324: Are COVID Hospitalizations Being Overreported? -with Todd Kenyon

Brian  
Trust the experts. We're all in this together it saves one life. Raise your hand if you've heard any of those tiresome phrases over the past year and a half. I know my hand is currently raised millions of people across dozens of industries were labeled on essential and forced the lockdown with livelihoods and futures crushed in an instant and as government has continued to expand its power and leverage fear to turn neighbor against neighbor a group of filmmakers have taken a stand and are determined to help set the record straight on the importance of following the actual science of the pandemic follow the science on lockdowns in Liberty from the sound mind create a group is a brand new docu series highlighting the stories of those negatively impacted over the past year and a half by ineffective government policies enacted in the name of following the science with noted experts like Nick Hudson from panda the pandemic data analytics organization healthcare policy advisors like Scott Atlas and telling stories of business owners families and just your average everyday person harmed by these government mandates follow the science on lockdowns and liberty has given us a chance to make sure the true stories of the pandemic are told so please help us at The Brian Nichols Show in supporting the sound mind creative group with noted figures in the Liberty movement like Dr. Tom Woods donating 1000s of their own dollars to this project. You know just how important this project is. So head The Brian Nichols show.com forward slash follow the science to donate and catch their brand new trailer to the docu series one more time. That's Brian Nichols show.com for slash follow the science we can become great at doing the the things that we do well the things that we focus on like I'm I think our audience is great at selling Liberty I think we have been amazing at doing that. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show Your source for common sense politics on the we are libertarians network as a sales and marketing executive in the greater telecommunications cybersecurity industry. Brian works with C level executives to help them future proof their company's infrastructure for an uncertain future. And in each episode, Brian takes that experience and applies it to the Liberty movement, you start to ask questions that pique his interest and get him to feel like okay, this guy's actually got something that maybe you can help me out. And then you're asking him questions and trying to uncover the real problems build that natural trust. I know it wasn't a monologue there, man. Instead of focusing on simply winning arguments or being right, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and their application in the world of politics, showing you how to ask better questions, tell better stories, and ultimately change people's minds. And now, your host, Brian Nichols. Well, Happy Friday there, folks, Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show. And thank you for joining us on another fun filled episode. Of course, I am your humble host, Brian Nichols. Do you catch yesterday's episode? Jeremy Todd? Yes. We talked about libertarian paternalism. It I promise you. It's not what it sounds like. Go listen to the episode. Jeremy is one of our sales gurus here. And we had a great sales short on Thursday. So make sure you go back and check out today's or yesterday's episode. But for today, why are you here tonight? Because, well, we're answering the question that needs to be answered. What's up with these hospitalizations? Why are over half of the hospitalizations now being shown to be either mild or a symptomatic cases for COVID? Well, we're gonna dig into that with Todd Kenyon. Todd has joined the program from Panda, the pandemic, data and analytics organization. And yeah, things are adding up. So Todd, he's a numbers guy. And we're digging into the numbers. So strap in, folks, this is a very important episode. And definitely it's going to be top of mind to say the least as we move forward here in the next few months. So that being said, out of the show, Todd Kenyon here on The Brian Nichols Show. Hey, thanks, Brian. Good to see you. Absolutely. Todd, thank you so much for joining the program. You along with the amazing team led by Nick Hudson over at panda you guys are fighting the good fight. Thank you so much. I've had Nick on the show. I think twice now. I'm doing work behind the scenes with the amazing team over at the sound mind creative group in their brand new docu series, follow the science on lockdowns in Liberty because despite being told with just the absolute assurance, as I was asked back in March by some friends, Todd that why are you focusing on the pandemic? Brian still it's it's gonna be over soon. The vaccines out there? Well, here we are in September of 2021, just for posterity sake. COVID is not over and it actually has gotten not COVID. But the government response to COVID has been increasing, it seems day by day. But before we dig into that, Todd, let's do a quick introduction. Who are you? And what got you into looking at the pandemic from a more data analytic standpoint. Now? Well,

Unknown Speaker  
I'm just a, an engineer, financial guy, PhD marine biologist has been a bunch of things but you know, at heart I'm an analyst and I'm a numbers guy and it when this whole thing started, it didn't take very long for things to start not looking right very quickly. You know, it was like Okay, wait these numbers, don't add up. that things are not as they're telling us. And I need to start finding some other people out there who think the same thing, you know, and so that involve first hitting Twitter. But then for Twitter, I made other contacts, including with, you know, Nick in the in the folks at Panda and then they, they brought me on board. And, you know, since then I've taken over their knowledge factory, which basically is, Panda has over 250 volunteer members, most of whom are scientists, engineers, and these, and there's also media people on economists and lawyers. And, and, you know, so it's a, it's a very broad group of people, but we're all kind of in the same boat, we all had the same, you know, aha moment early on in this thing, that, that it just, something's wrong here, right, something is wrong, they're not giving it to a straight. And we all started digging into the numbers. And so you know, that's, that's what we do and panda as the knowledge factory head. I'm basically in charge of getting the articles out there, the scientific base articles, and you know, making sure our brain body of scientists and other knowledgeable folks keep generating you know, interesting articles that really bring out the truth and kind of counteract the narrative that we're all being fed on a daily basis.

Brian  
Yeah, it's so important we see this I mean, what really brought Nick more so to I would say, not just, you know, a more national spotlight but an international spotlight he did a talk back I forget the the conference, but it yielded the really the ugly truth about the lockdowns talk he did in about a 45 minute or so conversation. And it was funny enough, I actually had Todd or I actually had Nick Atari on the show, the day after that that went live. And it I think it was ballpark 400k or so views. But the time that it aired and the time he was on the show, and within a week, gone new YouTube. And I mean, I actually just got chills, because it was horrifying to see how I was able to have a conversation with Nick and his entire his entire talk was not controversial. From the science standpoint, it was actually all well based in science where he was citing scientific articles and studies. And the fact that you are able to have a an entity, it just unilaterally acts an entire talk off of their platform entirely. Because it didn't tow a narrative. And to your point you raised up earlier. There's a lot of people I think at the beginning who were on board, we were like, okay, we don't know what this is 15 days to slow the spread. Okay, we can get on board with that. And I was even still, it's like we're gonna label people on essential versus essential that, but then all sudden, after that 15 days time, things got a little weird. What What was it in your world that maybe got your spidey senses tingling saying something is

Unknown Speaker  
afoot? Yeah, that it's it's a it's a good question. I don't know if there was, if there was one particular thing, but the the rapidity that it went from, well, this probably isn't going to be dangerous to the US, we don't have to worry about it, too. All of a sudden, two weeks being locked down to Okay, we're gonna extend it, you know, and that just that just they started throwing stuff at us so quickly. I'm like, like, Wait a second, you know, and as soon as you started looking into the data from other countries, you could at that point, even that early, you could look into the data from Italy, and see what was going on in Italy was the big disaster. And but you could look and see that already was coming out that all the mortality was in folks, or the great majority of it wasn't folks above their life expectancy with multiple comorbidities. And you're saying that no, wait a second, this this, this thing is not going around just wiping out average people left and right. There's, you know it, but they're not mentioning this, you know, they're not going they're not telling us the truth. So for sure, that was something and then, you know, later on, as I started to look at the data, we started to look at the numbers of the cases, the case counts, and how are the case counts being generated? Oh, the PCR testing there? How's the PCR testing work? Oh, my gosh, you got to be kidding me. Okay, so what, what CT values are they using? Right? how sensitive is the test they're using? Well, we're not going to tell you, nobody knows. It's really high, though. Probably it's probably a 40 cycle threshold. So you know, that allows you to detect virus that's that's far from viable, but they won't tell us what the cycle threshold is. And you're like, Well, why not? That should be important information. Well, that that is available nowhere. Okay, that that's something's wrong with that and then, you know, really threw me over the edge in my state of Rhode Island. Here, when the health director came out, and this was right at the end of April, said, Well, we've changed the way we're going to count hospitalizations. Because up until now, we have been trying to manually count people who are actually admitted to the hospital, because they're sick with COVID, as you would expect, but we're going to change it to everybody in the hospital who gets a positive COVID test. And that includes and the quote, unquote, that includes if you come in to the emergency room with a sprained ankle, and you test positive for COVID, your COVID hospitalization and running around in my office after listen to that, just like swearing my head off and screaming, because it overnight, the hospitalization numbers went up 30 35% and they erased the old data, and they corrected it somehow to meet the new criteria. So, you know, it's like, Okay, this whole thing's a farce, they don't really want to tell us what's actually happening. They're just trying to juice the numbers, that at least that's the feeling you get when you when something like that happens.

Brian  
It's funny how things happen this way, Todd, because, you know, peek behind the curtain. We've been playing email tag for about, what, three months. And just today, as we're recording here on Tuesday, the 14th. David, it helped me this last time again, sweet

Unknown Speaker  
drawing, I think that's why I said and I don't know if that's right,

Brian  
or wrong, correct us. But he wrote an amazing article over at the Atlantic, it's our most reliable pandemic number is losing its meaning. A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or a symptomatic cases. Hmm. And it just happens to be that that correlates with an article by look at this over on Panda COVID-19 deaths under reported or overestimated from July 28 2021. Oh, is this Todd Kenyon over a panda? So Todd, you wrote this article? Three months prior to David's article here at the Atlantic? Basically, his article says, Hey, you know, Todd's article from three months back. Yeah, it was right. So let's dig into then. What was it that started off, you're saying something is wrong here digging into the numbers? And I say here first cause of death, attribution? Can you dig into that little bit more in detail? Yeah. So I mean, the,

Unknown Speaker  
if there is a reliable number, in all of this, certainly cases, and we could spend, you know, couple of these episodes talking about the problem with cases and whatnot, but but, you know, deaths or deaths, and you think that well, at least in developed countries, in developing countries, you know, deaths are recorded that well, so you can't really necessarily use them reliably. But in developed countries, that's get reported. Okay, so we know if people are dying, so it becomes a, that shouldn't be a good number to use. But attributing the cause of death is far from straightforward, even during normal times. And this actually surprised me when I started looking into this because I knew that during COVID times, there was all kinds of problems with attributing death. I mean, in, in some cases, there was, yes, there were hospitals in certain areas, and certain times that were very busy, and they really didn't have much time to, to be around, get into the nitty gritty, and pretty much they were, they were attributing everybody to COVID death. But in a lot of cases, and a lot of countries, as you'll see in that paper, a death was attributed to COVID, if a positive test was received by the patient, anywhere from 28 to 60 days, in some cases, early on, it was any time if this person who died in the hospital had ever had a positive COVID test, it was listed as a COVID death. And, you know, that's the kind of thing that as a data person, as a as a scientist, as a financial guy, what have you drive you absolutely nuts, because that is not a relevant figure. Okay, that that is not a COVID, that that's the person who had a test at sorry, right now,

Brian  
it is a different occurrence. Yes, it

Unknown Speaker  
has nothing to do with it. So I mean, that, you know, that's just that's just one example. But to go back to even during normal times, you would think that well, you know, the recording death is a very straightforward process. While it really isn't. And, you know, I looked at looked at some of that there was a article I cite in there from a death certificate clerk, and a lot of cases, especially with older patients, and of course, as we know, the great majority of COVID deaths are, you know, the average or median age is 82. Or depending on what country you're in, it's quite high. The cause of death is oftentimes difficult to attribute because let's face it, the person might be very old and might be very frail, they might have had a number of comorbidities, and it's kind of unclear what they actually died from in a lot of cases. So sometimes they're just attributed a generic cause, like, you know, some cardiac cause, generally heart disease, something like that is is kind of used as a generic cause or, or maybe they're on a prescription for something, they are in it, or they are in a in a facility because of a particular ailment. So it'll be attributed to that. But rarely, if you know almost never is a is an autopsy done. And there's really no verification done. So you know, whenever they have gone back and looked at death certificates, and this is we're not even talking COVID yet here. But that they, when they go back and re examine them, they find that a significant percentage of them are wrong, they're just because it was just convenient to put something down. And so then you throw the whole COVID mass into this, where you have a disease that is hitting the elderly a lot, that has symptoms that are very similar to other respiratory diseases that hit the elderly a lot and hit them very seriously. And you, you verify it by using a test that has a lot of problems, or in a lot of cases you don't test at all, I mean, there was very lacks standards given especially early on by the who, and, and various countries health bodies that, you know, the, you can basically say, well, that the person more or less had the symptoms, or, you know, so we'll trim it to COVID. And so it just goes on, and on and on. There was a lot of incentives to attribute fatalities to COVID without in many cases, any hardcore verification that that's actually what the person died from.

Brian  
Wow, that's a lot. Um, I guess it really does. I mean, I don't know about you. I know for myself, it just does make you a little angry. I know we try not to, to focus on that, you know, we really try to focus on building solutions here the program, but it is so frustrating when this is I mean, this isn't new, right? This is not stuff that's, like just groundbreaking. If you're listening to this now, and you're like what I mean, I'm not good. Here's a real story. I thought I couldn't believe I had this conversation today. I had an older co worker at work, and I'm talking to him. And he goes, Well, you know, my wife was saying she's in health care. I'm saying that if you don't get no, if we don't get this, these vaccines just not gonna end people get their get their vaccines. And I said, what's funny? What do you think about that the new thing just came out showing that if you had COVID, that you actually might have stronger immunity than a double dose of Pfizer vaccine. And I'm not even kidding, Tony looks at me. He goes, What's that? I never heard of that. I said, I said natural immunity. And he goes, What is it? And I said, I said, like, if you had COVID, you might actually not be able to get it again. And he goes, really? I think I had COVID white? Why did I didn't know that. And he got mad, he was actually upset. He hit me. And I'm like, he's your average person, your average person, they're not doing what we're doing. You're not doing what you're doing, looking into the actual data looking, they're not looking to see the nitty gritty of what was signed on a death certificate, they're watching TV, and they're seeing the numbers come in, and they're horrified. So you see that it does come down to and we talk about this all the time in sales, one of the most strong motivating factors in any sale is either gonna be fear or love. So if you're seeing fear as one of the overarching themes throughout this entire pandemic, and every time Todd, we see a new government mandate put in place, they always do so on the basis of fear. When are people I hope sooner rather than later? Are they gonna start waking up? I hope so.

Unknown Speaker  
Well, it's so um, it's a very good point. It's a very good point. And, you know, and Panda, early on, we started out looking at the static detail, right? Because we're all data guys. Right? So. So let's, let's figure out why they're wrong about the data and try to get it right. But that doesn't really go very far with the average person. And you know, you still have to have that. But that is not what's going to take that guy in your office and have him understand what's really going on. And what you did today actually, is what might do that, you know, it's how do you reach we've really changed our strategy or evolved our strategy not changed it because we're still doing the data and we're still doing the scientific analysis. We've evolved it to realizing that we need to reach those people, one way or another. And it's not by throwing numbers and graphs at them for the most part. So when I say those people, I'm talking about the middle 40 or 60% of the population that are just trying to go about their lives, aren't trying to rock the boat aren't trying to get fired by their employer. I'm just trying to carry on and wait for this thing. Hopefully to die out one day and They those people need to be awakened a little bit here. And it's nothing about what political side they're on or anything like that. Yes, there's, there's 20%, let's say, that are all the way over in one direction and think all this stuff is great. You're on board with it. And I've been in favor of it since day one. And those people are gone. Okay, they're never going to see the light. until at least until it's way too late. Yep. So forget about them. But there's a, there's a big number of average people in the middle who are really trying not to pay attention that much. But if they do, it's probably to the news, mainstream news somewhere or something like that, or a newspaper, whatever. And all they're getting is one side of the story, bad news, censorship, you know, you name it. They're, they're getting all the wrong information. And you know, we really want to help those people understand what's really going on here as much as we can, it's not going to be at least initially by throwing numbers and graphs at them.

Brian  
Well, and this is why we do what we do. I mean, at the end of the day, there are more people out there, to your point, like my co workers, who they just don't know, they genuinely don't know. And I think it is on us, because we have seen just, I would say right now, Todd, especially, they have to your point remained out of the conversation until now, in many cases, they were being forced into conversation I'm seeing so I'm not sure if you saw this story up in upstate New York up very near to where I actually grew up in upstate New York, it was Louis County Health Systems, they had to shut down their maternity ward, because they had so many nurses who said, You know what, no, I'm gonna resign versus be forced to do something, in this case, take a vaccine against my will. Now, this is not an argument for or against vaccines, but to see that there are a lot more people like those nurses who they did remain on the sidelines, they didn't want to get involved in politics. But suddenly, they were forced to we just saw, I just did an episode here that aired on Wednesday with Carrie McDonald, just across the United States, we saw how many, you know, 1000s of college students all just chanting f Joe Biden, not because they're overtly political, but because they have now been pulled into this, whether they like it or not. We've seen what happens to these kids when they go to school. I mean, we had a kid on the program here just a couple of weeks back here. And he was saying how, if you are going to college, and you don't get the vaccine, by a certain date, I mean, there are schools who they're gonna threaten to turn off your Wi Fi. What are we doing like? And of course, they're gonna get mad. So I think right now is a great opportunity, Todd to take the graphs, right. Yeah, the message to meet them where they're at and to say, Hey, listen, let's talk about what's happening. And let's tell that story, because and this is where I want to wrap up is, the last part of your article, I think, is the most important part. We constantly hear people saying, you know, we just got to keep on you just keep gotta keep on. But there are so many lives that are just watching yours, fade away years, quite literally lost. Can you speak to more about what that actually means to your average person? Well, I

Unknown Speaker  
mean, it's, we try to, I mean, you're absolutely right about everything you said, I mean, this is the time to reach the middle ground and and to get that message out, because there are events that are tipping people over the edge Finally, you know, they were just trying to go about their business. And now they've had their two axes. Now they're talking about getting a third one, I know, we're a fourth one or God knows how many right and, and, or now they're, they're making their kid masks again, or they're talking about vaccinating their kid, you know, and they don't want their kid vaccinated. So there's there are a lot of things happening right now with this doubling and tripling down by the, you know, the opposition so to say that that's throwing a lot of the people in the middle ground kind of over the edge and say, Now, Hey, wait a second, you know, I went along with this for 18 months or whatever it is, and where has this gotten me and that's kind of what what you're bringing up there. You know, a lot of people have given up jobs you know, social meetings, friends, they're part of their kids childhood. You know, you name it, it just it just keeps going and where has it gotten them at this point? Well, it's just gotten them into even more junk and then it's piling on more junk and where is where's the end? One thing that they never bothered come out and tell us is when is this going to be over? Yep. In what's what's what's the criteria for ending this thing? It's not 100% of people getting vast because that's not going to happen. I hate to tell them it's just isn't going to happen. And by the way, that won't do it. And there's look at Israel, look at you know, There's this plenty of data out there that shows that, that the vaccine isn't going to stop this thing. Yeah, it may have efficacy for, for certain groups of people, for vulnerable people. But it's it's not the panacea getting 100% of the population back, which is impossible, or 80%, or 90%, or whatever number they want to throw out, isn't going to end this thing is gonna just make a disappearing. And we can just walk out one day and say, Oh, no more COVID, it's gone. We got it, we got the magic number of people that it's gone. It's not going to happen. It's an endemic virus, it can use animal reservoirs, it can use dogs and cats for crying out loud. So it isn't going away. We're going to have to live with it. So how much more? Are you going to give up? How much more of your liberties? Are you going to give up? for this? And when is it going to end?

Brian  
Indeed, when and I think it does come down to this, Todd, and let's turn the conversation this way. As we wrap up. I think we are seeing now because people are being pulled into the conversation that they are starting to instead of just questioning things. They're starting to take action. We're seeing parents across the United States standing up I mean, 5 million kids pulled out of the public schooling system in the past year. That was that stat blew me away from our Wednesday. So it's, it's amazing. And we're seeing this because parents are getting fed up. We're seeing people resigning and mass I saw this tweet, I had to laugh because they said Wouldn't it be funny, if Joe Biden became one of the biggest government cutting presidents ever, just by his virtue of forcing a bunch of federal employees to resign? Like, would that not be the ultimate irony? Yeah, but to that point, we might be getting to that that situation more sooner than than not. So let's do this. Let's empower the individual. Let's paint that better picture. Todd, what would you say to your average person who they're listening to this episode? And they're saying, Okay, I'm awake. I hear you. Now what?

Unknown Speaker  
Well, now what is spread the message, it's talk to your friends, and learn what you're willing to learn what you have the time to learn about what's going on, take control of your own life, and talk to your friends about it. And you know, just just spread it, it doesn't have to be be super complicated stuff, try to try to understand what's you know, think about what's been done, where it's gotten you and where we're going forward and how we get out of this. And that the only way we get out of it really is if enough people stop being compliant with the ridiculous stuff. And you know, that's, that's how the average person could say, yeah, I've had enough, these guys have had their time. And I'm done. I you know, you can go to my school board. And you know, I don't want my kid to be masked, etc. I want to stand up against that. And I want to tell my friends that they should stand up against the two and just just spread the word. And that's, that's all we can do at this point.

Brian  
Well, hey, what we're doing it right now. And that's why this conversation despite the multiple emails that just I missed, sorry, hey, we got this done. And I'm so thankful that we did began this conversation is exactly the conversation that we number one have been having on the show, but we need to keep having I and I say this to my friends who said, Brian, tone it down on the COVID talk, no, no, because this will not go away. Until we say it's time for it to go away. A lot of us have been saying you can pretty much go back to 2019 if you want to, but you need to want to and you need to stand up. So with that being said, Todd Kenyon, from the amazing organization, Panda, where can folks go ahead and follow you if they want to go ahead and continue the conversation?

Unknown Speaker  
panda.org is the place to start that's that's our website. That's where we have all our papers. We have a couple of them out recently on mandatory vaccination and things like that. And I'm on Twitter as at TT bike fit TT vi ke fit. So you can follow me on twitter there. And that's that's pretty much it. Those are the those are the two spots.

Brian  
Awesome. So how about this, folks, we'll make it easy for you. We'll include all those links plus Todd's bio, in the show notes, go ahead to your favorite podcast. catcher and click the artwork. It'll bring you right to The Brian Nichols Show website where you can find not only the show notes and the links, but also the video version, as well as the entire transcript to today's episode, Todd Kenyon, thank you so much for joining us in the program. And with that being said, folks, thank you for joining us on another fun filled episode of The Brian Nichols Show. Thanks, Ryan. Who doesn't like going out and having a glass of wine and celebrating Liberty? Well, if you're in Alameda County, don't worry. I have an amazing event for you. Coming up on Sunday October 3 at 1pm, the 15th annual wine and liberty celebration at Westover vineyards winery sponsored by the Libertarian Party of Alameda County questions, email Elizabeth stump elpac, Vice Chair and Vice chair@lpac.us. Already folks that's gonna wrap up our conversation with Todd Kenyon from Panda, I told you stuff is weird. And thank God we have folks like Todd, and the amazing crew over at panda fighting the good fight and making sure that the real data the real analytics are available because up to this point, our government overlords have made it a point not to release the data that is so important to know how to actually combat this virus, which is why it is so important that if you've not had the chance yet, please go to the show notes hit the support button for our sponsor there the follow the science on lockdown and liberty docu series from the amazing team. At the sound mind creative group. This is why we need to make sure we're telling the stories of what's actually happening and making sure we're raising those voices up. So please if you have not had the chance yet, head to the show notes please consider making a donation to the amazing team at the sound mind creative group so we can make sure this important docu series is created. And number one, number two, we make sure that we're able to have a tool in the tool belt to bring to the conversations that we are having. So with that being said, if you enjoyed today's episode, please do me a favor, share and make sure you do Tick Tock Jeepers, I can say this I promise tag, Todd, there we go. And make sure you go ahead and tag yours truly at B nickels liberty. But with that being said, folks, that's all I have for you today. coming up tomorrow, Saturday. I know Saturday, Olivia rondout. She is going to be having a one on one. Did you guys hear what's up with Nicki Minaj having pretty much all the blue checks and corporate media turned on her when she said she wasn't getting the vaccine when she didn't show up to the Met Gala. Well, Olivia has some thoughts there. So make sure you hit that subscribe button so you're not missing a single episode as we go live. That being said, it's Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show for Todd Kenyon. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Brian Nichols Show. Find more episodes at The Brian Nichols show.com if you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. Want to help us reach more people? Give the show a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe to find us at Brian Nichols show.com and download the show on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow me on social media at V. Nichols liberty and consider donating to the show at Brian Nichols show.com forward slash support. The Brian Nichols Show is supported by viewers like you. Thank you to our patrons Darryl Smith, Laura Stanley, Michael Lima, Michel Mankiewicz, Cody John's, Fred Acosta and the we're libertarians network. audio production for The Brian Nichols Show is brought to you by DB podcast audio Learn more by emailing inquiries to Wm at dB pod audio.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai