787: Cities Under Siege - How Bail Reform Let Violent Criminals Run Free

Brian Nichols  0:17  
Go to any large city looting and rioting seems to be the norm. So what role has bail reform played in these individuals getting out of jail? Yeah, let's talk about that. Instead of focusing on winning arguments, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Well Hey there folks Brian with your on The Brian Nichols Show. And thank you for joining us on of course, another episode I am as always your humble vote joining you live from our cardio Marvel Studios here in the lovely, Mr. Indiana what boundless energy and a healthy heart along the way. Well, cardio miracle is your answer increases nitric oxide to help strengthen circulation and blood flow plus help you feel renewed and offer awesome heart protection. And by the way, gentlemen, it does help improve your sexual health as well. So if you want to join the 10s of 1000s of other folks, like yours truly who have experienced the cardio miracle difference for themselves, head over to cardio miracle.com use code TBNS at checkout for 15% off your order, or just going to Brian Nichols show.com forward slash heart secure your order of cardio miracle today, and by the way, 100% money back guarantee. So you quite literally have nothing to lose, except for of course, that high blood pressure and all the other negatives that come along with an unhealthy ticker. So one more time, Brian Nichols show.com forward slash heart code TB NS to start your heart health journey today. Alright, folks, let's talk about what right now we look at any big city that's out there. And anytime, name the event that happens good, bad or indifferent, it seems that the cities ended up turning into a dumpster fire of protests, unrest. And of course, when that the subsequent looting, I lived in Philadelphia for seven years, and I saw the writing on the wall towards the tail end of my tenure there, which was why I got the heck out of dodge, I moved to Eastern Indiana where I find myself today and I look at videos from big cities like Philadelphia, like San Francisco, like Chicago, and on the constant I see, looting, I see stores just being completely gutted and behind the reasonings for a lot of these lacks laws. Well, a lot of it has to do with a bail reform as well. So to help dig into a little bit more of the why behind why is this all happening? Returning to the show, Ken? Good. Welcome back to The Brian Nichols Show. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Ken, great to have you on the show again, and looking forward to digging into things all things bail reform. But first, do us a favor. Introduce yourself here to The Brian Nichols Show audience Misha last time, and why are you focused so much on the the aspects of bail reform?

Ken Good  3:08  
Well, my name is Ken good. I am an attorney. I'm an attorney that specializes in Bell law in Texas. And you know, I went to I was asked to go to a hearing on a case called O'Donnell versus Harris County, it was one of the first cases on bail reform. And so I went to the hearing, I sit down and I listened and I was scared to death of what was going to happen in that case. And I came out and I started making phone calls. And I said, this is going to go south, it's going to go south very quickly. It's not going in the right direction. And I think the judge is wrong. And so I told my my context, we were going to have to become experts on these bail reform issues, because no one else was no one else was looking at them from anything other than a political standpoint. And so and I will, you know, let's go fast forward since that time that Judge judge Rosenthal, Lee Rosenthal, in that case, she has been reversed six or seven times in that lawsuit. So I mean, I think that we were correct in saying that this was gonna go south. And I think we were correct in saying that she was going in the wrong direction. And I think becoming experts what we have predicted we've seen over and over again, these groups that are pushing for these reforms, when they get to the Court of Appeals, they lose their batting, 100% losing. And so that tells you there are they're making political arguments, not legal argument.

Brian Nichols  4:29  
Oh, yep. Well, and I go back to something I experienced, you're on the show it actually it's funny, Ken, when you were going a little bit off there, I went off into my my netherworld of past episodes, I found out you were on the show in 2020. That's why I was like, it seems like it's been a while since you're on the show, Ken, because a lots happened since the last time on this show. The world went through a pandemic. We're now in war to have I don't know question mark. Are we going to world war three, we'll see. So a lot of stuff seems to really have hit the proverbial fan and you go to those big blue cities. And it's not just blue cities won't be fair there. But it tends to be more often than not these larger, progressive leaning cities. And you see time and again, so many folks are living terrified, because they can't put trust in their local prosecutors to keep those individuals who are going out and not just committing random acts of non violence. But in this case, it is violence, right? It is going somebody?

Ken Good  5:26  
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, these policies that are being pushed, they're being pushed by one party, they're being pushed, I would say, to get more people to vote in their direction. And we're now reaping the benefits or the punishment of those policies, because they weren't policies at all, they were just political rhetoric to get people to come out to vote. And they are, they're our inner cities, where we have a lot of people that are live, and where we have a lot of minorities living. And so we have the arguments being made, that these minorities are being picked on, that they're in jail in larger percentages and in the public. And so we know that this system is racist as a result. And now we're having all this research coming out that's just disproving these things over and over again. And you know, I even recently did a debate with the law firm that's pushing these policies. And you know, they even admitted that there's a disproportionate amount of crime being committed on minorities. But you know, what they don't realize that when you when you make that concession, then you're agreeing that we have a disproportionate amount of crime being committed by those same minorities, because by and large in our inner cities, the crime is being committed by minorities on minorities. And so when 50% of the young of the murder rate across the United States is young black males, by and large, the murderers are young, black male, so why are we setting up policies to favor the young black male murderers to the detriment of the young black male victims and their families. And so as we set up these policies, we're causing an even greater problem in our inner cities, because it just makes crime even worse. Because we're ending accountability, we're getting completely rid of it. And we're creating chaos, which means we're decreasing. We're decriminalizing crime, because we have no other choice. And that's why we see our urban cities going down this rabbit hole, or this hole that we would see, you know, now, Alice in Wonderland is just crazy.

Brian Nichols  7:19  
Well, and I think this is why it's so important to also to libertarians in my audience, because yeah, we are a more small l libertarian podcast. However, with that being said, there are very real, they're very real consequences to the policies we promote, if we don't use effective language. So when we're talking about bail reform, for example, we want that reform for nonviolent acts, right? That that's the difference is that we want to avoid situations where people are being harmed when no actual harm was committed, right. But well,

Ken Good  7:50  
we want to get rid of bail reform, bad bail reform, and we want to have good bail reform, we want to strengthen accountability, no matter whether it's a misdemeanor or felony. And we want to get rid of these bad bail reform measures, which gives up on accountability across the board.

Brian Nichols  8:05  
And I would love to specifically look at those those acts of violence, right. And violence isn't just when somebody takes a fist and punch somebody in the face. But there's a lot more to committing an act of violence against another individual can but when

Ken Good  8:19  
you're concentrating on violence, if you if you concentrate on violent offenses, then the politicians will change crimes like in California, they change certain felonies to misdemeanors, and they reclassify them. And so we're now setting up misdemeanors to be the training grounds for tomorrow's felonies. And so that's why I don't like that debate. I don't think that's a good debate for us to have. I don't think that's a good road for us to go down. Because if you set up a system where, okay, we're going to we're okay with this for misdemeanors, well, then, why have missed prosecution and misdemeanors? Because you can't hold him accountable. In California right now. They have an 80% failure to appear, right? Because they that's the type of system they use in California. Nobody can be accountable if they just decide not to come back to court or come to court. And so when you do that misdemeanor or felony, no matter what the crime, if you take away accountability, that's a green light, that scene is a green light to commit more crime. Use the Sanchez versus Alabama example. They had to live under a an injunction for four or five years across the board misdemeanor and felonies first six months was okay. Afterwards, crime just started going up across the board, because they realized that you couldn't do anything till they got it reversed at the Court of Appeals. And it took them six months to change the mindset and reinstate accountability, but they did it across the board. And that's the mentality. You know, Sanchez versus Alabama says there's hope for every inner city in the United States. We just have to change the mindset of the criminals and we have to reinstate accountability, not just for violent offenses for all offenses, your your our inner cities deserve public safety, not just for violent events is from any offense. can

Brian Nichols  10:03  
you articulate a little bit more about those nonviolent offenses? And let me give the context, right? Because your libertarians in the audience are listening. They say, Well, if there's no victim, is there a crime can and with that mentality, at the very least empathetic because we I saw the random stat, I can't remember the exact number, but it's like your average person commits three felonies a day or something like that. So I hear that if your average person is doing these things completely, like, unintentionally, because there are so many laws, right? And maybe this is the libertarian way we could approach this because there are so many laws. So let's maybe address the laws themselves, not so much the consequences, the laws, is that the argument kind of from your perspective,

Ken Good  10:48  
well, I'm always in favor of reanalyzing laws to determine what is actually a crime. I am this, I do not favor us having selective enforcement of of, of the laws that are on the books, because, you know, you get into the situation where you're in Harris County, it's not a crime, they're not gonna prosecute you. But montgomery county right next door in Texas, they are going to prosecute and so you have a sign right between on the border between Montgomery County and Harris County saying criminals beware, we support law enforcement and we prosecute crimes. I mean, we don't need to be that's that's not what we need. And on this argument of victimless crimes, I mean, we've seen that argument run amok, and it started in California, and you say, Well, you know, these are victimless crimes, because they're just shoplifting and shoplifting for the necessities of the world and, and see where it's gotten to now? I mean, is it victimless now that if stores are closing because they can't sell? They can't sustain $25,000 A day of shoplifting? Is it victimless crime now, where the Nancy Pelosi Federal Building is telling people don't come to work? Because it's not even safe to park your car around the building and walk into the building? Is it a victimless crime, if our commercial building, valuations are going down so low that you're selling properties for 30 35% of their value 40% of their value from a year ago? I mean, buildings can't, I mean, you get into this loop, the death spiral where they can't sell as satisfied their payment on the building, you're gonna have a lot of defaults. So I

Brian Nichols  12:26  
feel really quick, just just to make sure my point was clear, I find that actually to be a crime in which there is a victim, right, there is a very real victim and one we can trace back to, I guess, I'm thinking more of a victimless crime as like, I'm sitting at the stoplight, and it's not turning, and I see a no turn on red. But then I turn on red. And there's no cars coming. Like that's I guess we're on thing there is no victim, right? It was me making an act where I know for a fact I'm not harming someone else. But in the case you're outlining, I'm hearing a actual harm, like people are either the business owners, the building owners, the citizens of those respective areas, there's a very real harm to that, as you very much articulated there.

Ken Good  13:06  
Well, okay, so, okay, if there's a victimless crime, then why do we have it as a crime, we need to understand

whether it's crime, but okay, I would say me driving without a renewed registration on my car is by and large, victimless. But I have a really terrible story where I decided that I was just during the pandemic, I would just wouldn't go to renew it. And, you know, dadgummit, what are they going to do to me? Are they going to put me in jail, I have quite a bit of experience on bail reform. I know they can't put me in jail. But you know, those laws seem to be written for law abiding citizens, because in the end, I had to pay through the nose to get my registration updated. And you know what, by going through that they they suspended my driver's license too. So I had to go through quite a bit to get that all fixed. And so this victimless crime seems to be punishing law abiding citizens more than, than that the point that I would make finally is, you know, these things. The people who don't care is career criminals, organized crime, gangs, and they will take these victimless crimes and figure out a way to make a ton of money. I mean, we're really turning over our inner cities into to these groups and look at Portland, I use that as my best argument on libertarians is that, you know, you've seen there here's the consequence of getting rid of all laws on heavy drugs. And I mean, we're killing people. We're allowing people to overdose every day we're having we're setting new records. And you may not have liked the existing system, but that allowed a hammer to give persons a choice, go to rehab or go to jail to choice. Now they have a choice of do nothing and do drugs or go to rehab. What do you know, shock of all shocks, they're picking we're going to continue on drugs, and they're setting new records every day. On overdoses and we're just allowing it to happen. And I think that is a travesty. And it speaks very poorly of our society. So what we had a hammer to make them want to go to rehab, that should be what we have. I mean, if even if you're a libertarian, I think that you should acknowledge that the Portland little experiment we've been going through has been a complete failure.

Brian Nichols  15:23  
Agreed? No. And hey, if libertarians really want to get rid of the whole, like Portland argument, Somali argument, like all that stuff, let's just solve it. Argentina, Javier Malay. I'm all about that sounds good. Good idea. Just one to be the first ever libertarian president, we'll be watching his career with great interest. But can I have another question in terms of how bail reform actually helped get us to where we are today. But first, I'm gonna go ahead and give a quick shout out to everybody out there who wants to win one of these awesome, don't hurt people don't take people's stuff bumper sticker, you can win one of your very own bumper stickers. If you go to Brian Nichols show.com forward slash reviews, leave us a five star rating and review take a screenshot of said review then email me that review at Brian at Brian Nichols show.com. And you will be entered in yes to win one of these don't hurt people. And don't take people stuff bumper sticker. So make sure you go ahead get your five star rating and review in today. And of course, very pertinent don't hurt people and don't take their stuff, a bumper sticker to today's conversation, which goes to my question, Ken, and that is, let's talk about bail reform. bail reform has been a conversation that seems to have really been picking up steam over the past 1020 years. And of course, a lot of these progressive left leaning DBAs like your, your, what's his name from Philadelphia? Oh, my gosh, his name just escaped me. You know, I'm talking about da from Philadelphia crash?

Ken Good  16:47  
Yeah, I'm terrible at names.

Brian Nichols  16:50  
I was gonna say what a piece of work he has. Yes, he's just absolute gem of a human being. But you know, all these Soros funded DBAs that are across the United States, we're seeing they're leaning much more into this pro bail reform mentality. And I think you're using the cities as kind of a what a sandbox experiment to see the direct implications of their policies, or do they not care? Ken, what's your context there? And how to bail reform, really start to play a role in where these cities are today?

Ken Good  17:19  
Well, you know, we've always had, I mean, we're always looking for ways to improve the system. And so, but what we've seen in the last, you know, few, I wouldn't say 10, less than 10 years, 567 years is, we've seen not a push for a micro change, or a change something to improve, they want to throw something out and try something completely new. That's never been done before. And it started with pushes for what we call a risk assessment tool, which science has come out saying you shouldn't use. And so we started seeing, well, we need something to replace the private Bell industry. And you know that you were going to do that. And then we're like, Well, no, we're just going to release everybody. We're just going to release everybody on a personal bond, or whatever the equivalent is, we call it simple released across the United States. And because you know, by and large, people just want to come to court, they want to get their cases resolved. And what we have found over time is that is absolutely not true. People do not want to get their cases resolved. And if you set up systems like that, it creates chaos. And when you create chaos, that creates a backlog of cases, because the criminal justice system is very unique. If you're not present, they can't go forward on your case, the only thing they can do to go forward on your case, if you're not there is dismiss it. And so if no one comes to court, and they're adding the same number of cases all the time, the backlog gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And so and then you add a pandemic to where we didn't do anything for a year. And so you can just imagine the backlog is falling over and it's just drowning everybody. And so they're looking for ways to get rid of the backlog. And when nobody's coming to court, you got to just defacto decriminalization, because you got to dismiss those cases, to make room for the new ones. That's just a fact of life. And that's what we're seeing. I saw in Harris County in August, a year ago, I looked at their list of dismissals for the misdemeanor courts for the month, over 90% were dismissed. And so why are we even having misdemeanor courts? If I mean, if if we're going to dismiss over 90% of the cases, the one that we have the courts just go ahead and tell everybody we're going to get rid of misdemeanor crime and do a true libertarian approach because we're just doing it under the radar right now. In our inner cities. Yeah, well,

Brian Nichols  19:27  
it's picking winners and losers. This is where libertarians I think, really, really, really dislike government is when you see government, not just picking winners and losers, but picking good guys and bad guys, right? fairly early. And that's the part that's scary. Um, and I guess let me ask you this, because you know, we see the problem, but the solution sounds like it might be a little difficult to put our finger on. So Ken, on this show, we like to not just address problems but actually bring solutions to the table. What would you say would be a good starting off point to address this very real problem that we're facing, but not do so in a way that's going to put, I guess, undue harm or undue burden on the taxpayers of these cities that are trying to, I guess, save what little of their cities are left to be saved?

Ken Good  20:17  
Well, okay, first of all, the problem we have right now is we can't agree on the facts we can agree on, we can't even agree on whether crime is increasing. I was on a podcast debating with somebody that's, you know, from this law firm that's following all these lawsuits across the country. And they're the ones pushing the argues their arguments are the same as the National Party's talking points. And you can't even find a factual agreement. And you know, that always bugs the crap out of me, because as attorneys, we always agree on the facts. I mean, the facts are something that's supposed to be something we don't disagree about, we argue about the solutions, we argue about how do we apply policies, what are the policies that we can apply, but if we can't even agree on the facts, a simple fact of whether crime is increased in our inner cities, and we have people on the left, or people on one side of the spectrum, saying, oh, that's just a perception problem. That's not really true. Crime is really going down. But you got to NAACP and Oakland saying, we need a state of emergency on crime, because it's, it's so it's reached a tipping point. And so when you can't agree on the facts, that is a problem. Can you find compromise with those people? No. But I would say what's the solution go to Sanchez versus Alabama, they are the model for finding a solution. And the solution is accountability bring back upon accountability, these groups on the left, they've been arguing for policies that have all been rejected by the courts. And we now have a bunch of cases, there's only like two left's pending at the US Supreme Court. And if the supreme court accepts it, I don't think it's a good sign for him, I think it's a bad sign. So I think the days of of this type of litigation, pushing left wing reforms that the legislators would have never adopted, and then trying to bring them in through the courts, I think those days are coming to an end. And so we can go back to what works. I mean, we're, some of the things that are being tagged by the same people are things that we know in criminology that work, we know how to, you know, decrease crime, and we just have to recognize it. And just because you want to do something that works doesn't make you racist, because you want to do something that we know in criminology class works doesn't make you a terrible person. I mean, the reality is the reality. The facts are the facts, the fact that you don't want to agree with him, doesn't change, that there's still the facts. If we have a disproportionate amount of crime in our inner cities being committed by certain minority groups on those same minority groups, we need to treat those as crimes like we would against treat against any other group, whether it's minority the majority, we got to quit discounting crime for our or inner cities, because it's being committed by certain minorities on those same minorities. Can

Brian Nichols  22:57  
we do this little segment at the end of every episode called Final thoughts, and I'll kick things off, and I think, now, don't worry, I'll give you plenty of time here to to wrap your final thoughts up. So I know you got a lot to say. But I do want to call out one thing wasn't what you said. But rather, it's what libertarians do. And that is it's not just libertarians. By the way, I think libertarians embrace what I'm about to talk about. More. So because we are third place, we want to be accepted by the larger populace, by and large. But there has been this movement over the past 15 years that really has rooted itself in American culture. And that is the idea of eliminating stigma. Now, I'm all about eliminating bad stigma. But I'm not about eliminating good stigma. There are stigmas that are out there that are actually a good thing. You know, like saying drunk driving is a bad thing. Right? I don't see there not being a stigma towards that there shouldn't be a stigma. You should look at people who drunk drive with disdain, because they're putting not themselves when Yes, it is themselves, but they're putting other people at risk now putting other people in harm's way. There's a lot of other stigmas that for generations, we embrace because they just made sense. You don't want people get hurt. You don't take people stuff. You treat others the way you want to be treated. But it seems over the past 15 years, we've started to defer more and more and more to the idea of eliminating stigmas across the board, and not really looking at why was the stigma there in the first place. It kind of goes back to this old analogy, where you have two people walking out in the woods, that conservative and the liberal, the conservative or I guess leftist will say the conservative walks up and sees a fence in the middle of the woods. They say the fence here must be a reason that there's a fence here. And then the leftist sees the fence and says there's a fence here. Why are they trying to stop people from going forward? We're gonna go right over that fence. So you see that there is a difference in the approach, but there's a very Real, I guess reality that we need to address that the fence is there. And instead of just saying, you know, we're gonna go past this fence, we have to ask, why is the fence there? What's the point? What's the purpose of the fence and in this case, the fence equals stigma. stigmas exist for a reason whether it's encouraging people to stand up against violent acts, it's encouraged people to stand up against looting and rioting and protesting and mass and actually standing up for what you believe in gasp. I know, that is where I think we've lost the argument, really. And that is, we have stopped embracing the needs for stigma in the pursuit of trying to appease others in saying that stigmas don't matter, or at the very least saying that we should push away the stigma, push the stigma under the rug. And I think that's really led to where we are today. Now, granted, that's my, I guess, libertarian perspective. Can I know you have some thoughts as we wrap things up today? So what would you like to share with us as your final thoughts?

Ken Good  25:58  
Well, I think in a lot of ways, we're repeating the same mistakes that we made in the 60s, where we felt safe, we started being more generous in our criminal laws, we started releasing more people from jail before they had served their time. And even though they weren't showing that they had really learned anything, or that they had become rehabilitated. And so we're seeing the same things happen that happen in 60s, we're seeing crime go up. And so I think that we will have the same backlash if we're not careful. And the same backlash was a push for more law and order, because people deserve to be safe. And, and right now, there's a lot of people in our inner cities that don't feel safe. And I think if you look at some of these policies that are being pushed, I think they were being pushed from a political perspective, just to try to get more voters out. And now we're reaping the benefits of them, and it's causing more crime. And, you know, again, I go back to this debate. And, you know, I think the hypocrisy on one side right now is just ridiculous when they use statistics from nationally saying crime is going down, when the majority of our country is still using the old, the tried and true and tested method of, of bail, and they're getting people to come to court, and they're holding them accountable. And we're using those statistics to say crime is going down and saying crime, it's just a perception issue, even though in these pockets in our inner cities, where they're doing these new methods, which are taking away all accountability, crime is skyrocketing. And so the hypocrisy on the left to say, oh, crime is really going down. And there's just a perception issue, can you're just a whistle, a dog whistle for these arguments, and, and you go, you know, nude, that's, that's some gall that you've got some real gall. And I mean, I mean, we can't even we can't even have a debate. So. But I would say that for the people that are honest, and are good intentioned, I would say you're setting up policies that tie the hands of judges so that they can't do anything about gangs, career criminals are organized crime. And you know, what, those groups are figuring out ways to make money hand over fist when you do that. So you should not do anything that does that. And because it ends accountability. And you know, the last thing is a lot of these issues involve things that, you know, I've been told don't talk about this thing, don't talk about whether there's a disproportionate amount of crime. You know, I just did a podcast on on my podcast called The Bell post, it's the bell post.com where I did, somebody did a study in Minnesota, and they did a study on whether there is systemic racism in their in their court system. And they came back saying, No, there's not I mean, the numbers overwhelmingly show that there's not, and that's something you know, I was told don't do a podcast on that topic. Because, you know, it's just too hot, you will be attacked, you will be called a racist. And I'm like, a report is a report. I mean, the data is the data and we can't be afraid. Because I mean, I didn't take a position about whether it's true or not like, this should cause everybody concerns, because if these numbers are true, then the policies they're arguing is actually making the situation worse, because it allows these people to do even more crimes and commit more crimes in the inner city. So if you want more information on the types of things that I talked about, I think PBT x.com is our website. We have a blog, where we highlight important stories, we have our own podcast, the bail post.com, there's a link there on that website as well. And we just do all things criminal justice, bail reform related, and try to, you know, just state, here's the positions of law enforcement, really, if you wanna think about it, we use we want to say it's the balance free, but there's not any position that the balance is free states that the law enforcement doesn't say we're so closely aligned, what's good for one is going to be good for the other. So, you know, we just highlight all that we have a lot of guests from law enforcement from courts, and people doing studies and we and DBAs. And we just try to highlight the issues and we try to educate yourself. I've become so much more educated on talking about these issues just from having, having, I'm gonna say, having having to talk to people on a podcast because you learn about the issues. And then when you do a debate, and they're saying that you're a liar, and you can go, No, your argument that you're making right here was overturned by this case. Just I mean, six months ago, why are you still arguing this? You got overtired, but you're still arguing. I mean, nobody has a problem with that. So but thank you so much for allowing me to come and talk about all the craziness in the bail world. Oh,

Brian Nichols  30:38  
absolutely. can open open door policy here on The Brian Nichols Show forever Ken good and Yes, folks, if you got some value from today's episode, which I know you did, please go ahead and give it a share. When you do please tag yours truly at B. Nichols Liberty can find your ex.com as well as over on Facebook and also yes, the bell post please go ahead and support Ken's podcast you want to dig more into the world of law enforcement bail reform all that fun stuff. Links are in the show notes. And with that being said, Folks, some last minute housekeeping Yes, don't hurt people don't take people's stuff bumper sticker. Go ahead. Get your five star rating and review in email me that review Brian at Brian Nichols. show.com number one number two. Well, obviously you found us somewhere. You're either on the YouTubes on the videos on the audio wherever it is that you found the podcast. Well, guess what? You can find this a lot of other places too. So just in case you found us in the one place that you didn't work I guess you weren't looking for I don't know how to phrase that. But where can you find us audio version of the show, Apple podcasts, YouTube Music Spotify podcast attic, wherever it is you consume your podcast content, just go ahead, search The Brian Nichols Show, hit the subscribe button. By the way, we have like over 800 episodes in the entirety in the back channels, including episode 135 Where Ken was on the first time so go ahead and check out all those great past episodes. But also, for the video version of the show. We're on YouTube rumble we upload our entire episodes over to x.com. And also we are over on Ben swans, sovereign s o v r e n which yes, if you are watching us over on sovereign you're seeing today's episode before anybody else that's your sovereign exclusive. And one last final plug if you enjoy the content that we're bringing out here in The Brian Nichols Show if you enjoy the guests we have in the show like Ken and we're talking about very controversial issues like bail reform and yes, addressing the realities of our world. So please go ahead support the show you can do so either with a one time donation 510 2500. I don't care. I mean, I do care because it helps go right back into the show keeps the lights on allows us to have awesome conversations like this with Ken or if you want to become a recurring supporter, head over to Patreon you become a $5 a month supporter $10 a month, whatever it is that you want to go ahead and put into The Brian Nichols Show, I guarantee I'll make sure I take that and give it right back to you in terms of awesome content with awesome guests that will leave you what educated, enlightened and informed so that's all we have for you today. With that being said Brian Nichols starting off here and The Brian Nichols Show for Ken good. We'll see you next time.

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