From Surviving to Thriving: Navigating Postpartum Mental Health - with Arielle Wozniak (Transition to Motherhood Series #5)

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:30  

Hi, everyone, welcome to the Transition to Motherhood Series. I am so excited to share this with you, I decided to create this special series because a lot of women in my orbit are having babies right now. And I remember whenever I was pregnant, and about to become a new mother, I listened to podcasts all the time, and particularly ones where women were telling their stories. One of my favorites was The Birth Hour podcast because it was women telling their birth stories. I just felt so much more empowered, when I knew what to expect. And I heard from people who had done it before me, and telling me what really happened. So that's why I wanted to create this series, I really feel that motherhood widens our range, we experienced the highest highs and the lowest lows, it's just a much wider range than, at least for me what I ever experienced before. And I think a lot of times, we only talk about the highs. And that's really what you see on social media is all of the highlights and all of the wonderful parts of motherhood. And I think that's so wonderful to see. And also, I think it's important that we are open and honest about the full range of the spectrum. And so in this series, we will be talking very openly about some of the challenges of motherhood, particularly for career focused achievement oriented women. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:12  

So the first three episodes are going to be interviews with women who are newer moms, they were all very established in their careers before they became mothers. So these are all executive moms. And then the second part of this series falls in May, which is maternal mental health month. And we will be talking to some experts and authors on the topics of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and just some of the other challenges of that transition to motherhood. I want to acknowledge that the women in this series are all executive moms with means for childcare with partners who contribute with remote work situations and flexible environments. And that was also my situation when I transitioned to motherhood. And I felt kind of an extra layer of shame and disappointment in myself that I didn't feel that I was doing a good job. Even though I had these circumstances, that should have made it easier for me, even though I had set myself up. And had created a really ideal situation. And I know that not everybody has that. And I think it's important to acknowledge. And I think it's important to acknowledge that even when we have support, and we've set ourselves up well, and we've prepared as much as we can, it's just still a really hard thing. And so if you're feeling that in your transition to motherhood, or if you felt it in your transition to motherhood, I just want to validate that it's just hard. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:49  

Also, if you know a new mom, or someone who is about to become a new mother, please share this series with them. My goal is really to help and empower more women to kind of know what to expect, know what to look out for. And also know that they're not alone if they're feeling a certain way, or if they're experiencing certain things. I just think it's so important that we talk about these things. And if you have made that transition to motherhood at some point in your life, I would love to hear from you about what resonated for you or what you also experienced if it was the same or different than what you're going to hear about in these stories. So thank you so much for tuning in. And now on to our episode. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  4:38  

Hi, everyone, welcome back to the show. Thank you all so much for joining me today. I am excited to share the fifth episode in our transition to motherhood series today and today I have a very special guest, Arielle Wozniak and I want to tell you a little bit about her and then I'm going to ask her to introduce herself and I'm really, really excited to have her here today. So Arielle is a two time survivor turned mental health coach. She understands firsthand the challenges of postpartum depression and anxiety. Having overcome it herself twice, she now dedicates her work to supporting other moms on their journey as a mental health coach. She specializes in helping moms navigate these emotional challenges. Arielle is also the host of the Defeat Postpartum Depression podcast, reaching moms in over 30 countries with over 30,000 downloads. Her expertise has been featured on trusted platforms like WebMD. Very well, mind and CBS Arias ultimate goal is to ensure that no mom feels alone in facing postpartum depression. Welcome, Arielle. 

Arielle Wozniak  5:50  

Hello, thank you for having me.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  5:53  

Yeah, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to hear a little bit about your story. And then also how you're working with clients. And I know you have some helpful advice or tips or things for our listeners to learn from today. 

Arielle Wozniak  6:10  

Yeah, I'm super excited. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:12  

Yeah, so maybe if you could start off and just tell us all a little bit about you.

Arielle Wozniak  6:16  

So I am very long winded. But I try to keep the story pretty concise. So I am someone who was very, very career oriented, so much so that like, when I was in college, I was asked, you know, like, where do you see yourself in 10 years, and it was all about the success of my career. So from the time I was actually in kindergarten, I knew that I want to be a doctor, all the way up through college to like my sophomore year, I was a pre med student. And so like that was, in my mind, this hyper successful individual, I made a couple of changes in my career, I didn't become a doctor. But even still, I had this mental picture of being highly successful. And that picture did not include getting married, it did not include having children. And so when I met my now husband, my senior year of college, it was, what is this, this is not a part of my plan. And within a year of us meeting, we were married. And so it happened super quickly, life completely changed. And shortly after that, I was pregnant with my first child. And so now I'm in my early 20s. And I had this vision of success and what life would look like for me. And it looked totally different, as different as it possibly could. And add to the mix, we moved hundreds of miles away from everything that I knew in Connecticut and moved to Georgia. 

Arielle Wozniak  7:37  

And so now I'm in a new place, or I have a child on the way I'm married, and everything is just not what I thought it would be. And this caused me to spiral. And so I actually experienced prenatal depression, and started seeing a therapist throughout my pregnancy. And it was recommended that I started medication as soon as I gave birth. So I did that, and went through this really, really long battle of trying to find myself and trying to figure out what life looks like for me in this like new normal, if you will. And that was definitely an experience, I got to the point where I had tried every medication combination that my doctor could think of. And I still was not doing any better than when I walked in her door when I was pregnant. And so she actually had a conversation with me. And she was like, Hey, I just need to have kind of like this heart to heart with you that I would expect to see some improvement by now. And you're already a year into medication. So it was really like a year and three or four months because I had been seeing them prior to even starting medication. And she was like, I don't really know what else to do for you. And that was really eye opening for me. Because, again, most people do see some improvement. I saw nothing It was felt like it was getting worse throughout that entire year. And so she asked me something that I really feel like changed the direction of everything. And she asked me if she could pray for me. And at the time, I was not like a I didn't go to church. I wasn't like a believer, I consider myself to be like spiritual. And so I was really desperate. And I said yes, you could pray for me. And so she prayed for me. And that was like the first time I felt like some relief of everything I had been holding on to for over a year. And so I started to experience this healing journey. 

Arielle Wozniak  9:32  

And we get like a year passed all of this and have the crazy idea that we should have another child. And so we try for our second and with my second I did not experience any postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety like everything was as perfect as it can be. I think a lot of it had to do with like, I was very much in control of that situation. And I am a person who likes to control things. And so I had a scheduled C section like I knew what day time, everything I knew when I could work up until, like I was working up until the Friday before giving birth. And I knew I would give birth on Tuesday, like, everything was perfectly planned out. And so it went really well. And so a couple years passed by from then, and I'm like, I really just want to try for one more and have a daughter, I have two older sos. And I just want to have a baby girl that I had wanted so badly from the beginning. And so we're like, Okay, this will be our third and final time, and we'll see what happens. And so I get pregnant for that third and final time. And surprise surprised she is a girl. And I was super, super excited. But I was also very nervous about all of it, because I felt like I had to do something to like, make this work. And as weird as it sounds like I didn't make boys the first time. That's what I had. But I felt like I had some responsibility in her being a girl and me doing everything right. And it really led to this high anxiety in my life. 

Arielle Wozniak  11:06  

So much so that when I went into labor, that's when I had my very first panic attack. I had no idea prior to that, what a panic attack even was, I had grown up with people who experienced anxiety, but I just thought they were I don't know, just like not as strong or something. Like it sounds so ridiculous now saying it. But back then I was like, well, they're just not strong people. That's why they're anxious. And when I had that panic attack, and I really thought I was dying. I remember saying to my nurse, I was like, Hey, I feel like I cannot breathe. And I think something's seriously wrong. And she basically just pat me on the shoulder was like, you just need to calm down. And I was like, I can't calm down. Like, I feel like I am dying, and no one is doing anything about it. Long story short, I clearly didn't die. I'm here today. But it was really, really painful. And then after my daughter was born, she fails her hearing tests. And so they thought she was deaf. And I lost a lot of blood in the process of delivering her. So in my mind was hemorrhaging, and dying as well. So it was kind of like this cocktail of she's deaf, I'm dying, and then they send me home. And they're like, All right, go off on your own and do it now. 

Arielle Wozniak  12:21  

And that was really when I experienced a lot of postpartum anxiety. I was also diagnosed with postpartum OCD, I checked myself into a mental hospital, it was a whole thing. But as soon as I got home from the mental hospital, which I only spent one night there, and again, that's a whole nother story that I could go down. But i spent one night there, and realized that everything isn't as bad as I thought it was. And I came home and started to put my story out. So I just went live on Facebook. And I would just share, like, Hey, here's what I'm going through. And so many people that I had not spoken with in years would reach out to me and say like, thank you so much for sharing, I'm going through the exact same thing. But when I would look at their Facebook page, it looked like everything was perfect. You know, like they had this picture of them and their baby and like, they're so happy. And I felt very confused. I was like, What do you mean, you're going through the same thing? You are the one posting that like, everything's so great, my baby's sleeping. Like, I don't understand that was very conflicting for me. Because in my mind, I'm like, Why aren't you saying something? If you are experiencing the same thing as me, Why aren't you saying something? And so that really like lit a fire in me. And I wanted moms to know that, like, what you're going through is normal. And you are not struggling alone. Although all these people look like they have it all together. They actually don't. And they're struggling too. And for whatever reason, we as a society have chosen to show the highlight reel versus what's actually going on. 

Arielle Wozniak  13:59  

And so I made that intentional choice that I'm going to show what's actually going on. And so if you come to my Facebook page, you will know if I'm struggling through something, or if things are going really well or what works for me what didn't work for me. And so I kept doing that. And then I started the podcast. And the podcast was literally started in my closet with my little ear pods that plugged into the bone at that time. And I just held the little speakers and and all that I would just speak for 20 minutes or sell and put on an episode. And from that women all across the world started reaching out to me. And I was just like, why has it taken so long for us to just speak the truth of what's going on? And so I knew I had to do something. I felt like that was the call of my life and I still feel like that's the call of my life to help these women. And so I ended up getting certified as a health coach, went through some CBT training and just did everything that I could to equip myself with the tools to be able to then help other people. And so now that's what I get to do I get to talk to women every day and tell them like, Nope, that's normal, you're normal, as much as it feels like you are an anomaly and you're out there on an island, you're totally normal. And it just feels really good for me to be able to say that to them, like in all honesty, and then also to hear the relief on the other end, like, okay, it can work out, it can be okay. That's like my high level version of my story. There's so many pieces where I'm like, oh, yeah, that and this, and that. But that's kind of how I got to where I am today.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  15:36  

Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And I think what I appreciate so much about your story, and what you shared there is the idea of why are we sharing the highlight reel versus what's actually going on. And it is definitely more common in our culture to kind of share that highlight reel. And you would never know that someone is experiencing postpartum depression or anxiety or OCD. Because you can't see that in what they're putting out there to the world. It's like we have a tendency to want to keep that private. So I'm curious for you, what made you want to go and share your story,

Arielle Wozniak  16:15  

That's a great question. So the first time I experienced postpartum depression, not that I tried to hide it from anyone, and I didn't put anything anywhere. So it wasn't like I was pretending to be super happy and like everything was okay. But I just didn't say anything to anyone. And the reason why is because in that scenario, I felt like no one would understand. And I felt very alone in that. So even when I did have one on one conversations with another mom or something, and not that I was saying what I was going through, but I would just be talking about life. And she was saying all the great things that are happening with her in her life and her baby. And so I was just like, I'm going to stay silent. I just won't say anything about this. And what I realized is by me staying silent, it took a lot longer for me to heal, because I was denying myself that opportunity to connect with other people, which was a really big part of my healing journey. And the second time around, I decided I would speak to anyone who would listen to me. So I just took a totally different approach. So first time, it was like, don't tell anyone about anything good or bad. Just keep it to yourself. Second time around, I wanted to just share it with anyone who would listen. 

Arielle Wozniak  17:31  

I think what really drove me to do that, I remember sitting in my therapists office one day, and I was telling her that I'm experiencing all these different things. I really feel like I'm going crazy. And at this point, I think we had gone to like Publix or something. So my husband and I had gone to Publix with our kids, and I left his phone at the store. And I was like I never do that. Like I never forget things. And all of a sudden now my brain doesn't remember anything. So not only am I going through all of these like anxiety type of things. Now I feel like I have Alzheimer's or something. And I remember she told me a story about when she had first had her I think it was like her first or second child. And she had gone to Dunkin Donuts. And she like before she left she grabbed her wallet, the baby in the car, like everything was great went through, made her order at the drive thru, she gets to the window, and they tell her how much to pay. And instead of her wallet, she then realized she had her TV remote. And so all this time she'd been walking around with a TV role instead of her wallet. And she said she just started laughing hysterically and was like, I don't know how I can do that, too. Like it just it happened. And she was okay with that. And for me, if that would have happened to me, I would have beat myself up for the entire rest of probably the week, like how could you bring a TV remote? Like are you not smart enough to know the difference between a remote and a wallet? Like who would mix those two things up. But the fact that she laughed about it, and then got free coffee and a doughnut because they also laughed and thought it was hilarious. 

Arielle Wozniak  19:08  

I was like, why aren't we telling these things like then it would make me feel not so alone. Like yeah, I left my husband's phone at the grocery store. But you know what I did, I left my wallet and grabbed the remote instead. And I've also like, had these moments where other women they feel comfortable now sharing their story of like the things that happened to them. I've had a woman who like she left her car open and went into Costco shopped for the entire time came back out and realized her door was open to her car. Thankfully, nothing was taken. But she's like, how could I forget that? But it was a moment of laughter and those sorts of things. So when I'm able to receive that I wanted to be able to give that to other people that wanted them to know like you're not alone. Yes, you may feel like you're going crazy. You may feel like this or that or whatever it is, but I wanted people to know that you are not crazy. And you're not alone in this, because I felt so alone that very first time. So I think that was really what compelled me to share was once I heard just one story that I could relate to, I was like, that's what we need to be doing. Like that's the thing right there, is sharing the stories that make people feel seen. And so that's what I try to do.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:20  

It's interesting, because in that moment that you talked about, of your therapist realizing she had the remote instead of the wallet, it's her thought about that was, oh, my gosh, this is hilarious. How could I have possibly done this? 

Arielle Wozniak  20:36  

Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:37  

And you said, your thought might have been something like, Oh, my God, I'm going crazy. Like, something's wrong with me. It's like all of those thoughts. And those thoughts aren't always true. They're just what our brain is creating at that time. And of course, if we're experiencing anxiety or depression, we're going to go more towards probably the second thought, right? Of something's wrong with me, I'm going crazy and like continuing to look for something wrong, rather than bringing some kind of levity to the situation. And like, this is pretty hilarious. Like, how in the world could I have mistaken this, but I think when you're in it, it's really hard to be able to do that. I also wonder, because you experienced depression in your first and anxiety in your third, was there an element of kind of shame as well, because I think a lot of times that comes along with depression. And your thought was, no one is going to understand this. In our episode four, Suzanne, author of Postpardon Me, also talked about that, that she didn't want to share about her postpartum depression, because she just thought, like, nobody's going to understand this. And like, I'm experiencing this completely alone. And this is unique to me, and like, I should be happy, I should be experiencing joy. And I'm not so therefore like, that means something about me, as a person, and maybe as a mother, like, I'm not a good enough mother, because I'm not enjoying this enough. And I'm having these feelings. And so those kinds of thoughts bring on more shame and therefore more desire to stay quiet. 

Arielle Wozniak  22:21  

Yeah, yeah, I definitely believe that. And one of the things that I also think it depends on what you believe about yourself. So thinking of like the example that my therapist said, If I believe that I'm a smart person, and I've got most of my things together, and I'm a good mom, if I believe those things, then when something happens, it's not a big deal. It's not catastrophic. But if I already had these, like seeds of doubt, then something happens, it becomes much bigger. And so I had those seeds. And a lot of us have those seeds, especially, you know, like, if you don't have a certain like, maybe level of self confidence in what you're doing as a mom, this is all new to you, you don't feel like I've got this all together, or you don't feel like you have competence in yourself to learn those things. Whatever it is, and whatever you believe about yourself, is going to change the way you interpret an event. So two very same events could happen to two very different people. And they interpret it very differently. 

Arielle Wozniak  23:18  

And so the scenario that I always think about is like, when someone gets into an accident, and let's say their car is totaled, they could have two different perspectives. One could be like, Oh, my goodness, this is so terrible. Now I've got to get a new car, how am I gonna get to work and like, all of that, like negative side. And then there's the other perspective of like, I survived, this is amazing, I'm so glad this is a miracle. Like, you could have that perspective as well. But it all is about what you believe in the first place. So whatever you came into it with is what's going to like pour out of you when you go through these really tough scenarios. And I heard this message one time before, like, it's what's in your cup. So whatever's in your cup, when someone bumps you, that's what's going to spill over. And so when you have these things that happen in your life, whatever is already in there is what's going to spill out of you. And so I think there's a lot of value in doing some of this, like proactive work. And I wish I had known that prior to getting pregnant, prior to giving birth, all of that like really doing some of the proactive mental work to make sure that I was in a place where I had the right beliefs about myself. And so if you start off with wrong beliefs about yourself, then it's a lot easier to spiral and go downhill and all those things, but if I had started with stronger beliefs about myself about who I am about my identity, I think it would have been a lot easier for me to transition into motherhood, versus having thoughts of like, My identity is wrapped up in my work. If I don't work, then who am I? But then when I'm not able to work as much or do the same things. Now I have these struggles. And so I think a lot of it just comes down to like what did we believe before it happened that's going to impact everything that happened afterwards, and how we actually interpret what's happening to us, so.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  25:01  

I love that I, it's interesting because when I was starting my business and deciding who to work with, I decided to focus on executive moms. But part of me was like, I really want to work with people who don't have children yet, but are planning to, and we need to make sure there's like a really solid, strong foundation of belief in oneself and unpacking all of that. Who am I, with his career? Who am I, with a child? Because there's so much there in terms of our identities and thinking about like, what do we expect of ourselves in motherhood? What kind of parent do we want to be or expect ourselves to be in? What kind of employee or CEO or business owner do we want to be as we are making this transition to parenthood? But I think that's so important, that strong foundation, how do you recommend that people do that or find that or create that? 

Arielle Wozniak  26:00  

Yeah, I think that there is really this huge opportunity to figure out like, who you are at your core without all the other things that are added. So oftentimes, when we introduce ourselves we'll say, like, Oh, I am a mother, or I am a CEO, or I own this company. But who are you? That's the real question that we need to be able to answer and be confident in that be competent, and who I am as an individual, and then you can build on top of that. But when your identity is attached to anything that's outside of you, when that thing is taken away from you, because there's a chance that it will be taken away, then you're going to struggle. And so what I have found is that the majority of us find our value in something external. So there's something out there, that's what gives us our value. For me, it was my career, and being able to work really hard and kind of like climb the corporate ladder, that was the thing that made me valuable. But what I realized is that I am inherently valuable, I don't need anything else added to me, I don't need to have a certain job, I don't need to have a certain title, I don't need to even have children, or do this thing or whatever, like I already have value. And so for me, that value comes from knowing that I'm created by God, this is the way He created me, he wanted me to be here, like, that's where my value comes from. And so you have to find that thing, whatever it is that you feel like, that's my value. That's who I'm created to be. This is the reason why I'm here type of thing. Versus, well, if I'm the CEO, that means that I'm this super successful, valuable person to society. And so one day, you won't be that person, one day, you will eventually retire, hopefully, and not have to work all the way until you're like 90 or something. And then it's like, who am I now? 

Arielle Wozniak  27:50  

And so you hear about these people who go through like a midlife crisis, or even now that we've moved the retirement age even further up the ladder, there are people who now they're like, 70 years old, and they retired for the first time and they're like, I don't know who I am. Because that was who I was. And so I think it's really, really important to like, figure out at your core, who am I? Why am I valuable? Why is it that I'm here, like I have a purpose within me, and it doesn't have to do with what I can produce. And if you can get to that point, then you're in a place where no matter what else happens to you, you already have that belief, it's locked into your head, and then nothing else can shake you from that. Yes, you'll still have trials and your health struggles and all of that, but you'll be able to make it through a lot stronger, you'll be able to make it through a lot easier. And so a majority of the women that I work with their purpose was wrapped up in all the work that they could produce. And that's the reason why we're in this massive struggle. That's like the majority of the women is like, Well, I was working and I was able to produce income and I was doing really well with this job or whatever it is. And now I don't feel like I can do that I've had to shift some of my priorities to Well, I'm a mom. And so this has to take precedence over that. But I don't want it to. And then there's guilt and shame and all that that comes in because you're like, Well, do I value work more than my child? And there's all these questions around identity. 

Arielle Wozniak  29:20  

And so like, in short, if you can get your identity laser focused and understand who you are before going into parenthood, I think that that would benefit you greatly. But many of us don't do that. And we don't prepare for motherhood in that way. So if you're already a mother, and now you're having to figure it out, it's very similar, like in terms of the process, but it might take you longer when you have other things that you have to focus on too. So I think that identity is like that's at the core. I have to know who I am before everything else is added to really be set up for success. But if you're already there, then you can figure it out while you're there.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  29:53  

Yeah, I 100% agree. I think that reckoning came for me at my transition to motherhood. And so that's why I think these conversations are so important. Because that's just not something we even often think about too much before this little baby's here. And then we're like, oh my gosh, it's just so much, right. And because we're transitioning, we're trying to figure out how to keep this human alive. We're trying to figure out how to show up at work when, you know, I used to be able to work 80 hours a week, and I can't do that anymore. So now how do I show up? And what is my value and I feel like I'm failing, because I'm not showing up at work like I used to and feel like I'm failing because I'm not being the mom that I want to be or that I expected to be. It makes total sense that so many high achieving career oriented women are experiencing a lot of challenge in the transition to motherhood, possibly, maybe often leading to postpartum anxiety and or depression. And so we've talked a little bit about anxiety and depression, you talked a tiny bit about OCD said you're diagnosed with postpartum OCD. I'm curious, maybe if you could tell us about what do you see in your practice, and or have you experienced yourself so that that way people know what to look out for or what they may be experiencing? And is this normal? Or is this classified as something?

Arielle Wozniak  31:11  

So I kind of think of this spectrum, if you will. And so kind of at the start of the spectrum, is this crisis mode. And many of us, we might be in that mode for like a moment, but majority of people are not there. Crisis, I think of these individuals need hospitalization for support. So they're either a danger to themselves or to others. One thing I do want to differentiate is if you have high levels of anxiety, or postpartum OCD, you may think that you're a danger to yourself or to other people. But if you don't want to act on those thoughts that you're having, then you're not actually a danger, if you want to act on those, that means you're in crisis. And so if you're in crisis, that is, the hospital is the best place for you, that's where they can get you stabilized, get you to a place where you are safe, where those around you are safe. And there shouldn't be any shame in that. I think there is a lot of shame in that. And that's why we get these scenarios where a mom instead of going for support, she's kind of like gone off and done her own thing. And that could end really tragically. And so if you're in crisis, I just think it's really, really important to just say, Okay, I need to recognize that this is where I am. And the best place for me to be, for myself, and for my child, is somewhere where I can be hospitalized. So that's inpatient type of therapy. 

Arielle Wozniak  32:33  

If you're not in crisis, I think there are other options that you can kind of go through. And there's a whole spectrum of options based on what it is that you want to do. And so the next step from the crisis, a lot of times, what I see is people who are fighting, and so they're ready to get up every day and put in the work and do whatever it takes to fight and kind of get to where it is that they are looking to go. These are the women that I typically work with are like these fighters. And that's because as a coach, I'm not doing the deep kind of like emotional work that you would with a therapist. And I'm not talking about what happened to you when you were five and why you maybe believe this lie or like all of those things. I can teach clients how to do some of that on their own. But I'm much more about like taking action, I am biased towards action. It's just who I am as an individual. And that's why as a coach, I think that works out really well. Because we're all about behavior change. What are the behaviors that I can change that can help me to get to where I want to be? 

Arielle Wozniak  33:32  

This can work out really well for individuals who are struggling with postpartum OCD, especially, because they have compulsions. And so when we think of compulsions, majority of the time, we're like, Oh, these are people who wash their hands like a lot, or they have to flick the light switch a certain amount of times, or they have to, like do something with their keys a certain amount of times until it feels right. And majority of us with compulsions, that's not actually what it is. And so if you're experiencing postpartum OCD, and you are having these intrusive thoughts about hurting your baby, then maybe your compulsion is that you remove all sharp objects from your house, you won't even have scissors in your house. And so maybe you've got a bag or a storage area where you're like, all those sharp things, they go there. That's a compulsion. That's just something that you acted upon, it doesn't actually have any evidence that that's going to stop you from harming your child. But in your mind, it's like, that's what I have to do to stop myself from harming my baby, or a compulsion could be to like Google, every time you feel a certain sensation. So you might be experiencing health anxiety. 

Arielle Wozniak  34:35  

And so for me, one of the compulsions that I had was to ask for reassurance. And so I asked for it all the time. And I'm sure that my mom and my husband were sick of me asking them, Am I okay? But you can ask them in multiple different ways. So for me, I got really obsessed about these like, it's like the temples of your forehead. So if you're not watching, you wouldn't be able to like see exactly what I'm talking about. But I was convinced that my temples were sunken in. And for me it's sunken in temples meant that you're dying. So I was really focused in hyper focus on my temples. And so I was constantly asking people like, do you think that my temples are any further sunken in today than they were yesterday, and maybe an hour later, I might come back and want me to reassure me again. And so those are more of the compulsions that I typically see and that a lot of us go through, versus I gotta wash my hands like, that does happen for some individuals. But a lot more often, these compulsions are things that you don't even realize they're compulsions, it's just like you automatically did it, and without really realizing it. And so in that fighting phase, I work with a lot of moms who are experiencing anxiety, and postpartum OCD. 

Arielle Wozniak  35:47  

And then we have kind of a surviving phase where you're just like, you know, I've just kind of accepted that this is what it is, maybe I don't have like the motivation to fight this, this is more common, I would say, with postpartum depression exclusively, because you're just in this place of like, well, whatever, you know, like, I'm just here, it just is what it is. And in this surviving phase, I can work with clients there, but I have to get them to fighting. Like, I have to get you to the place where you're willing to fight to be able to make changes. A lot of my clients were in this surviving phase where they're just like, apathetic, yes, they want to change, they want things to be different. However, they are recognizing that they just don't have maybe the motivation or the drive to make them different. Therapy can do a ton of work here. So if you're in that stage, I highly recommend therapy as an approach, whether you're doing that with coaching, or just in therapy. And I say just but therapy is amazing. Either way, I feel like if you're in surviving, you need someone to work through some of those deep emotions and help you move towards getting rid of some of those thoughts that are not super helpful. And I do a lot of that in fighting as well and helping you to replace some of your thoughts with things that are more helpful. But surviving is one of those places where we have to get the motivation to change before. 

Arielle Wozniak  37:09  

And then I look at it as there's this fourth stage of thriving, that's where everyone ultimately wants to be, we want to be in this place of, even if things are not going as I would desire them to go, that mentally I can still handle it, I can still be in a place of peace, I can still be comfortable with kind of how things are going, even if they're falling apart around me. And so I work towards moving all my clients to the stage of thriving. And so crisis is kind of the one spectrum here all the way over to thriving is where we would want to get. But hopefully that's the way that I kind of categorize it. But it's really super simple. And usually clients can pick out exactly where they are. And they're like, Hey, I'm in fighting, how can you support me? Or I'm surviving, how can you support me? And so it makes it a lot easier just to identify where you are personally.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  37:58  

Yeah, thank you for breaking that down. I think when we were talking, before we started recording, you talked about that you see, a lot of the clients you're working with are in anxiety or in that OCD. And so it makes sense that that's where people are generally more in that kind of fighting stage. And the surviving, like you said, tends to be more depression and apathy. And so makes sense that, you know, maybe, if you're in that, it's like it maybe feels like a little bit too much to even reach out to a coach or to think about action because it's like, I'm just so I just want to sleep or I'm just so tired. Or, you know, I don't feel like I can, like anything was going to get me out of this or like I can change it. In this series, so far, we've talked more about anxiety, a little bit about depression, but we haven't really talked about the compulsion. It sounds like that kind of goes hand in hand with anxiety. So we get into this new transition where we have a new baby. And it's like, you know, we can't control our day right now. So we're going to try and control something. And I just wonder if that has anything to do with especially since we are generally maybe a little bit more control oriented or like things a certain way. And then you know, we don't have that control anymore. So we kind of then start to develop these compulsions or things that we feel like we need to have control over.

Arielle Wozniak  39:24  

Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of these compulsions come from like some sort of intrusive thoughts. So intrusive thoughts, these are unwanted thoughts that just pop up out of nowhere. And it's like, Well, why would I think that? And so we have this thought that perhaps we'll injure the baby or we have a thought that we might injure ourselves. Or I heard a comedian one time explain it as like he was driving down the road, and he saw these people biking on the side and he was like, what if I just and just drove into them? He was like, Why did I think that? I don't understand why that thought would come into my head. I don't want to hit those people. But like, it just came to my mind. And when you have those intrusive thoughts, and you're in a place of more like clarity then you can usually say, I'm not going to do that thing it doesn't, it doesn't matter to me, it's irrelevant. But when you're in this place where you're in more of a negative headspace, then you start to think that those intrusive thoughts are your thoughts that they're your true feelings. And so you're not able to separate yourself from the thoughts. And so that leads you to try to control the situation, because your True Self is trying to make sure that you don't do that thing that pops into your head. And so there is this element of trying to control it. 

Arielle Wozniak  40:39  

And for those that start to try to control things without necessarily having a thought, like an intrusive thought attached to it, it may not be as much of an OCD type of symptom, if you will, it might just be their desire to control. And so they're like, I have to get the baby on a schedule, because that's the one thing I can control. Or you can't even control a baby schedule, but you can try. You can control like certain things, there are some of us who have like that, that type A personality where it's like, I will then control the controllables. And do my best to make order out of this chaos, there can absolutely be some of those elements. But when you classify it as a compulsion, it has more to do with like, you tried to mitigate risk and trying to make everyone safe. And like, that's what we think is going to make us safe. And so even the people who wash their hands a lot, it's because they think that that's going to make them safe from germs. It's not, but they think it is. So it's like well, that's a compulsion I have to do. And so there's a lot more of like the anxiety that's involved in like trying to just make this situation safer for all involved. And so that's where a lot of those compulsions come in. But yeah, I can definitely see that even without having some of the OCD type symptoms, there's a desire to control when you have anxiety in general, because you're like, well, everything's chaos. So how do I fix it? And I used to call myself Mrs. Fix It, because I just want to fix everything and just make it make it work. And that's a lot of us who are like high achieving is that we want things to work. And so we're the ones who come in and fix the problems. And yeah, you tried to do the same thing in this situation. So I can totally see that. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  42:20  

Yeah, we are all Olivia Pope and some point. 

Arielle Wozniak  42:23  

Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  42:24  

I would love to hear if you would be open to sharing some of the intrusive thoughts that maybe like you've heard from clients, or that you have thought yourself or the most out there ones, because I think I saw this book the other day, because I've been in this maternal mental health and transition to motherhood, focus for the last several weeks, I can't remember the name of the book, but it was about how we have these thoughts. And like you said, it's kind of like when things are going well, and we're feeling good about ourselves, we might not even notice them as much or make a big deal out of them. You know, like, we might have the thought that we want to knock over the people on the bikes. And we're like, what, come on Leanna. Like, that's not you and just like go on about our day. And you know, probably not even think about it again. And so when we're feeling secure, and you know, we're feeling like good, and our routine and everything like that those come up, and they're not like a distraction, or they don't derail our day. But then whenever we're in this new phase, we're lacking sleep, most likely, you know, we're trying to adjust to this new role of mother, then whenever, you know, a thought like that comes in, you know, we're going to probably latch on to it a little bit more, we're going to make it mean something about us, we're going to say like, oh my gosh, like something must be wrong with me that I'm having these thoughts, especially if they're about our baby. And so I'm curious, like, maybe just to normalize some of those intrusive thoughts, or maybe just to say them out loud, because I think sometimes we have them and then we feel like, Oh, I must be a terrible mother, if I'm having that thought. 

Arielle Wozniak  44:08  

Yeah, one thing that I always tell clients is like intrusive thoughts, they grate against who you truly believe yourself to be. And so they are so totally opposite of who you actually are as an individual. And so the discomfort that you feel is actually a good thing. And so I try to explain that. Because if you were comfortable with this, and just like, Oh, if that happens, that's fine, then okay, we have a problem. But if you're in a place where if that thing happened, it destroys everything, that actually means you don't want to do that thing. So that's evidence for you. And so I like to collect that evidence just to prove to yourself that you're actually not going to do the thing that you're fearing that you're going to do. 

Arielle Wozniak  44:48  

I've heard so many different types of intrusive thoughts. So ones that are really common are like purposely dropping the baby down the stairs like, well, what if I just like throw my baby down the stairs? And so there are a lot of women who then to compensate for that, their compulsion is I don't carry the baby down the stairs, someone else has to carry the baby down the stairs, there are some women who will actually stay in the first level of their home all throughout the day, so they don't have to carry the baby down the stairs and wait for the husband or whoever to get there to be the ones who carries the baby up and down the stairs. So that's very common. One that I read about in a book, I think it's called Don't drop the baby was actually about this woman who had this intrusive thought that she would put her baby in the microwave and turn it on. And so she would not go near the microwave with her daughter. So she like, the kitchen was off limits do not go in the kitchen with the baby, because you might put the baby in the microwave, turn it on, and who knows what happens? So that's a very common one. There's also ones about like sexually assaulting your child. And so some people won't give their baby a bath. Like there's just like, I'm not the person who's going to do it. Because what if, what if I do that? I know I don't want to but what if I do? 

Arielle Wozniak  45:57  

One for me, which it's funny now, but when I was in sixth grade, I had a teacher. I don't know why he told us the story. But he said that his cousin used to chase him around with a spoon and say he was going to scoop his eyeballs out. And so when I was going through postpartum anxiety, I was like, what if I scooped my daughter's eyeball, though, like, what if I take a spoon and like, literally just like, get in there and scooped them out. And so I did not want even look at her for too long. And so my compulsion was like, I could hold her, but like, I'm not going to look at her. Because if I look at those eyes, I might think spoon, get it. And obviously, that wasn't likely to happen. But it just felt like it was. And another one was that like, through the middle of the night, or when I'm sleeping, that I might get up and do something to someone to injure them in my sleep. And being asleep was one of the things I felt like I couldn't control my body when I'm asleep. When I'm awake, I can do everything possible to make sure that I keep everyone safe. But when I'm asleep, I lose that power. And so I actually didn't want to go to sleep for days on end, I would try to keep myself up so that I did not hurt anyone. And when I finally felt like I was exhausted to the point where I couldn't stay up any longer, I had my mom sleep on the outside of me in a bed where she slept on the outside and I slept on the inside, I wouldn't even sleep in the room with my husband, because we were co sleeping with our daughter and she was in there too. And so I was like, Mom, you sleep on the outside and protect everyone in this house. So like if I wake up, you come to action and make sure I don't hurt anyone. And so there are a lot of thoughts like that. 

Arielle Wozniak  47:37  

I've heard a lot that have to do with like knives and hurting someone with a knife. So some people taking knives completely out of their kitchen and like, I'm just not going to have any knives because I'm deathly afraid of that. I've also heard of ones where they're just really obsessed about their child getting sick and getting some sort of serious illness. And so to kind of mitigate the risk of that they won't go anywhere with their children. And anyone who comes over has to be wearing a mask or double masking washing your hands a certain amount of times, like, let's keep everything like clean around the babies so that they don't get sick. And then there are these thoughts of like, what if I go crazy? Like what if I just go crazy. We've heard all the stories about moms who take their lives or take the lives of their children. Like, what if I just like one day, I snapped, and I go crazy. So that's another thought that can leave people really paralyzed and unable to like, do anything in the current moment because they're so focused on making sure that they remain sane. And that was one of the things that I did experience as well as like I wanted to make sure that I was saying and so any evidence to the contrary was evidence that I was going crazy. And so when I left my husband's phone at the store, it was like, Well now you're starting to forget things. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  48:54  

One step closer. 

Arielle Wozniak  48:56  

Yeah, you are one step closer to going crazy. And my therapist actually asked me one day, she was like, What do you mean by going crazy, like I don't even know, just like the people they go crazy, you know, like, and they lose their mind. But it felt very real to me in those moments that there was a high likelihood that I would just one day snap and be crazy. She also told me not to call people crazy. But that's the way my brain explains it it's like, oh, they're crazy. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  49:22  

Yeah. And so you said in terms of action, of course therapy is always recommended for support here. And also, one of the things that you said was about collecting evidence kind of to the contrary, right, like collecting evidence that these thoughts are not us, and they're not who we are. They're out of alignment with our core belief system. And so collecting evidence going to therapy, anything else you recommend in terms of helping to cope with these kinds of things?

Arielle Wozniak  49:53  

Yeah, so if it's specifically like postpartum OCD and compulsions, the best thing you can do for yourself is the most uncomfortable thing, which is to avoid a compulsion. And so the woman, let's say the example of putting your child in the microwave, so I'm avoiding the kitchen, I want you to go in the kitchen, I want you to open the microwave, look inside the microwave, close the door back, prove to yourself that you are not going to do the thing that you fear. I want you to walk up and down the stairs with your baby in a safe position and making sure that you're not tripping or anything like that. But I want you to do those things that you are fearing are going to happen. And so that can actually be the evidence and proving to yourself by avoiding these compulsions, because the more that you avoid these compulsions, the bigger you make it. And so the more you avoid going down the stairs with your child, and now you're a year, two years down the road, and you still won't go down the stairs with your child. And so you're making it a bigger issue by doing all these compulsions, the very things that feel like they're making you safe and that moment are actually hurting you long term, you get a little bit of relief right now. But long term, you're making this bar bigger for yourself to be able to overcome it. And so if you're experiencing OCD type symptoms and compulsions, we need to avoid the compulsions. There are a lot of great OCD therapists who can help you with coming up with the thoughts that you need to replace during those moments. So it's not just the avoiding of the compulsions. But now I have to tell myself a new story. And you can do that on your own. Some of us are totally capable of doing that our own and some of us may need support with that. And if you need support, there's no shame in doing that. But just making sure that you are aware of what your compulsions are, and then being able to stop yourself from going through those compulsions. 

Arielle Wozniak  51:43  

Another thing that I talk about a lot with my clients is capturing your thoughts, we have so many thoughts every single day, and majority of them are automatic thoughts that we just allow to just filter through our head. And so one thought could be I'm a bad mom, or I'm not capable of doing this, or I have no work now that I'm not working this job, or whatever it is. And I encourage my clients to capture those thoughts and to actually write it down on paper, like the what happened in that moment, the thought that you thought about that particular moment, or event or trigger as a lot of individuals call it, and then how you felt because of that, and what behavior came from that. And once we can recognize the patterns and the cycles that are happening, then we can interrupt the behavior. And so that's where I come in is with this behavior modification. But if you don't know what you're actually doing in response to the events, then there's not much that we can do. And so there's this level of self awareness that has to come in. And so I help my clients to work through like, how do I actually capture my thoughts to figure out what the behaviors are that I'm doing to stop the behaviors that are not helpful. And so again, most of this is happening in a matter of seconds, it happens so quickly, that we don't usually recognize that even had a thought about something. And so we have to slow down enough to recognize the thoughts that lead to a feeling that lead to a behavior, and then be able to change the behavior from there. 

Arielle Wozniak  53:05  

So those are some of the things that I work on with my clients. And then from there, we can also work on just kind of like your overall goal. So what is it that you're actually looking to achieve, and breaking it down into very small, actionable steps, again, biased toward action, so I like to do something. So I recommend that and then I do a lot of thought work with clients. So when we collect these bits of evidence, I actually want you to hang on to them. And I create like, for myself, I created a jar and I recommend that clients create a jar, and you put all your evidence into this jar. And so day by day, you're seeing this thing still up to the brim, and then it's over spilling of all the evidence that you are actually a really great mom, you are someone that you can depend on. You're someone that your baby can depend on. And these are things that you can go through in those really tough moments and read back to yourself like, oh, yeah, I did, I did that thing. And so I called it my winning jar. And so all my evidence went in there, whether it was like compulsion that I avoided doing or it was just that, like, I did something really great. Like today, I gave myself a shower and had three meals, and I also kept the baby alive all day. Put that into my winning jar, and now like it's spilling over, and all these things compound on top of each other. And so really the goal is to have a clearer picture of where it is that you're trying to go, and then break it into smaller bits. How do we get there? And then all along the way, how do you keep yourself motivated to keep going to keep going? Even when it gets hard, I have to keep pushing through this. And so I give some sort of like tips along the way. And the winning jar is one of them that I've had a lot of clients say is just like, super, super helpful. Sometimes you don't even have to go back and read everything that you wrote. It's just enough to see that the jar is spilling over and you're like, okay, everything's kind of okay. And you can just move forward from that moment. 

Arielle Wozniak  54:58  

And I always always recommend telling someone. So even if you're not comfortable yet reaching out to a doctor, or you're not comfortable reaching out to a therapist or a coach, help someone, tell someone that you are struggling, because the moment you open your mouth and get that out there, you break off a lot of the power that anxiety has on you in the first place. Because anxiety and depression can really fester in the darkness. And so when you bring just even a little bit of light to it, you start to feel better. And one of the things that I had mentioned is that like community and connecting with people was a huge part of healing for me. And funny enough, it was actually one of my friend's husband, who he and I connected a lot about like anxiety and intrusive thoughts and all these things that I had no idea he had experienced, because he never said anything about it. And he looked like he was doing fine, which most of us do looks like we're doing fine. And so when I started to voice some of the things I was going through, he was like, me too. And we would literally sit on her couch for like an hour, and just go back and forth. Like, oh, did this happen to you? Oh, that happened to me. And like, it was just such this like encouraging time to know that I wasn't alone. And he didn't solve any of my problems. He didn't make anything any better. It was just that I knew that someone understands what I'm going through. And so I encourage you to say something to someone, and then get the help that you need to get, because it doesn't necessarily get better on its own. 

Arielle Wozniak  56:27  

And I realized that a lot, my first time is that it won't it won't just magically get better. There's not like any one day that you just wake up and it's like butterflies and rainbows like everything's so amazing. It's so much better. You have to actually do something if you want to feel any differently. And so yeah, I would encourage you to do that. And if you're in surviving mode right now, I think that's likely the hardest of the places to be, just because you just kind of don't really have any motivation to do something differently. But I would try to write down why, like, why is it important to even make progress? Why is it important to heal from this, and what it costs you if you don't, and if you can write those two things down, I think that can give you the motivation to start pushing towards fighting to actually get out of this. So yeah, hopefully, those are some practical things. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  57:22  

Yeah, thank you so much. I think that is really helpful for people who are in it, whether they're in the surviving or the fighting mode, and like you said, to get to the thriving, so if people are looking for a coach or some support, how might they find you? And connect with you? 

Arielle Wozniak  57:41  

Yeah, my website is my name, it's ArielleWozniak.com. And if I have two names that are hard to spell, apparently.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  57:50  

We'll definitely put it in the show notes. So everyone can look there and link from there. Yes.

Arielle Wozniak  57:56  

Yeah. So you'll be able to find out about all my services on the website, I also have a free guide on there, one of the things that I have heard the most is that, I don't want to take medication. And so I created this guide to help you decide whether or not taking medication is a good choice for you. I feel like there's a huge stigma attached to medication. And there shouldn't be because if it's going to help you then why not do the thing that would help. And if you don't feel like it's going to help you then have a separate plan. And so within this guide, I kind of outline all the steps to make a decision about whether or not you should try taking medication. I would say like majority of my clients do not want to take medication. It's just something I've had to talk through with a lot of women throughout the past couple years. And so this guide is a resource to kind of help you come to this place of if it is that medication is the best next step for you to accepting that and being okay, and not allowing there to be any shame attached to that decision.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:57  

Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so, so much, Arielle. I know that a lot of women who are in this right now or who have been in it or who might go through it in the future are going to benefit from hearing this. So thank you so much for sharing your personal story and all of your wisdom with us. I so appreciate you coming on the show. 

Arielle Wozniak  59:18  

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  59:19  

Absolutely. Thank you so much, everybody for tuning in. And we'll see you all next week. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  59:29  

Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.