Victoria Theater with Joseph Kandoth

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Harlem was a wonderful place in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, and sixties. It, it went down a little, but now. We are back. You know, it's back to its glory days. 

Welcome to Tangible Remnants.  I'm Nakita Reed, and this is my show where I explore the interconnectedness of architecture, preservation, sustainability, race, and gender. I'm excited that you're here. So let's get into it.  Welcome back.  This week's episode is all about the Victoria Theater in New York. I got to chat about the redevelopment project with Joseph Kandoth, a senior project manager in construction administration at Aufgang Architects. 

This theater is located on the same block as the Apollo Theater. Yes, that Apollo theater and has an interesting history.  Here's the description of the building from the Victoria Theater redevelopment projects final environmental impact statement that was prepared in 2013.  The Victoria Theater comprises two neoclassical style buildings constructed in 1917 and designed by noted theater architect Thomas W.

Lamb.  The South building fronts onto West 125th street and contains the original entrance and lobby to the theater. The North building is along 126th Street and contains the former auditorium and other accessory public spaces.  The Victoria Theater is historically and architecturally significant under National Register Criteria A and C as one of Harlem's surviving vaudeville and motion picture theater buildings. 

And so real quick, criterion A on the National Register is defined as properties that possess integrity and are associated with events that have made significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history.  Whereas criterion C has a little bit of a broader definition and is defined as properties that possess integrity and embody distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction. 

Back to the description of the building.  The Victoria Theatre is one of the few theatres of Lamb's early career remaining in New York City.  Originally opened as Lowe's Victoria, the theatre served as a vaudeville and movie house with over 2, 000 seats.  For roughly half a century, it was one of the most celebrated theatres in the area. 

The Victoria Theater was one of four contiguous vaudeville houses on West 125th Street, along with the Apollo Theater, the Harlem Opera House, and the Alhambra Theater. Together, the four theaters were known as Harlem's Opera Row. Along with its neighboring theaters, the Victoria contributed to the reputation of 125th Street and Harlem as a world class entertainment district. 

The Victoria Theater continued in use as a film theater until 1977, when Lowe's determined it was no longer economically viable to operate the theater and put the building up for sale.  The Harlem Urban Development Corporation, HUDC, which was the predecessor to HCDC,  purchased the theater in the 1980s, and its lessee converted the building into five film theaters.

The theater was once again renovated in the 1990s for use as a live theater, but it had been vacant since 1997 by the time this current redevelopment project started.  So that's the description of the building from the final environmental impact statement, and there's a link to the full 600 plus page document in the show notes if you're interested. 

Now, if you're curious what the building has looked like throughout history, there are a number of photos of the Victoria Theater, thanks to Joseph and his team sending them over to us. So be sure to check out our Instagram page at tangible remnants to see more of what the building has looked like at various points in its life.

And if you want to dig in more to the project and the process,  then we definitely left breadcrumbs for you in the show notes. So be sure to check those out too.  So before talking to Joseph, I didn't know anything about this project. I actually didn't even realize the Victoria theater existed. And so it was really fun to talk with him since he was very familiar with the project and throughout the beginning of the interview, you'll hear me ask many probing questions before we get super deep into the conversation, just so I could try to get a handle on the project itself  and hearing about the ways that the building had to be underpinned and secured was super fascinating since I know my mom and.

Mother in law might be listening to this and they're not architects. Underpinning is when you reinforce an existing building foundation. And it's typically required when the original foundation isn't strong enough to support a new intervention in the building. During the interview, I'm super glad that Joseph mentioned the various other team members involved in this project.

It takes more than just the architect to make building and renovations happen. So shout out to all the sub-consultants and specialists to help make these projects move forward so easily.  And finally, before we get into it, let me give you just a little bit more information about Joseph. So you have more context to who he is. 

He has decades of experience working on a variety of projects in the tri-state area and beyond. His diverse work includes luxury homes and apartments, churches and synagogues, high-end shopping centers, fast food restaurant chains, auto dealerships, schools, and healthcare facilities. His international work also includes architectural consultancy for many luxury homes in Kerala, India. 

In his position at Aufgang Architects, he's able to incorporate his worldly experience into his everyday design work and brings to the table a wealth of knowledge about designs from all over the world.  His vast experience, both personal and professional, comes with a considerable cultural understanding, which is an important factor in any design. 

So all that said, the next time you're in New York, be sure to visit the Victoria Theater and Hotel at 125th street in Harlem. And so without further ado, please enjoy this conversation between me and Joseph Kandoth.  I am really excited, Joseph, that you're on the show. So thank you for joining today. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself for our listeners and let them know where you are geographically.

So we are in Suffolk, New York right now. That's our office. I work for a firm called  Off Grid Architects, and we are one of the bigger architectural firms in New York City.  Most of our work is done in New York, and I was a project manager. For Victoria  Tower. Yeah. And I was really excited when we did some of the, the pre call about this building.

Because I know of the Apollo Theater, as most people do around the world. But the more that you were telling me about the Victoria, that's super close to the Apollo. I was very excited to learn more. So why don't we jump right in and you can tell me a little bit about how this project came to be.  So this gentleman called Steve Williams, he was instrumental in getting this project going around  2004.

He requested a proposal from Harlem Development Corporation and also Empire State Development Corporation  to redevelop this area.  And he was a big developer in Harlem, along with Craig Lewis Livingston, and they got together and they won the proposal.  And, you know, it was, uh, that was probably around 2008 and around 2011 is  this project came to our office.

So it's been around for a little while and because of some of the financial issues.  In New York City and, you know, we really got going around 2050 when Danford, Steve Williams and Exact Capitals, uh, Craig Livingston got together with a,  the Lamb Group, which are major hoteliers in this, uh, in New York City.

So they had developed many, uh, Marriotts in, in New York City, and they brought this hotel here around, uh. In 2017, that's when we started.  Yeah, that's when the Marriott group got together, when we started building, it started in 2017  and it's just finished  a couple of months ago and we had a grand opening last month.

Gotcha. And so then say a little bit more about the scale of the project, like how many hotel rooms or how many square feet or that sort of thing?  Yeah. So it's 420, 000 square foot. It's actually a hotel. Apartments, a historic theater,  a renovation, and two theaters. Oh, wow. So it's, yeah, it's 420, 000 square foot.

It's 191 apartments and 220 hotel rooms.  Oh my goodness. And then what types of theaters? Are they movie theaters or like performance theaters, that sort of thing? So the theater is going to be run by The Apollo theater. So the Apollo is going to run the two theaters that are in there. And on the third and fourth floor, they will move in.

They're going to have their offices in our building and eventually they'll renovate. The offices or make it part of the theater. That makes sense. Cause I know you'd mentioned that the Victoria was close to the Apollo. Oh, absolutely. It's literally maybe a hundred foot away. Oh my goodness. Okay. So that makes sense for them to be connected.

Okay. Yeah, actually the Victoria theater  was probably closed down. I would say the mid-nineties was in bad shape. It was, you know,  water was leaking. But it was one of the most beautiful theaters in that area. It started in 1917  by a very famous architect who did theaters. His name was Thomas Lamb. And during that period, there was the burlesque, song, and dance.

There were about five, I think, five theaters there. And eventually, each of them went into disrepair. And only Apollo survived.  And then  Probably in the 90s when the Empire State Development gave this development to, uh, Steve Williams to develop one of the criteria is what you have to renovate everything to its glory, at least the lobby and, and that also the lobby also became the Lobby for the hotel.

You walk into this really historic, renovated theater. You can go into the newer theaters, and then to the fifth floor will be the main lobby for the hotels. That's fascinating. And so then I'm glad that the developers had that vision to be able to say, no, the building needs to be restored instead of get it and replaced.

Are there any historic protections on the building? So is it on the national register or anything like that? Yes. I mean, so, so the. The theater itself, the entrance, and the lobby had to be restored. Most of the, the rest of it we couldn't restore, it was in disrepair. So, at least, if you come over there, you'll see a beautiful, restored hotel.

And there was a lot of hard work that went into it. A company called BCA  did all the restoration, and it was painstaking. Oh, that's fantastic. And, uh, it became a wonderful hotel. Yeah. Yeah, BCA's a great firm. And so then who else made up the team? I know a lot of people think that architects are the ones that do all the work, but there's so many other sub-consultants and engineers that are part of it.

Who else is on the team? Yeah,  sure. Our team consists of, of course, Ariel Aufgag, he's the principal and Doris Maser. who's the associate principal and, Joe Bottino. We also had a JC interior design who was, uh, Alicia Can, Alicia Cannon. We had a structural engineer, Walter Bow and Mark Brown, and, Mike Reky.

The MEP engineers were energy engineering and the theater architects for Costco, Greenwood, uh, Michael Costco and Alina Fan. Well, the, uh, involved with this and also  the GC was Flintlock, which is a big company. They do a lot of work around hotels. Yeah, that's awesome. It's great to those shout out the main team that's that was involved.

And so then back to the building protections itself. So remind me, was it listed on the National Register and did it go after any historic tax credits or anything? That I'm not sure, but it was, you know, when a historic theater goes.  The city want to restore all their heritage.  So, you know, there were five theaters close by.

The Hammerstein Brawl room. Most of them just went away. There was a cotton club. There was Alhambra and, of course, the Victoria and the Apollo Theater.  So most of them are gone. I think the, the Cotton Club is still there all the way on 23rd Street. But,  you know, this, the facade was, believe it or not, a really beautiful facade.

If you look at The Apollo Theater and then us,  it's a very grand, you know, and  they built these grand monuments in the, you know, 20s and 30s.  And, you know, if you lose some of this character, if you destroy it, you'll never get that back. So the city was, ESD, they were. Very instrumental in saying, no, this has to be restored and to the painstaking glory.

I mean, it was, it was, it was really,  yeah, I believe it. I'm so grateful for that vision because it makes a difference where, yeah, what goes into it. Cause a lot of the times kind of that decision upfront, if the building's going to be reused or not is really good. drive a lot of the design. Of course, we can, we can destroy our history.

We, you know, this, uh, this is one of the oldest cities, believe it or not, even though we are a new city, we have a lot of beautiful buildings.  Yeah, absolutely. And so I know that New York also is one of the more progressive states in terms of blending sustainability into their historic buildings. Can you talk a little bit about some of the sustainable features that, or kind of some of the ways that you had to work with the building to make that happen?

I mean, obviously we have affordable homes, we are, we always follow the latest standards of New York City, and New York is very stringent on HVAC,  many, many other things, and also, you know, the glazing, the exterior facade. So, we always follow everything that New York City told us to do.  What were some of the surprises that you had when working on the project?

So any sort of like things as you're kind of going through on the seeing the existing conditions or trying to work through some of the various challenges and opportunities that came up on the project. So the theory itself, we didn't touch it, the foundation of it,  everything around it. It's a new building. 

So in that sense, you know, we really didn't have to worry. Of course, you have to save, save the footprint of the Victoria Theatre. And also we had to also underpin.  Two sides to have the new building and, of course, our neighbor from the back is the Apollo theater,  so it was, you know, of course, you know, and there were also a client who was going to come in.

So, of course, we have to be very careful on that. And, you know, today the technology is wonderful that you can underpin many things and not worry about in New York, just that, you know, to every of their buildings. And, you know, when you see a building go down, you know, there's always buildings all around them, right?

So that was not an issue. Gotcha. It's just, you know, the, the only issue we had was COVID  and, uh, it, it really took about three years away from us.  Once COVID hit, that was the only issue for the building. You know, when, when people go away, you know, when they had only 30 people working on it, we should have about 300 people, you know, and then it took a year for everyone to come back.

So,  so that took away some of our, uh,  our spirits, you could say. Yeah, understandable. Yeah, it is still kind of weird that, you know, I think as a society, as we're getting back into this thing of things, and be like, yeah, COVID was a thing that Really happened to all of us for those years. It's, it's, it's amazing how we quickly, quickly forgot about it.

Now we just, I remember when I first went back and there was so many people, literally  200 people have left, uh, from the job site. And when we came back, they all had masks and gloves and, you know. And we quickly forgot about that. And I think it's, you know, we're going to forget about it five years from now.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's super interesting. And so then for the theater project, was there also another architect that you were working with on the project? So it's Costco Greenwood. Um, and they, they are specialized in doing theaters. So Ofgang is the architect of record for the hotel and the entire building. 

But the theater design were done by them because they specialize in it, you know, mostly this kind of field, you know, special soundproofing, you know, seating and acoustic.  Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think a lot of times it's important. I'm just more so for the listeners. It's important to know that architects specialize in certain things because there are so many different types of building types and types of uses that require different specialties.

Yeah. Even restoration. Yeah. Even restoration. It's, it's his own little field. Yeah. So it's great to bring in someone who has a A little bit more specialized experience who can sometimes see around some of the corners because I know in a lot of our theater projects as well, we'll bring on a theater consultants or lighting designers and different people who are thinking about some of the things that, you know, as someone who doesn't work in that space every day, we're not necessarily thinking about,  especially when you have a, especially when you have Apollo as your client,  I can only imagine all of the requirements. 

No, you know, it's, it's, it's funny during, I've been working there for about seven years.  And during that course, you know, how many famous people came by, you know, it's like from Jay Z to Bruno Mars. And I would see that truck in the back, you know, they were closed on 126th street, Oprah came by. So, you know, everyone wants to be. 

And if you're, if you're the who's who right in the music, you want to play. Oh, they, the red hot chili peppers, Metallica. And  it's funny. I was coming back. I was, I was rushing home to pick up my daughter and one of the supervisors was handing out tickets outside. Is it who? I said, Bruna Mark. So I love him. 

So, so I was like, Oh, I wish I, I would have taken that ride. I usually go to the back and so, so it was so many, so many things. And, and, you know, one of the things that we want to do is that when these, these great artists, they come and go, we like, you know, you can have the after party. In the hotel, we have a great lobby,  beautiful restaurants.

We're going to have outdoor restaurants that are going to see the entire city because we located in the center of 125th street. So we have the most amazing views, you know, so that's, that's what we want to get, you know, after, you know, don't rush, don't rush to, uh, you know, midtown beautiful things, you know, and all of this has so many beautiful restaurants.

So many new things have come in the last. I would say 15 years, 15, 20 years, and also getting, uh, President Clinton to come, one of the owners who was Steve Williams,  him and Charlie Rangel, you know, got President Clinton to come to Harlem and say, obviously the whole story was he was going to be in Midtown.

It was, it was, and people were outraged at how expensive the rent was, and it was like 15, 000 a month. But then Steve had an office close by and he said, Hey, President Clinton, stay here, you know? And once he came here and I really believe it was the renaissance for, uh, Harlem. And of course, he claims to be the first black president.

So, uh, you know, it was very fitting.  And this is, so this was back when he was. Like still during his presidency, as opposed to recently? Yeah. No, no. After, after the presidency, you know, after the president, usually presidents get an office, you know, they're entitled to. So that's awesome. Since then, you know, Whole Foods, Magic Johnson has a bunch of theaters that are close by.

The Red Rooster, which is a very nice restaurant, of course,  there's Rouse, there's so many, so many, uh, Sylvia's, which is, you know, two blocks over. So there's so many things there. And, and since I started there, there's at least 10 new buildings coming around, which is fantastic. Oh, wow. Harlem deserves great things.

Absolutely. Wow. That's impressive that it's having its own building renaissance there. I didn't, I always forget that. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I often think of Harlem, just kind of Harlem from the 20s and the Harlem Renaissance and all that. Oh no. It's not that anymore. It's totally evolved into Harlem of today.

Exactly. Harlem is a great place to be, you know, and, and our building, we have a beautiful building. It's, it goes from one 25th to one 26th street is the residential part. And, uh, it's, you know, it's, it's wonderful. I want people I've become a fan of working there for seven years. Wonderful food, wonderful people.

It's great. Oh, that's awesome. So for the building, so I'm thinking of circling back to the building on some of the logistics of it. So of the apartments, was it a mix? What was kind of the unit layout mix? Or was it more studios or more kind of one or two bedrooms? No, that's a mix of it. We have studios, one bedroom, two bedrooms, and half of them is affordable. 

It's affordable houses, you know? Oh, that's fantastic. It's wonderful. Yeah. And then we, of course, we have a lot of rooms that are ADA compliant and, you know. So it's a wonderful apartment.  Now I'm excited to like, look more at the photos because the listeners, I'm also like, I've seen the building from the outside.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's gonna be a lot of great things to look at on the Instagram. Exactly. I'll send you pictures where it was a hole in the ground, you know, and even if you look at some of the older pictures, you know, Harlem was a wonderful place in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. And the 60s, it went down a little, but now we're back, you know, it's back to his glory days, you know, you know, like any other place, you know, if you look in New York City, you know, the meat market was considered one of the worst places.

You wouldn't even walk through that in the 60s, 70s. Now it's. It's one of the most fashionable places, and I think the same thing is going to happen to Harlem. You know, Harlem has so many beautiful brownstones. People don't realize that. So, when I used to come home, and I would try to avoid some of the traffic, I would cut through some of these. 

This is beautiful. This is, Harlem is fantastic. They have just as many beautiful brownstones.  In Holland than any other place.  Oh, that's awesome. Amazing to hear.  I'm thinking about the famous people that you're mentioning that are have, you know, we're kind of coming through the site during construction for the renovation.

Oh, they didn't come through. They were going to the Apollo. Right, going to the Apollo. We're like, I'm just thinking of the But you would always see them, you know, you'll see them. You're like, wow.  But just thinking of the generation of musicians who are going to the Apollo kind of now and how it would probably be something similar back when the Apollo first started and all of the famous people who may have gone from Harlem to Victoria to Cotton Club, etc.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I think we'll get that back again, you know, once, once the theaters or the theaters are not opened yet, they'll be shortly opening up in the spring and, and then you'll have that synergy, you know, all the hotels, restaurants, everything like that. Yeah. Oh, that's exciting for the building itself.

I'm wondering about the way that it's going to kind of keep stitching the fabric together of.  Um, have there been a lot of, and there's been some renovations, but are most of the buildings that are kind of on that block, are they still historic buildings or have there been a lot of tort teardowns and kind of new builds in that area?

You know, there was a lot of teardowns by Adam Clayton Powell. There's like two new buildings that have popped up, actually about three of them on one side. And as you go down 126, there's, there's  I would say five buildings that are popping up, and at the end of 125th Street, there's a 30-story building coming up and there's a business campus for Columbia University.

There are about five buildings there. So when you come through there, you'll see the difference. You'll start seeing a lot of improvement. You know, I mean, look, I want improvement in Harlem. You know, I want, I want my mother, your mother to walk through safely. And when new buildings come in, That's what you get.

You know, people take pride and I'll give you a perfect example. About a month ago, I went to see how the hotel was, I walked into the lobby and I said, Hey, I worked here for seven years. Like, who are you? You know? And, uh, because it was, you know, the, the Renaissance had taken over. And I started talking to the concierge.

And one of the things the concierge said is, you know,  tell Ariel Offgang is the architect of record. Thank you very much. Because basically what she was saying was, this is the new center of all. People are coming in here. To have a drink and people from all over the world, you go to the fifth-floor lobby.

It's a spectacular lobby. You want to have a drink. You want to have something to eat. And you see tons of people just taking pictures because it's visually stunning. And I have to give Alicia from AJC all the credit for that too, you know, and, and that was nice to hear. You know, that's what you want to hear.

You want to hear that. Wow. This place makes a big difference.  Absolutely. We do. You know what? And even, even the hotel manager, it's like, you know what? I love it.  This was my destiny to come here. Wow. Lewiston was an amazing person. Yeah, and it was, he, he left a job.  Uh, and this, this job was open for me. I called him back and said, I love it.

I want to be in the hall.  That's amazing. It's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And wait until our hotel, the hotels. The rooftop bar opens up.  We have, I will tell you, you can see all of Central Park. You can see the east side, west side and, and then tired. We're in the middle. So you see, you see Central Park as a rectangle and you see three skylines, Central Park West, Central Park East and Central Park South.

So it's spectacular to go up there and see. Yeah. And, and New York City is just growing like crazy, you know? So you'll see. And we're, we're the highest in, um, In one 25th street at the moment, and they don't want anyone to build in front of it. They rezoned it. So, no, it's a, we'll have unobstructed views. Oh, that's fantastic.

Spectacular. Yeah, it is. Wow. I love it. Wow. And if you, if, you know, next time you come to the top and just,  just, just stare into center park. And. In the gaps, you'll see Times Square, all the, all the, uh, glitter Times Square. It's wonderful.  I love it. I'm so excited. Yeah, you have to go, you know, 2024. I know I'm going to go be when I'm in New York.

That's amazing.  Summer is wonderful in New York. Summer is in spring. You have to come during that time. Yeah, that's fair. Winter is not so much. It's a little chilly.  But the hotel is very nice. You can come and stay in the hotel.  Fair. That's it.  Oh, that's amazing. And so then I guess as we're, you know  Do you want to talk a little bit about some of the, I guess, some of the work that your firm does?

Cause I assume this is not a one-off project and this type of work is something that you all do. In square footage, we are like the fourth largest firm in New York. We have so many buildings going on and you know, Hurry off gang. It's a, it's a star. He's, he's, he's a young man. He's, he's, you know, I'm 15 years older than him or 20 years.

When I first met him, he was, uh, I was like, wow, he's a pretty young kid doing this. And, but you know what? Some people have it. And he's one of these people who has it. And we do all types of work in all the boroughs. We have high rises, we do hotels, we do low income, we do everything. Theater. There's nothing our office cannot do.

Right. You know, we have a  We have what, 70 people working for us and, you know, with administrator and everything. So I'm growing. Yeah, that's fantastic. Oh, this is so exciting. Well, I'm super excited to be able to share photos of the Victoria theater and get more people knowing about the history of it.

Cause until we talked about our pre-call, I had no idea that the Victoria Theater was on the same block as the Apollo and kind of ran in the same circles or even existed. Exactly. We are literally a hundred foot away and we have. And you can't, it's not a renovated canopy with a huge sign restored of, it says, Victoria.

You can't miss it. You'll see the Apollo sign, which everyone knows, you know, but then our, to be fair, I think our side is a little better, you know, it lights up, it's, it's, it's spectacular. You won't miss it. And to have the two theaters right next to each other is wonderful. And I hope more theaters open up.

Yeah, me too. Because I mean, that sounds like such a great space to be in there to be able to experience all of it. That's exciting. I know. Yeah, it was fun. I was before, uh, maybe an hour ago, I just quickly looked up who are some of the most famous people from Harlem, like Oh my God, that's  Sammy Davis Junior, Diddy, Milton Berle.

I can name, what Cicely Tyson. Wow. Just look at it. I can name, there's like 30 of these. Yeah. And it's amazing people. Amazing people. You know, Adam Clayton Powell. Charlie Rangel, these people became, you know, congressmen,  some of the greatest stars in the world. So, you know, Harlem, you know, Harlem's pretty wonderful.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, the other thing is when you ever come through there and obviously, you know, walk through the Apollo, there's a walk of fame under the Apollo and when you walk to it, you're like, you know, these are the greatest stars in the world.  Wow. That's yeah. I forget that the Apollo has that.

Cause it's kind of like, you know, I think people often think of like the Hollywood walk of fame. I'm like, all right, the Apollo is on that level has that as well. Yeah, that's fantastic. I would say, you know, how, you know, the type of people that came, I mean,  to the Apollo Theater and hopefully now into our Victoria Theater.

I mean, it's incredible. Michael Jackson didn't say anymore. That's it. You know, he was there. Jackson five. You know,  some of the best stars. It's like a Mecca. You have to come there in your life. If you're a huge star, you have to at least play that once. And I hope that same spirit is going to come To Victoria Theatre, since, you know, the offices are there, the Apollo office, and we're going to be running it.

Oh, that sounds fantastic. Well, this is amazing. Anything else you want to mention before we wrap up, or any place you want me to send people to find out more about you or the project? You can always look at our, our, you know, Aufgang, our website and, you know, the wonderful things that we do and we keep doing and come to Harlem.

That's what I say. Come enjoy, uh, you know, it's, it's a safe, all the, uh, stereotypes you had from 20 years ago. They're all gone, you know, and look, most of the stereotypes in this world are gone too, you know, and, and, and whoever they are, they're dinosaurs and they'll go away too. Right, exactly. Yeah. Come, come visit, enjoy.

It's another internal part of New York City. Mm-Hmm. is this, uh, hotel and, uh, Victorian Tower.  Thank you so much for listening. Links to amazing resources can be found in the episode's show notes. Special thanks to Sarah Gilberg for allowing me to use snippets of her song fireflies from her debut album, other People's Secrets, which by the way, is available wherever music is sold. 

If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the show.  And now that Tangible Remnants is part of the Gable Media Network, you can listen and subscribe to all network partner content at gablemedia. com. That's G A B L media dot com.  Until next time, remember that historic preservation is a present conversation with our past about our future.

We don't inherit the earth from our parents, but we borrow it from our children. So let's make sure we're telling our inclusive history.  I saw the first fireflies sun,  and right then  I thought of you.  Oh, I could see us catching them and setting them free.  Honey, that's what you do.  That's what you do.