ENCORE: Meg & Mason - Deconstructing Deconstruction

SYK 130-ENCORE-Meg-Mason Final

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Brian [00:00:04] So I've got a special bonus episode for you today. Enough time has passed that I thought it might be fun to reach out to a few of my early guests and ask them if they wanted to catch up, talk about their experiences on the show, or maybe ask me a few questions. My plan is to give them even more of the reins on these what I am calling encore performances and use the opportunity however they like. You've already heard one of these encore performances last month when I invited Jackson, the show's very first guest, to stop by for another recorded conversation. But due to scheduling, timing, technical support and a variety of other reasons, he was actually not the first encore performance that was recorded. 

Today's conversation was actually my first recorded encore performance. I invited Meg the guest for my ninth episode to join me for the first time in the studio. We had previously recorded our conversation during a Zoom session in what turned out to be the longest episode to date. We had previously talked on the phone for a grand total of 10 minutes, but that day we had our longest episode. Even still, I forced all of her initial goodness into one single episode. Coming in at an edited 4 hours, 18 minutes. I think our original recording was over five and a half hours and I loved every minute of it. 

I try to keep in touch with my new friends after the recording during a recent trip from Arizona in November. My wife and I were able to be Meg and her husband for brunch and catch up on catch up a little. We've also exchanged a number of phone calls, emails and texts since our initial conversation six months previous. These are the sort of off air conversations that prompted me to come up with the idea for encore recordings that I wanted to share with my listeners. So just last month, when Meg and Mason were in town visiting family for the holidays, I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity and invite them both to my home studio for a little follow up conversation, this time just for the fun of it. We thought it would be more interesting to have Mason join the conversation. The show's first official three way conversation. 

I would love to hear what you think of these encore performances as I plan to continue to release them as a bonus episodes on the second Tuesday of each month. I've already recorded encores with episode three or Truth Be Told, who has now revealed herself as Ari and Episode 12 former bishop dead. I've done more than enough talking for this intro, so I'm not going to tell you anything more about the topics we discussed today. Instead, I'll let you dive right into this encore performance of Strangers, you know, with Meghan Mason. This is your first time in the studio. You've been. Know. Had a nice long podcast. 

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Meg [00:02:16] But I know it's good to be here and not over over zoom call a few and real sit and have a real face to face chat. 

Brian [00:02:26] A real conversation. 

Meg [00:02:27] A little more authentic. So just like you're just chatting. 

Speaker 4 [00:02:30] Yeah. 

Brian [00:02:30] All right, so it's been. When. When was our interview? Was it July? 

Meg [00:02:35] Is it June or July? 

Brian [00:02:37] Yeah, it's been six months. 

Meg [00:02:38] That's wild. 

Brian [00:02:39] It's been six months. And this is the first time I've tried this. So tell me, what do you want to. How do you want to catch us up? What? What's the experience been like for you or. 

Meg [00:02:49] Yeah. It was. It was really fun to have that go out and I had way more people reach out to me than I thought that listen to. And I had, I think most like my ex-Mormon or never Mormon friends listen to it and we're, you know, crazy, supportive, really cool, awesome friends. Some that even went on your podcast. How did you friends it was so cool. Reached out to me and I loved that, but I just had great support. I was very surprised that other people that wasn't and some family that we're still Mormons are still very involved with the church that reached out to me and one of the answers that I got kind of consistently with those people is, I understand. I see where you're coming from. I didn't know a lot of things that you went through or almost like not specifically what I went through personally, but also it's a pretty normal thing for people to go through who leave the church. A lot of the same problems really arise and I feel like there's so much understanding there. And so and that's really what I wanted was I don't want to create arguments, I don't want to create tension, but to have people reach out and go, I get it like the church, so works for me, but I see why it doesn't work for you and really seeing that the people want the best for me and I think also brought them to that. They want the best for people who don't either if it's for them anymore, or they see why the church, either culturally or historically or just personally makes them upset or doesn't make them happy anymore. I think they all just get that word out there is like, I'm not the only one that feels this way. There are so many people though I like. Yeah, there's great understanding. I loved it. 

Brian [00:04:24] And really well and without without asking and spending the time to sit down and talk for hours like we did. Yeah. They just make guesses. They just make assumptions. Oh, well. And we all do. I'm not saying them, but we all make assumptions. Right. But it's very rare. We can sit down and talk with someone and really get a full story of something. And almost every time you do, it's like, I understand. Now I get it. Yeah. And you're not trying to convince them one thing is good and one thing is bad. It's like I just telling you my experience. And for some reason, when we fill in the blanks, like, like you said, we make assumptions about other people. We also suck at it. 

Meg [00:05:00] Oh, yeah, we're. 

Brian [00:05:01] Always making the wrong assumptions. And I don't know if it's based off of what we would have done or. 

Meg [00:05:06] I think those assumption assumptions like either way for me to on people who I think like aren't speaking to me are not having a relationship with me, I'm making assumptions that work for me. 

Speaker 3 [00:05:16] Exactly. 

Meg [00:05:17] I'm like, you don't like me because X, Y, Z, or you're not talking to me because like, by the way, when really it's like there give you a relationship. So therefore they could be scary. They could be they don't know how to talk to me anymore where it's like, I don't feel that at all. Meg still here is still and thriving still the same, just kind of living life a little different. And so because I don't really see that side, I make assumptions that, you know, no, I'm not make me a victim necessarily, but make me kind of like come out stronger or like that doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, I like I'm, I'm guilty of it too. And I think, yeah, assumptions are a funny thing because I don't think people just assume on both sides it's kind of assumptions that work for your narrative, right? 

Brian [00:05:52] Yeah. And it's not necessarily you're trying to make yourself out to be a hero, but you're validating your own ideas and it's building up your own, your own structure in your head of your of your values and your beliefs. Yeah, I know it. It's interesting. That's one of the things that I've really got from a lot of these conversations is you can have anybody sit in that chair and if you just let them tell their story at the end, you're like, Oh, I think I understand that a little bit better. I haven't had that exact same experience. You and I have had similar experiences, but there are people that I've talked with. Their experiences are completely different than anything I will ever have. 

Brian [00:06:24] Yeah. 

Brian [00:06:25] I will never be. I don't think knock on wood, I don't think I'll be naked and thrown in a jail in Thailand. I don't think that'll happen. Yeah. 

Meg [00:06:33] Fingers crossed. 

Brian [00:06:33] Fingers crossed. But I don't think that person ever thought that of them either. Yeah. So hearing that whole thing anyway, it's just yeah. It's just interesting the important the of the story value we place on ourselves and others and yet we still do it. Yeah. And for some reason the hardest thing to do is find the time and say, tell me about why you left the church. And I think I asked you that specific question in our first conversation. Has anyone ever asked you that? And you said, Yeah, I actually I've had people say, tell me what you were what we were going through. And I haven't had many people say that at all. 

Meg [00:07:05] Outside of these conversations, you and it's been very like either nuanced or even like X. Mormon people, not a lot of strong hardcore people ask that because they I think they're scared of an argument, scared of the answers, scared of, you know. But I understand it because I want to say to so many people, you know, all this stuff, why haven't you? Yeah, but I don't I'm not going to say that because, you know, and the same reason you don't want to create engine, you don't want to create an argument. You know, there's always things we want to say, but we don't. And I think your podcast really gives that space to people like I'm going to lose their podcast. It's probably going to answer a lot of questions I want to ask, but I've never wanted to ask them. Yeah, because who wouldn't want to ask? Why haven't why did you leave the church? Right, right. Like, who wouldn't want to know, but they're not going to ask you to your face because it was confrontational. 

Brian [00:07:48] Well, yeah, but I think part of it is also fear. 

Meg [00:07:50] Oh, yeah. 

Brian [00:07:51] We already feel like we know why everybody does what they do. And so we just pick the the closest answer to what makes sense. And so we say, oh, that must be why. It's like, no, they, they're respecting my space. Yeah, right. It's like, oh, I didn't consider that I wanted to leave and I left and they're like, Well, that was their choice. I'm going to respect it and I'm just going to sit here. And they're not afraid of us. They're not, you know, making up all these lies and telling all these stories. They're just respecting our decisions. Yeah. 

Meg [00:08:16] So I like that guy. Reminds me, I saw this this thing. I can't remember it. A company that did I don't remember. It was like a Facebook video that I saw. But they got strangers and sat them down and had them stare into each other's eyes for 5 minutes like no conversation. I think they told each other their names and that like every single time by like minute three, they're crying, they're emotional. And by the end of 5 minutes they ask like, Can I hug you? Or like, tell me your story? By just like looking into someone else's eyes, you kind of people see like, we're all human, we're all going through our own things, own struggles on, on. And I think there's a part of podcasts. They're just giving people a voice where you kind of get to dove deep into that kind of same idea of being into their soul of it without having a conversation, you know, because that's I mean, that was kind of like our road to leaving that church, if it was Mormon stories, because it changed my mind. All my people left the church because I was curious. But then, like I was listening to people who had so much hatred and so much anger and then like, oh, I, I was on a journey and you're like, why is all of that about it? Like, just walk away. It's all cool. And then I listen to it. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I get it. Like, I see into your soul of it. I see what has caused you pain and heartache and why you're human to feel anger and why you're having those emotions, you know? And so yeah, I love your podcast specifically for that reason. I think you get to Dove Deep a little bit to understand the human experience in a more detailed and personal way with something that's the whole point of people, the religion or the absence of. 

Brian [00:09:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Meg [00:09:46] So thank you. 

Brian [00:09:47] Thank you. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing your story because yeah, I mean, did did you feel a vulnerability hangover after you after you recorded it or after it was released? And you're like. 

Meg [00:09:56] I was shaken. And yet when that was released, I was like, okay, no comeback. 

Brian [00:10:03] That's that's how the world ends. 

Meg [00:10:04] This is why every step, I mean, like every little thing that, like, I haven't posted on social media about my experience, I had that whole, like, questionnaire thing that came out, the whole what was it called? 

Brian [00:10:15] Anonymous question. 

Meg [00:10:16] Yeah, the anonymous question. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I didn't know people wanted to ask me so many questions about my leaving the church because I was answering them and I was like, Well, the anxiety was running in that day. And then when the podcast was released, it wasn't necessarily our conversation. I love that day. Yeah, that was a good chat. It was a good time. And then when it was released, I was like, Oof! I didn't need any caffeine that day. I was wide awake and jittery and. 

Brian [00:10:40] Checking your phone every 5 seconds. 

Meg [00:10:41] Yeah, yeah. But then it was so positive. So yeah, being vulnerable definitely. I think it's very nerve wracking, but and it was, it was rewarding for me. I hope other people felt the same for them when they do good like this. Thank you. So yeah, absolutely. 

Brian [00:10:54] So and I'm going to ask Mason. Yeah. What did you think when when the episode came out? 

Mason [00:10:59] I was just excited and proud, honestly. Yeah. I know that Meg has has had all these feelings and emotions, but being able to share them and be authentic was was huge. And, you know, I probably listened to it two or three times and just loved it. I love the way that she presented herself and explained her story. It was just pretty great. 

Brian [00:11:21] Were there any surprises you when you listen to this? I never knew. That's what she thought about that or how she viewed that or. 

Mason [00:11:26] Honestly, probably not. Okay. We walk our dog almost every day, twice a day. And we when we first started going through this transition, that was what we talked about all the time. We just talked about church stuff and how we're navigating this and out. Yeah, like we would just talk and even now, like Meg and I talk, we, we just drove up from Arizona and the entire way we were just talking and chatting. And so I kind of knew all those feelings. It was more surprising just what she had shared, because I remember when we first started having questions, she was very nervous of what people were going to say. And I remember her being like, I will never let people know this. This will be something that's between us and I'm okay with that. And to see her, you know, be more confident in her decisions and in. Herself. That was really exciting for me. 

Brian [00:12:12] Did you get a different set of feedback or from different people on that or. 

Mason [00:12:16] No, I think the people that reached out to her, we kind of discussed and we knew and they were very positive. I was excited about that. I think that when people see a human behind something, they soften up a little bit. Yeah. And I think, you know, you can make assumptions like you guys talked about where it's like Meg is bad because of this, but when you hear a story, it it softens your heart, softens all those things and you can understand and and that's why I think it's so powerful. And I think she shared her story really well. You guys talked about some some serious, heartfelt things. And because of that, I think people were able to understand her in a more full way. Yeah. 

Brian [00:12:53] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I agree. It's so hard to get these long form conversations, but that's one of the reasons that I live for this stuff. This is just it's core of who I am. Being able to look somebody in the eye for 3 minutes and see the person that's sitting there instead of Yeah. Tell me about your day. How much do you really get from that? The least interesting question you could ask, you know, but that's all we have time for. Right. So being able to walk the dog and share those experiences and get and or the drive up from Arizona. I love those long drives in the car with Gabby too. We just like my kids are shocked when we go on drives because I rarely have the radio on and they're like, But we just talk the whole time. It's like, I've never not had the radio on in my car. Right. You know, and I'm like, I hardly ever have it on. Yeah. 

Meg [00:13:35] So it shatters. It's fun. Road trips are pretty fun. There's always something to chat about. 

Brian [00:13:40] Yeah. 

Meg [00:13:41] Yeah. We're talking about the podcast, you know, just feelings that we had during that time where, you know. But I think the main point conversation is how much we've really changed in the past three years with how we feel about being Mormons. Because in itself, I think it's more it's kind of a religion like you have your pack of people. And I will always say Mormons are so easy to get along with. Like there's we have met X Mormons, I mean pretty easily and Gilbert it's like a pretty good drought to meet that people are that kind of I don't know if that orthodox because Arizona is definitely more chilled in Utah, but there's pockets definitely where people live through Orthodox Mormon life and left and they're in their twenties like us. You know, there's so much to chat about, but there's something about just like we're Mason Meg like, no, no, like title. No. Like, I don't want to I don't want to associate with Mormonism, you know, and how before, like there were times where I remember I flew out here for a wedding. It was like six months after we left, and I was still, like, pretty quiet about it and not a lot of people knew. And I flew out of Provo and that little airport and I was like, almost in tears at how anger was the thing. Like every BYU hat, every. Like I would see these, like, church pictures everywhere. And I was like, I didn't seem so dumb, even like little garment lines that I would see and people like. And I just felt so suffocated, so suffocated being there. And I was I was texting Macy's. I went very weekend just to see my friend get married. And he was at home. I was like, I can not get out of here fast enough. I was upset and I remember like getting on the flight and just like, oh, the way I thought of Utah. And now it's so funny. Like three years later, almost three years later, we're here and it just feels so different. We're just so our own people. We're saying that on the way here, we are seeing people drive home from church and we're like, Well, that's not us. Like, thumbs up to you. Hope you had a good morning. But there's not there is not like that underlying like anger or uncomfortable suffocation anymore. We still like I don't I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong me, but I don't, I don't feel comfortable going to church like I wouldn't go to like Christmas Sunday. 

Mason [00:15:49] But, you know, I'm probably not. 

Meg [00:15:50] I mean, I definitely have more chill feelings about it a few years ago, but I'm not really there. I don't want to go myself there. But we're saying we're like going to Costco here on a Sunday, but they're like. 

Brian [00:16:01] Bountiful Costco on a Sunday. Yeah, highly recommended. 

Meg [00:16:05] Like, there's just, I don't know, we just feel more comfortable with ourselves than, like, not like how to say I'm just not. I'm not angry people do them. I think the hardest part is people not knowing things. And I really want to tell them, but I'm like, No, that's not my job. Yeah. Everyone goes through their own process, just like we went through our own process. So it's, it's a much cleaner and more pure experience being here in Utah than it was three years ago. It's it's more nostalgic. This is my childhood. This was this is where my friends and family live. And I get to dwell more on that rather than feeling the church than ever. Do you feel that way being I mean, I know you live here, but. 

Brian [00:16:41] Like, yes, I feel like I need to move Arizona. 

Brian [00:16:44] Yeah. 

Meg [00:16:46] Oh, civil is pretty, pretty high in population there. 

Brian [00:16:49] Yeah, but no, but you're right. I think when you first you and your first going through it, there are so many emotions and you don't even know what's causing them. And it takes a long time to kind of let your self validate that and think about it and let it settle and say, okay, this is why it why it bothers me. And I think once you start to address that. It's like, okay, it bothers you a little less. 

Brian [00:17:11] Yeah. 

Brian [00:17:12] And but it it takes time. It's also interesting because you fall into the habit of when I was in, it was right. And when I'm out, it's right. And when it's and I have I really have to fight that whole binary thinking. Yeah. It's like just because I'm not there anymore, does it make where I am now? Right. Either, yeah. Because I'll be someplace else in the future. Yeah. And that will be right then too. And all you can do is, like you said, be authentic, be your real self now and be open to who knows what. Mm hmm. And I don't. I used to think. Well, so you just going to move with every wave? You're not going to have any anchors. I don't see it that way at all. Yeah. You know, my anchor is finding out who I am and being that person and not letting the wind or the waves make any difference to me. 

Mason [00:17:56] I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think for us it's been, you know, creating that identity and recognizing ourselves as in that, you know, we started out and it was like we are we would introduce ourselves as like we are Mormons, right? That was the first thing that I could tell someone about me if they wanted to know who I was. Amy Mormon. And then with leaving Mormonism, it was like, I'm an ex-Mormon. And it's funny that that would be the way I would introduce myself. And there was such an identity tied with that. And I think recently we've kind of transitioned into this. I am Mason and she's Meg and that's who we are. And that title and that description is really how we describe ourselves and we're comfortable with that. And I think, you know, that transition is hard and it takes people time. And, you know, we were laughing that when I first went to a bar after, you know, we had left the church, I told them they're like, why do you want to drink anything? I don't know. I'm a recovering Mormon, so this is hard for me. I don't I don't know an answer right now. But again, like I labeled myself as that and and now we're we're in a different place where it's like we don't have to have those labels because we're whatever we want to be. And and kind of going on your anchor question, like I think we have five or six different anchors that we've put down. Yeah. And as we have those anchors, we're going to kind of flow and adjust and change. And as we continue to learn, we're we might pull some of those anchors up or switch them. Yeah. And there's such a beauty in that because we get to follow what, what feels good to us, right? 

Meg [00:19:19] Yeah, I love that. I think there is there's so much like to say with insecurities that are tied with that. Like I remember we were at a bar and he said that I was like, Mason, stop telling people where ex-Mormon like, we can't tell people that was Jesus stranger like teasing him. And he's like, and I remember like he said, sorry, I just don't know where to order or like, I just I'm so uncomfortable. Which I remember going to Starbucks for the first time and being like, I don't fucking know, like, and I look, this is so funny. One of the first times I ordered a Starbucks, I ordered I ordered a. 

Brian [00:19:49] Drink and I forgot. 

Meg [00:19:51] What it was, but I got it and I was like, This is not he's like. 

Brian [00:19:53] Coffee. It wasn't coffee, but I needed it. And I'm like, Well, is this around the firehouse? 

Meg [00:20:00] They're like, They're so do you. Those experiences of like navigating your life outside of a hardcore religion, not just Mormonism, like but I think of, you know, escaping Amish. If you ever watch that show. Like there's some deep insecurity. If you walk into a different realm of the world that you don't know and you're insecure as hell, you're like, I don't know how to do this. I don't want to talk to different people. I don't know how to be friends with different people where we don't have like there's underlying knowing of each other's religious backgrounds. Like Mormons are just better friends with Mormons because they agree on a lot of things, you know? Right. And there's this part of Mormonism where I was so insecure because I'm stepping out into like I'm definitely not associating with Mormons anymore. But like, what? Who is Meg? What do I agree with? What do I not agree with? What are my passions? What are my successes? What are my anger's like so many things that you agree with people or how you agree with yourself. And there's so many of those experiences where I almost feel like we kept saying like the ex-Mormon feeling right are labeling us as Mormons are post-Mormon or having that childhood experience to feel like that was a little bit of a crutch to say like, Oh, I don't really know how to do this because I ex-Mormon or I this is the experience I'm going through because I'm ex-Mormon and it kind of goes with that with Mormonism too. Like, why can't you drink? Oh, cause I'm Mormon. Like, you're kind of wiping out the insecurity and not saying I for everyone it's an insecurity. But it could be right. Like when I was meeting people who weren't Mormons and I was Mormon, I would say, Oh, I can't drink because I Mormon immediately. That insecurity is not insecurity because I've labeled something else with it. Yeah. I don't have to be insecure as an ex-Mormon because I'm still navigating stuff and then like we realize we have to work through a lot of these things because I think we're labeling ourselves as a title when we should be labeling ourselves as who we are and not. Does that make sense having such a crutch? And so now it's safe to say we know our orders is at Starbucks. 

Brian [00:21:50] I was going to say, you know, our. 

Meg [00:21:51] Our bar orders, but also just like with media, with like politics, like that was a scary road to go down because you start to realize how much you disagree in politics after leaving a hardcore religion, because you realize how many things are tied to your religion with politics. And you're like, okay, so that changes. For me, that's not because of Mormonism. That's. Because of Meg. That's because Meg does not agree. That doesn't mean I have to walk away from this part because. Because I'm not Mormon anymore. Like, for example, I thought it was, like, my job to hate Mitt Romney. 

Brian [00:22:21] But the church. 

Meg [00:22:22] Didn't like his Mormon, and and my parents were nuts about him when he was running. And I was like, I have to hate it. But like, no, I can still have choices. I can. I don't have to. It's not black or white, right? 

Brian [00:22:32] That's a big part. 

Meg [00:22:33] Yeah, huge. I think it felt so black and white. We were. 

Brian [00:22:36] Leaving. And before all of your anchors were based on what you were told, were your anchors because you were LDS? 

Meg [00:22:41] Exactly. 

Brian [00:22:42] And you pulled up all of those anchors now because they all come up with the LDS rope right. Dip, and you're like, well, what am I? Well, I guess I'm not whatever. These aren't. 

Meg [00:22:51] Exactly. 

Brian [00:22:51] I have to be anti whatever this or. 

Mason [00:22:53] Whatever those are. Yeah. 

Brian [00:22:55] And after you ask the honest questioning, say, well, so who is Meg, you know, and say, oh, this is something that I that I believe in. And there's one of your anchors. Yeah. And it takes a while. But what a what a amazing blessing and wonderful opportunity to be able to decide what those anchors are instead of. Yeah, just it's crazy that those anchors existed so long for me before I even considered them. But it's also very freeing to be at this point in my life and say, well, so what what are important anchors to you? Just put down the right ones. 

Mason [00:23:27] Right. 

Brian [00:23:28] Right. And think about those issues that maybe you haven't answered before, even something as simple as you order at Starbucks. 

Brian [00:23:34] Yeah. 

Brian [00:23:34] Go ahead and think about what does Meg like. Well, Meg likes I don't know. Not this. Whatever this was this wasn't what I liked. 

Meg [00:23:40] Yeah, exactly. Is also funny where we I really, I don't I didn't realize how much I struggled 30 until I started really like deconstructing eggs and I'm like, am I making choices or am I believing or not believing things just because again, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Yeah. And that's been such a good, good road for us to navigate and and also take away the anger part of it, too, because we're both definitely less at the church, less angry at all the things because, I mean, we've kind of unfollowed and not really surround herself that anymore. We're not unfollowing ex-Mormon yet. And I still follow like a lot of like LGBTQ leaders and and influencers on Instagram because they want to support what they're doing. Yeah, but I kind of unfollowed a lot of like angry people and it's been really, really good for us because now that the anger has kind of gone away, it does make it a little easier to be like, you know, be around the Mormonism and not be so angry and also not be like, I don't have to be exactly opposite of that. I can appreciate the community. I can appreciate that knowing my neighbors. I can go see my parents now and go, you know, I can wave at my neighbors or go see them and talk to them. And it doesn't feel like I'm an outcast because I think I kind of label myself as that. Or I may be like there were definitely some hurtful things said by family, friends, you know, during that time. But yeah, that navigation so good. It's hard because you're kind of like, Who am I? 

Brian [00:24:57] Like that big question. 

Brian [00:24:59] It's weird at my age to say, I don't even know who this guy is. 

Meg [00:25:03] Yeah, that. 

Brian [00:25:04] Wild. What do you believe in? I don't know. At this point. I don't know. Right. It's kind of like you eventually figure it out. 

Meg [00:25:09] Yeah, but do you feel like our our big truth, though, now that we've kind of like vacated. 

Mason [00:25:15] From the kind of where where we place our anchor? Yeah. 

Brian [00:25:18] I was going to ask you that. 

Mason [00:25:19] Yeah. I think the big one is like truth is one that we were very focused on that there were a lot of kind of partial truths that we followed when we were Mormon. Right? Like, well, this is the little bit of truth with a lot of faith, and now we try to base it on what is truth. And, you know, science, that's a big one there. But like then I think we look at kindness as one of the huge anchors, like when we were deciding what to do, it's like, okay, what, what do we feel like is true and what is the kind thing to do? What would we, you know, what would this person want us to do to them? Other anchors, I think, experimenting and experience. Right. Like we've it's been really interesting trying to decide where we stand with God. Is this it? Is this all that we have? Right. And, you know, there's such a beauty to the temperance of all this like that. This might be it. Yeah. And it's so crazy just thinking about, like, if we ever get into a disagreement, there's this impulse that I have to be like, I got to be friends with her right now. I got to swallow the pride and do everything I can to be back on the same page. Because this might be it, man. Yeah, and I need to take advantage of all of these moments. And, you know, for both of us, that's been really helpful. Like Meg and I have kind of changed our careers and it was kind of from that impetus of this might be it. And if it is, that's that's I guess that's what it is. But we need to take advantage of all the opportunities now. And that's it's added another layer of beauty to our lives because we we can treat family in different ways and be like, I gotta use this as a very finite resource and we treat each other that way and we treat experiences because there might not be another something. And we hope there is. But if there's not, like I. I want Meg to be my best friend the entire fucking time. Yeah. And I'm going to fight for that. So it's. I don't know, I think kind of those anchors. What else? I don't. 

Meg [00:27:11] Know. Not. Not doing things just because that's the movement of what other people are doing. Our age or our group of people like. 

Mason [00:27:19] Yeah. Don't you don't. You don't need to follow the crowd. It's yeah. There's not one way to do life and the press that's been that's been an exciting. 

Meg [00:27:27] It's going to be hard on their twenties like you're kind of following a lot of people don't like I don't know what I'm doing I don't know what the plan is like between careers and families and where you're going to live. And and it's hard to not look at other people and go, Oh, it looks like this worked out for them. You know, like that's that's such an innocent way to look at life. And I'm just trying to follow the crowd in a very like, I want to make good choices and right choices and happy choices. And I think with this process of, you know, figure out who we are and what we stand for and what really who is Mason Meg? It comes with such a great feeling of trusting our intuition and well, how do we feel about this? Just because it's working for them? Are we them? Are we living where they're living? Do we have the opportunities they have or the lack of opportunities or the family, the friends, the support or the personalities? Like we have great friends with amazing kids. We love their kids and we have prided ourselves on being dope ass Aunt Meg and Uncle Mason like it is our favorite roles. And then there's always that type of like, okay, so like kids like because we love their kids, because we love being around our friends and our families kids. Oh, what does that mean for us? And we're like, okay, but stop thinking about what other people are doing. How does that make us feel? Yeah, like what have we gone through? And I've gone through some pretty rough health things that that could be a pretty rough transition. But also we have said so many times, I don't feel like anything's missing right now. I don't feel like our family unit of who we are. Nothing's missing. And I think that's that's how we feel with how happy we make each other, how happy our home is and our kids and our future. We don't know. We're kind of on this track of like we're really happy as we are now and again being a part of our friends, the kids lives. But that's such a big thing in your toes on you. Think about kids, you think about your family. You think about how you're transitioning into this new unit, right? Because before when you're just married, you're like, you don't married college jobs. That's so great. But I was really entering their thirties. This is almost 30. It's a weird transition and you start asking yourself questions and I don't know, that's been a big transition for us on top, looking at what other people are doing, people who we love, adore, trust, look at their life and think it's so happy. What makes us happy? What do we feel comfortable with? What makes us feel fulfilled in our home? And those are some hard questions because it's hard to find an answer sometimes. 

Brian [00:29:46] Yeah, and I think there's also the baggage and the the echo of what your former beliefs were that are still weighing down on you and still guilt and still shame. And this is your whole purpose and this is what life is all about. And this is it. You still hear those echoes? Yeah. You know, how how do you how do you handle those when they come up again? I mean, we talked, I think, about remodeling the kitchen. I keep reaching the wrong door for the forks. Right. It it's just it's just this echo of. Well, that's the way. Wait, that was the something you used to believe where you used to value. Do you still value that? But when you're talking about something this important that for so long was like a big focus and the big next step, you can't just say, Well, I don't know if that fits me now. It's still there. It's still echoes. I don't know how to say that. 

Meg [00:30:34] And you know, it's so true and you don't know what is you and what kind of your upbringing or your what's always been at the back of your mind. Yeah, because I always thought I wanted to be a mom when I was a kid. I always said that. But then I thought, especially recently, I mean, based in the past 3 to 4 years, I'm like, did I really want that or did I just say that? Because that's what you're supposed to say. 

Brian [00:30:55] Yeah. And ah, now you're just being anti mom because before you were pro mom. 

Meg [00:30:58] Exactly. 

Brian [00:30:59] So we put this anchor where we put this one. Do we just lift it up or put it down and is there something in between? Right. 

Brian [00:31:05] Yeah. 

Meg [00:31:05] And those are I mean, between family and careers and where we want to live, where, you know, we're just who we are. It's been a really good thing for us to say, like what path, like what idea can we think of for the future? And what not only gives us happiness, but what brings anxiety when I think about it and that was a really good tool for us on kids are kind of one with a lot of health problems I've had and a lot of things that we've gone through and and as soon as I start thinking of that immediately, it's like anxiety and I'm like, okay, then that means that's not right for us right now. Like, I don't want to feel that because as soon as I have said maybe kids, maybe not kids, as soon as I've allowed myself to say, maybe we will be Mason Meg and I don't want to say just Mason Meg because just that's enough because we're, we're cool. Like we have a great home and we make each other happy. But if that is, if we are Mason Meg and no one else of course are our dog and our future dogs or big dog people. As soon as I said that, so much relief went away. Not necessarily of relief. Choice. I'm sorry. I really came. 

Mason [00:32:09] You went. 

Brian [00:32:09] Away. I knew it. Thank you. 

Meg [00:32:11] Yes. Relief came to me. Anxiety went away. And there's no pressure to make a choice and to know that there is another choice available if we make that choice immediately. Same with jobs. Two on. We really realize we want to be remote together and as soon as we make it happen. It was hell to make that happen. The job search was shitty. It was not fun. But now I've actually. I got a position at his company. 

Brian [00:32:37] Okay. 

Meg [00:32:38] Work remote together in the same office. At home. 

Brian [00:32:41] We. 

Meg [00:32:41] Wear jammies and work together for the same company. And now we get to kind of travel together and we work with our friends, too. It was a hell of a road to get here. Yeah, it was not fun. But again, like that choice of it, like stability is great, but like we are that other side, and now we're on the other side of working together. Yeah, so cool. Like, I don't know, there's. I think paths can be kind of difficult to get to these solutions or kind of these realizations on how we feel. But it's it's been rewarding. I wouldn't have asked myself so many questions that years ago on what, you know, what makes it that like present day on what decisions I'm making right now to make me happy because this could be it. But also I don't want to waste time, you know, I don't want to waste time with anxiety or indecision. It's good to build. 

Mason [00:33:23] One thing, just to add to that. I like the the metaphor for anchors, but I think sometimes people think of anchors as things that like don't move and they're never going to change. And I think allowing ourselves to be a little more fluid with some of those things, like, you know, as we get older and we discuss these things like kids can change and that's something we can we can push off. But we're not saying they will never be us no matter what. Like, you know, I love the idea of, you know, right now, especially because we've left Mormonism and then it's Mormonism. It's we're kind of defining those, but also giving ourselves a lot of freedom and flexibility. Yeah. And, you know, we approach it as a team and there are a lot of conversations. The other day we were talking about, you know, where do we want to end up? Do we want to stay in Arizona? We want to go somewhere else. And I just thought it was like, you know, there's a lot of family in Utah that could be cool. And I remember immediately Mike was like, nope, you're you're out of your mind, dude. Like, that's that's going to be fun for you. I wouldn't go there. Like, and, and as we kind of discussed and talked about it, we're like, you know what? I don't know if Utah's our next place, but it's not an absolutely no. And we could discuss that. And, you know, so for us, it was like, yeah, let's, let's discuss, let's talk. And there there is wiggle room in those things. And as long as we're together and on the same page, like we're okay, we can we can continue to place and replace those anchors. Yeah. 

Meg [00:34:43] Nothing's black and white. 

Brian [00:34:44] Yeah, it sounds to me like. So I picked up a couple of themes here. One is you've kind of given up the black and white for the there's always something in between, which is a big lesson to learn and what I'm still working on. And when we're talking, it's black and white. But anchors are no anchors. You kind of. Or what's what truth is. Mm hmm. Before it was. It was values or beliefs. And now you're leaning a little bit more towards science and fact. It sounds like mace. 

Mason [00:35:11] Yeah. 

Brian [00:35:12] And you sounded like and this may be the same for both of you, but so that was one thing that I picked up on. The other one was you said, what? What is right and wrong for you is you're picking it up on your emotions. Mm hmm. Right. If I'm feeling anxious, then maybe science be damned. I mean, it might be part of the equation or not, but if I'm feeling anxious, then maybe that's something that's not right for me. Mm hmm. Does that. Is that a fair? 

Mason [00:35:34] Yeah, I actually think that that's interesting because it kind of goes along with both of our personalities. We want to do something. I will go through and research, do a pros and cons, do a SWOT analysis. Let's look at all of what's going to happen here. And I think Meg is much more tied to her emotions and gone. This feels good. This this feels. 

Meg [00:35:51] Good. 

Brian [00:35:51] Berkeley 30. No. 

Mason [00:35:53] But and then we inside then we come together and we discuss those things. And I then we bring up the the pros and cons and she's able to analyze those together. And then, you know, she uses her emotional side to help me see that. And as I discuss that very logical side, we we kind of come to a good decision. And I think that's where we we use both of our strengths, come together and come to a good decision that we're united and. 

Brian [00:36:17] Make. 

Meg [00:36:18] A good team that they I think all decisions based on emotion I made those decisions is not work out. 

Brian [00:36:24] Sometimes very poorly. 

Meg [00:36:27] Outcomes sometimes. But it's kind of like my my major is emotion, his major is logic and then his minor's emotion and my minor logic. Yeah, it's always in the back of our minds, but I think we may go to tag team a little bit on. I see where he comes from a lot with logic. He sees where I come from, not with emotion. And because I, I think my main goal is like I just want to be happy. I don't want to have things that all weighed on us and that could come with rapid choices and a little. What's the word being impulsive. Yeah, being impulsive. And, and yeah. So he kind of holds me like that where he comes from sort of back then reading about things, putting two and two together on let's read about it. Let's learn. About it. Like we were looking at moving to Virginia for a minute and that was something so important to us. And actually, he was he almost was going to work for the State Department. We're really looking to that. He did all this test and everything and passed it. We're super excited. Like that was our next step. And then the more we read into it, the more my emotions were like, Hey, traveling and all that is a really fun time. Megan You love doing that with your spouse, but also do you want to be in Africa for three years and not be able to even see your family and not be able to work? Really? Because I wouldn't really get to work with, you know, anything my what my job would do. So, you know, like this the facts would come in with the machine. Yes, darling. So fine. Okay. Well, what does that mean? Okay, well, here are the facts that comment on what the state park would look like and. Yeah, so, yeah, I kind of changed our track of just that decision. And now, you know, I look at different things there, but every decision kind of has that emotion and logic with it. 

Mason [00:38:01] Yeah. And I think this is one of the things that we've always been really good at. But in in our relationship is like we're 5050. I'm not the one talking to God that communicates to her. 

Brian [00:38:09] I talk to God. 

Brian [00:38:11] She talks and she tells me what to tell him. 

Mason [00:38:13] Yeah, no, but it's it's like when, when we look at decisions together, there's such a balance in like it makes. I don't feel like this. This might be the perfect thing right now. You go do some some, you know, analysis and we'll come back on this. And after I look at it, I go, Yeah, your feeling, your intuition was right. Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought that up, because we did avoid something that might not have been good for us or on the other side. Like I said, with with moving, I'm like, you know, when I crunched the numbers, Utah is not the worst place to be for us and her immediate like, I don't know, she's able to rethink that because of the, you know, the logical side. And we can come to a really good decision. So I love the beauty in that. But also, just like we are partners in this, I'm not the boss and she's not the boss. It's you know, we're we're a team. The dogs, the boss, the dog is the boss. 

Meg [00:39:02] True is is true heroes. Our lives. 

Brian [00:39:05] Love it. So yeah. 

Meg [00:39:07] That's a good question, though, because I think that's been brought up by my mom is that that part where she's like Mr. Mrs. Berry in touch with his emotions. He's so great, so attentive, very, very understanding of me and my emotions and is is so great. But he is more logic based on how he makes choices. Where I have logic and there's, you know, there's a lot of things I want to read about and learn about. But at the end of the day, I think I make decisions based on how I feel about it and the emotion being at the forefront. And she said, like, how does that work? Like it's so funny. She said the same thing. You guys are so factual based and then emotional based. How does that come together? And sometimes it's not as easy as it sounds like as those were saying, you know, there can be arguments or disagreements on it about the day. I think having that there were the opposites attract, you know, thing comes in, it's good to have the better choices. But that's how you and Gabby are. Yeah. 

Brian [00:40:00] Yeah. So I've really so emotions was something that I've really ignored for most of my life. It doesn't matter what you feel, you just got to shut up and do it anyway. That's kind of what I approach. I had always taken. I was taught there was way to go. Yeah, I'm taking a lot more information from my emotions that I used to. That was one of the first things that I kind of approach that just sounded right is like your your emotions is a whole form of feedback to you if you're not paying attention to them. It's like cutting off half of the dashboard on a cockpit of an airplane. 

Mason [00:40:32] Right? 

Brian [00:40:33] Like some of that stuff has important information in it. Yeah, you can try to fly without it, but you know, you might want to know your altitude and your velocity. Those might both be, you know, might be useful and how much gas is left. And those all of those little gauges are there for a reason. And so it's taken me a long time to even scratch the surface on what those emotions are and how I feel them and to be to the point where I could trust them a little bit. It's like, Oh, that, now I know what that's telling me. Instead of I think I know what that's telling me, but I have the facts over here, so we're going to do this. You know, I've got my Venn diagram that tells me this is this is the best. So yeah. And these conversations help a lot with that because I get in tune with other people's emotions and how they work through things, and it just kind of helps me learn new ways of coping. And Gabby brought up, she says, because I talk about how much I learn from these conversations and I study them. I mean, like I've mentioned, they're my scripture, you know, I'll highlight of and I love it and I just love learning from other people. And I think they're more useful than the scriptures were because to me they're real, right? They come from a real person experience. Does it mean they're perfect? Does it mean no? But it means where they are right now. There's something I can learn from it. And she says, How do you think I learned so much about myself? It's from sitting across other people all day because she's a therapist and listening to them work through their stories and seeing myself in them thinking, I do that, I do that, yeah, I'm guilty of that. Or I could do that better. That's definitely I can learn, take something away from that. 

Meg [00:41:55] Yeah, but I think that's a cool human experience. On learning. 

Brian [00:41:59] Yeah, and unless we're shut off and we have a book with all the answers and then we don't need to listen to anybody else or care about their stories, right? 

Meg [00:42:06] It's like the humbling experience we. We're reading, think like a monk. We read that realistic way up here. 

Brian [00:42:14] Jay Shetty Right. 

Brian [00:42:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Meg [00:42:16] He's awesome. And there is a part he was one of the I don't know if it was a chapter heading or subheading was forgiveness, that it's a negativity. I think it's in that chapter and, you know, really pulling the human experience together on trying to put yourself in their shoes, that in your shoes and that's a good exercise for you to do is to write an apology letter, letter of forgiveness to someone that has had something that's been weighing on your brain. Right. And you don't have to send it. You don't have to do that. But writing down what you felt, what they said that made you felt, but also on the other side, writing as if you were them on why they said that or why they felt that. As much as I have, I've made mistakes. There's also a lot of insecurities that I have. There's a lot of emotion or a lot of things that I hold onto that could have made me make those choices and not on purpose. And I don't want to hurt people, but there's things about me that can come across in a difficult way where that could also be on the other side of someone else. They didn't mean to hurt me. They didn't mean to be as offended or offensive as they were. So then looking at putting myself in their shoes, not on what they said, but who they are and what they've gone through and why their language or actions lines up to what they said and not the way that they. And I'm probably butchering this so about him how he said that. But it was so truth telling to me. I'm like, Yeah, I'm not perfect. Like, I'm not and I've known that. So why do I expect better things from other people, like you said, being yourself and what other people say? And I felt that so much of who's talking about that? Oh, gosh, yeah. I totally expect more from others at times than what I expect from myself. Yeah, that's not fair. That's not the human experience, you know. But now other people and, and getting how they experience life and how they've messed up or been great. Like, that's what we're all doing. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:43:59] Trying to give them the space and the grace that we would want someone else to give us. 

Meg [00:44:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to go read that chapter, though. I probably. 

Brian [00:44:08] Not because. 

Meg [00:44:08] I wasn't as articulate on target after I read that. But whereas listening to I was like, oh my gosh, but is exactly me. Like it was. So I don't know. It seems so simple. No one's perfect, that section, but once you get down to little details like that, you start to really recognize where again, where my emotion can be steered in the wrong direction and what to expect. 

Mason [00:44:28] And in just going back on your your point, it's been really fun for us to read together. You know, I can't say how many times I've read the Book of Mormon. We're probably in the forties or fifties, but it's been amazing to get outside of that and see other perspectives, another opinions and other ways to think about the world. And for both of us, it's been so helpful. I'm looking at your bookshelf right here and it's like, Yeah, we've read some Brené Brown. Yeah, that's fantastic. 

Meg [00:44:52] And The Help is my. 

Mason [00:44:54] Yeah, yeah. But I just love the idea that there there are more answers outside of Nicci and Alma. Yeah. And, you know, it's there's a little bit of regret that like growing up, I wasn't a huge reader, but how much would you know? Sam Harris helped me instead of Alma. Yeah. Or when I was going through hard things, you know, finding someone that that could understand those things. And we love that. And now we're very focused on let's go to an expert and and get someone that's actually studied this that can they can help me. And, you know, I had I had bishops that were I was going through hard things and it was like, you know what you need to do? You need to go to neutral. Like, that's the answer. Like I'm struggling with these hard things and the answers to, you know, you need a ten church ball and it's like, come on, man. But now you can go to an expert and get some real knowledge and go to another expert. And, and it's just been so helpful for us to feel some validation. I'm like, I don't know why I going to church basketball didn't help me with my anxiety. 

Brian [00:45:56] Yeah, imagine. 

Mason [00:45:57] And it's like, Oh, come on, man. So we've loved that. We've loved reading together and learning together and. 

Meg [00:46:03] Not reading the same book. 

Mason [00:46:04] Over. Yeah, like the 50th time you read about me if I kill and leave and it's like I got to take something else from it or I don't know, man. 

Brian [00:46:11] Still not getting an. 

Brian [00:46:13] Idea how to do with your problem. Yeah. 

Mason [00:46:15] But yeah, getting outside of that has been it's been really helpful for us and. 

Brian [00:46:19] Looking to yourself as an expert on you. Yeah. 

Mason [00:46:22] True. 

Brian [00:46:23] You know yourself better than anybody else and you can take bits and pieces from all these, you know, different works. Yeah. But you'll know what, what fits with you and what doesn't. 

Mason [00:46:32] I love that. And we've actually been talking about, you know, you mentioned feelings and being able to trust your feelings. That's I think right as I left the church I went and did the anti that like I did the opposite of trusting my feelings because my feelings were always telling me, church, do this. And, you know, that's kind of what I interpreted as the Holy Ghost. It was like, Hey, you should do that. And when you think about how the church explains that, it's like, how do I know if it's my feelings or not? Or How do I know if it's the spirit or it's Satan? Well, if what you're doing tells you to build the church, that's God. That's good. Yeah. And if what you're doing tells you not to build the church, that Satan. And so it was really hard for me to identify, like I'm getting that feeling that I felt before. Is that the Holy Ghost? Is it myself or is it none of those things? And now really tuning into this is what Mason feels and I can trust my intuition has has been really helpful for me and I think, you know, Meg talked about the her emotional side. I think I am connecting into more of an emotional feeling based thing because I'm learning to trust those feelings again and not have them manipulated in a way that gets me to do what the church wanted me to do. 

Brian [00:47:40] Yeah. I'm going to ask you guys and give you some homework. I want you guys to send me your, like your top five favorite books for each of you that you've read recently. And I'll put them in the show notes so anybody that's listening can go through. And yeah, we'll talk about those titles down there and we'll share what we've learned and what we've got out of them. Love it. 

Meg [00:47:56] Love it. I This is so funny. I recently bought this, but I feel like it was called Bennett Burch. But ah, this title is something along the lines of like it's okay to be dislike the power of being disliked. 

Mason [00:48:09] Yeah I think I've seen it in our Kindle thing. 

Meg [00:48:11] Yeah. No, I got like the physical copy, but I, I purchased it after I had a little at a. 

Brian [00:48:17] Bar and I forgot about it and I found. 

Meg [00:48:21] It on Mason's nightstand because I see like you unpackaged it from Amazon. This is like a few months ago and I just put it on his nightstand. I'm like, Oh, okay. Like, here's another book that came in and I walk in also on another bar and I was like, What a silly book to get. And he's like, I didn't get that. I'm like. 

Brian [00:48:37] Oh. 

Meg [00:48:38] Then I realized I'm like, Oh, I guess Meghan's trying to tell me things I used to work on. 

Brian [00:48:43] It's okay to be. 

Meg [00:48:44] Like, Okay, I will start reading like and it was a really good book. 

Brian [00:48:47] Also like liked hobbies and things, but it's so. 

Meg [00:48:50] Funny on how even like the edible brain are not even like the like I'm not completely conscious of what I need to work on. It's so interesting to not go right to the scriptures again. I'm like, okay, I'm struggling. Got to go to this chapter. It's like, there's some great books out there that will really teach you some really awesome things about yourself. And the best part is that you don't have to guess, right? Because there's so many things in the in the scriptures, you're like, Oh, tell me, what is this analogy trying to teach me right now? And instead, I can I can go right to a book that says like, oh, my gosh, I think I'm scared of being disliked. I think that is an anxiety of mine. And I think it's a pretty universal anxiety for people like to be liked. I'm like, Michael Scott. Do I do I have to be liked? 

Brian [00:49:32] Yes. Yes. I need to be like. 

Meg [00:49:35] And I think there's a time where I was kind of going through that on, Oh, shoot, I think I have more of that than I think. And there's a book on it, who would know? And then think like a month. One of our favorites and Brené Brown's new book, The House of the. 

Brian [00:49:49] House The Heart. 

Meg [00:49:50] Amazing book. Amazing here and so many things on on anxiety and and fear and, you know, teaching yourself things that you didn't even know that you really needed to work through. And it's like, weird. Why do I feel so much better after I read this book? Like, Oh, because it's teaching you real tools. Yeah. And how to be better and how to be better to myself and better to the world, you know? 

Brian [00:50:13] And a lot of it's based off of research. 

Meg [00:50:14] Absolutely. Very straightforward. Yeah, factual. 

Brian [00:50:18] Yeah. 

Meg [00:50:18] Yeah. That's been really good press. Is that like the type of. Yeah, yeah. 

Brian [00:50:22] Yeah, yeah. 

Meg [00:50:23] It's there's some humbling moments in there because I know. But what was the book I just recently bought on Anxiety here with the title of I Have to Send It Over to You. But it's, it's like combating anxiety and, and digging deep, like, and it's hard not to feel like the author's blaming you when, when you're listening to it. Yeah. Like, if you feel like this, this is why. And you're like, I don't be like, oh, why did I get this book? And it's, you know, being vulnerable and being open and realizing that there's some good things to work through. But how do we be better? Oh, well, we name what we're working through and and figure out what needs to change, or at least do better. But everyone has things to work on. Yeah. To look through. 

Brian [00:51:03] Well I think it's human nature to, to ignore the things that we really need to work on and tell ourselves now. We don't need to work on that. You're good. You're. That's fine. That's not you. You don't have that. It's like, no, that's the one thing when you feel that that's like, okay, that is a book you absolutely have to read. 

Meg [00:51:16] And if there is a book that was written on it, chances are you're not the only one who's going through it. 

Brian [00:51:19] Right? Right. Yeah. 

Meg [00:51:21] If there's a five star review on Amazon just by. 

Brian [00:51:24] Millions of people. 

Brian [00:51:25] Yeah. 

Meg [00:51:26] Probably it's something so little, but that's something that was helpful to me on like I see 30,000 reviews on it and I'm like, Oh, okay, I will be 30,000 on one review. Then I will I will put myself in that box with these other people and how we're trying to grow and be better. And it's funny because I think that can be looked at as what you said. Oh, no, I don't need to work on that. But how many things are we told you are in the church on? Oh, you're struggling with this. And there's this insecurity, there's this trial you're going through go the scriptures. Everyone has baggage, everyone has heart things. Instead of going to one book, go to multiple that will really dig in deep on how to really come out on the other side a little bit stronger. Yeah, I hate to say like I don't pictures people, but I like the straightforward. Direct research, he Ph.D.. 

Brian [00:52:11] People write. 

Meg [00:52:12] Early. Tell me what's going on chemically in my brain or tell me how to be better research base so valuable. 

Mason [00:52:18] I feel like I was just going to add that. I think one of the other benefits and things that we've really focused on is is embracing humanity and seeing people as, you know, we're all in this just doing our best. It's crazy that leaving Mormonism, I'm able to see other humans in a much better light and I'm able to give them more grace than I had before. Yeah, because I'm not better. I'm, you know, like, your struggles are just different than mine. And it's crazy how I've been able to love people in a different way. Yeah, I don't see them and immediately think you're pretty cool, but you'd be better if you were an older fun person. Yeah, it's like, no, you're just great how you are. And I can meet them where they are. 

Meg [00:53:02] And you. 

Mason [00:53:03] Are. Yeah. It's helped me with a lot of my family relationships. Yeah. Because I can see, you know, cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, whatever and recognize them as imperfect just like I am and scared just like I am. Yeah. And it's it's so cool that I meet my neighbors. And not once do I think you could be a little bit better as a mormon version of yourself. 

Brian [00:53:24] What were you doing on Sunday, though? 

Mason [00:53:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what's the temperature of your caffeine like? 

Brian [00:53:30] It's. 

Mason [00:53:30] It's I don't think about that anymore. Yeah. 

Brian [00:53:32] I've said this before, but it's, it's, it's strange, but I actually feel like I'm a better person. I'm a better Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Now than I was then for sure. 

Meg [00:53:41] Is. That's so funny. 

Brian [00:53:42] It, it it's kind of interesting. 

Brian [00:53:44] Yeah. Yeah. 

Meg [00:53:45] That one's a hard like I'm not tongue on on like I'm a better Christian than you. 

Brian [00:53:50] Well, I think it's so funny because I have it all the time. 

Mason [00:53:54] I think it's so funny that, like, you tell people that they are better than other, you know, we have the truth, the truth, we have the truth, and I can help you. So you're immediately setting up a dynamic where we're looking down on them. Yeah. And you wonder why people feel judged. You wonder why people, you know, view that Christian help as not really what I need right now. And yeah, like the church sets you up, but in a way that you do look down on others because we have the truth. I have something that you don't have. Right? And not only is that thing important, it's the most important thing. Yeah. And you get rid of that and it's like, okay, now we're on the same. Now we're on the same playing field, right? We can see each other the same way. And as you, you read studies about people, even if someone has a higher chair than you do. Right, immediately their actions change and how they interact with that person. Yeah. And you think about it in a, in a, you know, spiritual sense, we would do the same thing. We look up at our leaders and we will look down on those that are our sinners are aren't exactly where we need them to be. Getting rid of that, I can look at people in a much better light. Yeah. 

Meg [00:54:59] Wow. There's such a part of that at the bullet, like super personal woman card. But there's a big part about being a woman leaving the church on. I think being like Mace, being a man. There's always someone to look up to in the church, right? Like you said, with the with someone as far as leadership, there's always someone to look up to and there's always someone looking down on being a woman in the church. There's no one I'm looking down on hearing me. I have no say. I have no control over anyone, not even myself. I don't even get to look at myself as someone that I have full control over because someone always knows better. Someone is always gonna say, Let me help you. I have to get permission to do things. I don't have the priesthood. I can't even make myself feel better when I'm sick because I kept my own hands on my head. You know, I have to ask for everything as a woman in the church, and I think that's a process to go through on not only feeling not being a mormon anymore and always having that judgment on the leadership, on the Christianity feel. But also as a woman on like just in my identity, it doesn't matter what choices I was making, didn't matter if I was a Christian or not. Just by being a woman and something that I of who I am, I, I can't trust myself. I don't have a say for myself. I also don't have an input to help others either. I don't get to tell, you know, I don't have as much say as if a man went to the bishop or the first counselor. What the bishop said, I have this idea. What if we did, Blake? How would this help the congregation? You think? Like, if a woman goes to any church leadership, things are ever changed. Like, look at General Conference. There's challenges and things made by men and ideas. And there's three women to every 20 male speakers, you know, and they don't have a say. They don't get to influence or change choices or the way of decision in the church. And there's no one that we would get to influence. And they always look down on anyone, and I don't want anyone to look up at me. But there is this hierarchy in the church and it's all men. And the women were always be at the bottom. And like what me said, there's a process of going through that as a ex-Mormon. But as a woman, there's like another layer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Trusting and knowing what intuition as the woman is, you are. You. Your whole life. Mm hmm. You know. Is that to an operative? 

Brian [00:57:12] No, it's. Gabby and I have had this discussion, and it's kind of interesting, because when whenever there's an organization, men tend to climb to the top of the organization, and the. And what's good for what's good for me is what's good for everybody. And I think the natural female perspective is if it isn't good for everybody, it's not good for anybody. 

Brian [00:57:34] Yeah. 

Brian [00:57:34] And they would not rise above because we all need to work together and we all need to raise the entire community. We're not trying to raise it's one person or two people or whatever above. It's it has to work for everybody. Mm hmm. And so, yeah, that's an interesting parallel to it as well. Yeah. 

Meg [00:57:52] A lot of my favorite quotes are bigger, though, asking that men not that women want to be higher than men, or that we are not asked to be more than men. We just ask men. 

Brian [00:58:06] Yeah. 

Meg [00:58:06] And there's there's a lot of that in the church and people don't want to admit to it. But women are not equal in the church with hardly anything. And to say that motherhood is the same as the priesthood, that's, you know, not even comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing an apple to a cheeseburger. It's not even to the same idea. It's not at having no. 

Mason [00:58:23] Cheeseburger without the priesthood. 

Brian [00:58:25] Yeah, exactly. You know, it's it's. 

Meg [00:58:30] Hard to feel like, oh, I want to be able to help people. I want to help a congregation. I want to help a group of people learn to do better. But my answer is no. Your body is good enough to produce more people. That's what your job is your ideas, your feelings, your thoughts, your your influence that you really want to make on people. Not just mine, but I want it for other women too. It's not important. 

Brian [00:58:49] Enough. Well, and if you look at the stories and the symbolism, which is a lot of religions. Mm hmm. That's baked in at every layer. Yeah. If you look at a really close, you see it on every layer. It's like, okay, so it wasn't accidental. Mm hmm. It is literally in the DNA of the organization. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you kind of wonder. 

Brian [00:59:11] Yeah. 

Meg [00:59:11] The that's a good deconstruction moment, though. I think that's on. I'm still going through as a woman is feeling smart, feeling like my ideas matter. I've got I think I've I've made some progress, but I don't know if Gaby has felt the same way, if she's shared things with you. Are I that's one I've heard with women a lot is it's such a weird word but feeling smart because after your ideas are so shoved away, you start to not feel smart enough for your own well-being and making your own choices. And what's good for our family, what's good for my friends, my community. It it does translate to others. 

Brian [00:59:43] Your own life and your own body. 

Brian [00:59:45] Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:59:47] And that's just your life that you were talking about community where your life and your body. 

Meg [00:59:52] Like, I don't even know. I'm not smart enough to know. It's good enough for me. That's so sad. 

Mason [00:59:56] It's. We talk about feminism. That's something that I I'm proud to be a feminist. I mean, it's so funny because when I was younger, extremely conservative, feminism was like a derogatory term for sure. Like, that's bad. And you are thinking about all these things. Sometimes I feel like I'm not a true feminist because I hate every time that I empower my wife, my life gets better. And so it's almost like, am I really like am I really a feminist? Because every time I give Meg more you yeah. More, whatever I like, my life gets better. Yeah. You know, and it's like it's this is an approach probably. But we were talking about empowering her, actually, and it's like, did you give your wife a vibrator? All of a sudden you are in a much better place. And it's like a lot of people would look at that the opposite and say, Oh, I don't know about that. Don't do that. Like, trust me, go ahead and make that happen. Empower your women in your life and your life will be so much better. 

Meg [01:00:51] That's the first step to being a feminist. 

Mason [01:00:53] Truly. It was like. 

Meg [01:00:54] Really, if you want to be a. 

Brian [01:00:55] Feminist, it's true. 

Mason [01:01:01] It's not just sexually. 

Brian [01:01:02] But like. 

Meg [01:01:03] It translate. Like once you figure out like it's women have a voice than women. 

Mason [01:01:07] It's a very easy first step. 

Meg [01:01:09] It's a very easy phrase. 

Mason [01:01:10] But like we talked about, you know, when we make decisions, it's like, I am so grateful that I have someone that can cover my blindside. Yeah. When I don't think about the emotional side as well, I am so grateful that she's there when. When we need to take care of someone like Christmas. Meg is so good at taking care, of recognizing and remembering here the people that we need to look out for. Great. I will follow you on this and I'll be there with you. Like, I just love the idea of when we empower those women in our lives, our lives get better. Mm hmm. And, you know, if you're against feminism, you're just hurting yourself. Like, you know, you're hurting, obviously, those women, but, like, your life could be so much better. 

Brian [01:01:47] Yeah. Society could be better. Community could be better. Families could be better. 

Mason [01:01:51] Well, you know, it's really interesting. You talk about the difference in businesses, you know, and some of the tendencies of women to want to bring everyone else up. Mm hmm. Can you imagine what some of these organizations would have if women were given opportunities to do that? And if you could balance. Right. You have someone that's really focused on let's move. Forward and someone that's saying, let's move everyone forward. Both of those together are a powerhouse. Yeah. 

Brian [01:02:13] So I, Gabby and I had this conversation recently talking about the pyramid, and it's mostly men on top and they like they need to. She said, Well, they need to pull the men up to their level. And I'm like. 

Mason [01:02:22] I pull the women. I agree. 

Brian [01:02:23] With them. Yeah, yeah, you help them get up there. I said, they kind of need to do two things. First of all, they need to get off of the top of the pyramid and stuff and get underneath and push from the bottom. 

Brian [01:02:32] Right. Yeah. 

Brian [01:02:33] And make space for them because they need to be up there and the space they need is yours. So get out of the way and then help them get there. And pulling them up to your level is like, no, you shouldn't be there anymore. Can underneath them push them, you know, get them up there a little faster. 

Meg [01:02:47] Amazing point. I love that. And stop believing that you deserve to be at the top. Right. It's so funny on I'm seeing work ethic too and just seeing how men and women work. And I be such a, I don't know, broad thing to say, but it's hard that sometimes I feel like men can just receive more opportunities both in the church. And I think hopefully the corporate world is getting a little bit better and more progressive. But something in the church, something that was so bothersome to me on maybe some leaders, men, obviously, where I'm like, what are you saying? What are you doing? Like there's so much disorganization, some unkindness, some very like what? Like who thought that this would be a good point of leadership for you? And then there's women who are just straight, incredible. And I go, Well, what would happen if you were bishop? Oh, but you can't because you're just a woman. But and I'm not saying I haven't had great leaders because I have, but it is it is based on personality. It is not based on sex. And it is exhausting having that conversation constantly. So many women I know, I'm like, who knows if I'd still be in the church if women were able to leave things? Because I've known amazing woman that did not have a voice and that's that's annoying to be around especially when you how you give men a voice who maybe shouldn't have a voice yet. Maybe they need to do some some growth and some improvement. And the only improvement a woman can make is in her home. And that's it. 

Brian [01:04:03] Being around and being surrounded by it. Yeah. You know, and seeing that as your that's your model everywhere. 

Mason [01:04:09] Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's when you look at those gender roles and the norms that we've established, you know, you think about how many wonderful workers or whatever leaders, whether it's men or women, how many positions like how many presidents have we missed out on that were women that could have developed into fantastic leaders, but at a young age, they were taught that their place was at the home, right? It's like we've missed out on fantastic minds. That could have been something. But because they were pushed into a corner, you know, it didn't go that way. And kind of on the other side there, how many fantastic dads could have been home and done so much in in the house and in different areas that they weren't allowed to be in or it was it was, you know, frowned upon. Right. You look at that and you just say, let people be. 

Brian [01:04:55] People, meet. 

Mason [01:04:56] People and you're going to get what they're going to, you know, their talents and their specialties are going to continue to develop. And if we can help them develop that, it doesn't matter what your genitalia looks like. Yeah, it's it's who you are and. Yeah. So I just love that. 

Meg [01:05:11] Yeah. Let people be people who cares. 

Brian [01:05:13] Let people be their best people out there. Yeah. 

Mason [01:05:17] Help them get there. Don't look at someone to be like hey you would fit better in this cool. 

Brian [01:05:20] Shouldn't be. 

Mason [01:05:21] Yeah no be whatever you want to be and like own it and help them get there. I all of that is. 

Meg [01:05:27] If that was pushed, think of the movements we could make as a nation as, as communities. You know, I think of like LGBTQ community too, especially, you know, the trans community has had quite a rough go the past few months. There's been a lot of death and murder and and terrible things happened to the whole LGBTQ community. But my heart really goes out to trans people because those are people that I I've had somewhat of an insight of what those transitions can look like. But I look at them as strong, confident, brave, so brave, really, really hard things to go through and come out on the other side and be out be fighting for other groups of people, for fighting for kids and wanting to create really a safer place in the world and having a having death and a follow you sometimes like seeing so many there is, you know, I'm so sad reading the news and people that are murdered and what happened in Colorado. And there are really scary things happening out there. And I go, not only should we take our foot off their necks as a nation, but think of what these people could do with these traits that they have the bravery, the intuition, the confidence that they have in themselves to make this self as a personal change within themselves. What if we took their talents, their their capabilities and strengthened those again, going from the bottom and raising them up? Imagine what we could do as as people, as human beings, if we just let them not only let them be here, but let them thrive. You know, it goes with women in the church, but it goes with every minority on why the hell are they a minority? Oh, because people just don't like them. Okay. So then they don't have traits and talent and capabilities that would make. Are people better? Like, Oh, it drives us crazy. That's the conversation we have all the time in our home. On what if we were just not only leaving them alone, but helping, helping. 

Brian [01:07:18] And helping them be their best selves? 

Meg [01:07:19] Yeah, we're so good at helping other groups of people in our incarnation. Why are we not helping people who recognize their talent? Thanks to, again, human experience. People. Let people be them. 

Brian [01:07:31] Yeah. Get to know. 

Brian [01:07:32] Them. Yeah. 

Meg [01:07:32] Everyone seems to know the homeless people. Yeah, exactly. Brave people. 

Brian [01:07:36] Okay, you guys, the closing thoughts. We cover it all. 

Meg [01:07:40] Yeah. Just be you. Figure out who you are, I guess. And titles are dumb. Don't let a title follow you around. And I think the title of your name is such a beautiful thing. It's hard not to find the title. There's a lot of titles they gave away, like being a mormon. And I recently quit being a teacher. Really hard one. I loved being a teacher, but it wasn't me being a teacher. Is Meg being a teacher? It was who I am. I was good at that. And now I get to work with my husband and make it work. But to make it still work with the company and make it a great marriage and make a good home and make can do things better. I mean, it's not a title that I have. And I think as soon as we recognize titles don't have as much emphasis, we will really let people be people and let them be them. I think it's about closing thoughts. 

Mason [01:08:30] I Yeah, echoing what Meg said, I think not focusing as much on those titles or labels that we give ourselves and focusing on. And the human side of it, you know, minus is kind of cliché or cheesy, but just leading with with love and understanding is always the best way to do it. I as I've grown in this transition, I started out very angry and I wanted to convince everyone that something that I thought was evil was just as evil to them. And as I've stepped back and really tried to understand people better and my leaders better and my family that are still devout Mormons. It's helped open that communication and soften hearts. It's really hard to get someone to change through force and anger and all those things. But by approaching with love people, people can change, people will improve. And you know, it's doing it the right way. And 99% of the time it's both with love and compassion. 

Brian [01:09:27] Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for both coming here. 

Meg [01:09:29] Yeah, thank you. The get good shots are always a fun time with you, so it's great being here. Yeah. Thanks for giving people a space to talk, but also for people to listen. I think there's a lot of quiet listeners out there on your page. My listeners are. I hope they feel powerful listening to your story. Then what? I think there's a lot they about people who are quiet, who are not in space to talk yet. I think it's a beautiful thing about what you do. Thank you. World the better place because of you. 

Brian [01:09:59] So what did you think? This was the second encore. And I'm very curious to hear your feedback on both the Jackson episode and this one with Meghan Mason. What did you like the most? How could I make them more interesting or better? What question should I be asking? What questions would you like them to ask me? What other guest would you most like to hear from? What do you want me to ask them? Do you like the idea of having them as a bonus episode once a month? More, often less. Please send your feedback to Bryan at Strangers, you know, podcast dot com. I do reply to every email I receive. Also, you may have noticed that I have added significant content on social media and Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and have improved my show notes and added a blog to my website. I would love your feedback on what information you found to be useful, annoying, easy to share or whatever. My career in startups is taught me anything. It's the importance of listening to your audience. I can't do that if you're not talking. So feedback, feedback, feedback. Oh, and while you're at it, why don't you leave me a five-star rating on Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform? Every five-star rating makes a huge difference. And I will love you forever. You might even be surprised by some prerelease show merchandise from your favorite podcast. Thank you for listening to Strangers You Know.