Neil (Part 2) - The Cost of Waking Up

SYK Episode 117: Neil (Part 2) – The Cost of Waking Up

MUSIC

Neil [00:00:03] Here's what I think. I think that the world is waking up. The world is waking up to harm. I think the world wants to be a nicer, kinder, gentler place. And I think we all are learning a lot of things. And I think we're all waking up to the fact that this thing that we used to so flippantly believe is harming evil. So these institutions of truth and righteousness are now the harbingers of harm. We see that now, and I think that's what's going on. 

Brian [00:00:32] Finally, today is part two of the conversation I had with Neal over three months ago. In this episode, we talk about waking up, putting off the pretender within each of us and the necessity and cost of advocating for others. We consider the importance of love as an overall part of health and fitness. Pulling no punches, we may even rattle a few emotions on today's episode of Strangers, you know? 

MUSIC

Neil [00:00:57] So some of the things that are on my mind is how to advocate. Okay. As you know, last year I tried to advocate for really the first time, like I really threw my hat in the ring for the first time. Problem was, I thought I was super funny. Turns out I'm not. I am to some. Some people thought it was pretty funny, but Linds and I got canceled over that, and it scared me away. You can tell months later we continued to do it just as kind of a middle finger to the world that we kept going. And I find myself. Last year I found myself scared, unwilling to kind of put my neck in the stick out my neck, my, my, whatever in the ring, whatever you toss in the ring. I found myself just excited to do that and then too scared to do it. And June is coming up. Yeah. And I would like to begin advocating again. We got letters last year. That silly little tick tock channel that we did make you cry. That made us bawl. 

Brian [00:01:47] They were in a good way. Yeah. Okay. And tacking. 

Neil [00:01:49] But no, no, I guess in a bad way too. Because one hand, like, you were so happy that maybe you touched somebody. Also, you're sad as hell that the shit goes on in the world. The kind of derogatory statements that people make. That kind of persecution is literally thrown on to some people who are writing to us and telling us their lives stories. You know, we had 10,000 followers. We had nothing right. And we did some LGBTQ stuff. 

Brian [00:02:15] And it's give me some specifics. We're kind of dancing around what you did and what feed what the canceled was. Yeah a little goes on that. 

Neil [00:02:22] Yeah well it's hard to know we got canceled for I think a lot of reasons. I don't think it was because of anything that we said. I think it was that we said anything is what we got canceled over a year later. Now they would have told you that were making light of sacred types of that can't all the way be true. But so Linds and I made a Tik-Tok channel. We were driving to a car show on the 4th of July, and we're just like, we are tired of sitting back and watching things in the world and not having a voice like I didn't like. Anybody is going to give a damn what we say, but we ought to say it anyway. And so we're like, Well, how should we do it? I'm like, Well, I don't know, how should we do it? What are your issues here? The issues, you know, you've got issues like racism and sexism and homophobia and transphobia, and there's just you can just go down the list of it. I don't have a voice in that. I'm a 50 something year old male, never put my voice forward. And earlier that day, been watching one of my favorite tech talkers, Kevin James talk. And Kevin James Thornton was like, he's a tick Tucker gone famous he's got millions of followers now. But when I was watching him last year at this time, he was really kind of nothing. And he made this heartfelt plea. He was like bump into people all of the time. I'm outwardly openly gay at this point in my life, but I was raised a religious fundamentalist Christian, and I was the strongest of the fundamentalist Christian. And I was always like, you know, fighting and being a warrior for Jesus and putting people down. Because the whole time I was hiding this homosexuality and it was just this dark little stain on my world. And he was like, now, here I was being openly the word homo where you're against homophobic. Here I am being openly homophobic in a very Christian quote unquote manner. And I was persecuting everybody. I very attractive was acting. So he's got a really cool channel if you ever get a chance. He's super, super funny the way he does everything. But there's one that he wasn't being funny. He just looks everybody in the eyes and says, So now I'm walking through my life and I'm running into people and I don't know. I don't know where they stand. I remember who they were in high school, but that was 35 years ago. He goes, and I don't know where they are now and I'm scared. I have fear. I look at people and I go to have a talk with them and in the back of my mind I'm like, Oh, is this somebody who will be against my lifestyle, against me and literally do things that would harm me? Because it's not just like you look down and talk down to me. That would hurt me for sure, because but you would go to the voting booth and vote away my rights. You would go to the voting booth, find a way to oppress me in ways that you would never be willing to be oppressed. And it touched me. I'm listening to that guy going, What? Yeah, yeah, you're right. Here I am. I'm a 52-year-old male of some influence little. Right. But what I do have, I have and I ought be using it and I don't I'm scared. And he was like, Well, so do me a favor, would you, please, if you aren't on in that same place anymore, if you're not in that same homophobic place that we all were in, the hate, he goes, Dude, voice it. It would really help me because I don't know where they are. I don't know where my enemies are. And there are a lot of them. I was one, too. I know. So he's like, it really inspired me. So I'm talking to aliens in the car. We're going to the 4th of July thing, and I'm like, I ought to just say it. I got to get on set. I remember there were a few guys that we suspected as being homosexual in high school, in, my God, the shit we did and said to them it was evil. It wasn't right, you know? And I like to sit back and go, but it was the eighties and we didn't know. Fuck that. That's terrible. We did. No, it wasn't decent, it wasn't human and it shouldn't have. But that's how were. Right. So I thought that's where we start a start there. Anybody who doesn't know where I stand today. I'm sorry. Hey, I'm sorry. Be. Changed. See? God damn me for the stuff I said. Please. And so we made that one. That was our first one. And we both kind of said that. Then were like, Well, here's some sexist stuff that we ought to talk about and just wouldn't like. Right. 

Brian [00:06:07] All in the same weekend. All on the same day. 

Neil [00:06:09] We made for on the way to log on to the car show, and we made four and were doing it super late. The first one wasn't, but the other ones were very lighthearted, you know. And the thing is, as we both come from this staunch ass background, you know, and so those are the places that went. And I've kind of found out that the reason went there was because of the trauma we have that is surrounded by that. And so were were making references to Mormons, I guess can't say Mormonism or been out of it long enough that I guess if you say Mormon now, you're being super cruel. And I don't mean to be cruel. I was a more I went on a mission. I did it all right. So it was like were doing it. Hey, Mormon, here's a thought for you. And we thought, well, what we do is we'd make this channel that was somewhat lighthearted. We'd make jokes of things, but we would we'd have a serious undertone. And so we'd be like, Hey, Mormons, you know, there's sexism exists. And if you wanted to really see that, like just go look at a picture, the leader, just type it up in your computer, do it right now and just count female to male ratio. You know, there's, there's like 100 or so males, most of them white. At the very bottom of the page, in the smallest pictures on the page, there will be three females. Right. Really? Just look at that. Look at it. You know, I don't know how were being funny about it. We've erased the channel and so it's kind of gone. But that was some of the stuff we would see. 

Brian [00:07:21] This channel didn't have any followers up until then. It wasn't your normal channel that you used for. 

Neil [00:07:26] No, we didn't start that channel until November. 

Brian [00:07:29] Okay. 

Neil [00:07:29] Okay. So this was July. We're like, tick tock is fine, do that and let's do it on tick tock because we can hide over there. I don't want anybody to see this. Not ever. Like, truly, I don't. So let's not together with our YouTube channel, we have a YouTube channel that we do all of this stuff on and let's not put that together with our Instagram, really. So we had followers on other social media stuff, but we didn't want to be associated with that. We just wanted to have a voice in another way. So we created this ticktock thinking nobody would ever see. 

Brian [00:07:53] And when did you realize that comments weren't appreciated? How long did it take for you to. 

Neil [00:07:58] About a month later we got a phone call on a Sunday night. Not a phone call was a text from a dear friend. Somebody that were we really loved, had been to her house, had done some stuff. Please cancel my membership at the gym. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, this is a friend. Like, why would she just drop us like that? So amazing to me. No explanation, no talk. You know, we wrote back something like, Are you okay? Is everything all right? Did something happen in your house? You know, maybe her husband's injured or maybe they had an accident. Like, we just wanted to see if we could lend support. She wouldn't take us back. 

Brian [00:08:28] No explanation. 

Neil [00:08:29] No explanation. So I kind of went to bed with a lump in my throat. And one of the first things that happened after I kind of thought, I hope they're okay was my I was like, did somebody see that? Yeah. You know, we're really trying to help here. But now in hindsight, a month later, I'm kind of see that probably pissed a few people are up. Oh, no, no, no way. And I said that to Lindsey. I'm like, no fucking way. There's just no way. Look, it's 20, 21. We've all come a very long way. If something doesn't stand up to scrutiny, it ought not be participated in. And if your church can't stand up to a little scrutiny, then it ought not be participated in. Then, if they're going to, they're going to laugh at me. Who the hell should take religious advice from Neil Anderson. Come on. Like a shitting thing I could say would have an impact in the world. Are you shitting me? You'd get mad at me about religious, about religion? No way. So I went to bed. I shrugged it off. I was like, Everything would be fine. 

Brian [00:09:19] I still didn't know what it was, but she was okay and it wasn't that. 

Neil [00:09:22] So I didn't know if she was okay. I was kind of excited to hear about it the next morning. I hope somebody knows about it, you know, or whatever. We come walking in the gym the next morning, places packed and they're all standing in a group. There's a female standing in a group. They got their arms crossed and they are glaring at me. And I don't get five feet in the door before one of them peels off and comes directly at me, points her finger and says, How dare you? I didn't know. However, in the back of my mind it was going, That's got to be that tick tock. Like it's got to be. But no, I'm just being paranoid, right? Scott It is like you're making fun of something that's very sacred to me. So that day, we're a very tiny organization. We were 200 strong on our best day. COVID wiped us out about three or 4 minutes from us, which now we're at running at 75% capacity. That day we lost another. And so now we're running at half past 80, devastated like people. They went on a warpath. They were so mad. First of all, they were over here screaming and I had to leave to go to school. Lindsey caught it desk. I guess they were spitting at her. They were so mad, frothing at the mouth, fingers up, screaming at her like, dare you do this? And they were warning her. They were like, You know who we are. Do you understand that we are 90% of us are Mormon, we're LDS. We are going to take this think they were very defensive. She's like, listen, I just I have some thoughts about it. I don't want to disappoint. I'm sorry that were like I guess it all kind of came in that day. I see, too, that were wrong in retrospect, I think advocation. I don't know. Maybe if you're comedian can make fun. 

Brian [00:10:49] They don't get away with much these days either. 

Neil [00:10:51] But yeah, maybe if you're a comedian, you can make fun. Maybe if that's your. Your job is to make jokes, to make light, to say things in rhetorical ways, right? Like then people can at least look and go, Well, he does this for a living. He is just probably painting with a pretty broadsword using a swath, you know. So I think if you're doing that, it's okay to be funny. I think if you're not that mock and so if I have regrets, regrets or that I didn't find a classier way to advocate, I would not have changed my application and I want to get back into it. That's how I got started. I would like to figure out how now to have that voice again or some voice, because it did resonate. And I think it did help. Yes. We got we got letters from the LGBT community coming in. We got thousands thousand. We had we had several of the videos go over a quarter million, thousands and thousands. You saved my life. I mean, I was in a really bad tore somebody side of the organization somebody outside of the LGBT community. I saw them advocating and I want to say thank you because I was there. I was right there at one of the we got dozens maybe. 

Brian [00:11:47] And this is the really the first time you said that you've given a perspective. We've stated your opinion on anything before. Then you didn't have that channel. You kind of kept your opinions to yourself. You leaves had changed a little bit, but you haven't really said anything about it until that prompt was Do me a favor. If you're out there, if you're for something, let us know. Yeah. So you did. And that was the result. 

Neil [00:12:05] Yeah. Yeah. The month after we begin to advocate and again that one was the only serious one. The other ones were like, hey, Mormons, you know, which apparently is a really bad thing to say to them. It was weird. I came up in the time of We should be proud of being Mormons. And there were billboards on the freeway about I am Mormon, right? Like it was strange to me that was and there were a lot of things they got mad about. And I've heard differing reports of what it was that pissed everybody off. I don't really believe it. I believe what happened was that there was some super toxic war with a lot of power. And this little community decided to make it time. I mean, we got harassed. There were there were people calling us at all times of the day. They were there were people that were coming to us two weeks after the incident, just like, hey, I'm still getting phone calls and I'm quitting the gym today because I'm sick of hearing from these people that were on a campaign making phone calls to others. Yet they were like, How can you still be a part of that gym? There were people that were nonmembers that were like, Apparently you've done a really bad thing. I don't know what that is. But calling me, I'm tired of the drama. That was a campaign they went on. It was it was one of the most disheartening things I've ever seen now compared to the way that the that are really persecuted. It's really nothing. But it got damn near broke. The it almost broke the bank. So we almost lost this. 

Brian [00:13:17] One post. If you say that was the one that you thought might have done it, one comment and one post is was more destructive than a year and a half ago or about is it about as. 

Neil [00:13:27] By very far to this day, there are still people that won't talk to us. They won't look at us as like on the street today in the roundabout waved to him and he was one of those that wrote to me and was like, Hey, man, the drama's gotten too much. I got to go. I'm like, How else? Like, we've thrown parties for each other. Can't fucking believe this. Also, the day before this, you were writing to me after having just gotten drunk your first time sneaking it behind your wife's back and writing to me because I'm the only heathen, you know, because you guys are so that and you're like, Hey, look at me kind of thing. And he's writing these this batshit crazy stuff like we all did when we got drunk. Maybe you never. But first time, I'm like, the hypocrisy of this act is beyond me. I really can't believe it. You're judging me like this. Is this really hard? From through the afternoon, I saw that. God. 

Brian [00:14:08] If you had any of the people that you lost during that time, you had them in the time since. Come back and sign up again. No, not a single person forever. Yeah. 

Neil [00:14:16] And some of these people were very dear friends. I had been training this one couple for 22 years, had been to both of their daughters weddings, like been to their house, socialized, gone out to eat with them. I went to their Christmas party for shit sex, you know, several times. And I wrote to him. The thing is, is after the incident, I had a thought. I sat down about it and I was like, You know what? This really was unfair. So I wrote a pilot and I went and I wrote it to each one individually. There were parts of it kind of cut and paste each of them. I started off with their name, all the people that I knew that had quit over the incident. I wrote to them and I was just like, I see now how thoughtless of that of me that I know that I've hurt your feelings. I know exactly what I did to hurt your feelings. And I wish I had. I'm sorry for having done it. I regret to. If I could take it back, I would. I won't do it again. And I have it. So I made my humblest apology. And even then, bullet were dear friends of mine. I would just get it right back. 

Brian [00:15:06] So what did you regret most about it? You. You had an opinion. You wanted to share your perspective. You picked a place that you thought was safe, that were as incognito as you could, created a new account over on TikTok, part of it. Do you regret the most. 

Neil [00:15:21] Being light hearted about very sensitive issues? I'm not a comedian. If I were going to do it again and I want to, but I wouldn't do it. Try to be funny. I just does come across as mocking. I don't feel like I was mocking. I was trying to call attention to a thing in a way that I think she needed me. And when you and I talk like we, we joke a lot, right? It is the Gen-X way. Yeah, right. And we're not, we're not very polished about it. 

Brian [00:15:44] Well, it's two of us, right. Yeah. I'm tell we got yeah. Yeah. For the most part and. 

Neil [00:15:48] Really kind of all my friends were exactly the same way. Just wickedly sarcastic and that's what I. Started with on that tick tock. My wife and I started with on that tick tock. So if I have regret, regret isn't having advocated. Okay, because that actually meant stuff meant something. My regret is the way that I advocated. I did it in a lighthearted way that I don't talk to people normally in a public way. And I think that offended them. I don't really think so. I think they got offended because of the issue for being honest. 

Brian [00:16:16] If you said it, that wasn't in a little bit of a mocking way. Do you think it would have had any different result? Oh, I mean, we're just guessing here. We're just spit balling. But if you had just said something and you tried to be kind about it and just stated something and still stated your opinion, but maybe not try to make it be so flippant, do you think you would have had the same effect? Do you think people said, Well, still it'll come in? I said, I'm offended. 

Neil [00:16:34] I had never even thought about that until this second, and I feel very strongly that has to be somewhat true. Like if I'd have been kind about it, nobody give a shit the fact that I was willing to kind of put my neck on the line, say it in a way that was provocative and I'd lost a lot family and I we lost a lot last year as we got pushed as deep into harm's way in terms of a business as you can get pushed personally and professionally. So the business really struggled, still struggled. The stress level went up. I had employees that had employee for 12 years. She quit. She was just like, can't be around you. I can't let her words to me where I can't let people think me what you represent. I can't let them. I can't be a person who advocates for you in any way. And I'm like, We've worked together for 12 years. We're dear friends like this, like sorry about 12 years. Being my friend and my employee treated her fair enough to keep her for 12 years. And on this one day, she's like, Sorry, this issue is something I can't abide. So that was tough. So we lost friends. 

Brian [00:17:31] Do you think that person, that employee still had somebody or several people still in her ear about I can't believe you're still there. Why haven't you left? The same reason this other guy left is like, I can't destroy him anymore. I'm tired of it. I can't make it go away unless I leave. 

Neil [00:17:44] Don't think she would have cared. She's a very independent thinker. I think that she put all of that together on her own. I bet you about you. But I'm also positive that her actions were applauded by letters from people that were like, Hey, I'm actually on your side, right? I'm grateful for you. I'm proud of you. And I'm at two letters. I'll show you two of them. They're like, I am. I applaud this. This is the greatest thing, but I'm out. 

Brian [00:18:07] Cancel my membership. 

Neil [00:18:07] Yeah, I'm out. I've got to go with the flock. 

Brian [00:18:09] And they did see me on the street. We don't know each other. 

Neil [00:18:12] I didn't say that. I would. I would guess that's probably not true. I don't know. These things seem super fake to me, so I can't know. Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of them since, but. 

Brian [00:18:19] So you haven't posted anything about that since you've been public with those opinions? 

Neil [00:18:24] Not at all. 

Brian [00:18:24] But there's a different feel at the gym. There are different messages that you've posted in different ways. 

Neil [00:18:32] But I know you. 

Brian [00:18:32] Still support. 

Neil [00:18:33] Ellen at that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:34] And even people just driving by can say yeah same old Neil. 

Neil [00:18:38] As kind of a. 

Brian [00:18:39] How did that come about. 

Neil [00:18:40] Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Right here is I put a LGBTQ ally flag in my front window business. We have a window that faces the a very, very active like street in the neighborhood. It's Main Street, as a matter of fact. So I put a great big LGBT flag up to show that I'm still an ally. The people that wrote to us, me in a way that I'm heartbroken, that I've let them down to the level that I have. I should have stayed with it. There were people that drove it. There was a guy that drove to our place from Oregon last year. You want to just want to come and shake our hands brought us a little gift. And then I had a guy come from it, just hugged him, but he drove up to say hello. Setting up parking lot 3 hours didn't dare come in. When he came in, he was shaking. Like you as a transgender guy, you tell male to female you so trans. I had a gal what I should say. I'm sorry I'm so unpolished this shit. But yeah, he came in, he was shaking. He was like, I just want you to know that this is the most dangerous place in the world for me as transgender. These places where people and this is they're the most dangerous place, places for a place I have the most trauma in the world or in locker rooms or in gyms. And he was like, But he came and did that. And so we put the flag up the first night I got ripped down by somebody I know we only have 100 people left. I would have known who ever taught. And this is. 

Brian [00:19:55] Inside. 

Neil [00:19:56] Inside, inside the gym. Yeah. So somebody tore it down, crumpled up and threw the corner. I put it back up lightly and I put. Yeah, that's true. That the next night it happened again. It happened again the next night. So somebody that was coming down. So finally I put cameras in the place and sees it. The cameras up, it's like, wow, we had people that drive by, they stop and they flip off the building like lock. Yeah. Like they're so mad, they're frothing and their fingers are in the air, you know? And you're like, first of all, you forget you have the flag up there because it's been a year, right? You know, then they're then you're like, why is that guy flipping us off? He looks so mad. You know him like, what is that guy? What is going on? Fuck yeah. How? And they're screaming it, they're stopped out front. There's people in there working out. You know, they're, they're just it's scary and like so weird to me. And at the same time, I get little notes pushed under the door. I've shown you those. Yeah, little notes pushed on a door just like I want to. I will say things like, I bet you I am the own business. Business. There's a lot of real brave folks that own homes in the area, but I know I'm the only business. Naw. Salt Lake. Bountiful Woods. Cross. Centreville. Farmington. There has a pride flag that is real. 

Brian [00:20:56] Yeah, you mentioned that the other day, and I've been driving around looking at him since. I'm like, He is right. 

Neil [00:21:00] I'm right. There's not. 

Brian [00:21:01] A single. 

Neil [00:21:01] One. Not a single one. And I'm disgusted by because it doesn't take much. It's a flag hanging in your place. And I get that you're going to lose business from that. And the thought is, well, you're going to gain business in other ways. You know, you don't, you know, yeah, you know, that's okay because that's not the reason you should do it. 

Brian [00:21:15] So other changes you've got, you've got on the back wall, you've got this multicolored L-O-V-E that you put up there that you painted on the wall. 

Neil [00:21:22] Yeah, four letters. 

Brian [00:21:23] It's got a big peace sign in the front that has the multicolored rainbow lights, LED lights that run around it. So yeah, it's you've, you've kind of bumped that up just a. 

Neil [00:21:32] Little bit thought on that. Is this like getting, getting people to come to me if they think that this is a physical thing that we're doing in that gym, they have the wrong idea. They're wrong about it. This is a piece of health. It isn't health, just a little tiny piece of it. There are other factors that make you healthy, and it truly does begin with love. Like you got to love yourself, you got to love your neighbor. There are so many things you have to love in order to be, like, healthy, you know, you have to love your life. You have to love your circumstances. So love is this an permeating thing that has really started to resonate with me within the last year? I kind of felt that for but when we got reached out so much on this ticktock being that we got to felt the love and we had Rosie O'Donnell like mention us and write to us like, wow, saying thanks and stuff. It was it's a big community that really people wrote to us. There was a guy that donated $100 to found way to donate us $100 to us and just said, I just want, you know, I support you. So went bought a bunch of pride flags and you got a few to. 

Brian [00:22:29] Get even out. A few we lost. 

Neil [00:22:31] We actually had a bunch of pride flags and we're mailing them to people for free. Just like if you'll display this will send you won't read. 

Brian [00:22:37] You mentioned back in the eighties you saw things a little bit differently. You may have been one of those people that drove by and saw a flag like that and slammed on your brakes and flipped them off and got mad. 

Neil [00:22:46] I would have thrown a rock. Yeah, I'd have broken that one too. 

Brian [00:22:49] So what do you think was the big probably? It's not one thing, but if you could pick the one or two things that have made the biggest difference in that transition from that's wrong, it's whatever and I'm against it to the exact opposite. What do you think are those big events or moments or thoughts that you've had along the way that have just kind of I mean, it's 180 for sure. 

Neil [00:23:11] Yeah, I would have to say my first thought was that these insults that I used to yell didn't have a face on. Nobody had a face. No. Anybody that was I didn't know anybody that was transgender. Now, in retrospect, I'm positive I did right. Since then I relatives of mount as homosexual aprons that you know so they never had a face and I was raised to believe through my I would say Mormon upbringing for sure, and also through just the conservative culture that I was raised in. I was raised to believe that homosexuality was a perversion. A perversion that to worse and worse, it starts with the little thing. And so homosexuality is a gateway. Next thing that happens is, of course, you're raping children. Yeah. After that, you're just this lunatic, this crazed person that's consumed with sexual desire, and it's unlimited. And it breaks down your self and society and your family and all of the things that I hold dear. I was told that to my face, this is a perversion. You can go read this through places in the LDS Church in their doctrine. This book, this from the pope, right? I remember very well perversion. I was also taught that it's not just a perversion. It's bad enough this person could have it and is going to do it themselves and everybody around them. But the other thing the thing that's really insidious about this is it's contagious. If you stand close enough to a person who's got this perversion, it was just weak minded because that's what it was. You were so weak minded that you overcame natural tendencies and desires that God put in you and you became wicked and evil, and then you became perverted and couldn't even help yourself. Now, if you and I stand close enough to that person, we're going to catch the gay stages. You're going to get it, too. And I was like, appalled by that. My God, this is going to corrupt me. This is going to hurt my family. This is just this got stopped. Grab your torches and pitchforks, everybody. Let's get to the top of the castle and storm it, you know, like we. This was a real thing in my mind. I believed it. I believed it, and then only believed it because the people that I loved taught it to so. And then, of course, you know, you had the regular high school banner by people that you love and admire and like and even don't even kind of like. But that was just like the vernacular, right? 

Brian [00:25:15] So how did you get from that to where you are now? What are the what are the big events that you can think of, the ones that made biggest impact? 

Neil [00:25:22] I went to Pride two years ago and I was overcome with what I was seeing. Have you been afraid? Holy shit. Right. So the stuff you see down there is incredible. And by incredible, I mean, like I was. I was covering my eyes, I was covering my children's eyes. I took kids, you know, they were crying, you know, it's just because they believe the same thing. This is a perversion and it's good they're going to catch it is going to ruin everything they know and love. So these things are just I mean, these kids are 13, 12, they're little. And this is what they still believe. There was a thing that spoke to me and Linz, and I've talked about it a lot. As I looked around, I found. People that were so open in their sexuality to the point where I was like, I'm a little uncomfortable and I was offended at first. I was like, How can you guys and gals do this? I see nudity everywhere. You guys are open, openly doing things that are sexual in nature. Like these are things that ought to happen behind closed doors. And that was what I was thinking. Time and on the way home just kept going. It just kept playing in my mind. And I went slowly from bended and angry to trying to figure out what I just see and why is that like. And I don't know, I sort of I became obsessed with it. I started looking at it, I started watching it on, you know, it. And what I think I learned and what I came to terms with for myself was these are people who only really one day or two per year can openly be themselves in a very conservative society. And I would think that if I finally got after having not had any chocolate at all ever, or candy or sweets at all one day, if you put me in a place that had it, I would probably slop it all over myself and go a little bit crazy, you know? And I don't say that to judge them. I don't mean that they're not going crazy. They're just for the first time in an open way, expressing themselves sexually. And I'll bet you there's some things to learn about that. You know what I mean? I remember when I very first started having, you know, thoughts of sexuality, I was very confused and maybe wasn't acting as apparently as I could. And who am I to say that they were acting appropriately or not? But I'm guessing they don't act like that all the time, and I shouldn't care if they do. And that was that hit me super hard. I was like, here's, here's here are some people that are so oppressed that they're acting in ways that are, but they're not. You're sitting in there with them in their quiet times. They're not only sexualized like that, weren't they had on there and they're not acting way. Anyway, so what. 

Brian [00:27:34] Prompted you to go to Pride? I mean, it seems like this is before you even thought about it or considered about it or maybe changed your mind much on it. I mean, why would you grab the family and say, hey, this is something we're doing this weekend? 

Neil [00:27:45] I was going through a deconstruction for my religion. I was going through that. And it was raising a lot of questions. You know, things that were a became absurd to me. It eventually all the stuff that I took as law, I'm writing a paper on it and call it the Book of Mormon and the professors like the fuck literally wrote that on the page is like, Are you shitting me with this stuff? And I was like, You're wrong, shame on you. How could you not? But I got to see on it. I guess they didn't dare fail me. I'm sure they would. I'm sure that would have caused an uproar. But I was deconstructing my religion. I was a very strong willed yes person at one point, and there were things that were coming up to me that were fantasy. They were ridiculous, they were silly. And it made me sit down and go, How wrong am I? I should go subject myself to other things that are outright wrong and see they are. 

Brian [00:28:32] What else have I been wrong about? Yeah, if I was this wrong about that, yeah, maybe. So let's back up a little bit cause that initial instruction, what was the thing that said, okay, this is. 

Neil [00:28:43] So this is really tough. The answer is I couldn't really tell you. I've always thought that I was the great pretender. I was raised in this super LDS community by super LDS parents in super LDS family. And the thing was that I had thought didn't seem like anybody in the world did. Yeah, I remember like I remember thinking how I thought girls were sexy on Gilligan's Island. Ginger Mary Ann. And they were doing something, man, you know? And I was like, sitting there looking around the room, like, it's like, everybody's seen this shit. Like, look at Ginger kissed Gilligan. Oh, my God. Like, I was making my stomach turn it, and everybody else in the room was just unaffected, 100% unaffected and more so you thought. Yeah, and like, how can this be? And so I would go and I would talk to my friends about like, Well, Ginger, did you see that? No way. They were going to talk to me about that. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm the evil one. And you hear about that guy in church right there, the guy that's insidious and evil and has all the thoughts and he swears in his mind. And someday I'll start acting like it. I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm that guy. I'm the one. I can't let anybody know. I got to pretend. I got to make sure nobody sees that I'm the guy with sexual urges. I would say stuff to girls that were, like, nasty and, you know, like, just give, like, sixth grade. And they would look at me like, how dare you? And I was like, Oh, it just came out like, Oh, no, you know, I thought I was the pretender. I thought it was the evil guy. I thought it was the guy they were talking about in the Bible. I thought I was him, and at some point I was just going to turn into him. But for now, while I got a little bit of a conscience, I'm going to try not to because it's going to be really hard to make friends and have a good life and all the stuff that I was doomed to this perverted life. I was going to be the drug guy for sure. I knew I was just based on what you guys are teaching me here, you know, I'm primary. This is the I'm the guy that you guys ought to be. And I know I am. So all of my life, I've always had a little bit of a side of your eye reaction to the church. There's always been a little bit in there that's been a little deconstructive. And I would listen to things more intently because I'm like, Well, I don't want to be the wrong guy. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to be the perverted guy, damn it. Yeah. 

Brian [00:30:39] And a lot of religions, it's like if there's a problem with that, it's something that you're doing right or you're not doing. Yeah. Or something that you could fix and you need to work harder at it. And right. So you go on, you keep going to church. You fulfill all your. Priesthood duties. You set up the chairs, you do all that good stuff. 

Neil [00:30:57] We will sketch our nine. Did my Eagle Scout team went on a mission or only went on a mission because there's this girl that said she wouldn't marry me if I didn't go. So, yeah, I was like, Well, I got to be the priesthood bearer. Yeah, damn right. I'll. I'll go on a mission then. I had no intention after high school. I was just going to slip off into my. My ways, you know? So I do things. I would party in high school and swear I was. I was like the only guy, I swear. And I was like, so I've always had a bit of a deconstructive slant on everything. Okay? I'm never all the way believed I was lying. Oh, God, I can't believe it. I would lie. I would a straight up lady feel the spirit. Yeah, Neil, I'm like, Yeah, you bet. And I wasn't shit. 

Brian [00:31:33] You're not the only one there ever. 

Neil [00:31:34] I never heard the still small voice. I don't know what the fuck that is. I couldn't describe it to you. All I know is this is what they said in church. And I just repeated that and I told everybody that's what I felt they would say. Did you pray about this and get answer? Yes, I did. And here's the answer. Right. And they would promote me to the priesthood leadership positions, you know, so next thing, you're a district leader and a zone leader, and you were the guy, you know, and you're speaking for Jesus. You're the guy and they're talking for the Lord. And, like, you're full of shit. I didn't I never heard any it. There was a point where I was like, well, you know, what, the thing is, is I must be too dumb. There's no way I could come up with these good answers. I'd be too dumb for that. It must be the Lord. It has to be so. I am here in the Lord. As a matter of fact, I'm not lying at all. It's all bullshit. 

Brian [00:32:16] So how so? How long did that continue? When did that say, Hey, I'm done pretending completely. 

Neil [00:32:21] I've had phases. I went in and out of it a lot. 

Brian [00:32:24] And so what? What does that phase look like? You just. You don't attend you. 

Neil [00:32:28] So the first phase is you're all in. Yeah, I am a Bible carrying soul. And I was too. I read every book several times. I'm talking Jesus the Christ three different times. I read all of the Scriptures over and over again. I got to highlight it, Mark the whole thing. Right? So you go in and you go all in as hard as you can. You're like, I must be the wrong one. Positive. I can change this voice inside of me doubting and all that stuff. All I got to do is just doubt. Your doubt. Put it on the shelf, come back to it later, like just work hard or believe part. That's what you got to do. So what, man? So I'd go through these phases where anybody that knew me down there in those phases would hear me now going, What the fuck? There's no way he was the most believing guy ever. He was the most spiritual guy ever. You know, I would be the guy correcting people for swearing in high school and grade school, and then I would be the guy swearing to so weird. So weird. You just learn to live Optimus life. And I couldn't stand that part of myself. I honestly hated myself for that. Which drives your self-esteem down, which makes it hard for you to try to stand out in any intelligent way. I think that's some of the harm of that kind of thing, actually. And then I would break away. I'd go get drunk on a weekend and, you know, do stuff with my girlfriend and be somewhat unapologetic about it. And then I back and go tell myself and get disciplined by the church and that happened all my life. Finally, I became completely inactive after this thing that happened to me down at gym in 060, sorry. 616 I had. 

Brian [00:33:51] So intense and you were just kind of fading in and out and. 

Neil [00:33:54] Was very, very strong in 16. I was a ward clerk, you know. 

Brian [00:33:59] So this is when you were one of the when you were all in this. 

Neil [00:34:01] This is during the time that I was all in Monday morning. So here's a story that happened to me. This is true. I enjoyed the letters Monday one Monday morning I came in and these this these people from Farmington started calling up the sixth or seventh. One of those I was like, What the hell? So the next lady called and friends. I asked her, I was like, What happened? What's going on? And she goes, Oh, you didn't hear. She was they had a priest of leadership meeting yesterday. They mentioned Jim by name. They told us not down there. They said it's evil, they're swinging, they're doing bad stuff. I'm like, What? Have you ever been to my gym? It's a one room place. There's nowhere to do anything. Like if you snuck out in there, like and ALS. Also, everybody that worked with me was super LDS at the time. I was super LDS owner where they came up with that shit, but people started quitting. So I quit. I'm like, Well, who said that? They're like, the Stake President. Are you shitting me? No, really? So I get, I find out who it is. I go, I write an email to this guy that morning and I'm like, Dear so-and-so, I'm like, Can't believe this. People are attributing your name and your words to this slaughter campaign, to this smear campaign against me. Like, Please help. There must be something there. He writes back. He's like, No, no, no, no. I did say, I'll write back. I'm like, What the fuck? Not really. But it was like, Oh, the shit. Like, Are you shitting me? How can it be? Like anyways back he says, Well, Lord told me, prayed on it, Lord told me and I'm just doing what the Lord said. I'm like, I think you owe it to me to come down here and look me in the eye. I think you need to shake my hand. I think you need to look at this place. I think you need to look at my employees like you need to come and see this isn't going on. This is this is utter bullshit. I'm question lord and that's where it and I was like from that minute on like it's all a lie. It is. It's alive. Tried so hard all my life and I've just been lying to myself. I'm done. Done. That's it. That was the final. That was. 

Brian [00:35:39] An. Okay, so then what was your next step? I mean, frustrated, angry at him, at that at his claim of hearing the spirit tell him that your gym is a swingers paradise. Yeah. And state that in a priesthood leadership meeting. Yeah. So. Obviously frustrated. 

Neil [00:35:55] I call my bishop. Next call I call my bishop. I call the mistake presidency. These are the leaders, you know, and bishops like, yeah, you got to talk to the state presidency, so I might take two of them. It wasn't the actual stake president. But you call everybody a president. Three of those guys, right? 

Brian [00:36:09] One of the counselors. 

Neil [00:36:09] Right. So to the counselors. Come to my house that night. You sit down, I'm like, Can you believe this shit? I can't believe this. This is terrible. This is not this should not how we know you. We can vouch for you. Yeah. This is just terrible. Terrible. They get quiet with me, kind of look around. It was weird. They're like, we want you to know that this is a travesty. This is terrible. And they're not saying, but somewhat. But if you will endure this, you will just I will see to it personally that you will be blunt. That's fucking weird. That's fucked up. You should be on your horse. We should be driving down to this other state president's house tonight, looking him in the eye, demanding the ship that you guys are going to sit here and cover him for him. This is not okay. We'll be blessed. And it wasn't a suggestion. It was an order. Shut the fuck up is what they were saying. You will be blessed. Shut up. This is not. Won't do it. No. So I never went back. It was too big of a chicken shit to really raise much of us and inept. 

Brian [00:36:59] So you didn't reach out to the stake president again? You didn't talk to an attorney. You didn't do I mean, all the different things you could have done. You're just like, you know what? This is it. You just step back from the church and said, Yeah, I'm done with that. 

Neil [00:37:08] Done. 

Brian [00:37:09] But there were I still sense that there are some steps between your anger and frustration at that point and taking your family to pride. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of what part of your deconstruction comes next or what are the other big pieces in there? 

Neil [00:37:24] So I hadn't gone for a long, long, long, long, long, long time. And I met some friends and I started sneaking stuff. So I started sneaking alcohol, drinking with friends. We'd, we'd do cigars and stuff. Meanwhile, my family is heavy more, right? Your kids are aunts and. 

Brian [00:37:38] Your immediate family or. 

Neil [00:37:39] Yeah, my ex-wife and my kids. Okay. They're heavy Mormon. Like they're going every week kind of thing. I'm just out. Right. 

Brian [00:37:46] So did you explain why or anything at that point or did you just say. 

Neil [00:37:49] Yeah, I did. But it wasn't really open. It wasn't it was an open conversation, wasn't something were allowed to have. It was a you see it different than I do. And we're not speaking about this. 

Brian [00:37:58] I'm not going think about what ever you want, but it's not happening. 

Neil [00:38:01] Yeah, that was where I stood on that and my ex-wife stood in on in the other place. And, you know, she comes from a very strong Mormon background. So, you know, and at the time, I was like, well, that's fair. That's fair. I'm the one that went off the deep end on the bad guy here. And I always have been, you know, like back about it. So, yeah, that's fair. I shouldn't try to interfere these people. I didn't believe any more, but I didn't have the tools yet to not all the way. Meaning like I was mad and I was rebellious and of course going off the deep end, but only had the tools to figure out like give myself permission to do that. Right. And so I started kind of reading stuff and I was stumbling on to stuff and I'd read stuff in The Book of Mormon. I would read stuff, you know, that were coming out to me that were just like, wait a minute, this whole thing might be a hoax. And so I would give myself permission to kind of look at that. Like it started off with the Word of Wisdom. The LDS Church has this health code that starts off. If you read it, it says something like As given to the members, just suggest not. It says not by comment. This is a soldier, this is not business, say a suggestion and then leaves the commandment part off because this is just suggestion, not a command. And this is coming from God. So God made this not a commandment, which today I have spoken lately is a command. It's absolutely commandment. You can't get to the temple if you break that commandment. That's not, in its own words, commandment. Right. And I always was like, look in that going, this is not a commandment, but this is a commandment. I can't go to heaven. I can't go to the highest level of having get my temple in all that stuff. So I'm out on this not commandment or shit. That's weird. Really weird. So that was a first one that, you know, it says something like you're allowed to drink beverages made of barley and like, what is there one, a grand total of one, and that's the one that's outlawed. Like you're not allowed to drink actual beer, according to the LDS prophets, but according to God, through His prophet, you're allowed to drink barley made. So that was always weird to me. I started seeing these weird dichotomies that, well, you can't stand on both of those legs. Those legs are too far apart from each other. You're standing on those. You're sitting, you know, like leg and stand up. Is it by commandment and is it a commandment or is it not a commandment? And did God get that wrong or did Joseph get that wrong? Who got this wrong? Who's responsible for this? This is weird to me. God change his mind. This, this the way that I understand stood God's nature was, you know, God was this unchanging all knowing I'm omnipotent being could he do a thing and put the word, not a commandment, and then make it a commandment later? Like this guy psycho weird to me. Anyway, a lot of that shit started to happen. Tons of it down a rabbit hole somewhere in 2014. I really saw of Teen. I think I stumbled on it and that's when it really got the I didn't know. I didn't know the questions to pages. 

Brian [00:40:35] And pages of them. 

Neil [00:40:36] Right before that, I had all these questions that I had, you know, like the whole original sin thing. So why did God invents in. Well, God didn't invented it. Man did. Well, God is one that made it. You know, he put Adam and Eve in this kind of impossible position where it was like, you're there, and I command you to make babies and. Plantation multiply and replenish the earth. But I also command you not to. This is a catch 22 and you guys aren't allowed to understand. Partake of the tree of Knowledge or whatever the fruit of knowledge. I don't know the whole story, but yeah, you're so you can't know to multiply and replenish the earth until you take partake of the tree of knowledge. But you're not allowed to partake of the tree of knowledge, but you're also not allowed to go multiply and replenish the earth which is the only thing you're supposed to do anyway. I'm like, fuck gods. God is like, he's a psycho. That's weird. And those things always stuck in my cross. 

Brian [00:41:22] So why do you think it was this time that those became a big issue, that you started to look into it as opposed to 20 or 30 years before? Because I would imagine some of those ideas crossed your. 

Neil [00:41:32] Mind in the mission field. 

Brian [00:41:34] In the mission field. And you actually probably had them put to you by people who were investigating the church, say, hey, what about this? And you're like, I don't have that answer. 

Neil [00:41:42] I went to Australia on a mission. Sorry to cut you off. Okay? No, I went to Australia on a mission. On the mission. The God Makers was a big God. Makers was this videotape that people could get and watch about why the Mormon Church is wrong. So we had this investigator that was investigator heavy. We were past the third discussion with her. She was like, you know, you only have six. And by now she's already committed to the baptism. She could just get the cut out, the coffee in the smoke. Right. So were on track. We were baptized in this light and baptisms are tough in Australia. You don't get them anyway. So she comes up with this tape of the God makers and I was like, What? And then she also had this summary of it about how Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Now, this is 1990. Nobody knew that Joseph Smith had extra wives back. As a matter of fact, we didn't just not know it. We were against it. It did not happen. In fact, that was it was like within that year or the next two years is when Hinckley goes on CNN to say, we disavow we do not there. I don't know anything about Joseph Smith and other wives remember that Hinckley said that right to everybody's. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know anything about polygamy. As far as I know. It's not doctrine. It never has been. We're just like, yeah, I was sitting they broadcasted that while were in a church in Australia as we all got to go watch it. Now look at our prophet. He's just speaking the word. The whole world's going to converge. They're going to come rushing to us. We were so excited. He's laying out his teeth. But I didn't know this. I was like, Yeah, that just happened to be at the time where this God maker's thing happens. Lady brought the God makers out and she's like, Joseph Smith had 40 something. What? Like, Oh, that's horseshit. She goes on to the. 

Brian [00:43:13] Mormon literature around Don't read that way from it. It's all lies. 

Neil [00:43:17] It's yeah, yeah. And so I start going down the list and there's a whole bunch of stuff on there and like in his own words. And then I'd never read Dante 132 or 2134 Which one is it? 132 The New and Everlasting Covenant. Yeah. 

Brian [00:43:30] So yeah, in the thirties, yeah. 

Neil [00:43:31] It's in the thirties. In C-130s. 

Brian [00:43:33] There aren't many past. 

Neil [00:43:34] It. Yeah. I'd never read that. It never came to me, I never saw that, I never discussed it in context. Then it's in there, it's in part of this pamphlet. It's like 21, 32, and like watch it open. 132 I pull it out. Oh, my God. Ever word for word, they're not wrong. Like, well, they must be putting a bad spin on it. It's exactly what it says. It's kind of like you have to have them. You're not getting into heaven unless you and like, well, now, how could Joseph Smith not have had extra wives? So I get on the phone, I get home that night I called the mission president. Mission president calls me back. You know, get back president. You get a letter, right? I get a call back. Elder Anderson, you're not to discuss this talk. What you're not to discuss this topic. Well, I'm just wondering, did Joseph Smith have wives? You're not to discuss. That's on, son. Answer. You're not to discuss it. I'm not going to ask you again. Fuck this. So this turned into, like, this obsession I started writing. You're supposed to write your mission president a letter every week. In that letter. Every week I would discuss it. I was just told not to. One night I get a call at my flat. Elder Lloyd P George of the area presidents. It calls me personally to tell me that if I discuss it one more time, if I bring it up on any level in a letter and he says this to my face, I'm on the phone. He's in New Zealand at the time I'm he called me from New Zealand and this is back when it cost it a lot of money, right? Elder Anderson, you're not discussed this amount. Not to discuss it partnership. You're not to discuss it to your president. You're not to discuss it to me. You're not to discuss the members and you're not to discuss it to with your investigators. If they bring it up, you are to leak was like what? I was like, well, obviously they're so mad because he didn't have wives. So I go to this investigator the next day and give this all bullshit. I talked to one of the president guys. He's way the hell up. He said, This is bullshit. That's all just lies. We baptized her. She believed me, talked her into years later. He's got a bunch of them and the church doesn't even deny it. Now, I would have gotten sent home from my mission had I said it one more time. That's not going okay. It's not okay. But. 

Brian [00:45:17] But you knew at the time that's not what he said. Yeah, right. He didn't say it didn't happen. 

Neil [00:45:21] Yeah, I know I didn't. So it's not what I heard. 

Brian [00:45:24] It's not what you wanted to hear, right? Yeah. So, yeah, you just doubt your doubts, right? You put, put it on a shelf and don't think about it. 

Neil [00:45:30] In my mind. I was told unequivocally that Joseph Smith did not have. 

Brian [00:45:33] Other don't get into any arguments about it otherwise. It just didn't happen. 

Neil [00:45:36] In my mind. It was this is don't discuss this. You've already got. He never said it. Now that I think of it, he never said the word. But a lie by omission is a lie. 

Brian [00:45:44] You get that from death, never mind. Miracle forgiveness. 

Neil [00:45:47] That's where I got it. I got it from there on book day. They taught me that, which is where I started getting to, you know, around. 14 or 15. Like you guys are not standing up to your own level. Truth, you guys can't you guys aren't who you tell me to be. If I did have to shoot that, I know you've done. And if you've invited the shit to you that you've done to me, I'd be in trouble. But you guys can do this stuff. 

Brian [00:46:10] Then you're saying, who? Who are the you guys? 

Neil [00:46:11] The. The church, the leadership, prophet, browser, you know. 

Brian [00:46:15] So what is going on now when so many people are constructing religion and bigotry and patriarchy and everything else? It just seems that is very prevalent these days. What do you what do you think is driving that or is that the case? Do you do you notice the same thing as me? 

Neil [00:46:32] Yeah, I definitely do. And it has to be the Internet. Right. You know, when you and I were kids, I grew up in the eighties. I was born in 1970. So when I was a kid, we believed in the church because the church was taught to us through people we loved. My grandpa taught my dad and my mom, dad. My mom taught me. And so if I were to turn on the church in the eighties, I wasn't turning on the church. I was turning on them because they vouched for the church. They told me it was true. And so for me to say I don't believe was saying, I don't believe you, dad, I don't believe you, mom. Right. And I couldn't have gone and found any of the questions. A Never would have known. The questions to ask be If I had the questions about Joseph Smith's polygamy back then, I wouldn't have known where to go look. And it sure as hell wouldn't have been in my local library, right? There would have been no place that I could go. I would have had to turn into a some sort of an investigator to really figure it out. And it would have taken me years, but it would have taken me years back then can now be done at the touch of a screen and people are finding it and it's prevalent. And I mean, they're not even trying to hide it yet. 

Brian [00:47:31] You mentioned that wasn't what turned you away from the church initially. It wasn't that you just had this thought that wouldn't leave you alone, that Joseph Smith had multiple wives and you just couldn't answer that. You put that on a shelf and you left in a out there forever. And it wasn't bugging you in 2016 when you said, I'm done. So why are now people? And they said later those issues started to come up with you. So why are people putting themselves why? How are they getting in a situation where they then start seeing these issues that have been there the whole lives and they then start thinking about them? What do you think's happening? They didn't have someone write a letter. They have a stake president announce something in priesthood leadership meeting about their place of business. Do you think is putting so many people in that situation or do you think they just run across some of this facts first? 

Neil [00:48:15] No, here's what I think. I think that the world is waking up. I think the world is waking up to harm. I think the world wants to be a nicer, kinder, gentler place. And I think we all are learning a lot of things. Right. I think the world in general is finding out that homosexuality is not a perversion and it's not contagious and it doesn't make you less. The problem is, is now we have these institutions and organizations like the LDS Church that are saying, no, it is you're wrong about that, and that's doing harm. And I think we're all waking up to the fact that this thing that we used to so flippantly believe is harming people. So these institutions of truth and righteousness are now the harbingers of harm. We see that now, and I think that's what's going on. I think we're looking at things like racism and we're going, Whoa, wait, that's not okay. These things that you guys were teaching me and things that pretty much all Christian religions teach things are not okay. 

Brian [00:49:04] Do you agree that as a group, you would be hard pressed to find a group of people that were kinder and more loving than Mormons? 

Neil [00:49:13] So that's a little hard for me to answer. Okay. Because I know Mormons and I love their hearts. I know they will give you the shirts off their backs and know they will walk through hell and high water for other people. In that same moment, they would raise their hand to the square and denounce somebody based on their identity. 

Brian [00:49:31] Why is that? 

Neil [00:49:31] Because that's what they're taught to do. And the problem isn't them necessarily. The problem is the dichotomy. The problem is that they don't necessarily see that is not okay. Like I'm literally as I sit here and denounce you and tell you that I love you, I, I don't realize this is not okay because, because we've been taught, especially me and I can't speak for all Mormons, but I can tell you that for me, I was taught how to lie. I was taught how to do. The mental gymnastics of Joseph Smith did not have a wife, but he did write in the DNC 3132 that you have to have extra wives. So he did not have two wives or three or 445, but he had to or he couldn't go to heaven. We're so good at looking at that and disassociating from that, and we can believe both of those and we can deny both of them at the same time. It's a real weird little gymnastic that mainly Mormons can do. They don't see that as a harm. You I can help and love you and those things live together. They're fine. They're fine for me to horn while I help While I pronounced my love for you I can drive you deeper into the ground and literally cause much harm to you as there is the harm they've learned to disassociate that. 

Brian [00:50:39] Yeah. I think that they are still very much black and white thinking or right and wrong thinking. There's a right way to live and be happy and it's hold to the rod and follow the prophet and all of those things. That's the right way. Anyone that's not on that light. One and only true path we're going to struggle. And at some point we know there are certain things that are so wrong. You just need to be excommunicated. You just need to be put outside the gate and just left to your own because we've tried everything. But if you insist on being queer or being whatever, these different things are. 

Neil [00:51:09] Black before 1970. 

Brian [00:51:11] Do not fit in here anymore. Yeah, right. We love you, but we don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. And you gave an example last time, and I may even try to match that into this discussion about your grandfather. 

Neil [00:51:22] Yeah, my grandma and grandpa coming. 

Brian [00:51:23] To my wedding. Yeah. Come to your wedding? Yeah. Because you chose to not get married in the temple and that was it. Yeah. 

Neil [00:51:28] They were like, Well, we'll come do it if you do it right. 

Brian [00:51:31] Yeah. And if not, then we don't even know who you are. I think there's another piece here and tell me what you think about this. You mentioned a point earlier that you had strong opinions for the queer community when you were younger because you didn't know any of them. You couldn't put a face on it. And I think, yes, a lot of these facts and truths have surfaced. Most of them are on the LDS website. It's something that five years ago they would have said is anti-Mormon literature is now posted on the LDS website as historical documents. So you don't need to look too far to find it, I think. And I think that's definitely has a part of it. Then you have the groups that can summarize a lot of these really tough questions that the church really can't answer into one CES letter and everybody hits them all at once. It doesn't come. It doesn't trickle in over time. It's here 70. Whatever questions that just come through and every one of them, the church says you're not allowed to talk about that. Yeah, that's the only response they can give. But I think more than that is people are seeing faces now of individuals that are being put outside and the like. Kit My neighbor, that's a really good person. I've admired that. 

Neil [00:52:34] Person. They'd never harm a fly. 

Brian [00:52:35] Right. And you're telling me that is the enemy to salvation? That is the enemy, too. I don't buy and I have a good friend of mine who has always been very devout member of the church, who is no longer a member. And the trigger for her was she had a Stake President come out as trans and of course the church not okay with that. And all she could think of is that is one of the most loving, kindest people I have. 

Neil [00:52:58] Met devoted to service and helped more. I have a friend that's a Stake President and that guy has been 50 something funerals in the last several years. Yeah, that's something. Yeah. 

Brian [00:53:07] And to say well now I have a face on it and it's not just a face, it's that person. 

Neil [00:53:11] I'll tell you. I tell you the thing, you know, it's yeah, it's this person, but it's also my face. I really believed I was bad. I believed I was flawed. I was afraid of who I was. And it held me back in more ways than I probably list, you know, knowing that I was the great pretender, that I was the great liar, that I was that little animal one, right? 

Brian [00:53:31] You're the only. 

Neil [00:53:32] One. Yeah, but I believed that. And I think that's the harm in it. I think the harm in it is when you tell a person their self-worth is based on this religion that can't get it straight if they try hard. Well, that's all about power and control. It's not about helping, not about giving your the shirt off your back. That's about oppression. That's about suppression. It's mean. That's cruel. And I felt terrible for years about myself. And, you know, so I can look at somebody who is homosexual trying to navigate the space of this church. I can identify a little bit on that level. You can go, Yeah, you're not bad because I wasn't either. I mean, like, everything that you do is no worse than things I was. You know, the difference is I was able to kind of hide it. You know, at no point am I going to have hands with that evil little ground to choke on. So in order to be happy, in order to be satisfied. So and I think that happens to a lot of females and I think that happens to a lot of us males. We bring on to ourselves this masquerade of harm, also prying. Good. So yeah, the first face I ever put on, it was my own. I didn't want to believe that I was that bad guy. I didn't want to believe that I was the perpetual sinner. I don't want to believe that I was awful and bloody and nasty and people shouldn't love me because of it, you know? And I would think that they wouldn't feel much different than that. I would think that if you were a black man before 1978, you wouldn't want to think that, right? I would think that if you're a female in the church, you wouldn't want that thought about. 

Brian [00:54:51] And that's a great point because I'm thinking of a third aspect of this, is hearing stories of other people like this and on podcasts and Mormon stories or wherever else. And thinking wasn't just me, right? There are a lot of people that have been dealing with this. And for the longest time I thought it was just it was only me and it was because I was broken. There was something wrong with me. I'm a pretender. I whatever label you've put on yourself, you realize, no, you're not the only one out there. And there's a certain power. One of the things you lose when you leave the church is the community, your neighbors. And people live right next door to you that you've known for 22 years. In my case, that hasn't said they haven't said one word to me since I stopped going to church on Sunday. I'm still the same person. They're still the same person. But there is a complete outcast kind of thing and not necessarily in a negative way, but it certainly isn't positive. Right? I don't feel shunned. But they used to come visit me every month. You have your home teachers and your visiting teachers and and granted, part of it. This is I'm the one that stepped away and maybe. They don't understand. And maybe they think you stepped away. You left. There's something here you don't like, so we're not going to bother you with it, if that's it a little bit. But now I do really feel like it's just me and you reach out to these other communities and you're like, Oh, it's not. There are a lot of people there. There are more people here than I would have ever imagined. I think these online communities are another reason why people are able to take the risk of leaving the safety they've known and the people they've loved for so long. And when things get so painful that they have to leave, they're like, can leave. Cause I think there is some more safety out there for me and I think I will find it and they'll find me. And that may not have been possible without the Internet, without some of these social forums, without some of the social media where they can reach out and he read other stories, it's like that person's going through exactly what I'm going through. 

Neil [00:56:36] Yeah. Thank God. I hope everybody goes through this. I hope if you have to be a part of that group, change of that group finally start doing things that are kinder, gentler, really do improve everybody around, right? They could do so many little things. Like I said this in those TikTok’s that I was making, one of the first TikTok’s we made was, Hey, Mormon Church, you are so powerful, you are so influential. The amount of good you could bring to this world beyond your own hope of imagination, you really couldn't even gather the scope of what doing. And all you got to do is love a loved your thought. I remember when you were telling me about the book you write about the guy that's all about love your neighbor, the bishop. It's just all about love your neighbor. Like let's just drop dog shit about, you know, what covers your shoulders or what you think you put in your skin. Like, let's drop all that. Let's just go straight to love neighbor. I would contest that if the Mormon Church, the LDS Church have mad about them, but I would contest that the LDS Church could do so much good. Just love your neighbor. If they'd just drop all the rules and the silliness of whatever it is they think Christ said than good. What He actually said it win. The world would win. Everything would win. And they have more power and influence to do that kind of good than any. And I'm disappointed that they haven't. 

Brian [00:57:48] They preach very strongly. This isn't a buffet religion. Don't get to pick and choose the doctrine you decide to believe in. You can't say love your neighbor and then decide, well, I'm not with you on the whole stance for the LGBTQ. I disagree with the church on that, but do love the love your neighbor thing. And I love this. But the church itself will say, nope, can't do that. 

Neil [00:58:07] It seems like they're the ones picking from the buffet to me. Interesting. I don't think that there were any other commandments than that. I don't believe that it's silly to say this out loud. I want to reject the notion that Christ said love God and love or think that love God is redundant, love your neighbor shows love for God. And I think he did need to say it. And I think that more religions have done more harm in the name of love God than any other faith. That part of love God. No, just love, neighbor. If you'll do that, you do love no other way to express it went. 

Brian [00:58:35] So why do organizations feel the need to say no? You need to love God and let me tell you. 

Neil [00:58:39] Means it's how they gain control. It's how they gain their power. No other reason, in my opinion. Slover Neighbor You can solve everything with it, and there's no point in having a call in a disciplinary meeting. I just love you. I just love. Yeah, I mean, most love. Sorry, you're going through a rough time right now. I don't know what that means. Yeah, I'm busy with my own shit too. 

Brian [00:58:57] We're here for you. If we can do anything, let us know. 

Neil [00:58:59] How can I love you more? There's no thing that you can't solve. Disappoints me. I'm. And I'm sad that all of those. There's all those other rules because they really are limiting and they're self-limiting and they're all they are. Can't wait to get done with that. But me either. It'll be a good book. Yeah. Thanks for. 

Brian [00:59:12] Your time. You have any other topics we will talk about today? We're going to have you back again. So, I mean, I. 

Neil [00:59:16] Wanted to talk about everything but that really I'm so scared. Like that was the scariest shit I've ever done because what since I advocated since I, since we shut that Ticktock Channel down last year. Like, I mean, I haven't said anything publicly. 

Brian [00:59:29] But you said you're thinking of doing it again. This is your lesson. 

Neil [00:59:31] It looks to me like I'm in the middle of it right now. Right. How would you do? Let me just ask you, like, what would you do? How would you advocate again? Would you I have this channel that has we've built it up to a fair 50 followers now, and it's a health channel. It's all about health. I think love belongs in there on some level. But I wouldn't dare talk about advocacy, loving your neighbor and all that stuff. How would you do it? Would you do it? 

Brian [00:59:53] So there's only one way you can not offend people two ways. One is to not have an opinion, or two is to not state it. Brilliant. 

Neil [01:00:00] You're right. 

Brian [01:00:01] When I mean, if you have an opinion and you state it, you're going to lose people. People are going to be upset. And it's the same with politics. It's the same with religion. It's the same with I don't care what the issue is, you're going to upset people. I also think if it's from your heart and who you are and who you really are and you're not being unnecessarily flippant or cruel or throwing rocks just to throw rocks. I think it's not an exact ratio. I think you will lose people, but I think other people will drive all the way from Oregon to shake your hand and say. 

Neil [01:00:32] Yeah, that was me. 

Brian [01:00:33] And I think there are people that pass by your gym a hundred times a year and see that flag and it means something to their core. And they've never left a message. They've never said anything. They may not even admit it to the people that are in their car. They may have not even admitted it to themselves. One of my recent interviews 12 years denying it to themselves. And just fighting it, fighting it and fighting it. I think one flag in all of South Davis County and it offends people and it gives others hope. And it says today was the day. And if I hadn't seen that flag. So yeah. But on the other hand, it's your livelihood, right? How much of that do you put at risk? How much you can't treat that lightly. You can't throw it to the wind. You can't. It's a tough thing. I mean, again, there's no handbook that tells you how to do this. There is what your gut says and there's what your gut says, how to do it. And I think you'll figure out a way that makes sense. 

Neil [01:01:25] Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the business of helping people become healthy. 

Brian [01:01:28] And like you said, that's one of what your eight items on that back wall. You got eight of them listed back there. 

Neil [01:01:33] Yeah, physicals. Just one. 

Brian [01:01:34] Of them. Physicals just one of them. Now, you do have a channel that's just for that. Is there another channel that you open for a different one? Is there another channel that you open for one and people can come in and do it? It's one thing to invite people over for a barbecue and only serve peanut butter sandwiches. And right now you've got a lot of followers that are there for the fitness. If you want to serve, if you want to serve something else, maybe it's a different channel. Maybe there's a way you can work it into the same thing and offer both. 

Neil [01:01:58] Yeah, I think I'm a hypocrite if I don't do it. I think it just I'm not selling fitness. I'm selling health. Fitness is the most tangible piece of your health. That's the only of the eight aspects touch. 

Brian [01:02:08] So maybe there's a nice transition you can move into that. And because it has been all about fitness, you mentioned help a little bit, but not much. I think there's a good period of time where you could do a transition into saying, let me talk about the other aspects and just kind of talk about them. And then eventually people realize this is a broader category and I really like it. I like where I've got where this is going. He's still talking about the physical aspect of it, but he's also talking about the emotional and physical and. 

Neil [01:02:32] Emotional, social. 

Brian [01:02:33] Spiritual, all of it. Yeah. And I think that's a kind of a slow transition, but I think a lot of people would be for that. 

Neil [01:02:40] Even if they're not, it's who I am. Do it. You're right. I was scared just about wiping out. I know that, you know, ten more people leaving my gym would have wiped us out. We need have bit done so. And we had a lot of people that were like one more word, Neil. I'm cool right now. Be cool. Not all the way cool, but I'll be cool right now. But I hear one more word out of you. So we have got a lot of those people that are sitting around go is weird. They still got their hands on their hips like say it, though. 

Brian [01:03:04] Yeah. On the other hand, you don't want to just fall right into them and say just because I mean, I, I've had some bad refereeing experiences and I've been on both sides of that. But I've had a referee saying right there, don't say it, don't say it. And they stand in your face and say, don't say it. Don't say it one more time. One more time, and you're out here and they're not leaving. They are forcing you to say it so they can throw you out. They're not trying to manage the game and keep you in it. And I think you need to kind of consider that I really good. I've had some really good referees that I've learned from this that are really good. Referee does everything they do they can do. Keep you in the game. Yeah. They're not sitting there waiting for you to make a mistake so they can throw you out. That's a really bad referee. 

Neil [01:03:40] I love that you're, of course, right about that. 

Brian [01:03:42] And I've had some really good referees that have said that have been in the corner. There's a scrum and there's a little bit of a cheap shot and a little bit of an elbow. And there might have been a call, maybe not. The referee didn't call it. And you can just see the kid on the ground getting up and he's ready just to haul off. And the referee stand right there, said, I'm right here. I'm watching. Don't do it. And if the kid does it, obviously the kid can do it and whatever. But if the kid looks at him, looks at the reference point and skates over to the bench and he's pissed and he'll calm down, he'll get out there and next shift, play the rest of the game. And there are other refs that are right there, like, oh, yeah, I'm watching you. You go ahead and swing it back. Oh, now I'm throwing out. Yeah, well, keep him in the game. 

Neil [01:04:11] Yeah, I love that. You're right. You're of course. Right. So find a way to say it in a way or do it advocate in a way is acceptable. 

Brian [01:04:19] And you'll find out. We're still going to have. 

Neil [01:04:20] To you're still going have to have your voice but and. 

Brian [01:04:21] You'll still see a lot of the game piss people and still people will still leave the game and you're not going to. 

Neil [01:04:25] So I love what you're doing to time again. 

Brian [01:04:28] Again, again. 

Neil [01:04:28] Yeah, I love it. I love what you're doing. I think you're cool. Congratulations on the show. 

MUSIC

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