The Power of Curiosity, Empathy, and Tenacity: A Recruiter's Guide to Success with Brian Fink

Intro [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the elite recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:18]:

I'm excited about this episode of the elite recruiter podcast. I have a guest that I have looked up to for a long time. Excited that he's on the podcast to share. Brian Fink, extraordinary recruiter, extraordinary sourcer, and also has just written the book. Talk tech to me. To help explain the technology world of recruiting to experience recruiters and brand new recruiters. And here's the thing that I love about this book. When I first started off from recruiting and Brian's probably the same way, we just kinda had to figure it out. There wasn't like that many tools. Like, if you wanna read about software development, you actually picked up a a Java book or something of that nature. Brian has, like, done a good job condensing all that information, into a easy to read book so that way, newer recruiters don't have to deal with the same struggles that we did. So, Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Brian Fink [00:01:09]:

Thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm Benjamin as you go. This is one of those things. Like, I I DM you at, like, 6:30 in the morning. When I'm like, where is my podcast? I'm going on a run. I need my fuel. What's going on? I'm excited to be a part of the program. Thank you so much for having me.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:25]:

Well, before we get started, I just also wanna say, I thank you so for all the years of you know, giving back to the entire recruiting community that you've done.

Brian Fink [00:01:34]:

Well, you know, I'm happy to do it. I think that I think it comes from a place that when I first got into recruiting that there were a lot of walls and a lot of silos, and I didn't exactly understand that. As I as I kind of closed my first, like, big $100,000 multi multilayer deal with a with a client, I found out that teaching their recruiters to be better recruiters and deared me to them and to the hiring managers, and it laid up more opportunities for me to work on either that exec surge or to work on multiple smaller opportunities and really have a a presence in their organization as a trusted talent partner. Which ultimately everybody says they wanna be, but, like, are they really putting in the work or the value to make that happen?

Benjamin Mena [00:02:17]:

Well, before we start doing a deep dive in the book, being that valued partner, how did you even end up in this world of recruiting?

Brian Fink [00:02:25]:

Okay. So, there there are two roads that I took, and I'll make it real simple. That, somebody tapping on the shoulder and said, Brian, you're gonna be the rush chairman for our fraternity. I knew that we had a small pledge class. My year, and my goal was to substantially double that pledge class the next year. I did that. And then Then it just kept going for, like, multiples on on driving that. So being a rush chairman, damn glad to meet you, was kind of my training ground on that, but the way that I got into agency recruiting is I had there was a young lady. Her name is Tammy Good. She's at Google. Katie was at Pfizer. She tried to recruit me via pharmaceutical sales rep, and I was really interested in the mechanics of how the deal was done, like, the double sided deal between the hiring manager and the candidate. And then Jeff Faudette gave me opportunity to go into an agency to do that to find great sales professionals. So that's the quick one too.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:21]:

Well, that's awesome. That's, like, being a in the fraternity would really prep you for this wonderful world that we're both in.

Brian Fink [00:03:28]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, you you have no idea what's gonna happen or I'm not at anybody's mouth, and you're like, okay. I identify with that, and I'm gonna find you somebody who also identifies with that so that you feel at home and at least Awesome.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:43]:

Well and so looking at your your background, you've done executive search, you've done the agency side, but you've kinda shifted more towards the sourcing side of the house.

Brian Fink [00:03:51]:

Yeah. So back in, I guess it was with Zocdoc. So I had Zocdoc as a client, and they were looking so I had Zocdoc as a client, And then I went from having them as a client to going to rebuild the night and agency and then was in New York, and they were like, oh, hey. You should should come hang out and see what we're doing. And then they were like, we need somebody to bump up sales sourcing. And I was like, I'm really doing the technical thing now. What do you what do you need done? And so partnered with Cory Ishihara weighing there to really up level, both from a trading perspective, but also from a candidate generation standpoint. But but we had a different understanding of what sourcing is, and it's carried me through and made me successful to this day. I have an argument with sorcerers. I am not a list builder. I will build a list, but I'm going to get on the phone and qualify those candidates make sure they're interested, educated, and qualified for the opportunity before I turn the name over to you. Okay? So that makes my sourcing a little bit different. I was able to find, a brother from another mother and Steve Rath who was doing the same thing at Apple. And Steve took me to Apple to be a sourcer there. Had a great run. Had a lot of fun, building with the Apple Media product If you use iTunes or use a podcast app like this one, then you're probably familiar with the technology that we're responsible for building. From there, I just kind of started riffing on doing the frontline finding of the individual. I found it very similar to what I'd done in agency land. Yeah. Just like passing over the individual once I made sure that they were the right individual and passing them directly to the hiring manager as opposed to giving a list to somebody else for them to call.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:38]:

So, like, I've done a lot of client support over the years, and I've done, like, a lot of the sourcing side too. And I well, it's clear that I I I'm glad that you brought this up because, like, when I picture the sourcing work that I that I've done for clients, I have my list, which I'm happy to show them, but I'm really giving them the clients that are actual candidates that are qualified and have expressed interest in the opportunity.

Brian Fink [00:06:02]:

But but expressed interest in the opportunity. So this is an argument I get with people in into the people is if if if you reach out to Benjamin, you say, hey, Benjamin. I've got an opportunity at X. Well, I can't say X anymore because I used to work there. Alright. So if you have, like, an opportunity, to work and to to work at McAfee, are you interested? And they say yes. That is in a conversation. Right? That's like qualification over email. Like, what are you supposed to do? Am I supposed to send you a survey and ask you Can you tell me how much Python you have? Can you tell me how much salt or state and local accounting experience you have? Like, It's not just finding people who have raised their hand that say, oh, I'm interested in having a conversation. It's about genuinely finding those people who are qualified that are doing the heavy lifting, that are doing the hard work, and understanding the problem at the core that they like to solve. Yeah. I don't think you do that over email.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:56]:

And you you can't do that over email, but also it's a thing. Like, I think there's something that's impacted a lot of, like, the sources in the recruiting community is I've seen some of them that they just build out a list and then they're done. And the yeah. Yeah. Like, that's super important. Crazy thing is technology's starting to do that too, but you have to to keep on adding value until you evolve. Like, you have to dig a little deeper than just building the list and hand to get over.

Brian Fink [00:07:22]:

I agree. And what I think though is that I think that and it's core though that people value sourcing because it is generating passive candidates, not generating those active individuals, funding those people who You know, they LinkedIn puts out a statistic that, like, 85% of people on LinkedIn are open to talking about a new opportunity. Well, great. If that's if that's true, right, then that means you send out a 100 in mails and 85 people are gonna come back, and they're gonna say, I'm interested. You turn those 85 people over to us to a recruiter and you say, I'm done. You go deal with that shit.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:57]:

Well, I think that the problem where LinkedIn gets that that stat wrong is yesterday. In fact, 85% of people that would be interested. I mean, what is the opportunity? Is it like a $1,000,000 salary?

Brian Fink [00:08:07]:

Cool.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:07]:

85% of it people would answer that.

Brian Fink [00:08:09]:

Rather than absolutely.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:11]:

I love a late gen statistician.

Brian Fink [00:08:14]:

It's okay. It's okay. But but to that, right, like, You say 85 percent of people would be interested to a $1,000,000 a year salary. Right? How do we know it goes back to that? How do we know that you're qualified? Right? Like, You know, one of the things that I I can actively tell you and people seeing some of my LinkedIn, I am recruiting for a lot of AI roles right now. Right? Everybody seems to know everything about LLMs according to their LinkedIn profile. But if I don't dig deeper and this is the importance of having a researcher or or sourcer, that does the deep due diligence, if I don't go to Google dot I mean, scholar dot Google dot com and look to their papers and figure out who actually was doing this 4 years ago in their PhD program, then then I'm left with a list that's really bummed that's not qualified.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:02]:

And before we start talking about some of your sourcing secrets, I we're we're gonna we're gonna go there. I wanna go back to the book.

Brian Fink [00:09:11]:

You're okay. Alright.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:12]:

Why did you write this book?

Brian Fink [00:09:14]:

I wrote the book for 2 reasons. One is kinda I didn't have a guide when I was a junior recruiter. Like, with the best thing that I had was Jeffrey Ginemer's little red book of sales. Right? And I don't think that there existed the right tool to teach a junior recruiter or what I like to say is a better recruiter, how to be the best recruiter. Right? So the book includes not only like here's the here are the hints and tricks and tips that you need to understand the technical realm Here's what it means to be a good talent partner. So, like, you get into chapter 7 of the book and chapter 7 and chapter 8 really talk about what's the importance of diversity and how that creates friction in your organization, how friction produces fire, how fire produces results, So, and and also, I'm noticing when I teach junior recruiters that, like, they are pulling out their smartphones and they are taking lots of pictures of when I do Boolean search. I don't understand why that is happening. So, like, I dedicated a full chapter to Boolean search in the book, I did a chapter to software development life cycle, and then the rest of it is is like 80, 70, 60% of it is this is how this technology works. Here's an analogy. This is like what it would be like if you went to a party, and this is what you can say not to appear to be really smart but for you to have that competency and that confidence to deliver and ask that question. So that's part 1. Part 2 I I talk about the the latter half of the book is that I really wanted to make an impact in, in different skill sets, right, I look at my daughter and if she's listening to this in 20 years, then I have not done my job as a parent. She detour her from getting into recruiting. But that's but the thing but the thing is, Benjamin, is that there's such a low threshold to getting into recruiting is that for me to joke that a seven year old could be twenty seven and say, wanna be a recruiter. I want them to pick up the book and for them to do it well and to treat their candidates with respect. So that's what I got.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:19]:

So in when it comes to, like, the threshold, like, there is such a low threshold of recruiting and every like, there are so many of us just kind of, like, happenstance. We run into this industry. And outside, I hate to say this outside my, I think, my initial week of training as an agency recruiter, maybe 2 weeks of training as an agency recruiter. Like, everything else is learning on your own.

Brian Fink [00:11:41]:

Exactly. So why not provide a book that you can go through and you can bookmark and you can figure things out? I mean, Benjamin, I'm not I'm not sure about you, but I get 7 emails or emails a day telling me that I would be a great software developer Like, I'm happy to show them to you. Right? And and but the fact of the matter is is that people are doing keyword matching. They're not actually even reading the profile. They're living up to some some standard that doesn't make sense that you have to send 200 in mails a week to be successful at this role. They've got their metrics all out of whack. What's going on? Like, where's the ROI?

Benjamin Mena [00:12:15]:

The metrics, it's going back to whose original 19 eighties standards of if you do enough volume, something positive is gonna happen. But the problem is also with technology and automation and artificial intelligence, like you can target less, make it more personalized for a bigger impact, but I think there's some managers out there that are like, you have to hit these numbers. You have to hit these numbers. That's why I get the, hey, you're qualified to be a security guard at the MSA. And I'm like, that's it because I say full scope Poly somewhere in my LinkedIn profile.

Brian Fink [00:12:47]:

It's somewhere in your LinkedIn profile. Right?

Benjamin Mena [00:12:50]:

So I you know, it's just I am glad that you wrote this book because there is just You know, unlike the HR path where they have, like, Sherrym and all those updated things that you have, you know, laws that you have to keep track of, there's nothing else at BIO. Unless you pay for your own, to go to conferences, pay for your own, to go to, like, events like recfest or our source con or some of the TA stuff, there's no education out there.

Brian Fink [00:13:15]:

Well, you know, you talk about the you talk about the events, right, is that they're the great thing about and you talk about the community. The great thing about the community is the community leases the who leases the community to make sure that the content is up here and that you're actually climbing a mountain to get really great content as opposed to stepping over the limbo stick to become a recruit.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:35]:

Actually, well, here's a question for you. Just like out of your out of my curiosity, there's what? 500,000 recruiters in the United States?

Brian Fink [00:13:43]:

Yeah. According to linkedin.com.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:46]:

Okay. According to linkedin.com, another LinkedIn stat. How many of those recruiters? What's the percentage of recruiters that you think are actively out there chasing education and be working on to try to become bet better recruiters?

Brian Fink [00:13:57]:

I know that today that I've sold 37100 copy I mean, 37100 copies of the book. So I know that 37100 of 5000 of 500,000 are interested in being better technical recruiters. Right? That's a pretty upsetting number. It's a pretty upsetting number when you have an event like recfest, which is gonna probably have over a 1000 recruiters at this event. I say upsetting. A 1000 recruiters. That's a that's a huge amount of people. Benjamin, that's when a half a percentage of of what we just gave, right, that there are half a million recruiters that are are that there's less than 5% of them. Less than half a percentage of them that are excited about going to an event where they're gonna network and learn from some of the most brilliant minds, like, torn Ellis or Michael Goldberg or Steve Levy, that they're gonna have great conversations that they're gonna get to interact with them, that they're not going, that they're not putting up $200 to make it happen. That was not a commercial for wreckfest. That was just like that was just like, dude, I I don't get it either.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:02]:

I I I'll say this. I remember, like, my first real recruiting event. I went to a source con many years ago, and I was a contract recruiter. So, you know, Time not working as time not paid. Had to pay for I had to take time off, had paid for my own tickets, paid for my own flights, paid for my own hotels, but getting around the community myself and getting, like, learning some of the stuff that I've learned has had such a a great ROI on my career.

Brian Fink [00:15:29]:

Oh, it's a force multiplier. I mean, like you talk about source con. Source con, great event, very strategic 42. Another great event, like, I I kinda put those 2 as book ins. I know they're on the same, but, like, if you can go to them and you can invest the the time, the money, the work ethic, the connections that you're gonna make, you're gonna come away you're gonna come away with a big win.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:52]:

Awesome. Well, wanna shift gears a little bit. Yeah, I wanna talk about they I mean, we've been doing a great job talking about their recruiting community. We've been doing a great job talking about you know, up leveling yourself, learning and getting around the rest of the recruiting community. But 2023 has been A brutal year.

Brian Fink [00:16:10]:

Dude, brutal year, brutal year, and, you know, yeah, I've gotta

Benjamin Mena [00:16:16]:

I don't wanna say it's worse than 2020, but it's it's more unexpected than 2020.

Brian Fink [00:16:21]:

So I think that there are a lot of different things that are going on here. Is I think that people have some unrealistic expectations about what the market is supposed to bear for them. I had some I've had I have conversations with so on Friday afternoon from 3 until 6 PM. It used to be 3 to 5, but I had to open it up is I spent 15 to 30 minutes with recruiters talking about recruiting. It used to be, like, Brian's office hours. Like, I would show you what what what to do and how to do it, and we'd work on a search together. But now it's become more of a I'm I I can't find a job. There's nobody hiring. I used to work at this thing company, and nobody wants me. What's going on? And it is really weird. It is very upside out. I agree with that observation.

Benjamin Mena [00:17:12]:

So pause right there. Before we go, we're talking about the recruiting community. Every afternoon, every Friday afternoon, you open up your calendar for people.

Brian Fink [00:17:18]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Just reach out to me on linkedin. I'll shoot you over the Calendly link, and you can you can make it happen.

Benjamin Mena [00:17:24]:

1, I think that's incredible too. How has that impacted everything that you're doing in the recruiting space.

Brian Fink [00:17:31]:

So how's it impacted everything? So Friday nights are a little morose because there's some people that I talked to that that they need. Like, they need to talk to somebody and they also are a month away from running out of money. Right? Like so it's it's pretty deep. Right? Number 2, I find myself that I'm working on helping recruiters build their resumes. Shout out to any recruiters listening to this. Numbers. Use numbers on your resume. Right? Like, And talk about the value that you provided to the business. Don't talk about things and and generalizations like hired a lot of data science engineers, right, like say I, you know, I was one of 7 recruiters that were responsible for delivering this value to the business and cite what the dollar amount is. I'm learning that there are a lot of recruiters who aren't doing that. Number 2, I'm learning that there are a lot of recruiters, and I don't understand this, Benjamin, like, why corporate recruiters are afraid to go back to agency. Right? Like agency land, we all have horror store about agency land, but we also have really good stories about agency land. I wanna I I wanna shift the analogy for a second This guy named Jerry Seinfeld. He had a show about nothing. Yeah? Jerry Seinfeld? Seinfeld? Yeah. You not in your head. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So Jerry Seinfeld was one of the highest paid comedians of all time, and then he ended his show And what did he do? He went back to doing the same thing he's always done, not writing a show, but doing stand up. I wanna know why I talked to recruiters day at week in and week out who are afraid to go from being a corporate recruiter back to agency land. And and I I don't have an answer for that. Like, you know, I know that I played as a corporate recruiter today. I know that I could jump back into an agency role tomorrow I realized that in agency land, you've gotta play a 360 recruiter where you've got a client that you've gotta keep happy. Newsflash. In corporate recruiting, you cannot run from your client. If you run from your client, quit your job or you get fired. Okay? Like, you are you are on the horn with them. You are showing them how to close out requisition than work day. Like, you are you are doing that work. But besides the fact that, like, as a corporate recruiter that I have to work with that I have to work with immigration to get H1B visas taken care of and things of that nature, or that I have a much closer relationship with the comp team. I don't understand why people are afraid to go back to agency recruiting. I know it's feast or famine. You eat what you kill, but but running out of money at the end of a month versus taking a making a betting on yourself. I don't understand where that lack of confidence is. And I think that's the number one thing that people have kind of been kicked in the teeth about this year in 2023. Sorry to go on a sour sour note.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:32]:

No. I I think that's important just because, like, I've I mean, we've all seen the post of people like, hey. We're running out of money. Savings is gone. 401 k is being tapped. Like, I'm gonna be a homeless. And it's just it's it's heartbreaking. You you definitely, like, I typically don't have recruiting openings openings, so I normally there's nothing that much I could do outside of, like, giving advice. And I know they're flooded with advice, but You know, what are the, like, the this is gonna be a a multifaceted question just because this is interesting. I I remember getting laid off remember I try to open up some opportunities for myself. You know, started picking up clients. I feel like is it just me, but are a lot of these people that have impacted, are they only just applying for jobs? Are they not doing other things out there?

Brian Fink [00:21:19]:

They're not doing the work that recruiters are supposed to do, which is network with other network with people. Right? You know, as a recruiter, Benjamin, how many times have you told somebody reach out, like, hey, I can't help you with this role, but reach out to somebody who works at Adobe and ask them for an informational interview. You might have a friend that's there. It's like we've forgotten how to network. We've forgotten how to ask. What can I do to solve your problem today that you can help me solve my problem tomorrow? You know, we've we've become and this is gonna and I'm not bashing LinkedIn, but we've become so reliant on the network and the inmail that we just think sending it is gonna solve a problem. It it's not. Right? Like, we've gotta find a way to to ask people what is their problem and how can we solve it so that we can create that serendipitous networking opportunity. And that question you're asking, it doesn't isn't to another recruiter to a hiring manager. Notice that you just got $4,500,000 in VC funding. How are you gonna spend that? It's a shitty question to ask. A better question to ask is you just got $4,500,000 in plumbing. That's great. How are you gonna grow your peep? What challenges can you now overcome that you previously weren't able to? Right? Like, asking those types of questions and and really kinda just getting in there and and swinging, you know, that's that's it.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:47]:

I know, like, one of the crazy things that I did when I was looking for a job, I actually I saw I figured out who the who the recruiting manager was, recruiting director, saw some of the openings that they did. I went out and built out a, like, a, I think it was, like, 20 to 30, like, people a list on an Excel spreadsheet. A 20 to 30 people per job with their contact information and why I thought they would be a good fit for that opportunity and I actually sent that to the hiring manager where who I thought was a hiring manager and also the recruiting director. I was like, hey. You know, I saw that you guys have this opportunity. I knew you guys were interviewing. Love to chat with you about it. I hear some of the work that I've done.

Brian Fink [00:23:25]:

Yeah. But you've also got a doubt now here. I come back and I say you've got these career coaches that say don't do free work for a jog. Right? It's not free work. It's showing showing who you are and what it is that you can do and the generation that you can bridge. Right? Like, I I I don't know how else to say it. Like, I don't wanna seem like I'm disgruntled or that I'm upset with people that they're they're asking me for help. But, like, one example I I give, and and, you know, is, hey, Benjamin, have you been to y combinator.com? I have. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So ycombinator.com is a startup incubator, but they have a tab for jobs. And if you click on the jobs, like it used to be on LinkedIn, is it shows you the founder of the company's LinkedIn profile and the job that's there. Don't click on apply. Click on the job, and it'll show you the job and the hiring manager for the role. Why not reach out to them directly and say, hey. Notice that you're a Y Combinator funded organization. I love startups. I wanna build something you know, that could be a venue or a point for a lot of people who are looking for their next their next startup incubator or startup role to to build or to grow or to go from being that individual contributor to being that contributor who is the director of recruiting that makes those decisions and navigates that. Or if you're doing business development and you say, hey. You know, mister Mister 4,500,000 funded company, you may not have the budget for to hire somebody as a full time recruiter, but for but for 20 to 30% I can find you the person that you're looking for. How can we work together? How can I help you solve this problem so you don't burn through more of your capital?

Benjamin Mena [00:25:17]:

So wait. So one of the things you're recommending is, like, almost like being a fractional talent acquisition professional for these companies?

Brian Fink [00:25:23]:

You can absolutely that is that is a great yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, fractional talent acquisition, I look at it and say, There's some great people out there that spend 20 hours a week with one startup, 20 hours a week with with another startup. They make it into a 40 hour a week job. Sometimes they have it where they're paid, a retainer to be that recruiter and that they're paid on each to rolls. There are a lot of different ways to splice it, and there are a lot of different models to put together with fractional recruiting.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:52]:

And I just I've I've been I love that you've mentioned that because I that's some of the advice that I've given to some people are just aren't running into, or they're not running into those open opportunities. You hop online and you see an app, like, open role, and there's, like, 9000 applications in 24 hours. So, like, there's different ways to skin a cat or or get paid in recruiting, but I know, like, before we went online, you were also talking about, like, finding those, like, quiet opportunities or opportunities that haven't been posted yet. How do people do that?

Brian Fink [00:26:25]:

Okay. So I think that what we can do is that you can look at press releases Press releases contain contact information. With companies talking about that they're making, like, in Georgia, Hyundai has invested a lot of money in moving moving production for Kia and Hyundai to Georgia. There gonna be a lot of opportunities for corporate recruiting. There gonna be a lot of opportunities for agency recruiting. There gonna be a lot of opportunities for RPO recruiting. Why don't you set a Google alert for press releases about plant expansions and then go to the press release and reach out to the person listed in the press release and say, I'm looking for more information about about this Hyundai plant that's being built in in in Roswell, Georgia. I don't know where it's being built in Georgia. I I drove by it on the way to the beach. That's being built that's being built off the coast of Savannah. Can you provide me with some more information? Right? What kind of information are you looking for? Who are the contractors? Right? Like, Okay. So maybe you don't maybe you staff light and heavy industrial. Great. Now you've got a list of people that you can call that you know, they've got a contract, and they're gonna need people to build a factory. Alternatively, maybe they're looking for people to be HR BPs or to be or to be recruiters for the company. You've got the you've got an outlet there. There are a lot of different ways to skin this cat, and I think that press releases are something that people overlook.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:57]:

Let me pause right there. You're saying that you're saying as a recruiter, I need to be actively out there doing things and not just waiting for applications.

Brian Fink [00:28:07]:

No. I I've well, I mean, like, like, Ben, as and, like, you know, you've heard me talk about this before, I'm sure, is that I think that recruiters that great recruiters have 3 attributes that they are curious, they're empathetic, and they are tenacious. Sometimes we forget about being tenacious. We can't forget about being tenacious. Right? We could be curious. We're gonna ask lots of questions. We can watch YouTube clips. We can look at press releases. We can ask we can ask who's doing the hiring. Okay. Got that. Empathetic. We can be empathetic to our candidates and say, understand the circumstances that you're in today. What would be an ideal situation for you to go to next? You know, Lou Ather asked the question in his trainings. He says, How do you position an opportunity in front of the candidate and say if I was going to share with you something that was just a little bit better marginally better than where you are today. What would you wanna be doing? Okay. It's a it's a powerful question. And that's the empathy part. But we've forgotten damn tenacity. Okay? Agency Lam told you or taught you that time kills all deals. Time tools all deals in all recruiting. Okay? Like, you know, I've got people who are on offer today, and I'm like, when is that offer letter gonna come in? Because I I need to I I need you to be on board. I, you know, not that I have an onboarding class, but that I want this to to be successful for you. I want you to get everything that you need. I want things to be smooth and there to be a great transition. Right? It's forgotten about tenacity. Like, everybody's all obsessed with okay. I'm beaten up on in mails today. Right? Like, that's gonna be the title of this star. Brian thinks 8's in mails. Right? But, like, why have we forgotten about picking up the phone? Right? Like, you and I met over DM. Right? So, like, That's totally different. Right? Like, that's a different personal level. If you're afraid to pick up the phone, are you afraid to WhatsApp somebody? Why aren't you making phone calls and inquiring about the future that benefits you directly? I I I don't get it. I don't understand why people are afraid of

Benjamin Mena [00:30:16]:

the phone. So it's I I actually don't know. And, yes, I be on the phone, mostly making those, like, calls, everything going to voice mail, but, like, how do you not build a relationship? Through just an in mail or just through an email. It's, you know, or how I hate to say this. Like, how do you find out what is really driving a candidate to make a change

Brian Fink [00:30:42]:

Oh, absolutely. 1100. 100. You can't find it out over email. But what you can say is you can send them an email and say, look, Okay. So one of my favorite emails that I'd send to candidates is I say, look, I work for McAfee. I'm not interested in you doing a specific job. I'm interested in what you wanna do next. How can I help you find the vehicle that takes you there next? Question mark. I will very rarely mention the job or give 3 frigging bullet points about what the job is. Okay? Or where I where I say I'm working on a confidential search. I can't go into details. Please let me know. I then pick up the phone, call the person, and say, I'm working on a confidential search. I sent you an email about it. Please let me know when you have time to reconnect. That's it. If it sounds canned and rehearsed, it's because that's what I do. And That's what I got.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:38]:

And we gotta get back to that. I think that's also what's gonna be separating Good recruiters from the average recruiters too.

Brian Fink [00:31:45]:

Yeah. That and I also think literacy separates good recruiters from bad recruiters. Don't just be a keyword monkey. Look and actually understand the context that I am not a business analyst. Do not send me another message for being a business analyst.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:00]:

What does even say business analyst on your LinkedIn profile?

Brian Fink [00:32:03]:

It does not say business analyst. It has a bunch of words about AI, which, you know, is what I'm looking for right now.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:10]:

Well, before we jump over to the quick fire section, is there anything else that you would love to share with the listeners?

Brian Fink [00:32:15]:

I think I came off a little negative in this connotation. I'm usually very optimistic guy, I do think things are going to get better as we move forward. However, you gotta remember It's up to you to make them better. Right? It's not you can't rely on on the market. You have to make your own market. You have to make your own decision. That's what I got for you.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:37]:

And and for the listeners, Brian is an incredibly optimistic person. But, like, we're also talking about the realities of, like, of the situation, the environment based on the experiences that we've had where we've been impacted before too.

Brian Fink [00:32:53]:

Yeah. I mean, remember, you know, earlier this year or I should say late 2022, I was part of the Twitter onslaught the night of, the night of a 1000 dead birds. And, you know, I recovered from it because I went out there and I spoke to people and said, hey. Do you have anything? Give me a chance. I'll I'll take contract. I'll take this. I'll take that. I was pretty close to actually hanging up my own shingle and somebody two people called and said, we want you, and then I had to make a decision between them. So, yeah, go out there and be your own advocate. Awesome.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:27]:

And before we move on, I think a lot of things that and, Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I think a lot of recruiters don't understand the value that they personally bring to the table and to the company?

Brian Fink [00:33:40]:

I 100, you have to understand You have to understand that. You have to understand the bottom line of the organization. I think a lot of recruiters don't know how a company makes money. If you can show what value you bring to help a company make more money, that's powerful. It's really, really powerful. Awesome. Don't be a cost center. Be a be a don't be a cost center. Be a be a revenue generator. Right? Before I think we the recruiting belongs under the CRO. So that's

Benjamin Mena [00:34:08]:

Hi. Somebody else gets that. I will say, recruiting doesn't belong in a new HR. So clarify questions. What advice would you give to a brand new recruiter that's just getting started in the industry in 2023?

Brian Fink [00:34:21]:

Do one more. My dad always told me that that you should always make one extra phone call. You should send one extra email that you should send one extra postcard. Yes. I send postcards to candidates. They say, I wish you were ear, and it has a logo of the company that I'm working for at the time. Always send 1 more. If you think if 50 was good, Duke 51.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:43]:

Perfect advice. And one, postcards are amazing. There's technology that can, like, write it for you with a pen or robot with a

Brian Fink [00:34:50]:

pen. Yep. Absolutely.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:52]:

And, 2, is your dad Ed my lot?

Brian Fink [00:34:54]:

Is is my dad who?

Benjamin Mena [00:34:56]:

Ed Millett, you know, who wrote

Brian Fink [00:34:58]:

the book, like, one more. Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. My dad my dad is Steve. Yeah. So, you know, I like that. I like that. Do one more. I got it. Okay. Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:07]:

What advice would you give to a recruiter that's been in the industry for 5 to 20 years that wants to continue having success?

Brian Fink [00:35:17]:

Go back and look at what you did to be successful and think about how you can expand on that. Right? Like, you know, if it was if it if it is sending a 100 emails, Think about how you can send 80 emails to get to get better results. Right? Look at those KPIs track your progress, track your success, make a daily journal. I mean, I've got I've got mine here. I put I put a journal together every day of every activity that I go through, and then I go back at the end of the day and I say, Okay. This is what I did. This is what worked. This is what did not work. This is what I'm gonna try to duplicate tomorrow.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:00]:

Now that is phenomenal advice. How many re what percentage of recruiters do you think track their own stuff and metrics? Oh, man.

Brian Fink [00:36:11]:

You know, you know, there are, like, a thousand people coming to breakfast? I don't I don't know. I don't have the answer to that.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:18]:

Oh, just just kinda curiosity. It's, you know, you can only move what you track.

Brian Fink [00:36:23]:

Right. Well, you know, here's the thing is that no matter how technologically advanced applicant tracking systems become. I still find that everybody is using Excel spreadsheets to track everything. You know, you can quantify things in an Excel spreadsheet. You can quantify the notes that you that you put, the time that you spend on the phone call, on the phone, how many kits you put to the process. Excel spreadsheets are powerful. You can take a LinkedIn learning course. They're they're There's the silver lining for LinkedIn. A new sponsor is, you've got the you've got the opportunity for to to really dig into your numbers and And I don't play golf, but I play recruiting, and I look at it as an infinite game. So go there. Awesome.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:05]:

Has there been a book that's had a huge impact on your career?

Brian Fink [00:37:08]:

Yes. The obstacle is the way by Ryan Holiday. Yeah. I I got a hold of it in 2014. I thought about quitting recruiting, and it really taught me and showed me that I should be going after those roles that are are that are C suite driven opportunities because that was the only thing I hadn't touched. I don't know why I was afraid of it, but it really taught me to break through and to lean into that discomfort.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:30]:

Awesome. What is your thoughts about the future of artificial intelligence and recruiting?

Brian Fink [00:37:37]:

Man, I I love this idea. You know, I'm a big Star Wars junkie. So I think about I think about the Jedi Fallen Order video game where the little robot sits on your Jedi's shoulder and and with Calkinesis. So that robot helps you do things like jump further than you were supposed to jump or, eliminate things that you can't see. That's what I think AI is gonna do. It's going to illuminate things that we can't see. It's gonna help us with pattern recognition, and it's gonna take us from good to great. It's gonna I'm I'm very excited about it. Like, I'm excited that candidates are gonna use it to thwart us to try to get past decision makers, right, and it's just gonna, like, create this arms race. I'm very excited about that.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:19]:

Do you have a favorite rec tech tool that you're enjoying at the moment?

Brian Fink [00:38:24]:

For my technical recruiters out there, I love Octo HR. It's free. You can download it and put it in Chrome. And what it does is when you're on a GitHub profile, and we'll go through and find the email address and tell you what the person is good at. Benjamin, you know my thing. Free is for me. It's my favorite four letter word that begins with an f. Get your hand in mind out of the gutter. Secondary or distinct, but the, but the but the reality is I love that tool, and I also, for you're not gonna pick up the book, which I want you to pick up the book, there's a tool that's called glossary attack that can run on LinkedIn profiles, resumes, and the light, and it'll tell you what words mean in context, proven predominantly technical terms. So those are two jewels that I really like. Phenomenal. What is what

Benjamin Mena [00:39:15]:

do you think has been a big impact on your own personal success?

Brian Fink [00:39:21]:

I think I've been surrounded at, like, geographically speaking, I couldn't have asked for a better city to be in. Like, I have tremendous mentors I have people like Barbara Marks that index me on empathy for candidates. I have Shali who is literally right down the road who indexes me on technology and tools. I have Steve Rath who has been an excellent mentor. I have all these people that live within 15 minutes of me. I have Jason Singer who perpetually it gets me to best better questions about candidates. So I think my superpower is the community, like, where I'm just geographically located, and how they elevated me to, how they elevated me to an to another level.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:59]:

And this is actually my favorite question. If you can go back to the very beginning of your career, the ups, the downs, everything that you've learned, what advice did you give yourself?

Brian Fink [00:40:10]:

To not You know, that that 2nd year that I was a recruiter don't do that 2nd year. Is the 2nd year all I was focused on was billing. I was not focused on my clients. I was not focused on my candidate and making sure that they were at the center of everything that I did. And I would sit I would give myself the advice. Don't look at the paycheck. The paycheck is going to happen. Put your candidates and your clients at the center of everything that you do, make them your first customer, and everything will turn out for the best. Because the 2nd year, all I wanted to do was break $200,000. That was all that I wanted. Right? And, That recipe for success, just looking at that number, was not getting me where I needed to go.

Benjamin Mena [00:40:59]:

It is kind of funny. In this career at the second, like, you start focusing on the money and the number. It's like candidates and clients just feel that through

Brian Fink [00:41:07]:

the phone. They they do. They they do. And the thing is is, like, if you wanna be successful at this business, You know, I said 3 things. Curiosity. You gotta find out what motivates your candidate. You gotta find out what motivates your client. You gotta find out what motivates your customer. Empathy. You've gotta feel that for them and make sure that you are a team player that's bringing them both the company up and the candidate up. Internacity You can't give up. You gotta give one more. That that's it.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:38]:

Awesome. Well, Brian, this has been a phenomenal podcast. Before I let you go, Is there anything else you'd love to share with the listeners?

Brian Fink [00:41:45]:

You know what, man? Hell yeah. Just just give it your all. Right? Like, go out there. If if this is your first time turning into 1 of Benjamin's podcast, you need to go back and you need to listen to what Ernie has to say You need to go back and listen to DSP. You need to be part of DSP's group on LinkedIn. Don't spam it. Don't spam it. Dammit. Yeah. But, like, gift to the community and the community will give back to you. That's what I've got.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:10]:

Well, Brian, I'm excited that I got to host you. You've been an incredible influence on the entire community. And it's been awesome to share your story. And for the listeners, I'll have a link to Ryan's book in the show notes. So, all you have to do is hop on look down the show notes so you'd be able to pick up a copy of Brian's book. So for the listeners, until next time, guys, let's keep crushing it.

Intro [00:42:32]:

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