616: GOP vs. LP? - Are We Winning Hearts & Minds, Winning Elections, or Both?

Brian Nichols  0:00  
The Libertarian Party versus GOP. We're trying to win hearts and minds are we trying to win elections? Let's talk about that focusing on winning arguments. We're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Liberty, this is an episode for you is because if you can on social media, specifically over on the world of the new Elon Musk Twitter, yes, all of us rejoice inevitably steam the conversation we're doing right now with the Libertarian Party versus the GOP what's the best way to advance Liberty all that is being focused right now on the microcosm of Arizona with a right now the Libertarian candidate running for US Senate dropping out to endorse his rival in that case, the Republican but is your rival and we're going to talk about that. But first we're gonna go ahead and give a shout out to today's sponsor and that is yes to all of you candidates out there, but also to all of you small and medium sized business owners and it's specifically when you're trying to face the challenges of making an impact on the digital landscape right strategies are going to be your proven partner to help not only change the impact of your elections for the positive but also change the way your business will go ahead and find success head over the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash RS and you're going to be able to get not just if you're a candidate a free campaign report card but also if you're a business owner a free marketing report card see where you're at you want to figure out how you're doing right now as you're going out trying to reach new customers or reach new voters. What a great opportunity to head the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash RS let Morgan and the team over at right strategies know that I sent you other than that, folks, if you're trying to amplify your message to find your voters and your customers where they spend your time head the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash R s to learn more all right so for today's episode, I can't do this myself. So I called in some backup I reached out to The Brian Nichols Show team and joining us yes we have a returning from Cody's concerns Kenny Cody and then also joining us for the first time in seemingly forever because he's been busy playing the role of dad and moving Jeremy Todd from cell liberty. Welcome back, everybody. But hold on Kenny Jeremy. Where have you been? Are you okay? What's new? blink twice if you can hear me it's

Jeremy Todd  2:27  
all good. I am currently being held captive in the this land of Florida, the villages by old people and retirees everywhere and no, it's been a great time. Being down here with family and relocating to the Northern Kentucky area Thomas Massey's District, which is just fantastic. And yeah, life is starting to settle into a bit of a rhythm, which is great.

Brian Nichols  2:57  
There you go, man. And hey, I mean, you're setting me up to start things off, man. It sounds like you're in these pretty nice Liberty GOP areas. You're living in Thomas Massey's area. You're hanging out in Florida with Ron DeSantis. And hey, that's the conversation right now we're seeing over on social media. Jeremy Kennedy. Thank you guys for joining you talk about this because let's kind of focus where this is taking place over in Arizona. Now. Jeremy, this is your home state. Where is it? Your actual home state homes, no

Jeremy Todd  3:23  
border raise Sweet Home Alabama. We, when my wife graduated from vet school, we had to pick somewhere to go. And while we were still young and childless, we decided let's go out west, see what it has to offer. enjoy ourselves out there. And we spent the last three years in the Phoenix metro area.

Brian Nichols  3:45  
And so we had the GOP candidate who's running for office out there. And that is one Blake masters now Blake masters was I guess he used to identify himself. Can you help me out here as a Rothbardian? Is that fair?

Kenny Cody  4:00  
Yeah, he basically said that his dad gave him a Macy's and broth board as HCA as a child. It was within the ratings that he first started out with, and that's kind of the basis of his political thoughts. You know, I'm Mark Victor show. He basically talked about how he was raised on those sorts of values was, you know, he human advanced and a bunch of other different books that his father gave him. I mean, he was basing a lot of his political philosophy off of those, those the he was raised on those values.

Brian Nichols  4:26  
And Mark Victor, you mentioned mark, so mark is was the Libertarian candidate for Senate out in Arizona now we say was because he just recently dropped out of set election and has gone ahead and endorsed Blake masters now, to be fair to the framing of like masters. He has not only rejected a lot of the ideas he says he wants help but has gone ahead. And yes, taking a very rah rah Maga approach which if you're looking at the traditional GOP that is today, I kind of get it especially when Carrie Lake is the running. The candidate is right at the top a ticket there in Arizona as the governor can her celebrity nice, Jeremy. I like that. But also one thing I think it's it's, it's interesting to see is that not only has Mark Victor endorsed Blake masters, but also Ron Paul, Rand Paul. So, I mean, two of the most noted sitting libertarians in either the House or the Senate, even though they're not necessarily big L libertarians. I think that does carry some weight. So I'm torn a little bit. Right. So let me start off here. And Jeremy, I'll let you maybe take the ball first. And then we'll let carry on because we're seeing this libertarian dropping out. So a lot of libertarians are up in arms are saying what the hell man, and rightfully so I would say in terms of, hey, you were running as a libertarian, if you're not going to run, don't run, I get that. And I would say in the tone of the election, and I hate the rhetoric, you know, the most important election of our lifetimes. But after what we all just went through the past two and a half years, kind of feels like it might be up there in importance and significance. So Jeremy, hit me with some some of your fields here like what what are you? What are you? Yeah, not just being carrying, but also specifically somebody who has some vested interest being a former Arizona resident?

Jeremy Todd  6:12  
Yeah. Well, let me start off with kind of the blanket answer to this. If I still lived in Arizona, I would vote for black masters, I probably would have voted for black masters. Even if Mark Victor had stayed in the race. Okay, like, there, there is a some reality to existing in a purple state. I don't think there's necessarily a lot of fuss about who that that this guy isn't worthy of a vote from a libertarian in this very specific situation, with Mark Victor being the other candidate, where a lot of the and don't get me wrong, listen, I'm speaking for me, there are a lot of libertarians who have, especially in the LP, they have their own little vested interest. And they're all kind of playing some sort of game where where my real rub comes in is when it is trying to figure out and discover where exactly do we draw this line of, you know, who we avoid, who we don't compete with, and who deserves the endorsement of people in the Liberty, movement and circle. And for me, while he may have earned a vote based on situation, he would not have necessarily earned an endorsement. Because an endorsement is, it means like, I stand behind this person's policies, choices, decisions. And I just like it did not meet that threshold for me with like, masters. While he said a lot of good things. And Brian, I don't know if you pull it up. If you pulled up his website, there's there's zero departure from Ron DeSantis. There's zero departure from Ted Cruz, there's zero departure from Donald Trump, which are people that if they tried to run as a libertarian, we would accept like that they everybody within our party would say, this person does not meet the standards needed in order to represent and call themselves a libertarian. So then why would we endorse somebody like that? And so yeah, so you know, we'll start start there. I think there's like an on the issues, you know, type piece that was our first one. And ultimately, my, my, my opinion of Blake Masters is that he is a rubber stamp for Donald there it is. He is a rubber stamp for Donald Trump policies. Here's here's the Masters plan. Yeah. So if you keep scrolling down, issue number one, oh, look at that America's true magnet candidate, make America safe, again, secure the border in the legal immigration stop the Biden Crime Wave. All of these are rhetoric and talking points of somebody who is a rubber stamp for Donald Trump. And that means he's and when you're in a purple, like, this is another piece to it. Arizona is a very important state. So he knows his entire political career rests on the approval of Republicans when it comes down to it. Thomas Massie is not going to lose his job. Rand Paul is not going to like I'm here in Kentucky now. Like I can tell you, they don't even campaign they don't have to. They're not gonna lose their jobs. So they have the ability to stand up to establishment Republicans, to even Trump, and it's not going to cost them their job complete masters do that. I don't know. I don't think so. And I think he would just approve everything that the Republicans do, he would go around with along with the Republican agenda, and we all know that that is not As a way to advance liberty.

Brian Nichols  10:02  
Now it's not really quick to be fair, they did try primary Thomas Massie, Liz Cheney actually gave money to his primary opponent. And I think they found out that he had given or he posted something racist tweets or something like that. So they ended up pulling out of the race. But anyways, they did try but to your point, I

Jeremy Todd  10:18  
mean, they tried stood no chance after a brutal and it looks the same when he runs in the generals, it is a brutal declaration that you are not if they run, it's their seat. And so, Blake masters not in that position, he has to toe the line, he has to be obedient to the Republican establishment, and that has been an antithesis to liberty in the past. So that's why I don't like throwing our weight behind him. While it may be worthy of a vote and making a choice in a state that is purple in an election, that's going to be close. It's not worth splitting the liberty movement, saying yeah, we're gonna throw our weight behind this guy, you know. So to

Brian Nichols  11:03  
make sure we're on the we're all speaking the same lingo, right? So a lot of your critiques here, I'll say not even really criticism, but more just kind of minor critiques is the terminology right? Not so much saying, Hey, listen, if you're gonna vote for him, Go vote for him. Say you're dropping out, whatever. But like, don't go and open throated Lee endorsed the guy. Is that fair?

Jeremy Todd  11:23  
Yeah, it's not even necessarily just what Mark Victor did. You know, I've never really been a huge fan of Mark Victor. If you ever get a chance to listen to one of his speeches, I encourage you not to. It is painful. It's it's one of the worst things I've ever had to listen to. But either way, my whole point is like this liberty movement, believing that these Magga Republicans are our people, our team, and they can talk down their nose and go, this was a great choice for principals over party. Where is the line? Like, where do we say that this isn't good enough to get our backing to where we back away and don't challenge you? And? That's a great

Brian Nichols  12:10  
question. And I think, to answer that question, let's go to Kenny because he's got a lot of time in the world kind of, of not just liberty movement, but also, you do spend a lot of time speaking to a lot of the Maga folks. So I think you maybe have a chance to talk a little bit more about what you're seeing as you're engaging in that world a little bit more. So, talk to us about Jeremy's concerns. You know, when you look at, obviously, President Trump has a very polarizing figure in the not just the GOP, but in America, but in the GOP specifically, he still has a lot of pull. And you see, you know, I think Jeremy does rightfully point out Blake has been pandering a lot to kind of that Magga, Republican Trump endorsed kind of approach. Does that lead some concern? And is there some merit behind the the concern that maybe Blake will just be a rubber stamp for some of those establishment folks that were a little concerned about just from the onset, like the McConnell's of the world, the Lindsey Graham's of the world and the likes?

Kenny Cody  13:01  
Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I love to capitalize on this on this argument, I'm on this conversation, if you scroll a little bit more down Blake's page, when you go to like the make America safe again, portion, the front one, the first things that you see in terms of making sure that America is strong is strong and smart national defense, the first sentence says he calls out the military industrial complex. You're not going to see DoD on any establishment Republicans national defense or foreign policy pays that is just the truth. And while he is trying to appeal to independence, while he was trying to appeal to Republicans to come and show out for him, this the same guy who has been sampling

Jeremy Todd  13:39  
third point right there. One,

Kenny Cody  13:43  
yep, right there. And then we'll see. Yeah, go back up to one is the last tab.

Jeremy Todd  13:49  
Yeah. This guy. Gotcha. And there it is. Yep.

Kenny Cody  13:53  
So in that first sentence, he says that he will protect us from the stupidity of the military industrial complex. And another point in regards to the establishment Republicanism that we kind of go into in terms of establishment politics, but like masters and JD Vance are two of the only Republicans in the entire country, be the them incumbents or be the nominees that have said they will vote against Mitch McConnell for majority leader. So you're having somebody who is an anti establishment candidates who is really pulling third or fourth and I admit the Blight masters absolutely capitalized on the Maga movement in order to win that primary. He did and he succeeded. But he has not backed off on the point that he would not vote Mitch McConnell for majority leader. He has not capitalized on the point of aligning with the rest of the Republicans and voting for Ukrainian aid all but non repelled Albert, non senators in the US Senate as a whole voted for the Ukrainian aid package. I think that two of my senators and Bill Haggerty, Marsha Blackburn, were the only state delegation in the country that didn't, but to compare masters with some of the established Republicans that we're seeing across the country I still think is genuine. You know, I saw that your interview with Mark Victor like as soon Soon as he announced that he was going to be an endorsing Blythe masters I took the liberty of watching his video and watching his interview and it does not sound like to me that he has the beliefs of steps Republicans like Mitt Romney, or even those like let's let's just say Marco Rubio. I mean, yes, he said quotes like libertarian does not work but he explained that quote to Mark Victor in regards to libertarian ism is in amazing in theory, and it's an establishment from where we should believe the government should work but to get anything done and to an end to fight back against already governmental overreach that has suffered our society and to Pete the citizens suffer from COVID Not seeing the way that we do that is used a little bit of government that we do have to fight back and fight back against Cultural Marxism and fight back against COVID lockdowns fight back against federal government overreach, you have to have a little bit of government and be able to in order to do that to fight back against what has already been done through authoritarianism. So I just it's hard for me to say that I mean, I agree Yes, with any Republican politician that is running for the US, no matter what there will always be a concern that they are going to be subjected to re establishment politics by the Mitch McConnell's of the world by the Rick Scott's the World and Me and by the Donald Trump's of the world. But the US Senate needs an anti establishment politician and an anti establishment Republican like Blythe masters because unlike in the house when there are so many Maga Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Matt gates, more Bovard and Thomas Massie, who vote pretty much in line with each other. And I know that a lot people don't want to give credit to green gates or vote for their votes as much as they do Massey, but that but I've talked to Massey myself while I was in DC, and these are the people that he has given the most amount of credit to him being libertarian, the populist of this movement, the Maga Republicans of this movement are the ones that are the most libertarian, and I'm gonna go ahead and say it are doing more libertarian leaning things in terms of legislation than any libertarian or any Republican in the entire country, be it at the state legislative level or the local level. So in my opinion, I think that endorsing somebody like masters and a swing state, like that has been done, and he has actually had a conversation that has sustained his endorsement. He has had this conversation, he pointed out his criticisms and the things that passion has said in the past, such as that libertarianism quote, in his interviews and speeches when he called him out and asked him to explain himself, and he still thinks that this guy is worthy of endorsement and me dropping out and kind of guiding my voters, hopefully over to Masters is going to benefit the liberty movement. I think it's a great decision. And no, that's very bias. For me. I'm a GOP County Chairman. Okay, I run Republican campaigns, and I promote the GOP on a national scale. And I've only honest with you, I'm surprised at how establishment that podcasts like this are the only ones that I'm invited on. Because I love the GOP hates my criticism so much. So this is what I have to do in order to appeal to my Republicans as appear on podcasts like this. But I am thankful that people like Dave Smith, people like Mark Victor exists because they have the ultimate goal in mind, which is human liberty. And if that is the goal, if that is the true goal, then we have to do stuff like this. You all have to do stuff like this. And I think Victor really good accomplishment a W today, I think even unknotting this debate in the LP and I'm glad to see it happen. I'm glad to see Dave Smith and Justin Amash go back and forth. I'm glad to see Victor start so many conversations when in the ELP. All in all, I think some people are mad about it. And I understand why especially because the timing a week before the election. That's one of the criticism, I'm willing to say he should have done this a month ago, even as a GOP guy, I wish he would have done this a long time ago because it may affect the polling and make matters more fun than if he saw that he may have been upper cloture in polling because of it, there's dropout. But I think overall this is a win for the LP and the GOP I and I think that it creates the conversation of what is the ultimate goal and are the add on these avenues the right ways. And I think a lot of them are like in Victor's case.

Brian Nichols  18:44  
And really quick. I do want to address one misnomer that was brought out there on social media, of course, misinformation already on Twitter, Elon, what the hell? And it was, this was a ballot access race. It was not. There was specific rules, and actually the Arizona Libertarian Party address this specific like, on their own like they specifically said, This is not thank God about about access race. So that's one positive there, but two, I think we all are on board like yeah, the timing sucks a week before the election. Come on. Like let's let's at least be more smart here. But I guess, let's go back to the MALAMI.

Jeremy Todd  19:22  
So, what do you think about Georgia?

Brian Nichols  19:25  
Who me or Kenny

Jeremy Todd  19:26  
Kenny, let's talk about Georgia, the Senate race as well as the governor race.

Kenny Cody  19:31  
So I mean, Camp is an incumbent and campaigns it is in Georgia's historically Republican state. I mean, they've got a Republican led legislature, a Republican state senate. You know, I think camp has been able to get a lot of Republican policies done and then you have a celebrity, like Herschel Walker, who has a lot of scandals, who has been a lot of controversies and then you have an incumbent Democrat, like Raphael Warnock. I mean, in my prediction, I think it goes to a runoff in December I think neither candidate gets above 50% Very similar to lead to right wasn't In 21, the OS often Warnock ran against La Fleur and Purdue. I think eventually Walker pulls it out. And I think you probably the probably, I'm guessing your question is going to relate to Shane Hazel in terms of his involvement in the Senate in that same regard, you know, I mean, Hazel come out today, I think, or today or yesterday and especially Monisha Victor's decision to do what he did. I think that Hazel is a really good debater. I think he's he sells Liberty really, really well. I think that I think having him in the race is good. I think it's a good thing overall, especially if it's not a multiple person race, like Mike Lafleur was facing when Doug Collins and it was running in that election as well. But ultimately, I think it's a good thing I think he had that Hazel you know challenges the status quo a bit and if the election is more than likely gonna go to a runoff anyway. It's good to have hazel to push at least Walker there especially if it's a Democrats running if it's a Democrat if it's camp or anybody else. The entire conversation around camp, the entire conversation around the Senate, I think having Hazel there's a voice especially when keep us so far ahead in the polling, it wouldn't matter who he ran against. I think he had crates, the conversation of the camp can do a lot of a lot more better things if he is in that conversation.

Jeremy Todd  21:19  
Right. So how would you feel specifically if GOP members came out and endorsed Shane Hazel for Governor over camp?

Kenny Cody  21:27  
So if Gio, so if there was income? So for GOP IRS or current like incumbents? Well, there's a difference.

Jeremy Todd  21:34  
Well just know, like current members of the GOP, prominent members of the GOP coming out and saying, Hey, look, Brian Kemp is an establishment hack. He locked people in their homes. He's not a good governor for the state of Georgia. You should vote for Shane Hazel.

Kenny Cody  21:50  
I disagree with ultimately, yeah.

Jeremy Todd  21:53  
Okay. So this is ultimately Brian, where my biggest gripe with the GOP comes from, this is a one sided relationship. And that is that they will preach to Libertarian Party members about how you should make choices of principals over party don't just vote along party lines, but then they are incapable of doing the same thing. Hey, ultimately, where my frustration with this ordeal with Martin Victor comes from it. Okay,

Brian Nichols  22:22  
what I will give credit where credit's due one candidate has done that once elected official and that was Rand Paul. And you know where he did it in New Mexico and you know, who did it with? Gary Johnson? Yeah, yeah, I did have

Jeremy Todd  22:34  
the the exceptions always come to to Julia, the Amish, Nancy, Rand Paul, they are the few exceptions to the rule. And that's what why I'm having this conversation about where do we draw this line? Because if it's it, let's say hypothetically, Nikki Haley, comes out of nowhere and wins the presidential nomination. 2020 for Trump and the Santas eat each other alive. And she sticks in the back door. Who do you think like Masters is going to endorse for President Dave Smith? No, he's gonna come to bat for Nikki Haley.

Kenny Cody  23:06  
And I want to know,

Brian Nichols  23:08  
nope. We lost Jeremy. Oh, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, no. And I think he actually does have a really good point as we're waiting again. Yeah, because he does see this quite a bit where it is one sided. Like I almost I think there's Jeremy, I think it's almost lost

Jeremy Todd  23:24  
my Sorry, I lost my internet there. But no, you're good. With is this one sided relationship, where the Libertarian Party is expected to bow down when somebody is good enough, rather than continue to make the fight. And we're the ones who have to sacrifice when they're more than happy to endorse establishment hacks, Neo cons over LP candidates. And I'm frustrated

Brian Nichols  23:48  
with Hey, Jeremy, what would you say the line is, then I'm curious, like, what do you see? Like, let's say for example, it is a Thomas Massie is a Rand Paul like, obviously, I wouldn't want to run a libertarian against them. But it was or if it was John McCain, like no questions asked, like, run a libertarian all day long. Because that I think, also gives us a chance to differentiate more effectively. And like it's like if I'm going into sales, say a sales role here. I'm trying to compete against, you know, let's say a telecom vendor, I don't want to talk to or I don't want to necessarily like talk to the things that were similar about I want to focus on what's the thing that I know we do better and like as we get to the more liberty camp I guess, you look at like your freedom score your liberty score, anything like 80 or above like there's room for improvement, but I would say you are a friend deliberately so like yeah, for me. So arbitrary like what's what's that score? How do you base that score? But like, at least that I'm trying to like look to see okay, there's something we can base that on, but for you, what would you say you would look to? Do you

Jeremy Todd  24:57  
do something that's unpopular amongst Republicans? In order to defend liberty, that's the measurement for me. And I don't trust that blank masters will do that.

Kenny Cody  25:08  
And that's and that's completely fair. You know, one thing that that I differ from, though, is I think that it's very true that you have to look at the viable candidates and you have to look at those who are worth endorsement, as you said, are they are you truly worth it to say I endorsed this guy to give him more of a chance at being a Democrat? Right? One thing I did in 2000, I forget, forget if it was to I guess it was 2020 when New Mexico's Senate election was up, and Martin I think is Martin Heinrich is his name in New Mexico when Gary Johnson was running for the Senate, then as a libertarian, as a former governor. And he they he had a neocon Senate nominee. I went on Twitter, and I said the Republican needs to drop out and they needed to endorse Gary Johnson. I think those battles are worth it. I absolutely think those matters when I think the libertarian has a chance of winning, when I think that they haven't a viable path forward to actually defeat the Democrat. Absolutely. I wish we could do here I'll be I'll be honest, and this would be unpopular amongst amongst a lot of people. I wish we could do Harrington want to beat Tom Tom cotton in the general election. Because I disagree with Tom Cotton a lot more and I disagree with your character. However, I think we're the pariah. And I'm not asking for a Libertarian Party at all in any way, shape, or form to endorse somebody that they that they adamantly disagree with. But I'm gonna go in and ask this question. If Blythe masters isn't good enough, I don't know who will be. I don't know any any libertarian.

Jeremy Todd  26:28  
Rand Paul gentleman I'm gonna vote for

Kenny Cody  26:31  
but those men and Ron Paul, who is the father of modern libertarianism have endorsed this guy. He has went on shows and explained his positions in detail. I know his campaign website may not be held up to a lot a lot people think and more people walk and I know he embraced Trump during the primary. But if this guy who has read Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises, and been raised on these values, and has been in Lenoir County, like he's, he left the libertarian I think there's a difference between living leaving the Libertarian Party and aligning with the Libertarian Party values and then seeing the path forward if a third Republican Party just like Justin Amash did

Jeremy Todd  27:09  
yeah, no, no, I am not talking about party I'm talking about him stating that libertarianism is not going to get us where we want to go when we should use state power. i By the way, I can I want to address this misnomer and I know I'm talking over you I want you to finish but this idea that libertarianism doesn't fight back against leftism is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. In fact, it's quite the opposite where the only way to fight back Republicans are trying to get in a fistfight with with left wingers and going you know what if I'm going to beat them, I need steroids. But then the Democrats go okay, well, then I get steroids too. Well, you just gave your opponent steroids to get stronger and faster. Libertarians are the ones saying let's cut everybody's arms off right. So that no you guys get we want to get the power and you in the GOP tends to have a conversation about wanting to use it like you have to use it to defeat list leftism. No, you should use your power to gut the power, then they have no ability to enforce this cultural Marxism. You speak enough.

Kenny Cody  28:12  
Okay. And that's a good that's a great criticism. But Malama questions rely on what is gutting the power like is that abolishing federal departments? If and if that's one of the Okay, then White White masters come out today on Dartmouth to show us that he would abolish the Department of Education abolish the FBI was almost the CIA. So but that's that's really my question, though, is he has said that he is a libertarian is not the path forward. And and even I disagree. I do. I'm a I'm a populist. And I think that the Indian state and state power lose by Rhonda Santas and others I think is perfectly fine and good at the state level. But I think that there's too high of a bar to meet oftentimes, and and that's a perfect fit. That's the reason that the tune the Jeremy, you, Brian, and a bunch of people who watch this podcast are a part of the Libertarian Party because I think the bar that you set and I think it's very admirable. I'll go ahead and I think it's very admirable. And I wish I could get there. I really wish that I was libertarian, as you all are, and believing that third party venture in the third party journey is the way to enact liberty and they're late to a bid to cut down on phone federal, the federal government, but it's not. It just isn't. And it never will be. And I hate to break the news like that because I am so fond of so many libertarian people. So Libertarian Party People I brought LeBron Jeremy, I like you and I like so many members of ELP. And I'm going to tell you to I am glad that LP Canada's challenged the status quo and challenge establishment Republican candidates because they create the conversation on foreign policy when they get to a debate stage. And they're they're challenging the neocon foreign policy. He has spending and states the house spinning of the federal government when they're on stage. And they're the only candidate saying that, that I absolutely want them up there. But the problem is, is when somebody like masters who had to meet has met that bar they have at least submit that minimum. And if I was an LP person, I think that he would meet those requirements. I know there's plenty in the LP, who don't believe he meets that including yourself. And I'm not sure about what brand thinks. But when he meets the bar for Rampaul when he meets a bar for Thomas Massie and when he meets the bar for Ron Paul, who, who again is the father of modern libertarianism has been under the Libertarian Party nominee. And as has also been in the GOP as a call to income a congressman and the GOP presidential candidate when he thinks enough and Gary and Gary Johnson thinks enough of those in New Mexico that he has chosen to endorse. I think that you have to look to those men who have been part of the two above the two party system and the third parties, third party viable system and trying to see what are these men saying were the conversations they have had when they've done in depth interviews with this man, I think the he meets that bar, but and I don't really understand the argumentation of not like the I get it. I want both Republicans to be better. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing and writing when I'm writing and being active where I'm active. But I think there comes a point where purism is have a too high of a bar to meet. And sometimes you have to be willing to say that's enough. And he should

Brian Nichols  31:09  
I have a question. I have a question. And this is for Jeremy. So I think Kenny does raise a good point. So like, let's just let's, let's go to a hypothetical 2023. Right. fund world. Weight Masters is now the sitting Arizona US senator and he there's a vote to x, let's say IRS Department of Education and the DHS right. And he's voting yes on all of them. And yet he then votes for I don't know name name, you're not libertarian idea for

Kenny Cody  31:43  
legalizing marijuana or

Jeremy Todd  31:45  
on the ground in Taiwan. It's not something

Brian Nichols  31:49  
right. But like, what what when would libertarians be like there is an objective good from him, along with an objective bad but we can take the objective bad with the objective. Good.

Jeremy Todd  32:00  
So like, like I said, I would vote for him if I still live in Arizona. Luckily, I get to vote for someone better. And so but ultimately, I think those are where coalition's can be built. Right? But this is not a coalition like we can there are plenty of Republicans and Democrats that the LP and libertarians are happy to build effective coalition's with the this is not what we're discussing, what we're discussing is saying, we are going to abandon why we exist, because this man is good enough to uphold our values and our principles for us. And so, ultimately, like I said, I when push comes to shove, it's that I don't trust like masters to stand up to an unpopular position from Trump the way that Massey did and the way that Rand Paul has in the past. And that's what I'm looking for somebody who will grandstand essentially, against what's popular, and until that bar is met, then we we will continue hopefully to fight against that.

Brian Nichols  33:15  
Well, let me ask this, because then we get to the the, of course, the lesser of two evils question, of course. And this is where I do think though there we have to like almost, we have to look at reality that it's probably going to be masters or Kelly. Right, right. And I know, to your point, you said yes, you would vote for him. But also, like, when you're looking at the reality of the situation, like yeah, you can support somebody who would push them, but they're not going to win. And we, and listen, I think, to have a platform for libertarian candidates, I've had probably half a dozen in the past two weeks, and I get them all platforms, I think we need to be there as an alternative voice to push, in many cases, the GOP to be better. But only in those very rare cases do we see libertarians actually facing a real chance to have electoral success. So I say all that to say, when we look at states like Arizona, for example, in this case, where let's just say we get 75% positive with Blake masters, I can almost guarantee with what we've seen with Mark Kelly, that number is going to be in the low 30s or 40s.

Kenny Cody  34:31  
So you're probably zero, right? So like,

Brian Nichols  34:33  
objectively speaking. And I think this goes to kind of your point, Jeremy with the coalition building is that we have to be more strategic in the way that we approach not just like selling our ideas, but also in the way that we're impacting real people's lives. And here's, here's my reasoning behind that is because if we, if we're not showing people a real viable half to get liberty in their own lives, when I mean agnostic a party, then we're going to have a hard time getting them to trust us to actually earn their vote, regardless of how good we do reaching them on, you know, the issues they care about. But I think if we can acknowledge in those situations like, yeah, you are better off and like just saying the uncomfortable truth, you're gonna probably be better off as a Arizona resident voting for Blake masters than Mark Kelly. And in this case, if you want to see that 75% of what you agree with actually go into policy, and how much of that will go into policy? That's the question, right? And I think that's on the voters of Arizona to hold him accountable. But will they? And that's where I guess, you know, to the question of trust. I know there's, there's definitely a question of trust, and I think it's absolutely well earned. But I will tell you what man like and this is just for me, you know, sitting here in Indiana now, like I would much rather have someone who has at least like they know who the person Rothbard is, versus out being in Pennsylvania. If it was like met Oz, he's not going to who Rothbart is he? I mean, he likely doesn't even know like the basics of libertarianism. But at least Blake knows that stuff. So like,

Jeremy Todd  36:20  
I guess, no question that Blake is is is far and above your average Republican, I'm not here to debate that he's not better than most. The question is, like, do We reward bad behavior. And in this situation, like, he's able to get away with a lot of Trump calling cards, and we just excuse it, because he could win. And that's good enough, you know. Whereas if we were as a party, and as a movement, really able to say, no, look, this is not good enough. And we're going to ruin this election for you, if you do not shape up, because to my knowledge, he hasn't changed his position on anything. When it comes down to it, he hasn't made any concessions. He hasn't said I will stop being x that libertarians disagree with. We haven't held his feet to the fire. We haven't gotten Blake masters to be better on liberty in order to drop out which I'm perfectly fine with but those concessions don't exist. And so if we continue to reward the Republican Party with dropping out and endorsing their candidates simply because they were 60 or 70%. Good. That's my question, where is the line? Because at the end of the day, we have to be able to do what happened in Georgia last cycle, and teach them that, hey, listen, you are going to listen to us, you are going to adopt our ideas, or we are going to run the 3% that makes the difference. And as long as you know, we lose our power, in my opinion, when we back off and we don't do that. So that's my take on it. Yes, it can it can it have potentially negative repercussions on liberty in the short term. Sure. But run better candidates Damn it. Like, that's our point. That's the entire purpose of the LP. If you had Thomas Massie and Rand Paul's everywhere in the Republican Party, we would not need to exist, but that that's not the reality. So until that becomes a reality, we're going to continue to challenge that, Kenny.

Kenny Cody  38:37  
Mom, my my issue again, though, that and the question, I think the question of where's the line is the same for me? Where is this threshold ever going to be met like you what you're talking about to incompetence, who have been in office for 10 years? Your comment to comments that have been office for 10 years, and you've had other Congress, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has embraced Shane Hazel, who, who has really promoted him on Twitter and said, he's running because he's promoting libertarian values out of gates. It

Jeremy Todd  39:07  
wasn't exactly what she said. But she basically said what I just said, and that is crap together. Absolutely. Libertarians deserve to continue to keep you at all.

Kenny Cody  39:17  
Absolutely. And you've had these cancel last 10 years. I don't know. The My problem is, and it's the same question. Where's the line? I think there's too high of a standard of where that line is ever going to be met. I think somebody who was endorsed again by Ron Paul, by Thomas Massie and by and by Rand Paul, his son, and now and Dave Smith, and Mark Victor, if those five endorsements and you've convinced those people to vote for you and to endorse you and to promote you and tell people to vote for you, if that person who was endorsed by those five people is not gonna be liberal by the Libertarian Party and is not going to be have concessions. I don't know if that's ever going to happen. And if that is the question, if that the ceiling is that hot and if the line is that high I don't see how the even the concession of we need to run better candidates. I don't know if there's a libertarian Republican in the world in a swing state in Arizona, that you can run rather than like masters. I just I have a huge problem in finding that person like where I

Jeremy Todd  40:18  
am, but I'm in the Libertarian Party of Kentucky. And we have we have a hands off policy on two of our on a congressman and a senator. It is hands off. We do not run candidates against him bar now and flat out it's so those exist. But man and Blake Blake could have gotten there. He was one or two steps away from from reaching that threshold. I had hopes for it. But if you want to talk about potentially putting boots on the ground over Taiwan, you want to talk about taxing people build border walls and man, and then you throw in the fact that you include a lot of Trump campaign rhetoric. I mean, I don't know why we get anything different with you. If Trump gets reelected in 2024, we get what we got for four years, which was so when Liberty which was record spending in the history of the US government, under Magga. Republicans, they are not libertarians.

Kenny Cody  41:22  
And I understand that so one question, When did he say that the boots on the ground Fatah one thing? I'm not saying

Jeremy Todd  41:27  
he's it's more about the hawkishness with China. We got to get tough on China. XYZ. But if you like if you there is there is a difference, though. On the ground in Taiwan, but either way, creating Yes. Get tough on China, by far our top geopolitical rival. What does that mean? Because it's so so so Terry. Anytime we go in that direction of get tough on XYZ country, we know where it leads. We know what that propaganda eventually leads to. We're not talking what are we? Are we talking about tariffs? That's awful. Are we talking about economic sanctions? Well, that leads to war. Right? So what are we getting tough on what other than eventually? Like? Because that sounds to me? If if, if China flies planes over Taiwan, like Masters is more than happy to shoot them

Kenny Cody  42:21  
down. So to me, I mean, I've talked about the forgot where I talked about this? I don't know if it was endearing podcast or whatever, to me it automatically. Oh, I'll tell you what it was. The US was talking about banning tick tock, right. But there's been a huge conversation and banning an application that is owned by the CCP that is owned by communist government that is stealing information and in private property information from our citizens. And it's also about this, how the CCP is in the top two to three land farmland owners in the United States and owning farmland. I think those are two things that masters have both talked about and buy in allowing businesses to thrive here that are owned by the the Chinese Communist Party to align with Bill Gates, and have it happy that the largest farmers in the United States and coming together to be able to buy private land ownership and those who are owned and operated businesses that are owned and operated by the Chinese government be allowed to buy farmland for practically no reason rather than to benefit the Chinese Communist Party in the in the United States. Those are two things that masters has talked about that shouldn't be allowed. So when I hear the Masters would have oppose Ukrainian aid funding, when I hear that he was supported Afghanistan withdrawal when I hear that he would not support boots on the ground anyway, unless provoked. I don't see where that one is even drew drew anywhere besides policy,

Jeremy Todd  43:42  
he doesn't just talk about American defense he talks about in defense of the US and its allies. So right now, that would include Saudi Arabia, meaning he would send support for the war in Yemen right now. If a NATO country was attacked by Russia, that would mean that he would invoke Article Five and support sending of our troops to fight a war in Eastern Europe. And so that's, that's, that's what I mean, man, like, the bar is high, but I don't think it's too high

Kenny Cody  44:12  
in the bar may be hard, but I have I think that you have to see more evidence like this. This is a dude who has has openly promoted anti interventionist foreign policy, like he has said that we should not be involved in the Middle East. He has said that we should not be involved in Ukraine, the two but pretty much the two biggest proxy wars of the last 10 to 20 years he has said we should not have boots on ground with we should not have boots on the ground in any capacity in those two wars. But we are kind of stretching saying well, he has said this, but it's he may do this since he has said this basis. I think that is where I think the line is drawn far too high is because he has said a basic thing we have to stand with our allies automatically means that he will support the war in Yemen, or that he would put boots on the ground and Taiwan. I think that is the stretch that have a huge problem. home with when he has openly advocated against established Republican neoconservative policy like those again who just recently, but all but non senators voted for Ukrainian aid and voted for him to give them more money to give in to some weapons over there. And I disagreed with that, and I'm willing to call it a Republican that did it when he is willing to say I would have been number 10 on that. And when he has said that the two wars that have cost us the most amount of American lives because it costs us the most amount of taxpayer money and when he has said he would oppose those two things for us take generic statements at least either said on his campaign when it's up on Israel and our allies and and to expand upon that say because he said this basic argument he is going to do this when we have seen no evidence or no straight statement he would put boots on the ground not only in Taiwan or in wherever wherever the other country that you said I don't believe that that's fair to be quite I don't believe that's fair, I think you have to take it on basis of specific policies of what he has said the anti interventionist positions that he has taken and look at that to his foreign policy and take him to task if he does miss up which again, he said at the end of his podcast Mark Victor said if you cross me if you say anything I do anything that you that I promise you my endorsement I promise you my support if you do anything you gotta be willing to be saying I called you out for this and that you need to be held accountable blight Master says bring it and please hold me accountable somebody like that who has support libertarian positions like you can't again honestly if the line and the the ceiling is far too high for for not only a few Jeremy but for a lot of your party I just don't see how

Jeremy Todd  46:37  
like masters to hope hopefully Blake masters will get four years to prove that he is more like Massey and Rand Paul and less like the other Magga rubber stamps who do good things and I'm fine with coalition's and I'm fine with supporting them, but I am not ready to say this man is, you know or or more people it has this is this is ultimately the concern. I cannot draw a significant distinction between Ron DeSantis his policies on his page if he runs for president and what like masters has said his policy positions are and so if we run a candidate against Ron DeSantis in 2024 and I put my feet on the ground and I go campaign for a Dave Smith or sprite Cohen or just whoever right I GO Campaign for them. The precedent has now been set that this is the bar that this is all that need be met in order that is that you've read some Rothbard and Mises right. And I've just don't think that's enough for us to continue bowing out and saying okay, good enough.

Brian Nichols  47:50  
All right, we're gonna have to go ahead and get ready to wrap things out there. We're gonna go to final thoughts. I final thought is libertarians. This is for us. I think we should be more strategic. So let's say for example, Chuck Schumer today he's running for reelection right now guys up in New York. Yeah, I didn't either. And guess what, I don't think anybody else knows that either. So I saw there was a debate apparently against some no name Republican. Hey, libertarians. If you're looking for a great candidate to go up and run up there and actually make a difference. There you go. Go to New York. Lee Zeldin is doing a really good job differentiating himself with Kathy hopeful where's the Republican or I'm sorry, where's the libertarian running as a foil to Chuck Schumer and the no name Republican who's obviously not doing a good job. I don't know her name know his name. I don't know if it's a guy or a girl for that matter. Or if you're a guy or girl, it's 2020s. You Brian, get it? Right. So with that being said, yeah, it's on us to start playing like the game more strategically more smart, put your money in in races, that we can actually make a difference and do so against areas where the other team whether it's the red team, or the blue team really doesn't have much of a standing in New York. If you look at the voter demographics, it's predominantly democratic. And yet, Lee's Ellen's having a chance right now to win because he's meeting people where they're at on the issues they care about specifically, the lock downs with Kathy Hueco, being one of the worst governors in response to after Cuomo left today. Governor was grabbing Fannie's. Yeah, that was always fun, grabbing Fannie's and killing Granny's Andrew Cuomo story. But no, you go to Kathy Hueco. And now you have Lee Zeldin, who was able to differentiate himself on those specific issues. God, if there was a libertarian up there who was able to do that, we would have a real good shot of getting more eyeballs on a campaign and get more successful Libertarian Party make it easier for Larry sharp in the future. I mean, heck, I would love to see Larry if he had run for US Senate. But he's unfortunately running for governor in a race word. Now it looks like it's going to be the Republican insurgents right, which I think is a good thing. Right. That's a good step in the right direction for New York. Now it's an opening the door for a libertarian to push that even further. So that's my final thoughts. Jeremy, what's your final thoughts for us? Then we'll go to Kenny

Jeremy Todd  49:52  
I you know, I completely agree with your final thoughts and I don't think we're far apart here on strategy then the LP has limited where you source says we should focus it where we can make the greatest impact. And if I had been in Arizona, I would have advised Mark Victor not to run in this race. It's as simple as that it wasn't a great strategy with where we're at now, but it is certainly not a precedent that we should continue to use moving forward. This was not necessarily the right decision based on principle. But it was based on situation. And so if we want to look at it that way, I you know, I'm not as upset. But the Libertarian Party has a unique position to continue to stick its nose in places and and force people to either be better, and deal with us or lose. And that's where we are today. But that is not where I believe we always will be if we continue to do the job of selling liberty of winning people over to these ideas. And I'll still, it's quote from Dave Smith that I think goes against kind of what he did in this masters race. At a certain point, we have to stop convincing people that we're like them, and convince them that they should be like us. And that's what I would like to see us do more of in the future.

Brian Nichols  51:10  
Kenny Cody, final thoughts.

Kenny Cody  51:13  
Enjoy this conversation a lot, because it's a conversation that I've had a lot on Twitter, especially, but you know, the sort of problems that I find, I'm still probably going to find no matter what and there's going to be belief systems that both of you all take away from this conversation, regardless of the conversation and you know, my two points are one I think that you again, you have to know the situation as Brian said, and knowing when to act no one to run people and I think the bar is too high for a lot of ELP right now, I think Masters is it's just my own personal opinion. I think people like masters are what the Republican Party's be formed after those like grandpa masters gates and a bunch of others. And two, I think that's when Republicans are trying to make that coalition I think a lot of the time people are giving them the Heisman stiff arm for some reason. never really understood that I was on Twitter the other day and me and the representative Jeremy fasion, who's one of the most libertarian leaning state legislators in the country. We're kind of questioning you know why deliberate pay runs people like Victor against black masters and this person's response was uh, you blocked ballot access when Jeremy fasion sponsored bout access and Tennessee and got it passed and you know, at least tried to get passed. So this idea that it's always has to be anti GOP and this idea that when coalition's are trying to be made that we are rejected even though sometimes we are giving credit to those who are helping our cause and who are helping our conversations like we are having in the Maga America first wing of the Republican Party that I'm a part of, you know, I give a lot of credit to all of the LP get people and a lot of ELP guys for creating conversations and holding the open you conservative warmongers accountable that are currently in the GOP and dominate the GOP unfortunately that I'm trying to change but I think that the coalition's like the one Victor has made with masters and coalition's like we have on this podcast are what the conversations and the direction of both parties need to be. And I'm afraid that a lot of the ceilings and the lines people are drawn to far too high for those coalition's to exist and I hope that changes.

Brian Nichols  53:13  
Alright folks, well if you got some value from today's episode, please do me a favor go ahead and give it a share. And also I want to hear your thoughts and please if you're joining us over on YouTube rumble or honestly leave your thoughts down below in the comments guys. I don't think we can have a more lively conversation unless we talked about who was better Tennessee football or LLM we're not gonna

Unknown Speaker  53:34  
go balls this weekend by me the answer? I know versus 11 But I do drink that

Brian Nichols  53:43  
powder keg that's all it took to get you guys go on there now um, thank you for both bring your insights the episode today guys and frankly, like this is a conversation a lot of folks are having right now and I think you both articulated both ideas and perspectives extremely well. And I appreciate both of you're bringing those views to the table today I find myself I think you know kind of again saying Why not both I find myself in both camps saying yeah, we absolutely need to have libertarians that are pushing the other two parties at the same point in time. Libertarians let's be smart when we're having these elections and try to be more effective in building these coalition's I think we will find more success. And I thank you, Kenny for pointing out. Yeah, I hope we're setting a good example here at The Brian Nichols Show of how we can effectively do that I have folks on the show who are running for office as Big L libertarians, who are small business owners, entrepreneurs, economists, activists, all across the board sales and marketing professionals. And the vision is to be able to bring these people together on common issues that we've all come to understand that is greater liberty movement stuff, right? The ideas are not hurting people not taking their stuff, basic economics and really at the end of the day property rights. So let's embrace those ideas and find where we can have more success building those relationships. So guys, thank you for doing your part here and Having that conversation and folks, if you guys got some value not only can you join us here on the video version also head to Brian Nichols show.com. You can find today's podcast version of the show and all 615 other episodes of the program which by the way includes we have Cody's concerns where we've had Kenny Cody joining us here in the program and also sell Liberty Jeremie new season of celebrities coming out soon. Yeah, News

Jeremy Todd  55:21  
New season. We will be filming next week the studio is set up in my basement. Finally, we've got some new digs. And we'll have a co host and a little different format for you guys. So I'm looking forward to it.

Brian Nichols  55:34  
Digging it man, I'm looking forward to getting celebrity back in the book. So folks, make sure you've hit subscribe everywhere you get your podcast and also we include the sell Liberty podcast right here in The Brian Nichols Show RSS feed so you can find that very easily. And by the way, folks did you know if you want to go ahead and support the program, there's a couple different ways you can do that. Number one, had the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash support number one become a patreon supporter $5 A month over there or number two, you can go ahead do a one time donation 510 $20 Whatever it may be, it all goes right back here into the program. And then the other way you can go ahead and support the program is by going to Brian Nichols show.com forward slash shop where you can go ahead and support our amazing partner over at proud libertarian but also you can get some awesome Liberty swag. I've been busy boys have been high behind the scenes work in my graphic design self to the bone and with that out came our liberty legend shirt, no marks shirt our we have our magic money tree shirt and we have a bunch of other ones as well. So please, folks, if you want go ahead, check those out. They make great Christmas gifts, which is right around the corner now that we're officially in November. So go ahead to the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash shop and use code TBNS at checkout for a discount applied to your order. All right, with that being said, that's all we have for you. Thank you for joining us and by the way, make sure if you did not check out our awesome conversation yesterday with Matt Hackenberg libertarian running for governor out in Pennsylvania. Look at that me promoting libertarian candidates. Go ahead, check it out and include it right here below. But otherwise, we'll talk to you tomorrow. It's Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show. We'll see you listening to The Brian Nichols Show.

Unknown Speaker  57:07  
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