352: Sell Liberty with Jeremy Todd (Guest: Spike Cohen)

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Faced with an uncertain future many business owners and technology professionals don't have the time needed to invest in their business technology strategies and as a result are afraid of their technology getting outdated and putting their company and customers information at risk. The digital future is already here. But with all different choices in the marketplace, it's difficult to know which one will be the best fit for you and your strategic vision. Imagine having the peace of mind that your business is backed by the right technology investments that are tailored to your specific needs. Hi, I'm Brian Nichols and I've helped countless business owners and technology professionals just like you helping you make informed decisions about what technologies are best to invest in for your business voice bandwidth cybersecurity, business continuity juggling all the aspects of business technology is messy. Let me help at The Brian Nichols show.com forward slash help and sign up for a free one on one consultation with yours truly to dig deep into where you see your company headed and how we can align your business technology towards those goals again that's Brian Nichols show.com forward slash help to get your simplified Business Technology started today we can become great at doing the the things that we do well the things that we focus on like I'm I think our audience is great at selling Liberty I think we have been amazing at doing that. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show Your source for common sense politics on the we are libertarians network as a sales and marketing executive in the greater telecommunications cybersecurity industry. Brian works with C level executives to help them future proof their company's infrastructure for an uncertain future. And in each episode, Brian takes that experience and applies it to the Liberty movement, you start to ask questions that pique his interest and get him to feel like okay, this guy's actually got something that maybe you can help me out and then in you're asking him questions and trying to uncover the real problems build that natural trust. I know it wasn't a monologue there man. Instead of focusing on simply winning arguments or being right, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and their application in the world of politics, showing you how to ask better questions, tell better stories, and ultimately change people's minds. And now, your host, Brian Nichols. Well, Happy Saturday there, folks, Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show. And thank you for joining us on Well, not The Brian Nichols Show no today. And every Saturday going forward will be cell liberty, part of The Brian Nichols Show hosted by Jeremy Todd, where we're discussing all things sales from a Liberty perspective with those people in the actual industry who are doing on a day to day basis. today. Spike Cohen joins the program to talk all things sales. With Jeremy Todd So thank you to spike for joining us on Yes, the inaugural episode of sell Liberty which by the way, I want to make sure I give a special shout out to Brent director for handing us the keys to sell liberty, he is stepping away from politics and this is a baby he started as a resource for those people in the greater Liberty movement to leverage specifically in the Libertarian Party so a sincere thank you to Brent for trusting us with your vision as we carry things forward. So without further ado, on to the show Jeremy Todd sell Liberty with Libertarian Party vice presidential nominees spike Cohen, here on The Brian Nichols Show.

Jeremy Todd  
Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the very first episode of sell liberty. I am your host, Jeremy Todd and I am joined today by the amazing Lauren liberty. She is back, pressing the buttons making the things happen. But anyways, thanks for joining us. Our goal here at the sell Liberty show is going to be maybe a little different than other libertarian podcasts you've come to know in and done, we will bring in the best and brightest in our movement. And that's why we have spike on tonight. But down at his core spike is really a great salesperson. Even before he was a great politician. So our goal here is to bring on guests, whether they're in politics, or in business or in personal coaching, personal growth and development that's going to help you become the best version of yourself so that you can be more effective out there for liberty. So with that being said, let's bring on the man the myth, the legend. He is spike Cohen. In Hey Mark, how

Spike Cohen  
are you doing? Jeremy Lauren, good to see you.

Unknown Speaker  
Hi. I don't know why I'm here. Sorry.

Jeremy Todd  
Ah, all right. So, um, we are having their spike. Yes. So hey, there we go. Got it now. All right. So spike. How are you man?

Spike Cohen  
I'm doing good. It's good to see you, man. We haven't seen you since.

Jeremy Todd  
What freedom freedom, right? Yeah, that's right. Freedom fest was hanging out with a bunch of conservatives missing out messing up their party. It was it was awesome.

Spike Cohen  
It was it's so this is actually a perfect segue into what we're talking about. Yeah, we went into not hostile territory, but certainly not libertarian territory, right. Like we went into where there was, I guess, a sizable libertarian minority, but we were definitely a minority. And yet, we were largely overall very well received. And I think the reason for that was because we didn't come in and call them all Well at least I didn't call them all a bunch of bootlickers. And you know, this is half your fault, too. We went in and talked with them about the things they were concerned on, they had very legitimate concerns that were all based around their not being free. We were able to have that inroads with them and then talk about the things that everyone in charge including the people they voted for had done that led to them not being free. So it was a really cool conversation. But it took us being able to literally meet them where they were, which was in South Dakota and and have that discussion with them on for lack of a better word on their terms on in their space on on the things they were concerned about, which were the lockdowns, the threats of future mandates, taxes, regulations, and things like that, but then opening that up to it's not just that and it's not as though it's just the people you don't like who are making those things worse. And I had a great time I had a really good time. Yeah.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah, fantastic time up in South Dakota. Something I never thought I would say in my entire life. That sentence. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for coming on. Ready to talk some shop?

Spike Cohen  
Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's

Jeremy Todd  
talk shop.

Okay, Spike. So we know spike the politician. Take us back. Where did you get your start in sales. And tell us that story about how you kind of cut your teeth and learned about how to become a great salesperson.

Spike Cohen  
So me personally, my first job in sales. Hey, me personally, my first job in sales was actually in my teens. But growing up, I was in a sales family. My father has always been selling things. He's always been a salesman. He was actually a retired salesman. And and my mother was also later on in my I guess early in my teens was in sales. She got into real estate sales, which she's still doing to this day. She owns a real estate company. And so I've always been around sales people. I've always been in a family of sales people. I'm my first time actually doing what I consider to be a sales job or a job that I should say a job that had elements of sales to it was actually the first job that I ever had which was bussing tables at an oyster bar. working under the table I was I was under age, you know, child child labor laws be damned, I as a 13 year old I started working on on summers just to have some some spare cash. And what I learned very quickly I learned a few things from doing that number one, I learned that I didn't want to work for someone else for the rest of my life because no I was 13 and I would see other people doing the same thing as me and they were two and three times my age were making all that much more than me and I thought yeah, I don't want to be doing this in my you know, late 20s and 30s and so forth. So but the other thing I learned was, the way that our job worked was I got five bucks under the table. But I also got tipped out by the other by the by the servers based on what they personally chose to give me and there were a couple of stingy ones that wouldn't give me anything or they give me $1 or whatever, and other ones who just liked me and they give me a lot but for the most of them, what they gave me depended on what value I could provide for them. And at first I thought that was well how hard I could help you know, quickly if you get to their tables and and wash their tables before other people and make sure that that they weren't having to wait for a table but then I realized it wasn't just that it wasn't just the things I could you know, do for them like washing tables, or you know, taking an order over to someone It was also the connections I was making with them and how much I could help to upsell their clients and things like that it was networking and I didn't really know the term networking at that time. But I was networking and the more I networked and the harder I networked the better that I got and I mean substantially better I would get you know double my base pay if I was doing that other stuff as well and I wasn't really having to work any harder I was just having to make more connections and and and you know, kind of get in there and basically do the sales and networking stick. And it was so it was very early on that I learned even before I started my web design company when I was in when I was 16 right before my 17th birthday it was even before that that I realized how important it was to you know make those human connections with people and you know reap the whirlwind from it.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah, I you know, what's really funny? Is that I that was my first job. I was a busboy at a seafood restaurant in my town I got I was paid under the table and I got busted okay from so that maybe we're onto something here maybe that's how you do a vote. That's how you do it that's it

Unknown Speaker  
thanks thank you thanks for joining

Jeremy Todd  
um, what what I found really interesting about what you said is you talked about not only providing value but value isn't always tangible people like to buy whether it be product services or in our case as libertarians ideas from people that they like and people that they have formed a relationship with and maybe that's where you know we tend to have a little bit of an unlike ability streak in us as libertarians a lot of times we can be abrasive and argumentative and want to debate So what are some things that because I catch myself doing it too, and I noticed a and as I'm sure a lot of our guests or our viewers did, you've been a little sassy on Facebook coming at some folks right? You draw back that line to say okay, I've got to approach and attack this problem that this person is saying that's obviously wrong but how do I maintain my likeability so that I if somebody's ears are perked they're not turned off by just how awful of a human being I am.

Spike Cohen  
Well and that's so this is where it gets very where you have to make sure that you're keeping the line there right so you know there's there's this whole thing that's happened where I'm commenting on posts and and it's created this whole mythos of the the spike Cohen comment there's actually a Facebook group called screenshots of spike Cohen comments which I didn't even know existed for the first I guess week that it was around until all of a sudden people started putting that in my on my posts I wish someone would go I'm so putting this on screenshots is like going to like, really? And then I clicked on it and it had 1000s of members. I'm like, Okay, there we go. Um, but if you'll notice when I do those things, first of all, I never punched down. I'm always punching up. If I'm going hard at people. I'm going hard at you know, high level elected officials, you know, police departments, agencies, federal agencies, things like that. But even then, I always maintain a level of humor to it. I also, almost always Not, not always, but almost always give some kind of a call to action of a solution of what can be done. So like, if I'm going after the ATF, I pretty much always end it with, we're going to abolish your agency, meaning that that's the so I've been talking about whatever the issue was, I gave whatever snarky response. But I didn't just say that I also then said, and here's what we're going to do. Here's the problem, here's what we're going to do. Even in delivering a joke of a delivery, I'm saying we're gonna end your agency. That's the problem. That's a simple one, a one that really took off earlier today was Joe Biden announced that he was going to be working, he worked out a deal with the ports to stay open 24, seven to help deal with this backlog of shipping containers. That's, that's waiting. That's sometimes 1000s of them waiting at the ports, especially on the west coast. And any he even mentioned, you know, this is happening. Very few other countries don't do this. Every country does this except for us. And so I just said, Why didn't you bother telling them why this country was was the only one that wasn't doing this, and I put up an article about how it was federal regulations and, and labor contracts from close shop unions, in you know, captive states where you have to work for that union, if you want to work on that shore, or on that, on that, on that port. So that, you know, they really can can call the shots in their in their contract that make it impossible to keep it open 24 seven, unless the federal government steps in and changes things. Yeah, even then being snarky, it went to a solution. And so I always tried to do that. The rest of the time, when I'm just talking with people I don't like I'll see a lot of people they'll beat up on like, someone who disagrees with them, just some random person that they can kind of go after, and encourage their followers to go after. And I don't do that, because I have no interest in attacking some poor schmo on Facebook. And I don't think it's a good look to do that. And I think it even if I can score points, right, then I don't like I don't think long term, it helps to create this idea that Yeah, you'll just attack anyone. I want my attacks, to be humorous, but more importantly, to be going after the people who actually deserve it. Not not just someone who disagrees with me.

Jeremy Todd  
Absolutely. Punching up is very different. You know, what, what, what's really interesting, and there's a lot of flack for it about how kind of goofy and nice of a guy Gary Johnson was. But I came in in 2016. I found liberty and libertarianism in 2016. Myself, basically, through watching the republican primaries, I grew up in Alabama, so I didn't really have a choice to to be republican or not. And right, I you know, seeing, seeing the way Donald Trump acted, I was just kind of like, oh, man, this is like, I know what got some people going. But there were a lot of people like me who silently said, the same for me. And that's when the never I don't move in on the right started. Now we got way worse over his presidency. But that initial never Trump movement was, it was me and I was looking for something. And thanks to somebody working on the McAfee campaign. Funny enough, I stumbled into the Libertarian Party and libertarianism. And so I think it's really important, especially in social media, once you develop a little bit of a following to realize that there are people who see everything that you do, and you may be able to score some points. But are you scoring them the right way? And do you take moment to be sure of it? Okay, we can wait, we can have a whole hour on that here. But there's some things I want to know. Okay, because you did this for months in real life, face to face with actual people. We weren't arguing on the internet. These were people you know, 10 feet away from you asking you a question. They could punch you in the face potentially. So

Spike Cohen  
um, yeah, I had at some events I had security like you know, some boot would show up or something like that.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah. in Tempe here I was at that the one Yeah. But even

Spike Cohen  
then in Boise, like at the table. Yeah, there be some cnn there. But there were also like 14 people so I mean, if they really didn't like what I had to say, you know, ya know, someone could have punched me in the face. And I that was, and there were other events. I mean, there there was when I was in Oakland, there was about 200 people there. We didn't have any security. You know, we had some people that were that were supporters of the campaign, but I don't expect them to, you know, to, you know, square up by our sides and get into fisticuffs with a bunch of strangers. But no, I mean that Yes, very much so if I could have if the crowd turned I could have had to deal with that and it's only takes a while to get on a bus and drive off that isn't an easy escape.

Jeremy Todd  
Right? Um so here's my question, because it's something that happens that all of us salespeople do, especially if we ever work outside and we go on sales calls. If you recall from the office where Dwight had his gym would get out of the car and Jim goes again seriously, and Dwight would say close the door and then you turn on you know, heavy metal music and punch the back of it. So what was your pregame routine? And what do you do? What habits Do you go through mentally? physically emotionally whatever What are your practices for being sure that when you take that microphone you're you've got spikes a game

Spike Cohen  
so this is where a lot of people thought I was some kind of weird alien or something. I don't really have a pre game and I never have I've maybe it's because I grew up in a sales family or whatever I don't really like this is who I am. A lot of people are surprised when they meet me that I'm not any different than I am right now. They expect there's you know, the toned down version of spite that isn't on I'm like this all the time. And so I would often I guess if there's a pregame I was just by regular goofy self and you know before an interview before a big appearance before going getting out of the bus and there's you know, hundreds of people outside you know, cheering and waiting to hear what I have to say and I'm talking for hours because I wouldn't just go up and you know, we'd have usually at the Edit typical event we'd have two or three people speak before me for a few minutes and then I'd get up and I'd speak for a few minutes to get my speech but then I would do q&a for when we started off I didn't have a limit if everyone there had questions I would stay there for two three hours answering questions with I remember there were times where it would reach a point where the the strobe lights or whatever were on me and I couldn't even see the crowd anymore because it was pitch black outside and I'd be out there to three hours we eventually reached a point where just because it was starting to have trouble with the driver getting from place to place in time we started limiting it to about I think like 10 questions or something like that which is still you know a lot a large number of questions plus answering questions from people that would come up and you know, I'd sign autographs and do selfies and everything but really my thing was I was like a goofy guy that I would be like this and I would you know take a drink of some water or something be talking to people and then go and grab the microphone and talk for two hours. Um, I will say I think the biggest thing is to get away from noise so I could take a call about some kind of this this the generation gap here this is this is for old millennials Gen X and older Yeah, this is a phone and now I don't know do they do that? I don't know. Anyway, um, I would take you know, I could take a call Yeah, I could take a call or know this. I could take a call uh, um, you know about some kind of you know, problem with the back end of the campaign that had to be dealt with right before going out but I would usually try to save those things until I wasn't having to do that so I try to kind of clear out my headspace of that stuff. But yeah, I don't really have like a set routine or anything like that I really I'm I'm trying to think because I've been doing this for so long to Jeremy that's part of the other thing is that it's kind of second second fiddle to your old hat to me now. Um, I think so thinking back when I was younger and I would go to sales things I would listen to music that would get me pumped up or I would either do that or sometimes I had this against how old I am I have these cassette tapes Brian Tracy and like all these different people in psychology of selling and I listen to those and I get kind of like hyped up about like you know this is how you do it and then I would go in that either that or something like some kind of music that would get me hyped up which for me is rap but now it's I'm you know I'm like an old man now I just you just wake me up. Tell me Give me about three minutes Yeah, give me a few minutes to get the butterflies out of my out of my brain and then go out there and do the thing

Jeremy Todd  
that's phenomenal. Yeah though in in you know, for those of you who don't know or you're maybe watching that that Brian Tracy tip, man like that. That really is a game changer. And now there's Yeah, audible and I can Yeah, seven hours of Jim Rohn I mean, how am I not gonna go kick ass? You know, listening to Jim Rohn talk about the art of motivation and selling the article is so valuable. And what's funny is you don't always learn something it's just like you you have the ability to immediately regurgitate something and I think one of the one of the greatest lessons I learned in sales management was that it Not always actual advice you're giving them to your team, sometimes it's just a new thing that they can pretend to be enthusiastic about, because it's their enthusiasm, that's gonna matter. So you're like, Guys, I got this great new clothes, it's working so well so and so use it the other day to close, I want you to go rock this, you know, pitch XYZ. And it, it's not a special pitch, it's just, they deliver it with everything that they've got. So I think that's really interesting. Um, but speaking of the q&a is while you were on while you're on tour for the campaign, we are going to have a q&a at the end of this. So if you're on Facebook, hop in the comments, ask spike a question.

Spike Cohen  
And let me let me show this off guard to get it.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah. Yeah, while we're talking Exactly. Um, but so you get your you're standing in front of your tour bus. And you get asked a question. And it's, it's not really, what do you think about this question? what it ends up being is, hey, libertarians believe this, I believe this sell me, you know, you got a great nose. Hi, what was your step by step process to deliver that pitch to them on our ideas?

Spike Cohen  
So I think the biggest hold on Ask me your Okay, um, so the biggest thing is, so you're saying when I have someone that, you know, they're saying, libertarians believe this, I believe this sell me on why you believe this type of thing? Yes, yeah. What was your step by step process?

Jeremy Todd  
What were the sort of, you know, finish, not finish lines, but checkpoints, you had to go through to say, Okay, this is my step by step process to persuade this,

Spike Cohen  
right. So I use kind of when someone comes up to me, and they're like you believe this, I believe this convinced me of yours that which happened a lot last year, because it was during the campaign this year, it's been less than that, although there was some of that at freedom fest. But my method is basically pretty simple. First, I figure out where they're coming from on it. Now, I don't always have to do that, you know, a conservative saying, I believe that we need to be, you know, have an active strong military, that's, you know, going in and engaging in all these wars to keep us safe. It's not hard to figure out where they're coming from, they want safety and protection. They believe that there's a bad Boogey Man out there that wants to hurt them. And they believe that the government is the only entity that can that can help them. So I guess my method is, if I don't already know what it is, maybe ask some additional questions. So if someone says, you know, we need this, you know, you want this, I believe we need this. I'll say, Well, what does this mean to you? Because a lot of times, you know, no one says, I want endless wars that result in a bunch of people dying. And I want the CIA arming terror groups. And they don't say that they say, I want the thing that the military industrial complex says it is right. I want people over there fighting for our freedoms. Well, I'm not against fighting for freedom. But I'll say what does that mean to you fighting for our freedoms? And they pretty much reiterate, you know, the wars and going over there and having a strong military and everything else? Well, what what is it that you believe about that that's causing that to happen? You know, what, what is it about that action that makes you What do you believe that's accomplishing, and things like that, what I always try to do is, once I've established why they believe in this thing, using what they've told a combination of what they've told me, and some presuppositional stuff that I take about someone if they're from the right, or if they're from the left, and then I try to show them how the thing that they support goes against goes completely against what it is, they presume, or or, you know, extensively believe. So like, for example, if I have someone in front of me, who is from the right, and they're telling me that they support these wars, well, I know, I know someone from the right what they care about, they care about, they want a smaller government, they want government that isn't as obstructive to them, they want lower taxes, they want less regulations, they don't want to be told what to do it some similar parallels to libertarians in that way. They've just been told to believe that in order to have that kind of freedom, they need this big, you know, monopoly of violence to be doing all these things for them. So it's very easy in that case, to say, Yeah, but here's what's happening with those wars. You know, we have the CIA, arming terror groups, and then they use the fact that those terror groups are armed as an excuse to send our loved ones over to fight them and potentially die. And you know, and talk about that stuff, and then talk about the infringement on our rights and liberties here with the Patriot Act and things like that. And an increasing number of people on the right, recognize the Patriot Act is bad. I mean, they're now using it to go after parents who are angry at school board meetings. So that kind of thing. And if it's someone on the left, if they're coming to me and saying, Well, you know, you think that you know, we should have You know, privatized health care. And I think that you know, healthcare is a right, you know, tell me why I should believe that Well, okay, you believe that the people on the left tend to care about the the poor and the marginalized, and those who are unable to provide for themselves. And they've been told that in order to be able to protect those who, who, you know, have the least that they need to have an entity to, to protect them from the bad guys, even though they are the bad guys, that entity are the bad guys. So with them, I would say, you know, what, what does, you know, social, what is health, Medicare for all mean to you, or what is socialized medicine mean to you, and then I would talk to them about how that very entity drove up the cost of health care, and that we would like to eat, you know, even before we get into the question of which side pays for it, I want to reduce the cost of health care. But that requires finding the very entity that just so happens to be using our suffering to push for more control of our healthcare. So the bottom line is, establish where their point is, and figure out what it is they care about, what are their first principles? Or their values or their concern? Where are they coming from? And then once you can reconcile the difference between what it is they support, and what it is they believe you can now close that gap, because everyone has almost everyone has valid and valiant concerns. They're not being addressed with their statism, they're actually being made worse with state ism, all we have to do is meet people where they are recognized where they're coming from, and then we can show them how liberty is a better way to do it.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah, there's there's this idea that out there that when you say, meet people where they are it means not disagree with them or not have it that's not it at all, meet people where they are is is exactly what you just said, find out what they value, which is what's important to them, what's going to make the needle move, and then show them exactly how the state is infringing on their value system and belief system. How Liberty can provide that solution. That that that's phenomenal. But I think a big key I don't want anybody to miss this. Spike said, ask questions. When somebody engages, ask the question, Well, why do you believe that? Why is that important to you? Because what's important, as libertarian, so I had this episode with Brian a few weeks back where we talked about, it's called values based empathy. And the seventh one on the list is Liberty oppression. And as libertarians we basically make this is why we're consistent. We make every decision based on that one value system. Yep. instructure. Well, the other six are what our audience and the people we're trying to win over make their decisions based off of. And that can be things like convenience, loyalty, there are a lot of different things that people value, you have to sell them your ideas based on what they value, not what you value, you know? Yep,

Spike Cohen  
exactly. Yeah, and this is a very common mistake that happens with libertarians. Most people don't actually realize that freedom matters, they might want to be free to do what they wanted to. But they don't realize that if we go to them, and this is part of the my, my my my loving criticism of the libertarian movement, all of our messaging is geared towards people that already believe what we believe, right? The people who already believe what we believe, and that they haven't joined us, the reason they haven't joined us is because they don't think we can accomplish anything, that we don't need to convince them were the most libertarian, they already know that right? Where they don't care, they may know it and don't care, or they don't believe it and don't care. Either way they don't care. What they want to see is result results comes from bringing everyone else into. So our messaging needs to be on what their concerns are. And the thing is, guys, most people don't wake up and go, you know what, I'm not getting all of my freedoms, and I'm certainly not getting them all of the time. If that were the case, then we'd already be winning. But that's not the case. And and you know, we need to people are wake up and they're worried about health care, they're worried about the cost of living, they're worried about their job, they're worried about, you know, they're worried about their kids, they're worried about their kids education, they're worried about, you know, all these different things, that they're worried about public safety, they're worried about crime, they're worried about everyday things, they're worried about the debt that they have that's just growing and growing and growing. Now, these are all things that we have answers for all of these things, the best answers, they make way more sense than everyone else. But if we come at them, from a value standpoint that they don't give a shit about. They don't care about freedom, and they don't know what the Federal Reserve is, and they don't know about property rights or any of this stuff. They might have these these ideas at some point, but they don't know what it means that if you come to them if you go to As someone who says, I'm worried about the price of health care, and you say, Yes, we definitely need to talk about your natural rights, you're already talking past it. What if instead and bear with me, but what if instead, you had a surefire way to find out this and this happens at the same time to find out everything they care about, okay? Everything, nothing is left on the table, you find out what makes them tick. And at the same time that you're doing this, they are coming to like and respect you and want to hear more from you. Same time, you don't have to make a choice, you get to learn everything that they think while at the exact same time, they are lowering their cognitive defenses, and listening to you more and more and more, and want to hear more and more and more from you, and recognize that you're coming from a good place. That's you get that from asking them questions.

Everyone likes to answer the questions. They like to tell you about themselves. They like to hear be heard. And while they're sitting there spilling their guts to you, you're finding out everything they care about, we already have all the best answers. So just ask him a question, shut your mouth and listen to them. And after they answer that, ask some more questions. And this is a good exercise too, by the way, so while you're while they're answering stuff for you, take a moment to think instead of standing sitting there and trying to figure out what your answer is going to be to what they said. Instead, think you rapping next question, you want to ask them based on the thing they just told you, that will ensure that you're actually listening to them after you ask them a question. And over time, as you get better at this, you'll reach a point where you're not having to, you know, intentionally look for the next question. It'll just be like, second nature to you. But starting off, ask three or four questions before giving an answer. People like answering questions. And the more you find out about them, the better you can tailor your answer to them. When I say meet people where they're at, like you said, I'm not saying just sit there go. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I agree with you, you should vote libertarian that doesn't do anything. It means figuring out where they're coming from, and then tailoring your response. It's still the same values, it's still the same policy, the answer is no different. It's just geared towards what they actually care about. If you do that you can bring them in or even if you don't, even if in that moment, you don't make them go, Oh, my God, Jeremy, I'm a libertarian. At the very least, you have planted seeds, if they walk away saying, Ah, you know what, I, I get what you're saying. But I just think the government should be more involved. And you go, yeah, you know what, that's fine. I get it. You know, I think it's just important that, you know, we both recognize we're coming from the right place. They walk away from that, and consciously they're thinking, yeah, that libertarian, you know, he was kind of wrong about this, and that, but it was a good talk in while they're sitting there thinking about the good talk, they just had, subconsciously their brain is working overtime to reconcile the fact that they just had a really nice conversation with someone who said a bunch of things that completely went against everything that they believe. And in that time and there and now that will manifest itself. They'll watch something on the news, or they'll read some post on Facebook, or the watch a YouTube video. And though in their head, they're thinking, Oh, that's like that thing. Jeremy told me. Oh, yeah, but but long before they have that moment, their subconscious was already going. Jeremy was right. Jeremy was right. Jeremy made a good point here. Jeremy. Actually, I think Jeremy might have been right. I think I was wrong about that. Jeremy made a good point. And all that happened, because you've lowered their defenses. They walked away having a good conversation, you didn't attack their values, or their their self worth. And instead, you just gave them a bunch of stuff. They get to sit there and step one, because it's right. And they and they know that it's right.

Jeremy Todd  
Absolutely it. It's always better to be interested than interesting. Right? Yes. And that leads that what what's funny is I have this list of questions where I'm like, this would be a good starting point for spike, and you answer all of them. Their answers, that's what great salespeople, that's

Spike Cohen  
what happens. Ask questions.

Jeremy Todd  
It does, right? It really does. You've told me everything. So we talked about planting seeds and in putting people on this journey, and that absolutely is a win. And I think we've got to start redefining our wins. People are not going to have conversations with us and flip overnight. The human ego doesn't allow us to change our entire political philosophy on one conversation but planting seeds so my question for you is when do you know you've closed the sale in politics?

Spike Cohen  
That's a tough one. I think. And this is where it's difficult because yeah, you're metric for sale. is whatever it is you're trying to get them to do give them your numbers so that you can invite them to future events if you're trying to grow a local affiliate or your state affiliate or something like that the number of people that you get to sign a ballot for ballot a sign a petition for ballot access the number of people that you can get to join the party or a number of people you can get to say that pledge to vote for you or to donate to your camp. There are many different metrics but by and large I'm not sure there's a hard close unless you're going for a specific metric if you're just talking with people about Liberty I guess the closest thing to that is when they go yeah you know what I think you're right that's probably the closest thing just in general conversation but you've got I I'm I am I would say that I'm a fairly good salesperson for liberty I don't want to toot my own horn but I think I'm think I'm fairly adept at selling libertarian ideas. It is very rare that someone says Gosh darn it, I'm a libertarian spike like it doesn't happen like that instant change it happens rarely, but what happens more often is I'm looking at them and they're looking down or looking to their sides while I'm talking to them and I realized in their brain they're like he's right here's returning right the like like Jeremy said, You're someone's ego it's very rare to find someone who is so like, you know, intellectually consistent that they can't help but say you've made a good point and I agree with you it's just it doesn't happen and most of them are actually us. We're good at that. Like we're good at I mean, so many libertarians are like, well, what brought you here? Someone asked me a question. I didn't have a good answer for it. So I did some research and now I'm a libertarian. That is very, very, very awesome. Yeah, but that's not normal. Most people are not going to take the time, they're gonna find some excuse, they're gonna bury it cognitively and they're just gonna think you're a schmuck you know, like it they're not going to do that so the you know, in everyday parlance, if you don't have like a specific metric you're not trying to get signatures you're not trying to get you're just having conversations with people I think it's you can see the cues when someone is is is you know, their gears are turning and they're realizing it and it'll be things like you know, different markers for that or things like that's a good point I didn't think of it like that oh you know they'll they'll say stuff like oh dammit you did it again like stuff like that where it's like you realize that you're you're you're getting to them and you can be playful about it like you know when I when I'm you know convincing someone on liberty and they'll go and I'll go I got you again Did not you know like make it like kind of a funny thing like you know, you know like make a fake scoreboard and stuff like that and and you know, they'll say something and I'll go well here's how you just prove me right like you're gonna have fun with it but yeah, I think unless you have a specific metric it's hard to have like an actual like, because it's rare for them to go you're right I'm a libertarian now I guess that would be the ultimate close but really long before that you're gonna have a bunch of little closings of people saying well that was a good point. Yeah, I don't

Jeremy Todd  
know No, that's great it one of the things that's become untrained is trial closes it there's people love trial closes just people who hate trial closes but that's really all we've got in politics is is these small series of trial closes along the way to say that makes sense. And in, in, in an age of social media, it could be as little as somebody liking a post that never liked your posts before. Right? You know, okay, this is starting to get a little traction, and, and they're watching and they're observing. So, um, this this is awesome. If we don't stop I'm gonna do this all night. I love to talk shop. Um, let's get you got some time for some q&a.

Spike Cohen  
Yeah, let's do it. Let's

Jeremy Todd  
do it. All right.

Spike Cohen  
got all these great transitions. Hello.

Unknown Speaker  
I'm sorry, I don't exactly know what I'm doing. So I'm trying to make this possible behind the scenes here. I'm trying to do my best. So thank you. So are you spiker, you're the best really thank you so much for coming on the show. So I was gonna try to do the questions chronologically, because I think that's the most fair. So one of the first questions that came in was, where did your sales journey begin?

Spike Cohen  
So that was sort of my sales journey, began doing the bussing tables for the oyster bar. That was like the first time I realized that that was, you know, where it was important to network and to sell people on myself, even though I wasn't really actually selling anything. I wasn't the waitstaff that was trying to talk them into, you know, getting more stuff, although I'd occasionally go in and try to upsell them on things kind of subtly, but it was more I was selling myself to the waitstaff that made them like More asked me to do more things and tip me out more. And then you know, it began truly in earnest when I started my web design company because I was essentially I was the salesperson as well as the person doing the work I was I was doing everything so that's it started in my teens.

Unknown Speaker  
It's really interesting that you didn't necessarily start sales in a traditional manner of actually selling things and you're more selling yourself. So I think that's really

Jeremy Todd  
say the line spike, say, say it. Everything is sales.

Spike Cohen  
Yes, everything is Yeah, no everything, everything. every interaction you make is you trying to bring yourself and your point across to the other person, even in the most subtle of ways. And when you re This is why and I mean, you started the Carnegie caucus, or Carnegie caucus, is it but I'm constantly vacillate between saying Carnegie and Carnegie?

Jeremy Todd  
I, I don't know I'm from Alabama so it's Carnegie or something.

Spike Cohen  
But so you know, you start you know how to win friends and influence people you read that now everything sales, you just that's your brain is sales constantly.

Unknown Speaker  
So our next question was from Benjamin galley. And they said, I've lived in southwest Georgia my whole life. Through this past election, most of my Trump train Republicans have the similar view that libertarians Ain't nothing but a bunch of liberals and anti FAS, what are your thoughts on those types of uninformed people?

Spike Cohen  
Well, first of all, you're not going to get everyone. And there are some people that they've got to use, they've got to scapegoat you. The first thing I'd ask them is, you know, when you talk to people, and they're more mad at you than the Democrats, or a democrat who's more mad at you than the Republican, one of my fun things, I like to do this, me being snarky, I'll say, you know, what is it that you're angry about at me about these while you're, you know, you waste your vote? And what, and I'll say something like, you notice that you're more upset at me than you are at the democrats like that, at best, our our vote covered the spread, but they're the ones who voted against this. Why do you think you're more mad at me? Do you think maybe you've been conditioned not to get mad at the people that are actually voting against you, but the people who are not staying with the one two system, the two party system, and I've gotten a few people on that, because there'll be so angry at me, you know, you're the reason especially in Georgia, where the people that voted Democrat, actually, that's one of the states where Joe and I covered the spread, even though that's not how that works. But even the number of votes that Joe and I got was more than the margin between Trump and Biden. They were angry, angry, when I would talk to people in Georgia, and I'd say, why are you more mad at me than all those people that voted democrat? Is it because they you've been conditioned that you either vote Republican or Democrat, and that that sometimes is very helpful and kind of make making them step back and realize, wait a second, why am I more angry at this guy who wants less government than a bunch of Democrats? Maybe Maybe it's maybe I'm the body or maybe the people that are telling me that way? You know, maybe maybe they're conditioning me to like to be okay with Democrats, but not with anyone who doesn't toe the line. Stockholm Syndrome pretty much yeah. So

Jeremy Todd  
can I interject? I know that the q&a for spike but that this is a rule that I learned early on, and you guys will learn a little bit about me and my journey. I my first sales job now that I think about it was actually bussing tables, but my first job where the title said, Yeah, right, my first job where the title said sales, I sold Cutco kitchen knives for five years and an office did did the whole thing. And we're gonna have a lot of guests from that world just because they're there. They're awesome and excited and all that. But when you have cognitive sort of predispositions and you you can make, you can make evaluations on the fly. One of the things that we learned was the 10 8010 rule. And that is that 10% of people always buy like this, your grandma, you could do the worst sales pitch of all time, and they're going to buy from you. Yep, 10% of people, no matter what you do, are never gonna buy. They, they are gonna we call them engineers, and I'm just kidding. But 10% of people don't 10% of people don't buy, it just is what it is. You didn't do anything wrong, you can deliver it perfectly. You can do everything spike just said. And 10% of people are gonna say Nope, not for me. We really only have influence over about 80%, four out of five, it's going to be determined by what we do. So know when it's the 10% and know when it's the 80% and don't let yourself get discouraged. Because you're talking to Trump train people and you go man, I just can't seem to win them over. Oh, maybe that's not the right market. And so think through that and don't get that that's the big key behind the 10 8010 rule is don't get too high because grandma bought $1,000 worth of knives and don't get too low because grandma's friend said you're not allowed to ever speak to her again. It's 80% in the middle that really determine how effective you are.

Spike Cohen  
And generally speaking, is outside of politics. The Cutco knives are someone trying to sell Cutco knives? I disproportionately high number of that 10% that will never ever say yes are libertarians, there are people that are inherently going to say no as their first, second and third response. And if you have even a shot, it's you have to literally logically convince them that this is the best thing that they could possibly do. And they're not going to do it. Now imagine if that 10% the ones who always say no are now tasked with selling stuff to everyone else. That's the problem we face is the know people are now being told you got to go and convince the rest of the world of this they're like no, I don't like I don't want convinced no one can convince me of anything. What am I going to do? And it's because that libertarians tend to be more cerebral on things and not look at things from you can't get people on emotion and they can't get you on emotion. But the reality is most people you have to get them in a visceral level you have to get them on an emotional level they have to like you and then from there they can they can let you in and start listening to your ideas. So that's why we're different. we're wired different typically not always, but we're typically wired different. Our ideas come from our you know, very robust research into something we don't care what our social circle thing some of us don't even have social circles and much and much less do we care what they think and so we're just we're having to thread a different needle than literally everyone else. So that's I'm glad that you brought that up because we're that we're the hard sell people now having to go and sell to people.

Unknown Speaker  
That's a great point. So our next question comes in from Josh Terry and they said what do you think about section 230?

Spike Cohen  
sec section 230 is I love watching people say that it's both the best thing on earth and the worst thing on earth I often find that the people who say these things, hyperbolic things they usually typically have never actually read section 230 So long story short section 230 simply says it is a it is an amendment or a section in the US code of laws that essentially says that a website is not responsible for the content that someone else puts on their website so if you are e Bay and someone puts a you know put something for sale that's illegal or or something like that, then eBay is not responsible for the fact that that was illegal thing like so you know if you know people that are selling, you know, stuff that was meant to be all packaged together but they're selling them individually package eBay can't be responsible for that. for social media. What that means is Facebook can't be sued because you put something up that was defamatory, they can't be sued because you are held criminally liable because you put up a you know, some some pictures of drugs and people contacted you to buy the drugs. If we get rid of Section 230 then prepare yourself for an internet made of websites that can get sued for everything you do. I assure you that section 230 is not what people on the conservative side have sold it as it ain't section 230 is it and other regulations and and and clarifications of law like it are the reason that you are able to have any kind of a free free experience on the internet any kind of and when I say free I don't mean free of charge. I mean like a Liberty based experience a free exchange of ideas. If Facebook suddenly can be sued for what you do prepare yourself to only be able to put up pictures of dogs that have you know been approved or have been shown to already be spayed neutered, and and you know, not be a breed that offends some people like I can't even rescue some imagine. And also Yes, exactly. And also make sure that it makes sure that those websites are all big because they all have armies of attorneys to fight off any potential liability. You'll notice that Facebook after Francis Hogan, the fake whistleblower, started calling for regulations, Facebook immediately came out and said yes, we would welcome some some amending of Section 230 and more regulations on us because they know that it will destroy their smaller competition. There will never be a new Facebook because no one can afford the millions or billions of dollars in compliance costs to make sure that they have the army of attorneys in place to make sure they haven't violated any regulation or that anything that's being put on their platform isn't potentially violating something. So Section 230 is far more good than harm and and and the people that want to amend it I assure you they don't have your your interests at heart.

Unknown Speaker  
Next question is another one from Benjamin galley. They said, Do you think libertarians would do better through election cycles? If Republicans didn't just hear the lib part and ignore everything after that and automatically lump us in with liberals?

Spike Cohen  
I don't I don't know because I don't really hear that a lot. I'll care apparent occasionally hear people that'll say, Oh, is that like liberal? But it's it's not all that common? I think that libertarian sound sufficiently different from liberal that I don't think that's a overwhelming thing. Is there? Is there some people that are going to hear that and go, Oh, you're a liberal. I think they fall into Jeremy's 10% that, you know, it was going to be something you said if the if right law was enough for them to go off or liberal, then well, then you're good.

Jeremy Todd  
I'll tell you an interesting story on this though. We were in Tombstone, okay. And Steve Remus was working the table, he was a candidate for governor at the time, and a very, you know, trumpian masculine individual walked up and goes, now I don't want nothing to do with liberals. And I go, Wait a minute, read it again. And then introduce and deceive. And by the end of the, you know, 10 minute conversation where we go, we're better than Republicans on guns. We're better than Republicans on money. We're better than Republicans on everything that Republicans care about. We're we're, we attacked, he attacked the right from the right. And that gentlemen registered as libertarian by the

Spike Cohen  
so? Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't think someone who truly would walk away because it's got Li B in it. I think they fall in that 10%. for other people. It might like Jeremy just said it might actually open a conversation. Keep in mind, people like liberty, we've heard Liberty a lot. And and we're told to like liberty, ironically by people who are trying to infringe on our liberty, but it's something that's caught What is it? We heard growing up freedom, liberty, independence, freedom, liberty, independence, and we're young and we don't even know what freedom liberty or independence are. We become adults who also don't know what freedom liberty and independence are. We're often told that it's the opposite is that sort of Orwellian way of telling us that freedom, liberty and independence are the exact opposite of what they actually are. But we like the words. So I don't I don't think that the word libertarian is, is hurting us too much. But I again, it might even open a conversation, like Jeremy said, but like I said, I think someone who hears that and goes, No, I don't want to hear anything else. You think they were it was gonna be something you were gonna say something they

Jeremy Todd  
weren't going to like? Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  
Yeah, absolutely. So next question I have is from Aiden Curran. And they want to know, do you think what is happening in Australia will happen here? The author, the author, authoritarianism, gosh, it's scary.

Spike Cohen  
Do I think it'll happen here, if we allow the creeping growth of government to continue? Yes, it will eventually happen here. It might not take COVID it might not happen during COVID. It'll happen during the next thing. And I got news for everyone, climate change is next. So if another pandemic and hopefully another pandemic doesn't come, if another disease doesn't come, or this disease doesn't worsen, or something like that, the next thing is going to be climate change. And the proof of that is that if you say that too loudly right now, they will block you and in fact, check you to death, which means that that's coming next. The The next thing will be, well, if you look at the numbers of dead from COVID, it's nowhere near as high as the number of people that are dying from flooding and disease, and, you know, and or, you know, seasonal diseases and, and, and, you know, that are dying from environmental factors. They're, you know, dying from air pollution and all this stuff. The drumbeat of of climate change is killing us by the millions, and we have to do something that will be next. And I think we will watch it happen in other countries a few years before us, and we'll go My God, what a terrible thing. And a very small minority of Americans have a we need that here. And that small minority of Americans will get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until it's happening here. And first, it'll start with Well, these are just temporary measures until we can get climate change under control. And then they it won't be they'll just continue it will get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. The short answer Do you think Governor to do you think government will eventually do something if you let it? Yes. And it's why every hill is a hill to fight on. Because it's that's not the final Hill. That's it's not a hill. It's a step to the next step to the next step. To the next step to the next step. And it's why like if I thought that all of the things happening right now we're just all temporary things that were going to go away that I you know, I would still say they were wrong, but it wouldn't be as visceral of a fight as it is because we just know that they're just creating the pretext for the next control and the next control and the next control. So yeah, no, it's absolutely coming here. It is absolutely coming here. And and it's it will if the only way we can stop it from coming here is bringing more people to our side and getting enough people to resist this stuff to make it where it's not the cost benefit analysis for them is that it's not we're trying to push on us.

Jeremy Todd  
Exactly. Lauren, let's do let's take Sam's question Josh was question and then baxton second question and then we'll we'll complete with the q&a.

Unknown Speaker  
Roger that. Okay, so we have from Sam Rutledge. What do you reply to the argument of getting government out of health care relieve behind leave the disabled behind? I never seem to have a good response.

Spike Cohen  
Well, the government is why health care so unaffordable, and why there's so many problems with access to healthcare. I think that there are many libertarians and many people who want government out of health care who they recognize that you know, so I hear this very often from libertarians who will say, you know, it's not my responsibility to pay for your health care and that's true, but they're missing a bigger point there. It's not just that it's not our responsibility, that system that regime that's been set up makes it more expensive for everyone including and especially the person who supposedly needed it in the first place. So I focus on this on that aspect because if I go up to the average person and say I don't give a damn about how you pay for your health care that's under my responsibility. They go well I don't care about your opinion and then we get mad we How dare you not you don't realize that I'm right. You just told me you didn't give a shit about them. Why should they care about you? Right? So one of the one of the biggest, you know, or should be one of the biggest mantras in the world of sales is no one cares what you know, until they know that you care if you straight up tell them I don't care about you. It's not my responsibility, you've already lost them. So and I'm not saying that that Sam the person who asked this is doing that what I'm saying is that's happened a lot to that person already. When they're talking about when they're talking about healthcare, they hear from a lot of people go not my responsibility. I don't do that I say listen, the cost of health care is ridiculous in this country and it's getting worse and worse and worse for the poor for the disabled for those who need it the most. And the reason it's getting expensive is because of certificate of need laws and I explained that patent protections for Big Pharma band and the accompanying bans on generic imports to protect Big Pharma which by the way is very helpful right now because everyone's forgetting that big pharma who is you know, pushing these vaccines in the mandates are those same Big Pharma people that your grandma died early or your your chronically ill friend died because they couldn't afford the cost of of their drugs that they couldn't get. Um, but you know, I talked about cost plus legislation that drives up the cost health care, I talked about all these different things. I talked about the the red tape in the insurance system, that how health insurance was only created in reaction to FDR, his proposed wage caps during World War Two, let's talk about these things and how government is driven up the cost and then say, let's just get all that out and make government make the cost of health care much more affordable, then we can figure out who pays for it. Yeah, yeah, let's figure out after we get government out of it, and when you're having that conversation, you drive home that it was government that made it expensive to begin with?

Jeremy Todd  
Yes, exactly. I'll give you I'll give you a great example. I have a unique perspective on this. My wife for Well, once you guys will know and learn. She's a veterinarian, and okay. So she went through eight years of school, she had to specialize in multiple species. It costs just as much as med school, she she has just as much training all of that other, you know, sort of stuff. But one day I cornered her and I go, Okay, I want you to start giving me some info here. Because they're in so I asked her about a couple procedures. And one that really stuck out for me was a hip replacement. So in the United States of America, if you want to have a hip replaced, it's gonna cost if you were to just do it in cash, it's gonna run in the neighborhood of $80,000. That's between your contribution and the it could be as low as 60,000. But that's going to be between you, your insurance company in all of that. So a 60 to $80,000 to replace your hip with a with a piece of metal in a ball and joint There are markets to fly. American surgeons trained down to Mexico, where the regulations are different. And it costs in the neighborhood of about $15,000. veterinarians in America can perform a hip replacement on your dog for $5,000. Now, you may say, Oh, well, that's lower level of care, I can assure you it's not. They have to go through the same level of things. And they buy the hips from the same manufacturer. Yep. Right? Yep. But the difference is, you can only pay veterinarians in cash. You. So if hip replacements in your dog cost $80,000, what would happen? You would just kill your dog, you would just put it down sorry to be cleared out, right? But if it's five, they that what has happened is because cash is the only you paying for it is the only available means the prices come backwards to meet the market. Yep. But when you have all these intermediaries, and you don't get to pay attention, and you get to split it up over 30 months, or you know, whatever, okay? 80,000 seems like okay, maybe that makes sense. But it doesn't. And all getting government in healthcare is going to do is change 80 to 160. And then the taxpayers are gonna pay for it, when we should be focused on bringing it down to 5000. And then figure out how to pay for it.

Spike Cohen  
Yep, yeah, it is a you've literally are eliminating the price equilibrium, which is what drives that's what regulates pricing in a free market is the price equilibrium and competition. So what does government do? They create all these subsidies to eliminate the price equilibrium. And then they create all these regulations to eliminate the competition and wonder of wonders, suddenly, the cost of everything goes through the roof, the health care, housing, higher education, it's all the same thing, regulation and in destroy price signaling, and suddenly the cost goes through the roof.

Unknown Speaker  
So our next question comes from Joshua Alexander. And they said, What will it take for libertarian candidates to be able to be a part of the presidential debates? It seems the mainstream media will never cover the principles of libertarianism.

Spike Cohen  
Yeah, so we need to stop worrying about that. So no, they're not, they're not going to give us the access to polling that we need to get 15% to get on the debate stage. It's not this. And first of all, we have to completely and I'm glad you brought this up, Joshua, we need to completely retool what our focus is, we believe as libertarians, that the way that movements and organizations and businesses and organizations that are valid and proper, the way that they grow, is they happen out of a market demand out of a need from the market for something and they grow locally and in a decentralized way with people that are working together on a voluntary basis. And to whatever extent it is needed in the market, it grows into and rises in voluntary human action in this sort of, you know, we call it spontaneous action, you know, in this is this sort of spontaneous order that happens from people meeting the needs of the market, and it might grow to this very big thing because the market needs it. And it'll grow to whatever the market needs, and to what people want in a voluntary way from the bottom up. And then in the party, we wait for a strong man who is going to come around and force them onto the debate stage where they're going to trick everyone to vote libertarian, and then they're going to get into the White House, and they're going to trickle down Liberty on all of us. It's literally the opposite of what we think how things go. And incidentally, it's never going to happen. It is we are never going to have a presidential candidate get on the debate stage until we've already risen to the level where we're reliably getting congressional candidates and senatorial candidates and gubernatorial candidates and so forth, elected or at least getting close to being elected. And that's never going to happen until we are routinely and reliably getting people elected to state legislative offices, Big City Mayors, that level of government. And that's never going to happen until we've taken over at the bottom level. And that's never going to happen until we've made the cultural changes so that the majority of people or at least a growing number of people want liberty and recognize it's the best way so instead of talking about how do we get on the debate stage, let's talk about how we can get 1000 libertarians elected to city council because that has to happen before we can have the next step to the next step to the next step to the next step which is eventually to debate stage and winning the election. It's there is no Hail Mary pass to get on the debate stage. It's not going it's not

Jeremy Todd  
you know it the only thing I would add is it an old adage in sales each one teach one. We can't rely on the mainstream media to cover are ideas ever marketed for us, they're never going to do that. These have to be dinner table conversations. If every single one of us were able to get one person, one person a year to change their mind, one person, we, what did we have vote in in spike, you know, let's call it 2%. We double that in 2022, that's 4%. With each one, teach one, we double that, that's 8%. These have to be one on one personal small level conversations, then we start getting the wins coach in I know, we just lost, it's okay. It has to happen at once every two years. But Coach Saban talks about, you don't focus on winning the game, you focus on what you need to do in order to win the game. And so don't look at it. So it spike is right. When we as libertarians look at our presidential campaign, that presidential campaign is simply nothing more than our best marketing opportunity. It's, we're not gonna win, okay, let it go. It's okay. But what we are doing is putting the message in front of people, that has to be the forefront, we have to redefine what our wins are. And when you can redefine what your wins are, then it doesn't feel like a loss and a defeat every single time. Because we've re established these markers. And when you redefine your wins, and you start to look locally, we are winning, we are growing, but for you, what you personally as an individual can control is what is your circle of friends belief? Are they closer to Liberty than they were six months ago? Those five or six people you interact with on a daily basis? Are they closer to Liberty than they were six months ago? If the answer is yes, you are winning. And if everybody does that we will win.

Spike Cohen  
Absolutely. The one thing I want to add to that is the fact that a candidate does isn't going to win is not an excuse not to run to win. Last year, I ran to win. I knew I knew our odds were basically zero that we were going to win. But I still ran the same campaign, I would rent run, if I was within two points of winning the election that was always in my head, pretend that you were so close to winning the election, you just got to keep nailing it, and you'll be able to win it you have to run to win, we get a lot of people that they want to run for senate and governor and and President they want to run for these top level things. And they want to run on saying you know, I'm not going to win this thing. I just want to get the message out there. No one is very few people are going to be inspired by that. The way that you use a run for office to be able to bring people in as you run people who are running to win and who looked like someone and I don't mean physically look, but who in their in their experience in their knowledge and how they present it. They look like someone someone would actually want to be whatever that role is President governor, Senator, whatever, and that that person is then using that to bring people into liberty. So you always run to win with a candidate who is someone you and others would want to win. But you have to recognize that those high level races right now they're about marketing are real, and we need to stop focusing on them as our leaders, you know, I'm constantly getting a spike, are you running in 2024? And I tell them, you know, I say Listen, I don't I don't know if I'm running and they'll say spike, your only hope? And I'm like, No, no, no, I'm not not only am I not your only hope, but I'm not your hope. No one that is running that is even being considered for running for that is your hope. Your hope is probably you running for like town council or water district, county council or city council or whatever, and actually building a foothold of people that when someone tells me I'm going around the country and they tell me libertarians can't win I go No, look at Jeremy. Look at bill. Look at Lauren. Look at whoever look at Joshua, they won for this race and look what they were able to do in just that small race. Look what they were able to do when they got elected. Now imagine what happens if we get all the way to the White House. That's how we close that deal.

Unknown Speaker  
Yes, yes. 1,000% and the first time I met you was in Tempe on your on your tour. And yes, you were in it to win it and you just such an inspiration. Alright, so

Spike Cohen  
many degrees. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  
yes. You will not let us forget that dz

Spike Cohen  
120 and it was Oh, it's a dry heat. Yes, it is a hairdryer? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  
Yeah. Yeah. Like when you open an oven. Yes, yes. Oh,

Jeremy Todd  
isn't it? Yeah.

Spike Cohen  
I've been on hairdryer. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  
So our last question comes in from Braxton Stagg. And they want to know, do you think the voting system in our country is still viable? Considering all the rampant cheating the dems polled in this last election,

Spike Cohen  
Democrats and Republicans have been cheating on not just the the vote counts, but on even just who's allowed on the ballot since the late 1800s. And it has at times gotten better at times gotten worse. This speaks to a question of is it even worth getting involved in electoral politics, this also by the way, Another reason why we need to be focusing locally because long before the people in charge are going to allow a libertarian to legitimately win the White House, it's going to take us taking over the cities, the counties, the states and working our way up to there so that by the time we're making a serious run there, there's just as many libertarians on those election boards as there are Republicans or Democrats, there's just as many libertarians appointed as judges that overlook the ballot access requirements. We've already been working to tear down those ridiculous ballot access requirements and live leveling the playing field for everyone. There is no path to it would be like if there were a movie about someone you know, imagine if in Braveheart, the way that you know, the way that Braveheart one was he just walked up to the king and stabbed him to death and said there were done. I've read the Scotland is free. We did it was too much, they have too much in place to stop that from happening. Well, the same is true here. They're not just going to let us saunter onto the debate stage and then saunter into the Rose Garden to give our opening our inaugural speech, like it's not going to happen, that you're going to have to work to tear down everything that they have built. And as you tear it down. And as people see their lives improving in ways large and small, everyday as a direct result of them being more free, it's just going to steamroll its way all the way to us eventually taken over the whole thing, and hopefully dismantling it for good.

Jeremy Todd  
Absolutely. And and to add on to that there. I believe personally, alternative voting choices are the future that libertarians can win. We just met with voter choice AZ and rank choice voting, and there are some other alternatives out there. But the reality is the people in why would the people in charge change? Why would they allow us to do that? There should no reason right? Because we don't hold any offices we are electorate doesn't have any influence. We have to change the people around us so that we can demand these things. And then or do a Shane Hazel, you think Georgia might be considering a rank choice voting a little harder than they were a year ago? Go spoil an election, right? It potentially these are the paths forward for us. But we have to shake the branches of this thing. In order to get those things done. They're not going to voluntarily give us anything. We got to go earn it. Yep, exactly. All right, time for final thoughts.

So spike, if you had to give us a summary on selling Liberty wrap, wrap this, it, put it in a neat little bow for us, and then I'll conclude the show for everybody.

Spike Cohen  
So I I'm a little angry at you because this is really my you already kind of gave my final thoughts. So I'm just gonna say it as pretty as I can say it, because you already got your good job. You know, a lot of people when they say how can I sell liberty, right? And I'll even when I after I share content from sell Liberty, and they're like, but I don't do sales. And I'm like, Yeah, not everyone is going to be a salesperson. But can you get one person? Can you in someone in your social circles and not target them and try to like, you know, make them uncomfortable? But can you just someone that you have, you know, political conversations with Can you try to retool how you talk to them so that eventually they come over to your side or maybe you've already been doing that you've already been working kind of slowly converting someone, you know, it could be your your, you know, intimate partner, it could be your, you know, a friend, it could be someone in your family, or a co worker, whatever, someone that you, you know, ride the bus with whatever, someone that you're in regular contact with, you know, if you get one person, you just did your part to double the movement. Because if everyone did that, we double the movement. So right there, if you can get one person, then you've doubled the movement. And that doesn't mean go out tomorrow and say, Hey, I'm going to convince you to be a libertarian, no, use, the way that you can bring people into the movement. And just, if you do that, if you focus on, if you focus on trying to get one person in that it's probably less likely that you're doing things that are pushing everyone away from the movement. So yeah, just focus on that. If you're not a natural at sales, if that's not really your mo to go and talk to a bunch of people or whatever, just see if you can do one person, if you can get one person. And if that works, then just start using that same approach with everyone, not even with the goal of trying to bring them bring them in, but just with the goal of being someone that's more approachable, that people wanted to hang out with more and talk to more, and you'll probably find that you can get a lot more than one person.

Jeremy Todd  
Yeah, and one person, let's not lose sight of this. One person may not win elections, but one person matters. Like you've just changed their life. You've changed the way they see the world. And that's Powerful, that means a lot. And having empathy for other people is kind of what I want to finish on you discuss it. All of our ideas are ineffective if we don't have empathy. So I'm gonna look forward a little bit to next week. The most powerful thing we can do is show up and just be there for other people and strangers just like you were in Kentucky. I think it mattered that you came and spoke at the City Council and your butt showing up is is the first thing so when friends and family around you need you show up six months ago, for me personally, I became a dad for the very first time. It is the most amazing experience in life. I joked about people who, who said it, and I don't know. It was different. And when I had my son, I was very fortunate enough that he was healthy, mom was healthy, no complications, everything went great. Next week for you guys. We are bringing on a gentleman by the name of Mike Abramowitz, his son and my son were basically at that same gestation, but his son was born at 25 weeks, I think it was around 25 weeks, four months early, basically a little over half term. And so they've been on a massive journey with their family. And I'm excited to learn the things that he's learned from fatherhood. And somebody in our movement recently went through something similar. Over the last year, I've gotten to know Dave Smith, as I know you have to spike. Their family just welcomed a new baby boy into the world. And they found out a few weeks before the birth, or a few months before the birth potentially, that it had some some heart defects. And I just remember and so his son was born. And the moment he came out, his his child had to have basically open heart surgery. I remember looking at my tiny little guy that I could hold in the palm of my hand, and I can't imagine what a family has to go through to put their child under the knife and count on the stranger to open his heart, fix it and solve it. So what Mike and Dave have experienced is something that is not unfortunately unique. A lot of parents go through this. And so as a community, and as libertarians and we believe in voluntary action, it's our turn to take an opportunity to support that so my special announcement is this not only do we have Mike Abramowitz coming on next week and you should go check him out on Facebook, but um Dave and his wife named their son Victor and I felt that was just awesome right because you know he's gonna be victorious over this this heart defect and his his battle and so I you know, we should be thinking about what positives Can we turn out of this and so Lauren if you'll share if you head over to proud libertarians calm starting tonight, you can get a fight like Victor onesy and all or a fight like Victor t shirt, and all of the proceeds are gonna go to St. Jude's Children's Hospital and in Memphis to help other parents who are going through that so let's show some love and support to the to our liberty family and help some folks out but yeah, go check that out proud libertarian.com spike you got any plugs?

Spike Cohen  
A follow me and spike Cohen calm and all my social media. My my podcasts are all on muddied waters media. We're on all social media platforms. We're on all podcasting platforms, and we're on Muddy Waters. media.com I'm not hard to find. If you look for Miko, and you'll you'll find me pretty easily. I'm on Facebook, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter, I'm on tik tok with the kids. And and I now have a tick tock team. Finally. So I'm actually going to do stuff on Tick tock, I'm not going to just say I picked on actually I'm going to do things like Tick tock, tick tock scares me. But yeah, if you want to follow me, I'm spike Cohen. And if you want to follow my shows, the muddy waters of freedom and my fellow Americans there, we're on Muddy Waters media, and you can find that everywhere as well. And yeah, thank you for having me.

Jeremy Todd  
Awesome. Well, thanks, Mike, for coming on. This has been incredible. I hope you've enjoyed as much as I have. Thanks for tuning in everybody. See you next week.

Brian  
Thanks for listening to The Brian Nichols Show. Fun more episodes at The Brian Nichols show.com. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. Want to help us reach more people? Give the show a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe to find us at Brian Nichols show.com and download the show on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow me on social Media at V. Nichols liberty and consider donating to the show at Brian Nichols show.com. forward slash support. The Brian Nichols Show is supported by viewers like you. Thank you to our patrons Darryl Schmitz, Laura Stanley, Michael Lima, Michel Mankiewicz, Cody John's, Craig Acosta, and the we're libertarians network. Trust the experts we're all in this together it saves one life. Raise your hand if you've heard any of those tiresome phrases over the past year and a half. I know my hand is currently raised millions of people across dozens of industries were labeled on essential and forced the lockdown with livelihoods and futures crushed in an instant and as government has continued to expand its power and leverage fear to turn neighbor against neighbor a group of filmmakers have taken a stand and are determined to help set the record straight on the importance of following the actual science of the pandemic follow the science on lockdowns and liberty from the sound mind create a group is a brand new docu series highlighting the stories of those negatively impacted over the past year and a half by ineffective government policies enacted in the name of following the science with noted experts like Nick Hudson from panda the pandemic data analytics organization healthcare policy advisors like Scott Atlas and telling stories of business owners families and just your average everyday person harmed by these government mandates follow the science on lock downs and liberty has given us a chance to make sure the true stories of the pandemic are cool, so please help us at the Brian show in supporting the sound mind creative group with notable figures in the Liberty movement like Dr. Tom Woods donating 1000s of their own dollars to this project. You know just how important this project is so head The Brian Nichols show.com forward slash follow the science to donate and catch their brand new trailer to the docu series one more time. That's Brian Nichols Show calm for slash follow the science.

Unknown Speaker  
Now libertarian podcasts are usually focused on the philosophy of libertarianism. Our podcast upward libertarian activism provides tips and strategies to help move more people towards the top of the diamond have the world's smallest political quiz. We haven't taken that go to the advocates.org and check it out. We are libertarians presents training sessions and special podcast to teach the basics of running for office, county party organization and other forms of libertarian activism. Now early episodes include training workshops put together by me Chris spangle, and the Libertarian Party of Indiana and newer episodes are from the archives of Marshall Fritz of the advocates for self government who is a master trainer for libertarians so get our training manuals and the podcast at our website upward political training.com

Unknown Speaker  
check out the boss hog Liberty podcast on the we're libertarians network, Jeremiah Morell, Dakota Davis and a rotating cast of guests host join you every week from our beautiful Henry County, Indiana studio. We talk national, statewide and local politics, sports, pop culture and everything we find interesting guests from state senators, economists, authors, comedians and your local fools. catch us live on Facebook or in your iTunes feed.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai