Guidance for Grieving Pet Lovers: A special episode of The Cat Conversation

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the

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cat conversation where we are talking about

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cats and helping people understand them better.

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I am KJ, your kitty correspondent, and today

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is a very, very special episode of the cat

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conversation that I have wanted to do for

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a while. and also not wanted to do for a

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while because it's a very difficult topic.

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This is Guidance for Grieving Pet Lovers.

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And I want to take a moment to recognize

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everybody here at the Smitten Kitten Cat

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Cafe who has, made the choice today on your

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weekend to come and have this conversation

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because it's kind of hard to get Amped up

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for your weekend. We were like, let's go

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talk about my pain. Like that's not easy

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So thank you for making the choice to be

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a part of this and for you who might be watching

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or listening also, you know, I I applaud

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you because this is a difficult thing that

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we need to talk about more and we need to

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normalize more and your pain is real, your

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grief is real, and whether it has been years

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or it has been a couple of days, what you're

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feeling matters and there are resources to

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help you. So joining me today are a couple

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of those amazing resources I have with me,

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my first guest is Dr. Natalie Oldenstahl,

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and she has been with me for some of those

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difficult moments. We have had some very

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hard conversations. We've also had some very

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wonderful conversations about how to handle

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things gracefully. I would like for you to

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start off just by telling everybody that's

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watching and here and listening a little

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bit about yourself.

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So I'm Dr. Natalie Olmstall. I'm an integrative

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veterinarian. I work locally here in Westfield

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at the Integrative Veterinarian. Ironically,

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same name twice. I decided I want to be a

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vet when I was six. It's a long time. I've

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been doing it for a while. And as an integrative

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veterinarian, that means sometimes I see

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cases I'm the last person that people see.

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So sometimes because of that, that means

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that by the time I see that person, I may

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be the one to tell them that it may be time,

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because maybe they weren't ready to hear

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it before, or maybe it wasn't quite time,

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or maybe it wasn't put in a way that they

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felt that they could understand. I myself

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just lost my 18 and a half year old dog about

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three months ago. She was my last, last old

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dog that I had. And we were without dogs

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first time in 20 years, which was very odd.

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And this morning I was at an event and they

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had a pet memorial wall where you could write

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on it. And my daughter was with me, who's

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eight. And I said, do you want to write their

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names on the wall? And I, I teared up. You

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know, and I think, but it's okay, right?

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And I think that's what we're talking about

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today is that it's okay to feel those types

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of things.

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Yes, absolutely. And joining us on the panel

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is another amazing woman who's very passionate

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about this topic, Jane Rose. You are the

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founder of the Rose Pep Memorial Center,

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and you have taken a lot of people through

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this process that we are talking about today.

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So could you give us a little background

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on why this was so important to you that

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you actually created your business around

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it?

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Well, of course, thank you for having me.

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And Rose Pet Memorial Center opened in 2013,

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so we're celebrating our 11th year. My husband

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and I decided that this was an avenue we

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wanted to pursue because we didn't like the

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options available to us as pet parents. We

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wanted to make sure that the pets in our

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care are treated very respectfully. They're

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treated like family members. And we give

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our clients the time to spend with them before

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we move forward with their final determination.

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Sometimes people do burial. Sometimes, most

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of the time, they do cremation. But I just

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think it's important that people know they

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have the right to grieve for their pets.

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They have the right to talk about their pets.

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They shouldn't be ashamed when they lose

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a pet. Because losing a pet is sometimes

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harder than losing a human.

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I agree. My gosh, right? It's a very different

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relationship. And so you, of course, are

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going to grieve differently. I mean, there

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are times, but you know, if our pets could

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talk the secrets, they would tell people.

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They know more about us than, you know, than

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our closest humans. So having these conversations

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and having a safe space for people is so

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important. And I do think that we have come

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a long way. I think there are more people

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that do understand that it's not. just a

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pet and you know, and that there is a process,

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but I don't know that everybody understands

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how many resources are available or how to

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have those conversations with your vet and

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your care team about leading up to it. So

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before we even get into that like difficult,

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what do I do when they're gone? In particular,

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which is another, oh my gosh, everybody's

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crying already.

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That's okay. Here's our body's way of helping

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us reconcile loss. So if you can cry, then

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you're going to heal. Oh, Jane's going to

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make me cry.

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Exactly. Exactly. We put a lot of stigma

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on emotion, right? I think we're doing better,

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right? I think we're doing better. I think

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the newer generations, right? There's a lot

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of emotions, but sometimes when it's a hard

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emotion, it is still hard for us to put it

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out there or to acknowledge that we even

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have it. And I think that's a big thing too.

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To acknowledge that grief is messy, and we

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want it to be linear. I think we've all heard

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the stages of grief. And whether it's a pet

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or a human, we would like it to be that way.

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So we can be like, OK, done with that.

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But that's the way it goes. No, it's more

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like an ocean with the tide. It comes in

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and goes out. You may experience some of

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those steps that people identified It was

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a woman that actually came up with that model

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like 40 years ago. But it's not like, okay,

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I'm in this step. I'm now going to move to

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this step. It doesn't work like that. You

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may be farther along and then you go back

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down here. So you just have to roll with

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your feelings and acknowledge them and not

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try to put yourself in a box.

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Well, and, and also to know that when they

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hit you, like, It's okay And that we're going

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to talk about some ways to deal with that

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and have some resources and I promised uh,

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katie, we weren't going to cry the entire

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time So so well, let me you know, let me

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help you laugh at me. Um, I Many of you know

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last year we had we had two cats that that

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passed a month apart and the first one was

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Beautiful and I wrote a whole blog about

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it the graceful goodbye oh, we had Jada and

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she was in, we had a fire going and all the

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cats were around us and we gave her her good

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days and we said goodbye. And then, you know,

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and listen, I'm not gonna tell the whole

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story about Rhodey cause nobody's heard it

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cause it's too much trauma. It's about a

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year, but you know, he went to the vet for

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a dental and was in perfectly good hands

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and never even got to the dental. He had

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some sort of weird thing happen and he just

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died and you don't, take your pet to a dental

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thinking that's gonna happen, right? So there

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was a lot of trauma there. And this week

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I called because I had an email exchange

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with Dr. Oldenstahl and I said, hey, I think

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Melody, we've talked about having a dental,

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she's been sick. I think, is she healthy

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enough? Do you feel good about doing it?

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And she was like, yep, let's do it. And so

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I called the integrative veterinary clinic

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and I'm like, I want to make an appointment

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for Melody. for her dental. And she said,

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okay, well, it's going to be a little harder

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to get her in with Dr. O, but we could schedule

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you with one of the other doctors a lot sooner.

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And I started crying.

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Because it's all tied into the word dental.

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Right? And I mean, like, out of nowhere,

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I'm like, okay.

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And I know this girl is like, okay, she's

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going to need a minute. I don't know why.

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My last dental was very traumatic, and it

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needs to be doctor. Oh, because it has to

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be someone I know. No offense to your doctors.

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I'm sure they're wonderful." And she's like,

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okay, we'll just skip it ahead to here's

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the next appointment.

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But, you know, I hung up the phone, and I'm

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like, for crying out loud, it's been a year,

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and I can't say the word dental, but that

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was... No, you can't.

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Right? You can't. And that's okay. It is

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okay. Yeah.

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And that's where you are right now. That's

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called a grief burst. That's where You called

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to make the appointment. It brought back

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everything you were experiencing when you

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lost your kitty. Yeah. And the same with

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you at the Pet Memorial Wall. Yes. They hit

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you at the most unexpected times. And it's

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totally normal. And it's a totally regular

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part of mourning.

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Well, thank you. I called my husband, Producer

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Patches, and I was like, that poor girl that

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answered that phone.

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She's not scheduling any more dental. She's

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done. She's all done.

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If anybody does dental today, she's going

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to be like, please hold somebody else's call.

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So as we're talking about the process of

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grieving, there's a process that I think

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is very interesting. And some of us maybe

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have it with our parents as they get older,

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but we have it a lot more with our pets because

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we have the option with our pets to understand

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where they're at, what their comfort level

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is, and what we can do about it. And while

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that's great, it's also a huge responsibility.

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And we end up asking ourselves, is it the

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right time? Is it Not the right time and

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then you're done and you're like did did

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I wait too long? Did I do it too soon? And

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so I wanted to kind of you know move the

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conversation into that anticipatory grief

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that we experience as pet lovers and something

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that you are constantly dealing with. So

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can you talk a little bit to us from a veterinarian

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standpoint about how we can best serve our

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pets and have those conversations and communicate

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properly with you so you know how to help

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us serve our pets?

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So one thing I wanted to say about that was

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that I think that when you have a pet that

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has chronic disease and then they continue

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to go on, like we thought they would go downhill

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maybe faster than what they were doing, I

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feel like it builds it up and we almost feel

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like the train will never end. And it makes

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it much harder than a pet that maybe is in

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an acute situation where the option is clear,

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right? The pet is bleeding, that there's

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some type of trauma, like there is no option,

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right? There is no other way to approach

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this. And I've actually talked about this

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several times recently because I've had some

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chronic patients recently and said, you know,

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because they are still here, then like I

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said, it's like it's not going to end. And

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so that kind of grieving period that they

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have started, it's like they're stuck in

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it and they're not moving forward or backwards

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with it because they don't have more information

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that's coming in to tell them that it's progressing.

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And so then when it does happen, and I have

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to say the words, you know, I really think

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we need to talk about this because I think

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it's that time. Sometimes, sometimes it's,

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well, obviously it's hard to have that conversation,

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but sometimes it's hard in the veterinary

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community for veterinarians to take that

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step. And they want to be very compassionate,

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empathetic, and they don't tell you directly

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that it's time. I am unfortunately a little

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more blunt and I like to give you guys information

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that you need because it is such a hard decision

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that if I can give you some type of information

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that you can process through this emotional

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onslaught that you're going through, some

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type of physical or objective evidence that

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we can look at. There are different types

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of quality of life scores. Ohio State has

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a really good one that quantitates it. And

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so sometimes that's a really good thing that

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I will send home with people and I'll have

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everyone in the family do it individually.

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and then come together and talk so that no

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one was influenced when they did their numeric

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system. So we can kind of get an idea about

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how everyone is feeling. And sometimes more

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people than you realize are on that page

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and they just weren't ready to say it because

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they didn't want to offend mom or dad or

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their friend or whatever it was. But it's

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a long process. And I don't think it makes

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the actual part when we get there easier

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because we've been thinking about it for

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so long. Jane, did you have anything to say

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with that type of?

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Well, anticipatory grief is a real thing,

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and sometimes it's even worse than grief

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after you have lost a pet, because every

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day you get up and you don't know if your

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pet is going to still be alive. You don't

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know when you come home from work, if they're

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still going to be alive. You don't want them

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to suffer, but you don't want to play God.

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And then you wrestle with this with yourself.

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And something, I mean, the Ohio State score

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test is like the best thing that you can

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do. If you, I also tell people, you know,

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look at a calendar, take a calendar, and

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you put a check mark for a good day, and

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an X for a bad day. And when you get to the

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point that you're having more bad days than

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good days, then you probably need to assess,

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am I keeping this pet here for me? Or is

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the pet really, do they have a quality of

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life?

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Has anyone done that score before? Have you?

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I did. Yeah, I sent it to you. It really

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is. It's so helpful, and I hope it helped

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you guys as well, to be able to just go,

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you know, on a scale of this, this, this,

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and there have been times that we've done

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it that we've been surprised that maybe we

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were, like, we were like, we're ready, and

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then the score's like, well, maybe they're

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still doing okay.

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I mean, it's, if they're not suffering, And

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you would probably agree with this, too.

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And it's, you know, and they're still have

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a fairly good quality of life. And yes, they

15:04.799 --> 15:06.781
can stay. They were happy to stay as long

15:06.821 --> 15:09.063
as we need them to. But you do have to assess

15:09.683 --> 15:14.047
the reasons why you are determining if you're

15:14.067 --> 15:16.169
letting them stay for you or themselves.

15:16.850 --> 15:20.493
So in having the conversation with the vet,

15:20.774 --> 15:26.229
there are many times where I think We, and

15:26.269 --> 15:28.631
you will, but a lot of it's, like you said,

15:28.651 --> 15:30.052
a lot of it's still, a lot of people are

15:30.112 --> 15:33.255
like, you know, I want the vet to tell me

15:33.315 --> 15:37.718
it's time. That we can't, and I'm just gonna

15:37.758 --> 15:40.580
speak because I have seen this happen in

15:40.600 --> 15:43.002
the veterinary community. We actually, there's

15:43.042 --> 15:45.164
another responsibility for us and that is

15:45.204 --> 15:48.247
to not put it on the vet, right? That what

15:48.967 --> 15:50.949
the staff goes through, the people that work

15:51.009 --> 15:54.630
in veterinary medicine, They are going through

15:54.650 --> 15:57.752
a lot. And so if you don't get that answer.

15:57.852 --> 15:59.933
It's very important that you communicate.

16:00.033 --> 16:02.055
One of the things that I've learned and working

16:02.075 --> 16:05.057
with you is the conversation changes very

16:05.117 --> 16:08.557
much when you say to your vet. I just want

16:08.597 --> 16:10.678
them to be comfortable. Because it's your

16:10.839 --> 16:14.341
vet's job to tell you everything that's available

16:14.422 --> 16:17.224
medical. We can do this. We could do this.

16:17.304 --> 16:20.727
We could do this. But it's your pet. And

16:20.787 --> 16:24.190
what is the level of testing and procedures

16:24.790 --> 16:26.712
that you would like your pet to go through

16:27.313 --> 16:29.575
and what do you want to go through and what

16:29.615 --> 16:32.338
can you afford? And a vet can't answer those

16:32.398 --> 16:36.142
questions for you. So if you are in a place

16:36.602 --> 16:38.864
where you don't care how many good days they

16:38.925 --> 16:40.887
have, and that's what we talk about a lot,

16:40.947 --> 16:43.309
right? It's how many good days they have.

16:43.990 --> 16:45.831
If you're in a place where you say, I don't

16:46.572 --> 16:48.753
I don't care how many good days they have.

16:49.233 --> 16:52.715
I just want them to be good. It opens up

16:52.775 --> 16:55.696
a new conversation where things like maybe

16:55.756 --> 16:58.917
steroids or medicines that aren't long-term

16:59.457 --> 17:01.858
going to be great things are short-term going

17:01.878 --> 17:03.619
to help them have good days.

17:04.239 --> 17:06.280
And one thing, there's a couple phrases that

17:06.300 --> 17:08.021
I use a lot. One of them I say, especially

17:08.041 --> 17:09.821
if I have a pet that has a terminal chronic

17:09.841 --> 17:13.283
disease and they're on the train, right?

17:13.303 --> 17:14.984
That train is moving. We know where the train

17:15.044 --> 17:17.657
is going to go. So, and what I tell people

17:17.697 --> 17:19.939
is, in that situation, there is no right

17:20.279 --> 17:23.301
answer. Meaning, if you make a decision at

17:23.381 --> 17:25.983
any point of time, knowing that their quality

17:26.003 --> 17:27.944
of life is going to continue to decrease,

17:28.725 --> 17:31.267
how do we need them to get all the way that

17:31.307 --> 17:33.388
close to the station? But they need to experience

17:33.468 --> 17:35.370
all of that, right, if we already know where

17:35.390 --> 17:38.109
they're going. Or are we OK to wait until

17:38.149 --> 17:40.830
we get more signals as well? And that's why

17:40.870 --> 17:42.891
there's no right or wrong answer. There's

17:42.951 --> 17:45.912
no right choice. And sometimes that gives

17:45.952 --> 17:47.493
people a little bit of power knowing that

17:47.513 --> 17:48.934
they're not doing something wrong by not

17:48.954 --> 17:51.235
doing it tomorrow. Because now they've talked

17:51.255 --> 17:52.916
to me and they're like, well, I didn't do

17:52.976 --> 17:55.497
it. I want everyone to feel that they have

17:55.517 --> 17:57.198
the information that they need so they can

17:57.218 --> 17:59.899
make that understanding what they can do.

18:00.783 --> 18:03.325
I had a client many years ago who I had worked

18:03.366 --> 18:05.808
with for a long time. Her pet had diabetes

18:06.508 --> 18:08.330
and had managed very well for a long time.

18:09.011 --> 18:12.794
And the dog had gone downhill very rapidly.

18:12.814 --> 18:14.616
It was not something that we could do anything

18:14.656 --> 18:16.998
for at that point. She came in with her friend.

18:17.038 --> 18:18.820
Her friend drove her. And in the parking

18:18.860 --> 18:20.502
lot, I come out to greet her and she said,

18:20.562 --> 18:23.485
Dr. Oldenstall, why are you making me do

18:23.545 --> 18:28.553
this? Well, I didn't make her do it. I don't

18:28.573 --> 18:30.394
have that kind of power. Ask my husband.

18:30.434 --> 18:34.216
I do not have that kind of power. But she

18:34.556 --> 18:36.117
was angry about it, right? Because she had

18:36.197 --> 18:37.778
so much. I mean, she had done so much for

18:37.798 --> 18:39.479
this dog. And this dog had done so well for

18:39.559 --> 18:41.300
so long with a chronic disease. But then

18:41.340 --> 18:43.281
we were in a place we couldn't go any farther.

18:43.901 --> 18:45.804
And so she wrote me a letter two months,

18:46.064 --> 18:47.726
two or three months later saying, you know,

18:47.867 --> 18:49.409
how grateful she was at that time, you know,

18:49.429 --> 18:51.211
that it was the right time and that I was

18:51.251 --> 18:54.295
there to help her give that little push and

18:54.335 --> 18:56.258
that understanding that it was the right

18:56.318 --> 18:58.321
time for that dog. So, but I'll always remember,

18:58.521 --> 19:00.984
why are you making me do this? But that's

19:01.064 --> 19:04.646
okay. Like you said, it's okay. She's expressing

19:04.686 --> 19:05.166
how she felt.

19:05.186 --> 19:07.668
She is. But it's unfortunate that she, you

19:07.708 --> 19:10.029
know, a lot of times people blame their vet

19:10.349 --> 19:12.411
for a condition their animal has. That is

19:13.011 --> 19:14.792
beyond the vet's control. They want your

19:14.912 --> 19:18.414
animal to live as much as you do. But, you

19:18.474 --> 19:21.496
know, they have seen many animals with many

19:21.556 --> 19:24.778
different illnesses and chronic conditions.

19:24.978 --> 19:27.079
And unfortunately, they know where the train

19:27.119 --> 19:30.021
station is. And if you are going to prompt

19:30.221 --> 19:32.022
them with that question, then you probably

19:32.062 --> 19:34.883
need to seriously consider what they respond

19:34.903 --> 19:35.203
to you.

19:35.724 --> 19:37.544
And I know, I know we're going to step to

19:37.584 --> 19:39.125
the next topic. But one thing I want to say,

19:39.165 --> 19:42.006
too, is sometimes when people come in, and

19:42.046 --> 19:44.047
they open that conversation, like you said

19:44.087 --> 19:46.668
about, are they comfortable, right? Is their

19:46.708 --> 19:48.789
quality good? I always say to them, there's

19:48.829 --> 19:51.290
a reason why you brought that up today. Yes.

19:51.590 --> 19:54.351
because you already know the answer to this

19:54.451 --> 19:57.072
question. We just need to have that conversation.

19:57.492 --> 19:59.552
But you guys know, you already know, you

19:59.572 --> 20:01.433
would not be in my office or on the phone

20:01.773 --> 20:03.613
or even, you know, showing up or thinking

20:03.633 --> 20:05.394
about these things unless you knew that that's

20:05.914 --> 20:08.495
where we needed to be in some capacity. So,

20:08.835 --> 20:08.995
yeah.

20:10.775 --> 20:14.316
And then we, you know, we get through that

20:14.777 --> 20:21.370
and we have the moment and then I I always

20:21.790 --> 20:23.631
you know, we've we've talked about this like

20:23.651 --> 20:26.834
that moment that they're gone is so heavy

20:27.214 --> 20:29.756
You know like and it's like how am I like

20:29.836 --> 20:31.938
what just happened? Like it was so fast and

20:31.978 --> 20:36.061
now I have to move forward Right, and and

20:36.161 --> 20:37.562
you don't know what to do and don't look

20:37.582 --> 20:41.926
at me kayla You as my sister have made it

20:41.966 --> 20:44.408
with me far too many times to look at me

20:44.748 --> 20:46.970
with your big tears in your eyes Do not look

20:47.030 --> 20:56.362
at your sister And so there are resources

20:56.462 --> 20:59.224
with your vet that you can have the conversation.

20:59.724 --> 21:02.386
And I highly recommend, even though it's

21:02.506 --> 21:08.110
really hard, planning for it, right? Thinking

21:08.150 --> 21:11.012
through those things. So when you open up

21:11.092 --> 21:15.433
the conversation of comfort, Be brave enough

21:15.513 --> 21:18.335
to open up the conversation about what I'm

21:18.656 --> 21:21.698
going to do that day. Because you don't have

21:21.758 --> 21:24.441
to do it in that moment, but you are helping

21:24.481 --> 21:26.923
yourself and your pet by planning ahead.

21:27.063 --> 21:31.527
And that's part of where you came in, Jane,

21:31.567 --> 21:34.770
because there wasn't a lot of resources.

21:35.622 --> 21:37.704
I mean, you know, for a long time, vets got

21:37.784 --> 21:40.267
pushed into doing funeral care because there

21:40.287 --> 21:41.869
was nobody else to do it for the animals.

21:41.969 --> 21:44.211
There were not other options for them. And

21:44.251 --> 21:45.833
the last thing they went to school to do

21:45.913 --> 21:48.636
was to, you know, take care of deceased pets.

21:48.696 --> 21:49.417
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Right. Sure.

21:49.437 --> 21:51.239
Dr. Anneke Vandenbroek But to those of us

21:51.279 --> 21:53.341
who are pet lovers, we know how much we love

21:53.381 --> 21:56.144
our babies and how we want them to be treated

21:56.204 --> 21:59.067
with respect. And, um, you know, there's

21:59.087 --> 22:00.948
a lot of fallacies out there. Some people

22:00.988 --> 22:03.310
think that they can't take their pet home

22:03.350 --> 22:05.512
to show it to their other pets and that's

22:05.572 --> 22:08.574
totally untrue. I mean, if your pet is very

22:08.654 --> 22:10.876
damaged, has been in an accident, I would

22:11.016 --> 22:13.878
say probably, you know, you need to determine

22:13.918 --> 22:15.900
if you can handle that yourself. Sure.

22:16.040 --> 22:18.242
But, um, or if you're in an emotional state

22:18.282 --> 22:20.323
where you shouldn't be driving back and forth

22:20.343 --> 22:22.885
and someone cannot drive you and you're pet.

22:23.105 --> 22:25.546
Yes. So even if you're doing euthanasia,

22:25.986 --> 22:27.607
you still have the option to take your pet

22:27.647 --> 22:30.728
home. You can spend time with them. Some

22:30.748 --> 22:33.108
people, the Buddhists believe that the body

22:33.169 --> 22:35.389
does not leave the soul or the soul does

22:35.449 --> 22:37.270
not leave the body for three days. So my

22:37.290 --> 22:39.311
Buddhist clients keep the body at home for

22:39.371 --> 22:42.692
three days. Then they bring me the pet. So,

22:43.592 --> 22:46.133
you know, it's a very individual type thing,

22:46.173 --> 22:49.012
but It used to be you go to the vet, your

22:49.253 --> 22:51.793
pet is euthanized, you say your goodbyes

22:51.873 --> 22:55.494
and you leave sobbing. You know, I offer

22:55.634 --> 22:57.575
all of your clients, all my clients have

22:57.595 --> 22:58.995
the option to spend more time with their

22:59.035 --> 23:01.236
pets if they want to do that. Some people

23:01.276 --> 23:03.016
are good with that. They've already said

23:03.056 --> 23:04.917
their goodbyes. They've prepared. Other people

23:04.977 --> 23:07.417
really appreciate having that opportunity

23:07.458 --> 23:10.398
to have one last goodbye. So, you know, as

23:10.458 --> 23:13.079
far as planning goes, you need to think about,

23:13.099 --> 23:15.240
OK, am I going to bury or am I going to do

23:15.280 --> 23:18.221
cremation? I have some people who have actually

23:18.241 --> 23:20.924
had their pets freeze dried and stuffed.

23:21.424 --> 23:24.947
That is an option. It's, I would say I've

23:24.967 --> 23:27.469
had three in 13 or 12 years. So it's not

23:27.489 --> 23:29.591
something that happens a lot. I will tell

23:29.631 --> 23:31.452
you, your pet will not come back and look

23:31.532 --> 23:34.255
exactly like the pet you've lost. You cannot

23:34.355 --> 23:36.637
recreate the spirit that is in your animal.

23:36.717 --> 23:39.018
It just, it doesn't work. But you know, you

23:39.058 --> 23:41.699
may have a special urn that you want to get

23:41.739 --> 23:44.060
for your pet. You may want to have jewelry

23:44.160 --> 23:46.982
made. There's all kinds of options and things

23:47.022 --> 23:49.863
you can do to honor your pet after they've

23:49.943 --> 23:53.044
passed. And yes, it's not the same as having

23:53.364 --> 23:56.005
our beloved pets here with us, but it still

23:56.046 --> 23:58.627
gives you some peace to know that, you know,

23:58.667 --> 24:01.108
you have a pet with you. Like I have my girl

24:01.168 --> 24:03.769
Sugar on today. Sugar was a great Pyrenees

24:03.809 --> 24:05.630
who worked with me at the Memorial Center

24:05.670 --> 24:08.491
for 10 years. Oh my goodness. And I have

24:08.791 --> 24:10.973
a piece of her jewelry on almost every day.

24:10.993 --> 24:14.014
That, it's so cool that they can do that

24:14.054 --> 24:14.995
with the jewelry.

24:15.015 --> 24:16.456
I wear Buster, I don't have him on right

24:16.496 --> 24:17.936
now, but I wear him every day. You didn't

24:17.956 --> 24:19.217
bring Buster today. I didn't bring Buster,

24:19.237 --> 24:23.720
I know, I'm sorry. But I wear Buster every

24:23.740 --> 24:26.281
day and I always, I tell people, I say Buster's

24:26.301 --> 24:27.722
still helping people because then I show

24:28.663 --> 24:31.246
to people. He's in a necklace that's in silver

24:32.107 --> 24:33.810
from a company who does a really nice job

24:33.830 --> 24:38.115
with that. And some people don't know that's

24:38.175 --> 24:38.876
a possibility.

24:39.016 --> 24:41.459
I have no idea. And if you don't want glass,

24:41.680 --> 24:43.662
you can take some of their cremains and put

24:43.702 --> 24:46.865
it in. silver, as far as like silver pendants.

24:46.945 --> 25:13.062
I mean, some of my pendants start at $30.

24:49.266 --> 24:51.268
And you know what? They're stainless steel.

24:51.748 --> 24:54.089
Almost everybody can afford $30. And that

24:54.150 --> 24:55.831
gives them the option to be able to have

24:55.891 --> 24:58.753
their pet close to them. Some people hang

24:58.793 --> 25:00.914
it in their car on the rear view mirror.

25:01.354 --> 25:03.576
I mean, there's just so many things. And

25:03.636 --> 25:05.857
I've tried to find things on the human funeral

25:05.897 --> 25:08.239
side and bring them over the pet side so

25:08.279 --> 25:10.280
that my clients have different and unique

25:10.300 --> 25:12.341
ways that they can honor their pets after

25:12.382 --> 25:13.062
they've passed.

25:13.917 --> 25:18.242
So what are, for you, Jane, what, what are

25:18.302 --> 25:21.265
some of the most common things that when

25:21.305 --> 25:25.650
people come to you to prepare, like that

25:25.730 --> 25:28.933
we would be, those questions we would be

25:29.073 --> 25:31.556
answering to kind of help you help us be

25:31.596 --> 25:33.078
ready for when the day comes?

25:33.968 --> 25:36.029
Sure. So one of the biggest concerns that

25:36.089 --> 25:38.310
almost every pet parent has with cremation

25:38.690 --> 25:40.590
is, am I getting my pet back?

25:40.610 --> 25:42.511
That is always the question.

25:43.091 --> 25:46.413
And in Indiana, unfortunately, pet cremation

25:46.553 --> 25:49.514
is not regulated. So we have people in our

25:49.554 --> 25:51.654
community who are not doing what they say

25:51.674 --> 25:54.857
they are offering. um they use language that

25:54.897 --> 25:57.379
sometimes you don't understand because I

25:57.399 --> 25:59.842
mean who goes out and researches pet cremation

25:59.882 --> 26:02.085
on a daily basis. It's not something I want

26:02.105 --> 26:02.445
to Google.

26:02.545 --> 26:04.207
Well especially in an emotional state. Right.

26:04.227 --> 26:05.168
That you need to be thinking about.

26:05.208 --> 26:06.650
Yes and you don't you don't want to think

26:06.690 --> 26:09.152
about that. So um you know that's something

26:09.192 --> 26:11.995
that as a pet mentor myself is very important

26:12.336 --> 26:14.899
that your pet is only cremated by itself

26:15.419 --> 26:18.241
We put them um in a bed with soft blankets.

26:18.541 --> 26:20.862
That's how they stay until we do the cremation.

26:21.322 --> 26:23.624
We tie a ribbon around their leg with a metal

26:23.684 --> 26:26.165
ID tag so I know where they are at all times.

26:26.665 --> 26:28.426
And you know your pet is being returned to

26:28.486 --> 26:30.807
you. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, it comes

26:30.847 --> 26:33.429
all the way through. And um, you know, you

26:34.830 --> 26:36.571
just, I think that is probably the biggest

26:36.611 --> 26:40.553
concern people have. And um, you know, that

26:40.573 --> 26:42.734
you can do nose prints, you can do paw prints,

26:42.794 --> 26:45.975
we do clay, we do ink. Uh, some people want

26:45.995 --> 26:48.476
to have, we always do fur clippings unless

26:48.496 --> 26:50.917
somebody doesn't want them. Usually the comment

26:50.977 --> 26:54.458
is I already have their fur all over my house.

26:54.878 --> 26:59.620
I'll just, don't lie back here. But when

26:59.680 --> 27:01.282
I do their fur clippings, I take it from

27:01.322 --> 27:03.123
four places on their body. I take it from

27:03.203 --> 27:05.865
over their ear, over their eye, across their

27:05.905 --> 27:08.086
back, and over their heart. And then I give

27:08.106 --> 27:10.368
the pet parent a poem that talks about the

27:10.428 --> 27:12.830
significance of those four places. Because

27:12.950 --> 27:14.831
everything about your pet, we want to try

27:14.931 --> 27:17.593
to preserve everything we had about them

27:17.633 --> 27:20.675
that we loved. And even at that emotional

27:20.735 --> 27:23.017
state when you don't know what you want to

27:23.037 --> 27:24.998
do, most people know what they don't want

27:25.038 --> 27:27.179
to do, but they don't know what they want

27:27.240 --> 27:29.881
to do. And that is very typical when you

27:29.941 --> 27:33.043
are in anticipatory grief to be in that state.

27:34.605 --> 27:36.546
Well, and I wanted to touch base on children,

27:36.566 --> 27:39.248
just for a minute. Yes, please. Because children

27:39.308 --> 27:42.270
is a huge, you know, part of this. Ages,

27:42.430 --> 27:43.731
different things like that. Should they be

27:43.771 --> 27:45.792
present? Should they not be present? Oftentimes

27:45.832 --> 27:48.134
when that conversation is started, the child

27:48.194 --> 27:49.635
is obviously usually not present, right?

27:50.135 --> 27:52.677
So one of the things that I do is try to

27:52.917 --> 27:55.138
arm the person with a child with as much

27:55.198 --> 27:56.980
information as they can so they can go home

27:57.020 --> 27:59.361
and have this conversation. A lot of times

27:59.521 --> 28:01.343
the children are more aware than we think.

28:01.483 --> 28:04.345
They know Fluffy is not doing as well, right?

28:04.645 --> 28:06.906
The dog does not go on the walks. You know,

28:06.986 --> 28:09.079
she lays on the floor. right? So a lot of

28:09.099 --> 28:11.000
times they understand that they may or may

28:11.020 --> 28:13.022
not have had a human family member, right,

28:13.062 --> 28:14.803
that has passed. They've been to a funeral.

28:16.204 --> 28:17.385
My children, unfortunately, have been to

28:17.425 --> 28:19.987
many funerals, it seems like. And so some

28:20.007 --> 28:21.448
of the things that I tell people about is

28:22.208 --> 28:24.570
ask your child if they want to be present,

28:25.031 --> 28:27.612
okay? Ask them, because even if they're very

28:27.692 --> 28:30.134
young, And I did this with my own children,

28:30.154 --> 28:31.155
because like I said, unfortunately, they've

28:31.175 --> 28:33.597
been through human and pet on both sides.

28:33.957 --> 28:36.099
And I asked them. And a lot of times, people

28:36.159 --> 28:38.761
feel that if they say yes, then they're stuck.

28:39.622 --> 28:41.723
No. A lot of times, children will come. They

28:41.763 --> 28:43.785
may be teenagers or younger. They'll come,

28:44.045 --> 28:45.967
and then they will be present maybe for the

28:46.007 --> 28:48.429
first portion of it, the sedation. And then

28:48.449 --> 28:50.746
they want to step outside. But they can do

28:50.806 --> 28:52.107
that. They're still there. They're still

28:52.147 --> 28:53.569
present. They can come back in if they want

28:53.589 --> 28:56.252
to or not. If it's at home, right, if someone's

28:56.272 --> 28:58.215
doing a home euthanasia with a service that

28:58.255 --> 29:00.998
does that, then thinking about where you

29:01.038 --> 29:02.540
want that to occur in the home, who you want

29:02.560 --> 29:05.043
to be present for that, I don't recommend

29:05.123 --> 29:07.886
that your other pets be present for the actual

29:07.946 --> 29:10.609
procedure, okay? They can come and smell

29:10.649 --> 29:12.691
everything, then take them away while the

29:12.791 --> 29:15.013
actual event occurs and then bring them back

29:15.234 --> 29:17.736
in because they very much understand there's

29:17.756 --> 29:19.477
a different feeling. I used to do house call

29:19.558 --> 29:22.420
euthanasias. I've seen dogs or cats come

29:22.500 --> 29:24.502
in and smell a body and kind of walk off.

29:24.842 --> 29:26.624
I've had some that come into the room and

29:26.644 --> 29:29.547
they stop and they walk around like a bomb.

29:29.767 --> 29:32.368
like a 10 foot radius, you know, and it's

29:32.408 --> 29:35.090
just, it's incredible because just 15 minutes

29:35.170 --> 29:37.471
prior to that, right, they were there and

29:37.511 --> 29:39.052
they, but I think it's really important.

29:39.072 --> 29:40.893
And if you can't, if you're not in the home,

29:40.953 --> 29:42.974
then bring a blanket from home that will

29:43.014 --> 29:45.235
be with that pet that then you take home

29:45.255 --> 29:47.176
with you to put on the floor for your other

29:47.196 --> 29:48.937
pets to smell. I think that's really important.

29:49.337 --> 29:51.019
So once again, ask your kids, see where they

29:51.039 --> 29:53.361
want to go. For younger children, a lot of

29:53.401 --> 29:55.403
times, because emotions are hard, right?

29:55.443 --> 29:56.604
And when you're a kid, like you have a lot

29:56.644 --> 29:57.865
of emotions and you don't really know what

29:57.885 --> 30:00.308
to do with them. I tell them, I ask the parents,

30:00.328 --> 30:02.692
I say, have them write a letter. to their

30:02.712 --> 30:05.533
pet or draw a picture. Or the other thing

30:05.553 --> 30:07.274
that I do, especially if they're going to

30:07.354 --> 30:08.894
have cremains or they're going to bury the

30:08.934 --> 30:10.895
pet, is I have them get a plain pillowcase

30:10.935 --> 30:13.436
and decorate it. And I cannot tell you how

30:13.456 --> 30:15.837
many parents have taken photos of that right

30:15.857 --> 30:18.618
before it went, or I had one who came in

30:18.658 --> 30:20.458
with a picture and then they said, can we

30:20.498 --> 30:22.219
photocopy this and send the photocopy? I

30:22.259 --> 30:24.880
want the original, you know? And so, so anything

30:24.900 --> 30:26.640
that we can give the child, you know, a connection

30:26.680 --> 30:28.061
to that emotion that they're feeling, because

30:28.081 --> 30:30.001
especially if they choose not to be present,

30:30.301 --> 30:32.943
then how does Fluffy know? that they, that

30:32.983 --> 30:35.324
they are there with them. And then you, they

30:35.384 --> 30:36.725
love them, and then you can still send that

30:36.805 --> 30:38.586
with them. Right. And I think that's, that's

30:38.626 --> 30:42.629
really important. And so my daughter, when

30:42.669 --> 31:09.891
we put our first dog to sleep, he was 16

30:44.870 --> 30:48.613
and a half. And that was their first home

30:48.693 --> 30:50.654
pet, right, that wasn't like Grandma's dog

30:50.734 --> 30:52.896
or something that had passed. And she said,

30:52.916 --> 30:54.797
because we had talked about how, you know,

30:54.818 --> 30:56.459
the soul can come back potentially, you know,

30:56.519 --> 30:58.180
in another being or, you know, something

30:58.200 --> 31:00.282
like that. And she said, Mommy, she said,

31:00.382 --> 31:02.865
how does he know when he's ready to come

31:02.905 --> 31:05.607
back? And I said, well, he knows like he

31:05.727 --> 31:07.989
they just know. And she said, Mommy, she

31:08.049 --> 31:09.891
said, I'm ready now.

31:12.742 --> 31:17.544
like, I'm not going to make it.

31:17.604 --> 31:19.424
I mean, they were, but she was very much

31:19.544 --> 31:21.105
understanding of the process and she must

31:21.145 --> 31:23.625
have been only five, right? She was five

31:23.685 --> 31:25.846
and she understood it, but she also knew

31:25.906 --> 31:28.387
that she wanted him back. You know, she did.

31:28.527 --> 31:29.967
So anyway, like I said, that we can help

31:30.007 --> 31:31.488
people and give them things that they can

31:31.568 --> 31:32.928
do. I think that's really important.

31:33.430 --> 31:35.032
Well, the children do grieve differently

31:35.072 --> 31:38.096
than we do. They tend to dose themselves

31:38.176 --> 31:40.839
with grief. And by that, I mean, they will

31:40.879 --> 31:42.741
come in, they'll ask you a lot of questions,

31:43.422 --> 31:44.804
they'll get very upset, and then they'll

31:44.824 --> 31:46.766
go off and do something else. And they think

31:46.806 --> 31:48.368
about it. And then they come back and ask

31:48.408 --> 31:50.431
more questions. And they repeat this until

31:50.451 --> 31:52.956
they have all of their questions answered,

31:52.996 --> 31:56.140
but as far as, you know, when should a child

31:56.200 --> 32:00.544
be given the opportunity to see the pet leaving,

32:00.564 --> 32:04.048
you know, the rule of thumb is if you're

32:04.088 --> 32:05.950
old enough to love, you're old enough to

32:05.990 --> 32:08.613
decide. So if you love your pet and you're

32:08.653 --> 32:10.896
two years old, it's okay for you to be there.

32:11.456 --> 32:13.959
But parents need to be prepared about how

32:13.999 --> 32:16.502
they speak about the loss because if you

32:16.522 --> 32:18.044
tell your child you're putting the cat to

32:18.124 --> 32:20.347
sleep, then they're afraid to go to sleep

32:20.387 --> 32:22.349
because they may never wake up again.

32:22.689 --> 32:24.432
Yes, it's so hard.

32:24.852 --> 32:27.473
very careful how you speak. And then you

32:27.493 --> 32:29.414
get the whole question about, well, where's

32:29.474 --> 32:32.495
heaven? Why can't we go to heaven? How is

32:32.555 --> 32:35.596
Fluffy in this box? You know, it opens up

32:35.636 --> 32:37.217
a lot of different questions that we don't

32:37.257 --> 32:38.217
think about as adults.

32:40.758 --> 32:44.960
offer support, right? So if people are struggling

32:45.040 --> 32:48.441
with those types of questions, that is something

32:48.481 --> 32:51.683
that they could also turn to Rose Pet Memorial

32:51.723 --> 32:52.423
Center for Health.

32:52.583 --> 32:54.884
I actually have coloring books for children

32:54.924 --> 32:57.965
that were designed by a psychologist who

32:58.025 --> 33:01.287
specializes in grief. And when I give it

33:01.327 --> 33:02.987
to the parents, I tell them, don't sit your

33:03.007 --> 33:06.169
kid down and just let them color. This is

33:06.249 --> 33:08.772
a book you're going to talk about as you

33:08.812 --> 33:10.553
work through this, because it's going to

33:10.593 --> 33:13.155
help your child and you reconcile that loss.

33:13.195 --> 33:14.636
I was going to say, I might need that coloring

33:14.696 --> 33:20.421
book. Yeah, you might need it. I want to

33:20.521 --> 33:23.864
open it up to some questions, and I'm going

33:23.884 --> 33:28.007
to lead with one that I just wanted your

33:28.088 --> 33:30.149
thoughts on that is another thing in the

33:30.209 --> 33:34.373
grief process that I hear often. people struggle

33:34.433 --> 33:39.478
with is getting another pet. Like, when is

33:39.519 --> 33:42.902
the right time? Am I replacing them? Like,

33:42.962 --> 33:45.265
just kind of your thoughts on that, that

33:45.365 --> 33:47.247
internal struggle of what... Well, I will

33:47.267 --> 33:47.847
say this.

33:48.428 --> 33:52.417
Each pet is as individual as we are. That

33:52.517 --> 33:54.779
is a personal, very personal decision that

33:54.839 --> 33:57.221
you and your family make. There's plenty

33:57.241 --> 33:59.863
of pets out there who need homes. You are

33:59.923 --> 34:02.305
never going to find your pet again because

34:02.345 --> 34:06.148
they're also individual. But it's totally

34:06.248 --> 34:08.650
a decision. I have people who've come in

34:08.811 --> 34:10.432
and they have gotten a new pet before I even

34:10.472 --> 34:12.253
have their baby ready for them to go home.

34:12.674 --> 34:15.056
That's fine. I'm so glad they opened their

34:15.156 --> 34:18.398
heart and their home up to another pet. I

34:18.438 --> 34:20.479
have other people who say, I will never have

34:20.539 --> 34:24.700
another pet. I cannot take the pain. So it's,

34:24.940 --> 34:27.701
it's, I've found it's, there's no real decision.

34:27.721 --> 34:30.262
There's no real answer. No, I, it's, it's

34:30.542 --> 34:32.683
very, I mean, it's a very personal, like

34:32.703 --> 34:34.784
you said, choice taking on the care of another

34:34.824 --> 34:37.225
pet when maybe you just have spent thousands

34:37.265 --> 34:39.326
and thousands of dollars as well, in addition

34:39.366 --> 34:41.687
to the grief, right? Um, you have, you know,

34:41.707 --> 34:42.727
and you're thinking about, I don't want to

34:42.767 --> 34:44.288
start this again, right? I don't, I don't

34:44.308 --> 34:47.270
want to do that. Like I said, when we put

34:47.330 --> 34:50.573
my 18 and a half year old to sleep in April,

34:51.254 --> 34:54.276
beginning of April, I told the girls we had

34:54.296 --> 34:56.458
to wait until school was out. So that would

34:56.478 --> 34:59.054
have been like six, eight weeks. Yeah, so

34:59.094 --> 35:00.716
do you want to guess? So two and a half is

35:00.736 --> 35:02.978
when we made it. We made it two and a half

35:03.018 --> 35:04.960
weeks. Because I was told that everyone in

35:04.980 --> 35:09.744
the world has a dog except for us. But sometimes

35:09.924 --> 35:12.287
children, I think they may need, right, because

35:12.307 --> 35:13.328
they're so used to, they've always had a

35:13.348 --> 35:14.789
pet their entire life and things like that.

35:14.849 --> 35:17.011
So that may change that decision as well

35:17.031 --> 35:18.713
if there's other members in the household

35:18.753 --> 35:21.575
other than yourself or just one other person

35:21.615 --> 35:23.157
who are making those decisions as adults.

35:23.787 --> 35:25.368
Or sometimes you have to make that decision

35:25.468 --> 35:28.049
because your other pet at home is miserable.

35:29.009 --> 35:31.390
You have to get another cat or another dog

35:31.450 --> 35:34.631
or another guinea pig because they are not

35:34.711 --> 35:36.552
doing well without their companion.

35:36.855 --> 35:38.817
I'm so glad you brought that up because that

35:38.897 --> 35:41.340
is real, right? If you have other pets, you

35:41.460 --> 35:45.325
have to be in tune with them as to if they

35:45.405 --> 35:49.149
are grieving, you see medical issues from

35:49.349 --> 35:50.951
pets who are grieving, right?

35:51.191 --> 35:53.054
Yes. And they can go down. I mean, you can

35:53.094 --> 35:54.295
just see all of a sudden you're like, what

35:54.355 --> 35:56.564
is going on? But they, there's a reason why

35:56.604 --> 35:58.426
they are, you know, they, they have an emotional

35:58.466 --> 35:59.868
bond. They have, it was a member of their

35:59.888 --> 36:01.149
family or their pack, right?

36:01.690 --> 36:06.034
So. I remember a moment after, you know,

36:06.134 --> 36:10.326
Rhody had, had passed, and I was like, He

36:10.406 --> 36:13.188
and Jaina, we called them the odd couple,

36:13.208 --> 36:15.009
because they were always grumping at each

36:15.089 --> 36:17.111
other. And then I had a moment where I was

36:17.131 --> 36:20.253
like, oh my gosh, of all of the things, he

36:20.293 --> 36:22.694
decided to check out because Jaina's gone?

36:22.995 --> 36:26.817
He couldn't live without Jaina? You don't

36:27.077 --> 36:29.319
know that impact. And I don't know for sure

36:29.379 --> 36:31.820
that that's why we think his heart gave out,

36:31.900 --> 36:33.602
but like, you know?

36:33.682 --> 36:35.083
It's called Rickenback syndrome.

36:37.855 --> 36:40.839
So, paying attention to your pet, your other

36:40.900 --> 36:42.782
pets, and making sure that they are part

36:42.942 --> 36:45.746
of that process and recognizing their grief

36:45.906 --> 36:48.770
is something that we also need to normalize

36:49.031 --> 36:51.914
and talk about. Absolutely. That they have

36:51.975 --> 36:53.557
those, that they are going through those

36:53.617 --> 36:54.498
same feelings.

36:54.698 --> 36:56.679
And if people think you're nuts because you're

36:56.699 --> 36:58.799
talking about this, then those are the people

36:58.819 --> 37:00.160
you need to put up on the shelf.

37:00.300 --> 37:00.580
Right.

37:00.740 --> 37:02.921
Because they are not on the same page as

37:02.961 --> 37:05.781
you. They are not pet parents. They do not

37:05.801 --> 37:07.942
have the same passion that you do or the

37:07.982 --> 37:10.303
understanding of how huge a pet loss is.

37:10.463 --> 37:13.045
Yeah. I mean, in many cases, losing a pet

37:13.145 --> 37:31.541
is more difficult than losing a human. But

37:32.022 --> 37:34.203
you can put him in a cage and not go to jail.

37:34.223 --> 37:36.724
You can, that's also true. But I also want

37:36.744 --> 37:39.206
to give a shout out to the pets who, when

37:39.246 --> 37:41.167
their housemate has passed, who seem to come

37:41.227 --> 37:43.508
out of their shell. And then the people who

37:43.668 --> 37:46.530
say, well, I really want another cat or another

37:46.550 --> 37:50.192
dog or whatever it is. Please also respect

37:50.292 --> 37:53.314
that if that pet has been maybe from the

37:53.334 --> 37:55.515
way that that emotional status was, has been

37:55.635 --> 37:59.016
kind of smooshed, right? Or was, you know,

37:59.056 --> 38:00.837
it was a dominant relationship, and they

38:00.857 --> 38:03.038
were very submissive to it, and they come

38:03.178 --> 38:06.679
out of their shell. If you can, give them

38:06.719 --> 38:08.079
the opportunity to do that. And maybe they

38:08.119 --> 38:08.860
just want to be them.

38:09.360 --> 38:09.860
And that's it.

38:10.140 --> 38:13.481
Because that can definitely be the ultra-dynamic,

38:13.561 --> 38:14.802
you know, to the pet that's grieving, that

38:14.882 --> 38:16.887
needs a friend. that they've come out of

38:16.907 --> 38:18.748
their shell and maybe we just let them let

38:18.768 --> 38:19.369
them do their life.

38:20.750 --> 38:24.312
Do we have any questions or thoughts or have

38:24.332 --> 38:26.954
we covered and helped you guys?

38:27.475 --> 38:29.436
I would like to ask you all who you are here

38:29.536 --> 38:32.258
for today. So I'd like to know the name of

38:32.298 --> 38:33.840
your pet, what kind of pet they were,

38:34.640 --> 38:36.401
You're going to make us all cry.

38:36.781 --> 38:39.942
Sure, say something about your pets.

38:39.982 --> 38:41.663
You're going to have to skip me because we'll

38:41.703 --> 38:42.583
be here all day.

38:44.024 --> 38:45.504
I can't talk to your sister either.

38:46.084 --> 38:49.906
All right, if you want me to pass. Yes, you

38:49.926 --> 38:51.406
can pass if you don't want to share.

38:51.426 --> 38:54.947
We'll do the joint thing. Yeah, I have a

38:55.007 --> 38:57.968
face for radio, like I say. But anyway, no,

38:58.348 --> 39:00.048
these guys know. And that was one thing I

39:00.068 --> 39:02.229
wanted to make a comment on, is the fact

39:02.289 --> 39:04.389
that we have a peer group with these people.

39:04.529 --> 39:06.610
We've had for a few years now. I'm sorry.

39:07.270 --> 39:10.030
But the support system has been vital amongst

39:10.071 --> 39:12.591
these folks as well. Because last year, we

39:12.631 --> 39:14.972
said goodbye to Ella, our 19-year-old feline

39:14.992 --> 39:17.372
with kidney issues. That was very tough.

39:18.552 --> 39:20.333
We knew it was time, but you still feel the

39:20.373 --> 39:22.574
guilt. It's still hard. A month later, our

39:22.654 --> 39:25.597
thriving pug at six years old got sick and

39:25.637 --> 39:28.419
was dead the next day. Yeah. And I mean,

39:28.519 --> 39:30.921
there was a lot of wrestling of what could

39:30.941 --> 39:33.363
have we done, but she was responding positive

39:33.403 --> 39:35.645
to treatments for her stomach issues. But

39:35.705 --> 39:37.827
there was probably something underlying that

39:37.967 --> 39:40.728
was just never detected. And then the following

39:40.768 --> 39:43.029
month, our cat Mabel, also 19, we had to

39:43.069 --> 39:45.370
put him down. And so just bang, bang, bang

39:45.390 --> 39:48.131
was the hardest summer. We shared their journey

39:48.171 --> 39:50.492
of losing multiple pets in one fell swoop.

39:51.252 --> 39:53.893
So I want to thank you guys for being that

39:53.933 --> 39:55.974
support system and listening to us and all

39:56.014 --> 39:58.876
that stuff through the time as well. Yeah,

39:58.916 --> 40:01.057
we're here for them. We've had other dogs

40:01.097 --> 40:03.879
and cats in our lives. I grew up with dozens

40:03.939 --> 40:06.041
of barn animals, barn cats, things like that.

40:06.141 --> 40:10.263
So I've seen all walks of life from the indoor

40:10.303 --> 40:13.025
domesticated scene to the outdoor, you know,

40:13.185 --> 40:15.627
balancing nature. side of things as well.

40:15.847 --> 40:18.608
And no matter what that loss is, be it, you

40:18.648 --> 40:20.269
know, sudden accident, things like that,

40:20.309 --> 40:23.350
it's never easy. But, you know, I keep moving

40:23.490 --> 40:27.032
on, knowing that that's a part of life. But,

40:27.512 --> 40:29.453
you know, they'll always have a spot.

40:31.234 --> 40:33.155
Thank you.

40:33.235 --> 40:35.596
Does anybody else want to? I don't want to

40:35.636 --> 40:37.797
make anyone take the mic if you don't want

40:37.857 --> 40:38.017
to.

40:41.431 --> 40:44.152
I just, I wanted to say how, um, it's, it's

40:44.192 --> 40:47.873
kind of odd that I feel like a lot of people

40:47.913 --> 40:50.494
in society, when you lose a dog, people are

40:50.554 --> 40:53.975
much more apt to offer their condolences

40:54.115 --> 40:56.536
in a meaningful way than if you lose your

40:56.576 --> 40:58.456
cat. And I understand that a lot of people

40:58.496 --> 41:02.764
are more dog. So when we. lost our cats.

41:02.824 --> 41:05.487
I appreciate that we had the, the network

41:05.527 --> 41:08.331
of people who understood that cats are just

41:08.391 --> 41:12.856
as precious as dogs and it shouldn't be minimized.

41:12.916 --> 41:16.100
So I appreciate that we had at that point,

41:16.160 --> 41:19.685
people who understood and really supported

41:19.765 --> 41:21.327
us through that as well. Yeah.

41:22.830 --> 41:24.452
well, thank you and that's part of the reason

41:24.472 --> 41:26.474
that you know, I do this podcast the cat

41:26.534 --> 41:30.378
conversation is because and it's I Love dogs

41:30.438 --> 41:32.560
too, right? So never want to get in the conversation.

41:32.600 --> 41:36.584
We just as Humans, we've had more time with

41:36.624 --> 41:38.927
dogs domesticated than we have with cats

41:39.027 --> 41:41.530
and we're thousands right thousands and thousands

41:41.570 --> 41:44.873
of years We're still learning about cats.

41:44.913 --> 41:45.794
Well, they're not fully domesticated

41:46.284 --> 41:48.845
They're not, right? They're not. And they

41:48.865 --> 41:49.685
don't want to be.

41:49.725 --> 41:52.006
No, their baby tiger's living in her mouth.

41:52.086 --> 41:54.447
I think she wants to share about her kitty.

41:54.527 --> 41:58.588
Yes, absolutely. You want me to draw it again?

41:59.089 --> 42:01.910
It's okay, if you do.

42:01.930 --> 42:05.411
Okay. Okay. I'm loud, so I'll just talk like

42:05.451 --> 42:09.752
this. I'm Katie. I lost my cat, Peyton, about

42:09.932 --> 42:13.254
five, six years ago. Um, I didn't know everybody

42:13.294 --> 42:16.937
back then, but it was a very, um, I went

42:16.977 --> 42:19.739
to the vet with him just for a regular checkup

42:19.799 --> 42:21.961
and they found a tumor in his jaw. They said,

42:22.001 --> 42:24.744
you need to put him down right away. But

42:24.784 --> 42:26.805
he was eating fine. Everything was fine with

42:26.845 --> 42:29.708
him. So I said, well, I'm gonna let him be,

42:29.928 --> 42:32.510
let him enjoy the last time I have with him.

42:33.311 --> 42:35.833
For about the next month he was fine, eating

42:35.873 --> 42:37.314
fine, went to the bathroom okay, playing

42:37.354 --> 42:39.336
fine. Then all of a sudden everything went

42:39.376 --> 42:44.244
wrong. My vet wasn't available for a while.

42:44.264 --> 42:47.927
So my dad took me to Noah's and they were

42:47.967 --> 42:51.129
amazing with him. And so it was very quick

42:51.169 --> 42:53.731
and very sudden. But then a month later I

42:53.771 --> 42:55.932
got the chance to foster my current cats,

42:56.233 --> 42:59.975
Calypso and Fluffy. And I knew it was my

43:00.015 --> 43:02.077
heart telling, it was Peyton telling me it

43:02.117 --> 43:03.458
was time. Cause it was, it was like, wait,

43:03.478 --> 43:04.839
you said it was the first time in a long

43:04.879 --> 43:07.360
time I was truly by myself. I've had cats

43:07.400 --> 43:11.167
all my life and It was Peyton telling me

43:11.187 --> 43:13.828
it was time. So I'm here for Peyton and I

43:13.868 --> 43:16.429
just, and then recently I adopted Cooper,

43:17.169 --> 43:18.629
which was her pet of the week this week.

43:18.869 --> 43:22.010
So thank you KJ. He feels he's the diva this

43:22.030 --> 43:25.971
week in my house. So, but I'm here for Peyton

43:26.091 --> 43:28.352
and he's buried in my dad's backyard and

43:28.372 --> 43:30.453
I go to my dad's house every week. So I always

43:30.493 --> 43:33.973
say hi to him when I go over there and I

43:34.013 --> 43:36.894
tell him I love him and I miss him and it's

43:36.914 --> 43:39.415
hard because I think about him all the time.

43:41.124 --> 43:43.226
But I want to thank you all for always being

43:43.266 --> 43:45.968
there for me and giving me the best advice

43:46.028 --> 43:48.610
I can with the cats I have now. So even though

43:48.630 --> 43:50.272
I'm grieving for Peyton all the time, and

43:50.312 --> 43:52.453
it's been years, I know he's always there.

43:53.594 --> 43:54.235
And so are we.

43:54.475 --> 43:56.797
Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right.

43:57.057 --> 43:59.678
Anybody else? Anybody else would you yes?

43:59.758 --> 44:05.120
Yes. Yes. Are you guys do you want okay?

44:06.320 --> 44:09.801
So You talked about one of the situations

44:09.821 --> 44:12.161
that I am in so I have a mentor schnauzer

44:12.721 --> 44:16.102
who has had everything wrong with him forever

44:17.042 --> 44:20.343
and just when you think it's over he bounces

44:20.423 --> 44:22.965
back and And so I appreciate that y'all talked

44:23.005 --> 44:26.368
about that. Yeah, he just had his fourth

44:26.448 --> 44:29.651
cancer surgery on Friday. So he just, he

44:29.691 --> 44:31.973
just keeps on making the rounds. And then

44:32.013 --> 44:33.975
the other thing that I think is a little

44:34.015 --> 44:36.358
different that I struggle with on the regular

44:36.398 --> 44:40.921
is community cats. So, we have a lot of colonies

44:41.021 --> 44:42.822
that we work with, that we feed, that we

44:42.842 --> 44:48.044
take care of. And so grief is almost constant.

44:48.845 --> 44:53.807
And this has helped in really being able

44:53.967 --> 44:57.749
to think differently about that because almost

44:57.849 --> 45:01.552
every week There is a cat who we've had to

45:01.632 --> 45:03.553
take care of in some way because he's passed

45:03.693 --> 45:08.316
on. And so that's my biggest issue with grief,

45:08.997 --> 45:12.519
is community cats. Because it's on and on.

45:12.559 --> 45:15.081
You're treading in your ocean. Yes, constantly.

45:15.101 --> 45:17.042
You have never left the ocean. You are like

45:17.102 --> 45:18.803
right at the surf where it's hitting you

45:18.903 --> 45:21.465
every time. Yeah, it's just about the time

45:21.485 --> 45:24.547
you're able to make some progress, you are

45:24.567 --> 45:25.468
hit with it again.

45:26.328 --> 45:29.356
Well, and I think in that case, because that

45:29.456 --> 45:31.702
won't change, right? Like this is not a situation

45:31.722 --> 45:35.275
that will change. I kind of almost liken

45:35.295 --> 45:37.997
it to anxiety, because anxiety is many of

45:38.077 --> 45:40.420
our friends here, whether we'd like it to

45:40.440 --> 45:43.002
be or not. But if anxiety is the ocean, if

45:43.042 --> 45:45.104
we struggle against anxiety because we don't

45:45.144 --> 45:47.206
want it, because it shouldn't be there, or

45:47.246 --> 45:49.548
we can't manage it, or it just keeps happening,

45:49.608 --> 45:52.270
or it does things that we don't want it to

45:52.310 --> 45:53.972
do, kind of like the grief comes, we don't

45:53.992 --> 45:57.155
have control. If we can just float in the

45:57.255 --> 45:59.357
ocean and acknowledge the ocean rather than

45:59.397 --> 46:01.678
try to fight the ocean, you know, because

46:01.898 --> 46:04.639
it's not going to go away. That has been

46:04.659 --> 46:10.201
helpful for me, at least. So, yeah.

46:10.221 --> 46:13.963
Yeah. Hey.

46:14.403 --> 46:15.964
Up close and personal.

46:19.498 --> 46:22.440
My name is Nathan and I began volunteering

46:22.500 --> 46:24.401
at one of the local humane societies here

46:24.421 --> 46:28.263
in town and this was like 2011 and My my

46:28.283 --> 46:30.384
first day there. I was working with the cats

46:31.104 --> 46:33.625
and there was a black cat Her name is Sabrina

46:34.226 --> 46:35.826
and she looks very much like this one that's

46:35.847 --> 46:40.569
been visiting with me And she wasn't anti-social

46:40.609 --> 46:42.550
but she just had her box on her shelf and

46:42.590 --> 46:45.191
she didn't come down for anybody and I Don't

46:45.211 --> 46:46.532
know what it was my first day there. She

46:46.552 --> 46:47.973
just latched on to me and it's like this

46:48.033 --> 46:50.944
is my person So I ended up adopting her a

46:50.964 --> 46:53.865
couple of months later. And so I had her

46:54.106 --> 46:56.867
until about two years ago. And then it was

46:56.887 --> 46:58.128
like one day her health just kind of went

46:58.148 --> 47:01.129
downhill. And she was having trouble breathing.

47:01.169 --> 47:04.471
And they did a test on her. And she had had

47:04.511 --> 47:06.532
this flu that developed in between the space

47:06.572 --> 47:09.973
between her rib cage and her lungs. And she

47:10.013 --> 47:12.455
was having trouble breathing. And there was

47:12.475 --> 47:14.476
the option to do radiation, but with her

47:14.496 --> 47:16.657
advanced age, I said, that's probably not

47:16.677 --> 47:19.415
a good idea. So I finally made the decision.

47:19.435 --> 47:23.276
It was time. I knew. I talked to the vet.

47:23.296 --> 47:26.497
And then one day, I woke up one morning,

47:26.517 --> 47:28.258
and she was laying on the floor. And it was

47:28.278 --> 47:30.819
like she was ready to say goodbye. We both

47:30.859 --> 47:34.340
kind of knew. And so we got to touch noses.

47:34.400 --> 47:36.320
And we always wanted to touch foreheads.

47:36.340 --> 47:38.061
And I sang her a couple songs. I used to

47:38.081 --> 47:39.521
always sing to her when she was alive. And

47:39.581 --> 47:43.380
then it was like she was gone. So I ended

47:43.400 --> 47:44.841
up having her buried there and there was

47:44.861 --> 47:47.021
like a memorial garden at the Humane Society.

47:47.081 --> 47:48.882
It seemed kind of fitting because that's

47:48.902 --> 47:52.483
where we first met. And then I ended up stepping

47:52.523 --> 47:53.744
down a couple months later. It was just really

47:53.784 --> 47:57.985
difficult to be there. And my last day, this,

47:58.706 --> 47:59.826
like when the library freight got off my

47:59.866 --> 48:01.987
shift, this black cat climbed in my lap.

48:02.667 --> 48:04.908
And there was a mom and her little, he's

48:04.928 --> 48:06.768
probably eight or nine, this little boy came

48:06.848 --> 48:09.449
in and he was asking all kinds of questions

48:09.469 --> 48:12.055
and he was writing down notes. He started

48:12.075 --> 48:14.317
asking about this black cat and it was just

48:14.357 --> 48:16.178
right all kinds. It was pretty incredible

48:17.179 --> 48:19.761
and he ended up end up adopting this this

48:19.801 --> 48:21.762
cat so if like in a way it kind of kind of

48:21.782 --> 48:25.505
came full circle and So I do have this is

48:25.525 --> 48:28.908
like a little Grave mark a little marker.

48:28.928 --> 48:32.350
They had a Keep with me and that's beautiful.

48:32.510 --> 48:35.572
Yeah Yeah, beautiful.

48:35.612 --> 48:37.194
That was a little song used to sing all the

48:37.214 --> 48:40.131
time and I So I have her picture in a little

48:40.171 --> 48:41.891
lantern. I have one of her whiskers, and

48:41.911 --> 48:45.113
then I have two of the toys that came when

48:45.133 --> 48:49.615
I adopted her. She had two toy boxes of toys.

48:49.655 --> 48:51.896
But like a cat, she just wanted the milk

48:51.936 --> 48:53.316
rings in the box. She didn't really care

48:53.336 --> 48:56.818
about the toys. So some days are better than

48:56.878 --> 48:57.999
others. And people have asked, do you want

48:58.019 --> 49:00.320
to get another cat? And I thought, no, I'm

49:00.340 --> 49:03.101
not there. And where I live now, I actually

49:03.141 --> 49:05.242
babysit for other people's pets. So I get

49:06.082 --> 49:09.262
to spend time with pets, but not have the

49:09.322 --> 49:11.743
emotional stuff that goes with that, so.

49:11.903 --> 49:13.104
Yeah, yeah.

49:14.324 --> 49:15.885
Well, and I think, you know, sitting, you

49:16.185 --> 49:18.546
know, here together today, this is one of

49:18.626 --> 49:21.628
our resources, right? Like if you aren't

49:21.728 --> 49:24.749
ready, you don't know if you want to welcome

49:24.769 --> 49:26.630
another cat in your life, but you know how

49:26.690 --> 49:29.872
healing they are. Being able to come spend

49:29.932 --> 49:33.713
time here, volunteering and, you know, and

49:35.033 --> 49:38.274
Shelly, she, she's not going to be someone

49:38.354 --> 49:42.695
who is going to, you know, toot her own horn,

49:42.755 --> 49:46.216
but she is an amazing hero for community

49:46.257 --> 49:49.357
cats and and what we do with Indy neighborhood

49:49.397 --> 49:53.053
cats, those lives matter. Right, they matter

49:53.293 --> 49:56.314
and and the people that are are feeding them

49:56.454 --> 49:58.934
sometimes the people that reach out to us

49:59.335 --> 50:02.455
That's their only connection to any kind

50:02.595 --> 50:05.856
of relationship there, you know And so yes,

50:05.956 --> 50:08.576
we grieve them all you know, and what you

50:08.656 --> 50:13.217
do is is is important. So I hope that everybody

50:13.257 --> 50:15.218
took away from this today that you're not

50:15.278 --> 50:17.499
you're not alone and and that it doesn't

50:17.539 --> 50:21.221
matter if it's been days or years? It doesn't.

50:21.261 --> 50:21.601
Right?

50:22.022 --> 50:24.563
It's something we learn to live with. It's

50:24.723 --> 50:29.006
going to change you forever. And you just

50:29.046 --> 50:31.748
need to accept that and your feelings that

50:31.788 --> 50:34.470
you're experiencing are totally normal.

50:35.090 --> 50:36.911
And it's one of your chapters, right? In

50:36.951 --> 50:38.993
your book, it's not removed ever.

50:39.982 --> 50:42.205
This is a book that I recommend. I guide

50:42.225 --> 50:59.229
the morning. remembering and healing because

50:59.269 --> 51:02.071
you do have to have the intent to heal. You

51:02.111 --> 51:05.133
can heal and still honor your baby. And I

51:05.173 --> 51:06.954
just want to say thank you to everybody who

51:06.994 --> 51:08.455
shared about their pets today.

51:08.595 --> 51:12.797
Yes. I want to make sure that I cover everyone

51:12.837 --> 51:13.717
that wanted to share.

51:13.737 --> 51:15.859
You can get this on Amazon or you can buy

51:15.879 --> 51:17.980
it from Dr. Woolfelt's bookstore.

51:18.840 --> 51:20.561
Okay, that's okay. That's okay. That's okay.

51:20.881 --> 51:23.283
I wasn't I I just wanted to make sure if

51:23.303 --> 51:25.504
you wanted to that I did that I respected

51:25.804 --> 51:28.386
your time because we're We're very grateful

51:28.446 --> 51:30.927
to the uh smitten kitten cat cafe that they

51:30.947 --> 51:32.808
have given us a little bit of extra time

51:32.848 --> 51:35.289
and that they've given us This wonderful

51:35.370 --> 51:40.012
space to do this Um, and I do you know Would

51:40.052 --> 51:42.153
love to hear back from you. I think you know

51:42.293 --> 51:45.696
all of you know how to find me um If this

51:45.776 --> 51:48.398
is something that we need to do more often.

51:48.678 --> 51:50.899
And if there is somebody that you would want

51:50.959 --> 51:53.221
to bring back and experience this because

51:53.261 --> 51:56.043
like you said, there's a support here that

51:56.123 --> 51:58.165
you guys know from being in the cat club.

51:58.345 --> 52:01.127
And for those of you listening, KJ's cat

52:01.167 --> 52:04.209
club is a It's a facebook group. It's free

52:04.249 --> 52:07.091
to join and it we post lots of cute pictures,

52:07.171 --> 52:10.574
but we also Talk about things like what do

52:10.634 --> 52:12.655
I do? My cat's got a different behavior.

52:12.855 --> 52:14.736
Is that something I should be worried about

52:14.997 --> 52:17.478
you know, and and everybody's very supportive

52:17.719 --> 52:21.141
and We talk about grief. We have coffee and

52:21.181 --> 52:24.723
cats live and we have cried many times not

52:25.104 --> 52:27.245
not trying to write but it's like all of

52:27.285 --> 52:28.646
a sudden we're drinking coffee and we're

52:28.706 --> 52:30.007
having fun and we're like

52:33.506 --> 52:36.307
That's wonderful. I'm glad. I'm glad you

52:36.467 --> 52:39.589
all were crying. That means you are healing.

52:40.449 --> 52:45.371
So, Jane, people can find your website. Is

52:45.431 --> 52:47.732
it RosePetMemorialCenter.com? That's it.

52:47.932 --> 52:53.153
All right. All right. And any last thoughts

52:53.313 --> 52:55.714
from you, Dr. Oldenstall?

52:55.854 --> 52:57.675
Everybody, when you guys shared about your

52:57.715 --> 52:59.856
pets, there was one that maybe kind of stood

52:59.936 --> 53:02.117
out more than the others. And I call it the

53:02.158 --> 53:04.399
heart pet. Like we may have pets that we

53:04.419 --> 53:06.280
have loved in our life and may have had more

53:06.300 --> 53:08.121
than one. And sometimes there's that one.

53:08.825 --> 53:10.626
that kind of touches us a little. And I just

53:10.646 --> 53:12.486
kind of call that the heart pet. And for

53:12.526 --> 53:14.367
me, that's why I have Buster and I don't

53:14.407 --> 53:16.567
have my other dog as a necklace because I

53:16.607 --> 53:18.228
didn't feel that that's what she would want.

53:18.308 --> 53:19.968
And so I have Buster and I don't feel like

53:20.008 --> 53:22.069
I'm just not acknowledging that she hasn't

53:22.129 --> 53:24.490
passed. It's just that was not the, it was

53:24.530 --> 53:25.930
a different, it was different, you know,

53:25.970 --> 53:28.011
and I think knowing that those relationships

53:28.051 --> 53:29.731
are different and it's okay to have that

53:29.811 --> 53:31.672
heart pet or more than one heart pet too.

53:32.432 --> 53:35.313
Yes. Yeah. So I'm glad that you pointed that

53:35.413 --> 53:37.473
out because it goes back, kind of goes back

53:37.513 --> 53:39.313
to where we started is that your feelings

53:39.373 --> 53:43.734
are valid and however you are grieving is

53:44.014 --> 53:47.835
okay. We have done that. We've had, when

53:47.875 --> 53:50.176
we first started, when we first started losing

53:50.196 --> 53:54.297
cats, we didn't take their, their, uh, remains

53:54.357 --> 53:56.757
back and it just, it didn't bother us. And

53:56.797 --> 54:00.318
then there was Leah. And I was, I remember

54:00.358 --> 54:03.393
when they were like, Do you because, you

54:03.593 --> 54:05.693
know, we had done the like usual, you want

54:05.713 --> 54:07.514
to do what you usually do. And I was like,

54:07.554 --> 54:08.434
give her back to me.

54:08.634 --> 54:09.815
Yeah, you have to have that.

54:09.835 --> 54:11.956
Right. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So like

54:12.536 --> 54:15.537
it's OK that it's different. And they don't

54:15.717 --> 54:18.018
care. No. Right. That's really important.

54:18.118 --> 54:19.318
They do not care.

54:20.799 --> 54:23.380
There are no rules. Yes. Everybody's grief

54:23.400 --> 54:26.558
journey is their own. You owe no one an explanation

54:26.638 --> 54:27.418
for how you feel.

54:27.778 --> 54:30.039
So thank you all for joining us today. Thank

54:30.059 --> 54:31.900
you for listening. Thank you for watching.

54:32.280 --> 54:34.541
Thank you to the Smitten Kitten Cat Cafe.

54:35.221 --> 54:37.302
You can follow along with all the things

54:37.322 --> 54:40.223
that we are doing in terms of getting together,

54:40.403 --> 54:44.285
our cat club, all of that. Go to catconversation.com.

54:44.725 --> 54:47.306
And until the next conversation, I am sending

54:47.346 --> 54:48.467
you positive vibes.