty.

And so I think I said this way back when we were podcasting and thinking about what kind of arguments they might bring.

But, you know, there is such a thing as prosecutorial discretion.

I think the easiest thing that, that they could have done in this scenario is not prosecute.

Uh And in this circumstance, I think, uh I think, uh uh is that his name?

Sorry Polk, sorry pa is representing that justice without mercy that he's just saying I see a violation of this law.

I don't care whether the law is just or justified and whether we should continue to enforce it.

We're just going to apply it and disregarding everything else and prosecutorial discretion is a way that at least in our sorry, in our American legal tradition, we do try to bake in uh some of these things that are not strictly legal considerations like whether or not the community cares about this anymore and whether or not it does a service to them, I I do think that it comes also to what I was like talking about is that they have a, they have humans, they have Vulcans in that and, and everybody must have such different concept of what is just what's mercy, what's allowed you already see it between humans of different culture, right?

Like justice systems throughout the world, like concepts, some concepts, not the same, but some vision of the concept may vary widely depending on where you are and from which culture you you are.

So I do think that it was kind of interesting to see a Volcan there and, and having that glimpse of you, it's the law, you don't respect the law, you're guilty end of it.

Why are we discussing this?

Which again raised the question of how Vulcan society functions and how much trauma Spock had to go through in his childhood.

Let's not talk about Amanda Grayson living there.

But um I, I think it like, I think it brings an interesting question.

Um Yeah, MC.

Uh Well, I think like just putting aside like, what is actually legal in our real world, which I know is hard when we have the legal geeks on here.

I think what everything that una is going through on both sides really speaks to just how um discriminated against people who are augmented.

And one thing that really stood out to me in this episode is sometime during the trial.

I can't remember exactly when I think the judge is talking and it's almost word for word what the judge said in Doctor Bashir.

I presume, you know, bringing up everything about Khan and, you know, all of the stuff eugenic was, I think that was very much on purpose.

It was very much on purpose and it, it, it chills me to the bone that it's been how many, like hundreds and hundreds of years since one man did something that they're still bringing it up, that it's, that it's still, you know, forming like this prejudice for like a vast number of people.

So it might just be not one man, he had a whole army of augment. Well, I mean, they, they're always bringing up.
No, no, he was the leader.
He is the one who, yeah.

Um, it's, it's almost like the law is formed in such a way that it's like we're, we're, you

know, totally, you know, non-discriminatory.

We're, we're perfectly legal except for this, this is the one thing that like, we have complete blind spots to there.

The one thing. Yeah.
All several things. Yeah.

And with, with Nira, she's so determined to like, this is, this is why I'm saying that Una really should have planned things out ahead of time because like Uno's whole thing with this is that she didn't want to live a lie anymore and working alongside Nira.

Probably would have been like the perfect thing to have done, but to have actually had, had like more time to prepare for it than just the, you know, una getting arrested.

Um Just like, yeah, II I think that we're definitely seeing like an example of just how discriminated against augments are and, and stress three K in the chat made a perfect point.

Right?

They had to prosecute, right.

Augmentations are so despised and feared and starling in the Federation.

They felt compelled to make an example of especially when she doesn't take the deal.

Well, is it, is it an example if nobody knows about it?

Well, they weren't gonna know about it until they didn't take the deal, right?

Because they were going to steal her records.

But the minute that they don't take the deal, then, you know, you could see on the enterprise like this is being televised for everybody to see.

So and Haven has also brought up in the chat that this is very much related to like the LGBT Q plus community.

I think like this episode, if you talk to anybody from any marginalized community, they will say how this episode relates to them in some way because yeah, they hit me hard

as a black person.

Yeah, it it it this this episode really like works so well generalized to just anybody who's been discriminated against.

But yes, I do agree.

Like there there is very much an element of like the, don't ask, don't tell case, like cases just gonna say MC, I think that is the closest legal analogy.

Um There, obviously you can, there's a lot of, to all the different groups that have been discriminated against over the years and our evolving understanding of how these legal problem, what these legal promises mean.

But that's, I think that's got to be the closest one, especially with her line if I didn't want to live a lie anymore.

Yeah.

Well, that's one of the reasons why I think that uh Nira and Uno were past lovers because Nira, like they, they parted because Nira wanted to live out and proud.

Meanwhile, Uno wanted to keep a secret to serve in the military. I mean, like that's barely subtext to it.

Eric, I'm sorry, Josh, did you want, sorry Josh going for the have a plan when you go to court.

A good example of how that actually works is uh the cases from the uh late sixties dealing with birth control that ultimately led to Roe and granted, you know, those cases are getting attacked.

Uh But those who wanted to get birth control actually came up with a plan for, I will go buy this.

There were lawyers lined up to take the case up and there was a coherent plan in place for this is how we're going to uh take on the State of Virginia.

Uh and, and their anti, you know, uh uh, uh, procreation, uh, uh, medications and, and, uh, everything and like that, there's a good plan on how to challenge a law that you think is unjust as opposed to.

I will win it.
Yeah, I did want to also say MC because he brought up the doctor, I presume episode, I

wanna, I wanna just make sure we loop back to that at some point because I, I do think that, um, while I have some, I will have some critiques about how uh the, the like the, what the defense did and how the trial went down.

I do want to, I, I feel like the writers did feel constrained because by the time of deep space nine, this regulation is still on the books.

So they were constrained in the sense that the result could not be, this regulation is overturned.

Um As inconsistent with a higher law, I I, we can get to it later.

I do think there are other things that they could have done.

But I, I think that's a significant constraint here and also pretty depressing.

You're absolutely right because it's not even just doctor the doctor episode, but it's all I but it's also in the season finale of prodigy.

So, yeah, with doll.

So Eric, sorry.

Yeah.

So I remember watching this and looking up hearing that the extra accounts with sedition, I was like, what the fuck is that?

And I look, boy, I swore sorry. Um oh boy, whatever will we do.

And I was looking at it, I was like, wow, that's, that's really like, that was really piling on to.

Um, and, and it made me think about all the civil rights, like, trials that I remember seeing in like, movies and stuff.

And I'm like, they're, they're using her as an example.

Like, they're, they're trying to scare anyone who would try to, you know, come out and, you know, be part of star, which is unfortunate and it like it, it was heartbreaking, but I, I knew where this is headed.

Like just from all those tropes that we've seen in those civil tropes like they happen in real life.

I got it.

II I hate saying that.

Um and they still happen today.

So, um you know, it, it's heartbreaking to see this and to see I knew where it was headed as a person of color.

Like I, as Jeff said that like when we watch these things, we're like, we know where this is headed.

Yeah, unfortunately, but a great way to discredit the prosecution is to bring a motion to dismiss on those specific charges.

Being able to say this is not supported by probable cause because then you can make the state look like overreaching jerks to the judge and knee cap them out of the gate.

Yeah.
Yeah.
But again, motion practice is not sexy, fair, fair.

Um Let's talk very briefly because we do need to get to the trial, but I do want to talk about this scene and, uh, we'll start with the, the Stranger Pot crew first because more and less law talk.

Um, some good moments in this episode.

Right.

Pike.

Sit down with Patel who warns him about taking the stand and how that can only hurt una um Spock and sit down and a of being able to read their body language.

They just so I love this moment so much. Go ahead.
Ok.
Yes.

Ok.

I have many opinions.

So, first of all, uh a bad ass like standing up to the security officer, she's just an, and she's just laying down the law.

She's like, you're gonna get in trouble, I'm gonna get in trouble.

This is not something we want to do and love the fact that she's vindicated at the end by the fact that yes, it, it would not have, it would not have helped.

And I do like this little scene because usually in Star Trek you see them play fast and loose with everything being like you're my friend and we serve together and we're sisters and I'm gonna do it for you.

And I like the fact that is like, no, I'm not gonna do that. And that lad is like, ok, fair enough and leaves.

I was like, yes, positive, healthy relationship between people working together and I'm, I was into it.

I, I think it was a small scene but it was a very important scene to change the dynamic that we usually see between people and build the character and how they interact.

Uh The other scene I disliked but liked was the same scene with uh Ortegas reading the Vulcans.

Um During Quality of mercy, we're like, oh, this is like alternate uh timeline uh Ortegas.

And she's a bigot because she's matching like the, no, no, no, she does have a bias she does have and it's not implicit, it's like a totally clear uh bias about Vulcans and we see her make fun and I loved um how uh is redirecting her instead of judging her and telling her no, you're wrong.

Uh What you're doing is not cool is like there, the is your colleague is your friend, we serve together, respect him, you, you, you should respect him.

He was like, this is not how that is not what is going on.

Like, look, this is what is going on and, you know, still helping, hoping to like, diffuse and, and teach and reoriented, like, like, I don't know, like put her in a, in a different vision of what's going on.

And it's very telling.
He knows Vulcan, he lived on Vulcan, he studied on Vulcan and most probably know,

knows why Ortega has that bias, which we don't know, but maybe he does know.

So I thought it was a very interesting episode because a very interesting scene because it gave so much depth to these characters, like little things, little like in, into their character, how they see things, how they interact and beautifully acted.

By the way again, Spock was like, um you know, like that little, like very Nimoy in a way. It was, that whole scene was very Nimoy.
I thought I was watching Nimoy in that scene.
It was never that Jack OK.

Minus the shirt almost ripping off his chest. Um uh Jack Jack, he's thick.
He's not Jacked anymore.
Um And, and we love this, I have to say this. It is not a negative dig.

It's a compliment.

Yeah, absolutely.

We, we absolutely love seeing this.

Um But yeah, MC I love everything about this.

Uh I feel like in these first two episodes, we're really establishing just how fucking professional una is, I'm not apologizing for not una is, I'm not apologizing for swearing.

Um So just in the, in the first episode, she's all like, you know, stay away from my console and in this, she's like, I'm not going to break the rules for you, you know, you would not, you don't want me to break the rules.

And I, I love Leon's role in this episode because I feel like Leon is in every other Star Trek trial episode except for this one because in Star Trek trial episodes there does tend to be like that, you know, oh, we uh we found the evidence of that somebody, you know, made up or, you know, somebody's trying to frame you, which is what Leon is trying to find.

But that's not the way that this trial goes, trial goes, you know, by going through the

books and actually like looking up the law and trying to find how to solve things. And I really like that.
I like that.

We kind of have that misdirect with and it also ties to, you know, her emotional story with, with Una and that scene with Spock, that, that scene with, with Spock and Ortegas and Mega is better than every single Spock scene in the last episode just combined.

Like it is just so wonderfully perfectly Spock and this whole thing with Ortegas as Giraffe was saying, you know, tying it to quality of mercy and her um prejudice against Falkins.

This makes me if we're going to get any Spock episodes, I want one with him and Ortegas having to work together, like come on like, well, first of all Ortegas, but also I want to see them have to work past this.

Have they ever really interacted on the show? Really?
Except for like last week.
Yeah.

I'm hoping they're building towards that. That's a great point.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.

You can have a style as in uh balance of terror moment and, and realize, oh I was wrong.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which, which is part of the big message of track that people learn to work together and overcome whatever hang up that they had and, uh, it's an opportunity.

Yeah.

Eric.

Yeah.

Like everyone said earlier, I love the, the scene I loved seeing, um, who becoming her own self.

Like we see where she's becoming, like, who she's becoming and it's, it's totally there and it's awesome seeing this little baby version of her, um, uh, the Moa and Spock and, um, and, um, oh, my God.

Ortega Ortega scene.

How did I forget Ortega?

You drew her?

I know.

I'm sorry, it's fine.

I loved it.

I love that.

It's um going back to that prejudice and I, I do really hope that we get to see why she has that prejudice and um hopefully working past it.

I, I love that is an ally in trying to maybe in quality of mercy.

She didn't have someone to redirect her and like make her see something else like I loved that he was there to, to be like, you know, what, what you see is maybe not what you actually, you know.

You know.
No.
So, um that was cool. I loved it.
Yeah.

Um It's a good thing, right?

Uh Didn't obey laws, orders for personal logs, right?

Because that could really hurt the trial.

Josh Nari thoughts on this.

Yeah, I just wanted to really quickly continue.

Um, a couple of, well, first of all, I wanted to give a shout out to the, the show writers for mentioning an actual legal doctrine which is the fruit of the poison tree.

It is a real thing if, if the government, um, uh, unlawfully obtains a piece of evidence and then gets more evidence from that based off of that, all of the evidence can be excluded.

Um If the defense brings an ex, an ex a suppression motion, um, uh, that's like, I, I can think of a hypothetical as like, you know, you, you unlawfully search someone's house, found the note that says all of the evidence is hidden here and then they go and get that evidence.

Uh But that would be like the, you know, the silly kind of comical example. Um But so that's a real thing.

Uh I did want to say that like that, you know, that doing your own illegal search was not necessarily the only remedy.

Um It's kind of unfortunately a little bit commonplace that uh the defense suspects that the prosecution has, hasn't handed over everything.

Remember I said earlier that in criminal, in criminal cases, the defense is supposed to hand over all of the evidence that they have obtained in their investigation, not just the evidence that they think supports their prosecution.

And so the first evidence that they had uh that una was, was an augment or was modified, uh should have been in that file that they turned over and it apparently was not.

Uh And so I'm not, I'm not a criminal practitioner, but there are like motions and methods that you could bring to try to, that if you have some fact, uh, to suggest that they're not turning over everything, that's something in their file critical perhaps to you is missing.

Uh, but, and as you're absolutely right, like, as it turns out, this doesn't seem, it isn't, wouldn't have been fruitful in the, in the first place.

But also the last thing I'll just say is like, you know, really great job because also, just because your opponent is you think breaking the rules doesn't necessarily mean that you should therefore break the rules.

Uh And you know, having that respect for that was, was really, was really great. Yeah, you have a, those in the military have a duty to follow lawful orders.
The orders are presumed lawful unless they are unlawful on their face.
The fact that aura is asked to do something that she knows is unlawful.

She can say no.

And so, and, and being able to say I am not following your unlawful order because she doesn't say I'm on the hook because the I was just following orders.

Defense does not have a great track record of in, in any court of what big deal. I was told to shoot the guy in the back when that happened.
No, he's convicted.
So all bad.

So the fact that she holds her ground citing a real legal doctrine and they actually do quote two real legal doctrines.

That was very affirming nice um let's get to the court martial.

It is it is that time, right?

Uh Patel and Nira make their opening statements, right?

Patel going straightforward genetic modification is illegal and dangerous.

Nira immediately goes on the offensive comparing the federation's genetic modification laws to slavery, apartheid religion.

LGBT Q discrimination saying law does not make something just which is absolutely fucking true.

By the way, how would we score their opening statements? So an opening statement is not opening argument.

This is where you give the road map to your case.

You should be providing what the elements are and how the facts that you will present will make those elements.

This is a TV show where they're doing it in like 30 seconds each.

So we do give them some passes, but editing wise, they actually do a really good job of showing this as a, as a good dynamic trial on what a trial could look like with the exception of witnesses getting mixed in for, for testimony.

Uh Nari has uh some things to say about the opening statements and I'll come back.

Yeah, I have some longer thoughts.

I will try to keep them as brief as possible.

Um You know, I agree that overall like the, the, the present presentation of the form, it was pretty good.

I agree.
I'm giving a lot of passes for the fact that like real trials often make really bad.

Um uh Like for Josh is right, the prosecutor should just lay out what the elements of each of the charges are trying to prove is and, and preview, they don't get to like, say what the facts are, but preview what they're going to show in order to prove them.

Um, and typically the prosecution does not and does not need to, uh, start their opening statement by justifying, uh, the law, which is, I think maybe a hint here that they're not, they're already thinking about that as a problem.

Um But in, unless the other side has brought some kind of a challenge that would call that into question.

And this is the other reason why I, I wasn't, I wasn't fully happy with the defense's opening either.

And it's not because they made these references to really important expansions of what we think of as, you know, equal protection and all these things and highlighting places where things have been lawful, but not just, but it's a, it's not strictly relevant to the defense if they don't take the next legal step, which is to actually challenge this law as unlawful under a higher law.

So, uh uh what, how you would do that is, you know, I, I presume that the Federation has something like uh the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause or something

like the First amendment's free exercise clause.

Um And those laws are typically higher, uh like the constitution is a higher law than statutes passed by Congress or in this case, Starfleet regulations.

Um And so, you know, you, if you have a lower law that is inconsistent with the higher law, you make the argument that this law is unlawful and it cannot be enforced.

Um You can also make that argument to natural law. It's not done very often.

But for example, in England, um slavery was first outlawed um by a judge uh saying that, well, this is an act of Congress or Parliament and it is inconsistent with, they don't have a written constitution, but it is inconsistent with natural law is what they actually appealed to.

Um And the, the, the parliamentary statute that authorized uh the owning of people was originally struck down um because it was inconsistent with natural law which was considered higher.

And so, in this case, I think that the lawyer should have taken the extra step of saying that this star fleet regulation uh is unlawful in view of and they could have canonically created finally as a legal geek, they could have canonically created uh some of these core rights that we think of as er actually saying that in the chat, we really need a full canon text of the uh the United Federation of Planets Constitution.

Absolutely.

The canonical text of Federation law is very sparse but this could have been the introduction of some article, some um um piece of, of higher law that, that enshrined for the Federation, those, those core principles of non-discrimination or core principles of free exercise of religion and, and then could have brought them to here.

So I think that like the, the, the references to those values is powerful but to make it relevant to this case, they had to bring that challenge.

Um I understand like I said, that they couldn't over, they couldn't, the result couldn't be overturning the law, but there are a lot of ways in which that could have still played out.

Um I, I don't want to preview too much about the end. Um I, I'll, I'll just, I'll just table that until the end.

But those are my thoughts and, and I will jump in because we get to uh Admiral April's testimony and it's a little weird on who actually called him.

So the general rule for witness testimony is if someone's giving their direct examination that they are your witness, the lawyer does 10% of the talking, the witness does 90% of the talking and you want to avoid narrative answers where they just drone on and on.

So you give them something specific to answer, let them talk, ask the next thing if you're cross examining them, the lawyer does 90% of the talking and the witness does 10 that you are trying to keep them on a short leash and keep them under control.

So if you're trying to do a cross examination of a high ranking admiral who is decorated and well respected.

You wanna do that as bluntly as possible of on this star date, you violated general order number one by saving this planet, didn't you?

Yes.

On start a why you save this planet from annihilation, didn't you?

Yes.

And so you, that's all that you need to get and other fun fact, none of those people in the courtroom will side with the defense attorney.

So if you come out swinging, any lawyer comes out swinging against a witness, those in the jury box and the judge will instinctively side with the witness and not think in terms of, well, the lawyer is right to be a schmuck, the lawyer's right to attack a highly decorated a admiral who has saved thousands of people.

So let's try to give him a black eye because you have a lawyer on a personal vendetta against the Federation.

So again, this goes to her duty of competency, it goes to her duty of loyalty and also it's just bad courtroom practice to attack April.

So there's, I mean to do the my cousin Vinny approach the way that the witness who needed thicker glasses was cross examined.

Sweet, gentle.
She was not destroyed.
She was not humiliated.
It was dear.
I think you need thicker lenses and she goes, oh, golly, I too like that's you wanted

something more in line with that as opposed to make enemies of every Starfleet officer in that courtroom fair point though, Ben, he does go after a witness in that who's being particularly like, you know, um, obstreperous, obstreperous.

That's an amazing word.

What is that word?

And Hawk, I'll, I'll, I'll let you go in a second.

Let me, let me combine these two talking points as we started talking about April.

Right?

When April does take the stand, right?

But, but tell, asked him if he would have sponsored, um, una Starfleet Academy application, had he known that she was an ally?

And he hesitantly says, no, right.

Um Near cross examines as Joshua was talking about and asked about what general order is.

Um you know, which is obviously we learned last season now known as the Prime directive, uh she proceeds to grill him on all the times that he broke General Order one, which is a very popular thing to do on board the enterprise.

It's the flagship Kirk Pike, April Picard, you name him, they've broken the prime directive a lot.

Um Basically saying that he's hiding behind those regulations as to why he would have sponsored una you know, is it, it makes it a falsehood.

Um This kind of causes him to make this outburst right?

And stand by his comments near accuses April's decision to be made out of fear and prejudice.

Two very important things happen here, we learned, Una didn't ask to be augmented and April and Starfleet are made to look really bad even if it wasn't maybe the right decision as Josh was alluding to um and his testimony is thrown out.

So Hawk go off about what you thought about.
Not only the opening the opening statements, but also April's testimony.

Well, I, like I said, not opening testimony, opening statement, sorry, the opening statements uh near was basically a lot stronger than uh Betel's was um going after April.

Um Like I said, if, if Vinny went a hard after, you know, the my because Vinny comparison, he went hard after the one who was insisting that he cook the grits in five minutes instead of 20.

Um uh which is something you see if it, if you can't get the right answer, not the right answer, but the, you know, getting a, a witness pass their own like obstreperousness.

Uh You see that, I, we see that quite a bit, Josh's dying, but also she did elicit part from Robert April pattern in Starfleet with their captains that they do have certain uh autonomy and decision making, uh which ends up playing in una favor later on in the, in the trial.

Uh When we find out about, you know, went with Captain Pike and her revealing herself as an allu into pike, it makes it a stronger argument towards her, uh her pitch for asylum, right?

Um But I think that her goal was really just to get this, the testimony thrown out all together I think was why she went hard on him.

I don't think that was her goal.
She wanted the testimony in, I don't think so at all.

No, I, I, no, I think she, I think she wanted it in, in order to discredit Starfleet and getting it all thrown out.

She doesn't have any of that evidence now.

But it was shown, it was shown publicly on whatever the Federation news network is.

Right.

Everybody saw that, that made Starfleet look bad.

Yeah, but that goes to her personal vendetta against Starfleet not to her clients.

So if she's trying to hit Starfleet to say, you guys don't follow the rules, you shouldn't follow this one.

She now can't rely on that in her closing argument.

I I'm just gonna say that you're both right here in the sense that that may have been her strategy.

Uh And this is why I think I believe it's after this scene, we have that confrontation right between uh Nea and Una where Una seems very surprised by this particular strategy.

Um So I, I agree, Josh that there, there were ethical problems with pursuing um the there's a word for it.

It's a, a advocacy litigation um uh without the consent of your client.

And I think there's a really good chance una would have gone along with it had been explained to her and she had a chance to think about it.

Um But you, you definitely shouldn't spring that strategy on your client in the middle of something that you like hardcore respect.

Right.

Yeah.

I, I almost think that Nira thought, like, that una knew that this is what they were doing, like, and it almost speaks to how their friendship isn't as, you know, as, you know, they haven't, you know, seen each other for 25 years.

Maybe Una would have done that 25 years ago, but not now.

And I feel too, there's like a lot of things that I've been like, because, you know, it's a format of 15 minutes.

Like I just assumed that there were a lot of conversation that were not shown to me, like, sure there was what we had talked to back.

I went along.

I was like, OK, I don't want to see all the n so just go into the court room and yell at each other.

I'm a sucker for drama. Wait, is that my turn? Yeah.
Keep going.

Oh OK. No.

Uh So I was gonna say I'm a peasant, you know, I know nothing about law.

So um I'm the, the average viewer was just here for uh the uh that's why I love that.

You're here because I'm like, oh, I see it now.

That, that, yeah, that should not be a thing.

But um the confrontation, I mean, like the, the uh between uh uh nea and uh Robert April was like, so good as an acting.

Like the tension like these two, you know, imposing characters were like such, you know, presents and leadership and charisma, like, going head to head at uh like, not head to head, but having this conversation, it was, ah, I was so good.

I was like, where is that going?

What is she doing?

Um And II, I was also surprised about, like, I think that's what she was saying, like at the end when she was like, oh, we need to respect the law when she spent, like, the whole thing telling us to that, to not respect the law.

I was like, but OK, you know, why not? I was like, pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot.

Um I thought that I was so surprised by April and I, yeah, I was, I didn't know where it was going.

Like when she asked like, would I uh would, would you have like done the same thing if you knew I was like, say yes, say yes.

So yes.

And when he said no, I was like, Lord and um and I think it was great because we expected him to be an ally because you like April and, and you think, I don't know, you think he, he likes una and, and he wants her to be out of this, you know, and when he says no, I was, I was broken, I was like, oh my God, where this is going.

So I, I do think that it gave more complexity to April because we were all expecting everybody to be the good guy.

You know, especially Robert and he is a good guy, like he says what he thinks and, but like, not in the way that me, the viewer was rooting for, want him to go.

I, I thought it was, it was a really powerful acting, it was really powerful dialogue. Sure.
It's bad love.
And I'm really sorry what?

It's the same when it's bad science.
And I'm like, but the story is good.
But so I just, I fundamentally disagree with the trial strategy.
I mean, there were people on chat saying you can ring the bell.
Yes, you can in court.
Because if you say, well, we'll just throw out his testimony.
They heard both sides of it, both that he would not have put her into Starfleet. So it's just, it's a lose lose situation.

It would have better been better if they had tried making him a defense witness uh to support una and there, there are ways they could have attacked that even if he was unwilling to break the law and get himself thrown out of Star lead in the process.

So there's, there could have been different trials as a, a different trial strategy as opposed to how do we alienate the jury?

I just want to offer one quick thought um as a counter point, which is that.

So, uh you know, I, I spent some time trying to think of like, why, why would the prosecution bring this witness?

Um And you know, and then what was the defense strategy?

And I think that there's a couple, there's a couple of sane reasons why this might have gone down the way that it did.

Uh One is that the prosecution may need to prove that her misrepresentation on her application was material.

Um So like, you know, having this ad, this decorated admiral say that it mattered and, and he wouldn't have given that recommendation uh can go to show that.

But the other reason is that um kind of like what I was hinting at uh previously, if, if the defense had gone down the path of challenging this law as uh unconstitutional or whatever the equivalent is in the Federation, um they, the government may have eventually starfleet may have eventually been in the position of needing to justify the law.

Um And, and explain what they, it's called a compelling government interest when you're up against a, a core constitutional right?

Like that was, um if, if it is found to, to infringe on a core constitutional right.

Uh And in that case, I think it was, it was, it would have been particularly helpful uh to have this examined cross examination in which this person is saying, oh, so the reason why is because the law and then it turns out that they break the law all the time.

And so maybe what matters is is that we, I care about the, the laws um that really matter but not in this case.

And so it really, I think did impeach that testimony if the government had wanted to rely on this as like, oh yeah, this decorated admiral also agrees with us that not letting our genetically modified people in really matters uh that could have been helpful in that respect.

It begs the question also, what is gonna be the relationship between Una and Robert April after that?

Because when somebody una understands, I think you can hurt in much like most of it stings, you know, it definitely stings like when like, oh if I knew who she was really, if you knew she was gay, I would have not promoted her like damn, even if that's overturned, even if you give as you don't forget that, you know what I mean?

It's like you can't understand, but that's still like who you are my mentor.

Like you're not going to stay in a relationship of mentoring and respect of like who that person is for who you are after like that kind of stage.

And I'm not saying I'm not saying sorry IC II I, I'm not saying it's OK in the slightest because it's not right.

What, what Pike not Pike um April does April but you have to imagine that these officers and again, I'm, I'm Preva because I don't fucking agree with it in the slightest.

But you have to imagine especially in this day and age in Starfleet where they're still only a couple of 100 years removed from the eugenic wars and Archer.

And the fact that a, a sing or a song with some of Khan's offspring almost started

another war that it's drilled into these officers. Right.
Genetic modification is awful.
It is bad.

It is horrible and it's wrong and it's, it's horrible.
But don't you think that, that means that that trial should not have taken place on earth?

Because, like after wars, for example, when you have like war criminals being judged or international law, like, you don't do it in the country because it's right.

But unfortunately it's not, it's a court martial like a civil trial, right? Nuremberg was for the Nazis in Nuremberg.
It was in Germany.
Yeah.

But it was Rhoda for the Rhoda um genocide.
It, it was in the right.
I don't know the Hague.
I don't know he's saying, yeah, because the hague didn't exist at the time. Ok.

We had to establish all that in order to make war illegal, uh whether it was the Japanese and their long list of war crimes or the Germans we had that was unprecedented.

And I, I would encourage everyone to read justice Jackson's opening statements in the Nuremberg trial on what they set out to do and why we actually have that criminal court today to deter that.

Now for the issue of Federation laws broken, they're not gonna say that we're gonna change venue to another planet.

Because at the end of the day, the issue is Starfy commands the one in charge.

So when a US service member commits a war crime, we tried them accordingly.

So now granted, we, there have been issues with foreign countries wanting to try uh try us servicemen and we've resisted that we've tried them ourselves.

But no, the, the right venue and the right jurisdiction was the federation because federation laws what was broken, but they're all biased.

Like they all have some, like, not biases but they all like we see the clearly like the, the weight of this fear that they have from the eugenic war that is not so removed to them.

Like even if it's like, it's not at all.

Sorry, go ahead.

Sorry, go ahead.

No, I'm agreeing with you what you're saying it's not far removed for them.

Um Yeah, the, the French still prohibit any descendants of Napoleon Bonaparte from holding public office.

That's true.
That's true.
That's true.
I see you've been waiting forever to go.
I have been, let me, let me let you go in terms of April. He calls out pike.

Well, he calls out pike even though he should have been calling out Nira about the fact he wanted to speak to Uno's character.

He wanted to be cross examined so he could speak in her defense.

Uh But the thing is that Mira did not give him that chance because he was, he was being honest and it's like, it really sucks that his honest opinion is that he had known who she was, that he wouldn't have, you know, sponsored her.

But if Nira had actually, like, behaved like a normal lawyer, he would have spoken to all of the things that una had done over the years and why she had been an exemplary officer.

Um, because, I mean, we find out in, in all of this deal with augments both in this and doctor beer, I presume that it all comes down to exceptionalism and it's always, you know, to the individual, if they're, you know, important enough to, to starfleet to actually like, uh, you know, stay around.

Um, so yes, I've been waiting to say that for a long time.

Nobody has brought up that, that April really wanted to, to speak to speak about and he did it.

He says that's a pike later on, right?

Like would have been, would have been helpful.

Yeah.

Uh, and I really want to say how beautifully put together this entire episode is because courtroom episodes can be really, really dodgy and they really kept this very dynamic.

Um, I particularly like the music in this one.

at one point I messaged mommy and said that it made me cry and she's like that was the point.

Er, yeah.
Um, I, I, again, as a peon, I thought the scene was very, very well acted.

Um, I, it was, it was interesting watching, um, the defense sort of push, uh, April to sort of dig in his heels and become that hypocritical captain who was like, I am, I am the law, I am the law like, you know, um, um, so, iii, I wonder if that's sort of what she wanted, she wanted to see, to show how hypoc obviously it was what she wanted to show the hypocrisy of, um, star and how captains can say, well, one thing and then do another thing.

Um I thought it was a cool scene as a peon. I'm gonna, yeah, I'm no peon here.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna rarely touch on this because uh from, from a peon's point of view, I 100% thought that near a strategy here was to get April's testimony thrown out and show the hypocrisy of Starfleet and to make that board that was sitting up there above everybody look really bad.

I thought it was brilliant because general order one and the prime directive is bullshit, which is why captains break it all the time.

It should be broken.

This genetic modification law shouldn't exist.

That's a whole another point.

This is brilliant because listen, I think we all agree.

Right?

Is, is April wrong for his way of thinking.

Yes.

Is he a bad person?

No.

Right.

Like he, he, I think he still loves and respects uner, right?

Like their friends, same thing with pike.

He was put in a really shitty position, but it was a position that really worked.

I think at the end of the day, you know, at least from also from the public's point of view who are watching this at home because they are was a really brilliant strategy by Neer.

So um I, I know that there's probably other thoughts on this. I must have really important.

Can we move on or do you guys have any other thoughts you want to touch on on this real quick uh quick on the offering three character witnesses.

So speaking of those, the next three witnesses are Spock Laon and NGA, all who have glowing things obviously to say about Una because she fucking rocks.

Um We get on testimony about how Una rescued her and yes, she is related to Khan Spock talks about the moment they met, which is a great reference back to the amazing short Trek Q and A and uh her first day uh his first day on the enterprise as in and then Bega talks about her compassion when it comes to privacy and personal matters, you know, going back to Rukia and keeping her in the transporter buffer while trying to cure her cancer.

Knowing what we know happens later in this episode from, from a legal standpoint, Josh Anari were, were the testimonies important Toni's case.

Uh It's dangerous.

So there's something called character evidence in the law and you cannot, the, the state is prohibited from offering evidence of bad character because they don't wanna show conduct and conformity.

They're in that.

Basically, you have to prove the crime.

You can't just say, isn't this person super bad?

Look at him.

He's squiggly looking.

That's what people think of him.

Everyone thinks he's a criminal, therefore, convict him.

Well, they can't do that.

However, if you put on character witnesses to say good things about you that she's the best, you know, open the door for bad character to come in.

So they're, they're playing a dangerous game that now, granted this supposes that there could be any bad character out there and maybe, uh, has been on the side of the angels her entire life and there's nothing bad that she's ever, ever done and no one to dislike her, but it's, it's a super risky legal strategy to do that.

Uh, so, and my thoughts on this were, um, I agree with Josh, but, uh, I think in this case, it, you know, again, we, we have the benefit of a, of a television show where we can accept what we see is true.

Uh, and the government did not have bad character witnesses to put on.

Um, but, uh, the other aspect here is again, if, if the defense had gone down this route that I mentioned of challenging the law, the government, like, could have still mounted a defense by showing, uh, that, uh, that they had a compelling interest, um, in having this law on the books and enforcing it specifically in, in Ina's case.

Um And if you have these witnesses who go up and explain how she's been nothing but the most impeccable person and officer it would serve to undermine any argument that

the government would have that having una or having someone with, with genetic modifications in star fleet is bad for Starfleet security, um, or is bad for like morale or discipline.

Uh, As another of a nod to like the National Hotel thing.

Uh And if you have that evidence to show that it had, if anything, a salud effect on all of these values that the government would be putting forward is potentially compelling uh government interests uh that that would have really helped.

So I do think that especially because in the benefit of hindsight, Josh, it didn't actually backfire.

Uh uh This turned out to be a good move, still dangerous in actual trial practice, think carefully about it, Hawk, uh the three witnesses, uh three witnesses.

I don't know if the testimony uh was important to nearest case.

The one thing I kept focusing on like was what they weren't saying and that it was, you know, basically, like, when did they know that she was an Hilarion?

Um And I think I love the editing between all their testimony and that, you know, that's one thing I kept like waiting on is, is somebody gonna, is that question gonna get asked?

Uh surprisingly didn't, but, you know, their testimonies about, about her were obviously amazing and that, because she's great and they know her from, like, you know, so many different points of view, like Spock on his first day.

Um, and he brought up the, the music, um, and baga.

Yeah, the about the privacy and how she's, you know, and we know, like, you know, she, she was, she was one of the few that knew about Raka and that and made special like considerations for him and that so that he could, you know, keep trying to save her.

Um Are they important to the case?

I mean, they did establish in that like how indispensable she was to the the them in their daily lives and functions on the ship.

So yeah, they were important Q and a reference. I just liked it.
I listen, everything that everybody said.

Um everybody on the chat is talking about like the canon of like everybody knowing a descendant of Khan.

But then space, they don't know Khan.

It's fine not to mention that that was one star ship coming across the Botany Bay.

And just because, yeah, no, I don't think we've established Kirk as a himbo Spock.

Always freaking lies.

Like he didn't even tell them that we were their parents.

You think they're going to tell that he is gonna tell them like, oh I served with like a descendant of that guy.

That man is a tomb he does not talk, he will not spill. It's like the closest track character from R two D two. I don't know that, man, I don't know them.
I've never seen them.

What?
And I can, what?
What?
No, no, I don't know that man at all.

Like spacey, there's the ready room scene where they're going like he's, he's really familiar like they, they, and then, and then we go like, oh, it is like then it turns out not all the history books were burned, which apparently happened in, in the darkness.

So, well, the Elvin timeline apparently glosses over history, you know, the prime timeline, they knew who Khan was that.

They just, it'd be like actually seeing, oh let's, let's pick on Napoleon again if Napoleon showed up, I couldn't pick him out of a lineup because cameras didn't exist, we'd be going off.

It's a great point. Yeah.

Yeah.

So um yeah, leave Spark alone.

It was fantastic.

I love the thing.

I think it was again a good little like, uh you know, by the way, Q and A, the score was written by Naomi Mema and was the first Star Trek to ever be scored by the woman.

And the rest is fucking history because she's brilliant. She's brilliant.
MC.
Oh I, I love this scene.

I think that um the is a really good character witness to have on, you know, I, I don't know in terms of law, but in terms of dramatics that, you know, if, if you're going to be talking about augmentation, having somebody from Khan's like lineage coming on, seems like, think it would be a good thing.

I mean, it does open up on to maybe some interesting questions about her but uh that doesn't happen until she's with um you know, not on trial.

Um I'd love the mention of Q and A because Q and A is fire and they had great chemistry.

So yes, love it.

Uh Eric, I love the sequence.

I thought it was shot really well.

I thought the editing and music and everything was really well done.

It really felt like a good courtroom scene in a regular TV show.

So it was nice seeing that in uh in Star Trek and I want to see a West Wing version of Star Trek.

Like, yes, I want, I want a whole series. I want a whole series.

Um My wife is a Gilbert and Sullivan actress.

She has done multiple Gilbert and Sullivan shows.

I have done uh backstage and built the sets for it.

We are a Gilbert and Sullivan family.

So any mention of Gilbert Sullivan is welcome in this household, we love it.

It is amazing.

So I loved it just for that.

I have nothing important to add to this except Gilbert and Sullivan in Q and A because again, he should have more, right?

Uh Yes, they should have referenced even though it's in the future Picard and War. Gilbert and Sullivan in insurrection because that scene is the best part of that movie. Um, I'm just glad that I didn't have to sing again.
Yeah.

Right.

Oh, that is, oh, God, let's talk about anybody singing next to Celia was getting, is doomed.

Let's be honest, Mira puts Uda on the stand and asks about her time living on and this is the important part, a federation colony after Arians were given provisional membership into the Federation on the condition that all genetic modifications would cease.

Right.
Very important.

U goes on to tell the tale of her childhood and how genetic modification for some Arians stopped but didn't for others, there seems to be religious implications here that it's part of their traditions and lore um she talks about how for her family, it was tradition and it was part of their, I'm not going to say religion because they didn't say it specifically there but their uh customs, she goes on uh about hiding the rituals, allys who could hide their modifications, did hide them and knew if the Federation ever did find out about them and that they were augmented.

They'd be arrested having this had actually happened to a young boy she knew and he was just 10 years old and was arrested for having modifications by I know they talk about Eric.

The ice cream bar is late.
Don't think I wouldn't have caught it.
I caught it goddamn it, by the way, by the way, Ice Cream Bar for Eric and Nari. Don't hide your cat.
We are an animal friendly show.
There are animals on this show all the time.
Um, that's right.
Yeah.
So a 10 year old boy is arrested here, right.
Um, this, this led to many Arians leaving and we get a hint of this at the beginning.

So they have a whole planet that they moded just, you know, they modded themselves so they could live on, they leave for non federation worlds and those who stayed, were persecuted by those on um federation worlds.

Um you know, stores, not serving Ians.

Uh And then finally just full on like in America and many other countries full on segregation, right?

A Anan city and a non Allan city.

Um because of this una couldn't go to a normal hospital when she breaks her leg, breaking up a fight between an Allan who was being bullied.

She had to go to an Allan doctor in the middle of the night because if she had gone to a normal doctor, they would have seen that her immune system glows and they would have been arrested too.

Um We also learned that during the, the segregation, segregation una and her family went to the non Arian city because they could pass as human.

And then finally we do find out um what we kind of knew Una turned herself in so much

to unpack here, Josh Nari.
What did, what do we think about una testimony here?

High risk because putting a defendant on the stand is, uh, it's the defendant's right in a criminal trial.

Uh, it's gonna open them up to ugly cross examinations.

So they should be very well prepared for someone to come at them with a fire ax.

And I don't know if that prep took place.

It seems like this was a surprise to be called after having been advised not to take the stand.

I have a question, I have a question for you.

Like, if you can like, weave it in, I don't know if you talk about, I don't read the online but they have like this thing like to check that what, you know, it don't be surprised, doesn't mean I'm never not going to nod my head.

The perjury machine.
Do you mean like, uh would that be possible?

Is that legal, like, can, can we be to like AAA lie detector while giving a, I mean, currently not?

No, no.
Uh Yeah, no.

Um uh And there, there are, you know, there are important constitutional rules against like being a witness against yourself.

So like imagine being asked a question in which you might incriminate yourself.

Um Things like that.

Uh It's also at least in, in the American, in the Anglo American legal tradition.

It is a really important prerogative of the jury or if the judge is the fact finder the judge to be able to make credit determinations.

And so the idea that we would allow a machine which could be faulty, could be

tampered with uh to just like flash yellow or red for a lie.
Um seems highly problematic why even have the finders of fact there in the first place.

Um They could just make the legal determinations and then everybody goes, I'm sorry, did we assume that having their hand on that was what that was?

Because I didn't, I was gonna say that implication. I just thought that was like I got the same.

So I think everybody was like a agreeing that like because when she was going to speak about like a pike, she looked at the thing and everybody looked at it and I was like my life right over my head.

She reminded him that he could perjure himself while looking after it was like here is the thing.

They did not say it explicitly.

So like there is, there is some wiggle room there.

OK.

Sorry.

No, that's a great point.

Super dangerous but necessary.

They, and this is again the lawyer and me because of the asylum argument is bonkers.

So we I have to put that aside.

Oh, I'll get to that, Josh, don't worry if I were the prosecutor, I would move to throw all of it out because it's non responsive.

It's not relevant because the issue is she lied on her application period. End of story.
It's a strict liability crime.

We don't need to talk about any of this on why, because they're not challenging the constitutionality of that law, which would have been a more interesting discussion and I'll, we'll get into that at the end.

So I think it's high risk and if you're gonna make an asylum argument, you should let your client know in advance because they're, they, are we talking about closing argument with this now as well?

But it's coming, it's coming.
I, I think um other people have already said this caveat. I do want to put out the caveat.
I think for both me and Josh that like this law is terrible. Uh Like, you know, we have to Yeah.
Yeah.

And like, um, you know, all of our empathy goes to una in this circumstance and like her testimony is powerful and it's moving and if it's not moving, then I don't know what you're doing.

But, but, but I agree with Josh that in order for this to be, to be relevant, you have to have like made the motion for Asym, although we'll explain why that didn't really make sense.

Um So unfortunately, it's, yeah, if, if, if you, if I were the Star Fleet prosecutor here now is the time for that relevance subjection.

Um Because, you know, you're, you're kind of like how the, the, the prosecution isn't allowed to just put on a parade of bad character witnesses.

Similarly we, we don't want to just let people tell emotional stories to try to gain the sympathy of a jury if it's not relevant to some fact that's in dispute.

Um Granted this is a, a court martial with, with the tribunal, but the finders of fact are not supposed to just be there to decide who they like best and how they want the outcome to be.

They're supposed to find and, and make determinations on disputes of factual questions.

Did this happen?
Did this not happen?
Do I believe this witness?

Do I not?

Uh And so, you know, yes, it, it's unfortunately not particularly relevant to legal prison but beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Her testimony was just devastating and it exposed like the hypocrisy of the law and the Federation's kind of backing of it like beautifully uh in the fact that they, this blanket law, you know, which is never really specific, it just says augment augmentations and that, which can mean a lot of different things, you know, the, the law that they said they set to protect themselves against another rise of like the A K or, you know, all the other ones that, you know, led to, to earth's, you know, greatest conflict um are still in effect and created a case system with, in their own backyard.

Uh And that, and a culture that just, you know, was justified in like writing graffiti on the walls, you know, augments and that and, and keeping them scared enough that they couldn't even reach out for medical attention when they needed it properly.

And that so it was, it was devastating in the fact and the like, it could not have fallen on, on the, on deaf ears on the judges.

And that to realize not at all as a federation and that they were the ones, you know, responsible for this, this part of the episode ended me like I was, I was already like into a good episode.

I was like into it because, you know, great acting. I was eating it up.

But the, I think it's the opening scene with uh where we see young una with the broken leg, right?

Uh That was so powerful to have these like explanation of the adults that went through that.

And I mean, you cannot not draw with everything that's happening right now when we see um states that um you know, um um threaten to take Children uh off their family and um if they bring them to the hospital and that they see, for example, a family uh with a trans child and that they will call CPS and take them away.

And you know, there are so many implications like abortion if you're going for an abortion and, or a miscarriage and that you're too scared to go to the hospital because you're scared of being prosecuted or put in jail while you're already going through a

medical emergency that like that like ended me. I'm already scared.

I'm gonna tell you as a black woman, I'm already super scared to like do any medical procedure.

I'm like training my husband to throw candles at hospital if like anything is wrong with me.

Uh um the state of um maternity care for black women in the States is absolutely awful horrible.

It's worse than like countries with no medical uh um facilities.

Um, so uh that resonated with me because being scared of going to the hospital and being like, I, I don't know what's going to happen to me is something I learned here.

To be honest, I'm really sorry, fellow Americans, not fellow because I'm not American but uh um friends.

Um and, and I think you can see it like I, I do think that it, this episode came out at a I would perfect with quotation marks perfect in the worst possible.

Yeah.

Where these resonate with so many categories of the population being a woman and not being listened in the hospital, being a black person, being a trans folk.

Like it, it, it's too true.

And I think uh Rebecca Romain had an incredible delivery of that, I guess monologue um her explanation and, and you see how the choice she made were hard on her, on herself.

Like to, to choose to leave hidden and, and adult. Oh, that like they could pass.

Damn, that was an incredible line that they could pass and they chose, uh, they chose to pass.

Um, I mean, this is again relevant to so many, like minorities and uh persecuted um, people in the world.

If you can pass, you're gonna take the chance.

And I know that you always have people like, um, uh who's gonna be, she cannot pass and she didn't want to and will judge you and your family for passing.

But, you know, sometimes you're tired of fighting and you want to pass.

Like you can refer that to so many moments in the, in history, like during the holocaust people that could pass and just passed, you know, um terrible time, calls for terrible decisions and it's horrible that that episode was so relevant to so many people in 2023 MC.

Hold on, hold on.

I I MC if you don't mind, I'm gonna just because Nora mentioned it and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go off on this a little bit because I need to.

And um Holocaust mentioned I'm a Jew.
We're not 100 years removed from the Holocaust.

Uh In 2018, my son was born and the minute that not the minute but a couple of days out of, of when he was in the, we went and had his naming ceremony at our synagogue.

And as he was being named, literally the, as he was being named the Pittsburgh synagogue shootings were happening and for the sake of privacy, I won't say anything about details.

But people in that room had people that were lost and were friends with.

Unknown.

Ok.

And then Uvalde happened and I was crying for days dropping my kid off, my son off at a school, right?

Not just for school because there was a school shooting but because he was also going to a preschool that was at a synagogue.

And because I'm Jewish and Cecily, my daughter just finished her second year of Sunday school and had a Shabbat.

And because of everything that's been happening lately, we've had to have officers inside of the synagogue.

So all of this is very relevant and very important.

And like giraffe said, it could not have come at a more perfect yet horrible fucking time. And this monologue hits me really fucking hard.

And yeah, Eric Summers and Chat uh has mentioned that Jessie gender talked in her video about um uh the passing privilege that comes with being a trans person.

So yes, this is a very, it it can apply very much to a lot of different um discriminated against groups.

One thing I would like to point out that I don't think has been brought up yet when Una is talking about the little boy who was arrested for being uh modified.

She specifically said it was her best friend's cousin and there is a long shot of Nira, it was her cousin that was arrested.

Um Now, the thing that I would like to actually talk about during this is um uh how much I fucking hate Earth in the Federation.

Um There is an implication in all of this, not only is it religious practice, but that allys had to do this to survive.

It was implied in this episode, it was applied, implied in ghosts of ally, allys modified themselves, not just for tradition, but because the planets they were living on were so harsh.

If they did not, they would die earth. Like they say it over and over again.

The whole reason why they have all of these rules against augments is because of the eugenics wars and Khan, the eugenics wars happened well, before the federation, it was something that just happened on earth and it is something that affects the entire federation, the entire federation, which is hundreds and hundreds of planets.

Why is earth so fucking special that its history is, you know, making all of these other planets having to, you know, deny their history.

Yeah.
Great point.
Yeah.
Er, yeah, this um this, well, I, I think this, this, it's heartbreaking this, this scene, right?

Especially as like Josh says, the people of color, like it's, it really made me think about the last, not just the last three years, but especially the last three years with the anti Asian um the COVID fear introducing, right?

Um And when, when we talk, when she starts talking about the people that pass it, it makes me think of my kids because so often I've told this story before that I, I get, I get followed at stores.

It's weird.

I wear golf shirts.

I wear, I wear khaki pants.

When I'm out, I, I just would button down shirts.

There's no reason I should be followed at stores.

And when I'm with my kids, they get follow their stories too.

But my wife is white.

So when they're with her, they leave them alone and that's heartbreaking because I know she's not gonna be there all the time with them.

So hearing this and that the fact that it's still going on breaks my heart.

Um Yeah, and, and I have to say like giraffe and Eric, like you guys have it the worst, right?

I'm the una in this situation.
I don't, if I didn't tell anybody I was Jewish, no one fucking knows. Right?
I choose to put it out there.
Yeah.
MC.
Same, right?

Like, well, there, there, there's uh points for me because I'm, I'm biracial ambiguous and people usually don't know what to do with me.

So no, but then they hear an accent and they're like, we don't know how to be racist to her, but I definitely have privilege in this situation, right?

Because I, I can be the a here I can pass off. Um I don't look Jewish for one.
My blood isn't Jewish, right?

Like I was, my mom was adopted and raised Jewish and I was raised Jewish by my Jewish family who were in, you know, survived the camps and I have family who died in the camps, but I don't look Jewish, you know, so, and like I would like to bring up, sorry.

Uh oh, I was just gonna go like the fear inducing like segregation that they did. Like it's happened so often.

Like you think of the Japanese internment camps in the States during World War Two that happened in the Philippines during the Japanese occupation.

Like it's just, it's just over and over again and you hear it and it's just, it's terrible, but just in terms of the, you know, having the privilege of it, not, you know, being invisible in some ways.

And I think that this is Uno's point why she comes out is that it is a, it is a privilege that it had, but it is also a disadvantage because you're not being able to live as you're authentic self.

You know, there, there is that, you know, the, the, the the fear of I can't be honest.

So I, I think that's kind of like the whole issue with, who knows.

Um Let's move on to Paso's cross-examination, right?

He tries to turn everything into a much bigger conspiracy, attempted to indict Pike and Captain Pike and the crew of the front of conspiracy, charge of conspiracy very loudly.

Um I, I feel like we all know the answer but I'll ask anyway, was was this the right part?

And NORI, I want, I want to start with you because when we last spoke a little under a year ago, you were convinced Captain Pike would probably be, be safe here.

And, and for the most part, he, he is right.
But it, it turns out that might not have been the case if pia got his way.

Let's go.

Let's go.

Uh No, I was right.

I'm standing by it.

So, uh what, what's, what's not being charged here?

So I think the only thing that's really being charged here is the uh the seditious conspiracy, what they're not charging and they're not super clear, but it's a TV show.

So I'll forgive them.
They're charging him under the other UCMJ provisions that I mentioned before.

Uh when we first talked about this way back when uh which were accessory after the fact, I think that UCMJ article 78 I think, yes.

And uh and then the catch all article 92 which is like a failure to follow uh obe an an order regulation.

Um uh he's fine under either of those.

The UCMJ Manuel says that you, you know, mere failure to report a crime that you know occurred doesn't count for article 78.

And like point of fact, he never actually gets in the way literally of Starfleet trying to enforce this provision against una like he objects verbally, but he doesn't stop them from arresting her.

He doesn't hide evidence that she's a, uh, so there's nothing that they can get him on 78.

And then for 92 everyone knows that that's a catch, all that carries almost no penalties.

Uh, it, it wouldn't, it would never stand up if that's the only thing that you're charging him with and it would at most be a slap on the wrist and then when it comes to the seditious conspiracy, it fails for all of the same reasons that I talked about with Una like they put on zero evidence nor could they, that uh that Captain Pike wanted to overthrow the Federation uh by not turning in his first officer.

Um So there's, there's no way Captain Pike is fully in the clear, even if uh this charge could be added live during his testimony at someone else's trial, Josh, you have anything else you wanna add to that?

Like you're rolling your eyes a bit.

Yeah, I, I agree with Nari and it's, it's bonkers and it also highlights the high, the high risk of having una testify because she can impl implicate Pike.

And last thing I want to say is he could have pleaded the fifth if he really wanted. I was going to say no one actually pleaded the fifth in this trial.
The fifth still exist.
It does, it does, it does we have no Federation laws.

I'm just going to throw like one little anecdote.

So there's so many like American Legal Show on TV, in France, that judges are pretty pissed at people trying to plead the fifth in France and calling judges your honor when you the president of the court in France.

And in kidding me, the real problem in the French legal system is that people are so much fed American legal show that they think it's the law in France and they're like, this is not a thing here.

Like you don't need a warrant to enter anybody's home.

For example, you have to tell the police, do you have a warrant?

And Boris is like, there's no warrant in France.

Like so just side notes giraffe, this is how American law because the law is just everybody who thinks that it is.

I knew American law better than my own country law because of TV.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Um That also deeply troubles me because the depiction of American law is really bad.

Yeah, but people were like, I'm going to plead the fifth and I have friends who are lawyers and friends and they're just like, you do not imagine the thing that our clients like tell us and we're like, that's not a thing.

This is again, not a thing, not a thing.

Uh very, very briefly, Pasok's trial.
I mean, I'm so tired, Pasok's cross examination, his cross examination.

I don't know if it was meant to be like incriminate una and get her or a pike and that, I think it has a lot to do with, uh, a certain kind of, it was surprising, like, I remember back in enterprise vuls had a bias towards, like humans and that being out in space because it's kind of what I wanted to mention earlier, but I couldn't really talk about yet.

Yeah.

And it, it feels more like that is basically attacking, like star fleet and basically ships run with human, you know, crews and that, and the, that air of permissiveness and that, that seems to be going on and that, and how it's not as professional as it should be is, it feels like his attack on pike and the system comes from that rather than any worry that, like, you know, there is a sedition or a plot or a conspiracy going on among them to overthrow Star fleet.

Yeah, I didn't like that guy.
I, and I wanted to know, like, how can you be bold with such eyebrows? I was like, what's the, what's the skin care like, what's going on in it like? Right.

I was like, uh, I want to know like that, you know, that that guy went to a special planet to have like eyebrow implants because he want to be very Vulcan and see everybody like, like Vulcans don't value their hair per se but like the eyebrows is like the peak masculinity.

So no wonder, no wonder Spock despised them so much. Yeah.

And I was like, I know why Spock doesn't like you, you logic extremist over there, like with your fake eyebrows, like it's a two pay eyebrow.

Um, yeah, try to top that FC.

Come on the song proves to me that the, um, the stereotype of Vulcans as just perfectly logical is wrong.

It's that Vulcans are dramatic little bitches. They love their drama.

They do, they do even Spock.

Like if there's one thing that all Vulcans have in common is drama, I mean, have you seen like that wall that he has with the ID IC in his quarters?

In uh which one is the Voyage Hall?
It's, it's rather sequence and Star Trek six, I think and Star would be scholars.

You like they are dramatic bees like you know that dramatic bitches eric, dramatic bitches, dramatic bitches.

It really felt personal that, that attack on Pike because get the cap of the, that's all I got. But I do think that there's something between like him and Sari and Spock.
I think there's some like internal drama.
Everybody is there in the personal vendetta in that court.

To be honest, including that dude, I'm, I'm convinced he is on the personal vendetta against Spike and it's something that has to do with Spock because Spock failed to stop it.

And now he's an officer in that ship and I'm sorry, because I hand on it.

I'm like, I think it's a mess, right?

I think it's Spock and I think it's, I, I'm, I'm not just saying this to be funny.

I legitimately think, like, he didn't get to be captain of the enterprise.

There's like some kind of bias there.

I have a question for illegal geeks.

Um um This because I said this attack felt really personal was the point.

Wait was his point to have this whole trial so that he could go after pike, like, because would that have been his endgame?

I think so.

Oh, I mean, uh there could have been also, I think an objection here for relevance since conspiracy hadn't been charged.

And you're not, you're not supposed to use the trial for somebody else as essentially like an investigatory tool in order to gather evidence against another person.

Uh So if, if it was the point, it would be extremely improper. There could have been some very valid upheld objections here. Um And like I said, pike could have, you know, pleaded the fifth.

That doesn't mean necessarily that I think I am guilty of something, but you can plead the fifth because you think that this his prosecutor is asking you questions in order to try to incriminate you.

Uh And so I think that would have been a perfectly justified use of it, but it shows that they don't have the no, no, no, no, no, no.

So I, I honestly think and, and sorry, I interrupt the question, my, my personal thoughts on this scene is that the minute that Pao went on this line of questioning with Una is when Nira knew that like not even closing, closing arguments, this is when Nira knew they won the case, he went completely off the rails and went completely against the case.

And Nira didn't need to advise him to take the fifth because they, that she knew that they had won already personally.

That's what I think.

But Jeff, maybe you're right because they also have lie detectors on the witness.

Yeah.

So it's so weird to be like Pete the fifth, but you have a lie detector under your butt like it's, I do think it means that it doesn't exist anymore.

I it it's such a fundamental right that in our system and I will, I'll take this position the the laboring or for the, you know, Zeph co co, Zeph Cochran was from the United States give Archer as the glue for the reason that the Federation happened.

The fact that you might have an American centric legal system and rights is because of Archer and how he without him, as we saw with the temporal Cold War, the Federation would not have happened.

So because of those factors, I think the fifth amendment in a different form still exists as does the first, as does the third about the quartering of soldiers, they would probably have a very different second amendment because no one needs a photon torpedo launcher in their garage.

And do you really need that face rifle?
Do you?
Uh, so January January rifle, that's all I want in my garage.

But again, the concept of the 5th and 6th amendments and the eighth against cruel and unusual punishment and they would probably have a version of the 10th for rights, you know, going back to the states that each planet would have their own traditions and laws that would still exist in those planets.

So I do think because of it's not just like the Roddenberry influence. So um real quick, sorry to interrupt you.

Um For Michael Quan, I guess there is a book somewhere or somewhere that says that the seventh guarantee of the constitution of the United Federation of Planets protected all Federation citizens from being compelled to give self incriminating testimony in legal proceedings.

So it's not the fifth, it's the seventh.
Ok.
Hey, by the way, Michael Kan, I should state is also a lawyer.
Oh, hey, good to know.
Good to know a twist.
Not, they don't see that as a threat but a good thing.
So uh cool which, which makes those lie detectors then super suss under. I don't personally think that they're lie detectors but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm basing my, my, my, my theory that not my theory but my comments that the seventh or the fifth exists in the Federation based off that it exists in a lot of other sci-fi that we watch and it was the fact that it was a battle star and we see, um Chief use it during his trial.

So they saying that this was a line from the drum head. Oh, there you go.
That's perfect.

Boom.
Simon Tarsus.
Great courtroom episode should have known that should have done more research. My bad.
Um Let's move on.
Oh, sorry.
Do you have one more thing?
No, let's move on to the closing arguments.

And the verdict, Paok argues as a Vulcan would una is guilty, the crew hit it and that finding her so is the logical thing to do because because logic, uh Nira finally shows her hand and plays the asylum card using all of una testimony as evidence that from a young age all the way into her time as Star Fleet Una was requesting asylum for persecution and finding that asylum within Star Fleet.

Nira asks the court to uphold that law because she's stating that Captain Pike granted her that asylum.

Um And while Starfleet says that the anti genetic laws may be antiquated, they are still there for a good reason.

Una is granted asylum and found not guilty of all charges.

What did we think about this conclusion?

And legal geeks, was it legally sound?

No, it's wrong and, and uh the defense attorney should be disbarred or taken up for a disciplinary hearing because she lies to the court.

You can't do that.

You have a duty of candor to the court to tell the truth and make an argument that's based in law or in fact.

And she assumes facts, not in evidence by saying that Pike gave Una asylum that is never established at any point of the story out.

It's a giant inductive leap because what Una said to Pike is never discussed and you do

not have a hearsay statement or a nonstop pike, you cannot have uh uh an out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted.

So you need pike to establish that fact.

Moreover, you just don't do surprising and say your honor.

We, this was all asylum.

It's like that's not in the jury instructions.

There was no briefing on that.

That's the sort of thing that would have been done in pretrial and could have knocked out the case from the beginning.

So the fact that they went to this extreme and you have a lawyer skirting if not outright lying to the court is highly problematic.

So II I was just cringing because that's not how asylum works.

So, yeah, I wanna take that specific part because, well, uh well, obviously I am quite happy that the the tribunal rules in ina's favor and I want to get at the end of this, I'll try to be as brief as possible.

I want to get at the end of this ti I think how they could have done this. Um This, this made no legal sense.
I'm really sorry.

And I say that with all love for the, this show and this episode, um which is, you know, there, there is, of course, an actual, uh there are actual laws that, that govern how we grant asylum people can petition for it.

And it's a big thing throughout all of Star Trek um that like, you know, star fleet vessels are essentially interpreted as being starfleet uh a Federation soil.

So if a person sets foot there, they get to apply for asylum or request asylum, it's a really big deal.

It is not however a an affirmative defense to any of the crimes that she's been accused of.

Uh nor can you apply for asylum from law enforcement.

So I want to give the most charitable interpretation here uh which could be that, you know, she has been threatened with uh exile, which I'm gonna interpret to be like a form of deportation that like you're not allowed to have genetic modifications and be in the Federation.

Um In which case that you, you could definitely apply for asylum. I'm saying that you are, you are fleeing persecution elsewhere.
I get to stay in the Federation, but that's what asylum is about.

It's getting um essentially the right to stay permanent residents, things like that uh in, in this place in the Federation or in the US uh because you've been persecuted uh for, for being a member of a protected class or for your political views somewhere else.

It is not a defense if you're being charged with, for example, in this case, fraudulent enlistment or appointment, um, that you can say that, uh except like I've said, it could be these, a lot of these facts could have been very relevant when it came to an actual challenge to this law, um as, as unlawful under article something or another of the federation that we don't have, I think canonically.

Um But presumably because it's like we've been talking about these are core rights.

I think they're not, they're not just like, you know, artifacts of the American legal system, but core rights that you shouldn't be discriminated against by your government that you should have a right to uh practice your religion.

Uh And so presumably those rights exist somewhere and if they had brought that challenge, um a lot of these things would be super relevant uh including like I've said, you know, whether or not the government has any interest at all in preventing her from being in star fleet, um or whether she's owed an accommodation for her religious practices.

And so the way that I think this could have ended while still keeping in can and the fact that this regulation remains on the books um is, is at least two ways.

The first is that the defense could have brought that challenge to the law um have made the super compelling case um bringing in all of the things that we've talked about where, uh, you know, throughout American history, but also even in Federation history, although I guess we haven't gotten there, but for example, in a measure of a man, they make the same allusions to our expanding views of what people are and what rights they're owed.

You could have had a really beautiful passionate defense arguing that this law was unjust and unlawful.

Um And then you could have the prosecution have a little dramatic scene uh where they're discussing how they're about to lose.

The tribunal could have decided they need some time to consider and the prosecution uh could have decided even for bad reasons that they want to dismiss it because they want this regulation to stay on the books.

And they realize the facts are so bad for them in this case that the tribunal is about to rule it unconstitutional and the pro government sometimes does that.

Uh and so that could have been a really dramatic end to this.

It would have been in Ina's favor, but really explained why this terrible law stays on the books.

You could have also had the tribunal rule in her favor, but only as applied to una so because of all the facts that are presented in that specific case, that show that una and her particular modifications could serve no possible threat to the Federation or any of the interest that the government tried to put forward.

They could have ruled exactly similar to how they did, which is what they were hinting at within the facts of this case.

Uh, we fined for una but it wouldn't have been, it wouldn't have been on grounds of granting her asylum so much to unpack here.

What did you think about this?

Well, according to the legal geeks, this sucks.

So now this ending sucks.

Goodbye.

I don't know, like the a case for asylum, I could totally make, I could see that being the case for this, that she came, she came out to Captain Pike and said I am an ilium.

Captain Pike didn't immediately reported to Star fleet and that or send her off and that it's like, oh no, he made a decision that like you're staying no matter what you are so valuable and needed here, you are staying.

Um you know, there is a case to be argued there and that, I mean, like look at if you look back at like uh TNG and pen pals and that, you know, with Sargen and that her little cry for help was that cause enough to break the prime directive it and I would have said it would be right.

But like, yeah, I know, I, I think at some point there's got to be some sort of like a, you know, discretion in each individual case.

You know, whoever is, is the one making the decision they have to, their judgment has to be relied on, you know, it's like, it's what they're out there to do, explore the galaxy.

Meet new people, you know, they, they pick the right people to do this and that they have to have a little discretion to do.

So.

Yeah.

Draft.

Whoa.

Ok.

So, um, I didn't really understand how, like they played the SI M part again because I was like, what it has to do with anything.

Um, but it did resonate with me because my father was an asylum seeker and a political refugees.

Um And so where his brother and his sister uh later, so I grew up in a house with people who had seek asylum in France.

And my father was still in pending of waiting like his French um citizenship when I was born.

So our cluster because when I was born, my father was not a citizen, you know.

Um and I do remember um my uncle and my aunt who um were doing the asylum uh paperwork when I was a kid.

Um And, you know, it's something that very often people forget is the thing that there are a lot of people that need asylum and we're in real danger and I would not be here if it was not for the sm laws, like I would just not exist.

Um My father left uh his country with literally what he was wearing on himself like that is all he had and my uncle and my um my aunt left their country aboard uh a boat that was made to carry animals and they drifted at sea for months until they were able to be rescued.

And then getting them back to France was saying to my parents who were a doctor

without borders.

If you don't support them, give them some money, who had some ties and help them to get out of refugee camps to be able to seek asylum.

So there's all laws that, like resonated with me because I know how important they are. For so many people, they are life changing, not life changing, they're life saving.
Um So, yeah, I, I it was important to me.
The other thing that really struck me is that well, it's ok because she's excellent.

And, you know, I, mm, this whole thing, she's an incredible officer. So she should not be prosecuted.

No, even if she were the, the, the poorest and the, the least efficient and the least providing of anything, even if she was a, like we see it with Simon.

Simon Tosses on drumhead.

Even if you're a nobody, it is not ok to prosecute you una should not get a pass because she's an excellent.

And that resonated again with me because, you know, I got a lot of passes because I'm educated, I have many degrees.

So, you know, I speak several languages. So you are not like the others.

The number of time that I've heard that in my life that I get passes because I'm light skin.

Like, there's a huge thing about colorism.
I mean, again, everybody sees that episode through the prism of their own oppression.

But like colorism, you know, like, oh, I'm light skinned so, you know, I get a pass, I have degrees so I get a pass.

I'm fine in the US. So I get passes.

Um, and I, I do think that I was a bit disappointed that finally she get all this because she's the first officer of the Enterprise.

She should get all this even if she was the lowest of the lower decker.

And it, I know people were mad at this, but I do think that it's important to see that because that is how the world goes and it's a criticism of it.

I didn't take it as a, oh, see, that is how things should be done.

It is how things are done and there's a nod at it because at the end when Nira leaves and like just rip her hands and just goes, I'm like, yes, she won the case.

But the fact that it didn't change anything to the law is very important because sometimes that's what it is and a lot of time that's what it is and it's about a person and it didn't impact, it, impact the people around her, but it didn't change the law.

And unfortunately sometime, well, that's just just what you get.

Like my dad got as, but his, his parents died of hunger.

And is that fair?

No, my, my, my, a lot of my aunts and my, my cousin died of like, very curable things, you know, because they were in a war torn country.

But I'm here and did it change anything that my father got asylum? It changed things for me.
It change things for him, you know.

Uh, it changed things for his students, for the people he helped but sure it didn't solve the war crisis and the war thing and the world is like that if you expect, I do like that Star Trek for one didn't go like full like and we changed the law and the Federation became like great.

Sometime it's bleak and sometimes it's about one person and one situation. Great point.
Yeah.
MC.

Uh OK, I, I have, we've established, I am not a lawyer, I am a writer, I am a writer and

this is so emotional and so beautiful and I fucking all of it.
It worked so well for me was crying buckets while watching list.

Uh But there is uh one thing that I would like to bring up and that's in all of this with the asylum.

Um I do think that we're actually looking at two different sets of laws because you have Starfleet law and you have Federation Law and what una is actually seeking asylum from is Federation law and she is seeking asylum with Starfleet.

Um Now I don't exactly know how everything works, but basically, I feel like this whole asylum argument is uh Nira basically saying that una is being persecuted by the Federation and by revealing who she was, uh even on a Starfleet form that she would be persecuted.

So it, um she, that, that is how I feel like the whole argument was going, I don't know if it's legal.

I don't know how it exactly works.

But for me, for the, you know, the heart, my big, my, my shrunken black heart heart, it works for me.

I like I, I as a, as a viewer as just a casual viewer that knows nothing.

This, it, it was super emotional every time I've seen the scene, it's made me tear up if, um I, I think it's beautifully acted.

I think it's beautifully shot.

The music.

Goddamn it now.

Oh my God sequence is, is beautiful and it, it kills me every single time.

And I, it works for now that now that I know more things I'm gonna look at it.

It just makes things really interesting to figure out how it actually works in the Federation.

I'm really looking forward to watching this after hearing everything from this podcast. Like it's Yeah.

Yeah, but I, but I am gonna go and I will very much perhaps I am not a lawyer, but as far as watching a TV show and watching Patel's reactions to reading the law in the book, Captain Pike does grant una asylum that when on duty and in these extreme circumstances, when a ship is not home, that captains much like Admiral April did as captain of the enterprise has to make decisions on the fly.

When UNA tries to resign in ghost of Alya and says, I'm resigning my commission. I withheld this information.
I'm Alyan, he's going and he says, I don't care who you are.
You're the best first officer in the fleet, you're staying.

He made that decision, right?
He granted her asylum in, in that situation.

And again, all that needed to do, they weren't at port, so they couldn't make the decision, then they're at port now.

And the decision was made from a TV point of view and science fiction, it works perfectly for me.

And I, I know that's not the law, but I think it actually works really well when we're talking about Star Trek.

So that's where I'm at.

Um final thoughts.

And if we could be brief because we do need to wrap this one up.

So I'll say this one of the Comic Con San Diego Comic Con panels we pitched this year was to do a mock trial on this.

That was sadly rejected.
But yeah, they boo boo, you booing the fact that their panel got rejected.

I know I know I followed the story, but we have two other ones and they're gonna rock and if you're there.

Stay tuned.
So this is how I would have attacked this doing a mock trial.

One during the US civil war, women dis disguised themselves as men to fight. They weren't thrown out.
It's like Becky is a good shot at killing those traitors keeper.

Uh, in 1993 100 and 32 years after the civil war started, we had the first female combat pilots, first naval aviator to be in a combat role because the first ones were back in the seventies and non combat roles was named uh Kara Holt Green.

And I often wonder if the name Kara was used in Battlestar Galactica.

To honest because she, she did die four months after getting assigned to the carrier on a crash landing.

Uh, you had African Americans in the military since the beginning.

But in the civil war, you had all African American regiments led by white officers.

You then had segregation in the military.

So through World War two, you had African American service members who were limited to duty to being porters or cooks.

But one of those cooks and was named Doris Miller who at Pearl Harbor operated a machine gun like he'd been trained at it and shot down Japanese attacking planes.

We are naming one of the Gerald Ford aircraft carriers after him.

You had the prohibition on gay and lesbian service members and then that more worse into, don't ask, don't tell which was a way to weed out anyone who wanted to serve our country to protect our country because of their sexual orientation.

So just in, in looking at what we have, we have a history of people wanting to defend the United States and we excluded them for stupid reasons.

This prohibition on augments falls into any of those categories, whether it's women serving in front line uh capacity, uh African Americans being able to serve with everybody else and people of who are gay or lesbian, being able to serve openly as well, we, we've come along the way and that's how I would have attacked us and I do think it's a good episode but man, the lawyer in me had had some serious what the moment uh I, I just wanted to add like it's funny because you know about the Foreign Legion Legion in France.

Have you heard of this or it is?

Yeah.

So it's a, it's a Corp in like in the army where basically anybody can enroll and even if you're not French and they don't ask you who you are, they don't even ask you your real name.

Like you can write whatever you want and you can serve.

And then once you've done serving, you get French citizenship or you can have solution for anything you've done like stuff like this.

Like they don't, I want to know they're like shady people, not shady people, but they have characters in the foreign nation which is you know, interesting when you compare like to the hotel, uh segregation in the army in the US.

When like friends are like, yeah, we go there.

We don't want even to even know your name.

You know, we don't even know like, what's your citizenship?

We don't care.

Um Beautiful episode.

I have to say that.

I, I'm gonna rewatch, I watched it four times.

I think youtube, I'm going to rewatch it like two or four or three or like seven times more.

Yeah, I was saying this to Julian right before we started recording.

Uh I know that this is going to be one of those go to episodes for me to feel better.

This is kind of be up there with like uh uh uh trials and tribulations and bounds of terror, which I know is a weird one to put into that group.

But all of these like, really, really great episodes that just like lift me up and, and this one in particular.

And I think it's really weird that like my top three episodes of strange new worlds are this one and two episodes that don't take place in regular continuity because it's the Elysium Kingdom and uh quality of mercy.

So it speaks a lot to how good this episode it it is that my, my feelings about where

things are going, you know, he's good.

He's like you compare this to like drum head and we never know what happened to Simon to, we don't even know what's the outcome of that thing, like, is stealing softly easy, like, taking back to, like, what happened to that kid?

Like, we never know.
It's all about picado his speeches and, like, I want to know what happened to the kid. Like, what's the kid?

And I like to like to see what happened to and, like, we can follow that person and we can actually understand what is going to be the, the repercussion of the trial on that person staying in.

And that is something I want to know.
Yeah, I agree.
Any other final thoughts?
I guess I will offer just one closing thought.
I don't have that much to add because everyone has said really wonderful things. I did want to just add that.

Uh I think that as, as giraffe was saying, you know, the fact that this kind of ends on maybe not the most triumphant note, um, is still in some ways uplifting in the sense that because like, we know that we know that the story of the Federation continues, um, and that, you know, eventually, like rights get granted to Androids and all these other things.

And it's a useful reminder, um, that it is a long and continuous journey to live up to ideals.

And I don't mean that just for American ideals, I think some of these ideals are more universal for, for free humans.

Um, but that it is a long journey to live up to those ideals.
And it's, it's, yeah, that's all I've got to say.
So you would say that it's a long road getting from there to here. You beat Eric to it.

I, I was seeing him, like, just shut up. Oh my God.
Oh my God.
God.

Other than that, it's just like Trek is.

Trek is always at its best when it's people talking and, and like discussing things And I love these episodes.

And this is definitely one of the best star Trek episode for me.

If not, did anybody talk about the, the whole women crew that it's written by women, directed by women and everybody made a woman and it's pretty much all women talking to each other the entire episode for most of it.

Not about men, it pass it and then some, it's an a plus, the measure of a woman, the measure of a woman.

Uh Josh, you had final thought.

Uh John Burn did a comic series where uh number one is a Commodore and commander of her own uh constitution class ship.

And it's, it's fun because they're wearing the motion pitcher era uniforms, but the ship hasn't gone through refit.

So it's still original series looking, check that out. It's, it's, he did.
I'm definitely gonna read that.
That's awesome.

It's, it's, it's a good run. It's a very good run. Speaking of good runs. This was a great episode.

Let's rate this one out.
Of 10.
Court Martial Bells.
We will go in the reverse order. Eric, your rating and youtube Chat. Give us your ratings as well.

10 easy for me.

10, I love it.

Emotional, beautifully acted, written, directed, music.

Awesome.

Yep.

MC easiest 10 I've ever given for a range of New Orleans.

Nice.

That's awesome.

Hawk.

Uh, this is an easy 10 for me.

Uh, pacing writing.

Everything's great.

Obviously, there's so there's not a lot of, there's some inaccuracies in the legal procedure, but this replaces measure of a man for me.

It's the best courtroom episode of Star Trek Giraffe. Uh 10.
The costume were amazing.
The music was amazing.

The emotion was dear. The message is here. Classic track.
Let's go.

I'm gonna have to say eight minutes because I mean valid. Yeah, it's great television and it's great performances.
It really is.

I it's just that the, a couple of points because I think that they, if you know, if they, they talked to me or Josh, we could have helped them come up with a, a better version of the story that arrived at the same emotional places.

Legal advisors are paramount are listening.

I mean, they don't listen to their, most of the series, don't listen to their science advisor except for so don't have your your hopes up.

Eight.

I concur with these.

I loved the episode.

I loved watching it last night.

They, it's well directed.

It's well scored.

All of those issues.

I just, the, my vein came out of my neck with a bunch of the, what the heck moments with the law.

So like that's something I, I can't get past. Uh, but I, I didn't enjoy it.

So I'll give it eight bells because you can only have eight bells in a watch unless it's New Year's Eve when you go to 16.

Ok.

I don't do math.

So that made no sense to me.

But II, I agree.

56, 780, the Jazz over on youtube.

He gives it an 8.8.

Colin gives it a 10 out of 10 Eric Summers gives it a 10 Michael Kwon gives it nine out of 10 sustained objections.

Maggie Lake gives it a nine.
Tara is 6.5 gavels out of 10 Marty, a 10 out of 10 easy Trek Trekking Wayner at 10 rut. Parakeet to 10 Julian, a 10 out of 10.
This might have been the pods first consecutive.
All the crew members giving it a 10.
Maybe somebody fact check it because of us is a lawyer.
Like you would be like, uh all that, all that knowledge.
Speaking of, let's get to the subspace to poll.
This is a very long outline also.
Like where is it?
10 pages, 10 pages.
I was so sorry.
Um Who wants to take the poll?
Who wants to get it?
All right.
So we asked Trek Twitter what they thought of?

Episode 202 at Astra per Espera. And this is what they had to say.

80% said number one, 13% said buy the book, 7% said general order 1.5 and zero percent said guilty.

Very nice, very nice. I like that.
Zero down there. Nobody got hurt. This episode.

That's always good.

Um We will keep it going.

Hawk and then giraffe draft you take Chris's mail bag, please.

Oh, by the way, Latin title in an episode, it's going in the list.

I have a list of all the episodes of the Latin title.

Thank you.

It was like, keep me from being able to name all of the episodes.

So Chris brought I like this but I felt that I got more character back story in the last episode.

Also my issue with Poco Dumb felt even cheesier and relevant. Uh This episode, I love the way they went about the trial.

I enjoy how number one's role was put forth even in the cliche times, it was a smart solution to keeping her.

But also staying with the track timeline overall though I think maybe a five, it helps the flow but doesn't stand out friendship, friendship over kidding.

Uh MC.

Can you take S please that wrote?

This is one of those allegory episodes, Star Trek does since the beginning of time.

And for me, it hits all of the notes, loved every minute of it.

Very nice and Eric with Havens, please Haven wrote.

This episode was one of the strongest episodes of Trek I've seen in a very long time, honestly, has been years since I felt called out.

And that even includes Discovery 304, which gave me the strength to come out as non- binary.

I felt like this episode was a amazing strong episode of Star Trek.

Is it the best of Trek?

No, but it is one of the strongest I've seen was I expecting the outcome.

Unfortunately.

Yes.

But at the same time, I absolutely loved every twist and turn.

I think this episode would have been better as either the season finale or season opener.

By the way, I just will say to, to counter that I do think and I've tweeted this and I think everybody agrees.

This is a, well, at least the crew with the stranger po crew.

This is a Hall of Fame episode of Trek like Hall of Fame, one of the best episodes of Star Trek ever.

Um I'm gonna go in the order that I see on the screen. Uh Nari, can you take Michael Quan's mail bag, please? Sure.

I feel honored because if I remember correctly, was this, was this the one who said he was a lawyer?

Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.

Uh uh Michael Kwan uh writes Trek is sometimes at its best when it discards subtlety and speaks from the heart.

The original series episode.

Let that be your last battlefield for example, the writers handled a legal proceeding about as well as I can expect from TV.

I hear, I agree with you, Mike.

Um This, this episode is definitely on a par with the next generations, the drum head or the measure of a man.

Very nice, very nice.
Uh Josh, can you take Eric the Reds mail bag, please?

Yes, once I go back to the screen, this is one, this is one of the best episodes of strange new worlds and modern Trek.

Absolutely.
One of the best courtroom episodes on par with measure of a man.

The execution of the episode from start to finish between casting, writing and directing was sublime.

The timing of this episode is impeccable would not be surprised if this episode gets a Hugo nomination.

Indeed.
That would be awesome if it did.
I will take rude parakeets.
This week's episode has joined my list of the greatest of all time Trek episodes. The message is one I feel the world really needs to hear right now.

I I feel like I'm butching her name every time and I hope I'm not Yati Badi performances near was outstanding.

I also loved the and or vibes I got from the beginning of the episode. The costumes also really stood out to me this week.

So props to Bernadette Croft every single week, props to Bernadette Croft by the way, uh back to you Hawk with Yum Yum Pods, please.

Yeah.

Yy Pod wrote it's no Boston legal, but it follows the typical beats of a courtroom drama and that's perfectly fine.

I'm glad that number one is getting some time to shine and here's hoping there will be more of that in the season.

Not really a surprise that una was the one who informed the higher ups about her situation.

But there was a moment where I joked that it could have been that freaky little racist Sam Kirk who has yet to appear this season overall.

Not a favorite, but I do appreciate the team giving us a talky episode with no shoved in action set piece.

I agree with that part.
For sure.
Draft.
You take Nyr Lights, please.
Nyr Light wrote, wanted to like it more, but it just didn't do it. For me.

It did the requisite job of resolving the una issue while staying within the track timeline for how genetic modification is handled.

You've got to wonder if UNA has much of a chance of being promoted now that it's known that that now that it's known that she's an LRN.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the rest of the season goes with a reunited cast.

I'm also going to say that there's no way in hell, Starfleet doesn't promote una because everybody in the Federation of Star Fleet watched that trial on television and that would

be more discrimination and they're not going to do that to themselves. So that's where I'm at.
Uh Where am I MC?
Can you take Collins?

Please?

Colin wrote, I cannot pretend to be an objective critic here, but I can say this, I love courtroom drama and I always have intelligent entertainment is a mental turn on this episode is just that for me, the prosecution did her job while obviously not enjoying what she was doing.

Defense was so good.

Her asylum strategy was brilliant.

Her speech got a little preachy but it was pure truth.

Not surprised.

It was una supporting cast was as always enjoyable objectivity set aside here, love this nice Eric.

You get to read the Limerick Tara's mail bag today, please.

He wrote there once was the Lian named Una whose story quite turned into quite uh Magilla.

I don't know that she lied about her race but Starfleet did and about face. And while this episode reminds me of OK, my bad.

Um I didn't hate watching this episode, but I did feel insulted by it, not its message, its message.

It is unfortunately timeless, but its method.
I feel like they hit us over the head with mallets.
I will give strange the world points for the attempt.
This didn't come close to the measure of a man for me.

But that could also be because I saw, I first saw that at 25 plus years ago when I was far, far less wien Thank you, Eric.

I'm just writing about pancakes.
I'm sorry.
One second.
It's, it's important when it comes to Captain Patel. Ok.

Where are we?
Yes, thank you.
Can you take strange free world's mail bag, please?
Happy too.
Strange.
Free World writes overall very good episode, in my opinion.
Maybe because I am stuck in, stuck in wanting to see the best in humanity right now.
I like the bringing it back to the Starfleet ideal.
Side note the scene with Ortega and Maa was very funny.
It really was.
That really got me.
It was awesome.
I love that.
Okie Dokie, Josh, can you please take us home with Jay Woodman's mail bag, please? Yes.
The message of this episode is important and very relevant for today.
Could it have been delivered better?

Yes, this was a far cry from a measure of a man.

It's like they started a great conversation, trailed off in the middle, took a nap, woke up and set a cramped postcard with the resolution of the conversation.

I would have loved to have seen more writing development, exploration of the immigration amnesty issues throughout and gotten more of the crew involved in the story.

They missed a great opportunity to add character development.
Backstory.
Side note, the dress uniforms are beautiful and I hope we see more of them this season. Definitely agree about the dress uniforms.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, case closed, guys, case closed, case closed.
This was like a full time.
No, we're not going four hours.
Jesus, like a, like a real legal proceeding.
I, no, I'm not even kidding.
When I say this was everything I would have hoped it would have been and more.
I really do mean that.
But sadly, it is the end before we go, Nari Josh Plug away.
What's going on with the legal geeks?
What's going on with you?
And where can we find you guys?

So the legal geeks will be at San Diego Comic Con, I cannot say anymore because I believe in surprises and the schedule will come out two weeks before they've been trying to get my panels.

Like, and I'm like, I can't tell you, I don't know, but there will be two and they will be

grooving.

You can check us out on the legal geeks dot com.

Our social media is at the legal geeks.

I'm starting to experiment more with tiktok and doing short analysis of movies and specific issues and that's a lot of fun.

Uh If you look at our podcast channel on wherever you listen to podcasts, uh we do have a brand new uh one posted on Nerd Night, which was a Trek episode and starting on Monday, we're gonna start recording on secret invasion and one of the attorneys is Mark Zaid, who is a national security attorney and you know, he's a good buddy.

Um So he's on been on Meet the Press a bunch in the past week doing CNN for some reasons.

It's in the news and uh like of a nice guy, a classic comic book collector.

So it'll be with him, Steven Tole Field and working on, uh, at least one other attorney, uh, to participate in that.

And, uh, and I need to start covering strange new worlds with season two, but we've been both working hard.

So, sounds like you guys are lawyers or anything. Right.
Right.
I mean, I'm going back to the office after this.

So that's, that's my.

So we're not doing a post pod Q and A.

There's your answer right there.

I can hang out for a little bit but I I there's, there's a damages analysis that needs to be done and I also blog, I need discovery.

So my other Twitter handle is at Bow Tie Law.
So that's everything or you could also connect with me on Facebook.

No, any I know there are things that you might say, oh, I don't really, I'm sorry, I don't really have a social media presence.

I'm one of the legal geeks though.

So, so, so tweet at them if you want to get in touch with me, I just really like hanging out and talking about geeky legal things with Josh and with people like the crew here.

So please keep inviting me back.

I love it.

We will definitely have you back any time that you want.

This was a freaking blast.

Cannot wait to talk to you guys again.

I'm sure there will be a court martial episode sooner rather than later because Trek loves them.

And then we get to do fun episodes like this, which I will never forget I had such a fucking blast.

I can't even tell you.
Um That is gonna do it for our show.

It's gonna be a fun one next week because I'm gonna host it from probably giraffe's apartment and we're gonna have to figure out your internet, so I don't get cut off.

No, I'm kidding.

Canadians take over next week, take over next week and uh and we are most probably not going to agree next week also.

So stay tuned.

Uh two weeks in a row that you got full agreement from the pod that's gonna change next week.

Uh Legal geeks, Josh Nari.
Thank you so so much.
Also a big thank you to our executive producers, Commander Chris Simon Steger and

the chief, er, Ernesto Castan.

You guys rock for MC for Hawk, for Eric, for Nari, for Josh, for giraffe.

So many people, I'm Julian live long and prosper Mushroom.

Good nights.

Thanks for beaming into our podcast today.

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