Mental Health #4: COO Kat Cole on Knowing What You’re Capable Of

Alex Lieberman: What's up everyone, Alex Lieberman here. We are bringing you something a little extra this week in the Founder's Journal feed: the pilot of our newest Morning Brew podcast,  Imposters. The idea for Imposters is that each week, I sit down with one of the most respected names in business, sports, and entertainment to discuss how they overcame personal challenges and continue to find professional success. The show is going to be all about vulnerability, imperfection, and resilience, and I am so excited to be bringing it to you. So please enjoy this pilot episode. It features Athletic Greens president and COO Kat Cole, and I think you'll really get value from hearing her story. And since you're a member of my Founder’s Journal audience, I really care about what you think. So after you've listened, send me an email to alex@morningbrew.com or DM me on Twitter @businessbarista with your reactions to this pilot and any ideas for guests that we should speak to in the future. Without further ado, here's Imposters.

Kat Cole: My mom and sisters and I left my dad when I was nine years old. And so my mom struggled for quite some time to make that decision to leave. I had been in car accidents with my dad by the time I was nine years old and he was an alcoholic, a great dude, you know, really nice, but a terrible husband and father. And his alcoholism got the best of him. And he was not able to prioritize the things that he needed to. So when she came to me when I was nine years old and said, that's it I'm done. We're leaving. I didn't cry. I didn't get upset. I looked at her and said, what took you so long?

Alex Lieberman: Welcome to Imposters. This is your host, Alex Lieberman, co-founder and executive chairman of Morning Brew. If you're familiar with me and my work, you may know that I've been open about my own struggles with anxiety and how the loss of my father impacted my career. Sharing my own story opened me up to learning from others in similar circumstances. I became fascinated with the universal nature of all of our struggles. How does someone rebuild a career after profound loss? How did they overcome self-doubt? How did they manage to find success despite their at times crippling mental health struggles? On Imposters, I’ve asked some of the most respected names in business and entertainment to open up about their own personal challenges and how it impacted their career. Today's guest is Kat Cole. Kat was recently announced the president, COO, and board member of Athletic Greens. And before that, she spent 10 years as the president and COO of Focus Brands, the parent company of the food chain Cinnabon and Auntie Anne’s. She also serves on a number of corporate and nonprofit boards, including Mil bar, Slice, and HumanCo. Before she held these powerful possessions, Kat rose in the ranks at Hooters, starting off as a part-time hostess before dropping out of college to travel the world opening Hooters franchises. At the age of 26, Kat was already a VP at the company. But behind Kat's success in the world of business is what most would consider a traumatic childhood. Kat shares how being put in this situation actually helped shape her entire career. So I want to start by reading a tweet. It's a tweet you wrote. The tweet is don't forget where you came from, but don't you dare let it solely define you. Message my mom used to write on my birthday card: Our past is our truth, not our prison. We all have permission to change and we can support and grant the same to others on a journey to grow. Clappy hands.

Kat Cole: Very important addition to–

Alex Lieberman: Exactly. Tell me what that tweet means to you and, and provide context on your full experience with, with what that means.

Kat Cole: It's, I mean, it's become a mantra of sorts for my life, for the businesses I've run, for brands that I've built, for teams I've turned around, for my personal relationships, but it's born out of my like earliest stories of life-shaping challenges. I mean, I talked about it often, but my mom and sisters and I left my dad when I was nine years old. And like, we were super poor on both sides of the family, except my dad had a good job. And so we had a nice house, I mean, lower-middle income, but it looked like a mansion compared to the, you know, trailer parks and slums and people being on streets and you know, the not-so-well off parts of the family. And so my mom struggled for quite some time to make that decision to leave. I had been in car accidents with my dad by the time I was nine years old. And he was an alcoholic, a great dude, you know, really nice, but a terrible husband and father and his alcoholism got the best of him. And he was not able to prioritize the things that he needed to. And so it was bad for a long time, but my mom had an entry-level job, again, no one on either side of the family could help us or support us. And in fact, it was pretty normal to have alcoholics in the family. And so many people looked at my mom and said, well, at least you're getting a nice house out of it. And, and you know, so for a long time, many people who she trusted said, you should be grateful. You should be grateful. Like, you know, we're having to deal with all this and you get gifts for your kids and you have a car and you have a playhouse and you have a decent house. And that allowed her to convince herself that she dare not expect more, or better is a better word. So when she came to me, when I was nine years old and said, that's it I'm done. We're leaving. I didn't cry. I didn't get upset. I looked at her and said, what took you so long?

Alex Lieberman: So after Kat's mother decided to take Kat and her sisters away from their father and strike out on their own, Kat says that her mother helped the family survive on a food budget of, get this, $10 a week. She saw her mother work multiple jobs to keep Kat and her sisters a float. And even though they'd come from such a tough situation, Kat says her mother never spoke ill of her father, once again, reinforcing this idea that they didn't have to hide from their past,

Kat Cole: Even then she was modeling this idea of, you know, our truth is in our roots. Like the reality was we, we didn't have the things that other people had, but, but we didn't have to be trapped by it or defined by it. One, simply stated, she got us out of there. And so we were already not defined by or stuck in the past, yet there was something about those early days that has always been a part of not only my upbringing and my story, but how I make decisions. I often talk about my father and my mother's courageous decisions in a way that many people are surprised because there’re pieces of some people's story that they think they have to hide from, or be embarrassed by. And while certainly it's not lovely, it created so much resilience and so many amazing leadership examples. And so I got to see my mom not run away from our past. I mean, acknowledge it, that it wasn't great, but make a decision to be different and not let it define her. And then I started working at Hooters as a very young person out there in the workforce, trying to pay my way through school as the first person in my family to get into college. And I was there for almost 15 years. I was a waitress and a hostess for only two years. I joined the corporate office at 20. So the lion's share of those years were in the corporate world. But even that became something that over time as I moved on and started running different companies, I had to think about, like  am I defined by this? How, how much of that is fuel for me versus an anchor? And I could go on and on about the many examples from my past and my experiences, but it was this magic unlock inspired by my mom writing on my birthday card, Don't forget where you came from. And that idea of don't forget where you came from, but don't let it solely define you is true for brands that need to evolve to stay relevant. There's some magic in their history that is their secret sauce. And some version of that should absolutely continue. But if they only do what they've done, there'll be on the long and growing list of companies in the corporate graveyard.

Alex Lieberman: I wonder, is there any sadness that you held at that time or throughout your childhood, because from that point on you didn't necessarily have the father figure in your life that a typical family would have? Is there any of this that you hold on to, that you aren't always so strong about or not necessarily?

Kat Cole: No, here's the reality. I didn't have the father figure before we left. And I had plenty of tears before that moment, right. That moment was a relief from years of being a little girl crying in her room with my sisters who were scared, who didn't understand what was going on with my mom, who would occasionally not be able to hide her sadness or tears. So it was a relief. And when you think about the contrast of yes, there's fear of being on our, on our own, and yes, there's a little bit of, we don't have a dad around, but again, we didn't before. And so it's, it's all perspective.

Alex Lieberman: As a teenager, Kat was working as a hostess at Hooters and by the time she was 26 Kat was a VP at the company helping to open franchises around the world. That is a wildly powerful position to be in as such a young college dropout. 

Kat Cole: I think it was when I, again, I started taking early leadership roles that people started asking, why you, and how, how are you getting to do this? And I, and I, I didn't know how to answer. So I reflected and I saw it and I thought about the things that I've experienced that maybe not other people do, or that they do experience, but they don't have a way to cope or process or channel it into something incredibly motivating. And that's what allowed me to articulate very early on how those experiences and their early sadness, and then the freeing, you know, element of leaving and being on our own, we're actually strengthening and formative. And so it wasn't repressing emotion. I had lived it so deeply. It was really owning the power that came from it.

Alex Lieberman: And now for a quick break. Okay. Back to the show. In the past, when, when we've chatted, and I've also obviously seen you talk about this, a number of times, just the maturity that you've had throughout your life. And even as you became a young executive, right? You've talked about, you know, some people being like, Who the hell is this young executive telling me what to do? But on the other side, people being like, she's really mature.

Kat Cole: Yeah. For all of us I'm sure there's some element of both nature and nurture, but you, I don't think you can remove the early onslaught of responsibility from my story and get an overly similar outcome. Even if it was just, I'm nine years old or 10 years old, I'm watching a three-year-old and a six-year-old. My mom's giving me the list. I have to figure out how to do it. Then I have questions, then I have to call. And what if she's busy and she can't answer? Now, what do I do? You know, just that, just the responsibility at home. But I also took leadership roles and everything else I did. Every sport debate, cheerleading, track, whatever it was, it was captain co-captain, president, whatever appointed, elected, or volunteered. And so there's a piece where it has always been a joy and felt natural to lead others, support others, help others. In my mind, especially in the early days, it was helping, it wasn't leading. But then there was real responsibility at home. And then working from the time I was 15. Getting the keys to a retail establishment, working in restaurants, counting Kat, you know, it's just like you layer on all these experiences of responsibility for other people's condition and add being in the service industry where you very literally are responsible for someone's experience and they pay you to some degree reflective of how well you accomplish that outcome. Those are all, again, the question is chicken or the egg. Did I gravitate toward that? Or did it help shape me? And the answer is probably both. Many people would say, oh, look at your career. You look so ambitious. It's not ambition, it's drive. And I think those are two very different things. Ambition to me feels like going towards something like I'm going to be X. Drive is a force behind me, propelling me in a direction.  It's like, where's the energy coming from? And I had drive not ambition because I had no examples to make me ambitious. There was no, like, I want to be like my uncle, you know, or my grandpa. I mean, I can't even say on this show, the bad shit going on in, you know, parts of the family. And so, so I had more energy wanting me to go away from where I was. And so my drive, which I have worded as my currency, has always been learning, because learning to me like the definition of, if I'm doing something different tomorrow, I am going to be somewhere different the day after. And again and again and again. And so what may look like a high risk tolerance if people follow my trajectory is not actually that. It is a radically high prioritization of learning and real learning does not come from comfort. And so, you know, it's this to your point of in your mind, it's the ability to reframe everything in a way that doesn't warp reality but that allows me to see the version that works for me. And then eventually I learned to help others do the same thing. I started working in leading teams, so young, so young. And so I had to generate the respect of others and deliver a desired outcome, whether it was on a shift or of a region or an opening. And I just, the big downside was, as I mentioned, I didn't have a lot of mentors or professional examples, which is why things like the Hotshot Rule became so formative in my world.

Alex Lieberman: Something that Kat has talked a lot about in her career, including in numerous public talks he's given over the years, is this idea of the Hotshot Rule. And the Hotshot Rule is basically the practice of thinking of someone you admire and taking a moment to consider what they might do in your given situation or role, and then acting on it. According to Kat, often a solution arises more quickly when you think about a problem through someone else's lens.

Kat Cole: And, and I didn't in the earliest days, whether it was think I deserve to have them or think I had access to them. So I just went about it on my own and then accepted gratefully any help that came my way. But I didn't get really good at asking for help with the belief that I deserved it and it would make me better and as part of the journey, until I started opening franchises around the world. When I had the ultimate responsibility to show up in a country where I'd never been to lead a team I had never met to launch a business that had never existed in a country. You know, there was no option. And the first opening, there were certain things that went wrong that in the second opening, the same things went wrong. And by the third opening, I was like, I am the only common denominator here. Many things have gone right, but this should not be consistently wrong. It's clearly me. And so I had to learn the hard way and didn't have a lot of like coaching experiences in those early days outside of sports and athletics to really help me get better. So I had to find ways on my own. 

Alex Lieberman: Well, I was going to say, there's, you know, there's kind of like a beauty on the other side of that, to what you're discussing, which is like pretty much your whole life, you're able to just figure shit out or not just able to, you had to, you had to figure shit out and will things into existence or to make things happen. And I think there's a balance, right. Of being able to be a force yourself, but also know when there are things you don't know that you can ask, ask for help. You know, as we talk and we've obviously spoken a lot, one way I would describe you is you're just a very confident person. You are a, you're confident in, like, as in like you, you give off an energy of confidence, like, you know your abilities, you know your success, and not in a cocky way, but like you just know what, what you are capable of. Did you always have that?

Kat Cole:  I like to redefine confidence, which is great because I am very confident in my abilities. I'm glad that comes across. But for me, I think what makes it so easy to exude confidence is that confidence for me is not maybe a previously overly masculine definition of confidence, which is, I know what I'm doing. My confidence is a humble confidence. I know I can figure it out. And there is a big difference, big difference. And I, you know, we've all worked for those people who are always, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. Even though the world is moving so fast that no one can always know what they're doing. And I will forever stand behind people who say, I don't always know what I'm doing, but I know we, you know, we can figure it out. And that came from early responsibility as a child. I didn't have the roadmap, everything wasn't working the way that my mom said that it would, but we figured it out. It wasn't always a hundred percent, but the girls were alive. They were relatively happy. I think I only tied my youngest sister to a treat once or twice. And then the same thing happened when I was opening franchises around the world. Right. Nothing was perfect, but we figured most of it out. And those experiences of being in new environments often and still having to deliver some outcome were so formative to create this, to create or shape or contribute to this confidence that, that you comment on that people feel it's a humble confidence. But what that creates is like confidence confidence, because I, I believe we can figure it out. That feels calming and strong and not stressed and distracted, but it is not absolute certainty in the outcome.

Alex Lieberman: Yeah. Well, it's actually, it's such a, an important distinction you make, right. Because when you talk about the other confidence, the confidence of like, I know the answer. Thank you, but I know it. It's almost, it's in a, this ironic way. It's the, the unconfident confidence. Right? Right. And so I think what you're describing is an aspect of just combination of self-belief and resourcefulness, and also a feeling of, we, like you said, a feeling of like us collectively, if I'm surrounded by good people where we are collectively going after something, we will figure it out. We are curious and we are resourceful.

Kat Cole: Yeah. I mean, I remember being in Mexico opening the first Hooters in Mexico City on Insurgentes and I spoke enough Spanish to be dangerous, sort of conversationally an industry fluent, but not fluent fluent. And when you're trying to speak a second language, it is exhausting. It is mentally exhausting. And I would go home every night from leading these teams and just cry, not like bawling, rock in a corner, but, you know, I'd lay down and just tears would run down my face. I was tired. I knew that I didn't sound as intelligent with my limited vocabulary as I could in other markets. And it just, I had to struggle with that. How do I come across? Is enough of the work getting done? Do they respect me? How can I tell? I guess I just have to focus on, is the work getting done? And what's the vibe, you know,  people. And I had so many experiences like that through life, in my early career, where there, there is a mixture of, because we can figure it out, but we don't have all the answers. There's some underlying energy, right? Whether you want to call it anxiousness or stress or fear or sadness, or what many will call the internal saboteur, or imposter syndrome, of course. You know, all these things that are questions are in some way, a reflection of humility, which is really powerful, but there's a dark side to humility. That's what my mom had. Right. Which was for so long saying, who am I, you know, who am I to, to question having a nice house? And, you know, with this situation, who am I, you know, this, I don't deserve to make things better. And, and so whether it was from her, or from my own experiences, I really appreciate there is a, there is a point where humility uncomplemented by courage and curiosity and confidence is not always what serves someone. And in fact is in some ways, what can diminish a leader's ability to humbly lead other groups. 

Alex Lieberman: You know, one of the things that I, one of the many things that just makes me respect you so much as a person is this incredible balance between, you know, at times being analytical and quantitative, but other times just being super mindful and intentional and reflective similar to this idea of, you know, just kind of the, the belief in being able to get whatever the task at hand is done. Have you always been such a reflective person? Have you always been someone who steps back, from everything from like, you know, your relationships and  your marriage and doing your monthly check-ins and your, your, and your quarterly off-sites to just like, even a lot of the conversation we're having here where you're being super reflective. Has that always been you?

Kat Cole: Good question. I, you know, I don't know. I know that my practices of reflection became more conscious and intentional and scheduled in my early to mid-twenties. Part of that was a result of, I was being asked a lot of questions by the media about my story and my life. It forced me to reflect, and that was such a gift just doing interviews. Right. And then it made me think about things differently. And I became a public speaker at a very young age. I started leading nonprofit boards at a really young age. And like in my mid-twenties, I was chair of the board of a decent size nonprofit and these roles, these experiences just force a ton of questions. And so I fell in love with the power of questions and really deprioritized believing, needing to think, that I had the answer. And that's why we developed the check-ins that I've done with my team members and what you mentioned, my husband and I having our monthly check-ins with very specific questions we ask each other, just this muscle of ask, answer, act. Ask, answer, act, and then 12 years ago, or so I started practicing what I talk about quite a bit with the hotshot rule of envisioning someone else in my role, because we can reflect on our own experience, but that has limitations. And we can ask other people to give us feedback and that's their perspective. But then something like the hotshot rule is the ability to reflect through someone else's eyes and then project, what would they do if they were in my shoes? And then why can't I do that? But then act right, taking action on it, and then telling my team afterward, and always at the end, they say some version of what I said to my mom, which is what took you so long? Or it's about time. And so whether it was a nature and nurture, who knows, but I remember in my mid-twenties, when these practices became foundational and ritual, and by the time I was the president of Cinnabon turning around a business, it was the practice of my direct reports. And even with companies I invest in or advise, or, you know, these are, I, of course I ask questions. I lead by asking and listening, but I also love helping others build these practices for themselves. So it's not just left to those who get interviewed or to those who have something so traumatic that they have to go through someone teaching them to reflect. I mean, the power of reflection, intention, and action should be something that everyone gets to benefit from.

Alex Lieberman: I think a lot of what we can learn from Kat’s story is the ability to recognize what your disadvantages have given you, the opportunity they can offer you. In Kat's case, growing up without a father figure and having to be the primary co-parent for her family at a young age, made her uniquely confident in the workplace. She knew that when thrown into a new situation, without any prior experience or knowledge, that she could figure things out. Rather than focusing on what she lacked, Kat always recognized what she was capable of. Kat's version of confidence, the kind in which you know that you can figure things out, can serve as a really powerful mantra for anyone experiencing imposter syndrome, where anyone dealing with a tough situation at work, something honestly that I've experienced many times over the course of my career. And if that doesn't work, there's always the hotshot rule. Maybe try thinking about what Kat might do in your shoes and take it from there. It's amazing how much we've learned from Kat's experience. I think so much of it is not just because of her success, but because of her willingness to open up about her past and how that acted as fuel for what she's accomplished in her career. So now it is time for the final segment that we'll use to close out every episode. And that is our self-care practice of the week. Now feeling as confident as Kat Cole and a new job or any sort of challenging professional situation can be really, really hard. It doesn't come easily for everyone. So our self-care practice of the week is to start a collection of the performance reviews, letters of recommendation, positive feedback, and accomplishments you're proud of think of it almost as like your confidence collection. Whether you save this in an email folder, Google Drive, Dropbox, whatever your preference, keep it all in one place and as searchable as possible. This way, you have easy access to reminders of the things that can boost you back up whenever you're doubting yourself, maybe there's an email from a former colleague commending you on your contribution to a big project or a thank you note from a client for whom you've made a big difference. And here's how I do it. I have a folder of all of the past emails that Morning Brew readers have sent us basically explaining why our business means so much to them. And so any time I'm doubting the impact that I've had as an entrepreneur or doubting my abilities, I always go back to this folder and just try to really internalize and appreciate the impact we've literally had on millions of people and their relationship they have with the business world. These reminders of your previous accomplishments can help you remember the previous challenges you faced and ultimately overcome. They can help highlight the fact that it's not just a fluke, that you are where you are in your career because you've earned it.

Imposters is a production of Morning Brew. Imposters is produced by Micaela Heck. Our executive producer is Brian Henry and our sound engineer is Dan Bouza. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio at Morning Brew. Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia and Jessica Coen is our chief content officer. Our theme song is by the Mysterious and Pseudonymous Breakmaster Cylinder with other music from Breakmaster Cylinder and Dan Bouza.