Powerhouse Executive Moms: Fostering Flexibility and Family-Friendly Culture for Working Parents - with Annemieke, Emily-Rose, and Kate

Annemieke Rice  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:30  

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited because I have a panel of powerhouse women here with me today. And we are going to talk about what it's like to be a remote working mom, executive. And all three of these women, we have all worked together before. And now we're all off on our own at different places. All three of these women are vice presidents at their companies. And they're also moms. And so I want to talk today a little bit about how remote work has impacted their motherhood experience. And also working for companies that support working parents how that has had an impact as well. So we'll go ahead and jump right in. I would love to introduce all of you so we can just each introduce ourselves and tell everybody a little bit about you. 

Kate Griffin  1:28  

Hello, everyone. Thanks for having me. Leanna. My name is Kate Griffin. And I currently work for a consulting management firm, focused in technology on all things post sale. So we provide strategic consultation as well as delivery services for some of our technology partners. I am a mom of three I have a 13 year old daughter and I have twins that are eight. The last time I did a podcast with you, I almost said the wrong age. So I've got it right this time I practice but yes, I have twins that are eight. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:04  

Love it.

Kate Griffin  2:05  

And they definitely keep me busy. And I'm located in Buffalo, New York.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:09  

Awesome. Thanks, Kate. Emily-Rose.

Emily-Rose Barry  2:12  

Hello, nice to see you again. Thanks for inviting me. I'm also excited about this powerhouse panel. I'm Emily-Rose Barry. I am Vice President of Product at an education technology company. We work in K 12 Education supporting student success. I live in Buffalo, New York also. And I have two boys, a eight year old and a six year old. See Kate I almost forgot mine too. Which is funny because Kate and I were actually pregnant with our eight year olds at the same time. So I should have remembered that.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:51  

I remember that from Kate's episode. Yes. One thing I should mention is that all three of our panelists have been on the podcast before so you can go back and listen to their individual episodes to hear more about their stories. Also, I want to note that Emily-Rose is currently recording from her closet, because her kids are on spring break. And it's the only quiet place in the house. And so we decided this was the perfect location for this episode. Annemieke.

Annemieke Rice  3:23  

Hi, everyone. I'm Annemieke. And I think I'll say first my one kid who is two and a quarter, which means it's easy for me to remember her age. So pros of being a parent with one child, I still know where she is at in months, not just years. I know that's a temporary advantage at this stage of motherhood. I have a daughter named Inneke, I live in the Boston area with my husband. And I am the CES exec, the customer success executive at an really awesome small, higher education and technology startup that I joined shortly after I had my daughter. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:57  

All right, awesome. Well, so great to have all of you here. And I can't wait for y'all to hear more from these three women. So I want to start off by hearing a little bit about what is your working situation? Have you always worked remotely as a parent and kind of you know, at what point in your career and in your kids ages? Did you transition into remote and then kind of like, how has that impacted how you're able to show up as a parent how or just to kind of your overall experience?

Kate Griffin  4:29  

I had the experience Leanna of, I mentioned this a little bit in our previous podcast that we did, but I definitely have a pre remote and post remote experience. When I got started in tech, I had a daughter who, well my daughter, was three at the time, which seems crazy to think back since that was 10 years ago, over 10 years ago. Maybe she was two when I got started at that company and it's just completely different experiences. And really I was at I still worked, you know, in an office when I had the twins as well. So it was a challenge, I will, I will say that of being a mom and going into the office and having the three of them, I didn't have the flexibility that I have now. And that was really challenging being a new mom, and not having a ton of people that were around me that were in the same phase of life. And so I think about those days, though, of just getting ready in the morning, getting the kids ready, dropping them off at grandma's dropping them off at daycare, getting downtown, parking, walking through the snow to the office, hoping to get to my 9:30am meeting on time. And then you know, staying in the office till five, I was definitely not a person that was in there in the office super late. But still, if you think about it now, leave the office by five, travel to your car, travel through traffic get home, was probably six by the time I walked in the door. And there are times now where Lucy she's one of my twins who's 8, she'll say, Mom, remember when you were always late getting to the dinner table. That never happens anymore. Makes me feel really guilty that she remembers that. But I also remember being so proud of myself that I got home and I was there and I have a wonderful husband that is, cooks dinner and does laundry and all of those things, we definitely have a shared house responsibilities. And we always have and I was always thankful for that. 

Kate Griffin  4:37  

But now I don't you know, that's not my experience, I make my coffee in the morning, I get snuggle time I get them ready, my 13 year old does not let me snuggle her unfortunately anymore. But we get ready together, I see them get on the bus, I drive them to before school activities, I can pick them up if I want to. And that just wasn't a part of my free remote working situation. And it is now so it's hard for me to look back at that. And think about you know the differences because I just could never go back to that now that I've experienced it the way that I have now. And I have kids that are at very different ages and experiences. My middle schooler and my two in third grade, they have different needs. And I feel like I can flex my time and be there for them and where they are and their growth and development and still have really great quality time with them. 

Emily-Rose Barry  7:51  

You know, it's funny, because it's good that Kate went first of the three of us, Kate was a mom first she was a working mom first. So I feel like she was the exemplar, at least for me, I don't want to speak for Annemieke, but I as I mentioned earlier, I had my first child at the same time that Kate was having her twins, we were working in the same office also. So we were both kind of this was pre remote world working from the office. And it's really interesting to hear your behind the scenes, Kate, of that time, because you really made it look like you had it all together. And after I had my first I had a pretty big struggle with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. And when I came back to work, I was having such a hard time with all of that. And I remember saying to Kate, how do you literally look good every day? Like I don't understand? How do you get here? How do you have outfits that match? Like you're always you're always on top of it, you have everything together, and I feel like I'm never gonna get there. It was really, really hard for me to figure out how to fit parenting into my life given when you're going to the office, all the things you talked about, Kate. There's so much that needs to happen before that first 9am meeting to make sure everything is in the right spot that I just I had a lot of trouble with. 

Emily-Rose Barry  7:51  

So my experience of shifting to remote parenthood was after I had my second. I mean it was it was the shift that pretty much all of us hit like that little that little COVID-19 thing. Do you remember that? I was working in the office, COVID hit. I remember the week that things were starting to look really bad in the news. One of the HR reps in our office kind of was walking around to everyone and saying hey, I think we're gonna have to start moving working from home just want to make sure you have all the equipment you need, how are you feeling about things? And I looked at her and I said I will be fine as long as this is exactly one week, like I cannot be home working for more than one week, it was impossible for me to imagine, mostly because at the time, we had this tiny house, it was like 900 square feet, it had three rooms. I had, I'm pretty sure a one year old and a three year old. And I just knew it was chaos in that place. There was no way I was going to be able to swing working from there for longer than a week. Well cut to three months later, literally my working spot was not much better than this closet I'm joining you from right now. I literally had like a bed table. And I sat at the end of my bed, cross legged, every single day all day with my toddler on the other side of the door, knocking on it saying, I don't understand, you're here, but you're not here. Why aren't you out here playing with me? It was really, really difficult. 

Emily-Rose Barry  10:58  

And I've been remote ever since then I remember the transition being really tough. But once I got on the other side of that, we moved, we got a house that had a lot more space, so I could have a dedicated office space. I really resonate with a lot of what you said, Kate, I truly don't understand how I did it before. I picture those days, I look at the schedule, I see myself going through the motions of making sure that childcare is arranged, driving them where they need to go bringing all the accessories, oh my god, the accessories, there were so many accessories. And then driving to work, the walking the commuting, the phone calls in the middle of the day that someone might have a stomachache, or Mrs. Mom or. And then on top of that I really tried to address my own kind of postpartum depression and anxiety challenges by creating space for me to take care of myself. I am a firm believer in that, you know, if your cup is not full, you can't fill anyone else's cup thing. And so I was trying to make sure I got to the gym after work, I spent some time exercising dealing with my own mental health. But that meant I wasn't getting home until like seven o'clock some day. I mean, it was just in time to eat dinner, see my kids and put them to bed. And I didn't realize how much time I was missing with them until I really embraced the remote work life, which I was not willing to do at first. But once I kind of leaned into it, I recognized those extra minutes in the morning, the ability to be at the bus stop getting them on the bus, to be present in the house as soon as they get off the bus, to always be right around the corner should anything happen, you know, the nurse calls, someone needs to be picked up. I really, really appreciate it. I don't know that it's 100% something that can only be limited to remote work. And I know that's something that you want to touch on today, Leanna, is talking about why so many companies are set up so that unless you're working remotely, there's no way to have that balance. I think that's an interesting thing that we can talk about. But it's certainly something that is a lot easier to maintain when you're working from home.

Annemieke Rice  13:17  

As you mentioned, I'm the last to become a parent. But I also worked so closely with both of you when you were pregnant and when you had little ones. And at the time I knew I wanted to be a parent I was struggling with fertility, which was something that like both Kate and Emily-Rose were great supporters to me around and I would look at. I mean easily Kate and Emily-Rose were like the most competent performant employees on the team. And there were very few parents in the organization at the time. They were totally killing it at work. They had great instincts, they were efficient and decisive and confident. And I could also see how much else they were carrying. And I remember Kate telling me once about like, the life she lived before she showed up for that like 9am meeting like have you gotten your coffee? Is your day started? She's like, Annemieke, I have been up since six o'clock. I've gotten three kids dressed drop off like this is not the morning for me anymore. I think that was it was really good for me to see that before I became a parent and yet there's a lot of being a parent now where I'm like, Oh my gosh, I could have been so much better as a support system. If I knew what I knew now, then I understood just how impossible it seems sometimes but I had been working with wrote for many years before I became a mom. 

Annemieke Rice  13:36  

I, to a degree, started working remote in order to try become a parent. I was really struggling to get pregnant and a lot of stress at work. And I needed to like reduce my stress and we moved and started working remotely and I still did not reduce my stress to be completely honest at all until I like change jobs. And so I had been working at home with my husband for years and years and years before the pandemic. And when I got pregnant with my daughter, we decided that I'd stay home for a few extra months because it was COVID. And we were trying to cobble together the first year of daycare without having to go to a daycare facility because they were so unreliable or even impossible to get into at that time. And when I finally decided to go back to work full time, which is around when my daughter was 10 months old, my husband was very concerned about how much I would work, I have always been like a really high achieving person. And I would work 7am to 9am, and then 9am to 5pm, and then 5pm to 7pm again, and especially in the field, I mean, it's like eight hours of meetings straight every day. And he was really concerned about balancing that with being a parent and a mom. And the reality was that being a mom created these really, really hard boundaries, like you have to get your ass in the car for pickup at four o'clock, because you have to get there by 430. And it really helps me become a better working from home person in general. And yet at the same time, I was like, I don't know how anybody I kept saying everyday, I don't know how anybody does this without two parents, backup care, the ability to afford daycare full time, the ability to call in sick at your workplace. 

Annemieke Rice  16:15  

My, when I first started the job I'm at now, my daughter started daycare the second week, because we had to wait two months to get her into a daycare. And even then it was like a blessing that we finally got a slot. And she was homesick 50% of the days my first three months of work in my executive position at this company. 50% of the days. And my mom stepped up and did a lot of them. And my husband and I tried to split the others. But it still meant that like I was absent from work or unreliable at work so much in my first three months, I was sick and I was struggling. And I remember thinking like how simply do this will this never end. She had tubes put on her ears, we cleared that particular boundary. And things have gotten so much better since but I was struggling so much at that time. Even though I was working from home, even though I had resources to help me financially, even though I had support. And so there's so much of that time where I'm like, I would have lost my job like I don't even know if I would have still been employed if I had to go into an office. And this is my reality. 

Annemieke Rice  17:18  

And I think one of the benefits of working remotely as a parent post COVID is that, what I perceived in my company culture is because everyone had to be at home with their kids for a while, there's just so much more acceptance of the realities of parenting bleeding into working. Everyone's used to the kid coming on the conference call, or being you know, being locked in the closet because your kids are home on spring break. And so there was just so much more open communication, and visibility from other executives, which frankly, I had not had before I have mostly worked when someone was a parent aside, honestly, from the two women on this call, most of the time, it was a man with a stay at home partner at home, and they would go to a piano recital or they would do pickup but they were never at home sick when their kids were home sick. They were never, you know, the daily care provider. And so the reality is that I am laying on my husband, I split everything 5050. And I just can't imagine to be able to do it without working remotely, we generally are totally focused on the kid from wake up to start to the day and then totally focused on her from the time she comes home to bedtime. So the realities is it's you know, 5:30 to 7:30 with no moment to yourself. But I have been trying to do a little bit more of what Emily-Rose talked about, like working in the workouts or getting in, Kate's really great about walking during meetings and trying to fit those things in as well. But I think I don't think I would ever change like at this phase of life. Maybe later when I have older kids I'll feel differently. But at this phase of life, this feels like the only way to feel fully engaged in my work and fully present and like I can do a really great job and enjoy it and not hold myself back. Or like do less than I'm capable of, but also feel really proud of who I am as a mom.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  19:02  

There are so many things I want to jump into, from what all of you said. I think it's really interesting what you talked about Annemieke about whenever we are leaders of organizations, especially in male dominated industries, we have seen the leaders at the top like they can work all the time, because generally they're men with stay at home partners who do the sick time and do all the pickups and all of the things that they don't have to worry about. And so whenever we get into those positions, I think a lot of times we have this like extra layer of guilt, of shame, of I'm not showing up like I should be, I should be able to show up more I'm unreliable because you know, I'm constantly having to take care of a sick kid. And the reality is even if we have a 50/50 partner, that's still a lot of time especially, you know, if our child's making a transition to a daycare facility, that we're going to have to miss work. It's just the reality of the situation like there's no way around it, especially if we don't have family nearby. So I think that's something that is so important for us to recognize that like we're holding ourselves to an unrealistic standard of someone having full time childcare that doesn't go away whenever the kid is sick. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:20  

Something else that I thought was interesting. So Emily-Rose, whenever you talked about, like, comparing yourself to Kate, and how, like, how do you even get yourself together? That kind of thing. I actually thought, I wonder if it changes now that we're remote, and we're not like seeing each other in person every day? Is that comparison reduced? Does that go down, and therefore we feel less of that kind of like, Oh, I'm not doing a good enough job. Because we're not seeing it every day. I don't know. I think that might be interesting to explore. I remember when I was working full time, some of my team members who were planning to be parents, you know, later, were like, I hope I can do it like you, Leanna. And I'm like, What are you talking about? I don't know what the hell I'm doing. But thank you. So I think that's interesting. I wonder if that actually kind of helps our mental health because we don't see it, like every day someone showing up at work with a matching outfit and looking so put together. And you know, we're thinking like, ah, am I not doing a good enough job? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  21:22  

And then the final thing that I want to dive a little bit more into is this idea of when we are working remotely, and we have a company that supports us, we'll talk a little bit more about the company culture, but I'm wondering for you like, how do you feel about how you show up to work and how you show up to your family? How do you feel about that contribution, because the reason I started this podcast, and the very first episode was called Why Working Moms Feel Like We're Failing at Everything. Because I think that whenever you know, we're working, and we're holding ourselves to these crazy high standards of being the most amazing mom and this amazing executive, we then just feel like we're constantly failing. And I just am curious about how you feel about that, like, how do you feel about your contribution to the workplace, how you're able to show up, and also how you're able to show up in motherhood?

Emily-Rose Barry  22:20  

I have a thought on that. I had a kind of visceral reaction to that question. Because I think this is timely, it's something I'm struggling with to be perfectly transparent. I think that I worry that my overall level of stress and fatigue with the number of things that I'm balancing between work and home, does put me in a spot where I am like, in a way failing at both. And people like us might need to redefine what failure is because I think we have a bunch of high achieving perfectionists on the line here, who maybe have standards for ourselves that are a little bit too high and not necessarily sustainable. But it does feel like when you're a someone who wants to be doing super well and bringing 100% and solving all the problems all the time, having a job with a lot of responsibility, and the extreme amount of responsibility of parenting at all phases of life happening all the time, and the code switching that happens between those two things, like the end of every day does feel quite heavy. It feels a little bit like just that fatigue, and the feeling of I don't have it in me to be at the top of my game and all of these things all the time is real. That's a real thing that I have experienced. And I unfortunately don't have the answers. Does anyone else have the answers? If you have them? Will you share them? 

Kate Griffin  24:00  

I have no answers, Emily Rose.

Emily-Rose Barry  24:03  

Darn it.

Kate Griffin  24:04  

Besides come over and have a glass of wine and sit in my driveway. And we can talk.

Emily-Rose Barry  24:10  

My favorite activity. 

Kate Griffin  24:11  

That's all. Favorite activity. You just described this roller coaster and I often think about my days of I feel really great in the morning, can get up, get the kids ready, do all of the things get to my early logged in start working on stuff and then it's like meetings happen and it's this ball that grows, and then the kids come home and I always call it witching hour and I, because things get loud. I don't have a separate space for my office. It's in our back family room. And there is you can see I have this door behind me that goes to a garage and so especially when it's nice out, the kids are like opening, slamming, Mom, I'm going for a bike ride, Mom, I'm doing this, and it's just feels like it builds this tension towards the end of the day. And at some point, I have to end the day and then do this shift of, I need to walk away with work, I need to focus my time on family and me and all of that stuff. And sometimes just by way of schedules, like, my son has swim practice at the Y and I'm gonna get a workout in. And often those days feel better for that transition, because I have activities that actually force me to make this flip. But I have recently been thinking more and more about this of, and I think it's a little bit with my daughter being 13. And I was just saying to my husband, like, we only have five more summers with her, and then she's going to be at college. That is insane to think about and wanting to make sure that I'm prioritizing as much time as I can to be with them, which is going to be this shift of like just a different milestone, right for her and getting older, and which is a lot different than having younger kids. 

Kate Griffin  26:11  

So all that to say, I feel like I'm, I've really been trying to say like, this is my job, and I really love my career. And I think I'm pretty good at it. But it also is my job and my career, the most important thing is me and my family and being there for my kids. And so that's my compass. And I feel like in my mind, I have to keep thinking of that. If I get off of a meeting, and I'm not happy about it at the end of the day, like nobody has died like nobody has, there really is not a big emergency. It just is a meeting that went in a different direction. We'll eventually figure it out, we'll have a awkward conversation, and we'll get back on track. But there's nothing that was threatening my family or my life. And I feel like that perspective has helped me. This is not the answer Emily-Rose, but it just has helped me in just trying to cope through those scenarios of, I can only control so much. And there are aspects of my work my job I can't control. So what can I control? What can I focus on? It may be that I'm like, I'm I'm focusing on this and my family today, and I'm gonna leave this work thing, work itself out and come back to it. So I'm still playing around with that in my head. I feel like I have good days and bad days with that strategy. But I do feel because I'm getting into this a middle schooler, my kids getting in the last years of elementary school that that like, I don't know, it's not a midlife crisis. But it is. But it's just really starting to hit me lately of I only have so many years left with them. And it's not like they're going away after college. But I just want to make the most of those. And that's the most important thing. Work is still very important to me. And I love it. And I'm so dedicated to it. But it's not the top priority.

Emily-Rose Barry  28:08  

Not us realizing we're having a midlife crisis in this podcast. 

Kate Griffin  28:12  

It's what it is, isn't it? Yeah, it's happening.

Annemieke Rice  28:15  

I um, I had my daughter at 39, which is like a pretty later stage, initial parenting, and so much of that is hard, like, oh my gosh, my body has such a harder time with this than it probably would have a decade ago. And recovery was really tough. But I know who I am. I know the things that are unpleasant about me. And I know what I'm capable of. And I have just like a quieter confidence and either acceptance of the things about me that maybe don't serve me well at certain times, but I'm okay with or knowledge that I can do hard things if I want to. And, and I think that has helped me a lot. So I feel like there's a couple of things about how do how do I feel about doing it all not failing. One is there's a lot of things that I got to do before I was a parent that I'm okay not doing anymore. I used to care about the decorations in my house and going on really interesting travel and having fancy dinners. I, the only place I eat out is the Fuddruckers around the corner because my cake can run around and like I just have given up on that part of thing. I've I feel satiated by the experience I've had before. And I know that my life is long and I will have a chance to go out to fancy dinners again in my life and I don't need them right now. And so I think something that I have allowed myself to do is to let go of things knowing that it's not a permanent goodbye. My yard is a mess. I will probably have a green thumb in my 50s I don't know I don't need to have it right now. It's not important. It doesn't have to happen right now. And that has really allowed me to just focus on the things that truly make me feel good in my day and not the things I feel like I'm supposed to do, or should make me feel good. And I've just laser focused on the like three things that make me feel good. And when I feel like crap, I get up early and go for a walk in the woods. Even if my day looks like a nightmare, I never deprioritize that without those 15 minutes crunching through leaves by myself, or with my mom and her dog. And I never would have made that choice before. And so I think I've gotten a lot better at knowing that and knowing that I'm in control of that. 

Annemieke Rice  30:29  

The second thing I would say, though, is I am roughly the same person I was in that working in past employers, I have roughly the same skills that I used to, but my environment is so much more supportive of me as a person. And so when I hear talented, bright, compassionate, hardworking women struggle day after day in their work environment, I'm like, there are better places to be. There honestly are. And maybe it's not that your current work environment is bad for everybody, but it's just not right for you right now. You don't need to expect less of yourself, you don't need to say, well, maybe I can't handle it at this level, it's probably not you, it's probably that environment there. There might be an environment that is better for you. Because I don't have to convince myself or talk track myself 8000 times a day to let go of things because my environment does not create as much friction on a daily basis, as other environments would for me. And I think unfortunately, the job market is really tough in the field that Kate and Emily-Rose and I are in right now. So it's not that easy for people to find a new home for their career. But when I chat with friends who are mothers, I'm often like, you can take your talents elsewhere. Like I'm not saying everyone should quit their jobs. But you only have this one time in life. And it's okay to go somewhere for these next five years and then do something else after that. You don't have to bow out of the whole thing because it's really hard at the place you're at. And you don't have to judge yourself or criticize yourself for not being able to handle it, when it's possible that could be a little bit easier on you. Whether that's moving to a remote environment, or working in a culture that has more authenticity around bring your whole self to work and still knocking out the park. I think that is a hard balance to find, a company that's competitive and wants to win and is achievement oriented. And I think all three of us are in startups. So like that's the sort of vibe like to you only survive if you win, there's no like coasting. But also to recognize that you don't have to keep apologizing or making up for the realities of life. 

Annemieke Rice  32:07  

For me, the place I feel the most inadequate is in parenting. I have these phases not like that I'm showing up as a parent because I am prioritizing time with my daughter. But I'm like, I feel like you need a graduate degree to know what to do in this situation. Like, I could go to work and solve the most complicated client issues, or financial accounting math or anything, but you try to tell me how the f I'm gonna get this diaper on this kid. I have I'm at a loss, I have no ideas. So I think it's just such an interesting dynamic to feel like so completely incompetent in the face of a two year old, and then feel so comfortable in my skin leading a division at a company. And it does make honestly it makes work easier sometimes that I'm like, this isn't even the hardest thing I'm going to do today, the hardest thing I'm going to do today is get the rain boots off before we go to bed. 

Emily-Rose Barry  33:28  

The Parenting challenges are never ending and always changing. I remember when I was pregnant with my first I don't remember who it was. And I wish I could give them credit because this is the best thing anyone ever told me about parenting. And I say it all the time. They said just know everything is a phase, absolutely everything. And that includes the good times, so you don't get to rest on your laurels. And that has 100% been the case like when things are difficult, you at least get to say okay, this will be over soon, and then something brand new will hit. That's probably the biggest difference between parenting and work is like when you've built up a career, especially in kind of one vertical or one industry where like you get to know it really, really well. And the things that come up that would have scared the crap out of you eight years ago, you're like, Oh, I know how to handle this right. Been there done that seen it before. Have the playbook. But kids, there's no playbook, which I know Kate can relate to with a 13 year old. 

Emily-Rose Barry  34:31  

I think you bring up a lot of really good points Annemieke about making sure that you are in an environment that works for you and genuinely has the flexibility and the support that you can bring your whole self to work and be honest about what you're going through and what you need. But I have also found for me, in particular, that that has to be a dialogue and a two way relationship. So I'm someone who really likes to put on the front that like, I've got it, even if I totally do not got it in any way, shape or form. And I have found that I have to be a little bit vulnerable at times and say, Hey, I'm not caring for myself in the way I need to, like the environment allows me, for example, in my current job, we have unrestricted PTO. Guess how much time I take off, that would be zero days, zero hours, right? We have unrestricted PTO, we have total flexibility to, you know, do whatever we need to do, you have an appointment, put it on your calendar, I still try and schedule as much as I can outside of work hours, right? Like, I just don't want to be the person who quote needs that type of accommodation. But I had a little bit of a reality check a month or two ago, where I had a real moment of stress that came out with physical symptoms, and I could not ignore it. And I looked at my own behavior patterns. And I said, Okay, so I'm not getting time to exercise, I'm not going for walks anymore, because my schedule doesn't accommodate it. I'm not eating three times a day, like the basics. I'm not drinking water. I'm getting to that point at four o'clock every day where I'm so thirsty, I feel like I'm going to die, because oops, I didn't have a single sip all day, right. And that's all me, like, those are boundaries that I need to set. And if I can't take that for myself, there's no work environment that's going to do it for me. And luckily, I work with some really incredible people that, you know, if I said, Hey, accountability, I need to be eating every day, I need to be going for a walk, I'm going to be taking this time. And if you see me starting to, you know, string out, please check in with me and tell me and like, I've got a CEO who I show up eating in a meeting and she's like Emily-Rose is eating, we love to see it, you know, like, like, Please I'm gonna cheer you on to do the things that you need to do to take care of yourself. But that is a responsibility that's on me, too, right? I'm the only one who decides to keep my computer open after hours, I'm the only one who decides to take on more work that I can do. And that is a big realization I've come to recently that I'm really trying to adjust with, you know, middling levels of success.

Annemieke Rice  37:34  

Your CEO example reminds me I have an amazing CEO. She just recently got promoted as the first female CEO in our company. And I'm a huge fan. And I similarly had this like, health episode maybe related to like being a little exhausted. And she was like, Is this, how is your pace and we've like, really picked up the pace in a great way, achieving a lot at work, or we're both really excited about it. She's like, I do like a fast pace. But I also like a long road long runway, like I want to work together for a long time. So we need both of those things to be true. We need to be velocity but longevity here. And that ability to have that honest conversation with someone without worrying that they're going to like coddle you. Like I think sometimes that vulnerable, like, well, maybe they will invite me to that project, or they won't depend on me for some important strategic initiative or I won't be given the growth opportunity if I like. I don't know, I don't know that I'm consciously thinking that. But I think it is a subconscious thing of like, not not having anyone set limitations on me. But I think the vulnerability can pay off when the person in that dialogue is worthy of it, which not everyone is worthy of our vulnerability. But hopefully the person we're working for is.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:51  

One thing I was thinking about in relation to that the other day Annemieke was that I think we start out our careers as like high achieving workaholics, at a sprint pace, right, like in our 20s were like going at a sprint pace. And then at some point, we realized, like, Oh, this is a marathon. I just can't keep up this pace, right? Like, it's not physically sustainable for me to do if I want to stay healthy, and like and make it through the marathon at this pace, and so I think that sometimes what happens is we adjust our pace, and then we're like judging ourselves because we're comparing ourselves to the sprinter. But the sprinter didn't realize it was a marathon because I don't know I thought life ended at like 30. So now that we realize like, Oh, this is actually a marathon we can think about it differently and and approach it differently of like, you know, maybe taking today off or maybe closing my laptop at five o'clock gives me the ability for the longevity, and also maybe even the velocity right or like a rest that I need to keep up on my pace. But also for kind of that long run.

Kate Griffin  40:09  

Both Emily-Rose and Annemieke had talked about the flexibility, Emily-Rose a little bit more about like, it's a two way street. And I think in our the industries that we're in, there is a ton of flexibility in these roles an in companies. And I think there's a lot of companies out there that do have this culture of take time when you need it, when you want it and all of that, but it does take you making the decision to take it. And I just had this conversation with an individual that's on my team. And an individual that actually struggles with this have we have, I actually always have to say you should take time off, you should take the Friday afternoon off, you should go for a walk, do you want to walk on our meeting? And it's just getting them to see like, this is important for you to take time off. And I can see when they start to get burned out, which is, I think a little bit of what you were explaining Emily-Rose, I see the same pattern in this individual. And their mom was going through a medical thing recently, and we were taking a walking meeting, they said oh, my mom isn't gonna be able to get in for this surgery for two weeks. And I said, that's such great perspective. We shouldn't be complaining that we can't get a meeting with a customer in two weeks. That's such a little thing. Your mom can't get in for her surgery for two weeks, it's life or death. So let's just think with that perspective, and you should take the time off to be with her. Don't ask me about it. Just tell me you don't have to ask for my permission. I don't want that to be the culture that we have. So I say that because I think in our industry there, there needs to be more dialogues like that, like, how do you do that? Because if you're not equipped with the skill set, or the mindset to take the time to put the boundary up, you easily can get gobbled up into the marathon run is your noting Leanna, and you know, be done at the end of it and completely, completely burnt out. 

Kate Griffin  42:17  

The other thing that I wanted to bring up is both Emily-Rose and Annemieke have stated like women leadership and in my center is a little bit different. I have two male leaders in a very, very small company. And it has been such a great experience. And I have learned so much from both of them. But what I've learned a lot from is that they are both great examples of being a leader but also being present for their family and for their partners. One of my leaders, you know, they have a time block on their calendar. And I went to schedule something over it. And he said, Oh, actually, this is when I walk my daughter to school every morning, I can call you if it's something important. But this is when I walk her to schoo. I said, Oh, no, that's fine. And another time, like, you know, he'll call me from the car and his daughter is in the car and we chit chat over the audio in the car or my other boss will take you know all the time they need to take time off to go to track meets to be there to have them be present. So I just really value that. And there have been times it has been such a rough year for tech. There has been times this year where I've definitely gotten a little scared of oh my gosh, am I gonna have to start looking for a job? And it's not the looking for a job. It's will I ever find this again? This is awesome. And I'm so thankful for it. And it's something that I come back to that to think of on days where things get frustrated, like no, this is a good thing. I don't want to leave this experience because it's wonderful. And I hope that I get to continue to experience it. But I feel like if I ever were to go into a different position, I feel like I have I know what I want. And I know how I would approach it. Like that's my lessons learned that I have now of like, I know what I need, I know what I want. And I know how to manage my day to day and I'll know if it's the right fit.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:20  

Yeah. Yeah, I think what you're bringing up Kate that is so important. And we've kind of touched on it in different spots of our conversation is just about the company culture and the leaders at the top and how they make sure that this happens. So like Emily-Rose talked about, that her CEO is helping her to stay accountable for taking care of herself and eating. And Annemieke talked about that her CEO is talking about, you know having conversations with her about pace, and you're talking about that your leaders are leading by example and prioritizing family at certain times during the workday where it makes sense to do so. So I'm curious to hear from you all, how do you feel that that culture impacts your experience? And also, what specific things can you point to that you say like, this is the culture that is supportive of me, because to Annemieke's point earlier, I do believe that these companies, these kinds of cultures exist that support working parents. And I do believe that for people who are not in those cultures, because there are also plenty of companies that do not have this kind of culture, we've all worked in them. So I want to encourage people to find those companies that do have those cultures. And I think, you know, it's like having an abundance mindset of knowing, like trusting that it exists, and trusting that we can find it, and not staying stuck in a situation that doesn't work for us in this season. To Annemieke's point earlier, we don't have to think of it in an all or nothing kind of way like our brains tend to want to do, it's not like we're giving up our career, or we're giving up this company, it's just that maybe for this season of our lives, we're prioritizing different things. So I'm curious about the cultures at your companies, and just kind of how it has impacted your experience as a working parent.

Emily-Rose Barry  46:20  

I have one concrete example that is kind of small, but has been a game changer for me, which is not asking for or requesting time off. And simply taking time off and informing when you will be taking time off, you know, doing all the right things, making sure people know, making sure you have backup plans, you know, get your things in order beforehand, all of that stuff, which you know, any competent employee is going to do. But when you talked about that conversation with your employee, Kate, that really made me think of like, that is such a small thing that really, it's a metaphor for a lot more. If you are working at a company where I've heard about this, this, this has been a hot topic with unrestricted PTO, because I know a lot of people who work in different companies that have different versions of this same thing. In my company unrestricted PTO is is truly just you take off the time when you need the time. And if you are not meeting expectations with your job performance, that's going to come out in a lot of other ways that are not you going to the hospital when your mother needs you, you know. So like, let's not worry about that the performance takes care of itself. But in terms of needing the flexibility to take the time off when you need it, you just take it and you don't even need to tell us why you know, versus some people I know who work in companies that like technically, I'm using air quotes right now have this unrestricted PTO policy, but you have to request it, you have to request it in advance, you have to have a good reason. And somebody can tell you no. And also, we're tracking it. And we're gonna let you know if you're taking too much. I think that those are two completely different vibes on a concept that on paper and on a job application, and on a career page of a website probably looks exactly the same. But it's worth asking about in an interview process, I would say. Right, so if you see that you're interviewing at a company that has unrestricted PTO, great, that sounds good. Tell me how that works in real life, you know, what, what does that look like in terms of taking time off when you need it. And that will give you a sense, I think of if the values of the company align with what you're looking for, very early on, right, before you even get into the job.

Annemieke Rice  48:46  

I think something I'm aware of is not placing too much responsibility on middle managers to be everything that individual employees need, in terms of caretaking at work. So to me, I at this stage of my career, I'm a little bit more into formalization of policies that employees can access with or without a managers permission, like it shouldn't be up. It's actually why I go back and forth on ownership to PTO, like you should be allowed to take the days you need to take without having to convince someone else that you need to take them. So how it's implemented is there but you can't change your company's PTO policy if you are the director of support or you know what I mean, like the the head of one engineering team. So I think that at the top thing for me is like are the policies, like as individual employees, you can access all of these things, no questions asked to adegree, parental leave time, part time, whatever benefits need to be there. 

Annemieke Rice  49:44  

I think role modeling and presence of others handling something is helpful because there's less questioning of like, is this normal? Would I if I did this, would I be pushing too far culturally? And so I think for me, it's helped that, at least in my company, there's like a smattering of people who are caregivers at different stages. And so you can see folks who are caregiving for older parents or caregiving for their children. If anything, I'm probably worried that our culture is like too family oriented and try not to like rest the burden on people who just chose not to, or have not yet had children. Because it's not appropriate either. It shouldn't be that they take the meeting, instead of go to yoga class, because I have to go to daycare pickup. So like those boundaries shouldn't be because you're a parent, they should just be because you're a human. You shouldn't have to, for instance, explain why you're taking time off, I do not want you to fill out the thing that tells me why you're if you want to tell me you're going on vacation, because you want to share with me great, but you don't need to explain to me, or rationalize to me that it's a worthwhile reason for you to step away from work, that's your choice, you get to decide. 

Annemieke Rice  50:50  

I think that from a culture perspective, there are a couple of things that aren't specific to parenting that I feel like make it easier for me to thrive as someone with a multitude of responsibilities. And those are a focus on impact over effort. And trust between and among leaders. I've been in a lot of companies where the amount of work you do to like validate your decision-making or report up on your progress can be the things that end up with you on your laptop at 8pm. And I got to prepare this report for so and so. I will often say to my boss, like I can spend four hours with the client, or I can spend four hours reporting out on what's going on, like, what is the visibility we actually need? And how do we make that a 15 minute activity instead of something quite frankly, I would have spent a weekend on in my previous career? And I think that like trust and impact focus makes a huge difference in just using our time to still really get a lot done and succeed as a company but not have all these extra hours on things that are maybe less high value activities. 

Annemieke Rice  51:53  

Last thing I'll say is I'm just very aware of the fact that as a leader, I have a lot more control over my work life than people who work at different levels of the company. And I think there's just a recognition that there's more vulnerability if you are not, if you are earlier stage in your career, or if you are not in charge, I don't generally get questioned, it's a lot easier for my boss to trust me, in certain ways, I don't have a daily intake of work. And so we talk about things like time off, like if your job is to show up and process XYZ amount of things in your inbox, that feeling of, oh my gosh, if I'm not in today, someone else is going to have to do my work is very real, right. Whereas I'm, it's a lot easier for me to say I can still make it work, I can wiggle things around a lot more. So I'm always aware of the fact that the freedoms that I have are not necessarily always true of every role type, or every level of the company. And I wish, I'm always thinking about how we could make it more possible so that we don't lose women who I guess people because honestly, my husband and I are definitely facing this equally right now, people who are parents or have other responsibilities, when they're at a stage in the company that doesn't inherently give them that ability to flex without stress.

Emily-Rose Barry  53:13  

I think that's a really good point to emphasize. And I was thinking it earlier when we were talking about leadership kind of role modeling this at the top, which is fantastic only if that actually trickles down the org chart to every other person. I think we've all seen the case where there is no flexibility until you reach this level of the org chart. And then you can do whatever you want. You can just not show up for meetings. Or you can you can say I'm taking this one from the golf course. But not until you're at that senior level does this apply to you. And that creates a real disconnect and a lot of resentment. So I think that it is definitely valuable to have that role modeling, as long as it's authentically, I'm showing you that I'm taking time for myself and my family because I want that for all of you as well. And you're right Annemieke it is not something that is easily applicable to every single department. You know, I always think about people who oversee customer support, like specifically and how difficult this is like for a manager to want to support their employees while being in need to take time but also need someone to be available for clients between these hours. And like how do you balance that? That is a real challenge. And I don't have the answer for it. But I think acknowledging it as a leader is really helpful. 

Kate Griffin  54:40  

I was thinking about that as well. Emily Rose, when you you both were sharing examples, and I literally wrote down role modeling because that was the same thing I was thinking of, at the leadership we need individuals to lead by example to the behaviors that we want to see in our culture. If we see our leaders doing it, then we will do it, then others will do it. And it should hopefully bleed down into the culture across the company. It's very easy for me to say that in my experience today, because our company is so small, I could put my arms around the company and lead by example and influence in some way, shape or form. That has to be so much harder in a very large company, which I think is where you start to see pockets of, this department is a little bit different than this department and that department. And I'm saying that for those that are listening to this, because I think it's important perspective of the size of the company. And culture can also be a lot different. And you may have a pocket of good in a really big company, and somebody may be sitting in a department across from you and it's not the same. But still it all goes back to role modeling the behaviors you as a company can have, here's what your culture page, here's what we are and what we do and what we provide. But do you actually live and breathe that? Do your employees all feel that? Big or small, that's the most important thing I feel like is that you have that you speak to it, you talk about it, when it doesn't go well, you talk about it, and you figure out ways to improve it. But it really does start at the top. 

Kate Griffin  56:23  

I'll end on this example. Again, I have this experience of working for a very small company. But I work with my CEO all the time. And I had a meeting Monday a few weeks ago, where I got a meeting put on my calendar, and it was six to seven Eastern or something like that. And we had a one on one right before that. I was like, Okay, I'll wait to see, you know what he says about this. And he got a call, he's like, FYI, I put this on your calendar. But I know it's right in the middle of dinner time. So I don't want you to be there. But I want you to know that it's happening. And then if you want to choose to be a part of it, you can. And so we dialogue down, I was like, if you really need me to be there, I'm going to be there. If it's really the right; he's like, it's not important, I just want to be aware of it, I'll try to record it. And that's it. That dialogue, I feel like just exemplifies this leading by example. And the behavior of, he knew it was during probably dinner time with my family, it was past working hours, it was a last minute add. But also it wasn't like he blocked it so I didn't know it was happening. It was something that I should have been aware of., and he gave me the choice to participate in it. I didn't participate in it because it was during dinner time. And at that point in my day, it was no, I'm gonna have dinner with the family, and you can let me know how it goes. And I'll join the next one. And if we go first full circle, like I had to choose to say that as Emily-Rose was saying before, like somebody easily could be like, No, I'm going to be there, because you felt like you have to be there. I never felt that pressure, though. But that also was me choosing to make that decision. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  58:00  

Yeah, I think a very important point that you're bringing up right is the open dialogue and communication. Because if we just get an invitation from our boss, about a meeting over dinner, like what happens inside of us, right? Like, we start to freak out, and we're like, oh, that's over dinner. And then we start to feel that kind of like push and pull. And what do I have to do to rearrange? And also kind of like, why would they schedule a meeting over dinner and you know, and that resentment and that kind of thing. And so that's like if we just send the thing. And so I think as leaders we can, it's also important for us always to think about how we come off to our employees too of like, if I'm sending an email, because I can't sleep and I'm catching up on email at 11 o'clock at night, being very clear about like, this is not my expectation for you to respond or even setting it so that it actually sends in the morning, instead of you know, at that time and potentially causing that anxiety at somebody else. So I think that dialogue that you bring up and that open communication around expectations is so important. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  59:06  

Well, thank you ladies, so so much for joining me today. I've loved this conversation, I want to just wrap up with something that each of you said that kind of is sticking with me that I'm going to continue thinking about. And I know that everybody listening has so many great takeaways and is going to learn so much from from everybody. But from Kate, I think one thing that's so important to remember is that perspective, I love how you talked about putting things into perspective. That unless you're, you know, an open heart surgeon, for example, at work, you know, it's not a life or death situation usually. And we can really kind of put things into perspective and understand that like this season of parenthood is temporary, even if it's 18 years that feels like a really long time but in our long lives that is a temporary season. And so I think putting things into perspective is so important for us to remember. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:00:08  

And then Emily-Rose, you talked about, even with having really great circumstances, a supportive culture, and a remote working situation, it can still be challenging, right. And we can still have struggles and sometimes feel like we're not doing a good job. And also the importance of personal boundaries and setting those and for ourselves and advocating for ourselves having the confidence and the ability to do that. And you know, kind of to take care of ourselves. Sometimes the more flexibility that there is, the more that we can find ourselves whenever we think that we need to show up and look like we're doing a really good job, like we're very dedicated. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:00:50  

And then for Annemieke, I love the idea of kind of like different priorities in different seasons. One of our mutual friends, Maureen Halton came up with the phrase of like, tis not the season, tis not the season to have a beautiful garden, tis not the season to have white carpets and white couches. It's just there are these different seasons in life. And I think sometimes it's important for us to recognize that, right now, we may have different priorities. And just because we're shifting priorities for this season, it does not mean that that's how our entire lives are gonna go. It doesn't mean that it has to be a permanent thing forever, we can always shift again as our priorities and needs change and evolve. And so I love that idea of thinking about seasons. And also the idea of kind of like de prioritizing and saying, Here are all the things I need to do. And here are the things that just don't matter as much right now. Because even though I would love to have a beautiful garden, it's just not within our capacity. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:01:59  

So thank you all so much. Anything that you all want to say that you didn't get to say?

Emily-Rose Barry  1:02:05  

Can I add one more Maureen Halton-ism. Maureen, shout out to you. I was chatting with her recently about these very topics. And she said something that I thought was really wise, she said, As it turns out, we probably should never compare our behind-the-scenes to someone else's camera-ready. And this came out of us kind of commiserating about dealing with a lot of the same things. And you know, sometimes you don't even realize what's going on behind the scenes, right? This would also lead to my pitch to get off of social media, best thing I ever did for myself, because it's a really great way to make sure that you're not looking at someone else's white carpets and saying, Why did my children just spill all over it again? Because the reality is they probably have some not so white carpets like right to the right of where they're filming that Instagram reel, right? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:02:54  

Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And I think when I talked before about like, the comparison thing, that is how we replace in person comparison is on social media. Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:03:06  

Wonderful. Well, thank you all so so much for joining me. I've loved this conversation and hearing from all of you and having this group of powerhouse women together at the same time. Thank you so much. I know how valuable your time is. And I appreciate you spending it with me and with our audience and to everyone listening, thank you so much for tuning in. I would love to hear from you on your biggest takeaways from today. And wishing you all a wonderful week. We'll see you next week.

Emily-Rose Barry  1:03:32  

Thanks Leanna

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:03:38  

Thanks so much for tuning into the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.