Impact & Legacy w/ Melanie Ray

 It's really shaped my career to where it is today. Just being able to stand up, be outspoken, to ask for, demand the things that I think I deserve. 

Welcome to Tangible Remnants.  I'm Nakita Reed, and this is my show where I explore the interconnectedness  of architecture, preservation, sustainability. race and gender. I'm excited that you're here. So let's get into it. 

Welcome back.  I am fresh off a trip from LA where I got to participate in the National Trust for Historic Preservation's African American Cultural Heritage Action Fund jury. for the Preserving Black Modernism grant.  The grant is sponsored by the Getty, and it was my first time visiting the Getty complex.

It was stunning and awe inspiring. I highly recommend googling the Getty if you've never been before.  The Preserving Black Modernism grant from the African American Cultural Heritage Action Fund is one of the many grant programs offered through the National Trust for Historic Preservation. Be sure to check out the show notes or the podcast's Instagram page for more information. 

If you haven't followed the podcast on Instagram yet, be sure to check us out next time you're on the platform at tangible remnants.  This week's episode features a conversation with fellow Baltimore architect, Melanie Ray. She is one of the few architects I know whose father is also an architect. It was a fun conversation and I learned a lot about her journey into the field and how her involvement with NOMA has impacted her career. 

To give you a little bit more info about who she is, Melanie is a licensed architect and associate within the affordable housing studio at Hort Copeland Macht, HCM.  Since graduating from Penn State's architecture program in 2015, she's worked on various market rate and affordable mixed use housing projects, in addition to various community development projects in Baltimore City and beyond. 

She is the 424th living Black woman licensed in the United States to practice architecture and seeks to be an active mentor to promote the goal of doubling the number of licensed Black architects by 2030.  She currently serves as the president of Be More NOMA, which is the Baltimore chapter of the National Organization of Minority Architects. 

She's also the Northeast University liaison for the NOMA National Board, and she's on the board of directors for AIA Baltimore.  In addition to her work at HCM, Melanie is a regular volunteer for pro bono design projects through such organizations as Habitat for Humanity and the Neighborhood Design Center, and she recently received Volunteer of the Year Award in June of 2020 from the Neighborhood Design Center and currently serves on their board of directors. 

Melanie is a certified FITWELL ambassador and a lead green associate.  As you can hear, there's going to be a number of fun connections between architecture, sustainability, gender, race, and all of the things. And talking with Melanie was such a good time, so I'm very excited to share this episode with you. 

So without further ado, I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Melanie Ray. 

So I'm excited to have Melanie Ray on the show today. And so she is an amazing architect and person in Baltimore that I get to connect with often. Um, and so Melanie, I would love to, for you to share more about what got you into architecture and what that journey's been so far. Absolutely. Uh, so thank you for having me.

Uh, I think this is my first official pod, no, second podcast recording. So I'll just add that to the library. There you go. Well, I'll say I was exposed to architecture really early on, but I didn't know I wanted to be an architect until right before I went to college. So my father is actually an architect.

And our family has a lineage of just people working with their hands. My grandfather was a painter and so we've always been  engaged in the built environment in one way or another.  And so growing up, my dad, old school, he grew up in the, the era of hand drafting and Uh, I, I remember him learning AutoCAD when it first came out  as well.

But growing up, he had a studio in our basement. Uh, he had a drafting desk, he had a full office downstairs. And he was someone who, you know, loved and still loves to work in architecture. He was always drawing, he was always working. Um, and he would bring a lot of his work home. Whether he was At the time working at a firm or in the period when he also had his own practice as well So he just had boxes and boxes of drawings Uh, you know his computers when that era got started Uh, and so I would just see him working all the time And I didn't really know what he did at the time I just knew he came home and he drew buildings and he worked on churches and we saw some Storefronts and businesses that he'd worked on.

And we would often go to his office that was in downtown, uh, Newark, New Jersey at the time that's where we grew up  and where we're from. And so I just know he was in business for himself and he worked on buildings. It wasn't until I got to high school and I started doing career exploration, that period when, you know, your parents.

Send you off to high school or college exploration summer programs and you're doing all these different activities and I at the time thought I wanted to be an engineer my freshman and sophomore year and so I was  Stacking of all the AP classes, you know, AP Calc, AP Physics. Um, I did some IT classes at University of Maryland.

I did all of these engineering programs. One that stands out in particular, the summer program I did at Temple. And it was a great program. Learned a lot, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, got exposed to a lot of different disciplines, but then I realized I don't want to be an engineer  and I wanted to still incorporate those aspects of the right side of my brain, uh, but I still wanted to be creative and also look at ways to be a problem solver.

So I kind of took a step back and looked at my dad again. I was like, Oh, what's this architecture thing? This let's revisit this. Uh, and so it was actually the. My senior year of high school when I was applying to schools that I selected architecture as my major and it wasn't until I got into school That I told my dad.

Oh, by the way, i'm majoring in architecture How did he respond when he found out so I went into college in 2010, which was not a great time for architects  Uh, and so his first reaction was concerned  Yeah, that's fair. Uh, it was a, it was a rough, it was, you know, two years after the recession. And so my father kind of also lived through multiple recessions that have hit the industry pretty hard.

You know, I, I think fairly his initial response was, I don't know if what this field is going to look like in five years when you graduate. But as I moved through the curriculum, and he just, you know, saw me picking up a lot of the same skills that he had learned during his time, you know, so many years ago at Howard, when he was studying architecture, uh, you know, coming back full circle and graduating just showed that, you know, the industry had picked up by the time I finished and You know, since then, I haven't really looked back, so I'm glad that at the time my dad didn't talk me out of architecture, um, and I, I stuck with it, but glad, uh, you know, within five years, the, the industry kind of turned around after that.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, um, going in,  granted, 2010 was a good time to probably be in school, you know, considering the, the economy situation. So then once you graduated and actually remind me, where did you go? Uh, I went to Penn state Okay, and then did it have a four year or a five year program? Uh, so five year program Uh, one of the interesting things about having a dad having an architect as a father Uh, is he only wanted me to look at five year programs?

it was very much from like that that mentality of like you're gonna go to college you're gonna get and you're gonna get licensed is like the That's the plan. Gotcha. And so, living in Maryland, that automatically put me looking at out of state programs.  That's fair. So, Penn State was like just far enough that my mom couldn't visit every weekend, but it was close enough that I could make it home if I needed to. 

I know exactly what you mean about that distance.  Close enough, but far enough at the same time. Yeah, exactly. Since we're still on the journey, then talk a little bit about your licensure journey. Oh, my. So, again, because I have a unique experience of, like, being exposed to architecture very early on, I think that was truly a blessing.

In a lot of cases, um, architects of color, in particular Black architects, like, really don't meet their first architect. Until they're in college, maybe even after they graduate, depending on where they go to school. So for me, you know, I met my first architect when I was born. I met his co workers. I actually found out recently that my dad worked at the firm of one of the founding members of NOMA.

I had no idea. Oh my gosh. What? Wow. We can revisit that. Let's revisit that story. Yeah, we'll put a pin in that. Okay.  So because I was introduced to the field and the profession really early I knew What I needed to get done in order to get licensed and that was like one of the first things that was on my mind And you know, I I also have to admit that being a woman as well that That clock was kind of in my mind and like I knew I wanted to get licensed quickly Just to be able to open up my life later on for whatever may happen And so just just knowing that You know, life family changes could definitely be a hindrance on licensure in particular for women.

So  I worked for about a year at my firm here in Baltimore and then I buckled down and started studying. What really helped was I was I kind of had a partner in crime who's a few years older than me  because she was on that same path of getting licensed as quickly as possible. We kind of pushed each other so we would meet Every Saturday at a cafe in Federal Hill, and we would meet at like 10 a.

m. and wouldn't leave until they closed until four or five o'clock at night.  All day Saturday. And then every, almost every night after work for at least two hours, just studying. Like hardcore. Seriously hardcore. That's awful. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, I was determined to get licensed within a year and I largely achieved that.

I had one fail. And I had that fail, I received the news, like literally got the score report when I arrived for the NOMA conference in 2017.  Like, I landed, I checked into the hotel, and then I'm like, boom, you failed, like, your first exam. Oh, dang.  And I was like, oh, wow, this is a great way to start the conference, um, and I go every year.

But when I went downstairs, I just started telling people, like, you know, how are you doing? Ah, you know, I just failed my first exam, it's okay. And I was so inspired by other people's stories, like, oh, you know, I failed such and such exams, and now I have my own firm, or. You know, don't be discouraged. It's one fail.

It's not going to hold you back. So I think that was probably the best time to receive that news. And then three months later, I knocked out my last two exams and got licensed within that first year of, within a year of becoming eligible to test. So that's amazing. Like, I am so impressed with that commitment and that dedication to get it done that quickly.

Because usually, you know, it takes a couple of years. I definitely agree with the whole, it's one failure, I failed, I think, three of the exams, just have to retake them. Just that reminder though that, you know, failure is an event, not a sentence, not like who you are, but it, it can get in there where it's like, oh man, I thought I was gonna ace all of them all at once in the first time, but yeah.

Very rarely. Exactly. Yeah. I was really like, you know, growing up, I was definitely that like straight A. Like if I got a B, it was like, ah, so getting like a fail was hard. Yeah. I hear that. I totally hear that.  And it's not like it's, um.  I don't know if it's changed now, but I know when I was going through it, it was very much like, uh, here, like, you either passed or you failed it, and if you failed it, it wasn't like, they're like, here's all the ones you got wrong, it was just kind of like, good luck, start studying again, like, there wasn't as much guidance, like, hey, tighten up this area or whatever. 

Yeah, I don't know if they've changed that or not. You get a little bit, but it's like, Ah, you, you scored like 30 percent in this area. Study more here. That's it. Got you. Alright, well that's at least a little bit better than just a nope. Try again.  So, the firm that you're at in Baltimore, you said you'd worked there for a year.

Um, so then, what brought you to Baltimore? from Penn State after you graduated? Yes. Or did you go straight after you graduated? I did come straight here. So, coming from, uh, P. G. County is where I was raised after, um, my mom and sister and I moved down here from Jersey. I always imagined I would end up in D.

C. Uh, that's just, that's where my friends and I went out. That's where we would go on the weekends. Like, D. C. was just the, the go to place. Um, I was very much one of those people who regarded Baltimore as like, it's the Inner Harbor, the National Aquarium, and like, that's it. Maybe you go to an Orioles game, that's it.

And so, when my firm, uh, Horde Copeland Mox, was, uh, they came up to a career fair. My graduating year at Penn State and I saw they had a D. C. Office, but they also had a Baltimore office. I said, Hey, I'm, I'm open for either. I'm halfway between both. I'd love to be considered for either position. So when the Baltimore office, uh, offered me the spot, um, I was interested.

I was, I was curious just to see. where Baltimore would take me. It wasn't really on my radar, but I knew  from a career development standpoint that there was a lot more room for growth, I would say in Baltimore because, you know, it's Baltimore, right? Like the architecture community here, you, you can really make a statement.

You can really make a name for yourself, um, in the city. But also just in terms of economic opportunity, Baltimore is just a  much more, I'd say welcoming city in terms of like really getting in, you know, owning property or starting a business, or maybe you want to make partnerships with community organizations.

Like it's so grassroots. Um, and so it really is a much more hands on city, um, which, what really attracted me to Baltimore. So I've. I've been here, uh, seven years now, uh, going on eight. And every time I'm convincing people like, come on, move up to Baltimore.  Uh, it's a great city. There's so many opportunities here.

And it's really just going to open up even more, um, as we, as we go on.  Yeah, I agree. It's, there's definitely so much potential in Baltimore. There's already so many great things happening and the potential for more, particularly as  things are being developed and redeveloped. And people in leadership are making different and somewhat better decisions.

I think there's definitely lots of opportunities there. I mean, every, every week I feel like there's a new, like, either a grant or new business opening. Um, I remember when they announced, um, the funding for the highway to nowhere, like that's going to be awesome. So like finally be able to see and do something with that. 

Right, right. So it's not just. there that's not serving the community that's around it. Yeah. And I am super excited about that one.  And so then, um, I know one of the ways that we've connected is through NOMA, and I know you've been very involved with it both and the, uh, in Baltimore NOMA or BMORE NOMA as well as NOMA National.

Um, so let's circle back to that story about you finding out about your dad worked at one of the NOMURC founders firms. What? Yes! So, NOMURC's been a huge part of my life since college. I think I joined... My sophomore year when I was at Penn State, and I've been to every conference ever since. I'm like, one, one way or another, I'm going to be at the conference. 

Fair. Okay. But it's really shaped my career to where it is today. Um, just being able to stand up, you know, be outspoken to ask for, demand the things that I think I deserve, but also to advocate for others when they can't speak up for themselves. So it's, it's really been a part of my personal career development and journey.

I've made so many friends and really family members at this point within the organization. So my role, I first joined the national board, uh, as a student representative and I applied for the position at the behest of all my classmates. They were like, Mel, you should try this position. I'm like, there's no way I'm going to get it.

Like they don't know who, they don't know Penn state. Like they don't know who we are. Not at all. And at the conference, the banquet is when they announced like the new board and that's when they announced like, Oh, Melanie Ray is going to be the student rep. I had no idea what I had just gotten myself into.

Um, I went on stage  and I thought I had to give like an acceptance speech.  Which to this day i'm probably like probably super embarrassing. I don't I never want to go back and  But ever since um, i've served in some capacity on the national or the local board I served as the student rep for two years came off.

I came back as the northeast university liaison Um when that position opened up and I knew I wanted to continue working with students and working serving in a capacity So that other students could benefit from the way that I benefited from Noma during my time at Penn State and then coming here to Baltimore.

You know, I looked around and I saw that there were so many NOMA members in the city, but we didn't have a chapter. Those members who were in the city would drive down to D. C. for the D. C. NOMA events if there were any. And I'm like, there's no way that we can live in a majority minority city and not have a NOMA chapter.

Like, there's gotta be someone who's interested.  We're gonna take a quick break from the show and we'll be right back.  Are you a college student who'd like to buy me coffee to pick my brain?  Why don't I like coffee? So how about a tall caramel apple spice instead?  And how about we make it virtual?  One of the reasons I started this podcast was to help design students, particularly women and people of color to feel less alone in their studies and to see that there are people who look like them who have always been impacting the built environment.

Since I've started the podcast, a number of students have reached out via social media and we've set up times to chat about whatever was on their mind at the time. And as much as I have loved connecting with the various students that I've met so far, there's just not enough hours in the day to connect with everyone. 

So I figured I'd experiment with a different format and see how it goes.  Periodically, I'll offer an AMA chat session and make space for 10 to 15 students to join me for an hour.  AMA stands for Ask Me Anything, for those of you who are wondering.  If you're a student interested in meeting a few other students from around the country and interested in asking me questions about the profession, what to look for in your grad school, starting a business, how to deal with imposter syndrome, or just life in general, head over to my website, Nikita read.

com forward slash AMA to learn more. I look forward to chatting with you  and now let's get back to the show. 

So, uh, group of us, uh, we met at, we love the story. Um, Gathered at the kitchen table in Nicholas Hill's house,  which if you're in NOMA, everyone probably knows who Nick is,  um, and we talked about creating a chapter here. Um, and so since 2017, we've been going strong. We grew from five members and we now have, uh, close to 50 and I'm now serving as the president, uh, of the chapter.

Oh, I love that. I didn't realize that it started that recently. Oh, yeah. But yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, we've always had it. I mean, Leon Bridges has been here for years, but Yeah. He's never had a chapter. So going back to discovering my deaf work at the firm, two, a couple years ago, um, I was able to participate in the, uh, NOMA board retreat, the, the advance, the NOMA advance that took place in the Bahamas, which is where, um, the first meeting. 

the first meetings of NOMA took place, uh, with the founding members and their wives.  It was great to like go back and like basically discuss the organization and the future of the organization from 50 years, you know, across those 50 years and kind of building off of that in the same place that the idea of NOMA kind of was, was formed. 

Um, and so one of the guests who was there, uh, was bill brown jr.  Who is the son of William Brown, one of the founders. And I met him, I saw he had, he had some,  I overheard him talking about his time at Howard and I was like, Oh, he went to Howard. And he's like, Oh yeah, I studied architecture at Howard during a specific period of time, I won't mention the year, but during a time I was like, Oh, my dad graduated from Howard, I think around that same time, he's like, Oh, who's your dad?

And I was like, Oh, my dad's Ken Ray. So come to find out, uh, Bill Brown Jr. was a freshman when my dad was a fifth year senior,  uh, so they were on campus together and then my dad coming back to Jersey looking for a job, applied for one of the few black owned firms in the state of New Jersey, which happened to William Brown.

And I laugh at the story because my, my dad's never been a big like organization person. Like he's very much like on his own. Uh, he loves, you know, he works for himself often. I'm like, wait, you worked.  For the guy who,  but see very much is like, yeah, it's like, Oh, it's just like organization. I don't know what's going on.

Like, meanwhile, it's like such a big part of my life now. So it's like, it's great that it all comes back full circle.  So bill Brown jr, you know, he'll, he actually goes to the church with one of my, uh, family relatives, like where we go back to Jersey. We should do that thing.  So like text me updates, like, Oh, we just saw your cousin in church. 

That's amazing. That's amazing. I really love how small the world is. Yeah.  That's ridiculous. And one of the, like, and their pets are impossible.  Particularly because you are so involved in NOMA and like, you have, oh, that's, I love that story. Great.  So then I love that you've also spent a lot of your career advocating for students and working with students and kind of helping them find their footing in the profession as well.

What are some of the, um, some of the recurring themes that you're seeing in working with students? Or, and or do you have any tips for any students who are looking to get into the profession? Oh, yes, absolutely. Um, so recently I had the, this is a very recent, uh, theme that I've noticed and it very much so stems out of the,  this, the change that happened in society in 2020.

You know, that the triple pandemic that we were dealing with then and still today. I recently had the opportunity to travel to Boston to visit. The, we have a, about six NOMAS chapters just in the Boston area. And so I really wanted to get up there and meet with the students in person and just commend them for the hard work that they've been doing.

They had hosted a graduate student panel. It was Wentworth Institute of Technology, uh, Boston Architectural College, Harvard GSD, uh, Wellesley was there. I want to make sure I get everybody.  I know I'm forgetting.  Um, but all, all of the Boston area schools, um, no most chapters had attended.  Oh, M. I. T. Wow. We were on M.

I. T. S. Campus. There you go. And so I remember speaking with the chapter president or chapter leaders from Wentworth. And, you know, he had talked about the challenge that they're experiencing on campus is as representatives of no mass, but also as being  You know, minorities on their campuses in the same way that in professional settings, oftentimes minority professionals are kind of deemed as like the E.

D. I. Task force or the they're pulled into these different initiatives. Our students are doing the same. And so my focus this year after hearing that is to make sure that our students are well equipped, um, to have those conversations with School leadership that they feel empowered to have those conversations, but also that they're protecting themselves as well.

Cause we know that a lot of times those conversations can get very exhausting. You're pulled into different directions. Um, and as much as you want to be a part of it, you also have to protect, you know, your own wellbeing as well. And so our students, I'm so impressed by everything that they're able to accomplish, everything that they're, Getting into just at the really at the precipice of their careers.

And so for me at the time, NOMA was something that really springboarded my career in terms of leadership, in terms of managing and running programs and initiatives, I'm hoping that in my position, I can connect students. With the resources that they need as well and, you know, get to know the great members and really family that you get within NOMA.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, because that is, it can be very difficult, particularly when school leadership and administration is looking to students of color to  have the answers to all of these things that have been systemically in place for decades. And it's like these, you know, people of color, particularly at students, they're.

They're learning it, they're, they're trying to figure it out as well. So I'm glad that you're there to remind the students that they don't have to have all the answers. That, yeah, this is not a problem that they have to solve on their own. If they don't, then they're a disappointment or something like that.

Because that gets to be a lot. Yes, and like, they're so interested in engaging in those conversations too. Like, social justice is a huge aspect of design education today. More so than it was when I was in school. And yeah, and so all of our students are engaging that. A lot of them have minors in design justice or social justice.

And so as NOMA is leaning more into that direction, like we're, we're kind of just creating, I'm hoping that we're creating this pathway that students feel that they can continue that interest within the organization as well. Yeah, that's fantastic. I also did not realize that they have minors in design justice.

Oh yeah.  I saw someone's resume the other day, like, what?  That's awesome. I did not realize that was a thing yet. Great. This should be good.  Wow. All right. That's amazing. So then I guess as we are wrapping up, I can't believe time's already flying. I'm trying to think through, so why don't we  circle back a little bit to Baltimore.

So with your presidency for Be More NOMA. Um, are there any things that you are looking forward to accomplishing this year or anything you want to shout out? So, coming into this position, uh, I knew it was coming when I took on the role of treasurer, when I took on the role of vice president. But now that it's here, it's like, okay.

What can we do in two years to best serve our members, our city, our community. And so this year, one of our biggest goals is to really bolster our advocacy  efforts.  We're doing this by continuing the work of our immediate past president calvin mccargo jr Who founded the black african american architects roundtable that's doing a lot of great work with the City of baltimore and representatives from the mayor's office to make sure that our black firm owners Within baltimore are getting access to projects and resources that they need to be successful um, but also wanting to Really empower our members to engage with communities. 

Um, whether it's in their personal work or if it's within the work that the organization, different projects that we as a chapter can do, I think it's something that we've always had as a goal and COVID kind of pivoted that for us really going virtual. And so now that we're really getting back in person and that we're able to, uh, really get more hands on with our communities, um, we're hoping to pick that up this year.

Yeah. And, and also just from a membership standpoint, um, making sure that our members know the value of NOMA, um, both on a personal level, but also, you know, engaging across different chapters, really building that network. I think I've been very lucky to get to know NOMA on a national level and meeting members from across the country that no matter what city I'm going to, I'll know a NOMA member there.

If there's a firm that I'm working with, I know a NOMA member there, and so our members within Baltimore, you know, being very familiar with the Baltimore community, that there's ways to really get connected outside of the chapter that we can learn from other chapters and members as well. Yeah. That makes sense.

And I will say that there is  the NOMA National Conference.  It's such a special. It's a conference that holds a very special place in my heart because it is such a, feels like so much of a family. So it's like going to the conference and connecting with everyone there. It just makes a difference that you connect with people on a level that you don't necessarily always get to at the chapter level.

And so it's like being able to have the conference in addition to the chapters thing is super important. So I'm really glad that you're involved in both.  It's funny, I'll be in one meeting and I'll like put on my local NOMA hat and then I'll switch to my national NOMA hat. So I just kind of  shift gears.

Right. Yeah, because they're definitely different scales, but still equally important in what they're doing. Yeah, absolutely.  That's awesome. That's awesome. So why don't we wrap up with favorite spot in Baltimore? So as we're thinking of ways to encourage people to come visit the beautiful city of Baltimore, any places that you would recommend they, uh, visit or stop at?

There's so many places. So again, as someone who only knew the Inner Harbor and had no idea about these other neighborhoods,  Used to live, uh, downtown in the Mount Vernon area. And, uh, you know, I loved walking within Mount Vernon just because there's so much  history, culture, but also shops, uh, new businesses, new opportunities.

There's pop ups happening all over the Mount Vernon area. And so I think there's a lot, you know, of just interesting things that are happening.  Uh, in that community, but then also looking at some of our, you know, not so. Thinking about communities that you wouldn't necessarily think of as your go to. And so, really looking at the communities outside of the YL that you have, um, within the city.

And so I've had the opportunity to work in some really awesome, awesome areas. So, Johnson Square, um, is just right off of, like, right across 83, uh, from Mount Vernon. Totally different, totally different demographic, totally different vibe. But the community itself is just so engaging. And there's a lot of great things that are, um, up and coming.

I love going out there, uh, just north of Johnson Square to Openworks, checking out the makerspace there, and just the, the architecture that is available. And so Johnson Square is just one community out of many that  the, the people are really what make, what make the community and the visit really special.

Yeah, I'm, I'm excited to show more people, uh, the different sides of Baltimore because every, every neighborhood is unique. Uh, like Hamden, right? It has a different vibe from Canton, which has a different vibe from Collins market.  You know, different vibe from Washington Square. Washington Square is also a great neighborhood.

I love walking through Washington Square.  Yeah, that's, yeah, that's amazing. Well, awesome. And I guess I also should probably plug the fact that, um, Quinn Evans was the firm that did Openworks. So Openworks, I definitely second that one. Oh, yeah. Rather, it was, uh, I guess it was, um, Legacy Quinn Evans, so Chobit Holbach that did Openworks.

Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.  It's a fun maker space. I remember Chobin Holbeck. Um,  yeah, it's, it's interesting cause like part of that's Baltimore. It's like, sometimes we have to remind people that, oh no, it's Chobin Holbeck is now Quinn Evans. Cause sometimes it's like, we don't know who that is. It's like, no, no, you do.

I only know the small firms. Like,  right. Exactly. Come on. Um, that's, that's also very interesting thing is like, like now Baltimore has large firms, you know, you're, you're, you're at Quinn Evans. I'm at Court Copeland Mox. Yeah. Neurosancrosis right across the harbor. Like we've got some really big firms in the city, um, that are making, doing groundbreaking work across the country, um, as well.

So it's great to see. Yeah.  It's exciting to be in Baltimore at this moment. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. 

Thank you so much for listening. Links to amazing resources can be found in the episode show notes.  Special thank you to Sarah Gilbert for letting me use snippets from her song, Fireflies. If you haven't already, Be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts  and now that tangible remnant is part of the Gable Media Network.

You can listen and subscribe to all the network partner content at gablemedia.  com.  That's G A B L media. com.  Until next time. Remember that historic preservation is a present conversation with our past about our future. We don't inherit the earth from our parents, but we borrow it from our children. So let's make sure we're telling an inclusive history.

Saw  the first firefighter some and  right them.  I thought of you.  Oh, I could see us catching them  and setting them free.  Honey, that's what you do. 

That's what you do to me.