Navigating Authentic Leadership as Tech Startup Execs: A Journey of Friendship, Motherhood, and Growth - with Annemieke Rice

Leanna McGrath  0:08  
Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Lasky, McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna McGrath  0:30  
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. I'm very excited about today's conversation, I have my dear friend with me Annemieke, we were both executives working moms for a while I took a full break, automated took a sort of break, and she's back in the game. And so I'm really excited to talk about our experiences and hear more about her. So Annemieke, can you just say hi to everyone, and maybe introduce yourself a little bit.

Annemieke Rice  1:00  
Sure. I'm always great to chat with you Liana and probably share and laugh a little bit about what we've gone through or what we go through. So a little bit about me, I am a working mom, I'm a have a 18 month old at home right now. And I would say how to fun exit and reentry into my customer success, exact life, happy in my motherhood and my career right now, which is feels like a special moment to be. I live in Boston with my husband and my daughter. And that's a little about me.

Leanna McGrath  1:34  
Thank you. So we used to say that we kind of lived very parallel lives for a long time. And we both worked and we both worked in higher education. And then we went into ed tech startups. And we both became the vice president of customer success at our respective companies, and our companies competed against each other. And then then we were brought together in an arranged marriage whenever a private equity firm, purchased both of our companies and decided to merge us together. So we've had lots of experience working, doing the same thing separately, doing the same thing together, and now doing similar things and different things as well. So let's start with our first startup experience. So we were both 20 Something VPS, the only woman on the executive team for at least the majority of the time, we both planned to have kids at some point, but we weren't quite there yet. So how was that for you, Annemieke?

Speaker 2  2:33  
Well, it's interesting at the time, it was exciting and thrilling. And generally, I feel like thinking about doing things every day that I was by no means qualified to do at all. learning a ton. And yet, I think that the part of it that was unfortunate was that it was lonely. I felt I didn't have connection to mentors in my career at that time, where the mentors didn't really share the same life aspirations that I did, I didn't really have any other women in leadership to go to or chat with customer success was such an emerging field at that time. It wasn't even named, it wasn't named, there wasn't a network, there wasn't a community in the way there is today, which I think is so wonderful for women and folks of all kinds who are trying to make it in this industry. And that is also why I think it's so great to have found you and found others that I now get to have as that support and connection. But I think it was just so exciting. And such a high growth oriented time for me as a person and as an executive too.

Leanna McGrath  3:39  
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think I felt lonely because like you said customer success, like what is it? Nobody really knew. So when I would go to conferences, or you know, there'd be like sales and marketing and development. And then it was like, Oh, just go hang out with the salespeople because you're kind of like them, right, like we kind of just get grouped in with somebody else. So yeah, I definitely hear that. And as you kind of look back on that time, so you said it was a high growth time, what were some of the things that you were learning and like what was exciting in how would you I guess, define your growth during that time?

Annemieke Rice  4:20  
Yeah, I felt like at the time, I was bringing a certain amount of expertise to my role. I was in a leadership role because at my company, I was the expert in the customer experience. I had been a customer I focused all my time on that. And yet, the things that became the roadblocks, roadblocks or obstacles for me had nothing to do with the customer experience. It was things like finance terms and negotiating how to talk to a bunch of board members who had MBAs from fancy schools and ask questions and acronyms I've never heard before. Or exactly lots of for them, so you can accidentally mispronounce and worry in that moment, I know I'm walking into this room, you know, younger and as the only woman. And so the expectations are already maybe like, Okay, a little girl, you don't know what you're talking about. And then I actually didn't know what I was talking about. And so I felt like I had to really study a lot and, and make sure that I was over prepared and overqualified to do everything. And those were really expectations I set on myself, it's not like anyone actually made me feel that way. I think I just came from a position of needing to prove myself and every room and every conversation. And then the second was learning how to lead right how to lead when the models for leadership around me didn't fit in my skin properly. It didn't feel like what I was seeing was something that I could fit into my personality. A lot of the role models for leadership in women that I had seen were very, this makes me sound so callous, caring, and compassionate and kind. And I was competitive and critical and innovative. And so finding a way to be a people leader, but be true to the things that got me to where I was was a challenge. I don't even know that I succeeded at it every day, it was a lot of failing and trying again. So I think that those were the two, the two places where I did the most learning, and a lot of that was stumbling, stumbling around, trying something asking for feedback, hearing a lot of difficult feedback, and trying again, and then eventually finding people that I could collaborate with meeting you, I had some amazing women that made up my leadership team. So the women that I chose to hire, and promote who I still look to, as always looked to as peers at the time, I often hire people more qualified to me to make more money than me because I knew that's what I needed to make the team succeed. And that was a huge part of my learning was learning from my team and getting really good feedback from a team.

Leanna McGrath  6:58  
Oh, so many things I want to jump into. But I think when you talk about how to lead, and kind of not having examples around you that resonated with how you like what feels right for you, that speaks to me, I definitely had that experience as well. And I'm curious what you did about that, because for me, I recognized at some point that what I was doing was kind of seeing that there were all these men around me and seeing what they were doing. And I kind of had this belief that since I wasn't in my own domain, I was no longer on a campus. I wasn't, you know, my master and both of our master's degrees are in higher education. And a lot of people I worked with had business degrees or MBAs, I felt like, well, they must know what they're doing much better than I do. And so I would kind of try on different things that they were doing, and found that they just didn't work for me. What did you do about it? Did did you try the same thing? 

Annemieke Rice  8:03  
Yeah. So this is something I've learned is like, not all feedback is a gift. Like you need to look at the person who's giving you direction and be sure that you want to head in the direction they're heading. 

Leanna McGrath  8:14  
Yeah, that's a really good point. 

Annemieke Rice  8:16  
Technically, being your supervisor or manager does not mean that's who you want to model yourself after. But as a achievement oriented person I wanted to do you know what was expected of me or what was seen as leading to power and achievement in my environment. And so I think a lot of the biggest mistakes I made were following prescriptive advice I was given by don't do that do do this. So one of them was you're moving into your your first management role, and you can't be the captain of the kickball team anymore. I had previously been a connector at the company I I think I always have felt myself to be that way as someone who made folks feel welcome, at least tried to be inclusive, who helped folks feel engaged and connected to work. And so I organized our company's kickball team, I made sure we had things to do together. We were a startup, we were young, we were trying to motivate people to work 12 hours a day, it was helpful to play rock band at the end of that day.

Leanna McGrath  9:19  
For no money!

Speaker 2  9:20  
Right! For the illusion of potential, like big bucks at the end. And that was never really motivating for me, but and I think I had followed some of that advice. And to my detriment, I think it would have been better for me to be authentic in my leadership, but to do that would have required some confidence I didn't have, so if I could have gone back, I would have spent a little more time finding a mentor outside of the company that could give me a little more unbiased advice. Remember that like someone's feedback is just their perspective. It's a reflection of their experience with you. It's not the truth. It's not your reality. It is one one reflection point of your of your way you're showing up. And so I definitely feel like that type of feedback was not super helpful in my decision making at the time.

Leanna McGrath  10:07  
Yeah. As you were talking about that, I was thinking like, what's the worst advice we've ever gotten?

Speaker 2  10:14  
It was well-intentioned advice. I don't think the person absolutely, I think it would work for others. But it wasn't the right advice for me at the time.

Leanna McGrath  10:21  
Well, yeah, because you want to share what has worked for you, right. And so that's what the people around you are doing. It's just that those people aren't you. And they have different strengths, right, and you have different strengths and bring different things to the table. So I remember, I had some, some old school mentalities on the team. And it was like, you always have to have a carrot out in front of them, you know, in terms of employees, and it was like, just this very kind of old school way of thinking. And I was like, ah, I'd rather like just be there, like, right beside them. And, and, or behind them, like encouraging them and cheering them on. Like, I don't want to be holding this carrot out in front of them very like that. But I tried it. And, and I saw some turnover, because it was like, it just, it didn't work for me. And maybe it worked for the other people on their teams. You know, maybe it worked for the sales leader, for example, but just didn't work for me. So when you talked about the being an achievement oriented person and seeing kind of what leads to power, I have so much admiration for the women who came into the workplace when there were no other women at all. And they were just trying to make it in a man's world, right. And so I think that now that we've gone through, we've had a few generations of women in the workforce, I love to see that. Now. I think there's such an opportunity for us to bring ourselves to work because our companies, I think about how much they missed out on because we were, you know, comfortable kind of showing our authentic leadership styles. I don't know about you, but I wasn't always comfortable sharing ideas that were like, complete opposite, right? Like, they're talking about something. And I'm just sitting there thinking, that doesn't make any sense to me. But like, if I say that I'm gonna look like I don't know what's going on, or because it seemed to be that, I don't know that they knew what they were doing. They're so confident about it. 

Annemieke Rice  12:21  
Yep. I think also, just to note that having that experience as a young woman, and it wasn't just being a young woman, it was being a young woman of mostly men with like, either female partners, like in female partner with wives at home, many of whom didn't have jobs or at secondary jobs. So like, the other part of this, for me was role modeling. If you want to be in the boardroom, you need to put this first you need to, nothing else can be important to you, you need to have singular focus on this. And that eventually became like a tension point in my marriage with my husband of is your ambition gonna come before our potential to have a family? And no, absolutely not, I was able and am able to navigate that with different role models in my environment, or that I'm exposed to. But at the time, it really created some self fulfilling prophecies for me of what it looked like to be successful. And I regret like putting that amount of pressure or limitation on myself at that time in my life.

Leanna McGrath  13:17  
Yeah, yeah. If you can look back, and like, call up Annemieke from my 15 years ago, or so, what would you tell her?

Speaker 2  13:28  
Oh, my gosh, you know, I think at this stage of my career, I'm a little bit more in that, like, humility, and how do I, you know, be better for others than I was early in my career stage. So I probably would give myself a few notes on like, where I could have been more supportive and less critical of others. I think one of the things that being a parent gives me is perspective and empathy for folks as full human beings. And that is hard to put forth on a 25 year old who is like, wants to be in a rocket ship and is solely focused on themselves. That wasn't selfish, right? And that selfishness does not translate to being a great team leader. And so I think there's a way to be competitive and inclusive. And that is what I tried to model now, not with perfection. But it's a conscious effort now, and I wish I had done that sooner. Because I think there are some folks along the way I could have brought along for the ride a little bit more effectively if I'd had that mindset.

Leanna McGrath  14:27  
Yeah, I was thinking about whenever you said earlier about how you've always felt like you had something to prove. Every time you went into the boardroom and you go into a leadership meeting. Me too. And I think that the consequence of that is what you just talked about there, right? Because it's like when you're showing up like you have something to prove it you feel like you're starting behind the starting line. And so that's all you're focused on. You can't really focus as much on the people around you or who they are creating connections and really bringing them along for the ride, it's like, I just gotta get to that starting line at least right so that I can go and show that I'm capable and confident here.

Speaker 2  15:09  
Yeah, I think a lot of my career was white knuckling it to the next, the next milestone, and then white knuckling it again, until you get to the point you ran out of juice. And I think the enjoyment of this journey of my career is I have a better ability to see what matters and what doesn't, and make better decisions about where it's worth it to white knuckle it and where it's where it's okay to have a cost or a consequence, and know that it won't change my trajectory, or someone else's, or the businesses. But it's a balance, competitive and compassion, I think it's a balance that is particularly difficult for women to navigate because of the expectations we have of each other, or the models that were given. Talk more about that, you know, the traditional nurturing role model and expectations, but at the same time, the the conditions of traditional business, especially startups that are very, you know, this is what it takes, this is what it takes. And I think that was something I heard and saw a lot and like, that's all well and good in a business book, because you know, I'm absorbing as many advice books as I can at this stage in my life speed reading, everything from all these leadership coaches and gurus and, and then it's like, well, that's not how real businesses are run. And at this point in my career, like, No, I think you can, you can be compassionate and competitive, you can be ethical, and successful, and act with integrity and still, you know, have achievement. And I think that there's like some gender dynamics in some of those choices that if you present a boy, maybe it makes more sense in this case, to slow down that that's a soft, feminine perspective. And I think in that case, I don't even know that I give anyone a chance to hear me say it because I like self censored. I'm going to present that viewpoint because I don't want to be seen as being soft, or feminine, when I'm expecting the environment will and maybe the environment wouldn't have thought less of. And I just thought that it would.

Leanna McGrath  17:04  
Yeah, I think about that all the time about how much better a company's could be. If they had the full women's perspective, right? Like if we actually felt like we could show up in the show our whole selves and share all those things that go through our minds that were like that we talk ourselves out of saying out loud, because we don't want to feel like, oh, I don't know what they'll think of me. I don't know, you know, maybe that's a dumb idea, or whatever, all of those things that we talk ourselves out of theirs. Imagine if we could like pile up all those ideas. Great. It's a goldmine, right? Yeah, I remember hearing a lot. That's just business. Or this is how it's done in business. And if we didn't have the language back then or at least I didn't, but it was kind of like professional gaslighting. We, you know, I would be like, This doesn't seem like it makes much sense. And it was just like, well, that's just how it's done in business. And that was kind of the explanation sometimes. And I was like, okay, so I must be wrong. I guess someone knows. Someone else knows better. Yeah, I guess I just don't know, business that well.

Leanna McGrath  18:12  
I think this is where customer success as a community ended up being a real asset to me as an individual, because there are some great thought leaders in the Customer Success space, who focus on what's right for the customer, and not like tricks to increase your bottom line. So having and I would say this to any leader, like if you can find external, credible voices that back up your perspective that can really help both my own confidence and bringing ideas to the table. And helping say like, this is not a random idea that I have. This is a perspective that's role modeled, and benchmarked and assessed by an industry. Right. And I think the customer success industry is is currently speaking and was speaking at that time in a way that really aligned with my values and made me feel, eventually a sense of belonging in the thought, and thought and point of view that felt right for me. And surprise, surprise, there's just a ton of women in customer success doing that, right. 

Leanna McGrath  19:10  
Yeah. And I think you kind of alluded to what it was like then and kind of what it's like now for you. So can you give me like a quick, like, fast forward through from that time. So you then I know a lot happened between that. But we get to kind of you're starting a family, and you did some career shifting. Can you kind of just walk us through that high level overview, and then I'd love to talk about what it's looking like now?

Speaker 2  19:42  
Yeah, I think I knew that I wanted to have a child and I had gotten to the point in my career where I had a lot of career success and a lot of runway to have more. And yet, I realized that wasn't enough for me and I needed a lot of help. hoped to get pregnant, it ended up being five years and lots of money and doctor's visits and really good medical care to eventually get pregnant and have a child. And a lot of that had to do with the amount of stress I was carrying at that point in my career. And also my own self development, I will acknowledge it wasn't just the job I was in, it was the way that I was bringing myself to that job. And the the choices and the balance that I had my own decision making and daily life, I knew I always wanted to do something that brought value to society as a whole for me. And that, well, I wanted a family that I still felt like I needed to connection to like this broader societal impact. So I thought it was unlikely that I wouldn't want to work. But I was also really open minded to the idea that motherhood would change me or would change my point of view. And so I really was like, I know I want to make a shift in my career at this point, I think parenthood will probably change my perspective. So I want to wait until I'm a parent, and then take a step back and be open to all of the options. And by all the options, I mean, I was open to being a stay at home parent, I was open to working part time, I was open to pursuing a like mission oriented, lower paying job that allowed me to go home and punch out, I was open to going back and being an executive for a company with the right mission and the right culture. And yet that last one was the one I was the most worried about. Because I didn't know if I'd have the self discipline to do that again. And I tried all of them, I try being a stay at home parent after I have my my daughter, it was the pandemic's of being a stay at home parent was almost requirement, we have really generous leave in the state that I live. So I had five months I could take within three months, I was itching, I was missing my sense of self. And so I had negotiate with my husband, like what if I worked part time, you know, like get back in the game a little bit. And then once I ended the part time game, I was like, I'm itching even more like I really, really want to get back into something that I care deeply about. And that is what led me back into a job and career path that I find extremely fulfilling in an environment that I carefully assessed and chose to be one that was compassionate and inclusive. And, you know, big surprise, lots of amazing women in leadership at my company.

Leanna McGrath  22:15  
And I think what I noticed, as you were talking is you talked about how you showed up, and how you worked and your relationship with the company. And and then you said about how you didn't give the environment enough credit. And I think it's really interesting how we high achieving women think that like everything is our responsibility and within our control and our fault. And not to say that we don't have some ownership right over how we show up. We have a lot of owners. I mean, that's that's what we have. But But also, I think it's interesting, I think, as I've been studying more about where all these different ideas come from, and how how every woman and high achieving female executive in America shows up like that, right, that we have this expectation of ourselves that we are fully engaged and that we give our 100% selves to work. That's not a coincidence. That's a product of our environment and social conditioning. And so I think it's interesting, because I'm curious what your thoughts are about it. It's like, we want to have full control over it. But it's it's like up seed is planted it we're kind of working against all of our programming to say, no, no, I'm going to turn off my computer for the night or right like or I'm going to stop here. There's a there's a clear boundary. And I think it's it's really hard for us to put those up, because we've been taught our whole lives that we need to go 100% or nothing. And we need to give our full selves and work hard and show up, right? And so what what are your thoughts about that?

Speaker 2  24:01  
I mean, I don't think I'm any different, or more successful or more stronger than any other woman or person in the workforce, or trying to be part of a family. I think that we're all struggling with some element of this. And at the time, a lot of what I was thinking was what let me just get the next planner, or the next like method of doing my weekly schedule or because I and that's going to solve my problem. And while those things would often like temporarily helped me manage that perfectionism or achievement orientation. It wasn't really until quite honestly that I accepted that I am not perfect and that I have weaknesses and faults and that they're not going away and that that's okay. That I really was able to give myself the grace to stop in certain places and let go. It used to be very difficult for me to hear negative feedback. I ended up spending so much time in my weaknesses and self criticism The only way for me to move forward was to say these things might never change about me. And therefore, I need to be happy in my life as the person that I am, I need to build a life for the person that I am and not constantly be thinking, Well, as I used to before, if I could just become a different person than I am, I would be happier. And, you know, we talked about that in terms of our relationships in terms of the shape of our bodies, in terms of, you know, our talents and our skills. And I think that career change, and motherhood gave me the, like, jarring transition that allowed me to truly be like I am who I am, like, I know my faults. And I don't think I'm any better than anyone who works for me or with me, I don't think I'm better than someone who's a stay at home mom, just because I have a job, I don't think I was lesser than when I wasn't working. And it's just a choice to put my energy somewhere, and I'm going to do that I'm gonna put energy into it. And that's enough. And it didn't end up being a technique or a schedule or workbook or mantra, it ended up being spending some really difficult time with myself accepting that I have real faults, and that they are not going away and that I need to enjoy my life with who I am. Yeah, that you're a human. Yeah. And I think that is what eventually made me I think, a much better leader, my leadership have evolved a lot from that self acceptance as well, because I do not try to change my wings either. We all bring different types of skills and strengths. And I think we should all try to be in environments that bring our strengths to the forefront more often than our weaknesses.

Leanna McGrath  26:34  
I love how you put that. I 100% agree. I think that's what shifted for me as well. Because when I think about like, what's different now that I feel, I can't say that I've let go of perfectionism completely. But I feel like I have a very different relationship with it at this point in my life, where it's like, it still itches me sometimes, but I have the ability to say like, okay, yeah, you're right like that. That's something we want to make sure we do well, and also, I feel okay. If it's not totally perfect, like, this is still really good. And I'm, I'm not, and I'm good with that. And I'm going to accept myself, I'm gonna accept that work, and therefore accept myself for what I've put forward. And I feel good about my contribution, even though it's not perfect, quote, unquote. So I love how you put that I think it's like, we are here living this human experience, we all have one life to live. So if we're just like, killing ourselves to try to make it perfect, that time that we're spending, killing ourselves trying to make it perfect as part of our lives. Right. So I have been thinking about this actually, as I've been writing different podcast episodes, and diving more into this because it's helped me to kind of put words to it. But for you, arriving at this kind of place of, we'll call it, I think the way that I've been terming it lately is acceptance over resistance. So accepting ourselves as we are with all of our faults, rather than resisting our faults and kind of trying to hide them or push them away or deny them. It's just like, hey, you're gonna show up with me too. And that's fine. Getting to that place, though. Like, I think a lot about what is it? Is it therapy? Is it age? Is it becoming a parent? Like, what is it for you?

Annemieke Rice  28:19  
Yeah, I think a few things for me, helped me finally turn the corner in that way. One was, honestly some worst case scenarios happening to me and not being that bad. So I had been, as I said, like white knuckling before this vision of what my life would be, you know, this like, TV Barbie movie, whatever scenario I had in my head, and, and then some of that crumbled, and I couldn't keep it together. And life got better. Better, I life improved. So my physical health improved, I exercised, I my relationship with my husband strengthened, I became a kinder better friend, I had been so focused on this high achievement thing that I really wasn't appreciating a lot of what I had, and it wasn't because I wasn't trying like I was reading all the books about being grateful I was writing down things I was grateful for. I was doing everything I was supposed to do. And I think that's why I'm like, we shouldn't harp on ourselves so much like it was a real shift like a shake up in my environment. I think that becoming a mother the threat of not being able to become a mother and then the gift of being able to become a mother really changed my mindset. And because all my worst case, and some of my worst case scenarios happened and some didn't. The lessons I got from that are one stop worrying. And oh my gosh, no, no one who is worrying can hear that and not like curse at the world. As a former worrier. I stopped worrying now, because nothing ever ended up being as bad as I thought it was going to be. And now I can catch myself and because I have turned the corner and have that IQ experience, my heart and my brain will let go of the worry. And that is maybe an age and experience thing. I think it's also why people who have resilience early in life aren't capable of doing such amazing things and why those who are privileged, maybe struggle a lot more, in certain ways have like this emotional element. And the second thing was that I realized that I could grow and evolve. And so I don't stress I'm like, yeah, in 10 years, I'll feel differently. And that's the beauty of life. And I relish the idea that I'm in a phase, and that that phase will change, and that there is a beauty to every version of myself that will exist. And that is probably an age element, right? It is also probably privileged thing, I have a job I have, I was able to buy a house, I have a lot of basic needs met, that gives me the ability to be content and give myself grace. But for me, it was honestly like the worst case scenario happening and being better.

Leanna McGrath  30:55  
Yeah, it's so true, what we create in our heads is often much worse than then the reality in terms of being in a quote unquote, phase and knowing that you're going to evolve, I think that, for me, that was often in the past a reason to wait, or reason to put something off or hold off until I was quote, unquote, there. And I was reflecting on this recently, and I was thinking like, am I fair? Because I feel like I mean, it took me years to put this podcast out in the world until I felt like it was quote unquote, perfect enough. And it's not perfect at all. It's but it's I get so much great feedback about how it's genuinely enhancing people's lives. And I'm so glad that I finally let go of that and, and just said like, I'm just going to do it because this is where I am now. And in, you know, five years or 10 years, it's going to be different. And then what a great chronicling of my journey that anyone who wants to follow can can follow. And yeah, I think that's such an interesting shift in view. And I think really key, then I'm so glad that you pointed that out, because I think it's really important to not look at it, like, I'm going to be so much wiser in 10 years. So therefore I should put this off, or I should write or wait for that time to do whatever, you know, insert any action here instead, let's do it. And then Yeah, who knows what will happen now it's going to be different than it is in 10 years, and how interesting to see how different it's going to be.

Annemieke Rice  32:35  
I think it's difficult to navigate where to do that, right. So it's like, I'm going to enjoy the life that I've built for myself right now. Because what I want or what I have access to can change. And so it's take out your good silverware, right, like don't put the nice China on the shelf and never use it like open that nice bottle of wine or put on your sparkly outfit for a random Tuesday. But on the other hand, I let go of a lot of pressure on myself. A good example of this is landscaping, my mom is nutty about having a beautiful garden, and I have a nice house with a nice yard. And I probably should air quote, put effort into it. But I keep thinking like I can do that another phase of my life. I do not have to have a beautiful garden right now. Maybe I'll enjoy landscaping in my next decade. And I let go have that pressure that previously I would have put on myself to like get everything in my life, right and yes, and like be achieving on all 10 levels in every phase. And now I actually enjoy looking forward to the time when I might invest in something that I'm okay letting go of now. 

Leanna McGrath  33:33  
Yeah, because there's a cost to having everything in your life quote unquote, right. You don't feel good about it because you don't have any time to breathe or enjoy it. So how is it now for you as a high achieving woman who is I don't know if these are the words you would use but like when you're not focused on achievement in the way that you used to be? Are you still achieving? Do you still feel good about your contributions at work? Like what does that look like now for you? 

Annemieke Rice  34:02  
Yes, I'm like not collecting coins or stickers anymore, I think. I don't know like elder millennial here I'm a sticker chart kid that's look at all the bullets I can put on my resume. Like that's not the way I think of achievement anymore. I definitely think of achievement in terms of how can I help my organization make the right decisions about our growth and how can I amplify the impact of my team by unlocking the potential of some employees who are flying under the radar. Those are not collectibles, they do not show up as stickers they might not ever be bullets in my resume, but I don't less focused on my own power and accolades and more focused on probably my impact. And I also think of achievement at this stage in as I think I'm in a crucial stage of my career to stay open to learning. I don't want at this stage of my career, where I have a lot of credibility and experience to become a rinse and repeat leader like has a methodology that I'm going to use for the next 30 years. I still want to absorb and learn and be open minded. I want to try things differently. And so I actually right now think of achievement as scrapping the way I've done it and role modeling myself after a different leader or learning a new trick, consciously putting myself in an uncomfortable position. Because it's easy to get comfortable once you have power and achievement. And I don't like the way that looks on others later in their generation. And so I'm really, at this stage thinking about staying relevant, staying connected to the modern workforce, and the skills that help current you know, companies and workforces evolve. And I find it extremely joyful, to have a point of view at work of humility, and, and of learning and listening to others. In the end, I love it so much. So I think I enjoy work a lot more than I used to. And I hope that I'm making a great impact. But I'm also open to the idea that like, there might be some feedback points where I need to edit and adjust. And that's not going to be the world if if I need to pivot or I need to change or my organization needs me to go a different direction, that's not gonna be an identity crisis for me.

Leanna McGrath  36:09  
It's not going to be about you, it's going to be about what you're doing, and that's easy to change.

Annemieke Rice  36:14  
And then I also find it an achievement to do this, and still enjoy motherhood. And for as long as I can be in this place of enjoyable balance, being able to show others that they can try for it, I don't think every organization is able to offer what my organization does. So I will put in a caveat that paid parental leave flexible workplace policies, leaders, that role model, taking time off is a necessity, you cannot go at this in an organization that doesn't let you but in an organization that does, I like seeing other parents who do this, of any gender, I like seeing single parents in my workplace. I like seeing folks who devote a lot to a passion project, even if it's not children. And I think that that is in of itself, like an achievement, like trying to make space for others to realize this as possible. And hopefully keep as many women and parents in the workforce giving their benefit of their perspective as we can. 

Leanna McGrath  37:13  
Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you're still achieving, but your measures are different, or the you're setting your own goalposts. Right. For me, as you were talking about that I was thinking enjoyment, I don't know for me lately is like the ultimate achievement like that's, yeah, I just want to enjoy the ride. I mean,

Annemieke Rice  37:32  
I think it's a privilege to do that, though, because I can enjoy the ride because and this is why I'm like, try not to be too critical of my earlier self. And I also try not to assume that my advice is going to work on a former version, or an earlier version of myself, because, you know, I have options in my career, because I got to a certain stage pretty early on you and I both advanced early in our careers. And then we're in companies that were really successful. So that opened a lot of doors for me. Yeah. And there are others that are still trying to knock down doors. And I am not at that stage in my career where I'm trying to knock down doors. I'm trying to walk through the right doorway. And for the most part, I can get through it if I want to.

Leanna McGrath  38:10  
Yeah, and you can choose the doorways. I remember seeing an interview with Oprah once. And someone asked, What advice would you give to your 20 something year old self? And she said my advice would be to relax, slow down. And immediately I thought about would you be where you are today. If your 20 year old self slowed down, I think that there's something to be said for that hustle. And that could we have done things differently right? Along the way, certainly. But that working hard and achievement is what got us to where we are today. So it's hard to...

Annemieke Rice  38:48  
I think, though, why I love that you're doing the podcast. And I love that you do what you do though, is you don't need to go through that alone, even if it's hard. Having a sense of belonging or a sense of community, or recognizing that there are others in the same boat helps even if you're going through times of struggle, and even if even if it doesn't remove the struggle. I feel so much better about my journey and motherhood. Because I see everyone else on my Facebook group or in my group chat or you when I was texting you with like a newborn at home to know that like yes, this week sucks. Like this phase is so hard, and nothing that anyone tells me is going to change that. But it's not me and it is going to pass and I do have people who understand. And that is probably my only real regret about earlier is like I didn't need to go through it alone. I didn't need to feel like it was just me. There was a community out there and if I had tapped in and it's also you know, the job I'm at now we help provide mentorship for college students and it's just the same thing like you are not going through this transition alone. Others have been here. You can feel like you belong you do belong and that is so meaningful just to humans at any phase of their life. 

Leanna McGrath  39:56  
Absolutely. And what I love so much about what you said is it's kind of like how do you accept your own personal imperfection as part of you? I think also accepting the struggle as part of life. It's just part of the human experience. We're on this ride and some days and some phases and some years are going to be amazing, and some are going to be really hard. And I think what makes it harder is our resistance to it. And our, you know, it shouldn't be this way and kind of kicking and screaming, it makes it a lot harder and trying to just claw our way back to the good stuff. Whereas if we just kind of accept all of it as part of not that that's an easy thing to do. That takes I think a lot of I would say, therapy for me is how I got there, but in coaching. But yeah, I think part of the beauty of life is that there are struggles so that we can also enjoy the great stuff, too.

Speaker 2  40:59  
You say therapy, and that actually, I did a lot of therapy in anticipation of my last career transition, and then chatted with a lot of folks going into this job to really, really sure I had support through that time. And that was where like, it was so much easier than I thought it was going to be I am the kind of person that the anticipation of the decision is so much worse than the next steps, because I'm such a planner. But it did help to talk to the therapist because she was like, either of these decisions, or there is no wrong decision. And you don't know what's going to happen. And I was like, Oh my gosh, there is no solution. There is no I can't like grade myself on this. I can't keep assessing it and evaluating it and get better. I just need to live my life and live through it. And the thinking like I put all this time and effort and it never actually changed. The outcome gave me so much relief, because I thought I just need to ride the wave. And like, you know, everyone goes through it, it's gonna be fine. You're gonna figure it out one step at a time. Yeah. And that does help me now. Like this was a bad day, tomorrow might be different, or this was a bad day, and I have some choices in front of me or this is a bad day, and I have someone to call. It's not a permanent state.

Leanna McGrath  42:09  
Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much Annemieke for chatting with me and sharing your wisdom. I love so many of the things that you said. And I always love to hear from other people who I really respect as well. Because I think, you know, it's like when thoughts are swirling around your head. It's nice to hear it in different words than you might be having in your head and but realizing oh, yeah, that that's kind of what I was thinking. And so I think that is the beauty to what you've said a few different times about the importance of community and having other people and other women to connect with and just kind of talk these ideas through because then it's like, yeah, I'm not alone. I'm not alone in these thoughts. And I'm not alone in these experiences. And I think it's validating and also just, it gives us an opportunity for more acceptance, which as we've identified today is so key. So any final thoughts or anything else that you want to share before we break for today?

Speaker 2  43:13  
Gosh, just no one has it figured out like there is no better. There is no person who's better than you. You know, I think it's something I always want folks to hear and finding a person you can be vulnerable with is such a powerful, powerful experience. And I'm so glad you've been that person for me, Leanna

Leanna McGrath  43:31  
Likewise Annemieke, thank you so much! And hopefully we'll come back on the podcast so we can have more chats. Thank you again and thank you so much for everyone for tuning in. And we will see you next week! Bye. 

Leanna McGrath  43:44  
Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai