464: The Blue Divide: Policing and Race in America (with Will Moravits, PhD)

Brian Nichols  
faced with an uncertain future many business owners and technology professionals don't have time needed to invest in their business technology strategies and as a result are afraid of their technology getting outdated and putting their company and customers information at risk. The digital future is already here. But with all different choices in the marketplace, it's difficult to know which one will be the best fit for you and your strategic vision. Imagine having the peace of mind that your business is backed by the right technology investments that are tailored for your specific needs. Hi, I'm Brian Nichols and I've helped countless business owners and technology professionals just like you helping you make informed decisions about what technologies are best to invest in for your business. Voice bandwidth, cybersecurity, business continuity, juggling all the aspects of business technology is messy. Let me help at the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash help and sign up for a free one on one consultation with yours truly to dig deep into where you see your company headed and how we can align your business technology towards those goals. Again, that's the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash help to get your simplified business technology started today. Instead of focusing on winning arguments, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics, teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Well, happy Friday there, folks, Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show in thank you for joining us on of course, another fun filled episode. I am as always your humble host. And today, we're gonna be talking about policing in America as it pertains to race. Got this blue divide that's out there and talking about that will more events. He's joined the program. Well, welcome to The Brian Nichols Show.

Will Moravits  
Hello, hello. Good to be here. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Well,

Brian Nichols  
thank you so much for joining us. And you're here to talk about a very important issue that we're all facing right now in America. And it has been really growing over the past few years. And we saw this with the the deaths of Breanna Taylor, George Floyd, the list seemingly just kept getting longer and longer and longer. And it's gotten to the point where I think your average person has in fact woken up that there is maybe a little bit of a disconnect between policing in America and race in America. So you wrote a brand new book, The Blue divide, policing and race in America. And you're joining us today to dig into that. But before we get there, well, let's do a quick introduction to The Brian Nichols Show audience who are you and what got you into this world of policing and race?

Will Moravits  
Well, I am a political science professor for St. Philip's College, taught at Texas State University previously, as well. But quite a while ago, in my 20s, I spent a few years as a police officer in San Marcos, Texas. And so I've always been intrigued by the subject and you know, aware of the perception of police that, you know, they're there, they might be biased one way or, you know, against African Americans in particular. But about eight years ago, I started to really look into this particular subject was after the death of Eric Garner, and then Michael Brown, both in 2014. And that's when the Black Lives Matter movement really hit the national consciousness. And I followed all these different things. And then after George Lloyd was murdered in 2020, the rhetoric around policing and defunding the police and, you know, abolish the police, by some people, and just as anti cop rhetoric, you know, I thought something somebody needs to do something about this. And so I thought, why not me, you know, so because reality is I think the the narrative of policing and race is patently false. The police target black people, especially a deadly force situations. And so so I wanted to kind of bring some of the stuff I teach in my class to to the rest of America, which is a very brief Crash Course and to police training, what the law is, what the what the philosophical underpinnings of that training is, so that people get a better understanding of what it's like to be a cop and what what things that they have to think of and, you know, take any consideration whenever they encounter somebody as part of their job. Then I go straight through you mentioned brown Taylor, George Floyd, I go straight from from Eric Garner, all the way through. See the last one, I think that's included. I've been mkhaya Bryant, who course was shot and killed the day that Derek Shogun was found guilty of murdering George Floyd. And I kind of explain the law and use of force and how it pertains and the vast majority of them so you know, these you may disagree that these people should not have been killed, but legally, they're justified, you know, there's only one that was not legally justified. I was George Floyd. There was another one that you know, a couple other ones that you know, based on training or maybe mistakes made, you know, might have changed the outcome. But by and large, these police are doing what they were trained to do and what the law requires of them. And then I went in and did a lot of the, you know, the academic research and talked about what the data actually says on this topic, not what you see on the news, but with actual academic research, government reports and things of that nature. So I just threw all that, you know, kind of together so that the, you know, a reader could could pick up the book, it's not terribly long, it's about 190 pages. It's written in a very conversational style. It's easy to read. But I think it's really going to be helpful for people on both sides of this issue. So that people that are, you know, supportive of police, it's going to give them the information and the tools that they need to help better express why they support police. But on the other side, the people that that do not support police are the people that believe maybe they they personally support police, but they believe police are biased or racist or whatever, that they read this book, and, you know, maybe open up, you know, new ideas and, you know, hopefully make things better for everybody.

Brian Nichols  
Yeah, well, it's been tough, right? Because the past two years, especially, it's been pretty much divided into two camps, you either have your raise the fist Black Lives Matter, or you got the thin blue line flag, right. And there doesn't seem to be the ability for either side to talk to each other, it seems in many cases, we're talking past each other. And I think right there speaks to the importance of your book. And I mean, frankly, a lot of it, as you pointed out, rightfully, has been stoked up by the media. And this has been done in I would say, at least, since 2015. Really, with the Michael Brown case, when the the narrative that Hands up, don't shoot became a national, you know, cry, and then long story short find out, it ended up not being the case at all, when you go into what actually happened. And I think right there, and I would love to hear your perspective on this. But right there we see, one of the main problems is the fact that there is such a desire, and it seems to be targeted from a political purpose on behest of the media to bring these issues of policing and race to the American public, and really stoke up the the incensed anger towards our law enforcement. And now, are there examples where law enforcement has gone far too far, and they have used deadly force when was not necessary? Absolutely. And we will 100% of the time call those cases out. As a matter of fact, we have over 400 shows here in the program to go back and look through that. But it is important also to focus on the police officer. And you brought this up as well. In many cases, these these individuals, this is what they were trained to do. And number two, they I say it sounds so like dismissive, but they don't know better, if that makes sense. Because you're set into this one paradigm of this is the rules of engagement, if you will, as a law enforcement officer. And it's unfortunate, because you see a lot of these situations turn into use of deadly force, or when they do get to that use of deadly force, then the media comes in, and they try to frame it in as unflattering of a light as possible towards that member of law enforcement. So I think there's there's definitely a there's a instigation factor here being put at behest of the media. That's my, you know, me and my soapbox. Well, you're the one who wrote the book, what are your thoughts?

Will Moravits  
Well, I know I would agree. Firstly, backup is a little bit and let the listener viewer know that I am completely aware of the racist history of police in this country, especially in the south, you know, leading, you know, but what I'm talking about is policing really, since the 1990s, when community policing became became the norm, how you were trained. But you know, because of the past that Americans had with the civil rights movement, and Jim Crow laws, and just all of these different struggles that various groups have had to go through to gain their equal rights and what have you. I think because of that, the media understands that race sells. One of the things I point out in my book is the number of white people killed in almost exactly the same circumstances. There's a gentleman who I write about in that chapter who died almost exactly like George Floyd did. No one knows his name right now. I mean, it was on video it and he wasn't even a criminal like Floyd obviously was called because he broken the law. This guy was having a mental health breakdown and called 911 for help. adds up on his stomach and handcuffs, dead. Wow. You know, and so but the media doesn't care about that they don't talk about those issues. And they really all the times don't even talk about you know, black people that are killed, not by police. One of the cases it was right around all this time, a lot of these protests and stuff are going around going on. A couple years ago, a 10 year old girl named Jasmine Adams was was executed with her father, while they were in the drive thru line at McDonald's. There were no protests or no marches or no calls for justice. Because the person who killed them was another black person. It wasn't a cop, right? So, you know, I think the media understands, you know, that they, they want to get the the sensational headline out, they want to be first. And we as a society, I think are just so used to, you know, the the social media generation, right, we just kind of we hear Hands up, don't shoot, and we think, Oh, that's terrible. And then we never follow up and see where his hands really up, did he say Don't shoot, which, you know, if you read the Department of Justice Report, again, this is done by Eric Holder, President Obama's Attorney General, state of Missouri did a investigation, and they both found that his hands were not up. He was not saying don't shoot was actually charging the officer and had previously attempted to take the officer's gun. And this was relayed by multiple witnesses, many of whom are African American. To the media never put them on. On TV, the only person they put on TV was his friend, Dorian Johnson, who he said he had his hands up saying Don't shoot. And you're right. I remember the St. Louis Rams at the time of St. Louis Rams players came out with their hands up a whole panel on MSNBC did it one night, but you don't go backwards back and say, Oh, it turns out we were wrong. And it's led to this kind of jumping to conclusions. I mentioned the death of Mackay, Brian. A little bit earlier. And of course, she was killed. Again, right as Derek sjogrens verdict was being read. And no less than LeBron James, the most famous basketball player on earth. He tweets a picture of Officer Reardon that 23 year old officer who shot and killed Mackay O'Brien with a caption your next exclamation point, right? And he ended up deleting it saying well, you took it out of context. I was saying you're you're not gonna be the next one killed. But he was he I think he was kind of saying you're gonna be the next year showing right to go to prison. But the reality is, is you look at that incident, it was jumping to conclusions. Yeah, she was in the middle of trying to stab to death, another black girl. So one black girl was gonna die that day. It was either going to be Mackay O'Brien shot by the police or it was gonna be this person who's been violently assaulted. You know, so did her black life not matter, right? I mean, why why we focus in on Mackay O'Brien who literally, you know, pardon my French but said, I'm gonna fucking stab you. You know? That that's what he officer shows up. She's chasing somebody with a knife, yelling that and then starts to push her up against the car and about to stab her. What was he supposed to do? Just be like, wait a minute, who was it that called? You know, you don't have the time for that. And you know, and that particular incident? CNN, I'll give him credit. Dodd Levin and Chris Cuomo kind of said, you know, what else is a cop supposed to do in that situation? But then you had other people that were like, well, fire warning shot, shoot him in the hand, I think I forget which politician said why don't you shoot him in the hand. I'm like,

that's nearly impossible, especially in a high stress situation. And so people just don't understand what it's like out there. And that was another big reason why I wanted to write the book, it's kind of given them a little glimpse into, you know, what, what has to go through an officer's mind every time they encounter somebody who's resisting, but they have to factor into it. But yeah, the media, I think definitely makes it worse.

Brian Nichols  
So one thing you brought up there, and I'm sure this has been, you know, racing through the heads of the audience that they listened to that is, I think you're talking about Joe Biden, did he say, like, shoot him in the knee or something like that? Yeah,

Will Moravits  
I was pretty sure it was President Biden, I didn't want to say, you know, 100%, but Oh, Uncle

Brian Nichols  
Joe. But like there is that that instinctive desire for people to say, Well, what about the non violent or the less violent means and we've seen, especially in the advent of newer technologies, that there are tools out there that law enforcement can utilize that maybe aren't as black and white as using a gun and having the ramifications of using a gun is there and asking also, from your experience as a police officer? Do you see that with the newer technologies that maybe this is an area that we could start to go towards to eliminate a lot of these instances where black individuals are being shot by police officers and then having them pass away? But if we were to have a non violent mean, or not in violent by a less lethal means to subdue those individuals that make these media stories become null and void at the onset.

Will Moravits  
Yeah, well, you're you're on the right track. And I think there's again, these are some things you have to consider. You're I'm assuming you're referring to tasers.

Brian Nichols  
I'm tasers are out there. There's the beanbag, like shotgun beanbag things like there's so right. Yeah, like the laser. Can you use lasers now, like lightsabers almost going like Star Wars?

Will Moravits  
Wow. That'd be great. I mean, I wasn't around when I was a cop. But we did have tasers and you know, beanbag, shotguns, things of that nature. But what you have to understand so like, for example, if I was called on a situation that I thought might be physically harm dangerous to me or to a person, ideally, you would have your partner you know, your backup there with you, one of you would have a gun, one of you would have the taser, you would, you would want to shoot the Taser first. And to have the gun kind of as backup. A lot of times though, it's just one officer and there's not time to do these things. And so when you look at the taser, which is which is controversial and of itself, you know, mile police chief also has a PhD now, and he's a professor of criminal justice at the Texas State. And he's written several peer reviewed articles about the uses of tasers and things, but they have a bad rap too. But let me give you a for instance, example. Let's say I come across somebody, I get a call, there's a man with a knife. And he's about 1015 feet away from me, and I pull my Taser out. And he decides to charge me and I shoot. And let's say that I miss one of the problems. Well, that's your only shot with a taser, you have to reload the cartridge after that. And by the time you've done that you're stabbed to death. People understand that you can close the distance on someone you know, there's a kind of a drill I would show my students. It takes a couple of principles. But how far away do you have to be to be saved from a knife attack, most people say five feet 10 feet, really, it's 28 feet. Because anything less than 28, the average person can close that distance and stab the officer before the officer can draw their weapon, aim and fire. And that's because of something called action is fashion reaction. So So basically what's going on is you orient yourself, you observe, you decide and you act right it's called the OODA loop. And so that other person has already decided I'm going to run it this comp and stabbing. So he or she has already gone through that whole process before the officer even begins it. So there's that delay that reaction time delay. And every time I would do this, I would tell my students, okay, go 21 feet away from me, and stand there. I give them like a pin or something. And I say okay, well as soon as you start moving, I'm going to draw my weapon on, which weren't my keys in my pocket, I would point them at you. And of course, I tell them, I know he's gonna run at me because this is this is the drill. Cops don't always know that. Well, every single time I've ever done that, regardless of it's a big dude, a little girl, you know, small girl to me little like, you know, but a small stature girl, they always reach me before I either at the same time or before I'm able to, to point aim and fire. So people have to understand these types of things. You know, we look at movies and movies don't do the profession much help either because, you know, TV shows and movies that you're either, you know, you're like Bruce Willis, who never misses and, you know, do all these great things and die hard and you're just unkillable. You know, or you have these situations like Criminal Minds, which is one of my all time favorite shows, but like at the end of every episode, there's the bad guy, right? The unsub about to kill somebody and they start talking to him like trying to talk him down. That's not real life. You know, you can't do that because your job is to protect that person. And the more hesitation you you do the greater chance that they're gonna get hurt or killed. But I do think overall to kind of get back to your original point that yes, tasers and other less lethal means are good tools. The thing is they are limited. And in the use of force continuum, what we call the officer is always allowed to be one level higher than the other person, the person that they're dealing with. So if they're using, you know, a baseball bat, that's deadly force, I'm not going to pull a taser on you. Because again, you miss and you're in a lot of trouble. tasers are typically for non, you know, people that are non compliant to you know, maybe they're under arrest and you say turn around the change on your back and they're like, you know, FSU or whatever. You can take them depending on the department, tase them right there and that puts them in a situation where you can get them handcuff relatively easily without having to go hands on. Because once you put your hands on somebody who's going to resist the chances of someone getting hurt or killed, go up substantially. So the Taser is a good way. But you have to use it up those lower levels. You can't, you know, pull a taser when somebody's got a gun or knife or they're about to stab or kill somebody because it's not net for that. And it's not effective at doing that stopping anything at that point.

Brian Nichols  
What about, so we you mentioned two of these cases, and we saw them it was Eric Garner, and George Floyd, most recently, and in those two examples, it was where these individuals had been detained, and they were being held by police officers Eric Garner's case I believe it was a chokehold. And with George Floyd, it was the need of the back of the neck. And in both cases, both men passed away from I believe it was either was a large loss of oxygen or a heart attack or something. They were both not in good health, either, which definitely ran into problems. But with that being said, I think back there was a video I saw, you know, just scrolling through the interwebs. And it was a police officer trying to subdue a gentleman. And he's just he's struggling this guy, you know, this guy is easily, you know, pound for pound match with a police officer. And the guy's pretty jacked. So the police officer struggling and all sudden, just this scrawny 120 pound guy walks in, and he's just like, he's a jujitsu guy. And he just comes in, and he's able to, like, Hey, we're gonna grab his arm, put some leverage, and within five minutes, he and the officer were able to get this guy into a position where they would get handcuffs on him Ronettes, and actually, there's one part in the video where he goes, Hey, he's, he's not able to do anything, take your knee off, take your knee off, and you watch that video. And I think your average person will see that and say, See how easy it is? See how like, what, why are we having this happen more frequently than not? So maybe it's too much of a simplification. But would it make more sense to have more of that type of training towards police officers versus being an AMS paying more for in this example, right now, we're not going back to the situation where baseball bat versus taser, but more so we have the suspect they're in the they're in the means of getting apprehended? Is it possible to maybe go more towards a less lethal route that way by just learning newer means of actually subduing the suspect?

Will Moravits  
Right? Well, you know, just because someone's resisting does not mean that you can shoot them. I mean, if they're just resisting arrest or defensively resisting or maybe they're pushing you, you don't have any any authority at all or whatever, to use deadly force at that point. But you know, the, in the example you gave, and I write about this in my book is that tops especially in today's you know, world were in an A is a very popular sport, very fast growing, need to learn some of these things. And I think the more confident they are in their skills, the less likely they are to panic and then to move on to higher levels of force. I will tell you that I did mixed martial arts for about four years, pretty heavily 340 days a week for several hours a day. And when I first got in there, and I had been a cop, I was in good shape. I was like, okay, I can handle myself, right. I mean, everybody thinks you can handle them. So I went out there on day one, and box, the guy who was like, 30 of my age about 30 to 33. But he'd been boxing since he was like nine. I did not lay a finger on him. His heart as I tried, I could not touch him. And if he was just touching me whenever he felt like it like he wasn't even trying. And that really opened my eyes like holy cow. This is fighting in real life is way different than it is on TV. And, you know, a month, a year and a half later, I remember a guy a Marine, a marine of all people came in and wanted to do a little sparring and it would the roles reversed. He never laid a finger on me and I punched him so many times he gave up verbally said I quit. Because, you know, you see on TV people fight. That's what that scrawny guy you're talking about? Yeah, he probably did have some sort of jujitsu. And that's a really good tool. For a lot of a lot of officers to do, whether it be wrestling or some kind of ground game because a lot of fights end up on the ground. And it is good. You could get some leverage. You could get you know, different things like that. But some of the police departments don't allow for some of those moves. I was trained in something. It's basically a an arm triangle to you know, get somebody under control. Some departments will let you use that. And it's a blood joke. If you know anything about jujitsu, it's a blood choke, you're not It's not that you can't breathe, it's blood to your brain has been cut off and then you pass out. In the case of Eric Garner, he was in that That kind of rear naked choke hold for maybe eight to 10 seconds, if I remember correctly. And then, you know, the coroner's report on Eric Garner said that because he was severely obese, he had a heart condition, whatever the that's the reason why he died, it had nothing to do with what offers Pentel auto did. Although that particular officer did get eventually fired, I believe by your PD, it was because that that was a move you weren't supposed to use. Now, when it comes to George Floyd, there is a technique and that the Minneapolis Police Training Manual had it I was trained to where when you were going to handcuff somebody and on their stomach, and that would call the prone position. You can put your knee like at the top, you know the base where your neck kind of meets your spine really. And you have that kind of bump right there at the top, the bottom of your neck. Yeah. But it's only it's only meant to get them in handcuffs, talks a lot of police officers a lot of experts and because I cannot think of a single reason why he would have his knee on Floyd's neck for more than maybe 10 1015 seconds. Right at most. So that's definitely something that injustice was served, right, all four officers were fired, the next day Shogun is going to spend the rest of his life in prison. I would not be surprised if that's a pretty short life, because he's going to be target number one in prison. The other officers are I think their trials are, you know, in the works, but so again, I You're right, but it kind of depends on the circumstance, you know, and that's, that's the part that they can get tricky. But I do think and I write about this in my book that cops can do a better job of training, physically, eating better, things like that, so that they don't feel panic, because when you feel panic when you're on the ground, and you've never fought somebody, you panic, and that's when you might pull your you know, your Taser or your gun or something cuz you're panicking.

Some of the officers I worked with were really into mixed martial arts, and they never had a problem fighting somebody because they knew they could take them without having to resort to anything, right. They, they, if they were on their back with somebody on top of them, they didn't panic because they knew what to do. You know, of course, that takes time and money. You know, being a cop's hard enough on your family. And now you're going to say, Okay, now four hours a week, you're going to be training the students who stuff but it's necessary, it could it could be the difference between the officers life, or even the subjects, you know, it can save one or both lives by being a little bit better at at that you kind of utilizing those other techniques, like you mentioned. But yeah, the reality is, are some cases where that'd be force is the only option.

Brian Nichols  
It's funny, when you go back to the conversation about bettering yourself, and in his case physically bettering yourself. I mean, how was how was it that that seems to be the answer for, in this case, policing, to protect yourself against COVID. Just to be the best version of yourself. I mean, like across the board, physical fitness, mental fitness, it's so important. And I think, you know, that's a great starting off point is, I mean, cops and police in general, you have now tools if you can, to start getting better. And in those different areas. I mean, I look at all my sales team, you know, they can take the training that I give them every single day, or they can go above and beyond watch the podcast, go and do the extra courses, do the seminars, and those are the people who they just absolutely knock it out of the park. So I think we're going to see almost a similar situation here as we're moving towards the the future here in the the world of policing. And with that being said, I know you kept on bringing back this is all in your book. And this is actually the title of today's episode, the blue divide policing, and race in America. Well, unfortunately, we are already hard pressed for time, which caught me off guard, but I want to make sure we give you I know that went fast. But I'll give you the last last word here in specifically, number one words of wisdom for the audience. Number two, if you want to tie a nice bow on this episode, something you want the audience to take away. And then number three, the most important cuz I'm a sales guy at heart call to action, where can folks go ahead and get the blue divide? And to also go ahead and support you. Okay, well,

Will Moravits  
you know, to what I would like viewers to take away from this is that it? It's very complicated. It's not a black and white situation part of the time. Officers at many times can do better individually, they can do better their job. But the community needs to understand that if we really want to have safe communities and we really want to have good relationships between police and the communities they serve. You got to get past all these lies and these myths and realize that there are human beings behind the each badge. There's fathers and wives and mothers and brothers and children you know that these people have families They're just trying to do the best that they can do and they're trying to get home within a shift. You know, and I think that officers not just physically but mentally, you know, you've got to prepare yourself, you know, you've got to imagine every situation and imagine yourself surviving, right? It's that kind of mind over matter type of deal. But But you're right. I mean, physical fitness is a big part of especially like I said, with MMA growing, a lot of the people you encounter now are going to know how to fight. So you know, but I really just hope that this book will will move towards bridging the gap between communities of color and police healing some of that that tension, and just understanding that we're all trying to do the best we can to make the world a safer place. And you know, you can support me this book is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, pretty much any of the major retailers. You can follow me on Twitter, my handle is W Borovets. Two Three, W rabbits two three reached out to me you know, even if you don't buy my book or whatever, you just want to direct message me and ask me some questions I'd be more happy to to engage with you. Because my my goal is to make make this better, because I do believe that black lives matter, but I believe all black lives matter. I believe that everybody can do a little bit better job but communication is the first step.

Brian Nichols  
Ah, men cannot agree more. And with that, folks, we'll make it as easy as possible for you to go ahead and not only catch the blue divide, but also you can go ahead and follow William I had to do is click the artwork in your podcast catcher, it'll bring you to today's episode, where you can find the entire episode all the social media links, where you can go ahead and find the blue divide. And also how about this the entire transcript of today's episode? Oh, by the way, all 460 Plus episodes of The Brian Nichols Show but with that being said, well, more of it's the blue divide policing and race in America. Thanks for doing The Brian Nichols Show.

Will Moravits  
Thank you.

Brian Nichols  
Thanks for listening to The Brian Nichols Show. Find more episodes at the Brian Nichols show.com If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. Want to help us reach more people? Give the show a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe to find us the Brian Nichols show.com and download the show on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow me on social media at V. Nichols liberty and consider donating to the show at the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash support. The Brian Nichols Show is supported by viewers like you. Thank you to our patrons Darryl Schmitz, Michael Lima, Michel Mankiewicz, holy John's credit caster, and the we're libertarians network.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai