Upgrading the Candidate Experience: A Deep Dive with Kalifa Oliver

Intro [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the elite recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:18]:

I'm excited about this episode of the elite recruiter podcast. I have my special guest, Aleitha Oliver from Cliff Consulting. who's gonna talk to us about how the candidate experience has changed. Now I know Like, I've been in the game for a while. I actually feel like it's too which many years at this point in time. But, like, the market and the Kenny experience when I first started recruiting versus the world of, like, TikTok and LinkedIn and all sorts of social media platforms, it is completely changed. So Khalifa is here to talk about this. And real quick, before we get started, Khalifa has such an incredible background. She has worked at multiple Fortune 100 companies, talking about candid experiences, working as a candid experience person, digging into the data that goes into the talent acquisition teams. So she's got a world of knowledge and is now an international consultant and executive coach because of all the stuff that she's done before. So, Khalitha, welcome to the podcast.

Kalifa Oliver [00:01:18]:

Happy to be here.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:18]:

Thank you for inviting me. So how did you even get started in? Like, the recruit wonderful world of recruiting and candidate data and all that stuff.

Kalifa Oliver [00:01:28]:

So I think for me, my background is in industrial organizational psychology and people analytics. And so for me, I've always looked at the employee experience across your life cycle, which, of course, starts from your minutes. Somebody lands in your application pool. in your applicant pool. And so for me, it's important to look at the entire employee experience from that moment. And one of the things I tell everybody is that moment when they land in the applicant pool is really, really important, how you treat down the experience they have because they're covered by law. immediately if they can sue you if they don't get the job. Right? And some people win. So really recognize in that part of the experience, And a lot of times, what people don't think about is you always remember your candidate experience, and it always sets the tone for what happens next if you becomes a if you become a hire, Also, if you become somebody who now has to work with that company, then you remember that experience you have. So that that candidate experience is a big part of an employer's brand proposition, and I think we don't put enough emphasis on that.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:32]:

It's definitely, you know, it's it's You know, being a recruiter, it's tough keeping up with everything that you're doing, all the managers, you know, all the meetings, all the open the positions that need to get filled, the positions that have hit that 30 day, 60 day mark need more time. And then on top of that, making sure every candidate has an amazing experience, even the ones that actually don't get the job.

Kalifa Oliver [00:02:53]:

Right. Right. Absolutely. Anything the other thing is some of the metric that I've been traditionally used to measure, recruit the success. and I'll put this in the nicest way. I know how? Trutch. That's Trutch. Alright. So, like, one of the biggest ones that a lot of companies love to use, and I'm I'm happy there is a movement away from it. is time to fill. There are so many things that can impact somebody's ability to fill a job, including things like their holidays in between. There's a a freeze and and hiring budget. The hiring manager gets sick, and now your your numbers are looking terrible. And what I have seen that do is lead recruiters to do bad things, right, or I see, like, recs open and close. And sometimes it's not that they're bad people. They're they'd have to do these people have to survive. This is their job. This is these are the metrics we're using, and this is across any sort of -- role and time of somebody's career, if you keep giving them metrics that are stupid and telling them this is a measure of success. then you're actually promoting bad behaviors because you're putting people with their livelihood in a bad spot. And a lot of people are just trying to survive. They're trying to do what they think is best because you're using these stupid numbers and telling them they're reeling in.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:17]:

I think one of the the funniest things is, like, when I went internal for being an agency recruiter to going internal, one of the metrics that they were constantly picking me on was time to fill. And in the, you know, I've worked in the the cleared space, so people You know, clearance crossovers take so much time. So, technically, it that it could be like 6 months. I could have the person in a week, but it could take 6 months before the person starts. And I would get, like, hammered and compare it against, like, these a recruiter's doing, like, commercial work. Like, well, why are you failing? And I'm like, I I'm not failing. I'm doing my job. Like, what do you want me to do? Quit and go somewhere else? Exactly.

Kalifa Oliver [00:04:53]:

Right? And sometimes when you are so focused on time to fill, you don't get the best candidate. You don't get the best person because you go with whoever will say yes first. You go with whoever has the time to schedule, interviews first. Right? You don't get any best pool because you are busy rushing, playing with numbers. And I think that is a lesson for the entire candidate and the entire employee experience, right, we have to get away from just seeing people as numbers. And I think while I work with data, I believe, and this is this is the The, the box I'll stand on, my soapbox that I'll stand on, people need to be seen as people and treat it as people. And every data point, I work with data. I have a responsibility when I do people out on the to recognize that every data point is a human being. And we've got to move away from this element of these are just numbers. It doesn't work that way. There's too much complexity in how we create our processes and how we create our programs. to go to these are just numbers because we're seeing the repercussions of making those type of decisions right now. Right? we're seeing people will move away. We're seeing that people are really just fed up with the entire process. of selection, the entire process of just being in corporate America right now. We're seeing the pushback on return to work. We're seeing people paying attention to compensation numbers and equity and even D. Yeah. We look at those things, and it it starts again on a candidate experience because we're we're starting them off and saying these are just numbers. And then we make recruiters feel like numbers. And so what they're doing, they're treating the candidate. like numbered. We gotta get away from that because regardless of what technology comes, we're still humans. and there is a way to humanize all of our processes, and we're really stuck at it. We need to do better. Okay? We need to do better than that.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:58]:

And when when you talk about, like, bringing the human back into the, like, this whole process, you know, much of the time it starts at the top of the leadership. and not every single leader I have seen is always open to new ideas. You know, they're under the pressure of something else. So if you're a recruiter, you know, frontline recruiter actively doing the work, you want to really bring the people experience back into the process. yourself and make the change where you're at. As a and we'll we'll separate this on agency and internal. As an internal recruiter, what are some of the things that you could do to humanize this experience again.

Kalifa Oliver [00:07:33]:

I think one of the things that recruit us on entitlement position as a function, they're not involved enough. And, again, this is often no fault of their own. It's because organizations are too siloed. The technology that's being used. Like, have you seen ATS systems? They're terrible. Most ATS systems are awful. Like, as an analyst, when I pulled data out of it, I wanna scream at how noisy these systems are. most are not implemented well. Right? So your solar bill of goods from a vendor that this is a really good ATS system, but that's at an optimized state. not at a state that has been implemented in. And the problem too is often talent acquisition is not at a table. when we are trying to decide what systems need to be implemented to begin with. Right? So that's crazy to me. We're not atty table enough. I think the other thing is we've really need to start, and I've had these conversations with leaders, and I'm starting to have more of these conversations recognizing that the candidate experience and the employee experience, that is tied to your bottom line. It is it is part of your employer brand. It is a part of your employer value proposition. Right? And younger generations are not playing with us. No. Yeah. Good generations are not playing with us. They wanna they don't wanna just work for the money, any and they don't just wanna work for the name any. That, that's going away. Right? Because I think how people are starting to value work as a potadel lives and experiences as a whole. It's evolving, and we're seeing the fight between generations. And I'm one of those people who A lot of generational differences are false. If you look through generations, you see the safe thing. My generation was better than your generation. Your generation is a lazy blah blah blah. We see the same thing. There is a clear distinction between Millennials and Gen Z and what has happened before, and it's the burgeoning of technology and information that they have and access that they have. interaction we have with other people, and it's going into, well, why would I wanna work for you? I don't understand why I wanna work for you. I would rather have a balance in my life that I could control than working

Intro [00:09:42]:

27

Kalifa Oliver [00:09:42]:

hours a day for you. Right? And I didn't make a mistake when I said to these companies act like they want that you are my whole life. And I think we've gotta move over here from now.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:55]:

I think that's kinda funny with, you know, I was slow to jumping on the TikTok bandwagon, but as soon as I started to look, I actually hopping on TikTok. I started seeing, like, people talking about their jobs, talking about their income, talking about the stuff. And I I remember, like, when I was out of college and LinkedIn only had like 2,000,000 people on it. Like, I didn't know what the rest of the world looks like. I didn't know what, you know, other recruiting firms were. I you know, I'd be in the office at, like, 7 AM. I'm gonna leave it, like, 9 or 10 PM.

Kalifa Oliver [00:10:22]:

Right.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:22]:

And I just thought that was everybody else.

Kalifa Oliver [00:10:25]:

Right? That's not Listen. I confession. I also absolutely refuse to use TikTok for a long time. Right? As I've started to do more brand work with my business, like, my business launch was like, you gotta get on it. I'm like, no. Please don't make me get on it. But I finally did get and and it'd be getting you plenty of prills, right, because I'm like, I am again. They call me a geriatric millennial, which I hate to write. So I've read that tail end. So I was there at the beginning of the the technology shifts, the computers that came in, and then I'm I'm listening to the candidness. on a TikTok. That is so different from what you see on LinkedIn. Right? LinkedIn, everybody's polished. Everybody knows everything. Everybody's an ex rooted everything. You know, people move from being loyal to political analysts all in, like, the space of a week. Right? Like, do you go on TikTok and there's this genuineness? And then you start having conversations with younger generations just as a whole, and is this This authenticity, this authenticity, and you hate on being very direct about all work. And I couldn't write proof because it's so amortized everything I've been taught. Right? It's anti the polish. It's anti. But can I find myself, Colin? Yes. We need to challenge the system. HR, for example, is a dinosaur. COVID probably moved HR From the 19 thirties to, like, the 19 eighties, we're still not quite in

Intro [00:11:55]:

2020

Kalifa Oliver [00:11:56]:

anything with HR. Right? but it pushed us there. And now we're seeing the push back to that. But but I think what companies are realizing right now is this group, this new work forced this new pool of people who are now making up the majority of your workforce, the people who are gonna do your day to day They're not the same people that you could have told work all day. And this is normal. These people are like, uh-uh, Why? And if you force me to do this, I'm going to pull out my camera, and I'm going on social media. And I'm gonna ask everybody if this is normal. And I will embarrass you. You know what I mean? And I think it's a jolt to the system of of people.

Intro [00:12:42]:

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Kalifa Oliver [00:12:42]:

didn't have that technology. Who didn't have that access? And it seems bold, and it seems crazy. But sometimes you need that type of jolting a system that makes you go It's called accountability, which I don't think we've had in our system from from from candidates for a long time. I don't know, like, on TikTok, one of the things I've been looking at lately is the candidate experience people have and oh my goodness. And I've started to see it come into LinkedIn where people are starting to talk about how tough the experience at the Kennedy is, and I haven't been in any market. And I'm like, well, What is this? And I don't blame your crutches. You got rent a stolen, my recruiters. Hey. You're asking one recruit to still like 19 positions. Of course, they're not getting back to the candidates. They don't have time. They can't keep their head up of water. They have a horrible ATS system to work with. Right? And they're working with this, metaphorical gun to their back because we just get rid of Talent acquisition full on a win right now. So I'm it gets called accountability, and I'm loving every moment up here. You know? Make the mess. Be comfortable. Hit

Benjamin Mena [00:13:54]:

That really has been, like, the the thing, like, in 2023, like, after the last 2 years, like, TA, internal town out because the auction teams are just growing it crazy. And now it's just like, you you see the stories nonstop of recruiters are, you know, few hundred applications in or, you know, ones that have even got jobs, you know, the jobs just magically disappeared.

Kalifa Oliver [00:14:15]:

Justice to pay, it's It's insane. And, like, I even look at the wave of how recruitment is working right now. Right? That's very different from anything I've ever seen before. where they'll need their jobs. And it looks like things are getting better. And then, like, Vanessa has layoffs or Amazon has layoffs, and then you just see this dip. And it's like these company that's just taking queues from each other. And then you see a next wave of layoffs, and it's usually any talent side. and it's a message that keeps being sent. Right? You start getting rid of the people who take heavier candies. You don't understand what you say. Right? You are saying that these people, these doulas, these people who bring people into your organization, the first human these people interact with online imported to you. you're telling me already that there is nothing about people that's really important to you. Right? You're telling the people who will come into your organization, figure it out. That sets the tone for the entire experience somebody is probably gonna have. And I tell people, like, I can tell you that my best recruiter. Love her still. The worst organizationer. Terrible organizationer, but I would They'll work with help to get a job. Best experience. And I will tell you because my experience was so good, I think I I cooped a lot better. with the absolute BS that that organization was because I told myself, there is no way in the absence of untabulous person, you know, working with this company and bringing in people and the such a fun, tough recruits in the process. There must be more to this. They must be trying to do that. Right? And then, like, one of my worse experience. This was actually one of the best companies, but because I don't think I had any best -- experience in that company because you always constantly wait until finish shooting jokes. You have not recovered from help. Terrible. the candidate experience was. You keep waiting to see, like, there has gotta be that it can't be that bad from the beginning. Right? That's, like, my trauma began there. And, like, now, I'm waiting every minute to see what happens next. And then I just I, well, you should've known. You should've known kind of thing. So I'm like, the candidate experience sticks with people. And it's all important, but we just We treat it like it's just another another thing to do, which is unfortunate.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:45]:

I almost feel like a lot of companies need, like, a person just to work on the candidate experience, but, for that one recruiter that was amazing at the company that just sucked, What did that recruiter do for you that made the difference?

Kalifa Oliver [00:17:02]:

She treats him like a him Like, I felt so special. But, like, one of the things that she had done sometimes is I didn't there was nothing that was needed or due. but you will check-in and said, I haven't talked to you in a while. Is everything okay? Is everything you need from me? And it was never necessarily about us talking about the job or talking about process. It was her checking in on me and seeing if everything was okay or and, you know, she's like, I'm about to sign off I'm just checking to see if anything is going on. And she kept me updated on the process. Right? So even during that process, I'm like, would I get this job or not? I feel Like, I understand what's happening with the process. Right? And you don't realize in that process how good it makes you feel. You know? Like, there are recruiters who will call me and I go, but she'd call me felt like I was talking to Frano, we'd shoot the breeze about all these other different things before we even got to. I'd we'd be at the end of the conversation. She's like, oh, oh, by the way, anyway, you're supposed to hear from from the manager like in in a week in a week or so. And I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, that is the reason she called. But at the end of the day, we were just we were just talking about fun stuff. You know? And and in that moment, it it felt like I feel seen. And I think the majority of people just want to feel theme. Right? The the process of job searching is not good. Right? It's not People don't like changing jobs. It is a weird thing that people say people don't like changing it. People love to change it. They don't want people don't wanna really like job hopping. People like stability. The human condition really likes stability, and the job search process is an exercise in the vulnerability. that I don't think people realize. And that's one of the things that is really unique to this workforce in this market right now. We've had a massive ton of people who've been made off. A massive group of people who've just been traumatized they worked for companies they thought they lacked. That did not love. That told them they were a family. and then send her an email to let them know. The day will lead her. Who broke promises to them, and these are new candidates who were cruited, love doll, for a period of time, new grads who came out of school, only to be told a day a week before they were going to relocate and start their lives with this company saying we don't have a job for you anymore. We have to rescind this offer. That is so traumatized and that I don't think people recognize it. That now I have got to go into the process. My whole life depends on that this is part of my identity. And I've got to constantly tell this recruiter. Why? You should hire me. Why? I don't have that job. Think of any trauma that you may have experienced in, like, Somebody keeps telling you to explain and justify why why they should give you a chance. Right? That is a trauma constantly traumatized and I've been through it. Like, a little twice in a year. And you're like, I You start thinking, is it me? Am I the person? Right? Is it is it me that I what did I do wrong? One of the I remember one of the best pieces of advice that I got. I remember the first time I got laid off is my ex manager had said to me, your mind is going to pay tricks on you for a few days or about a week. Don't don't lean into it. Your mind is from and you don't think my mind is not going to play tricks on me. I know this is not me. I know it was a financial decision. but then I woke up the day after being laid off, and I tell everybody, for me, thing the day after was the hardest day, not the actual day of late of the day after. When I woke up and for the first time in my adult life, I was not working. I did not have a job. And, like, I never experienced that. And my mind did stop. Plinjix on me. I thought it's a replay every single thing in my head. What did I do? What did I do wrong? Like, did I did I speak up when I shouldn't have? Was I too authentic? Like, was I a stereotype? Like, did I Like, you start thinking that, and you you have to have these messages that push back. So you imagine me going into the job search thinking that So now I'm talking to recruiters, and I am now shrinking that same as myself because I'm like, my livelihood defense on us. and I must've done something wrong. And here's this person's scene. So why should we hire you? Why why is there this gap in your resume? I remember there was this one time I got so tired of the question. They said, I didn't want a gap on my resume. I was given a gap on my resume. You know what I mean? Like, the recruiters have to take a slightly none of the slightly, a very different approach recognizing that gaps don't mean the same things anymore. Remote work don't mean the same things anymore. Like, people are not taking intentional career breaks because people are burnt out. people are exhausted. People have been traumatized. This is, like, massive brewery cups, right, that people are seeing. I think recruiters also need to discourage people from going on LinkedIn and put an x x this company ex that company. I know it's a beacon, but it's it's traumatized it, and I don't really see it. Right? Like, it's it's a full it's like you broke up with your with your husband or your wife or your boyfriend. I'm like, Chris's ex up there. Like, you know, on my purse, I feel like I'm on a bed to put on my Chris's ex up there. Wait. Right? Like, are we switching to Christmas? Is that what we're doing? So it's it's a new day. It's a new day, and I think recruiters have a new responsibility. You know?

Benjamin Mena [00:23:19]:

Well, it's, I mean, for many of those, especially the talent acquisition space that were impacted, like, you know, Your identity is one attached to what you do for a loan. Your identity also becomes, like, the organization that you spend the most time with. So it's hard to quickly shed that identity to try to work on building out a new identity.

Kalifa Oliver [00:23:38]:

Exactly. And it's so so tough. And I think And recruiters themselves, though, very I wanna I wanna make this clear. Recruiters are super traumatizing out too. Right? Cause a lot of recruiters who are left any organization or who have decided to go out on their own and do external recruiting, they are also traumatized from having to deal with what happened. They had to call Caddy since they were sending you an offer. Not the people they told me making the decisions. Right? They're the grounds crew. They're the ones who have to go in and say, I'm sorry. Like, we don't have a job for you. I'm sorry. This froze I'm sorry. You didn't wanna get an all the backlash because you've ghosted folks. Right? When you didn't wanna ghost anybody, you have no information. And and the other thing I thought, I I saw this happen. The other day, somebody got call our records got called out for ghost and Kennedy. How many was get worked on LinkedIn? until it got tagged until that recruiter had to come in and said, I was laid off. I didn't wanna ghost you. I was laid off. I don't have a job anymore. Right? And I'm like, could you even could you imagine finding out that you would be a dog piled on? for trying to do your job when you've lost your stuff.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:01]:

Yeah. Hey. I always stay away from the, the ghosting conversations on my end. I'm, know every recruiter, unfortunately, has joked to somebody. And every now and then, I see a recruiter that, like, in the years ago, ghosted me talking about how they never ghosted cheap on. I'm like,

Kalifa Oliver [00:25:16]:

Right. I'm

Benjamin Mena [00:25:18]:

like, I personally won't go out there and say that because I'm not a perfect person, but,

Kalifa Oliver [00:25:23]:

Right.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:24]:

I I will say I kinda, you know, I think that's one thing that we definitely don't talk about in the recruiting space and they even the HR space is, like, Chawm of actually resending somebody's offer. I remember, like, probably a good decade ago now. I gotta, you know, gave an offer to a candidate. It was supposed to be a senior HR leadership position. I went on vacation. The, like, whatever high up person on on the HR scale called me up on Christmas Eve while I was calling on vacation and said that you need to pull the person to offer and tell them that it that it's being rescinded. And I was like, why? And, like, well, it's just budget. And I'm like, can I wait till, like, after Christmas? And she's direct. No. Like, if you don't do this, is it it's your job of mine. I was like, well, you know, on vacation, make the call. You know, she's crying. I'm crying and, you know, fast forward a week and a half, you know, back in the office. Right? Oh, can you give her a call? we found the money for the budget. We wanna bring her back. And I'm like, could we have just, like, at the literally we figured out the budget before we even started this process? Holy crap.

Kalifa Oliver [00:26:31]:

And we

Intro [00:26:31]:

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Kalifa Oliver [00:26:31]:

Oh, yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:32]:

She, like, she ripped me a new one. She cussed me out. Like, about she was just like, you know, you completely ruined my Christmas. I'm like, I I know I'm the one that made the call. I'd I'm not the one that made the decision.

Kalifa Oliver [00:26:43]:

Exactly. Exactly. And it it's it's a We've been silent acquisition. It's truly a shooty messenger. Process. You know, I mean, you know, I think, like, in any of the, you know, any other career, any other group of professionals, they're good recruiters. They're bad recruiters. Right? They're near recruiters. They're older compute recruiters. They're I still roll my eyes every time I hear a super experience or courtesy. Oh, I go through a 100 resumes, and I know court for you. Who's going to be great for the job? No. You don't. No. You don't. Right? You don't because people are evolving. Skills evolving. So do you think the the information that you learn that that you thought made somebody really good for a job may have changed. Right? There are new skills. There are new people. There are people you've never you're only judging based on what you know. Right? So you have this whole range restriction of people you do not know who could have been successful that now you you've created a whole new bias in your head, and I rolled my And then it is really good recruiters who are trying to fight against those recruiters. Most fights on LinkedIn is usually where I get my popcorn and just go. It's going back and forth. Wonderful. Right? It's just, I think, talent as a whole is just in it's a form of crisis. There's a little bit of an identity crisis right now as to what talent is because I think we spend so much time, incorporate functions being so financially driven and making finance centered design to everything that it no longer makes sense because we have overarchitectured everything. That's not how people work. You cannot overarchitect your systems for people. You have to have some level of flexibility. Right? So in the example you gave honestly waiting to see if there was a budget that would be proved at the end of the year would have been you. Right? Thank to do. Right? But there's also no accountability because this person could have put in a notice. This person could have taking themselves out to a fancy dinner as they should to celebrate something new. Right? And this person has to now decide whether they want to come into this company that did that to them. What is to say that you're not gonna do the things that The minute something goes wrong, and we're seeing that happening now. Right? The minute something goes wrong with the companies. Fields getting slashed. Right? Recruiters are gone. Right? Things are looking good. Oh, let's grow the recruiting function to over a

Intro [00:29:25]:

100.

Kalifa Oliver [00:29:26]:

And then There's no accountability about how to do this better. And we can't we have so much that which drives me crazy? We have so much data. Right. Just didn't they? Just chilling. Just so you know, just waiting for somebody to come swim in it. You know, I've gone into organizations to consult, and I'm like, data you have to we have all this data, but we haven't done anything with it. And then I mean, they have all this data. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, My nerd alert, I am on fire. Like, all of these dates now a lot of dates need cleaning. So hire people to clean your data. Right? Hon hire people like me who will love to backstroke in that data. Right? and they don't do that. And it's nuts to me because the same I see the same leaders. Go on podcast. Go on TV. Go and tell all me to say, I love data driven decisions. How? How are you making data driven decisions? A lot of these layoffs that happen right now. A lot of these offers that were rescinded. I coulda told you 4 years ago, that trying to grow headcount. and looking at total revenue and not looking at profit was going to lead to something like this. Over hiring means that you are going to have to reduce headcount. Leo shouldn't be a strategy. Leo should be a last resort. Right? You did some bad forecasting, and here we are. It's crazy to me.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:55]:

I think the point in time where I started realizing something was wrong, I heard that, like, Peloton was bringing, and this is Peloton, like, the stationary bike company was bringing on entire classes of recruiters. At the same time, onboarding mall at the same time. I mean, like, I hate to say this. I'm like, what are they all hiring up for? And it's just like, you know, kinda goes into your thing. Like, these people have changed their entire lives for an opportunity that, you know, it made these companies, if they just were smart, planned better and not it may actually made data driven decisions and not emotional. Like, well, let's just staff up

Intro [00:31:35]:

40%.

Kalifa Oliver [00:31:36]:

Why? You know, Right. Greek it. Slow girls is fine. Right? And it because there's there's too much emphasis on quarter to quarter wins. Right? And and and here we are. Right? You do companies still making decisions on COVID. Oh, we've got more sales than COVID. Yeah. Everybody was home. your forecaster should have factored in what would happen. What happened the years prior? And how would that re you know what I mean? Simple statistics. Things regress to the mean. Simple to the we ain't gotta be fancy here. We don't wanna go to AI. We don't wanna go to nothing out. Simple statistics. Things regress to be mean. The more data you have, the more likely things are to regress to what they mean. So if you're making a decision in a point in time where things are an accept everything is in a case of exception, then your forecaster needs to be laid off. Not the other people. Your forecaster is wrong. Oh, wait. Oh, they still have bad job. Right? And and, like, it it it's nuts to me. And so we've created this entire candidate pool full of Fair. Full of fair. We've we've we've broken our selection systems. One of my new pieces everybody's so guilty to network more because you see a lot of that, you know, where people are like, I'm looking for a job. I've been looking for a year. It's tough. And they're like, well, you really need to network more. Stop it. Networking is one thing, but stop telling people to keep networking because you don't wanna fake your broken selection system. You don't want to decide your budget and keep the budget. and make sure the budget is there. We can keep talking about ghosts. Stop working with ghost money. Where's the budget? Does the budget actually exist? can you afford this role? Should we be recruiting for this role? Right? You're essentially putting out these ghost positions just see what pool looks like. That is not cool, and it's not okay. You cannot keep treating people like that, and you're gonna see the pushback, and we're seeing The pushback. It creates in a bunch of noise in the candidate system. Right? And it's it's not cool.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:46]:

I gotta I gotta another question before we jump over to the the next part of the podcast. So has, like, processes like indeed quick apply? hurt the candidate experience. We ask it's made things easier, but I'm seeing a lot of, you know, at least on LinkedIn, people talking about jobs that have, like, 8000 applications in one day.

Kalifa Oliver [00:34:03]:

Oh, yes. They have. They've heard the system in two ways. 1, they're often not the real way the recruiting is happening. Right? The it's just a way of collecting data. A lot of, recruiters don't check nor do they have time to look through 8000. Right? you have enough people learning how to beat these systems, which is why I'm not that worried about AI. I'm sorry. I'm not that worried. The technology is going to be the Beola Netlo. Because people still need to be discerning about what it is that you look like. Right? Efficiency doesn't always mean progress. Right? Efficiencies mean that now we have figured out a new ballot in order to get things done better. Right? So that's the 1st week. The second way is gaps. There are budge and then employment and recruiting. Gams. There's scams on LinkedIn. Right? So much scams and indeed right now. I mean, people are really leaning into people's vulnerability. Right? and a desperation to find a job. I mean, people who probably believe themselves to be smart and descending and probably, on a desperate circumstance answers in an inflated economy. Trying to pay bills. Here comes this person trying to collect your data. Oh, we have a job for you. When do you We're gonna send you your laptop and stuff. We're gonna send you a check. Go ahead and deposit it. Go ahead and and send this money You're not thinking a bunch of a lot of these people are young. They're not thinking they're desperate. Counties everywhere. Just wasting folks' time. easy apply. Like, how did you come in time, scamming? Oh, like, scamming folks use it. I don't like, if you're looking at a lot of jobs, now they have that whole thing, like, We understand it is scams now using our company name. Right? So scams, and it's making it easier. Because now you get those 8000 applications. Right? Now linked to the same, oh, this is a hot job. Right? Indeed. This is a hot job. It's This made it terrible. Just a terrible experience. It's awful.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:10]:

I I just remember seeing a recruiter on LinkedIn that She said she shut off her applications. Like, in one day, she had over a 1000, and she was trying to be open and honest about, like, you know, transparent about the process. Like, hey, shut it down. this and that. And I feel bad. She was trying to do the right thing. And by being transparent and talking about that and like, hey. Here's how many I went through today in stuff like that. And then she just got raped. Like, she became the bad guy I only did

Intro [00:36:36]:

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Benjamin Mena [00:36:36]:

Right. -- for I was just like, I saw that. I was like, I I appreciate what you were trying to do. Busch.

Kalifa Oliver [00:36:44]:

Yeah. You did face something's I'm not and I think that goes to your point. In that moment, she became the face and the voice of the bad experience of people what happened. Right? Yep. Like, there was another one that I saw Polington, like picking on them, but that's where everybody goes to be expert. But, like, there's another one I saw where they talked about stop shooting your shots. like, stop it. Like, stop applying for all these jobs that you don't think you're even remotely qualified for. And I'm like, No. Chill out. The reason that's happening is because a lot of these jobs and a lot of the people who are getting into the roles when they look at a job and you look at a person, you go, pow. How did that happen? Right? Because Somebody shoot their shot and know you're sending mixed messages. Right? Because they're like, you know, you might qualify for everything here, but Right. And ever so often you have a recruit in your inbox saying, hey, have you thought of this job? I remember there was one one recruit that I'd got in my at my end was talking about making games. Make make designing a game. Oh, correct. My profile, even somebody Who wants to design games? And you saw that I was a good person to source. Right? So people are desperate. People want jobs. People wanna shot. People want a chance, and that's the message we've sent for so long. So for you to go and wag your finger at people, who like, well, I think I need some of this criteria. Right? I think I need enough of this criteria that I could apply for this job. then you go scold them and tell them don't do it. Of course, everybody's gonna be mad at you. Sit down, chill out. Don't scold. Like, this is a Again, this goes back to the experience people are having. Recruiters are often facing a backlash to the experience people are having as a whole, and the experience. People are having a hole on this market right now is tough and recruiters right now on being in this arated. when they're not a decision makers. They are, again, the doulas of the organization, their job is to bring people in. and source people and help them through it. But now they're being the person who gets beat up. They didn't message or get shot. and that's unfortunate, but it also means that there is a less any system that we need to fix something right now. We need to fix processes, pipeline. policies. We need to get more of talent acquisition to to work with HR on different in a different way Right? We need to evolve HR as a whole. We need to get leaders to stop seeing HR as a necessary evil. in organizations, which is a whole lot of podcast, but

Benjamin Mena [00:39:32]:

That's awesome. Well, we're gonna jump over to the part of the podcast, the quick fire questions. What advice with all the data that you've seen, the recruiters that you've interacted with? What advice would you give to a brand new recruiter that's actually just getting started in this industry in

Intro [00:39:49]:

2023?

Kalifa Oliver [00:39:52]:

Canada experience matters and to really see people as people. So look at your process and how you do the process and look at the design elements of your process and question things. Right? There are things that you have control over that you can change. There are things that you can't. Right? You can't necessarily change the fact that this hiring manager does not seem to know their job and is not answering email's fast enough and you can't get the information you need. Right? But you can communicate a little bit better with the candidate. Right? You can sympathize and and empathize and talk to the candidate and really focus on the human element of it. Right? I think I think we have to really think about the design of the process that we have control over and start there because the more you start thinking of the people centering of the design of everything you do, it becomes like a a muscle, a reflex that you do, and you become better. Right? And that is translatable to get you to move not just through tone acquisition, but if you wanted to transition to sales, if you wanted to transition to HR, the other parts of HR. If you need, that will help you, and that will definitely help you strengthen. skills as a leader in due time. So people sent to your designs to really think about how does if I do it this way, How does that affect this group of people? And is this the right decision, right, and recognize too that you often know more than the hiring manager? I know that sounds way, but you often know more than they do. And so don't just let them tell you what they need. Happy discussion with about how to make this entire process better for everybody.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:34]:

Phenomenal. Has there been a book that has had a huge impact on your career?

Kalifa Oliver [00:41:40]:

She can laugh at me. Don't laugh at me. So A long time ago. I'm gonna date myself a long time ago, and I was doing advanced levels. Came with Japan Seville. I had to read a book called, taking a moment, but, by, hopefully. Right? and in it. And this is always stuck with me. I probably read this book when I was I studied this book, I think when I was, like, 1718. And in it, he he talks Atticus talks about empathy. Right? He talks about, like, walk a mile, put on the shoes and walk a mile of shoes. And I think when I look back now, I realized why I'm so much of an advocate of people sent to design. And empathetic leadership and recognizing data as humans is because of that. The idea that before I make a decision, before I make a judgment, I go with a process, the reason why I want to make work better, the reason why I believe that everybody could have a good experience at work outside of work is because you sometimes have to stop and take in somebody else's shoes. It doesn't have to defect affect me directly, and I can't ever be so narcissistic to believe that I know what everybody means, and I know the experience that everybody is having. I need to welcome my own issues. I'll go in your own. Some people. I'll walk my shoes, but I don't care what they got us back. You know, I don't care. You know, there's some things that are not, you know, they're not a question to me. They're not a debate to me. Right? Like, people's right to exist. There's not a debate.

Intro [00:43:14]:

--

Kalifa Oliver [00:43:14]:

to me. I could recognize that's your opinion. I don't have to care, but I can't treat you as a human. I can't treat you with respect, and I can't choose to ignore hip. I can't just ignore you. Right? because I can't change your mind, but I think I think that was the book. Now that I look at, I think through. That was a book that made me really grown into.

Benjamin Mena [00:43:36]:

What has been a big part of your own personal success?

Kalifa Oliver [00:43:40]:

Here. Something. I love to laugh. You know, people who get to know me well enough know I'm loud. Like, I love to laugh. I'm always cracking up. I I love to, you know, I I'm I'm not a comedian. get me wrong. My husband will let you know it. I'm not that funny, although my kids think I'm hilarious right now. But I believe that humor disrupts and humor forces conversations. Right? It allows us to be vulnerable and not move on. Right? The humor sometimes just sneaks up And so I recognize that a lot of what I do is boring. I work with Dita. Right? A lot of what I do is not sexy because when you work with data and you do HR stuff, a lot of it is process driven, a lot of it is transactional, but I do believe that I can tell stories with the data. I do believe any outcomes. I do believe that I could make you feel comfortable. I do understand that people are intimidated by data. I you can make people comfortable in any room. And so I think for me, it's just let's have a laugh. Let's just relax. Let's just chill out. hope. So I think that's why.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:55]:

Oh, and this is my favorite question, Clafa.

Kalifa Oliver [00:44:58]:

Uh-uh.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:59]:

I everything that you've learned, your ups downs, the data that you've gone through, the experiences. If you could sit down with yourself and have a cup of coffee, with yourself when you're just starting out your career. What advice would you give yourself?

Kalifa Oliver [00:45:17]:

That's the meritocracy alike. It should not exist. But don't be so odd. I know so. I spent a lot of time in my career shrinking. You know, didn't want to be smart. because it I didn't want to intimidate, right, because people, but I I even had feedback. She's so smart. Like, she and I'm like, So you shrink. Right? You're shrinking your correct because you don't wanna be the stereotype playing role. I'm constantly, like, a only role. don't be intimidated by all the rooms. And and rooms that you're super intimidated by, ask yourself if you need to be an hour. right, a statute room for you. A room shouldn't terrorize you to be in. Right? And so I think I did that for a long time in my career. In fact, I used Hula in the earlier part of my career to shrink. Right? I I wanna make you comfortable, but I realized as I grew in my career that I shouldn't create my own discomfort with the sole intention of me, getting people so comfortable that I had to tell myself, don't be too smart. Don't be too Like, don't be too. Don't be depressed in the room who's seeing because I want them to listen to what I have to say. And so don't be. Don't shrink. Take up the space of the room and figure out if that's a room that you wanna be in. It took me too long in my career to figure that out. And so that's that's where I am now. So now when I laugh, I mean, I laugh for my soul now. Like, I'm laughing not to shrink. It's still to create comfort, but it's not to say that I'm not smart. I'm a I'm a tell you about them data numbers and stuff. Crack a joke with you. You know what I mean? Like, lean into those things and make you strong and lean into those vulnerabilities because they make you stronger in the long run. But you know, decide what those rooms are, any rooms you wanna be in, I think.

Benjamin Mena [00:47:24]:

Phenomenal, definitely phenomenal advice. Well, Khalifa, before I let you go, is there anything else that you would love to share with the listeners?

Kalifa Oliver [00:47:32]:

I want to reiterate that every day is a plane. In HR, in recruiting is a person, and we really are dealing with a different group of people traumatized people. People have been through a pandemic. People have been through layoffs. People who've seen that company for a lot of love with them, seeing people who call leaders who call their family, break out for them, and be just fine with it. And so I think we really have to be more careful about how we really look at a candidate experience. And my message, Filipa, is just to really think about your employee brand and your employee value proposition now, really through the lens of candidate and employer experience. It's so important. I think If if nothing else, I wanna leave that. Just recognize that there are traumatized people who are going into organizations now leading other people, and it traumatized leaders who are now perpetuating natural, and we couldn't do better at recognizing that and calling it out and creating more people tend to design systems, policies, processes, pipelines to help it. We're not so fog on it. We can't fix it. We're in good time to do it. So that's what I I see info on a leave.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:49]:

Awesome. Well, definitely thank you so much for, joining the podcast today, talking about the candidate experience, talking about how we can elevate the candidate experience, And, like, just re highlighting. People matter, and every person every data point that you're dealing with is a person's entire life.

Kalifa Oliver [00:49:08]:

And that, like, I can't even stress that in. It's it's cool. It's, like, the biggest thing I can tell people. I'm happy to be here. Thank you, Riley.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:18]:

You're on. And, thank you for coming on and sharing and for the listeners, guys. Until next time.

Intro [00:49:23]:

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, it's scribe and leave a rating.