From Scarcity to Success: Grace Marlin’s Roadmap to Becoming the Top Recruiter in Your Agency

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
2025 is going to be the best year that you've ever had, and we're going to help make that happen. We got two summits heading your way. First of all, in January, the Sales and Business Development Recruiting Summit. Make sure to get registered free for the live sessions or go VIP for the replays. And then the Recruiting Growth Summit is coming back for March. These events are going to help you start strong, run strong, so that way you can finish strong. So let's go. Make sure you get registered.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:25]:
You'll see the link in the show notes. All right, enjoy the podcast. Coming up on this episode of the.

Grace Marlin [00:00:30]:
Elite Recruiter podcast, I was 100% committed, mainly because I had just come off the worst failure of my life, right? So I was in a place where, like, it was embarrassing. Like, I lived my worst case scenario. Everyone thought I was crazy, moving to Panama. They said it was really bad idea and that things were going to blow up in my face. And I was like, oh, no, that's not going to happen. And then it did happen.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:50]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with.

Grace Marlin [00:00:53]:
Your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:56]:
On what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing.

Grace Marlin [00:01:01]:
Mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:07]:
I'm so excited about this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast because I remember sitting in my recruiting chair almost two decades ago trying to figure out this recruiting game because I wanted to win so bad. We're going to talk about in this episode how you can become that elite recruiter sitting in an agency. And here's the cool thing about being at an agency. You don't have to worry about some of the stresses of being a business owner. You can go back to just crushing it, but the question is, how do you crush it? And on top of that, how do you build the respect for yourself as a recruiting professional? Because I think that's one of the secrets that I think many younger recruiters just have not understand it yet. But we're here to talk about it. And I got Grace Marlin in here to kind of share these secrets because she's actually been working with so many agency recruiters that she understands what is helping them win, what's keeping them from winning, and really what separates you so that way you can crush it as an agency recruiter. So welcome to the podcast, Grace.

Grace Marlin [00:02:02]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:05]:
So, real quick, before we start doing a deep dive on how you ended up in this wonderful space you share with the listeners a little bit about what you're doing right now.

Grace Marlin [00:02:12]:
Yeah, so I've been working in recruitment for the past six and a half years almost exactly. And I started out recruiting recruiters. So it was an interesting field to go into, an interesting market to go into when this was my first recruitment role myself. So I had to convince other people in the industry that I knew what I was talking about. Even when I didn't know what I was talking about. I didn't necessarily realize it was going into trial by fire. But once I started to get the hang of it, which for me, I think it took probably like my first six to 12 months to really feel like I knew what I was doing. And once I had gotten to that level, I started to be able to realize how much opportunity there was in this industry.

Grace Marlin [00:02:53]:
And I became very, very passionate about what doing at this point. Now a half owner of my business, I'm really excited to always focus on the agency recruitment space and to introduce other people to this space and also help them elevate their careers, specifically on the agency side.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:10]:
You know, what's wild is I think it maybe it was like my first, like, five years or more in the recruiting space. I did not know that there's recruiters for recruiters.

Grace Marlin [00:03:18]:
Yeah, there still are a lot of people that I come across who don't realize that we exist, too. And honestly, when we first came into the industry in 2018, there weren't that many agencies doing what we're doing. Like, honestly, there was a very small handful of people. So it still, I think, is a pretty young market. Since we've been in the market for, you know, going on seven years next year, a lot more agencies have come into this space and we have, you know, gained a lot more competitors. But compared to a lot of other markets, I think there's still not that many people who are aware of what we do. And then there's also differences too, because, like, we only work agency to agency. A lot of people who might cover what we do will also cover internal recruiters or, like, corporate and operational roles.

Grace Marlin [00:04:02]:
But we are only specifically, like headhunter for headhunters and staffing salespeople. So we only represent producers, we only represent agencies. We don't do any HR roles. We don't do any internal recruiting roles. So we are very specifically just on the agency side. So that's kind of this very, very like, hyper niche that we focused and carved out for ourselves. And so I think our business is a little bit different than some of the other agencies. Who are covering what they do.

Grace Marlin [00:04:28]:
That might work a little bit more broadly.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:30]:
Well, we'll start diving into some of those stories and some of the things that you figured out over time. But how did you even end up in this wonderful world of recruiting?

Grace Marlin [00:04:36]:
Honestly, it is a very long story and I think similar to pretty much everybody in the industry, I fell into it. I don't think anybody really intentionally comes into the industry and is like, I want to be a recruiter. It's like usually something that you kind of stumble into and just happenstance, you know, things work out. And when I first got out of college, I worked in consulting. So I did healthcare finance consulting for four and a half years. Although I was good at it and I got promoted multiple times, I realized a couple things about myself that were very critical. A, I am not a super corporate person. And that was something that I had issues with constantly because I was a top producer.

Grace Marlin [00:05:13]:
And it irritated me to no end because I was consistently a top performer and we were tracked on KPIs and metrics just like anybody in the recruiting industry would be tracked on. So I was a revenue generator, but I was not paid any type of commission. And that's something that irritated me to no end because no matter how much I was overperforming compared to my peers, and that was all stuff that was literally being tracked similar to how we're being tracked in recruiting, I never felt adequately compensated. I always felt like it was unfair that I was getting paid the same amount as other people despite the fact that I was overperforming for them. So what I didn't realize at that time, similar to a lot of people who have kind of a negative connotation when it comes to being in a sales role, I was very anti sales roles because I just didn't think that they were very like. I was like, I didn't go to school, put myself through college in order to get into sales. But ultimately that's the only type of role that will actually make me feel satisfied because there is that direct correlation between my inputs and outputs. And I realized that that was really important to me.

Grace Marlin [00:06:18]:
So I ended up moving outside of the country. It's kind of a long story. I moved for a relationship and I was already ready for something like different in my life. So I kind of blew up my life intentionally. I quit my job in consulting. I sold everything I owned, put my life into two suitcases and I moved to Central America. So I moved to Panama. I lived there for six months.

Grace Marlin [00:06:38]:
I didn't really speak Spanish when I moved there. It's this country where 5% of the population speaks English. So it was a survival skill for. For me to learn Spanish. So in the time that I was there, when I moved, I, like, immigrated, and I was like, I'm leaving the US Like, I'm not going to live here anymore. That being said, the relationship blew up. It was kind of a mess. I came back to the US and, you know, moved back in with my parents.

Grace Marlin [00:07:00]:
I was 26 years old, and I felt like a total failure. But what I knew is I didn't want to go back into consulting, but I had a chance to kind of figure out what I wanted to do with my career. So I was working in nightlife. I was doing bottle service. I was like a bartending, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do next in my career. And I was at the gym one day and working out, and I'd listen to podcasts that my now business partner, Don Don, was interviewed on. So podcasts are really special to me. I love podcasts.

Grace Marlin [00:07:31]:
I met Don Don through a podcast. Her interview really resonated with me because I was kind of a lost soul at that point in my life, and I was like, I need somebody like her. Like, I wanted to just attach myself to her like a barnacle, because she just seemed like she knew what she was doing, and I did not know what I was doing. So she had talked a lot about, like, wealth creation and all the possibilities that come from a career in agency recruitment. And her story is really compelling. I'm sure anybody who knows about me most likely knows about her, too. So I know that she was also interviewed on your podcast, and I was just like, this is somebody I need in my life. So I ended up reaching out to her and said, I don't completely understand what you do in your business, but your interview really resonated with me.

Grace Marlin [00:08:16]:
I listened to it back to back twice, and I just felt really compelled to reach out to you. I've never done that to anyone else, but I would love to see if there's a possibility that we could work together, because she had kind of just started the company that I now work in. I was only like, two or three months old, so we ended up getting connected, talked a few different times. She had me meet different people on the team and was like, okay, I would love for you to come work for me. What I didn't realize at the time, which is fine, but she gave me, honestly, a horrible deal, and it was fine. Like, she gave me zero base, 100% commission and the commission rate was kind of low, but I didn't really care because I was like, I just need to learn this business. And so I continued working in nightlife because I wasn't making any money for like six or seven months when I was working really hard and my parents thought I was crazy. They're like, you're really like, you're working like 12 hour a days and you're making no money.

Grace Marlin [00:09:05]:
Is this lady scamming you? Like, what is going on? And it was just like I had kind of a rough start in the industry, like a lot of people did. My first couple deals fell apart, so it was really like trial by fire. And throughout the time, like learning the business, I started to see all the opportunity and Donnon was so gracious to teach me the business. I ended up moving to the east coast because I was in California at that time. Her and all the rest of the team were on the east coast. So I moved to the east coast specifically to focus on recruitment and dedicate my life to it. And thankfully I did that because now, you know, I have my own company with her. We are now business partners, which is great.

Grace Marlin [00:09:40]:
So that's kind of the journey that I've experienced in the industry. So I've really lived every as like everything I talk to my candidates about, I've lived, I've lived horrible ruts, you know, losing my mojo, getting it back. Like I've been there over and over and over again. And because of that, like I understand the full complexity of how careers can develop in the industry. And that's the reason why I'm able to now focus on helping top producers maximize their careers.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:09]:
Okay, so the consulting role, it almost sounded like you were dealing with the curse of the competence, like where everything was being placed on you and you're looking around like, why are you gauging me like five times harder when they're not doing shit?

Grace Marlin [00:10:24]:
Well, yes and no. So like I actually liked it. I had an amazing manager. So I will give my manager a lot of credit for that. That she's the reason why I stayed for four and a half years because I knew a couple years in I didn't really want to be there anymore. But she was like, she knew how to focus on trying to motivate me. She knew I was really money motivated. So she would probably go out of her own pocket, I think, to like give me gift cards for producing and she would like write me a card.

Grace Marlin [00:10:51]:
She's literally like hiding it in my desk. And she's like, don't let anyone else know that I gave you this because like, she understood that I needed that and she would recognize me in that way. So she was incredible. And she told me, she was like, I know you like having the hardest projects, so I give you hard, messy, complicated projects because it's interesting. Like you like that challenge. So I actually enjoyed it. I just wanted to be paid better. I wanted to be paid more than my peers because I'm like, if I don't mind, I actually enjoy the work.

Grace Marlin [00:11:20]:
I think it's kind of boring to have easy projects like give me the messes, I like that. But also pay me more. But the reality of how they structured their comp structure is they had everyone who started at the same time would be on the same salary. Bands was kind of stuck with the exact position. There was no potential to earn more money regardless of how much you were producing. So I'm like, it's a great business model from the businesses end, but for me it was not a great from the workers side.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:47]:
So your entire life changed from a podcast interview?

Grace Marlin [00:11:51]:
Yep.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:52]:
Like for somebody listening to this podcast, like you said, you've never reached out to anybody before that, right?

Grace Marlin [00:11:58]:
And actually since I don't think I really have either. No. I mean, no, it wasn't like a common practice that I had to email somebody based off podcast interview. But truly, podcast interview changed my life.

Benjamin Mena [00:12:10]:
Completely, which I find is just phenomenal. Like, you never know that the thin string that can completely change our career, change somebody's life. Like, talk about the crazy impact and fast forward. Like, you know, you started working six, seven months in before you made your first placement. Zero percent, like base all commission.

Grace Marlin [00:12:28]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:12:29]:
Why did you not quit those six or seven months in?

Grace Marlin [00:12:32]:
Well, a couple different things. First of all, Donna threw me some bones. Click. She could see how hard I was working and she helped me with like some deal splits. And it wasn't that she didn't want to pay me, it was just that my deals weren't working. But the reason why I kept going was because I could tell, I knew that it was just like I needed to put the pieces together. There were a couple things that I was missing, but I knew I was close. I just needed to figure it out.

Grace Marlin [00:13:01]:
So kind of going into some of the different topics I think that we're probably going to talk about segwaying a little bit into some of the topics we're going to talk about. One of the things that I struggled with earlier in my recruiting career was really being able to figure out what a quality candidate looked like and who was worth my time and who is worth, you know, digging into deeper versus who was most likely going to not work out. So because we are a small agency and, you know, we were kind of just getting started, like, I had the benefit of not having the same amount of metrics that a lot of people have to adhere to earlier in their career. Like, I was taught by an expert headhunter about how to actually run a very high quality recruiting desk. But part of that that I've gained as like a competence level was really understanding who's worth my time and who isn't, being prudent about where I'm spending my time. Because what I ended up doing is I would feel bad for people that maybe were not really cut out for the industry and like, spend way too much time coaching them and, like, getting to know them. And I was kind of like friends with people more than running my desk as a business. So because of that, I was, you know, I was kind of spinning my wheels on a lot of these candidates.

Grace Marlin [00:14:16]:
And that was something that I had to learn how to be more discerning about and also how to focus kind of like on the 80, 20 rules. Like, who are the 20% of people that if I've build my recruitment desk off of them, that they will be the people who will help me do more deals and then also, how can I be more efficient? How can I find the inefficiencies in my desk and also have a keener eye for quality so that I'm not working 12 hours a day with very little to show for it? So those are all things that I need to go through. And honestly, everyone learns a little bit differently. Unfortunately, I am the person who kind of needs to learn by. By my mistakes. It's really hard for me to just like, see other people do it. I was, I'm like, I think I'm gonna be better, I think I'm gonna be different. And then I find out I'm not.

Grace Marlin [00:15:01]:
So I had to go through that myself. And unfortunately, my path was just like, a bit longer. But because of that, I feel very confident that I have earned my place because I really, like, it was really hard for a long time, and I was having to work two jobs. I barely was making any money. I think literally my first year, I made $12,000, literally $12,000 on my tax return, which is the lowest earning year I think I've ever had since I was 14 or 15 years old. And it forced me to, A, make sure I was really committed to this industry. But then B, like, I knew I was building my network and planting seeds, and it was just a matter of time until it came back around. So I had to just exercise patience and be consistent and just keep it going.

Grace Marlin [00:15:44]:
So that's the reason why I stayed committed was because I knew it had potential. I could see it. I just needed to become better, increase my skill set, and then also, you know, be patient because it takes time to do deals and, you know, especially building out, like a really high quality network, it just takes time for things to come back around.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:04]:
So a combination of the lessons that you've learned and the combination of like, all the people that you've been speaking with since you've, you know, we're looking at, what, seven years in, you're probably speaking with, you've probably had a conversation with, I'm guessing about 50,000 recruiters at least.

Grace Marlin [00:16:17]:
Probably, yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:19]:
What are you seeing that separates the recruiters that are crushing it versus the recruiters that are just average versus recruiters that are struggling?

Grace Marlin [00:16:30]:
Yeah, kind of going back to, like, what helped me to become a better recruiter is like, I had to really start viewing my recruitment desk as running a business and having a very, like, commercial instinct about things. So whether that was, you know, making sure that clients were being engaged in the process and that they were helping me be effective at my job and being able to have tough conversations with them, so I wasn't spinning my wheels on stuff or they weren't, you know, giving me the run around. That was one skill set that I had to improve on. And when I didn't do that as much. And the same with candidates too, is like, you know, making sure that people aren't lying to you, making sure that you really are getting to the meat and potatoes. Like, people can say, I'm open to this or I'm open to that, or, you know, I'm comfortable or flexible with salary, or I'm open to relocating. And you have to really hone in. Like, is that actually true or is that just something that they're kind of figuring out? So instead of putting somebody in process, if they're wishy washy about something, I would rather spend more time with them, qualifying them, and really like having a consultative conversation with them just to lay out options.

Grace Marlin [00:17:41]:
So that way, if I'm putting somebody in process, they're very committed. I'm not finding out surprises in the middle that I should have just spent more time on. You know, to uncover. So those are all things like being thorough and being process oriented and making sure that you're only representing high quality clients and candidates, that helps you to build a quality recruitment desk. But beyond that, like, you're also going to have to turn a lot of people down. And there's a lot of people that you're not going to be able to work with. Even if they're amazing people, even if they're kind people, they're just not people that clients are willing to pay you a fee for. So being very clear on, like, what is a fee worthy candidate? What is an actually desirable job? Are clients in line with the market in terms of what they're expecting to get for the money that they're willing to pay? Like, being able to guide those conversations and have them in a very forthright way that's like, if people are out, if their expectations are out of line with reality, you know, whatever in that is.

Grace Marlin [00:18:40]:
Our job as headhunters is to make sure that we are very clear before we go into process with a person as to whether or not, you know, there's any like, glaring potential deal killer or red flag. So the more that I started looking at my desk as like running a business and being very commercial, okay, is this something that's viable? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this somebody that most likely has a very high odds of closing? I started focusing on exclusivity with the candidates because my market's like almost 100% candidate driven. So if I can lock my candidates down on exclusivity and present, you know, four options to them, have them in multiple interview processes, my odds of placing that person are very high versus, like if I'm representing a candidate who is working with three other recruiters, they may be interviewing in places that they're not being honest with me about. Like, there's something that's just going on that I can like throw my hat in the ring and maybe get somewhere, or would I just rather pass on that person and try to find somebody that I can then get on exclusivity, be able to actually manage their process completely and give myself very high odds of placing them right? So I started looking at the value of my time in a very like, clear cut way. And that has helped me to be a lot more effective. I noticed the same thing with the headhunters that I work with people. You know, once people get past like two years in, that's usually the first two years. They're kind of figuring things out.

Grace Marlin [00:20:10]:
Gives you time to see the different variations in the market. Like, obviously the past four years since COVID the market has been on an extremely wild roller coaster and the pendulum has swung very, you know, very far in both directions. So for your first year or two, like, you're just trying to figure things out and get your feet under you. But once you're have really like, established your baseline of understanding about the market and viewing yourself as a professional who actually has insight and can guide conversations and we feel competent in being put into those different scenarios, that can be a little bit tricky, but you know that you can handle them. That's what I think. If you start focusing on, like, you're making sure that you're getting ROI for your time. That's what helps people that a usually work less, but make more. And I think that's most people's goal in the industry.

Grace Marlin [00:20:59]:
Yes, you have to put in the hours, but if you can work 20 hours a week and still bill $1 million a year, that's amazing. I love that for people. But the only people who do that are people who are like laser focused on is this a deal or is this not a deal? And they don't waste their time on taking too many outside shots on things that may not end up actually working out.

Benjamin Mena [00:21:19]:
I think you nailed the laser focus like 20 hours a week. Like, I'm sure you've seen this in your career across time, but you see somebody working 50 hours, but.

Grace Marlin [00:21:26]:
Yep.

Benjamin Mena [00:21:26]:
Would they only do like 10 hours of actual work?

Grace Marlin [00:21:28]:
Honestly, sometimes people are doing 50 hours of actual work because they're just like trying to help everyone and be everything for everybody. Because they're not valuing their own time as a professional. Clients are sending them on wild goose chases and they're allowing clients to do that. They're not, you know, saying, no, I'm not going to work on that, or no, you're like $50,000 below market and you want someone in the office five days a week. Like, that is not something I can fill. And if I happen to be able to feel it, amazing. But like, you have to retain me if you really want me to fill that, or being able to focus on things that are actually going to help them make money because otherwise people just start getting burnt out. Like, they're just trying to help everyone and like, you know, take on a lot of charity cases, but they're not actually, you know, doing deals.

Grace Marlin [00:22:10]:
And that's frustrating for people.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:12]:
Oh, I love that. Charity cases. Oh, I'm saving that one.

Grace Marlin [00:22:16]:
I mean, because if you want to do that, you can do that. But that's also not the way that you're going to make a lot of money in recruiting.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:22]:
I think that's a problem that a lot of new recruiters face is like, when they get into the industry, it's like, hey, like, I'm helping somebody get a job. Like, no, you're helping a company fill a position. Like, yeah. When did that mental switch actually happen for you?

Grace Marlin [00:22:34]:
I think it happened when I wasn't making money. I was exhausted because I was working so hard and I was making nobody. So it's like at a certain point I had to start being like, okay, I gotta fix something because I want to make a lot of money. So like I said, I'm a person who learns unfortunately by my mistakes. And it took me getting burned over and over and over and over and over again to then be like, okay, like something needs to get like, I can't try to like spend 30 hours on something that's going to go nowhere for me. So it took me just getting fed up honestly to start focusing on that. And then it was a lot easier for me to start saying no. And I had to become comfortable with like being the bad guy.

Grace Marlin [00:23:11]:
You know, nobody wants to turn somebody down, especially if it's somebody who's like a really nice person, but they're just not somebody that you can represent or not somebody that is going to be seen as a fee worthy candidate.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:22]:
This is going to sound like a completely stupid question, so just be prepared for that. I feel like I can, like, you know, in the industries that I work in, I can easily tear that apart and figure that out, but I feel like that would be harder to figure out when you're talking to recruiters.

Grace Marlin [00:23:34]:
Yeah, it is. Especially because some people aren't really honest. There's a lot of, unfortunately there's some very big characters and big personality types in this industry and sometimes people can like over exaggerate their results or kind of lie about things. So it took a long time to be able to build, I think my like mental intuition, like recruiter intuition about like, is this, is this somebody I can trust? Is this somebody who is actually, you know, going to be a partner with me in this process? Are they buying into my service or are they just kind of like telling me what I want to hear so that I will then take them on and hopefully they get something out of me? So it took a while to be able to figure that out. Especially because it is a very complicated industry, like how comp structures are set up. You know, obviously I'm selling somebody on, you know, taking a lower guaranteed comp structure than what they're on right now. Like most people, if you're making 150k in recruiting, usually you're on like a 70k base maybe, and you're making most of your money on commission. When I'm placing people, I'm not going to get them 150k guarantee.

Grace Marlin [00:24:36]:
Like that's just unfortunately not how it works in this industry. So I'm having to sell people and walking away from something that's guaranteed for them because it's like the current agency that they're at to go and take a risk on themselves. And you know, sometimes it does make sense, sometimes it doesn't. But I think I just had to build up like intuition and you know, going through a lot of different deals. I think the best thing that people can do is have a very high volume approach when they first get started. Because the more deal cycles that you can see and the more exposure that you get to the different types of variations of deals and kind of understanding the different curveballs that can come and being able to anticipate them better, that helps you to then build up your mental map of how, you know, processes should go, where you can tighten up things, where you can become more efficient, what skill sets you need to improve. Like if you can see where your deals are usually falling off, you can then focus on trying to like shore up that specific area so that you just become a better recruiter and more like an expert of your craft.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:36]:
I have seen so many different styles of people just absolutely crush it in the recruiting game.

Grace Marlin [00:25:41]:
Like, yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:41]:
So the question I'm going to ask is not like the guarantee of this is how I'm going to go. Like I've literally met somebody that I couldn't, couldn't tell when his tone changed, but he built like $3 million as a solo biller. So like, but like, have you like started noticing like certain predictive analytics or characteristics that really stuck out with the successful recruiters that you've been placing?

Grace Marlin [00:26:07]:
Yeah, it's tough because like you said, it's such a spectrum. And I think a lot of it depends on the industry too, because different industries have different personality types. Some markets people are very analytical, kind of dry. So somebody who maybe isn't as charismatic or is a little bit more like, you know, monotone or maybe very introverted can do just fine with those candidates versus if you're trying to recruit salespeople like you Kind of have to be a salesperson to them in order to get them to buy in and engage. So I wouldn't necessarily say that I. Because I've met some very introverted top producers who are, you know, they're on when they're at work, but outside of that, they're like, you know, leave me alone. I think the commercial, like, instincts and being able to guide those conversations is important also. Work ethic is important, but beyond that, like, you have to have a capability to recommit over and over and over again in this industry because it's tough.

Grace Marlin [00:26:56]:
You're going to have to manage yourself more than you manage other people because it's, like, emotionally challenging. You know, people can get really. It's really hard. Like, you know, they'll lose deals, they get frustrated about things. They have to be able to pull themselves out of that, like, rut and be able to recommit over and over again. So that's. I think the actual, like, common thread that I found is people who are capable of A, seeing themselves as a, like a consultative professional and really like, studying their craft, but B, like, really focusing on quality and able to manage their emotions so that they can then be as effective as possible. If they're, you know, super wheelie and daily, then great.

Grace Marlin [00:27:37]:
If they're, like, very introverted, but they're very focused and, you know, they know exactly what they need to do to do deals, then some people can do four deals a year if they're at 250k each and be building a million. So it's like everyone has different approaches to the business, but I think the ability to recommit and to be like a student of your craft is definitely one of the common threads that I've seen.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:58]:
What do you think is a skill set that a lot of recruiters need to start spending more time developing?

Grace Marlin [00:28:04]:
That's a really good question. It's tough to give a blanket answer because every recruiter struggles with different things. So when I'm working with my candidates, I usually try to, like, figure out where their struggles are and kind of coach them on that individually. But no matter what, I think the capability to have tough conversations and to manage tough conversations and to be able to be blunt, honest and consultative is probably the skillset that most people struggle with. You know, it's hard. You have to tell clients when they're not doing what they need to do and be able to kind of call people out for stuff and make sure that they understand that they need to respect you and that your Time is valuable as a recruiter, but a lot of that is like, you have to start seeing yourself that way. So what a lot of people do is they're way too client centric. And obviously clients, we work for our clients and they pay our bills, but we're also not their servants.

Grace Marlin [00:29:02]:
And they need to understand, like, what our job is, what our scope of responsibility is, and they need to respect that. So personally, I have a lot of different kind of controversial viewpoints in this industry, but guarantee periods are something I have a very big problem with. Like, fundamentally, because if I place somebody, they are working at my client every single day, I am not involved with them, I am not managing them, I am not resourcing them. I have no control over whether they're coming to work or not. Like, obviously it can try to influence them. But I personally as a recruiter believe that if at day 89, they decide to quit or they get fired, there's no reason why I should be out of 100% of my fee or have to be like on the hook to replace that candidate. That just, to me, that's completely unfair to a recruiter. My job is to get candidates, get them through the process, make sure that they're interviewing, you know, that clients are able to ask all the questions, do their due diligence, but my client's job is to manage that person and to make sure that they're set up for success.

Grace Marlin [00:30:07]:
If they're incapable of doing that, there's no reason why I should be on the hook for that. I think it's unfair. It really, like, fundamentally doesn't make sense to me. It's something that's like. But I've been able to learn how to have that conversation with clients and say, okay, I need to, you know, restructure our guarantee period, right? So like, we need to have some type of shared risk in this situation. Like, my job is not to keep giving you candidates and you work with them for 89 days and then fire them so that you don't have to pay the fee. Like, I'm not a contract recruiter, I'm a permanent. So if there's some way that we can share and split the risk and that you could also help me help you.

Grace Marlin [00:30:43]:
So if a candidate is having an issue once they're in place, like, I can hopefully coach them or like, we can do something to help them be successful, but treat me as a partner in this process, not as your servant or somebody that is going to take the fall for things that you can't Do.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:58]:
Okay, so you're having these, like, difficult. You've learned how to have these difficult conversations. You think recruiters need to learn how to have these difficult conversations to really grow? But here's a question I have for you just out of curiosity. Like, these are agencies that are having these conversations with their same conversations with their clients. Is it harder to have these, like. These like. Like guarantee period conversations when I'm like, you just had that conversation with your client and you were like, now we're trying to push back on me. Come on, what the hell are you doing?

Grace Marlin [00:31:27]:
Well, I love a lot of things about this industry. I am its number one advocate. I'm also its biggest critic. And there's a lot of sleazy behavior in this industry, and there's a lot of sleazy behavior that agencies will do. So sometimes because their clients screw them over, they then feel like they have agency to screw me over as their vendor, and they don't feel bad about it. So throughout the six and a half years that we've been working in this industry, we have really, like, worked with all different types of agencies. There were plenty of agencies that we signed at the beginning of our firm, you know, that they were just taking a shot on us that we would never partner with in a million years now. So we got comfortable with, like, firing clients, figuring out what agencies are good, what agencies respect us as a partner in the process, and what agencies screw us over.

Grace Marlin [00:32:11]:
So unfortunately, there are plenty of agencies that will have no qualms whatsoever about screwing over their retrox. And that's part of the reason why we had to learn how to be smarter, into how to call this behavior out and how to manage it within clients. Because unfortunately, like, they know all the tricks of the trade and all the dirty things that people can do to agencies. And some of them have no soul, I believe, and they're not very good people. So they have no issues whatsoever trying to do that to us. So we had to learn from our mistakes. And through that, like, that's part of the reason why we are pretty much the top rector in the US Is because we. We know all of these firms.

Grace Marlin [00:32:49]:
Like, especially in New York City, my main market, like, I genuinely know pretty much every single agency, whether they've reached out to me to partner with them, I've poached from them. I used to work with them in the past. Like, we've built up that mental map, and I have a lot of receipts for a lot of agencies that have screwed me over. And that's How I could then help guide my candidates when they're interviewing or talking about different firms. Like, some firms present as being a certain way. But I fundamentally believe if my client is going to screw me over, they will screw my candidate over. And that's somebody that I just don't want to partner with. So that's part of, like, viewing yourself as a professional and someone who deserves respect.

Grace Marlin [00:33:26]:
Like, the longer that you're in the industry, the better of a reputation you have, the more capability you have of determining what clients you want to work with and what clients you don't want to work with. I do believe that as a recruiter, as soon as you let something slide, whether that's a client trying to renegotiate a rate at the 11th hour when they have an offer on the line and they feel like they have leverage, or, you know, them trying to, like, do some weasley things to get out of paying the fee, or trying to negotiate on the side with the candidate and so they can lower how much they bill on and not tell you about it. Like, there's a lot of different things that clients can do that are not great just because they don't respect us in the process. So as soon as you let that slide, especially because they usually pick to do it when they have leverage and you have a deal on the line, especially if you haven't closed a deal that month, you're stressed out about it. And there's that tendency to want to be so client centric that you're like, okay, client. Okay, client. I'm going to just take what you have to say. As soon as they realize that you're that person that they can screw with, they will keep doing that.

Grace Marlin [00:34:29]:
So it's up to us as an industry to stand up for ourselves, to be able to advocate for ourselves in the process. Advocate not only for, you know, our candidates, but also eventually for our clients, too. Because sometimes candidates can do sleazy things in the process, too. So being able to, like, call things out and not take poor treatment and not accept that, that's what helps people to then, you know, learn how to use their time more effectively, to make sure that they feel good about what they're doing. Because if you're getting screwed over by your clients all day long, it's not fun. Like, nobody enjoys that. And most likely you're having a lot lower success and you're probably working with crappy clients that you would not actually feel good about selling on the market just because you want to make sure that you you know, don't make anyone mad. But I think the more that people, like, actually respect themselves as a recruiter and say, like, I want to work with only the best clients, I want to work with only the best candidates, and how can I get myself to a level that I can then call the shots in these scenarios? That's what helps people to make the most money and be the most productive.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:31]:
How does somebody get to that point?

Grace Marlin [00:35:33]:
You have to start viewing yourself that way.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:35]:
Is it a mindset journey? Is it?

Grace Marlin [00:35:37]:
Yes, because there's a few different things. So, like, if people are actually focused on one market specifically, that helps for, you know, the more generalized people are, the more difficult it is to be seen as a top headhunter in a space. Right? So it's like, if you don't have a specific niche, it's really hard to sell yourself as like, I am the recruiter for this specialty. But if you are a specialized recruiter, you understand your market very well, you have your network fully built out. Like, that's something that you can sell to clients in your market, right? Like, I am only focused on this market. I am the market expert, blah, blah, blah. So as soon as you start focusing on one area, really learning that area and becoming like the go to recruiter, that's when you're able to then start calling the shots. But you have to first see yourself as that.

Grace Marlin [00:36:27]:
And a lot of that comes from, you know, trial by fire. The more that you have kind of gone through different deal cycles, that you know that you are committed to this space, that you, you really want to focus on becoming the best recruiter that you can be, then clients will start seeing that in you. It's like they know that you're not going to stop until you get the job done and that you are the right person to go to for the job. But first you have to know, like, is this actually something that you want to do long term? One of the issues that we have in the industry is there's a low barrier to entry. So, you know, people get into it straight out of college, kind of figure out, you know, is this what I want to do for the rest of my career? One foot in, one foot out? Like, do I want to stay on the agency side, Go internal? If anybody is like grappling with these questions about whether they're committed to this role or not, it's going to be tough for them to see themselves as a market expert and person that's a go to in the space because they're kind of figuring out if they even want to keep doing this. So first I think people need to figure out, is this a long term career path for them? But if it is, that's when they can start working on viewing themselves as that, like, go to professional, that person who is the market leader in that space. And a lot of that's like being curious about their market and being a student of the craft. So the people that are committed to listening to podcasts like yours, you know, learning how to become the best recruiter that they can be, that's the mindset shift that then translates into, okay, I don't let my clients mess around with me.

Grace Marlin [00:37:53]:
They understand that when they're partnering with me, they need to give me feedback. They need to be engaged in the process. It's unacceptable if they don't respond to my emails and, you know, leave me hanging or, you know, ghost me or something like, that's all stuff that clients, if they respect you as a headhunter in your space, you are very valuable to them. Like, they don't want to mess around with that relationship because they need you. So how do you get to a space where the clients want to work with you? Like, they want to refer people to you. They don't want to mess up that relationship because they're like, this person gets me, the people that I need. So there's no way I'm not going to give them feedback. There's no way that I'm going to undervalue them and renegotiate their fee at the 11th hour.

Grace Marlin [00:38:31]:
Like, I'm not going to do that because this is a valuable relationship for me. All of that's like, you have to work every single piece altogether. But I think a lot of it starts with that mindset of like, full commitment to being a student of the craft.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:45]:
I love how you just absolutely just broke that down. But I want to kind of shift gears a little bit. Like, you know, some industries, like 2022 was just a gangbuster for so many people. And then walking into 2023 and 2024, like, it wasn't the same for everybody. Like, yeah, you know, we're in the sales industry. Sales is hard. People get burnt out. How do you start getting through those burnout periods?

Grace Marlin [00:39:06]:
It's tough. I mean, I don't think I've talked to a single person honestly, who isn't at least a little bit burnt out. I think it's like a combination of a lot of different things. It's been a very tough past four years. You know, Covid was Hard, mentally, very challenging. Being locked down, you know, not being able to have like a full social life and have those kind of like, releases that people would have of like, you know, being able to live a very full and very life. Not only that, like you said, the market has been insane. So went from, you know, being like a hyper inflated, amazing market where like, deals kind of felt like they were falling out of the sky.

Grace Marlin [00:39:43]:
And most recruiters are like, turning down business from their clients because they were so overworked, to then feeling like you're in the middle of the desert and there's no possible way that you can even get a client to give you a role. And not only that, like, there was a lot of recession, fear, and like, you know, storms, natural disasters. Not only that, Covid, like, there's just a lot of things happening all at the same time. Civil unrest in a country, whatever. Like, there's a lot going on. It's really mentally challenging to just be alive, I think, let alone to be a recruiter in the market and to be able to like, adjust to them crazy swings. Because it was like most people had their best year at 2022 that they've ever had, and most agencies were, you know, like 40% over what they did the year before. And just like, everyone's just like, wow, this is amazing.

Grace Marlin [00:40:31]:
Like, you know, that's when people started getting all the perks. Like, agencies were just going left and right, doing whatever they could to try to, you know, get people to join them, giving them sign on bonuses, giving them way higher salaries. And like, not only that, most people's candidates were getting crazy packages, like, to then go into like, what felt like an off, you know, awful market. Whereas, like, I'm working 12 hours, I have nothing to show for it. And that was really hard and like, for people to adjust to. And a lot of people had, were like, is this me? Is this the market? Like, I don't know what's going on. And they had like, started getting a little bit depressed. So I was having a lot of these conversations with a lot of different recruiters.

Grace Marlin [00:41:08]:
I think everyone's had some type of burnout. What I always tell people is like, you need to figure out, is it your firm that's like, you know, screwing you over? Are they, like, tightening the screws on you? Are they micromanaging you to the level that's unrealistic and kind of driving you nuts or up a wall? Is it that you just can't handle the wild pendulum swings of the market? And it's Too stressful for you to be in a commission oriented role where you're kind of at the mercy of the market to an extent. Extent. But you know, the whole like process of feeling like you have nothing to show for all the work that you're doing is something that you just can't mentally handle. In those cases. I always recommend that people just exit the industry if it's like too mentally challenging and depressing and they just don't want to do this long term. Like figure out what you want to do with your life. Best thing that you can do early in your career is try different things out.

Grace Marlin [00:41:58]:
There's a lot of translatable skills in this industry that you can take into any other industry. So if it's really just that mentally taxing and challenging, that it's not worth it. I don't think there's any shame in making that decision for yourself.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:10]:
What if you don't want to exit the industry and like you just wack, go to like a different place.

Grace Marlin [00:42:14]:
So that's where I recommend that people usually move agencies. So if they're just in an environment like usually most people's first agency is going to be a large agency, like typical career progression in this industry is starting out at a large agency that has a, you know, well developed training and development program. I call them grad shops. You know, most people have that where it's like you're working, you have like crazy KPIs, your manager's breathing down your neck all the time. You know, you're kind of like they're banging on you constantly and you feel like you have no leash whatsoever. That's most people's first agency. And you learn the business, which is great, but after a couple of years, most people can't handle it anymore.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:54]:
I'm just laughing because like I remember, I remember my days early on. I remember like some of the conversations we had if somebody like went internal, it's like, oh, look at them, they went internal. They're a failed agency recruiter. And then I went internal. I'm like, I was like top of the freaking charts and I made more money internally. I didn't know that there was other agencies out there that had better comp structure, better training and all sorts of stuff like that.

Grace Marlin [00:43:14]:
Buy me up your comp structure at your first agency.

Benjamin Mena [00:43:16]:
It was like 27k for the first 13 weeks. Got up to like 32k and I think like my gross margin was something like just shy of 650k and I made like 62,000 and I'm like, I was on a 27k base, I got up to 33.

Grace Marlin [00:43:33]:
Oh my God, that's, that is rough. That is vague.

Benjamin Mena [00:43:37]:
Like looking back, I'm like, I understand why people quit.

Grace Marlin [00:43:41]:
I mean, I don't blame you. You're 100% gonna make more money. Internal. I have, so I have this like belief system that if you're a top performer and you're not making a hundred thousand in an agency, I don't blame you for wanting to leave. Like that's, that's not worth it. Like this is way too hard of a job to not make a good amount of money, at least a six figure amount of money if you're a top performer.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:02]:
So, okay, like what should somebody be looking at for if they hit that point? Like, you know, maybe I need to make a move.

Grace Marlin [00:44:08]:
Well, I mean, they usually end up working with me. I'm happy to help them make that move. That is my entire business is helping people make that move. But so a couple different paths. For people that are full desk or sales oriented, those are the people that will have the most opportunities in the market. Right. Because right now we're in a very like client centered market. There's a shortage of jobs and there's, you know, not as many people that are focused just on recruiting.

Grace Marlin [00:44:34]:
So if people don't have sales skills and they're within the first year or two of their career, I highly recommend that people get on the sales side and become client facing as soon as possible if they want to stay in this career long term. If they don't end up going onto the client side, they're just going to be limited in their options because they're doing basically half of the job. So if there's an opportunity at their current firm for them to do that, that's always the best option. If there isn't an opportunity for them to do that, that's the first thing that I would be advising them to look at in another firm. So find a firm that will teach you the sales side. If that's not an option that you have in your current firm, the more that you start to gain client relationships, the more that you are client facing, the more value that you're going to have in the industry internally and externally. Because client relationships are what agencies value the most. Right.

Grace Marlin [00:45:25]:
The viewpoint of most agencies is they can, you know, hire entry level recruiters straight out of college, pay them like 30 grand, like you're getting paid, you were getting paid, and teach them how to recruit. The harder thing is teaching people how to sell on the client side. And those relationships just take time to develop. So if they're not on the sales side, A, figure out how they can, but B, then it's starting to figure out, like, what environment can I see myself thriving in? Those are questions that people have to really like, ask for themselves. So what I try to pick apart when I'm working with a candidate that is considering leaving, considering staying, they're not really sure what to do. I always try to help them zoom out of their experience. So it's like, do they actually like the job? A, if they like what they're doing, they like, you know, working with clients, they like working with candidates. They enjoy the doing deals stuff.

Grace Marlin [00:46:14]:
It's just they're not in the right firm. Then I try to figure out with them what are the things in their firm that they don't like, what would be, you know, best suited for them to be successful in their next environment. And then, you know, help them find an agency that will provide that. Some cases they need more structure. Like, they are a person that they don't necessarily mean micromanagement, but they need a bit more structure. So that's an agency where they're going to be the most successful working in a team. Most likely they're going to need to be in the office at least a couple of days a week. Like, that helps them to be on top of what they're doing, keep them on track.

Grace Marlin [00:46:48]:
Because, you know, a lot of recruiters have adhd. So for some people, they need a little bit more management just to make sure that they're focused on what they need to be doing. But other recruiters are like, I got this. I want my manager to never talk me. So not in those cases, especially if they're a full desk recruiter, I can place them in an agency where they may never even meet their manager in person. They're just kind of running their own desk, doing their own deals. They check in once a week. Like, that's great.

Grace Marlin [00:47:13]:
Other recruiters are like, I, there's no way I could do that and be successful. I'm good enough at managing myself. So it's like figuring out what their personality type is, what will set them up for success and ultimately what they're going for. Are they the person who wants to work 80 hours a week and make half a million dollars? Okay. Then they need to go in a firm that's going to a give them the best quality markets and also take off as many parameters and restrictions from their market as Possible so that they aren't just focused in one tiny area, you know, is going to max out their business. That's like a lot. It's a bit a very like big decision making tree that I work with, with candidates. But generally speaking you have to have some level of self awareness about what isn't working.

Grace Marlin [00:47:51]:
And a lot of times it does take like me working with them to figure out what that is. Because a lot of times what people think is the issue may not actually be the issue. That's just their main frustration point. But it's actually like a symptom of something that's a little bit deeper that we then try to work on together to figure out what that is.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:10]:
Love that good breakdown. That's something I probably should have sat down and did. Like when I was looking at saying goodbye.

Grace Marlin [00:48:15]:
Yeah, it's hard. I mean just like everyone talks about it. It's like when you're talking to your clients and candidates, like you can see the thousand foot view. When you're looking at your own career, it's a lot harder. Like even if you're a recruiter.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:26]:
I remember like my breaking point was like when they took like I never wanted to do, do the sales side of the house, which was a mistake that like looking back on, I wish I could go back and do. But I found a new client, I opened it up, got the deal signed, turned into a whale of a client, and then they completely carved that state away from me and gave it to another manager. And then at the end of the year, they're like, you, you missed the President's Club by $2,000 and it's all your fault. You should have worked harder. I was like, you guys just took my business.

Grace Marlin [00:48:52]:
To me, that is like, that's the stuff about agencies that drives me nuts. Like if somebody is bringing in that business for you, protect that market share for him. Like, that's so unfair to do that to people. Literally.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:04]:
I got told like, this is politics. It's how it goes. And I'm like, but that was my pocketbook.

Grace Marlin [00:49:09]:
And $2,000 is like, that's even if they just threw you a bone. Like, the amount of loyalty that they would get from you is you probably would have stayed for years after that. It's like, that's the thing about agencies that drives me nuts. It's like they will cut off their nose despite their face. It doesn't make sense.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:24]:
Well, anyways, before we jump over to quickfire questions, is there anything else that you want to cover or share about how to become a successful recruiter within the agency world.

Grace Marlin [00:49:32]:
I feel like I've talked a lot about so many different topics, but the best advice that I can give anyone and I, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. But, like, view yourself as somebody who adds value. You're not just a recruiter if you're a really good headhunter. You are so much more than that. You are literally a consultant basically for your clients and candidates. Like, you are somebody who can actually make markets. Like, you can make some moves, you can move teams, you can, like, do mergers and acquisitions. Like, there's so many different things that we can do with this skill set that we're not just resume factories.

Grace Marlin [00:50:07]:
So if you're working with clients or you kind of are a resume factory because you haven't really liked, valued yourself as that professional, the best thing you can do is start taking this really, really seriously. Because the more that you do that, like, that will translate to your clients and candidates. Like, they can feel the seriousness of how much of a student of your craft you are in your conversations. You can work at higher rates, you can work with the top people. And that just makes the job so much more fun than kind of like feeling like you're just getting the run around and being yanked around by a ton of different people. People. Because that's all, you know, that's normal in the industry.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:45]:
I love that. And that kind of goes into like the first quick fire question. Like, you gave it like an overall thing. I think that takes out my second question. But, like, if somebody's literally just getting started in recruiting, like, they're listening to this podcast interview, they're in their first week or first month. What advice would you tell them to really set yourself up for a successful career?

Grace Marlin [00:51:04]:
I mean, I think know that it's going to take a while to be successful. You're not going to probably jump out of the gates and be like, top this and that. Like, you have to be willing to eat a lot of shit in the industry. So the more that you put yourself out there and just like, deal with it over and over and over again, you have to deal with the rejection. You have to, like, listen to your manager when they're telling you to do something. You don't necessarily know what you're doing. And you can't necessarily choose how to do things better if you don't know what you're doing on a baseline. So that's something.

Grace Marlin [00:51:30]:
I talked to, like, ambitious young recruiters. They're like, you know, my Manager doesn't know what they're talking about. And I'm like, well, have you been doing any deals? No, I haven't been doing any deals. I'm like, all right, first of all, just, like, execute the playbook. The playbook is very simple. Once you have enough reps and you have success under your belt, that's when you can start changing things up. You can start calling the shots, blah, blah, blah. But the sooner that you can get out there and just, like, almost like robotically over and over and over and over and over again get the reps in, that's the best thing that you can do for yourself because you start building up that mental map of how deals go, how different things can, you know, flow in the industry, how you can tighten up your process.

Grace Marlin [00:52:07]:
And those are all things. Like, you have to first put in the reps and put in the work work. Once you do that, then you can start kind of refining your process and usually working a lot less hard, but working a lot smarter.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:18]:
Has there been a book that has had a huge. I understand a podcast has literally changed your life, but has there been a book that's had a huge impact on your career?

Grace Marlin [00:52:26]:
Also, I would say for recruitment specifically, Donnon actually wrote a book on agency recruitment, and I edited the book for her. So that didn't obviously exist when I first started out, but I would highly, highly recommend that people order Dandon book. But beyond that, I really like the book Top Biller by Steve Guest. There are very few books that are geared specifically to agency recruiting. Right. A lot of books are about hr. They're about sales. It's not specifically like this industry.

Grace Marlin [00:52:54]:
So there are very few books that are catered to us because we're kind of, you know, a little bit of an undercover industry that most people don't know about. So Top Biller by Steve Crest is amazing. And then Don's book, Agency Recruitment 101, are two books that I would definitely recommend.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:08]:
Do you have, like, a favorite, like, tech tool or rec tech tool that you absolutely love?

Grace Marlin [00:53:13]:
I'm a really bad person to ask about this because I feel like I'm a boomer sometimes. Like, the older I get, I think I do things a lot more manually than I really need to. But, I mean, obviously LinkedIn is my. It's my baby building up my following on LinkedIn. That's another thing, too, that I guess if we're going to advise for recruiters, like, if you can start building your presence on LinkedIn, that's something that has fed Me been, you know, really started focusing on content, and I think that's been a really big game changer for my book of business. At this point, I'm getting pretty much all my business inbound, which is an amazing place to be, and I'm very grateful for that. But that came from, you know, building up my presence on LinkedIn, like, content within their industry and become market leaders. And honestly, even if you're not that good of a recruiter, if you market yourself as such, people will believe you.

Grace Marlin [00:54:01]:
So that's an easy, like, hack. You know, if you start putting yourself out there online, I think that also really helps.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:08]:
I think, like, this wild thing is LinkedIn articles. I have an article from, like, literally the beginning of COVID that still brings in leads.

Grace Marlin [00:54:16]:
Wow, that's amazing.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:19]:
But it's like that what you just said is like, you know, put something out there and people start seeing you as a industry leader.

Grace Marlin [00:54:24]:
And yeah, I've even seen people, like, people can be so creative with it, but you have to be brave to be able to put yourself out there. You know, it's like you have to be open to kind of the potentially, like, people looking a little bit stupid or people kind of making fun of you, like, oh, you think you're so good, like, you're just putting content out there like that. You have to be willing to deal with all of that.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:44]:
But wait real quick. Did those people pay your bills?

Grace Marlin [00:54:46]:
Huh?

Benjamin Mena [00:54:47]:
Did those people pay your bills?

Grace Marlin [00:54:49]:
Oh, of course they do. Because I need all of their attention and affirmation. I'm a kid. No, but that's something I think that, you know, a lot of people do struggle with, like, the fear of being judged. But if you can get over that, you understand everyone else is dealing with that too, then you're obviously going to have a lot of results to show for it.

Benjamin Mena [00:55:06]:
So, like, looking back on your recruiting career, like, you didn't quit. It sucked. Your first year, you grounded out. You worked another job with pay bills, like, all sorts of stuff. You hustled, lived with your family, but you didn't quit. And you've started putting all these pieces together over the course of your recruiting career. Is there something that you can, like, look back on yourself and kind of contribute to, like, why you've been seeing this kind of success that you've been seeing?

Grace Marlin [00:55:32]:
I think the thing that was really, like, pivotal for me is I had full 100% commitment. I was never one foot in, one foot out. And I think that you need to have that to be successful in this industry, like, you can't come in looking for, okay, how can I get shortcuts? And, like, you know, how can I not work hard? I was a hundred percent committed, mainly because I had just come off the worst failure of my life, right? So I was in a place where, like, it was embarrassing. Like, I lived my worst case scenario. Everyone thought I was crazy, moving to Panama. They said it was really bad idea and that things were going to blow up in my face. And I was like, oh, no, that's not going to happen. And then it did happen.

Grace Marlin [00:56:10]:
But from living that failure, I then had, like, nothing to lose and I wasn't afraid. It helped me lose a lot of, like, fear of being judged, which I think you need to be successful in this industry. Like, you are going to look stupid. You are going to put your foot in your mouth as you're learning. Like, you figure things out, you make mistakes and you have to be able to bounce back from them. What I found is, like, the quicker that I can bounce back from something, the more successful I'm going to be. Because it's inevitable that I'm going to mess things up. Things can slip through the cracks.

Grace Marlin [00:56:39]:
Like, I can't let that make me view myself as being bad at what I do. Just because I made a mistake doesn't mean I'm a bad recruiter. What do I do? I own it, figure out what went wrong, be honest with myself, take accountability, clean up a mess if I need to and get back on the horse. That's the process that I started to refine is like, yes, okay, things didn't go my way. That's not great. It sucks. And I'm going to let myself feel that for a minute. But, okay, I need to get out there and I need a quick win.

Grace Marlin [00:57:07]:
So I have a whole process when something doesn't go my way. And I'm bummed about it because inevitably, like, you're going to deal with that in this industry. Like, something didn't work out that looked like, oh, I thought it was going to be a dealer. Like, man, I haven't closed a deal in a month. And like, the one deal that I had in my pipeline is not looking good and, like, it just fell apart and blew up in my face and it sucks. And it's Friday and I'm going to the weekend depressed because I don't know when my next commission check is coming in. My manager's mad at me. Like, those are all things that people deal with over and over and over again.

Grace Marlin [00:57:34]:
So, like, learning how to be able to be fully committed. It helps you then, okay, bounce back. Like, okay, I'm not questioning about whether this is right for me or not. I know it's right for me. Things didn't work out my way, so what am I going to do? I'm going to figure out what went wrong, feel the feels for a minute, but also not let myself follow in it. And then I want to go for a quick win and I need a win. So what am I going to do? I'm going to start sourcing. If I get a call on the calendar, that's going to make me feel great.

Grace Marlin [00:58:01]:
Like, I just need something that makes me feel good. And that's kind of the process that I've come up with. Like, I have a whole process about how I handle myself mentally when I lose a deal. But that starts from like taking full accountability, right? I have to look at myself in the mirror. Did I do everything I could do? Was I thorough? Did I, you know, shirk any responsibility? Did I let something slip through the cracks? Was I not on top of things? Okay, if that happened, then I can't be mad about losing that deal. In reality, I didn't do everything I should have done. So what am I going to do next time? I want to make sure I do everything I should do. And I'm going to apologize to people if I let something, you know, if I didn't show up as I needed to as a professional, but then like, I need to figure out what that is and then learn that I can fix it and get back on the horse.

Grace Marlin [00:58:42]:
And I think I was forced to do that over and over, over again because my first year sucked so bad. That's why a lot of chances to self reflect and take accountability for things not going my way. But all of that helped because I was fully committed to this industry and to like building myself as a recruiter. I wasn't like, okay, I lose the deal. I can't handle it. I'm gonna leave. Like, I was like, okay, I need to get better at this. I need to crack this code.

Grace Marlin [00:59:04]:
How can I do that? And I think a full commitment is honestly what I would tell anyone to do. Like, I would just make it your entire life. Honestly. If you can do that for your first three to six months, like eat, sleep, breathe, dream recruiting, you're going to be a lot better for it in your first year.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:22]:
Looking back on your career in the recruiting space and like, we've done a good job kind of like walking through the puzzle pieces. Of your first year and a combination of what you've seen from other people and like really what just like zeros in on how to be successful in this space. But let's look past that first year where you figured it out with everything that you know now with the partnership, you know, the co founder or co owner of the company, crushing it with the content inbound leads all this stuff. So fast forward past the first year, you're in your second year in this game. If you had the chance with everything that you know now to go back and have a conversation with yourself, what advice would you give yourself?

Grace Marlin [00:59:57]:
I would have given myself a few different pieces of advice. I was still at that point a little too focused on being nice. You know, I wanted to be liked and I wasn't putting myself out there content wise as much as I should have. I didn't really start doing content until going into my third year. And part of it was like I didn't want to step on toes. I was too concerned about being, you know, universally liked versus being effective. So that's the advice that I would have given myself earlier is just like, get out there. Like just who cares what people think about you? The sooner that you start, the more effective you're going to be.

Grace Marlin [01:00:32]:
That would be the advice I think for anyone going into their second year honestly, is like, if you aren't doing content by the end of your first year, start doing content. Like that would be the best advice that I can give across the board because that's going to be the difference. Like you know enough after your first year that you can feel comfortable creating content like you know what you're talking about. In your first year it's a little harder because you might still be learning the ropes. But in your second year, if you aren't already doing content, you need to.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:56]:
Start think I did start doing content for like my 15th year.

Grace Marlin [01:01:01]:
I mean, honestly, like there aren't that many people doing it. It's great. It's like a wide open landscape. It's a really easy way to differentiate yourself because once you start shouting about what you're doing, then people will start thinking about you more. And all of that is like going to give you more business. It's like very, very simple.

Benjamin Mena [01:01:17]:
For anybody that's been listening to this, if they want to follow you, which I'm sure you're going to share the exact place where I'm thinking. But how can they go about following you?

Grace Marlin [01:01:26]:
LinkedIn is the place to be. LinkedIn's really the only social media platform that I focus on. I'm not an influencer, like, on Instagram or anything like that. Everything else that I have is just my personal stuff. But for like, the actual following is everything that I do is on LinkedIn. Awesome.

Benjamin Mena [01:01:40]:
And before I let you go, is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners?

Grace Marlin [01:01:44]:
No, I just am really grateful for the opportunity to be here. I'm always happy to talk shop with people. So if you are a recruiter who is thinking about your career, especially if you are full desk, if you're sales focused, I only represent people in this industry. So if you're considering working with a rec2 rec, I would love to be the person that you consider working with.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:05]:
Awesome. Well, Grace, I just want to say thank you for, like, really just breaking out the puzzle pieces and putting them together and how to win in the agency space, but also, like, how to build respect for yourself as a recruiting professional. Because, man, this conversation really took me back to my early days where I was nice and being nice, like, fucked up the first, like, six, seven months of my recruiting career. Like, it sucked. I had to learn how to be good.

Grace Marlin [01:02:27]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:28]:
And being good is when I started to respect myself. So literally this conversation took me back to those early days where you can learn how to become the professional, the respected professional out there. So, Grace, I just want to say thank you and for the listeners, we're coming in at the end of the year. Spend time with your family. When you're there, spend that time with them, but you're not there and you're back on your recruiting desk. Everything that you're doing now is going to set you up for 2025. And I believe 2025 is going to be the year of personal abundance for yourself. So let's go crush it.

Grace Marlin [01:02:56]:
I have one final thought. I apologize. That reminded me about the being nice versus being effective. I have firmly believed that being nice is actually being clear. Like, if you can't help somebody, let them know if you're not the right person for the job or, you know, unfortunately, you just don't have the bandwidth to take on this project and be able to deliver on it in a way that's going to make everyone happy. The more that you're honest about that, that is actually being nice. It's not just telling people what they want to hear and, you know, kind of backing yourself in the corner, being yanked in every direction. It's being clear about, this is where I'm good, this is where I'm not, and this is where I can help you in managing expectations so that people aren't, you know, wondering what's going on.

Grace Marlin [01:03:39]:
So that I think clear is kind is, like, one of my favorite sayings. But I think that's different than how most people view is that you feel like you kind of have to just be like a yes man. That's not actually being nice.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:48]:
In my opinion, that right there is the perfect way to end this conversation. So, Grace, thank you.

Grace Marlin [01:03:53]:
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This is fun.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:56]:
All right, let's go crush it, guys.