SNW "Under the Cloak of War" Review w/ The Duras Sisters

Welcome to another edition of Strange new pod.

I am your fleet abroad host Julian Brown alongside the best bridge crew.

This side of A K-7

Bartender being asked one too many times for a frickin Raktajino.

I put a frickin in there this time because why not Commander Hawk is here

Ready to tickle a heart.

Please don't because you don't have a medical degree.

I'd like to talk to a doctor.

I am a doctor, a real doctor.

No, I, I am a doctor.

That's a Barbie reference for anybody who's seen that.

It's so good and Commander Emcee is here tonight and is just happy that Chappell had next to no scenes with Spock this week.

Uh And the ones that she did have were actually, we will talk, we will talk about, we will talk about.

That's right.

Vice Admiral Eric had a shuttle malfunction and Rutheford is slacking getting that replacement part to him.

Rutheford dude, come on, man. I know you're better than that. Come on.
Come on.

Buffer time, buffer time, not buffer time.

Uh and Captain Girafe is off this week, but she was representing us on Star Trek Discovery Pod.

Last night.

So I highly suggest you go check that out over on their youtube channel.

Good friends of ours.

Welcome back guys.

Welcome aboard.

How are you two?

Doing?

Good, good, good, good.

So also as you can see, joining us on our view screen tonight are very, very dear friends, Ashly and Rihanna from the Dura Sisters podcast.

Welcome back.

Happy to be here.

It is so eager to jump in on it doing well.

Let's go.

This is like that episode where we're going to jump in and it's probably going to be like non-stop because it's that episode of, uh, of Strange New Worlds.

Uh It is so good to have you guys back. What have you guys been up to?
How are things?
Things are great.

Uh We just got back from visiting each other in Virginia with our little sister for the week. That was really fun and yeah, now we're just thriving on our engineering series currently. So, which is awesome.

We were just talking about your watch list off mic and how much hell Ashland is probably going to have to go through to write the DS 91.

Yeah.

Good luck.

I'll let you do with that, Ashlin.

We'll happily take it.

Yeah.

Um It's awesome to have you guys back.

We're so excited to be doing this episode.

Um I, I did invite you just thinking and knowing before we even got our screeners or right when we got our screeners.

Hey, it's the click on episode and we talked way before Stranger World even started, there's gonna be click on.

So we have to have you guys at one point.
Um We got the deep one.
So here we are, which is right up your guys alley. So it's perfect.

Um Before we get into everything, uh we were going to say this on every single podcast until people get what they deserve and get their do this live stream and podcast was recorded during the 2023 WG A and S A after strikes without the labor of the writers and actors currently on strike, the Star Trek series that we cover and love on this show wouldn't exist.

So we are in full support of the writers and the actors to get what they deserve. I'll also say this on every single show.

Just look at what they're trying to do with A I and if it doesn't terrify you, it's, yeah, it's awful.

So you obviously haven't seen season two of discovery. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.

So, period, pay your writers, pay your actors.

Stop it with this A I nonsense.

So, uh with that being said, this week on the pod, what happens when a Klingon defector turned Federation ambassador Doc son of Rau is welcome to board the Enterprise.

How do Chapel and Ortegas react?

What do we learn about chaplain mga's roles during the Klingon War and during the siege of and what terrible truth do we learn about?

We are gonna break that all down. But first MC you are up.

It is your turn to thank our patron collective members at the ready room level and above and the list keeps getting longer for you.

So, apologies.
It does.
Yeah.
Thank you to Jeff Reeve Mariahs, Kulla Jen Stein, Tina Alexander, Joe Sapio.

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Ok.
I'm done for the evening, right? For the evening.
See you later.

Just don't go any near uh go any near airports that have Air Canada on.

I mean you'll be fine.

So yeah, you're right to criticize us.

I am we were trying to find out maybe if we do what brand Car, Eric's car was so we could criticize that too and not get sponsored by them.

So uh also. Guys.

A big thanks to our executive producers, Commander Chris Simon Steger and the Chief Ernesto Cassania.

Oh, yeah.

And we have a new one which is just wild to me.

I, I love our patrons so much Chris Waterman.

Welcome as well.

Y'all literally keep the lights on for us.

So cheers, much appreciated.

Um We have some very quick news.

We're gonna try and get right into this episode as quickly as possible.

Uh MC and Hawk, since you are the Canadian contingent, uh talk about Fan Expo uh Fan Expo, Canada is one of the biggest conventions in North America.

I think it's the third biggest one and it is coming the last week of August.

Um and it is a whole lot of fun and we are going to be there as press and we are planning some sort of live events and we would super love every, we don't have all of the details put together yet because you know, just trying to recover from San Diego Comic Con, but now we're going into full speed on it and we will be having news come out shortly and we would love you guys to come.

Tickets are currently basically, they're just just gonna go up in price from now.
So get them while you can get hotel rooms if you uh if you need them because you

know people come in for Fan Expo.

So it's gonna be quite busy, should be a fun time.

Yeah, Toronto is a fun ass city to come party and so if you can make it come on down.

It's true.

I can confirm I've been there twice and I love it every single time I go.

So um yeah, we have some fun stuff that we're trying to plan.

We would love to see you guys there as well.

And then uh postcards I keep saying and I actually had them on my desk and it was messy.

So I moved them but they are going out to you. Uh and they're awesome and they look really cool.

Um Yeah, so here is the villains as you could see another one of their awesome new shirts this evening.

Thread the Needle, some Ortegas love, right?
You get some enterprise phaser action on an asteroid, the Enterprise on it is gorgeous.

Um If you like this shirt they just put on their socials, a bunch of brand new ones that just dropped, I think from like the past two episodes.

So some um crossover ones, I think some from um episode six.

So, uh they're awesome and if you'd like to get 1 20% off your first order with our unique code, which is in all caps strange heroes and villains dot com.

I know a lot of people in our awesome collective have ordered already.

Um If you don't want their shirts, they have like hoodies and um a lot of us on the pod are also baseball hats.

A lot of us on the pod are also massive Star Wars fans and their Star Wars gear is like, it gives me palpitations.

It's really good.

So 20% off your first order using our code stream, I think. You mean Palpatine?
That's what I was gonna say.
Yes, because somehow he came back, get off my bridge. I take it.

You should, you should.

Uh, unfortunately that is us only.

Um, hopefully that expands at a later date.

We are hoping to somehow work that out.

But for now, that is unfortunately us only but get, get your shirts.

They're awesome and it helps us out as well.

So, uh should we get into the strange new loop?

Yes.

Yes.

Good.

The third is, it's the Cerritos things don't work.

That's right, guys do loop time.

So we had the premiere which had Klingons.

Um So we had that and then obviously this one is also a major Klingon episode.

A lot of people have wanted a, you know, a deeper look into the Klingon War because we got it a little bit in discovery.

But I feel like not as much as I think fans wanted.

So my question for you guys tonight is after this episode, do you think that strange new worlds should keep picking up the pieces of the Klingon war or after these two episodes that we've seen now this season is, is that enough?

Uh And youtube Chat, let us know as well. Your thoughts.
Uh Who wants to go first?
We got some eager people tonight.

Let's go.

Um, I think absolutely.

I think that this is the biggest gap that we have between T Os and the next generation.

And we have about 100 years of like history.

We don't know about the Klingons or history that's been referenced, but we haven't seen you on screen and I think there's a lot of rich history to dive into.

And I think especially it's interesting to just see a perspective where there's uncertainty about the Klingons and the Federation.

Um, the war is over certainly.

But like in this episode, we're seeing how they deal with that and I think it would be very exciting to see.

So I'm all for, I mean, I'm biased in the Sisters.
I'm all for more Klingons in the future.
I don't think the season necessarily, but next season, let's keep going.
Yeah.
Fair.
Fair.
Who wanted to go next?
There were so many hands.
So, yeah, I agree with Ashlin a lot.
I think that there is so much to unpack even between strange new worlds in T OS.

You know, we know that there is animosity.
We don't know how much, obviously.
And then of course, we get the movies that cover it and then that tng gap.

So there is so much to discover and I think like continuing to broaden the horizon of what, how we view Klingons is really important because like this episode, you know, we get sort of a two tiered like opinion about like the Klingons during this episode throughout.

And so that's always really interesting to look at.

I think it's really important, you know, to unpack, especially with Ortegas and sort of mentioning her like, struggles with the romulans when we saw that like future episode and then this one with the Klingons and just like how it impacts certain people is really interesting to me.

And yeah, I mean, we already got such a rich backstory for Minga and Chapel a little bit in this one.

So like, really, I feel like we can just keep doing more of that, but I'm a deep dives kind of person.

So I feel like that also depends on how you like episodes.

If you would like those kind of like deep insights into like Federation history, which I do, then I'm so for this, I think it's also because I love Deep Space Nine and that's all you know, so much about war and about like the conflict.

So I always find it really interesting for sure.
Yeah, I agree.
Uh I, Ashlyn and Rihanna, I totally agree with you guys. Absolutely.

We need to have some more Klingon episodes because or episodes about the Klingon war because while the Klingon War happened, we we've moved into the Klingon Federation Cold War.

Uh And if, if you look at their first appearance in errand of mercy like they're on the brink of going to war again.

So, I mean, we're gonna have this back and forth between the Federation and the

Klingons up until we get the kid records, which is still what, 2030 years away at this point.

Like there's a long and even after that, when we get into deep space nine, then we have the, you know, the problems um uh during, you know, the early days of the Dominion War where, you know, the Klingons, the Klingons have been very hesitant allies even going into the TNG era.

So, yes, absolutely.
At this point, we're, we're only what, three years out from the, from the Klingon. Not a long time.
It's like a long time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I'm just not sure how they could, like going forward in strange new worlds and that, I mean, you'll have references for it and that, but we, I don't think we'll ever get a deep dive into the front lines like we did with that this episode again.

And it's like, I don't know if we really need to get that, get that involved again because flashback episodes only work, you know, so, well, you know, if you do too many of them, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of a wasted endeavor.

Um But definitely there's still a lot of fallout in that, you know, as we've seen in this episode, you know, the, the memory of it, it clings, you know, no pun intended.

It clings to people who have gone through it.

So, you know, it's something that we'll come back to at some point in the, in the following seasons.

Um, you know, but I think as far as the season we're done. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, Eric Summers in the chat said, uh, only if they bring back Laree, which is absolutely like my, my take.

Um, there's so many people over the years that have like clamored and, and been, I would say pretty vocal about like Star Trek series does not always need to be from the Federation's point of view.

And while I don't think that we will ever get like a legit Klingon series, I think an episode of Strange New Worlds, one does need to bring Lare back.

And I think, you know, there, there are ways to show more of like how she kind of like made her rise and, you know, kind of got back into the fold and got ash into, you know, onto discovery.

And, you know, even if we don't get those stories, just like I want a Klingon War episode told from the Klingon point of view and I love Ortegas to be involved in that because even though we do get a little more so yet again, we still don't have all of this story and you could tell that story from the Klingon point of view and still have her being like a focus of that.

So, um I, I would really like something like that next season.

It is something that like, I, I think people forget just how bad off the Federation is at this point in the, in the timeline, right?

Like millions and millions dead, the Klingons literally took star base one.

That's how close they were to earth.

Like star fleet is reeling.

And that's why captain, that's why, you know, people like Jim Kirk were fast tracked for command, you know.

Uh so I think these are stories that that should be told.

Absolutely, I want, so that episode you pitched, that's either for next season of Strange New Worlds or for the anthology series that they're definitely going to do because they absolutely need to do the anthology series, which was supposed to be discovery, right?

The anthology series was supposed to be discovery and then they made it discovery. Um They should make, they should I completely agree with you.

I completely agree with you.

Yeah, but that is a really good idea, like for a, an episode next season that just kind of takes place on board a cling on ship, kind of like Wedge Dodge.

Yeah.

Eric also says that one episode of disco season two focusing on her was fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah.

No, it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh Human rights.

We are so we are as far away from the Klingon War as Nemesis was from the end of the Dominion War.

That's true too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, uh, anything else on the strange loop question? Good, good.

We're getting right into this.
We're moving right along.
It is our review of episode 208 of strange new worlds under the cloak of war.

Our roundtable order tonight will go Ashlin or Rihanna, whichever one of you, you guys can switch back and forth.

Um, and then Hawk mc Eric is on my list.
He did not make it uh followed by myself.
So that is what we will do.
We will start with uh the welcome, welcome aboard uh with uh what are they called? The the bus and whistles as well.

I love and whistles. I love it.
I love that touch.

Um Son of Raul Aon known to have committed atrocities during the war who later defected to the Federation and became ambassador beams aboard in very, very uneasy enterprise, right?

Um There are definitely not all of the crew because they were away.

And if you haven't read the Enterprise War, it's kind of the back story of where enterprise was.

Um but some of them were transferred on and did fight in the Klingon War.

Um Pike grants uh request for a tour and they stop at Sick Bay where has a panic attack right at the site of um Chappel is also affected by this and we fast forward to the bridge and Ortegas, right?

It gets caught saying some less than flattering things about him earning stern looks from Pike and una a lot to go off just before the, the, the credits even roll.

Um What do we think about this kind of almost disastrous arrival? Kind of Allah, the, the undiscovered country?
Hm.
I was thinking about undiscovered country a little bit here.

Um, I really liked raw at first.

Like I was like, ok, this is, this can be a really interesting take of having a defector come aboard.

Um Get to see that there's not all Klingons who wanted war, that type of thing.

And so it's really interesting then getting to hear the different perspectives of um Ortegas versus aura, which is like completely opposite spectrums of opinions about raw.

And I think really what makes this first part of the episode so good is the acting like everyone here is bringing their a game as my girlfriend says, like their rent was due like they were getting that rent buddy, like they were so good in this episode.

And I think that helps a lot with the tension because I am but very much like an empathetic watcher.

So I get embarrassed with the people I like get really invested.

And so I was really feeling the tension with everybody on this scene, especially the bridge and Sick Bay scenes.

Um And I'm seeing right in the beginning of the episode, they're showing us how polarizing robbing on the ship is because we have the people who weren't in the war who have this sort of very starfy outlook of.

Well, he's good now, you know.

Well, he's, he's changed, he's decided to go for peace instead of war and then we have the people who are participating in the war and who were kind of forced to fight the Klingons for all of these years.

And it's just completely different, their opinions about raw.
So, I really enjoyed that.
I think it was a great start to the episode, even though it has me cringing a little.
It's like a good cringe though.
It's one of those where you're like they did this so well that I'm feeling it so viscerally. Yeah.
Yeah.
Great points.
Rihanna.
I really want to talk about pike for a second because I thought it was good that he talked

to and Chappel and say, you know, hey, I understand what's going on.

Um Like, I, I know you've been through the war and just checking to see, is it ok if you come to this captain's dinner, which I, I don't think we've seen that kind of empathy in other like Star Trek captains before.

Um, this is a, you know, we're having mental health is a little bit more involved in this show.

And, uh, so I thought it was cool that Pike did that.

I think he can't possibly understand everything that they've gone through because I think it's kind of insane.

For him to have actually asked that.
And the fact that they say yes, just tells me, like, they're like, only doing it for Pike.

And I think if he had maybe not asked them to join or not, not, like, like if they had declined and said, no, I can't do that.

Or um, if Pike had just said, hey, like, take the night off, it's not that important. It, it might, things might have gone a little bit more smoother.

Um But I also understand what Starfleet is trying to say, like send a message like we are friends with um with the Klingons and everything's fine.

Like let's put on a good show. So that really struck me.

Um And I, I agree that what Rihanna said, where uh in general, we're past the point of everyone sees a Klingon and they're like, oh no, I'm so scared and like racist about Klingons in general.

I I thought it was really great to get a specific ambassador that was so complicated because it really showed all the fractures so well in star fleet.

So really strong start.
I couldn't believe all this happened before the intro. It was like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

This was quite the intro. There was a lot to unpack.

It was really well edited, like in the beginning uh as you that edit, you see as uh Pike is monologue about its uh the arrival of the ambassador.

And like all the peace accomplishments, like the treaties and everything that he's, he's, he's, he's helped coordinate.

But it's that edit between some of my crew members and that uh were, were, you know, were away during the Klingon War.

And that, but then focuses on one, there are some who served in the Klingon War and you can see like the difference in fatal expressions at his arrival.

I was blown away when I saw him arrive and I was like, that's Robert Wisdom uh uh as a major fan of the Wire.

And that in his performance as major bunny Colvin was like, it's iconic.

Also, he was on the, you know, the last couple of seasons of Barry and he was just fantastic in that.

It's like one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Um But yeah, the, that panic attack that Ian was happening was it, it was so viscerally performed by him and that especially that thing where he just kind of tapping on his chest and that like near his heart.

And it's almost like he's trying to get his heart to start back up again. I've been there before.
So, yeah.
Yeah.

MC.

Um Wow, there's so much to say um first of all, just to get this out of the way, I wanna say everybody's performances in this episode was so good.

Like everybody total a game that being said, I can almost see the writers' room and the looks that just must have like the wide eyes when somebody came in and it's like, ok, so the federation is gonna do operation paper clip and one of the people they were

recruiting is gerbils.
And because that's exactly what's going on here.
They, like, just a hardcore war criminal is being brought in to do peace.
And, um, I'm gonna have a lot to say in this episode about a lot of different aspects of it. Like the panic attacks.
Oh, I felt that in my soul.
Um And I don't know how I feel about a lot of that.

Um But um this is probably the best point for me to mention Ortegas um because she does have that great discussion with at the beginning of the episode uh when they're on the bridge, I really think they should have gotten more Ortegas on this.

I, I think they made a huge mistake not having Ortegas in the flashbacks.
And I know some people might say, oh, then it's, everybody knows each other.

But the thing is we already know that Ortegas and Chappe knew each other because Chappel was new to the ship when in uh the pilot.

Uh But they'd obviously known each other for a long time because of all of the stories about Ortegas being Chapel's wingman.

So, like, I think very much could have been, you know, and it would have, we've already of all of the characters Ortegas is the one that we've had the most um, prejudicial uh view of.

So it would have been really good to actually see why from her. So, yeah.
Yeah.

And did have the, I'm sorry, I did have that same kind of reaction when I, when you learned about like, uh ambassador raw that he was not only, you know, a general in the war and that, but he was also a defector and that he was given an ambassadorship by star fleet.

And that, and that's, that was the one part I just could not compute. Yeah.

Agreed. Agreed.

Um I want to go off what you said MC because yummy I POD brought up a great point in the chat.

Uh I would love if the, I would love if the more we got of her wasn't just she quips or is bigoted because she is bigoted right on the bridge.

Like the things she's saying, whether they're true or not dudes on board, you have a job to do.

Like I would love that back story.
I would love to know what happened to her to make.

I mean, like, listen, we know by the end of this episode why Chappel and Omega have all this PTSD, right?

But we still don't really know other than even Boer in those old times, like you're a war hero.

But like, why is she a war hero? What did she do?

Um And I'd love to know that story and I know everyone in our chat and, you know, like, listen, our friends at open Pike night, like, started the more movement, like, you know, uh, more, right?

Like, like I said, make this an episode next season, give us more Klingons and give us more.

Um, for me, um, there's just, there's so much to unpack here. Right.
Uh, the panic attack hit me really hard.
Um, I have panic attacks like that.

Um, I have severe anxiety, severe depression and I've been there and I've been to the point where I've clutched my heart thinking I'm having a heart attack and I've called my wife and be like, I think I'm having a heart attack and she's like, you need to calm down.

You're not having a heart attack, you're having a panic attack.

It's ok.

And I felt that and that was hard to watch on TV, because the, and I, I believe um Silver Medal Tavern, um our friend Matt, who's one of the editors on Strange of the world that mentioned, uh this episode was edited by Dana and I'm sorry if I mispronounce the name Gaspar, uh who also edited the Ele Kingdom, uh did an amazing job on this episode the way that that was shot and then edited and just directed just like, felt that like MC said, like in my soul.

So, um but we get, we get so many different missteps, right?
That really hit the Ortegas misstep, the, the sick bay, misstep the gino misstep Right.

And you see like, you know, he's putting on this facade of I, you know, I hate my people, not all Klingons or, or brutality, but when he touches that hot Rano, you could almost see a hint of that flare up.

And this was one of the most intense star Trek cold opens in a really long time.

So I thought, I thought they did a very good job.

Yeah.

Uh Does anybody else have anything they want to touch on this before we move on?

I was just gonna mention to the scene with the direct Gino like is totally raw, internalized, like racism coming out.

You know, when he's saying all this stuff about I can't like, like don't equate this to my my like I'm not what we know.

He essentially, he's doesn't want to hear him being himself, him being compared to other Klingons and being tied to that culture.

And I think because he's so desperately trying to leave his past behind that he thinks this is the best way to do it is to just like completely reject being a Klingon and that's a way to do it is to completely become the Federation ambassador, you know, but you also have to still be connected to Klingon culture in order to do that.

And so that's the huge disconnect I'm seeing here with raw is that like there's clearly some internal battle going on here that we get from this cold open And, oh, it's just amazing the way it's done.

If you think about it like that totally goes with his whole self loathing because he did the

last thing a klingon is supposed to do and that's run away from a battle.

So the only way for him to justify it in his mind is to create this elaborate backstory and, you know, a, a turn against everything that he grew up, he grew up with, you know, his entire culture because they're, they're obviously wrong.

There's nothing wrong with him.

Yeah.

But that it, yeah.

And it's weird because it all began like as soon as he got on the ship and that when it was addressed as and that, and he's just raw just fine.

And that, and then went on to comment about how Klingon names are just like, you know, impossible to pronounce.

Uh And then like that bit was Spock because Spock was really interested in Klingon culture and like somebody pointed out, it's like probably the seed that you know, of that air just, yeah, Julian pointed out that this is the seed that probably, you know, germinated until what became in, in undiscovered country.

And that uh how Spock was the one who, you know, allied with the Klingons to find them a new home world.

I thought the seed was planted by him getting drunk with them and the premier.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

We're starting to see a little button now, but Yeah, the guy was dismissive of his entire culture and, and we know that Sorry Hawk, but we know right.

Like how much Klingon names do mean?
Right.
Like saying the full name and like to dismiss that even as someone, you know who? Yeah, I just, I was, it was weird.
It was definitely weird.
He could tell immediately there was something just awful about it.

Very jarring.

I also just want to add real quick that, you know, I think hack brought up how kind of shocking it was to see that the Federation had made him an ambassador.

I think it speaks to their desperation.

Um You know what Julian was talking about about how this time in star fleet is like really crazy.

But it also made me think about this Voyager episode where the doctor um calls, he goes to the Holodeck and he creates another doctor who's like specialized in Bona in Klingon physiology.

And he, like everyone on board is like very alienated because he killed so many people, people in the um he was Kardashian, he was a Kardashian and he experimented on Bajorans and that's why he like knows all these techniques and why he's like in the Yeah, I can't remember if I someone throw out the episode name.

But um that was, I was really thinking about that because he like, they look at what's he doing right now and he's a professor, like he's just chilling in the alpha quadrant living his life, like not suffering any consequences for anything he's done during the war.

So this is not the first time Star Trek has done this, but this is early early on.

So maybe they were just looking at this ambassador and thinking, hey, that's a good idea.

Like these were criminals.
We should give them a new life in the federation. Like how sketchy is that?

Um Tara goes in the chat, Eric was probably flying, going back to Ortegas, maybe flying bombing missions, I expect or flying people to battle locations, kind of what we see how Chapel arrives.

So, yeah.
Uh, definitely interesting. Let's see it on TV.
You know, let's go.

Um, let's move on to the siege of, right, because we get flashbacks, like we get to see the Klingon war and, and how absolutely brutal it is.

Right.

It gives us our closest look at that since Discovery season one.

we get the back story of Chapel's posting right on and how she, uh, meets em.

Right.

Um, and then also I have to just give a shout out Clint Howard in this episode.

Oh, my God.

Literally, he's been in Crown.

I saw somebody call him a slow burn.

Jeffrey Combs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and then we see just how awful, right.

The, the, the front line of this war are, especially on which I think everybody has described as being the worst front that there was during the war.

Um, and Chappe has to adapt to that setting and that surrounding because it doesn't seem like she's seen something like that before.

Um, and then like things like the badly injured being stored in the transporter buffer, which is definitely and homage to, you know, and be a story with his daughter.

Right?
With, um, yeah. Yeah.

Uh, literally surgery being performed that harkens back to how surgery is done right now.

Right?
Because they don't have a what they call it a uh an internal organs. Yeah.
Right.
So they're literally opening people up like the old days.
Bones would be horrified.
What is this?
The dark?
Oh man.

But yeah, doing things like open heart surgery, uh tired soldiers asking MGA for stems and what protocol 12 which we'll, we'll talk about obviously, um he created this and then even asking to become the ghost.

Did we find out in this?
He had something like 90 confirmed kills during the war?
You know, he's black out special.
Yeah.
Hand to hand.
Um because the the Klingons by um by Doros order start killing civilians and Children. And it's dark.
Um What do we think about these?
There's so much to unpack in these flashbacks.
Uh And then just like this in depth and brutal.
Look at the front line.
Oh my gosh.

I actually love these in a weird way.
Um I think this type of scene is completely new to the Star Trek formula.

Like, we, we rarely get in depth flashbacks like this, especially some that are so brutal, so emotionally, like pull you in so deeply.

It's something like, it's a scene that's going to stay in my head when I think of Strange New World season two.

I'm like, oh, I'm having flashbacks.
Like it was such a, such an interesting scene.

And I also, I thought about mash actually because Chappel, you know, she's head nurse.

I was like, literally she looks like Margaret Hoolihan's beautiful um kind of those like and by kind of vibes, like very like little to no technology to help them deal with these situations.

And it's interesting to see how quickly, you know, we feel like Chappel because we're in this scene and thinking this is really brutal.

You know, we're, we're right in it and we see he's like as casualties are coming and he's like you go, here you go here and he's used to it and he's really calm and I, I mean, I, I would expect nothing else but I, I thought it was a really, really cool scene.

Um and definitely very chilling a very like toned setting scene because it's very jarring. Once we go back to what's happening on the enterprise, it's yeah, very good contrast. Yeah.
So true.

Well said, I feel like to at least for me, flashback episodes are my favorite jokes. Like I love a good flashback.

I will write them all the time with my writing and I think that if they're done well then they're done like this, you know, and you get enough of the past and the present and you can see how with like this, the traumatic events they're going through, how they're starting to blend together as they're seeing, um, raw again and all of this.

And, you know, I'm really also thinking about mash, I'm glad you brought it up because

there's an episode and I think it's the beginning of season four when BJ first arrives, he's just, like, not starry eyed, certainly.

But he's just like, ready, you know, he's like, ok, I got drafted but like, oh, well, I'm, I'm here in Korea.

I'm gonna go do my best and then Hawk guy comes along is like, no, this place is hell, like get ready.

It's awful.

And like the first time he has to do surgery on the road, he's like throwing up, you know, because it's just this horrible experience.

And I'm really reminded a chapel here and because she is also sort of got this, like, na naivety almost where you just have because you're just coming into Starfleet to explore, like our cute little sweet guy said, you know, he just, yeah, he just joined to explore and so did, like, basically everyone else.

This is not like an Archer Enterprise time where they are fighting. All of these big wars are not supposed to be at least.

And So when this war is starting and people are being thrown into it, we see that this innocence is sort of dying so quickly for people like Chappel and we've seen it already died from manga, like over and over again because he's so just like calm, like ashly said, just very cool about everything and like, even the other guy says like, oh, well, you'll get used to it, you know, just like the constant bombings and everything that's happening.

And so I think it's really great that they start in the middle of the action here because it doesn't give us a chance to breathe, you know, just like Chappel is not given that chance.

It's, it's very much like throw you in the deep end, hope that you swim kind of thing, you know.

And so I think too, just from like a writer's perspective, I think it's like almost poetry the way that they keep having the like incoming transport, incoming transport over and over again because there's this like repetition, you know, it's kind of like the darker version of when Ja and Pog is like, has his little flashback episode and she's like, oops, this thing's broken, fix it.

Oops, you know, over and over again.
But this time, it's like, literally people are dying in this moment and it has this like,

there's something so important about repetition in media.

Like if you have, if you're repeating something over and over again, like it's for a purpose, you know, in poetry, if you're repeating the same line, like, it's gotta mean something.

And so I think it's really well done here that it's kind of the constant throughout, it's just the casualties keep coming in through the transporter and it's just sort of like a constant feedback loop for the both of them.

It's just so, so well done. Oh, no, you're good. Yeah.

Um, I did like the economic direction that they took, you know, and bringing us into, like, you know, the front line of like the worst part of the Klingon war and that we kept ourselves kind of steady in the, the medical camp and the much like mash actually.

So it, it's good that they create, it's amazing how they created the tension in that while staying in a place that's supposed to be kind of their sanctuary, right.

You know, besides, you know, with everything going on around them and not the noise and that as a shuttle comes in and that they're taking fire from like air turrets, um, soon as they get on the ground, she learns, like, you know, the situation that they're in and that they're under equipped, um, without technology.

And I just kept thinking and that, like, what we would think is as primitive medicine, um, is to them, the medicine they're having to perform there is probably something they haven't had to do in like, probably like 2, 300 years right.

At this point, like, I don't know, like, even their medicine, I don't know if they even actually ever see inside the human body.

Right.
I have to say you have to think that they do. Right, because they were trained to do it. Right.

So, I, it looks like Starfleet medical is smart enough to be like, hey, this Utopia is really nice, but one day you might have not have these and have to do real surgery with real knives and you know, real tools.

So I also want to point out had to massage a human heart.

The pilot episode, I feel like there's some joke about like, oh, someone took a course about how to do stitches too and yeah.

Can't remember what show that's from.
Yeah.
Well, that was, that was, um, that was ghost of.
No, not, no, it was um, uh lift us, let us, we suffering. No, I, no, I keep messing it up.
Sorry.
It was me.

That was the one I just named like three different like, yeah, good point because even back and then in season one and that, like he actually made a comment about how important it is to know the basics and that especially because he does his own compounding on materials and that to make new medications, right?

Uh, and then we see Josephine, like they're not even referring to him as doctor at this point.

Was he even like a doctor at this point, I think he was, I think he was, he had to have been, I think he was the MD, like, on the, on the base.

Unless it, unless it was Clint Howard. I like Clint.
Yeah, Howard was in charge.
Right.

But as he said, and was doing most of the work. Yeah.

And this came about as a decision because, like, on his part, because he was a soldier, like, and apparently a very good soldier.

But at some point he had some sort of like a crisis of conscience or maybe some sort

of an epiphany that said, like, I can't do what I've been doing and I, I have to do something else like, you know, instead of taking life, I got to try and heal and I kept kind of pondering that, you know, because the place later on in the episode as we realized that, you know, um he, he, he goes back on that, you know, you, you make that kind of a, you make that kind of a decision in that.

It's, it's not lightly in that at some point, you know, he had, he had a moment of clarity.

It's either everyone was gonna die and he goes with them and tries to get off planet or he tries to do something about it and gives chapel and the wounded and women and Children a better chance of survival.

Oh, yeah.

But I'm talking about even the decision to like, you know, I'm not going to take life anymore.

The closest I could equate it was like back in pulp Fiction and the, like with the, you know, with the, when Jewels witnesses the miracle and it's like I can't do this anymore.

Yeah.
MC.
Thank God we got chapel plot that doesn't involve the search for cock. Sorry, don't be sorry, hysterical.

But yeah, I mean, oh, they must have watched so many deep space nine episodes before doing this one because I mean, like this is nor to the, nor the battle to the strong, this is the siege of A R 558.

This has so much deep space nine in it. And I like this.
I like the flashbacks like I like Rihanna. I I love a flashback.

I love, you know, fleshing out somebody's story by actually showing what happened to them and seeing everything that happened like this is just brutal.

You just all of these people just, you know, being teleported or transported and like with guts falling out, I made him drop his, drop their phone.

Very proud of myself for that.

You earned it.

You earned that one.

And uh and and then like this, I like this is somebody who at this point is the CMO of the flagship.

So he is just like this super competent doctor, but this isn't what people are going to him for in, during the war.

It's for this, you know, this drug stim that he created and it's so that he can go kill people, which just goes to show you just how, you know, dangerous that drug is and how dangerous and bingo is.

Um, and it was in, it was so intriguing because, I mean, we knew that definitely had like a dark history but I don't think we thought it was this dark and, I mean, certainly in this episode we'll find out it goes even darker.

But even this is just like, oh jeez, like, was not expecting this.
Um, so many of the people in the chat referring to the Siege of A R 558, right? Um 588.
It's a great episode of DS nine.
People Loving.
I, I've seen all over the internet, the, the Love For Mash in this episode.

Um, I watched a lot of mash when I was really young because I used to lay in bed with my grandmother and she watched it, but I'm not old, like, I'm not old enough to remember it.

I had to go back and like, binge it.
Um Yes, do it.
My friend and I watch it every Sunday.
It's like the greatest thing you can do with your time. I know.

I totally flash back on that episode.

You mentioned on that about the bjs first appearance because he was, he was a boy scout in his dress uniforms arriving in Korea.

And then by the end, you know, and like, remember Frank was so Frank was so excited to get a hold of him and like, you know, kind of mold him into the surgeon that he wanted to have on the so good.

Yeah.

Um I was not, I didn't know we were going to get this, like when, when he beamed up, like I thought this might just be like a ship in a bottle episode, right?

Like we're just doing all this shit.

We're going to learn things through dialogue and all of a sudden we're on and I'm like, let's fucking go because I've been dying for more Klingon war content and to have an episode like this to come from DS Nine, which is my favorite Trek series.

Like it, it is just a, a love letter and homage to Ds Nine and it was gory.

It was scary.

It was um I know I've seen a lot, I don't want to speak for them because I'm not one I do have friends who are um I know this episode hit hard and did a lot of things for veterans.

Um It did a really good depiction of that.

Um One thing I want to talk about with Emba, by the way, Babs put in like, I know it's already been said, but just like this cast deserves so much more recognition from award shows and stuff and they don't get it and it's a shame just put in a master class and and, and so did Jess Jess Bush to be fair.

Um, actually you were talking about how I was, sorry, so many people, um, like this calm, cool, collected em.

And I thought that Chappel did a really good job because, right, she was like, yeah, I'll just get right to work and he's like, no, you'll have time for that.

Like, go watch a show or something.
But then the transporters go off and she does, she just goes right to work. And if she is, like, panicked, she's doing a really good job of keeping calm.

And I thought they did a really good job of showing that I want to talk about em's dark history because we know during this time, section 31 is really active.

Right.

And I've seen this theory and it's one that I agree with.

I do think that it was section 31 who tasked emo with making protocol 12.

And I think his 90 kills were through section 31 black ops missions.

Um, and again, I'd love to see that story.

Um, and then it's either a drug but not the kills personally.

But how else do you go doing, like hand to hand combat kills?

And I know it's possible but, like, I don't know, wouldn't they want him roped in for that kind of stuff?

And they're, you know, they had, what's his name on Kronos to, uh, to, to recruit, uh, Georgio right away.

Right.
Like they're everywhere.
So, I don't know.
I, I think that he did a lot for Section 31.

That's actually maybe one of the reasons where he's like, I'm done with this shit because section 31 is shady and we are doing things even though this is war that aren't ok and I'm gonna put my medical jacket back on.

Um, this is everything I wanted from a, from a flashback episode.

So, um, I was, I was really stoked.

Um trying to see if there's anything in the chat.

Uh Kay Quin writes, I wish we had met this version of chapel first and the God and the love story second.

I think everyone agrees with that wholeheartedly.

Um Yeah, but it was so great to see her in this setting and do, do medical work, like practice medicine, right?

And tickle a heart like just wild. I love it.

It's, it's like given what we've had of, of chapel and that through season one and two, it, it's, it's easy to forget that there is extensive resume with her.

Yep. Yep.

Um Anything else on the, these, some of these flashbacks, we'll get to more of them in a little bit.

Good.

Good.

Let's talk about that dinner that ashly alluded to, right?

Because Pike reluctantly asks Embale Chappell and Ortegas to attend this captain's dinner that he's hosting for.

They agree because it's Pike asking and, you know, even though it's not an order, it's apparently an order from Starfleet which is really just like as fuck.

I, I don't, I don't understand.
Um That's uh yeah, I can make a lot of comparisons anyway.

Um Things go well kind of at first but you know, it's boiling, it's getting to a boiling point as you can imagine.

It doesn't go well.

Ortegas has words uh bring up to which I thought was a really nice throwback to Disco season one, by the way with Remain Klingon.

Um And then Chappel leaves and then, and also uses that in excuse, even though Pike sees him, you know, like gripping his chair really hard, you know, like, why don't you go check on them too?

Um What do we think about the dinner?

Right.

And, and what does it say for Pike, who we generally think is like a really thoughtful captain, right?

To, to ask and not be understanding or empathetic of this ptsd that the portion of this crew has.

Yeah.
Oh, a lot to unpack here.

I think I this might sound like blasphemous but these last couple episodes I have just not been vibing with pike like at all.

Like, I don't know if it's the writing or the choices they're making or an and moo I, I can't pin it down, but I just feel like either you're not living up to your full potential or something is inhibiting him from like having a sort of deeper sense of empathy.

I think he was like, really cool during the Spock as a human shit show.
Um But then after that, like, I was just like, why are you making these decisions? What's going on?

Like, I especially in this episode was really disappointed in him because it seems as though the entire episode he's so focused on making raw, feel comfortable that he forgets that like he has a whole crew who is completely uncomfortable with this and clearly showing it.

Like, it's kind of clear that Mingo was not there to help bra in the beginning because he was having his panic attack.

And like Chappell was the only one to sort of recognize that. Sure, that's fine.
But pike like looked over, he, he catches notice of this thing.

He's clearly, he knows that these people who have been to the war and have seen these things are gonna have negative reactions he heard or, or takes his comment and I think he's a little bit hiding behind the Starfleet rules or this is what this is from really high up on Starfleet.

I'm like, ok.

And like, can you truly order, can a Starfleet admiral truly order someone to, like, re traumatize themselves at a dinner?

Like, I don't think that was the admirals can though, but you're a captain on the outer redresses space on a star ship who doesn't ever have to report to the admiralty that those people showed up.

Exactly.

And it wasn't like, go make them sit at this dinner.

It was just make sure that the war vets, like, get along with him.

It wasn't this sort of specific order, I think Pike just wanted it to sort of be ironed out it.

You know, it's, it's like, it's a good thought in theory, but again, he's sort of this, like, bright eyed the boy scout BJ style before he learns about the war.

And I think that that is just really like, not good because obviously he doesn't have this perspective.

But I think there's a lack of empathy there because like, I don't have that perspective, but I absolutely empathize with Minga and Ortegas even, even though she's being a little like hostile, I understand why and I would not invite her to the dinner.

Like, even if you're just gonna invite Iga and Chapel, why would you invite Ortegas when you know that she's probably gonna say something and you're trying to keep the peace so much like what's happening?

I don't understand what's happening with the writing.
If Pike is so preoccupied with like just trying to be captain that I don't know.
I just, I need some answers.
So I hear what you say.
That's a great point that you just brought up about uh Ortegas especially, right? Because um I think yummy just said the same thing in the chat.

I'm just going to say it, but Pike should not have invited Eric because she could barely hold it together at the best of times because I would not have invited her after I, I heard, like, I literally walked onto the bridge hearing her say those things, whether she has a trauma or not.

Ok, I get it bad idea.

She's not coming.

Doesn't necessarily feel the same way about em and chapel.

But, like, man, even in, as, like the CMO should have seeing her pacing should have been, like, I was in the war with you.

I get it.

I, you, you're on medical leave until he's off the ship.

Done.

So, yeah, we move anyway.

I just want to say that.

Um, ashly.

Yeah, I, I think it leaves an even, like, more sour taste in my mouth considering everything that he did for number one.

And, like, he was willing to go against, like, every Starfleet regulation.

Like, one of the biggest ones to hide the fact that she was an ally and like they did the whole trial.

So he's sticking up for some people but not for others. And I, I know he's, he's trying to manage Starfleet.
But, yeah, like Julian said, they're on the border of space. Like it's gonna be ok.

You know.
Um, yeah, again, like I said, in the beginning I'm glad he thought to ask.
But it's still, it would have gone so much smoother if he hadn't, uh, force them to go. I thought, I, you know, I have to do a Spock.
Shout out.

We already talked about how he's just like the perfect ambassador. He's such a good diplomat.

He, it is, it's weird to see these scenes with him in chapel um in general, but I did think it was good that he saw her distress.

And so to go and talk to um the general and or the ambassador and to change the subject was really good.

And that's how we got the interesting um discussion about the comparison between the art of War and the Klingon text.

Um which is something that like, I'm a huge nerd.

I wish that conversation had just been like, sound like they turned the volume down and focused on something else.

I was like, OK, I'm ready for this podcast.
I'm about to listen to you with and ambassador ra let's go.

Let's talk about this and real quick, did you know the Art of War is actually required reading at Starfleet Academy?

So they talk about it a lot.

They love interesting book.

I've read it a couple of times.

So, yeah, so I, I thought it was good.

Spock doesn't have a lot of awareness, situational awareness sometimes, but in this case, I guess he does.

Um Yeah, interesting dinner.

I can't stop thinking about undiscovered country because you know, it's like the famous Klingon dinner.

Um This is a lot less formal pike didn't put on a huge like cooking show for this. It, it seemed like they were all like, kind of sitting awkwardly, like around.
It just led to it, like, gave more a feeling of unease so interesting scene for sure.

A lot of people thought this was a bit of another Ds Nine Easter because Pike made, which is a for sure, for sure.

Um, yeah, this was kind of, that was a big failure on Pike's part, you know, because I know he went to there for the excuse to get the uh spice.

What do they call it?

It was uh Delton, Delton Oregano, right?

Or Dalton parsley.

Dalton parsley.

I thought it might be weed.

But it was like when he mentioned about the poisonous effects of it, like, you know, in large doses, I thought that was kind of like it turned out to be a bit of a red herring.

But oh yeah, I thought it was foreshadowing.
I was like this general is dying but I was, I was wrong way. Just not now.

So, uh yeah, it was, he really dropped the ball on this because he pretty much took like, Kim be out at his word, which I know like as a friend you're supposed to do in that, but he really didn't, he didn't have a good read on him as far as that, you know, it and yet like Ortegas just before she went into the dining hall and that uh had a chat with him and Bega was playing a lot of different roles.

In this episode.

And that, you know, it's like, not just like, you know, on the ground as like a, a healer and medic soldier, whatever.

And that, but it also like, it's interesting that he's still like the mental health professional and that for the rest of the crew, like every problem they had that they came to him to talk and he was always a great source of comfort to them and that he just seemed to know what they say, which is, which contrasts so sharply with like him in this episode and especially at the end in that it, you know, heal itself first.

Right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Um The dinner.

Yeah, I gained this.

It, Ross just seemed off in that like, it's almost, do you ever be a person that just seems like too gregarious and entertaining?

Yeah.

And it's like you're hiding something and that's the impression I got, especially just like when he's chopping it up there with everybody.

And I know her is like, kind of laughing at his jokes and about the made me really uncomfortable when her laughed at his jokes.

I was like, hm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know.

It's like in, in, when you think about it, Ortega reaction was like, probably the only normal reaction at that table.

Um I see.
OK, I know we like to make jokes about how bad the Federation is about mental health.

But my fucking God, like this is beyond the pale actually at this point, it's fucking insulting how badly they are treating mental health because as Hawk mentioned, like in this time period, the CMO it also functions as the counselor.

So MGA is the one who is looking after the mental health of everybody on the ship and he has massive ptsd that he uh is apparently so bad that he's having like multiple serious anxiety attacks.

So like what, what the hell like why aren't these people being taken care of?

Why is it just, oh, you'll be fine, like just come have some jambalaya and talk to the guy that you know, ordered your deaths on this planet.

Like no, this is not the way we treat people like this is like even now like, I mean, we're still not great with how we treat people with the PTSD after the war.

But I mean, we're, we at least acknowledge it for the most part.

And you would think by the 22nd century that um or 23rd, whatever we're in at this point in Star Trek that they would actually be like, yes, we acknowledge the fact that you have done through, gone through this terrible trauma and we're not going to re traumatize you by putting you in the room with this guy and expecting you to play nice.

Like there's absolutely no reason for it.

Like they're delivering this ambassador to somewhere else, but he's, he's not doing any ambassadorial duties on the enterprise.

This is just a glad handing situation.

So why the fuck is Pike insisting that the people that he knows specifically have been, you know, deeply affected by this be in the room and this particular man, it's, it's disgusting.

It's disgusting from, from Pike like II I really, it's, yeah, it's one of the very few times that we see Pike make a pretty disastrous decision, right?

Nobody's perfect.
Pike is definitely referred to as the boy scout a lot.

Um And this was definitely one of the rare times that he made a really bad judgment call for sure.

Um You guys said a lot of amazing things about this.
I don't want to touch too much on this because you guys said it perfectly.

Um I do want to touch on Spock and Chapel because we're not going to talk about it too much.

Um And the fact that Spock was a petty bitch uh in this episode, um I was, I was, everybody knows throughout the season, I am a rare they don't, there are not too many of them out there.

Spock Chapel Shipper.

This episode finally got me off the train when he was like, like he was like, oh, you know, I just like, I want to be there for you and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and he's not getting the point and I'm like, dude, you need to fuck off like you just need to go away.

This is so petty.

This is so bad, like stop like this is about her right now.

Not about you.

His exact line was you need time away from me.

And I'm just like, dude, this is not ninth grade, that's how it felt on.

Um I really, I'm off spa um Goodbye.

Uh The last thing I want to touch on because we're not going to talk about it that much either just because of like everything else that happened in this episode.

Thank God for una in this episode, right?
Who does read the ship?
And you know, in a rare current is the one to be like we need to change.

Course, I don't know how you're not seeing it, Chris, but this crew is mentally fucked up right now and, and I think Pike even tries to question her but she's like, no, like it's not OK, like our crew is hurting and we need to go and he listen, you know, a point down for him, but also a point up for trusting in his first officer accepting the course change.

Um I thought that was a really a really good move.

I don't know if anybody else wants to touch on, on those subjects before we move on real quick.

Spock.
Seriously Spock seriously sucks.
Like I know we said we weren't going to talk about it much in this episode.

But like I like that in this episode that he was playing more of like the supporting role to Chapel, but he was such a little dramatic bitch in this and like, I just cannot like with this, like, what the fuck Spock and una I'm, I, I'm really angry that we're not getting more una this season.

Like we had, we had like that really good first, that really good second episode and it does feel like we've gotten back to the uno's kind of fading into the background and, and even this, like, she had that really good scene, but it was kind of just that really good scene and I want, I want more una just give her to me because she's so good.

Yeah.

Fair.

Uh Let's see.

Cake, women taking breaks from Spock set him off, I guess.

Oh yeah.

Good point.

Good point.

But he asked her for a time uh post he's funeral.

So he knows the concept of asking for space.

So, yeah, it goes both ways, buddy.

Like come on, come on.

Yeah.

Uh Let's talk about the butcher of uh throughout the episode either from Ortega's bad feelings which let's face it.

She may have not like been the best in this episode, but she knows her gut and her gut was right.

Like, you know, obviously things that she heard too or also information given to us during the flashbacks.

Um and then do sparring session as well.
We hear how jag um or sorry, how um do committed all of these atrocities, right? Ordering his own, his own people, killed, killing civilians.
Um, and it did all turn out to be true.
Right.
Like Dora is the epitome of a coward.
Right.

Like he is just the worst.

Um, he also, you know, escaped off world while his men died for him, basically, which is like the most un klingon thing that you could possibly do.

Um, but it was also em, bega who was the butcher though.

That's more of a mental, like, I'm the butcher because I went and killed all these Klingons.

Whether he was actually the butcher or not is, you know, up for debate.

Um But he does, he, he, after seeing these innocents killed, right?

Including Children, uh civilians, comrades, people, he literally just did surgery on, right?

Um He goes dark and, and hunts down.

He, he, as he says, he finishes the mission, um, and butchers men in the process in a very graphic flashback scene.

What, what did we think about going and, and finishing the mission? Oh, ok.
Well, go ahead, Rianna.
Thanks, thanks.

Um No, I, I want to talk first about the sparring session about the, um, this really like highly charged scene.

I thought some blades were going to be thrown earlier. To be honest.
I thought it was gonna be grabbed off.
Yeah.

No, totally.

Um, but it, I couldn't help but think about conscience of the king in the original series because this is Kirk facing cos it's the same way that is facing um facing raw.

And so I think it's really interesting because it has like a very similar feel to me to when

Kirk is like playing the literal tapes that Kodo said and like, here's your, your whole speech, dude, like this is exactly your voice pattern, that kind of thing.

He's kind of asking these leading questions.

And so I thought I, I thought it was so cool that then men manga is asking like, who fought back the hardest, you know, like kind of asking these leading questions of like, what an odd thing to ask, you know, like out of context, it seems very random, but like, actually I watched this episode twice today.

So on my second viewing, I was like, oh OK, like this makes a lot more sense of why he's asking these questions and saying when you, you watch Conscience Of the King, you're like, OK, Kirk obviously knows this is Codo, but like he's seeing how much Koto is willing to give how much of that morality is left if at all.

And so I think that's really interesting.
It's sort of a like, are you gonna tell the truth to me right now?

Like, is this gonna be a moment where you come clean and say you were a coward raw or are you just gonna continue to say?

Oh, yeah, I fought them all. I killed them.

Um I made my choices now, let's live in the moment, let's live in peace, you know, like Kodo kind of have the same mentality, which is just terrifying.

Um And so I really thought that was an interesting, like, take that they did.

And of course there's so many episodes that this, that this episode is talking about in Trek because Star Trek does Star Trek, you know, in the best ways we get to see these, um, over and over again.

But yeah, as far as like Mbenga sort of being the butcher and uh having these innocents killed and everything.

Like I think for me, I see it as very much a manga being pushed in all these directions with barely any autonomy the entire time that we're seeing this episode.

Chappel is the only one who gives him space, gives him like moments to choose. Pike doesn't give him a choice.
Really.

The Andorian we see in the flashbacks gives him basically no choice, like guilt trips him into it.

Um It's clear they have a history with whatever assignments he might have sent him on.

Um We also see that raw is giving him no choice during these moments, their first, their little sparring session and then their the final scene.

And so I think that I, I really hate to see how like raw keeps throwing jag in MGA'S face, you know, and keeps sort of bringing this up and pushing MGA and I just, I feel so deeply for him because he has so little autonomy in these moments.

And especially with all of this stuff being brought up again, all of his ptsd being completely like flaring up again.

You can see that this is just another moment where he's feeling trapped.

He's feeling like, am I gonna have to do this all over again?

Like, am I going to have to revert to how I was during the war when I had no autonomy?

I had no freedom really to choose where I go what I do, who I kill or don't kill, you know, kind of thing.

And it's, it's so complicated and I think the way they did the flashback scenes were really, of course, like graphic but also really amazing in a way, like, really well done.

I like, I think it's so important, you know, in a way, like if you're not doing violence for violence sake, you know, if you're doing it for a purpose, which they are here, I think it's, it's important to add in.

So, yeah, lots of thoughts.

But this is definitely, it just hits really hard for me because I see that lack of autonomy that Minga has and as much as we all want to like, maybe blame him or uh obviously like, yeah, he did terrible things but also like war changes people like he said, you know, and he didn't want to be changed.

But of course, you're going to be like all of this stuff is good about the people he murdered, murdered.

Yeah, like I love him and it's just very interesting. So, yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I didn't even think about that.

I mean, he or, um, and like, did have a choice.

He could have not chosen to spar and even Ros says, I'm surprised you showed up.

I'm surprised he showed up too.

I couldn't believe, I think like, uh, like what Hawk was saying?

it was kind of a red herring just like with the, you know, toxic dose of the, the weed that I was getting the parsley.

Yeah.
Um Yeah, I thought it was another red herring.

I also thought I saw this on Twitter afterward that during the sparring session they're wearing those red outfits.

It's similar to what Kirk and Charlie X wear in the episode and I was like, that level of reference is almost beyond me.

I thought I was very impressed by that. Um uh Yeah.
OK.

So with Raw I, Rihanna, it's amazing how we're related because I was actually thinking in regards to the dinner scene, this would be like asking Kirk to have dinner with Codo, like see how he does in this situation.

Um Same thing with and Raw.
Um I, and you know, we were talking about how he's so is like kind of gross. You know, he's like just talking about peace and you just don't trust him.

I couldn't help but think about gold du in his, like, I'm a cult leader era, you know, where he seems very like peace and love and I understand the world now and I understand my sins and what's wrong with me.

Scariest. Yes. Absolutely.

The most unhinged and, yeah.
So I couldn't help but think about that.

It's not quite that level because we haven't seen, we do get this visceral visceral flashback, uh seeing about all the Children dying, but we don't actually see raw like making like giving those orders in the flashback.

So I have a little bit of problems or I have a little problem connecting with like how bad the atrocities were.

Um But again, the flashback I think does enough of a job to, to get you there.

Um Yeah, I, I don't know, I, I think uh it kind of goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning where Raw hates Klingon culture and he is a coward.

We know.
And so I think he's trying to justify like, well, I hate Klingon culture.

I don't subscribe to it because what I did was not Klingon and it's something I'm ashamed of.

So if I don't believe in it, then I'm absolved of sin. So it's fine.

Uh Yeah, I, I thought it, I thought all of this was just beautifully written um great performances.

And I also wanted to note that I read an article on uh cinema blend that has a little interview with um with the director from Jeffrey Bird.

Yeah, a good friend.

That's a great article.

Yeah.

And I just said talk about the end of your question about like, um, the actual, like, murder that we see behind the frosted glass.

Like, they apparently shot multiple versions of that and they didn't, they didn't know which one was going to be the winner, you know, but they ended up going with behind the glass because it was the most.

Um, like it leaves it up to the imagination almost and you get these conflicting answers with what Chappell is saying.

So I just thought that was interesting that he even considered making like multiple versions of the end of this episode.

Yeah, I agree.

Um Before we move on, I Michael Kan has a point, I think in order to keep going to the discussion, we have to make clear because I think I may have screwed it up too and it's true.

Um The butcher of jag name was not because of the crimes against civilians on jag.

It was the name given by the Klingons to the killer of the three ranking klingon officers that were guarding do.

So I just want to make that clear. Um Were you good, Ashly Hawk?

Um So yeah, I'd like to talk about the sparring scene because that really stood out to me.

Um It was kind of like one of the first indicators that something was definitely very wrong with him.

On a part because it wasn't the fact that he agreed to it at all.

And that, especially after the dinner and that, and the way raw kept reaching out to him and like, you know, just stopped him on the way out.

You know, it, it almost very intrusively, you know, going back to like, you know, how nobody will give an agency or autonomy.

But the sparring session was uncomfortable in the fact that like I am bea was participating on in it but really holding back and almost like he was measuring him up.

Um He absolutely was right.

Yeah, me several times letting him get that, letting himself get bested and put to the ground by raw.

It was almost like he was trying to base, there was a point where it's like when he was on the ground raw had was standing over him and that it's like you could almost see like a flash of like the real person behind the mask and that coming out there.

But in Bega, like he played that like he, he was really kind of working out like, you know, how good is this guy as a fighter?

Right?

And I keep thinking towards the end because when we actually get to the end, I'll love, but he went in there with a, with an, with an agenda, you know, obviously Rod did too in that because like the insistence and like trying to like recruit him to his side and not to be some sort of an ally and that in his campaign as a, you know, an, an ambassador and a new man of peace, you know, and basically using this guy, he traumatized to, you know, accomplish his goal.

But it was really uncomfortable for me watching this with him because part of me knew like he had a plan there.

He was, he was, he prodding him for information, uh testing out his fighting skills and that, and seeing where his weak points were like, I, that's what I, I garnered from that sparring session, which kind of makes me wonder.

I know like he does suffer from PS PTSD and that, but what's that decision towards the end?

More about, you know, uh, an effect of the PTSD or is it just like, just pure vengeance he was after?

I don't think it had anything to do with pure vengeance.
I think that he saw civilians and, and Children get killed people. He, he just worked on and the Klingons had the base, right? Like they were going to destroy it.
They were basically going to glass your gall.
Everybody was going to die pretty much.
Chappel.

Everybody that was there were not going to make it unless someone did something about it and I think he did what needed to be done and Chappel spurred him on, that's for sure.

Yeah, she didn't hold him back.
I think I'm not, I'm not going to say that there's absolutely zero revenge in there.

There certainly is like you do open heart surgery.

You have that conversation with that kid and then you see him die yet.

Like I'm gonna, I'm maybe gonna want some revenge too.

But I think as someone who cherishes life, he knew everybody was going to die unless he killed Doc Rock, right?

Who obviously was a coward and fled, but he did what needed to be done. Sorry, go ahead MC.
Uh I'm gonna bring, bring up the siege of um A R 558.
Again.

Uh these were, and specifically, um we have cork uh to, you know, talking about, you know, the, the Federation officers and basically what they turn into.

Uh and we have that one officer in it who's collecting the Ketrail white. So, you know, basically like doing like the whole human ear thing.

But, you know, with things from the, and I think that manga has elements of this through being stuck on jag for just, you know, this extended period of time and seeing, you know, all of these people that he is working on being killed.

So I think it's part vengeance part just like desperation.

I, I don't think you can say that it is one thing I think that it is a lot of different things.

I mean, like we're gonna, I think get a little bit more into it.

That being said, I'm not the biggest fan of the reveal, like I'm trying to justify, I'm, I'm, I'm actually not a fan of the reveal at all.

Um I'm trying to justify it in universe because it's like this is what they've presented to us, but I don't love that.

This is the, the way that they decided to go in this episode.

Um Especially when the, like when he was setting off to do the mission on that he, it's, it's, it's kind of like he was, it seemed like they were directing him more like an as an action hero or John Rambo or somebody, right?

And it was, it's just like, it's not a good, it was not a good look for it. Yeah.

And in terms, i, the sparring session, I think I, yeah, um I agree with Hawk and that there's a lot of sizing up going on there.

Uh And I, I find this a very interesting, like the Dina between um Raw and, and I've kind of summed it up with two quotes from uh uh the original series, uh Raw is all in a different reality.

I could have called a friend and manga is from hell's heart.

I stab at the love that.

Um And, but yeah, through the sparring session and mega is trying to figure out like what is going on with this guy, which is why and I've been debating with Julian about this for days at this point.

Um I'm pretty sure that that accidental kill was not only murder but kind of premeditated. We're gonna get there, we're gonna get there.

Um, before I give my thoughts because I'll, I'll talk about it more when we talk about this next point because I think we do need to bring it up.

Um, I want to mention Jeffrey Beard, who, who is, uh, the director of this episode also a protege of Spike Lee's.

Um, he's worked on a lot of racially charged films, right?
We're talking about how this maybe didn't um, paint and bang uh in the best light, right?

Um There's definitely an argument that this episode suffers from the scary angry black man trope, right?

Um What do we, what do we think about that?

Given the nature of this episode?

I, I kind of felt like you're talking about the John Rambo feel I, I really saw as they, like, they were trying to paint him as an action hero and I, I kind of thought I was like, wow, that's, that's kind of bad ass that he was able to do that and like, save everybody.

Um I didn't have any thoughts about this.

Could possibly be a controversial move that they made until later, you know, I'm seeing the reactions.

Um So for me, I, I really have enjoyed seeing em Bea's Journey throughout this season.

I loved seeing him in episode one.

I love that they're bringing back the side of him now to really get more depth.

Um So to me it's uh and, and seeing that he's probably being manipulated by section 31 I feel like um this is the move for him.

So I don't, I don't know.

Yeah, I think um it's so hard as a like white person, you know, to, to have a, a great perspective on this.

But I do think that like, maybe also this is why we should have had more tega because it didn't have to just be like sort of like we have the, the red shirt guy who is a person of color.

We have, we have uh raw, you know, we have a lot of black people who are like injuring each other, you know, and there's a lot of black on black violence which I don't love.

And so I think if Ortegas could have had a bigger role, if we could have brought in just like more of the crew to maybe even more Chappel.

Chappel had a great role in this.
I think that obviously she didn't go through what men manga went through. They have different like types of trauma and stuff.

But um my, my partner did say she was like, you know, this is like, I didn't see it as being that controversial, but also like all of the black people definitely moved the action of the story, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

But in this context, it can't be, you know, and I think that they're really telling this line, this is also Star Trek.

We've made a lot of decisions like this.
I mean, I don't know how far beyond the Stars was received when it came out.

You know, like it's, it, I'm sure that there's been episodes like this, that people are like you went too far, you did this or that, you know, and this is kind of Star Trek pushing the

envelope as they tend to do, which I think is always better to try and to make these points and to talk about tough things than just every episode being a musical episode or a crossover.

You know, I mean, that's the beauty of Star Trek is that you can have these really in depth episodes that, that challenge you a little bit and I don't see that as a big problem, but again, I'm a white person so like, I don't have much authority in this matter.

Like, I it's important to remember that the perceptions matter in that.

And we're talking about like one of only, you know, a handful of people of color who are cast members on the show.

And that, and that's what happened is it leaves a lasting impression, not only on like the character and that and going forward and that, but our perceptions of him.

Um and we're, we are dealing with like a, a perception that, you know, can make a simple traffic stop or detainment on the street, like for, uh, an African American or a person of color and that turned deadly at any moment, you know, and it's that perception or preconception is that black men can't control their tempers, you know.

And the guy I remember season from season one was not that that person, not in season two.

And like everything they, they've talked about with the clean out war seems to, it kind of pushed that perception too much and I don't like it because it's, he's his legacy character.

And, you know, it's like we're, we're going, you know, we have to live with him for the next several seasons going forward.

And, um, I just, I think it's, I think it's damaging.

I don't think it's a good look for this character, you know, especially considering that, like, everything I've seen and that points to the, that he took, he murdered raw.

I honestly believe that.
So, um, and I think this is, you know, kind of what, you know, Hawk was touching on.

Um, you know, when it comes to something like Star Trek, I think, like, ok, uh, definitely when I was watching this episode, like I was picking up on the, it was making me uncomfortable seeing Vega in just these viscerally violent, like, more violent than we've ever seen on strange new worlds before.

And I think in most Star Trek, this is, this was one of the most violent scenes of him

being the butcher and that's, that's something very jarring.
And this is like one of the only black characters that we have in strange new worlds.

And I mean, yes, we have Jeffrey Bird directing it and he's a protege of Spike Lee's and, uh, you know, Spike Lee certainly has done, you know, rightfully charged stuff in his movies.

But also that's a very, you know, black cast.

And if you look at, you know, the movies that Jeffrey Bird has done also very black cast.

So, you know, that kind of information hit, it hits a lot differently.

Um, also, you know, something that I haven't brought up, uh because it actually just, you know, shot right through my brain.

Uh everything that's going on with bea is very reminiscent of, um, you know, the, the black soldiers who were experimented on.

Uh, and, you know, that's talked about in, um, Falcon and the Winter Soldier or alluded to.

But the problem is, you know, they kind of like, you know, you can like see it out of the corner of your eye, but it's not like they actually address it.

It's not like it's, you know, you know, framed as being a bad thing.

In fact, everything is put onto manga in this.

So, you know, it's, you know, this, it was manga who did this.

It's, you know, not every, every, you know, well, it is, you know, war is bad, you know, it makes you think but it's not, um I'm, I'm not sold in how it was framed.

Iii I feel like, uh it was a disservice to the character and I, I didn't really like it. I think that they could have done something more interesting with that.

You know, what would have definitely served this story better is if this tailor of revenge was used, was given to more of a cut out or a one off character, you know, like, you know, keep the NGA in story in focus and that, but like to put him in with this with the killing at the end, you know, it could have been the the same story could have been better served if they had had a one off who was actually responsible for the murder.

At the end.

I had actually wondered like what if they had done this episode?
And they had like one of those other people like hurt uh raw and then has to treat him. Hm.

Yeah, I know that they were talking about last night on Discovery Pod, like where you were saying, Hawk, like maybe a background character or Mariah, I think even suggested, you know what if this was Chappel like doing this too, right?

Which would have been interesting.

Um I got to go kind of with what Ashton was saying and a little bit of what Rianna was saying too, like I'm listen, I'm a white man.

I'm a privileged white man. So I don't, I don't pick up on it. Um, I did not see it.

I understand how it could definitely be taken that way, but I did look at him as, you know, an action hero and more not even an action hero, just this being a story about what war does to people.

And that was the one thing I had throughout my mind the entire time watching it both times and after, after the episode was over, speaking about it with my wife like that, this is just like, you know, war, you know, makes you do really desperate things at really desperate times.

And I think it's actually a really unique take for, for and a, a unique, um, you know, development with, with his story.

Um, because I do think that, yeah, ok, it's definitely revenge field but it's also he, you know, we talk about saving lives, you know, he is a doctor and he is saving lives by going to kill these Klingons, right?

Because if he doesn't, if someone doesn't, because everybody else is dead, all the soldiers were dead.

If he doesn't do this, they're all dead.

And I, I keep going back to that point and then as far as the murder III I again, I go back to what Ashton was saying about the cinema, cinema blend article.

This could be taken a few different ways like Hawke thinks it's murder, I think MC think

it's murder.

I don't think it was murder I think it was self-defense.

I think no matter what I does, MGA want this guy dead.

Sure.

And we're gonna talk, let you know what?

Actually, let's just get into it.

Right.

Because let's do it.

The episode concludes right with, with Doc wanting to speak with Mbeki.

He walks into his sick bay.

Um, he tells the klingon repeatedly to leave and to leave him alone and said, Doc Rock continues to try and convince Emba to see his points of view.

And even though mbe is calling out all of the hard things that he did and he's like, you know, you're, you're playing a saint, even though you're, you know, you're a cow, he's like people need saints.

Um And at one point, Dora puts his hands on MGA leading to the two fighting. Uh And ultimately MGA does stab and kill.
Do, um I personally think it's self defense.
We're obviously going to have a conversation about that.

Uh Chappe tells Pike that she saw the whole thing, which isn't entirely true. Uh Whether we know that or not.

That was also in the article, we don't quite know if she did see the, the whole thing or not.

Um And then leading to a really powerful conversation between pike and, and be thoughts on the conclusion guys and you're up.

Oh man, this is such an interesting way to end this episode.

I think a couple of quotes I wanna pull out here.

Um first of all, like you said, Julian, um using the blood on my hands to make yourself a saint.

And Ross says people need saints.

You know, he's sort of building up this wall of lies and that he's constructed so beautifully for star fleet to fall right into in the Federation.

I mean, literally MGA calls out the Federation and the um he said, I knew the dip or the diplomatic corps knew who he was and still let him represent the Federation, you know.

And so as I'm watching this scene unfold and watching Minga repeatedly say, please leave, please.

At one point, he uses his begging hands. He goes like this.

And I think in a way like if M Mango were chapel or a woman or something like, absolutely, I would have thought like I would have, there would have been no question in a lot of our minds.

This is self defense because if, if a man put, put his hands on me, you know, I'm pulling a knife like I don't care if he just touched my shoulder while I'm telling him to leave, while repeatedly begging, you know.

And so I think the fact that like, hm M you know, he's a strong man, he can handle himself kind of thing still doesn't negate the fact that Rob put his hands on him.

And like was there was something happening where he was trying, he was showing aggression and Meena, I think who is already in a triggered state already having these flashbacks throughout the entire episode to what he did in the past is sort of like almost reverting, you know, like you, this is, you are attacking me.

So I'm gonna defend myself.

And I really think that like, II I just, I can't see a lot of fault in this loki, my girlfriend and I were like, yeah, stab it.

Let's go.

Like we want to see this dude dead, you know, and obviously that's the whole crux of the story, like with Pike's conversation, conversation afterwards.

Um But, you know, I think that both of them bring up great points and it's sort of again what we were talking about at the beginning of this sort of starfleet happy go lucky view versus the like wartime Klingon front view because they're so, so different.

And Pike really wants to believe in the best of the best and think that all of his officers are always going to be Federation first um that they're always going to be leading with the Federation like tenants in mind, but not when you see someone like raw.

You know, I mean, this is someone who will bring out the worst in people and it's bringing out the worst in BEA, it's bringing out the worst in chapel like Ortega, everyone who he comes to contact with, who they know what he's done and know that they could never forgive personally, like, like Una said they're all on their own journey and they're all not gonna act like Starfleet right now.

And so I just think it's insane that like no one was looking out for maybe raw trying to come up and confront Manana.

First of all, like the thing that pisses me off almost more than pike ordering Menga basically to dinner is the fact that when he hears that Meninga was attacked with self defense.

The first thing he says when he comes to see him is, oh, the arms filing report, I'm like, if my bestie was getting attacked and killed someone in self defense, I'd come running and be like, are you ok?

What do you need?
I'm giving you leave.
Let's like, go to your quarters.
Let's get out of the space.
Like, what do you need?
Not laws filing a report.
Let's talk about ethics for about 10 minutes.
Like, seriously, it's the wrong time.
They're military, they're military.
Whether people want to say star fleet is not a military or not, they're a military, right? Um Yeah.

Can I just touch on what you're saying real quick because it's a great point too. Like so many different mistakes are made here, right?
And I'm not saying this is like he's a dangerous man.
He should have security detail.

It's Star Trek tradition in history, like every single episode of Star Trek we've ever seen when an enemy race is on board the ship that they have a security detail, right?

Like why is Dora being allowed to just roam the ship and walk into sick bay of someone who is like obviously not a fan of this guy, like mistakes kind of made all around by command at the highest level command on the ship.

Like, so what you're saying is he needed to have the staff of raw. I get back.
I am I am stop.
Are you, are you kidding me?

You raise a good point like about that?

Like, why wasn't he more, was that like, defectors in general are not, you know, it's, they're not treated like, you know, the celebrity that like the Raw is and that like there was a series recently in that uh called a Spy Among Friends and that dealt with the real life uh defector, Kim Kim Philby, he was a British spy, but who was also like spying for the Soviets on his own people.

And that, and he ended up like, you know, he, when he was found out he had to, he went to Russia to live, uh you know, his life, there was basically constant surveillance.

They took care of him.

They gave him everything on that.

But they also had like, you know, they were, they had somebody live in with him and that he was, he was phone calls and everything were surveilled and that they're not people who are, you know, defectors are not trusted, you know, by the people who, who they defect to or by anybody else at that point.

Made ambassadors, remember LA and Mega were the ones sparring together.
So why isn't she just like a natural part of these barring sessions, you know, like, as a

neutral party as someone who can kind of watch the security officer how, how easy this ability to put so many, er, in this game?

Yeah.

Yes.

Sorry, I was just gonna say this one quote.

Um that is a, he says you have the of believing what's best in people.

And I think that's the, like the thesis sort of, of this episode is that difference between the Starfleet people and the people who have been in the war.

Uh I love what everybody's saying.

I, I think I just have to bring up again the importance of Bega saying like, leave me alone, stop.

No, no, no.

That and I think in his mind he genuinely believes like that is ra's version of starting the fight is by not letting him leave.

Like that is, it's seen as the first strike against him, but I want to bring up that he literally brought the knife that he used to murder the other generals.

Like to this, to this journey.

Like he, he literally brought the knife in with him.

So like what is going on?

Why if you didn't have the, and like I get OK, let me, let me back up.

So many thoughts are flying through me.

Um, if you were, if you know that you're going to feel threatened in the presence of someone, I would bring a phaser, you know, as a Starfleet officer maybe.

But is that too hostile?
I don't know, would that set him off? Um, ask like a neutral party to be there?

But the fact that he brought the knife that he used to commit those murders is a little sketchy and I know he's going through like he's revisiting all of this past and all of this trauma.

Um But I thought it really hammered home when they're doing the like, blood analysis on the knife.

And it's kind of poetic that all four of those uh like him raw and then all of his people below him, like all their blood is on that knife.

I just, I, I don't know how I feel about it.

I don't know what Emo is thinking like bringing that to the fight.

Um The Right.

Trying to make sure I'm good.

I forget the name of that dagger.

That's not me.

No.

What carries is a mec left.

I forget what the, the, the one that clicks from the search response.

I forget the name of it to be fair.

He didn't bring it to the fight.

It was in, it was in like, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Horrors trophies.

I mean, I just, just real quick to counterpoint that like so many Starfleet officers, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is obviously debatable.

Like, uh, Shaw had like a bunch of daggers, right?
Like in his quarters, like, who knows where the fuck those are from?

Like, whether it's fucked up or not, like, people collect trophies and, uh, whether it's a reminder of the bad shit he did or if it was a trophy or he did actually plan on killing doc ra at some point.

Yeah.
Yeah, Lorca has all those weapons of his weapons. Yeah.

Um, and then my thoughts about the pike scene, I, I don't know, agree, like so many missteps, I also kind of think pike is, you know, he, he references like how long they've known each other.

Um, but clearly he just has no idea like what MGA is going through this whole time.

And I, I think under the guise of this, like, oh, the report is being filed, like, under the, like military esque things he has to do.

Um, I think he is genuinely, like, shocked that mega could ever possibly commit this kind of murder.

And I think he's making sure like, oh, you know, like the things you did during the war are excused because it was in the war.

Um, you know, we have veterans on this ship.
We know that people had to kill others um, in service of the Federation.

But also the stuff that happens on my own ship is a concern to me and I also couldn't help.

But thinking like if this had happened on Pard ship, like this would be an absolute catastrophe.

I know it's a completely different time, but I'm even thinking like the wave that this kind of news would generate throughout the Federation would be shocking.

I, I can't believe that they are able to kind of throw it under the rug. I guess it perpetuates like, well, Klingons are murder.

So of course there was a murder, like no one's second guessing it, I guess, I just wonder and I don't think we will ever hear again, like the repercussions of this.

Um And if it's ever brought up, but it's, it's extremely shady that a death occurred on the

enterprise.

You know, II, I just couldn't believe they were able to be so calm about this whole situation in the end.

I, I forget who said it in the chat.

But it's interesting that we even got to this point because you're talking about the future and this happening up a card ship.

It's funny how things are, like, also evolved with the Klingons because if this was like Wharf, for example, like, and this was Ds Nine, I know someone in that chat said, like, do would be dead like Wharf would have 100% off him.

Like no question.

And we wouldn't even be in this position.

Right.

So, well, and there was a whole episode where Wharf killed someone.

Was it Ds nine and goes like, you can't do that or he was gonna kill his brother, he killed, he got away with murder.

It was totally, it was totally sketched that that box was in the in sick pay at that time. Absolutely.
And containing a dagger that goes back to the Klingon War.

And you know, like with DNA evidence that was still on it, like this is the other kind of big problem in, in this episode, it was regards to messaging and perceptions and the fact that if it was self defense.

So like, yeah, we see, we see, we literally see em Banka turn away from that box when the confrontation begins, right?

Yeah, everything else gets obscured after that.

But the this conflict only lasts like for mere seconds and that, and then that knife made its way out of that box and into Ro's chest.

Um Ro didn't know that knife was there and this is why I, I this is why I'm leaning towards the fact that like, you know, and straight out and murdered the guy, but the knife itself and that, that contains the DNA evidence of like, you know, the, you know, the two

captains that were matching jet Jeff, was it Jeff?
And uh I can't remember Captain Reus or something.

Yeah, but the problem with this knife is that in representation, it's almost like a cop who keeps a drop piece in that when he shoots an unarmed suspect, this was this was the other thing that really kind of put me off on, on the episode at the end and the fact that, like, at the end, by the end of it, everybody was like, ok, I, this should have been a huge deal.

Right.
But even Pike is like, well, there'll probably be an inquiry in that.

But that's the other thing I wanted to say, someone actually said that, um, it's, it's maybe not that big of a deal because in one way you look at it, if Lare finds about out about this, she goes, thanks.

You're doing me a favor, the traitor and a coward.

So it's maybe not that big of a deal, maybe like within Starfleet, the fact that something like, like we were just talking about so many things had to have gone wrong for it to even get to this point.

That's where the problem is.

Yeah, I mean, I the Klingons are on the show, they're fine with this, right Starfleet considering like, uh all the, you know, all those orders that went down the line when he was first like brought to the ship and that how everybody was supposed to, you know, be courteous and, you know, show the guy, you know, show the guy respect and that star fleet had a lot invested in him, you know, and the fact that he, he's dead now aboard the flagship of the enterprise and that it should be huge, but it feels like it's just kind of being swept under the rug.

And I think that's the other big problem with the messaging at the end of this episode and why some people are going to be very angry with it.

MC I have thoughts and feelings.

Um, in terms of the dagger, I know we've talked about how, you know, you know, people, you know, collect fucked up things, people have trophies.

It was a locked away dagger that and it's not like he has it out on display.

He, he took it out specifically opened it up, closed it up again and then it somehow got involved in this, the, this argument with, with and in terms of him begging to leave, I

think it's, it's specifically because, and be God knows like he's on the brink of killing this guy.

He's like, I'm begging you to leave or else I'm going to fucking kill you.

Um Because I mean, yes, it's not right to put hands on anybody but it's not, you know, Rob put a hand on his shoulder.

It's not like he, he would, I, I'm not seriously not trying to justify, you know, touching anybody when they don't want.

But it's not like he was, you know, hitting uh you know, he was not, it, it was mbanga who, who's um start, it was MGA who started the fight in the med bay.

We don't start the fight.

We, we kind of do though because like, why confront raw with the, with the truth at that point, why is raw in pay in the first place?

Raw was on his way home.

He was, he was about to leave that ship.

And that I feel like, like I said, I think ra had this, felt this really weird connection with uh like kind of saw like this kindred spirit and honestly kind of did like, they're these people who both, you know, even if at the very end, uh ra was cowardly.

He was, you know, uh on, he, he did there was terrible things that happened.

So both uh and ra experienced just horrific things and this one event is what turned the is kind of what turned I know be was kind of leaning towards peace before that.

But they're, they're both living a lie because Ra is the one who is, you know, saying that he did this and Vega is not saying that he did it.

And I mean, yeah, doesn't know this but I think in some way, you know, he can almost feel it.

So yeah, there's this intrigue with mbanga and I mean, like there, there would, it's, it's not like he, you know, is like trying to get, you know, trying to hurt mbanga so that Mbango won't tell the truth.

Um So yeah, we don't see, we don't see him be start it, but it's just kind of the feeling that I get from this especially when we get to the conversation with Chris because he's, when he's talking to Pike, he's like, I didn't start the fight, but I'm glad I've finished it.

He's not talking about the fight in Sick Bay. He's talking about the fight in the Klingon War.

He's like, he didn't start the Klingon War but he's, but he's glad that he finished it in Sick Bay because he, you know, had unfinished business having not killed.

Uh um I'm not crazy with like, I mean, I think that did a murder and I'm not happy with it.

Uh And I'm also not happy with Christine covering it up because the way it was acted for me seemed like there was a lot of lying going on that, you know, Christine knew exactly what happened and she's blatantly covering it up.

I don't love it.
Uh I understand it but also I don't love it.

Um So yeah, and also uh and I know Julian super disagrees with me on Super uh super disagrees with me but uh and Mega did more damage uh to uh Federation and Klingon relations than Michael Burnham.

I but Michael Burham didn't do anything to cling on relations.

That's I mean that all the people that blame Michael for shit like need to just fuck off for one like Michael didn't start to cling on to did.

I mean, as much as this, as much as is a fraud, he has done good things like I mean, and I mean, because I mean, we hear talk about it at the beginning of the episode.

He's, he's done a lot of, he's done a lot of stuff as an ambassador and certainly the Federation has a lot of, you know, faith in him.

I'm not saying that that justifies them, you know, you know, trotting at this, you know, war criminal.

But as we see things are going to be bad for the federation for 30 fucking years with the Klingons, like it's gonna be super, super bad.

So, um and even if uh Doc Rod does not have a good relationship with the Klingons, he still knows, you know, Klingon customs and culture that he can teach to the federation that they don't know things that they can use.

And that's probably what's been the mostly what's been going on that he's been telling them this is how you handle the Klingons.

So that's just my opinion.

So I'm gonna go right into Doc Ros should never ever, ever, ever been allowed to enter that Sick Bay period.

Going back to my former 0.2 ever said, well, maybe like was premeditating his murder.

The only way that this happens is if Doc Rock comes into Sick Bay and Bea is not going to go on the enterprise, nothing in this episode or anything about his character tells me that he's going to go walk the quarters, hunt down Doc Rock, take the stagger and stab him through the heart.

It's just sorry. No.

Um And then going back exactly to what Rihanna said multiple times e exact quotes and the way he says it now, please go away.

You shouldn't be here in the first place and now I'm asking you to go away. Second, please going like this.
Leave me alone.
I don't want you here and then uh to a point yes, maybe, maybe you can interpret. Why couldn't you just leave me alone as OK?

Like I've asked you nicely.
You fucked with me.
I'm gonna kill you.
I don't take it that way.
That one line maybe I can interpret that way. It's self-defense, it's murder, it's not murder. Wow, Ferd and slip.

Uh I should never have been there and be one also. He didn't have any of the, the what was it called? The 12, right?

Klingons are stronger, right?

Klingons are stronger.

So if he's sparring with this guy, we saw Doc Roth throw him around already, right?

He does have to self-defense whether he's trying to hold him back or not too as far as doc doing good.

We talked about this at the beginning of the episode.
Doc ra like Starfleet should never have made doc raw a an ambassador. Yes.

The United States made ex Nazis scientists and used them on like the Manhattan project which is fucked in itself or you know, use them for other shit, but they were never made fucking ambassadors never.

And you know what happened to them afterwards?

They were put on trial trial by Israel and the United States.

Ok.

Like whether he, he wants to do good is like, yeah, whatever you do, you're not an ambassador.

Like, yeah, teach us some stuff.
But like, dude should be on trial and he should definitely not be an ambassador. So, um yeah, I just, I don't, I don't think it's murder.
I thought that the conversation with Pike and him was really powerful.
Um I don't know where the relationship goes from here.
Um Yeah.
No.
Uh but that's what I love about this episode.
Jeffrey Bird said like this conversation is exactly what he wanted to happen.

Is it murder?

Is it not that's left for us to decide and debate and that's what we just did and I thought it was a really good conversation.

So, yeah, Julian, I want to mention one more point too that it's also Mga's Sick Bay.

Like this is another thing is, it's, it's as if say Ra came on the bridge and started confronting pike and Pike is like leave, please leave.

You know, like we're thinking about that, you know, that this is he is this, he's the literal chief medical officer, this is his sick bay, his domain and Rock comes in and does all this disrespecting, does all this like crossing of his a million boundaries that has been putting up this entire goddamn episode and it's just like that makes me even more furious that he can do his sick bay to do this.

He doesn't have access to a hypo spray or any other. We're, we're gonna use the war crime knife.
No, just, no, no hypo spray.
Just the war crime knife right away.

I don't know.
Final thoughts on this episode. Anybody free for all anybody.

Oh, well, I'm so curious about this discussion about raw as being an ambassador because as you said, I think you said Haven says this, this chain of um he is kind of pointless like from a Klingon side, no one wants him as an ambassador.

Like he's a, he's a coward, he's a traitor. Um He's not an effective ambassador.

I I feel like to be an effective ambassador, you have to have like good relations on both sides.

So if anything. Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you even to an extent, you know.

Um And so I think he's completely just a figurehead that the federation just needs to say, hey, look, this Klingon is here.

He's nice.
Everybody, look at him and we're at peace now like isn't this great?

But he's not actually doing anything like, yeah, he can talk to humans and he can maybe change some of their perspectives on like, oh yeah, this is a different type of Klingon to people who have had, you know, bad dealings with Klingons and bad conceptions.

I guess that is valuable but from a, it doesn't outweigh how, how crazy it is at all. So, I, yeah, I'm just fascinated by this and deeply confused.

Um, as usual by Starfleet, I do need to point out that the Klingons don't think he's a coward.

They think he's a traitor, but I think he murdered a whole bunch of people. They don't know which is worse.
Right on.
It's like if you're gonna be a traitor, like that's the way you be a traitor. Yeah.

True.

So one thing that we're gonna try just from listening to other shows and stuff that we've talked about, um, over the, over the course of a few days, we're going to move away from rating episodes.

Um, I think you could tell by the discussion kind of how each and everyone individually feels about the episode.

If you want to talk personally about how we feel you can reach us. We have great conversations that happen on our discord.
We are always reachable through D MS.

We love talking about this episode.
That's why we do it each and every week.

But we love getting your guys' opinions, which is why we are going to go to the Subspace to pull and mail bag and Hawk.

I didn't ask you before the show.

Did you get the numbers by chance?

I forgot to put them in five minutes.

Well, since you went and did that, would you be a darling and read our Subspace?

To poll this week, please.

I would love to.

We asked Trek Twitter, that's what we're calling it until the ship sinks what they thought of under the cloak of war.

And this is what they had to say.

64% said an honorable journey.

23% said rocked Geno worthy.

7% said room temp and 6 6% said alrighty.

Uh and we are gonna go into our mail bag.

So Hawkey went so MC, can you read Matt Harper's mail bag, please?

Matt Harker wrote this week's episode of Strange New Worlds is for me, potentially one of the most intense episodes of Trek ever.

I love the depth at which they explored in manga and Chapel's trauma and their struggles to keep it contained.

The twist was masterful and even more proof of why we need to support the writers. One last note, just two episodes left for more tega.
She is the final bridge crew to not have their own primary storyline.

I am ready indeed.

Uh I will go ahead and take Eric the Reds in the words of a famous Rieman War war.

I think I went out of order.

That's ok.

Rihanna and Nash can go next.

Um Ramon War War never changes.

This was a great but difficult episode to digest.

I'm glad we got to see and Chapel's experience during the war and was surprised it was told via flashback.

The episode brought in hints of both undiscovered country and Ds nine, we even got more tega in this episode.

The ending is absolutely heartbreaking.

Even the Spock chapel scenes this week felt warranted as Spock is trying to understand the un understandable, a solid nine out of nine wreck to Genos.

Well said, and Rihanna, can you take Taras, please? And you get the honor.

Tara, one of Tara's traditions each week on our show show is that she writes an episode specific limerick.

So you get the honor of doing that, which is pretty cool. Oh my God, that's amazing.

Ok, Tara wrote, this was a moving portrayal of PTSD and I appreciate a strange new world's attempts to show us the trauma of war within a trek context.

But I did find the premise a bit hard to swallow a Klingon ambassador with history of war crimes at the stage of the Federation development if, if I put that aside.

However, it is an impressive episode that comes and comes at the right point between 207 and what might and what we might expect from 209.

I like the book and symbolism of the malfunctioning bio bed looking fixed but never

really being repaired.

And now a limerick that came to me more quickly than most.

The wise warrior avoids the battle.

Shinzi famously advised Meena tries to live this lesson but cannot avoid eventual compromise.

Chapel and Ortegas scars are still hellishly fresh and ambassador raw is actually a coward in the flesh.

But his pretense of peace turns into a catalyst for his ultimate demise. Poetry.
Awesome.
Love it.

That was beautiful.

I love giraffe.

Everybody's going with this theory right now.

Those bio beds have gourd in them.

Oh my God, baby.

Oh my God.

Oh, that's so that's gonna be 10, 10 people.

Uh Ashley, could you take Yum Yum Pods, please?

Yes.

Yum Yum Pod wrote it is so telling that this single episode could give us weight and depth to war while Discovery could not do that in the slightest.

Season two has been all over the place and quality for me.

But I have liked that the ambition has been higher than the last season and this episode really went in on some tough themes and deep character work.

I have been mixed on the fact that Erica's main character trait outside of quips has been bigotry throughout these last several episodes.

And if she was a better defined character, I'd probably be able to value what they are wanting to do with her.

But currently I'm just not there. I always shout this show out.

But if people are interested in a sci-fi series that really tackles the themes of war and the impact it has on those who serve, please check out space above and beyond.

Very nice.

Uh Back to you Hawk, can you take uh pref time travelers that prof time travelers, please?

Professor Time traveler?

Is that a community reference.

She's in the chat.

Uh Is that a community reference let us know, wrote finally a story about chapel that isn't about Spock or the search for.

And it only took them 18 episodes.

I can't help but feel like this episode was trying to do a little too much the butcher stuff and the murder in particular felt unnecessary and rushed to me.

It's like the writers weren't interested in the uncertainty of whether the ambassador was doing good or harm and decided taking him out of the equation was an easier answer.

But what's easy doesn't always make for the better story. True.
True.
Could take Jess, please.

Mc Deco wrote a very intense episode to follow our lighthearted crossover and I loved every second.

The flashbacks were incredibly intense and I was fascinated by the parallels drawn bit. Like watching a Mash meets Ds Nine loved all of the food.
Nods to that Trek.
Nice to get a another glimpse into disco season one timeline.

The combat scenes between Joseph and the ambassador had me on the edge of my seat and they hashed it out with hand and word.

Not a satisfying end in some aspects, but certainly an episode. I'll be revisiting.
Very nice.
Oh, yes.

The gorn hub jokes go far.

Kay Quinn.

They go far getting Gorney in episode 10.

That's right.

Uh Let's take Havens.

Oh, good.

Because they made a note about amending theirs.

Where is it there?

It is Uh Haven wrote this episode was a very dark episode when it comes to the theme just due to my own personal feelings.

I had to pause a couple of times at the end. It was a great season two episode.

Did anyone else feel like the Klingon General was who was played by Ron Canada from Rules of Engagement?

Uh because every time I Haven heard him, uh they were thinking of that character,

which is a good example, very kind of similar characters. So I just kept on thinking of Yel from supernatural.
Uh Let's see how many more.
Oh yeah.

So Rihanna, can you take us home please?

With Jedi Cats?

Sure thing Jedi Cat wrote under the Cloak of War is one of the strongest episodes yet and evokes the spirit of the 19 nineties star Trek Delving into shades of gray where the line between right and wrong is blurred to practically nil.

It was fascinating yet harrowing to see flashbacks of the on war.

And I appreciated their addressing these various issue issues.

Veterans often face ptsd guilt, et cetera.

The cast especially Babs and Jess were strong as always and the ending was shocking was as shocking as it was devastating.

My only criticism is that Ortega Ortegas big bigoted language and behavior which I also noticed in ad Astra.

I assumed it an aberration and uh assumed it an aberration and quality of mercy because it was an alternative timeline.

But this seems to be one of her traits and it bothers me to see an otherwise likable character who is one of the few Latinas in Star Trek have this potentially ugly side to her.

Agreed very well said.

Um The last thing I want to say, this is definitely a, a bit of a controversial episode, right?

Like lots of different ways to take this.

Um We happen to be part of just like an amazing community of other Trek podcasts, right?

Uh Draft was on, I mentioned earlier, Star Trek Discovery Pod like a lot of great views there.

Last night, I highly suggest you go watch that uh our friends at open pike, their review of this episode is going to have someone who did serve and they're gonna have a veteran's point of view.

So really awesome community of Trek podcasts, all with different point of views. I highly suggest you check them out.

Um With that being said this was an absolute pleasure, Rihanna and Ashlyn always just love having you guys on.

Please tell us more about what's going on, plug away and where can people find you? Yes.
Uh So right now we are doing the engineering series.
We have released the T OS and TNG episodes.

We're looking forward to Deep Space Nine Voyager talking about in depth uh our amazing engineers and uh also it's a big technobabble feature we're reading so much technobabble.

I have a completely new respect for the actors.
Literal question of the week, every week is what's your favorite techno babble? So we have to write it down.
Yeah.
So that's for me, that's like one of my passions is techno babble.
So this has been a really fun series.
And Rina, where can they find us?
Oh My gosh.
Everywhere we are on the burning ship.
That is Twitter.
So you can find us there.
Uh We are also on threads.

We are on tiktok.

We are, we're on, we're on Tumblr.

Uh We have a Patreon.

What did I say?

Facebook?

We're on Facebook as well.

Um Anywhere you can find social media, we're probably there in some form.

Uh except for Pinterest, that's one thing we haven't gotten on for some weird reason.

Don't bother.

Um But yeah, so find us anywhere, talk to us.

We're, we're pretty chatty and we're usually on there unless Twitter, you know, stops us from talking to people, but otherwise we're everywhere.

So the next phase, by the way, you have to pay to actually tweet now um that Elon would, right.

Oh my God.

Anyway, guys, it was an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much.

And uh we have a lot to look forward to working together with our upcoming podcast festival that we are co running.

That is the last days of Disco coming up in late 2023 early 2024. Very excited.
Uh With that guys, things are happening next week.
Episode 209 Subspace, Rhapsody.

I'm bursting. Cannot wait.

This is the bursting into song, Barben Heimer.

I'm saying we get this really dark one and then we're getting a music.

It's amazing.

So cannot wait to review that one.

We will have that for you at our, hopefully we'll be back to normal time next week, 9 30 Eastern on youtube.

So for Rihanna for Ashlin for Hawk, for MC, I am Julie and I will say live long and prosper maj and good night.

Thanks for beaming into our podcast today.

If you want to keep the hailing frequencies open, you can subscribe on Apple and Google podcast, youtube and Spotify, like what you hear, put in a good word with Star Fleet and leave us a five star review.