Reclaiming Joy and Agency After Postpartum Depression - with Suzanne Yatim Aslam (Transition to Motherhood Series #4)

Transcript

Leanna Laskey McGrath 0:08

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 0:30

Hi, everyone, welcome to the Transition to Motherhood Series. I am so excited to share this with you, I decided to create this special series because a lot of women in my orbit are having babies right now. And I remember whenever I was pregnant, and about to become a new mother, I listened to podcasts all the time, and particularly ones where women were telling their stories. One of my favorites was The Birth Hour podcast because it was women telling their birth stories. I just felt so much more empowered, when I knew what to expect. And I heard from people who had done it before me, and telling me what really happened. So that's why I wanted to create this series, I really feel that motherhood widens our range, we experienced the highest highs and the lowest lows, it's just a much wider range than, at least for me what I ever experienced before. And I think a lot of times, we only talk about the highs. And that's really what you see on social media is all of the highlights and all of the wonderful parts of motherhood. And I think that's so wonderful to see. And also, I think it's important that we are open and honest about the full range of the spectrum. And so in this series, we will be talking very openly about some of the challenges of motherhood, particularly for career focused achievement oriented women.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 2:12

So the first three episodes are going to be interviews with women who are newer moms, they were all very established in their careers before they became mothers. So these are all executive moms. And then the second part of this series falls in May, which is maternal mental health month. And we will be talking to some experts and authors on the topics of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and just some of the other challenges of that transition to motherhood. I want to acknowledge that the women in this series are all executive moms with means for childcare with partners who contribute with remote work situations and flexible environments. And that was also my situation when I transitioned to motherhood. And I felt kind of an extra layer of shame and disappointment in myself that I didn't feel that I was doing a good job. Even though I had these circumstances, that should have made it easier for me, even though I had set myself up. And had created a really ideal situation. And I know that not everybody has that. And I think it's important to acknowledge. And I think it's important to acknowledge that even when we have support, and we've set ourselves up well, and we've prepared as much as we can, it's just still a really hard thing. And so if you're feeling that in your transition to motherhood, or if you felt it in your transition to motherhood, I just want to validate that it's just hard.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 3:49

Also, if you know a new mom, or someone who is about to become a new mother, please share this series with them. My goal is really to help and empower more women to kind of know what to expect, know what to look out for. And also know that they're not alone if they're feeling a certain way, or if they're experiencing certain things. I just think it's so important that we talk about these things. And if you have made that transition to motherhood at some point in your life, I would love to hear from you about what resonated for you or what you also experienced if it was the same or different than what you're going to hear about in these stories. So thank you so much for tuning in. And now on to our episode.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 4:38

Hi, everyone, welcome back to the show and back to the transition to motherhood series. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am really really excited to share a special guest with you all. Her name is Suzanne Yatim Aslam and she is an author who wrote a wonderful book called Post Pardon Me, I read it and I highly recommend it to anyone who has recently made the transition to motherhood or is about to, or even if you made it five years ago like I did, I think it's extremely relatable and really, really helpful to put words to some of the feelings that at least I felt and then I know that others I've talked to have felt as well.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 5:22

So let me tell you a little bit more about Suzanne. Suzanne is a former actor and Miss Arab USA turned writer. Her personal experience with postpartum depression and anxiety left her feeling alone and confused. In her book Post Pardon Me, she addresses the dark thoughts that so many mothers have, but are too scared to say out loud, she's thrilled to get this book into the hands of mothers who may be struggling with postpartum depression and anxiety. Welcome, Suzanne, we're so excited to have you here.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 5:52

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 5:54

So I listened to your book. I love memoir's like my favorite genre of book, because I just love hearing people's stories. And so I love it whenever there's an audio version, where the author reads it to me, because they're like telling me their story. And so I loved listening to this story. And I feel like I know you really well, from learning all about you in your stories. So yeah, and I just appreciated how open and honest you were, it didn't feel like you were like holding anything back from us. You were just

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 6:28

Leanna Laskey McGrath 6:28

You were just out there with it. So yeah, if maybe you can introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about you. And also just maybe a little bit about like what inspired you to write the book?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 6:39

Yeah. So my book is called Post Pardon Me. It's now an Amazon bestseller. And it's second edition was just quite an honor that so many mamas could resonate. At the same time. It's really sad that mamas are resonating. Right, because it's just, you know, you hope that mamas don't go through this.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 6:54

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 6:54

For your audience members, the way you're describing it. The reason it's so candid, is because I wrote it in the form of journal entries. And I was very deliberate about why I chose to do it that way. Because the whole point of feeling like ashamed to talk about it means that you can't talk about it. So how was I going to talk about it in book form, if I couldn't talk about it? So I was like, Well, let me just bring you inside my head. So I wrote it in the form of journal entries. So I was allowed to be as candid as possible and say things like, I don't like my kid. And you're just in my head, and there's no filter. So I chose to do it that way. I chose to make it like kinda light hearted, a little bit dark at times, it's naturally going to be a dark comedy, because it's such a heavy topic. But you know, I'm a product of my generation. So I'm throwing in like Harry Potter references and FRIENDS quotes and things like that. That just makes me so happy. The dads really like it, because dads can read the book and be like, Oh, that's what my wife was doing and thinking. Got it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 7:53

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 7:53

Because these are things that like, are even Mama's who haven't had postpartum depression, read the book. And they're like, Yeah, that's totally relatable, just because there's so many things that we experience that we think are normal. And so we don't mention them. And it turns out that actually, a lot of this isn't necessarily normal.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 8:11

Yeah, I think that's probably a big question that a lot of us have, because it's not something that we talk a whole lot about, and is just like, is what I'm feeling and thinking normal, or at what point does it cross the line? I wrote down a few quotes that I thought were really interesting about that. You said, Why doesn't anyone talk about how much this sucks? And I don't think I can get answers. Because I don't think anyone would ever admit to feeling the way I do. I felt that I remember feeling, I don't even know who to talk to about this. And nobody seems to be talking about this out loud. Everybody seems to be talking about only like the joy and the beauty of having a new baby, which that exists too and is definitely there. But then also, there's another side to it. And it's like, how do I even bring this up? What do I say? What words do I use? Who do I talk to?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 9:05

Well, first part is the idea that you have to acknowledge that there's a problem, or that something's wrong. And the thing that I always say is in my head correlation was causation. So I became a mother. And at the same time, I became depressed. So I had no way of knowing that that's what depression felt like. But I had every idea of thinking, this is what motherhood feels like. I didn't know the difference. And I had never had depression before. So I couldn't identify it. So I was like, God, being a mom sucks. Oh my God, these are the feelings associated with motherhood, holy cow. So that was all I knew. And you hear like, Oh, you're so tired all the time. And, and your hormones are up and down. So you kind of like, oh, this is what that means. Okay, cool.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 9:45

Yes.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 9:46

So in one way, you're like, Well, what is there to complain about or talk about? Because apparently, this is just my lot in life as a mother. This is just expected. And if you've never felt that before, then it's really hard to identify that something's wrong.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 9:57

Yeah, and I think it's also like, This is just what it is. This is what everybody experiences. So therefore, who am I to complain about it? Everybody goes through this.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 10:07

Oh my god, I had so much guilt. So I had a really good life beforehand. I was an actor and an activist. And I traveled a lot. And I made movies and like, man, like, what a cool life. And then my life blank went it just like shrunk. And that was really difficult for me. But then I still had a really good life like I was, you know, you read you read in the book, like I live in Scottsdale, and I'm safe and my family they're- I'm the daughter of immigrants who come from Palestine, which is, as you hear the news right now, like, it's not the safest place in the world to be. And I know what it's like there. And to think that I'm sad, andin my little safe condo, I was kind of like, You're being a big baby, like, shut up, shut up, you know, you're sensitive. You can't handle anything like, first world problems that like I was so mean to myself, because I was like, I know what real suffering is. And this isn't it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 10:58

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 10:58

You know what I mean, but who suffered aside for me? My baby. My baby was awful. Like Sammy was feeding off of all of that. And I had no idea that that's what he was doing. And so he was just feeding off of like, all this dark energy and all this sadness, and he never slept, he never ate. It was just like, it was miserable. It was miserable. And I just thought, like, Oh, my God, this being a mom sucks. But really, like it was this terrible cycle that we were both feeding each other.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 11:26

Well, especially I think for listeners of this podcast, a lot of whom are executive women, who by all measures of outside success, have very good lives, and have the means to either spend time with their baby full time, or pay somebody to spend time with their baby full time in a safe place. And, and so it feels like who am I to complain? Who am I to feel this way? Whenever there's real suffering going on in the world. And I have so many privileges, and who am I to even suffer like this?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 12:04

And then if you are somebody who's like, really motivated and high powered, and you just kick so much ass in the real world, then you have this thing that's supposed to come naturally to you. It's like, oh, you're, you're a woman, and you have a uterus. And so this stuff is supposed to come natural, and you're just supposed to know what you're doing. And then so the most basic thing, having a baby, and I say basic in air quotes, you don't feel like you're doing it well. And you're like, Oh, my God, I can't even do the most basic that why can't I feed my child? Like, why don't I understand when he's crying? And it makes you feel so just incapable and just, I can't even do this, like, I can't even take care of my own kid successfully, it just pales in comparison to the other things that you've done. Because this is the one thing that like, as a woman, you're supposed to, again, in quotes, know what to do. And that's, that's a that's absolutely awful.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 12:55

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 12:55

Because we've told ourselves that that's what that is. But this whole, like, it takes a village to raise a child, that village is for the mama, that village is for the mama, like she needs support, and she needs her elder women to be around her to like, give her those instincts and give her that wisdom and be like, This is what's going on with your baby and, and listen and like what do you think's really going on and like teaching you to turn inward, but instead we're like, oh, you had a baby, go lock yourself in your house by yourself, while the rest of us go out into the world, because we don't really have time for you to sit with you and your baby. It's just a lot.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 13:29

I think you've mentioned a couple of different things that I had listed out in the shame and guilt column.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 13:37

That chapter.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 13:37

Well, I felt like it was woven throughout the book. So I actually like made a list of all of the different things. Because I think that that's so true, especially for high achieving women who are so used to being successful at everything. Now we're starting this brand new job that we've never done before. We have no idea how to do it. Babies don't come with a manual. And we're just supposed to know what to do. And we feel like failures whenever we can't do it. And whenever those instincts don't just suddenly turn on for us. And you talked many times throughout the book about that maternal instinct and having an expectation for yourself that you have it you talked about not having the maternal instinct, because you didn't know the sex of the baby, because you didn't know to push during delivery. And then once Sammy was here, you talked about it. I don't know why he's crying. I don't know what to do. I don't know what I'm supposed to do here.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 14:31

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 14:32

So I wanted to kind of dive more into that shame and guilt piece. You talked about it from your Arab and Christian roots and how that showed up for you. And just feeling overall unprepared for motherhood. You said, I don't love Sammy the way I'm supposed to. Which anytime there's like a should or a supposed to of course that brings on shame because we think right, I'm just supposed to feel this way or I shouldn't feel this way. Therefore, there's something wrong with me if I don't. You said there is one way you're supposed to feel.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 14:32

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 15:06

Yes.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 15:06

Yes.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:07

Why am I this way? What's wrong with me? I don't feel it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:10

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:11

Air quotes it. Either other women have something I don't have, or they're lying about the entire thing.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:18

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:19

I think I remember thinking constant like, this is so hard. How does anyone do this? Meaning like, everyone else is able to do this, but me. A lot of frustration with yourself. And you said a lot. Like, I can't make him happy. I don't know what to do to make him happy. So I'm curious about all the shame and the guilt and how that manifested for you. And I mean, I think for me, it was like, shame and guilt are always there. And then motherhood, just kicked it up.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 15:47

It amplifies it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 15:48

Yes.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 15:48

It puts a mirror up to your shame and guilt in a really strong way, you know, coming from like, a Middle Eastern background where, you know, it's just like, just more conservative. And then I grew up in a really, really like evangelical Christian background, which is like, even more conservative. It's like, everything is about just feeling guilty and asking for God's forgiveness and feeling guilty and asking for God's forgiveness. So it was just like, even though I don't really subscribe to that anymore, man. Like, I didn't realize it was still there, you know, until it was popping up in motherhood, to sort of like self flagellation a little bit. I realized this. And again, this is also in the book when I thought I had miscarried. And I was driving to the hospital, and the pain had gone away on the drive. And so I was like, Oh, God, what does this mean? Like, did the pain go away because I miscarried? And like, that process is over, did I the pain go away because like, I don't know, I just had some pain, and it went away now. And the baby's fine. I didn't know. But I was in the car. And my eyes were closed, because I was in so much pain, and like, I was tired. And I was like, Well, what if I did lose the baby? And then I actually asked myself how I was supposed to respond. I was like, Well, there's only one way to respond. Because I've seen all the movies and all the shows like, there's one way you respond, then I also like weirdly asked myself, but do I want to respond that way? Like I was 10 weeks. So would I be like grief stricken? I don't know. Or like, is that expected, so I'm just going to fall into that. And you wouldn't believe like, if you really give yourself the opportunity to ask that question of like, am I reacting based on what I'm truly feeling? Or am I reacting based on like, the way we've just structured society, and this is how you respond to things. It gets really interesting, really fast. I don't think we realize how much like books and media affect the way our customs function.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 17:31

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 17:32

And the expectations we put on ourselves, without even realizing it. And the funny thing is, I didn't realize when your water breaks, you don't rush to the hospital. I didn't know that.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 17:41

It's not like Sex in the City.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 17:43

No, no, remember when Phoebe you know, everybody was like, they all like grabbed her. And they all rushed, and all the friends are standing around in the waiting room. Like that's not a thing. That's not a thing. And they're all in the room with her like that. But I didn't know, because nobody ever tells you that part. And so, turns out, your water breaks. And then they're like, Hey, are you contracting? No, okay, great, go back to sleep. It's due in the morning, go to bed. And you're like, Oh, that's weird. We're not making a scene. I don't know, like, I really didn't know. And I think so much of our lives are lived through the lens of media, that we don't realize that that might not be how we genuinely want to respond. And I will say this, it's like a weird social experiment. Because as a writer, you start to like, I notice everything. It's kind of annoying, because I never re- like just rest. I noticed at gender reveal parties when it's a party. So you're kind of on display. I've never talked about this before. You're kind of on display. And so when they pop the balloon and out comes blue, sometimes the women will like fall on the floor in joy, right? Or they have like a really exaggerated response. And then my question was, you wouldn't have that response when you're in the doctor's office, and you're told it's a boy. You're just like, oh, and you might have like a moment emotional with your partner or whatever. And it's great. But like, we kind of created a new way, because it's a party and because we're on display, and it's like a performance. We're sort of performing these real life emotions. And it's just so strange to me how like, none of that is necessarily like deep down how we're feeling. It might be, but it isn't always. I think a lot of times we just do things out of expectation.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 19:25

Yeah, I actually wrote down a quote that you said in the book, you said, Every major life event that occurs has been portrayed in movies and television in such a specific way that we think that's how life really is. I realized I was expecting to feel like a character would. And I thought it's so interesting to think about how socialization and culture impacts our brains and programs our brains, and so then it's like, Is this me?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 19:50

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 19:51

In so many different ways. Is this me responding or is this how I think I'm supposed to respond? And so

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 19:59

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 20:00

Then in terms of the shame and guilt, it adds so much to it. Because it's like, Wait, that's how I'm supposed to respond. That's how I'm supposed to feel. And there's a dissonance, right? Like, that is not how I feel. And that's not how I'm naturally responding in this moment. Right? And so therefore,

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 20:19

What's wrong with you?

Leanna Laskey McGrath 20:20

something must be wrong with me.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 20:23

Yep. If that's the only thing you've ever seen, then obviously, you're the problem, obviously. And that's what we tell ourselves, like, How dare us be actually, like, be unique. And we're just an array of emotions. And everybody becomes a mom at different stages in their growth. Like if I became a mom today, oh, my God, a part of me wishes that I didn't become a mom 'til right now, because like, I've just grown up a lot in an eight year, almost nine years, he's going to be nine this month. I've grown up a lot since then. And maybe I would have if I had miscarried now had that reaction that was a lot like bigger, because I'm a lot more emotional now than I was when I first had Sammy, you know, I'm like, more tapped into my feelings than I was when I first had Sammy. Becoming a mom allowed me to be softer in that way, not at the beginning, because I was just falling apart. But over time, there was like a softness came out of me that I didn't have before that was sort of like a mark of pride before to be like, I'm so tough, but everybody's at a different stage in a different phase when they have those experiences and to so to expect us all to have one way of experiencing and feeling and acting out those feelings. That's not fair. And it's very unrealistic.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 20:23

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 20:23

But again, if every time you you see somebody's water breaks, and they rushed to the hospital, that is what you expect to happen. Why would you know any better?

Leanna Laskey McGrath 21:46

Yeah, and if every time a baby is born, you see the mother crying tears of joy. And then if every time you know, the transition to motherhood is like this beautiful thing where you know, of showing, as movies and television does like showing the highlight reel of that experience, rather than the other side of that experience.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 22:08

Yeah. And then you, you know, you spent all that time too thinking about it while you're pregnant, right? Like, you're, you're creating a montage in your head of what that timeline is going to be like, and it's not at all.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 22:22

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a lot of times, at least for me, like where I find the most frustration and disappointment is when I create an expectation in my head of how something is going to go, right. Like my proposal should be exactly how it should be in the movie. And on the viral YouTube video, it should be a very big event. And if it's not that way that I built it up in my head, I'm going to feel disappointment and frustration. And like, that's not how it was supposed to go.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 22:51

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 22:52

So in our transition to motherhood, we heard from a few different women who experienced postpartum anxiety. And I want to hear a little bit more from you about, so you experienced both postpartum depression and anxiety. What did it feel like? And you mentioned earlier about, like, some of this is normal, you know, like, maybe a threshold or cut across the line into, Okay, this is beyond normal. So, especially for like a woman who is going through this for the first time, and they're like, is this normal? You know, tell me more about like, what does it feel like?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 23:28

So let's describe the timeline first.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 23:30

Okay.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 23:31

BABY BLUES, is what you experience the first two weeks postpartum, maybe three, if I want to, you know, be a little generous with you. That's it. And so the feelings you have when you experience baby blues, which is a myriad of physical, emotional and mental craziness, you know, your body aches, I had, like, I shook a lot, my bones really hurt, I would get out of bed, and I couldn't walk on my feet, and I couldn't pick Sammy up like my fingers hurt, it was very difficult to hold him. Because you essentially went through trauma. It's like a car wreck that you went through with your body, right? So the emotional fluctuations of like, crying for absolutely no reason is very normal, during your baby blues phase. And I always make the joke, like you put the wrong sock on the wrong foot. And you're just like, I can't do anything right, everything sucks. And that's totally normal.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 24:24

But if you're like, two months in, three months in, four months in, seven months in, and you're still losing your mind, because you put the wrong sock on the wrong foot. And suddenly like everything's bleak, that's not normal. That's really not normal. So you are going to have this fog during your baby blues where you're sort of like looking at everything through a bubble, you know, where you're like, you can't really figure out what's happening. I experienced that, but then it stayed. So like, I thought I was dreaming all the time. And I was like, Oh, this this none of this is real. This can't be real. And I really had a hard time seeing my reality. Then I was like this is definitely okay God, funny joke wake me up. Like, I actually like kind of disassociated from reality pretty hard. And I like kind of refused to accept that this is where I was. That's not normal. So that is when you definitely do need help. So okay, so depression is like, the way I described it is depression is this like cloud that follows you all the time. And it's just slowly filling up with water. And it'll be really difficult things like I didn't sleep all night, and it'll be really silly things. Like, you know, somebody coughed annoyingly in front of you. And it's like, you just can't take it. And they're just like, slowly filling up slowly filling up slowly filling up and then one day, anything can set you off. And suddenly it's just like this rain cloud will just storms on you. And you just get unbelievably sad. And you can't necessarily explain why. But your body feels so heavy, it feels so heavy. And it's if you have not experienced this, it's incredibly difficult to explain. But I just felt like I had like weights in my body. And I couldn't find a reason to be happy.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 26:03

And this is where I use the Harry Potter reference of the Dementors. And then the Dementors and Harry Potter were a symbol that JK Rowling had used to describe depression. And what they do is they don't kill you, the Dementors don't kill you. They're these creatures, but they suck all of the happiness from you. And so you have nothing left, but sadness. And that's what it felt like, like, I couldn't conjure up a good memory, I couldn't conjure up a reason to be grateful. And that would just sit with me for a really long time.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 26:30

That's what depression felt like, anxiety was sometimes I also thought, I felt like it was worse. Like if I had to pick, I don't know if I would have picked the anxiety because that the physical feelings that come with anxiety are painful, the constant feeling of nausea. I hate that feeling you ever again been carsick. And then like, you get out of the car, but you're still feeling really sick. And, you know, if I sit like in the back back of a car, you know, it takes like, a couple hours for my nausea to go away. That feelingn, and then the constant feeling of fear, like something's wrong, something bad's gonna happen. What is it? I don't know. I don't know. But something bad's gonna happen. Okay, but like, do you know, why is it the baby? I don't know. You know, and like that panic. And that dread is so unbelievably, I'm just gonna say the word toxic. Like, that's what it feels. It feels really, really toxic. And then the feeling of being afraid. And having a baby that you feel you have to protect, but you're not really sure from what was exhausting. It was really exhausting in a way that not depression was where I was like, My body hurts, and I'm tired, and my body's heavy, and I'm tired. It's just a different beast. And I don't recommend it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 27:34

Yeah, I remember when you talked about Dementors. You were in St. Louis, and your hometown and talking to your best friend, Sophia. And you described it and she was like, Yeah, that's what JK Rowling used to describe depression. It seemed like like a light bulb went off. You're like, Oh.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 27:54

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 27:55

Depression. And I think that explains so much. I thought this was a permanent state. This was motherhood and like you said before, you just associated those feelings with motherhood. And so therefore, I'm a mother. Now, this is permanent, this is going to last forever. This is my new normal. And instead of like, just a temporary state. I'm curious about that kind of like lightbulb moment for you like, what did that do for you?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 28:26

Well, two things. So one thing to remember is with depression, it's just impossible in the moment to understand that you will not always be depressed, that is impossible. Even the idea of like not being depressed tomorrow, you know, or like, maybe I'll have a good day tomorrow. That's insane. You just can't. One of the things that my girlfriend would say to me is she's like, your depression is lying to you. Your depression is lying to you. And you think 'cause it's happening in your head that it's true, because you're the one telling yourself this. So obviously, it's true. But it's not. It's this preacher that's inhabited your body and is now like, you're possessed. And it's telling you these things that are very untrue. Like, my life is awful. I'm never going to be happy again. This was a mistake. I shouldn't have had a baby. I don't know what I'm doing. You're a bad mother. I don't love my kid. Like, those things are all lies that depression is telling you to feed and feed and feed and stay and grow. So there's that.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 29:26

I mean, obviously, she didn't diagnose me, but she just like was like, Hey, have you thought that maybe you might have this based on what you're telling me? She had been depressed before. She'd not been a mom, but she I was describing to her how I was feeling. And she's like, Yeah, that sounds like the depression I've experienced my whole life. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. I got mad. I got kind of angry because I was like, Well, I'm sorry. I have so much going on. And now you expect me to take care of a mental health issue. I don't have time for this. And I got really mad because I did not want to have to deal with this. I didn't know how to deal with this. I had no desire to like go to therapy and talk about it. I don't take medication like even if I am cramping and I need to take Tylenol like I won't do it. So I was like, Well, I'm not going to take medication. And I don't want to go to therapy that's stupid and talking about it's stupid and like, how is that going to take away my depression? You know, and so I just was like, I have no options. And so I great, I'm diagnosed. Great. Now what? Yeah, also, I have a baby to take care of who I'm barely taking care of. And now I got to take care of myself. When you're depressed, you don't sit there and go, Hey, so what are some good coping skills that I could use to pull myself out of this? Like, that's just not where your head's at, you know?

Leanna Laskey McGrath 30:33

Yeah. So how did you pull yourself out of it are like, what did that look like?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 30:38

That's what people asked me.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 30:39

Yeah, so like, now, you know.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 30:42

People are like, Great, so like, tell us what you did. And I'm like, oh, no, no, this is a cautionary tale, like don't do what I did. Don't bottle it up. Don't not talk about it. Don't say everything's fine. When it's not fine. Don't assume that this is incredibly normal. Like I did everything wrong. I pushed people away, I did everything wrong. And so this is me going like, please don't do that. You have options, like, you can ask for help. So for me, it was time. And but here's the thing. So then I had my second baby. And my anxiety like, spiked, my depression declined a bit, but my anxiety went through the roof. But here's how I knew I came out of it. Because every time I would get mad, like the kid, the kids were two years apart. So it was just a lot. And I isolated myself even more after my second baby. Because I was like, God, it's just too hard. And it's the summertime in Arizona, like it's hot. And so I'm just gonna not go anywhere. And being isolated. I was so incredibly lonely. I was so lonely. But even like, saying, I'm lonely, feels embarrassing, and silly and stupid. And, you know, like, I didn't want to say those things. I just had so much shame around even saying that because like, I'm tough. Remember, I'm tough. Like, I don't need people I'm fine. Saying I'm lonely is incredibly vulnerable. So I just isolated myself, which made my anxiety spike, and I would get mad at the kids. And as soon as I would get mad at the kids, I would feel the heaviness feel my my body responding to the depression.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 32:05

And then one day, I got mad at the kids and you know, your body is a it expects patterns. We create patterns all the time, all the time, your brain is constantly looking for systems that it recognizes. So I would get mad at the kids. And my I'd feel the heaviness in my body, I would get mad at the kids, I'd feel the heaviness my body get mad at my husband for not being around enough. And I would feel the heaviness in my body. Like that was a pattern that me and my mind and body had created. Then one day I got mad at the kids. And and I obviously I don't realize I'm waiting for the feeling. But I was waiting for the feeling and then nothing. And and I was like, Wait, why am I not feeling the thing? The heaviness the pattern that I'm supposed to that I felt for over two years? Like where did it go where is it? And then it was kind of scary to be honest with you. Because your brain doesn't like even if it's something positive, it doesn't like something different. Our brains are meant to survive, not thrive. This is why people sometimes don't pull themselves out of bad situations. Because it's comfortable. It's familiar. It's just scary. So happiness was scary.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 33:08

So I got mad at the kids. And I was waiting for the heavy feeling and it didn't happen. And then I started noticing that that was happening. Like I'd get frustrated. Because yeah, you get an infant and a toddler Come on, like who isn't getting frustrated. So I noticed physically that my body was healing. And that was how I knew that I was coming out of it, if that makes sense. But that was just through time. And learning and giving myself breaks. Like if I didn't have any like coping mechanisms is I started to learn to give myself breaks. And so like if Sammy was at school, and Ronan was napping, I stopped using it as a time to like do things and I would drink a cup of coffee, which I now realize was terrible for my anxiety. But I would like drink a cup of coffee and I'd read a book and I'd be like, I don't care if the house is a mess. I don't care if whatever. But like this is my time. And giving me that reset in the middle of the day was really helpful. I'm not saying it was the cure. I'm saying this is how I coped. That's a different thing.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 33:57

Sure.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 33:58

But I learned to just give myself that time and I was able to reset because women, mamas don't reset at the end of the day, like you can't be on for 16 hours. And then like go to bed and be like okay, now I get to rest. Like you need time in the middle of the day to sort of like recalibrate.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 34:15

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 34:16

And we don't really always give ourselves that time. So for me, that was really helpful.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 34:20

Yeah, I am curious as well about it seems like when you said it out loud, so like first step was that you recognize that it is a possibility to feel like, brought it to you as like a possibility and that was at four months postpartum. But then you talked about how like you would think that then I would go and tell Casa my husband immediately right and but it felt like it felt really difficult or like that's what I observed. And I know that you said many times, like I'm very uncomfortable talking about my feelings and I want to appear as a strong person, independent woman and like I don't need help? It seems like saying it out loud is a step forward a little bit. It was for me I probably around eight or nine weeks that I was like, I feel like something's not right. And I said it out loud to my husband, I was like, I need help. Something's not right. Like, I don't feel like myself, something's off. I was planning to get help. The saying it and the admitting it and like the movement, I guess it was some kind of movement rather than just like sitting there with it. It was like the fog kind of lifted for me a few days later. And that was my personal experience. I know it's different for everybody. But I just wonder about a step, even if it's like a tiny step to like, say it out loud, or to talk about it with a friend or number one held you back from that, why are you so afraid to share it? And then number two, like, what did it do for you? Because that whole scene, whenever you did end up sharing it with your husband, I was like in tears. Like, this is so beautiful. But like, what did that do for you once you did share it?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 34:58

What held me back? It's so funny. The way people supposedly make you feel is just them holding up a mirror to the things that you already feel about yourself. So Kasim, my husband, is an incredibly successful human being like came from the hood in Albuquerque. And you know, now is like running his own business. Last year, he sold the company and it was like just just some like Silicon Valley people I don't know. He's just so impressive and so smart and never went to college. And he's one of the top digital marketers on the planet. Like he's just so impressive. And the bigger he got, the smaller I felt, and it really had nothing to do with him. I just decided for my own insecurities and my own inadequacies that the bigger he got, the smaller I felt. And then so here I had this one job that should come with all the instincts that I'm already born with. And I couldn't freakin do the job. Why did I have to get postpartum depression like, you know, I acted like as if that was something that I not decided, but like-

Leanna Laskey McGrath 37:03

You chose

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 37:04

Yeah. So I was like, kind of ashamed of that. And ashamed of like, I have this one job, and I can't even do it well, and I was basically born to do this job. And so I just felt a lot of like, I'd spent so much time with him being frustrated and being weird, and just being like, kind of crazy. And I would see him not be able to talk to me about it. Because I was never good. And this is like just life in general. Like I was never good at taking constructive criticism. I couldn't do it. So then when it came to the baby, or my mothering, there was just like, he already knew by this point, I'd already like trained him, like, don't talk to me about stuff about me, like I can't handle it. So he never said anything, but you could like feel it and see it, you know that he was so disappointed, or he was like frustrated, or he didn't know like, why I was acting the way I was acting. And so I just felt more and more shame instead of being like, hey, I have a reason for it. Here you go. Great reason. It just made me feel more ashamed. And I wanted to hide even more. And then when I did finally tell him, because he asked me if I wanted to leave. He's like, obviously you don't want to be here. That's very clear, Sammy ruined your life. So like if you want to go and just come back in a year like, go. And I couldn't believe he'd said that to me. And I couldn't believe that I'd put him in a position to say that to me, that that's what he thought I wanted based on my behavior, which is true. Like, based on my behavior, I could see why he had gotten to that point.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 38:27

I'd literally go to the store with him. And I would be like telling like the 16 year old cashier, don't ever have a baby, don't do it like and I was like going crazy talking to people about this. I was like trying to save the whole world from ever having children. I just was so messed up. So it makes sense that he would look at that and be like, where did my wife go? And who is this person and Oh, my God, like, I can't believe this is what I have to deal with for the rest of our life. So when I did tell him for him, it had the response that I kind of wish I had when I found out is just like immense relief. Like, oh my god, this explains so much. This explains like we can work with this. He's a he's a problem solver. He's a problem solver, as are so many men, right? So he was like, Great, let's do some research. And let's figure it out. And let's create a schedule. So you have more breaks and below that, like he just wanted to find a solution to this, but I was just too scared to tell him.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 39:20

So when there wasn't like a solution, like do this, get this result, and it's done. How was that for you both to like not just be able to solve it?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 39:31

Well, then we got to be frustrated together. I mean, it did make things better because he was aware of the problem. So like if he saw me get frustrated or he saw me like get heavy because how you feel a cold coming on. It's kind of how like, I would feel the depression coming on. Like oh my god, it's happening. Oh my god, like here it comes and he would take the baby and be like, what do you need? Do you need to go take a nap or go take a shower? And so we were just trying to cope with it on like a moment by moment basis. So I'd be like, Hey, I just fed the baby, here. I'm gonna go lie down in the sun. I needed the sun so desperately. This was something that was new for me too. And this is something that maybe like, just generally it's, you know, medically, it's helpful to have some of that vitamin D, and it does make you feel better. I like paved the sun, which is weird, because in Phoenix, we try to avoid it. But I was like, this is the only thing that's going to make me happy. So I would find ways to just go like, take a book and sit in the sun. But anyway, yeah, so we've just played like these moment by moment scenarios where I feel like coming on, and then he would take the baby from me. That's all we knew how to do to get through it.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 40:26

So for anyone listening who is experiencing this, who's a very solution oriented person, they're probably thinking like, Alright, give me the solution, right? Like, I just need to know it.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 40:36

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 40:37

And it sounds like for you, your experience was, it is not about solving the problem. It's about learning to live with the problem, and deal with it in healthier ways. So, like you said, it's more coping strategies than like a solution. And so it sounds like then, as a team, you were able to figure out, Okay, I see this coming, but you were able to identify it, maybe like, learn to identify it better, and then be able to communicate it better. And then identify those coping strategies like getting more sun, taking a break.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 41:13

Yeah, that worked for me. They're different. Everybody's coping skills are different. But mine was like, I really like to read. I really like books like, like Harry Potter, where they're like, you know, fantasy fiction. So I can just not be here in this realm of existence.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 41:26

Yeah, just kind of take a break.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 41:28

Yeah. So just go away, like sit in the sun drink. Again, don't drink this much coffee, if you have anxiety, it just never occurred to me, maybe a cup of tea. So doing those things really gave me a break, I also found a place called Modern Milk, which I told you about it in the book. And doing that was really helpful, because it was a place where I could work out and I could take the baby, so I didn't have to like stress out about childcare, they had childcare there. Or you could take the baby into the class with you. And I could move my body. And I always felt really good leaving the house, even if it was like just to take a walk to the mailbox, which is like at the end of the street, just going out felt really, really good. So I figured out what that was, that kind of gave me like a little serotonin. And I tried to work with that.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 42:08

But then it doesn't always work. Because I know that moving my body feels really good. And it makes me feel better. But when you're depressed and your body feels really heavy, and you just want to lay on the couch, it's very hard to be like, Okay, I know that if I get up right now, and I go, I'm going to feel great. Having done yoga. It's the getting up and going, that's actually incredibly difficult. So it's a big ask to say like, Hey, I know you don't feel good. But I promise you, if you get up and go work out, you're going to feel great. That's actually a really, really big ask, and I think we need to give ourselves a little grace there. You know?

Leanna Laskey McGrath 42:40

Yeah, for sure. I know, we're talking a little bit about the path through and forward, I just want to make sure we talk about the story that I think was so relatable to so many new moms who are just in it and who are feeling like, oh, man, this is so hard, like my life right now is just like, When is the baby going to sleep? And when do I have to change a diaper? And when does the baby need to eat? And it's just kind of feels like it's out of your control? Like, that's your life at that moment? Yeah. So you told the story about how your father in law went to get you take out a true food, which I also love. And you ordered? Yeah, a cucumber refresher, your favorite drink? You tell the story, because I think it's, I love how you told it in the book. And I think it was so relatable to me, because it was like, Oh my gosh, I mean, it wasn't a cucumber refresher for me.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 43:35

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 43:35

So you told the story about how your father in law went to get you take out at True Food, which I also love. And you ordered

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 43:35

Yeah

Leanna Laskey McGrath 43:38

A cucumber refresher, your favorite drink. You tell the story, because I think it's, I love how you told it in the book. And I think it was so relatable to me, because it was like, Oh my gosh, I mean, it wasn't a cucumber refresher for me.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 43:43

What's yours is the kale aid, right?

Leanna Laskey McGrath 43:45

Well, the kale aid is my my drink of choice. But I mean, in my postpartum time, it wasn't like that's, that wasn't the thing that like, you know, took it all out for me. But there are things for all of us. You gave examples earlier of like putting on the wrong sock, right, these things that like, just set us off. And we're like, I know, this is not rational to react in this way. But this is just how it is for me right now. So tell us the story.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 44:12

So my father in law was like, oh, I want to come see the baby. You know, let's have dinner. Just order something and I'll go pick it up and I'm like, Oh, God, that sounds so great. Ilove some True Food. They have the best vegan pizza even like carnivores love this pizza. It's just so good. With their almond ricotta cheese and I'm just so excited and they have this cucumber refresher drink that is so good. And in this moment, I became hyper obsessed like an addict. And I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna get this cucumber refresher and it's going to change my whole life. This is the solution I've needed this entire time. How did I not know and I built up this freakin drink to be like the thing that saved my life. And I thought about it or like the couple hours that after I'd ordered it and I was waiting for him to go pick it up and oh, so great. And then he shows up and I grabbed the bag and I go to the kitchen. And I'm listening to him talk to my husband. And he's like, Oh my God, that place is amazing. They have the most incredible service while I was at the bar waiting for the food, they give you this flavored water. They didn't have to do that. That's so nice. That's like Class Act customer service. So while I'm listening to him talk, I'm rummaging through the food and I can't find my drink. And then suddenly, I put it together. I hear what he says, and I can't find a drink. And I died. And I went to him and I was like, What did you drink? And he was like, Oh, it was just like cucumber infused water. It was just excellent customer. So he's like going on and like twirling his hand and this like, really unique way that he does. And I was like, That's my drink. You drank my drink I have been waiting for you drank my-

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 45:45

And then him and Kasim start cracking up. They thought it was the funniest thing that my father in law mistook my drink for excellent customer service. And they're laughing. And I'm like, why is this funny? I'm sorry, you stole my food. Why is this funny? And I got so unbelievably angry, like my, my fist were in balls. And I was like, Why don't you understand how important and life changing this cucumber refresher is for me? Like, what is wrong with you? So I like scooped up, Sammy. And I was like, You know what, I'm not hungry. And I went to the room. And they're like, you know, in costumes, like, Pops you're so dumb, like, what are you and just like laughing about it. And I felt so unbelievably alone, that like he couldn't understand the importance of this drink. I took Sammy and I just nursed him. And I was like, it's just me and you kids. That's all I have is just me and his baby and my sadness. And I locked myself in my room and just let them eat their pizza. And I couldn't believe like, two weeks later, he showed up with two of them as an apology. Yeah, it was so weird. In hindsight, it was so weird how upset I got. But in the moment, it was like the only thing that was going to feel good. It was like this moment of happiness that he took away from me is what it what it was. And him not being able to live inside of my body and not understand like the significance and the weight of that thing. Like, hey, everything's been really awful today. And I have this one moment to just enjoy something that feels good to my body. You can't explain that to people.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 47:17

Right, you just took that away from me.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 47:18

You just took it away from me.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 47:20

Yeah, well, and I think that that story is so relatable for me. And also you likened it, as did I, to Ross.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 47:29

Yeah, you ate the only good thing going on in my life.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 47:33

Yeah, whenever his coworker ate his Thanksgiving leftover sandwich. And obviously Ross wasn't suffering from postpartum anxiety or depression. No, but his life sucked. Yeah. But it feels like in that moment, you know, yeah, you've kind of created this beacon for yourself of like, this is the thing that's gonna make my day better. It feels really hard when that thing doesn't go, right. It's like one more thing.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 47:33

Yeah, whenever his coworker ate his Thanksgiving leftover sandwich. And obviously Ross wasn't suffering from postpartum anxiety or depression.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 47:43

No, but his life sucked.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 47:44

Yeah. But it feels like in that moment, you know, yeah, you've kind of created this beacon for yourself of like, this is the thing that's gonna make my day better. It feels really hard when that thing doesn't go, right. It's like one more thing.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 47:58

Yeah. And when your life is really small, there's like very few moments where you can actually find that joy. Your life is really small, and you're really depressed. That's about as good as it gets.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:08

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:08

In my head, you know, like, getting that juice was as good as it's gonna get for me. And then that was taken away from me.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 48:14

Yeah. Tell me more about this idea of life being small. Because you've said that a few times. I'm curious about that. Like, what do you mean by that?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:23

I was really shocked. It felt like I went to prison. So I had this life that was like, you know, I'd stay up late making films and they were sometimes crap films, but it was like, so much fun, like the art of filmmaking is brings me so much joy. And we traveled a lot. And I was an activist and I'd like done some really crazy things. And I was like, I worked as a peacekeeper in Palestine and crazy things like I'd been shot at before, you know, like, just really like intense stuff that I loved. Like, I loved that stuff. I also like did some politics here in Phoenix, I had done a lot that wasn't necessarily like just the regular run of the mill nine to five life.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 48:23

And you would call that a big life.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:24

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 48:25

Okay.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:25

That was my big life, the travel and the work and just the art of filmmaking. And it was just huge. Like, for me, this was like,

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:40

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 48:40

what a cool what a cool life and I just loved who I was, and I loved Suz, the actor and Suz activist and like, she was so cool. And I always had a lot of self worth, like, my dad did a really good job at instilling that so me and my siblings were never those people were like, we just always like kind of walked around with our head high. And then all of that went away. All of it went away. Like I can't go off to a warzone anymore. I have a baby. I can't act in the middle of the night. I have to breastfeed. And the only acting jobs I could get was commercial work, which is just soul sucking, like it's not real acting. And so I was like he took all of the things that I loved doing. And I'm just stuck in this condo all day. I decided to be a stay at home mom because I was like, this is the best option. We can afford it. It means I get to nurse all the time and like I really wanted to nurse my baby. I felt like that was super important. And so I'd made all these decisions and then regretted it but never changed any of them. I was never like, well, maybe I shouldn't be a stay at home mom. I don't know, like, you know, I just was I had already made a decision, I just like I had to stick with it. And going from like doing all of that to being stuck in a 1500 square foot condo, it was very shocking. It felt like shell shock. And I didn't recognize my life. None of it was anything familiar. And I didn't recognize myself anymore. And I didn't like the new Suz at all. She was boring. She was not good at her job of being a mother. What was cool about her, like, I lost my edge, all of it. It was just such a stark difference between pre kid and post kid.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 50:38

Yeah. And you talked in the book about like, Man, if I had known, I would have done so much more.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 50:45

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 50:47

With my with my big life before. And I thought one of the things that you felt at that time that you know, the way that you described it was really interesting. You said, I was forced to toss aside my ambition. And I think for women who do live big lives and do big things, whatever they may be, you know, self defined, this is how I live my big life and my best life. And then I bring kids into the mix. I think a lot of times it's like, what does that mean? And how do I still live a big life and it seems like it was very polarized for you. It was like before and after and before was big. And after is small and before was agency and audacity and after was prison and being forced against your will kind of thing.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 51:32

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 51:33

And so that's really interesting. And do you think that kind of polarizing thought, do you think like was that depression talking? Do you see it differently now?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 51:42

Yeah, that was depression talking. And like some of the weird things that would happen is you wouldn't just grieve your past you grieved the future that was no longer possible.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 51:52

Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 51:52

So I would start to think of all the things I was going to miss out on like the Cannes Film Festival was coming up in France, I had no intention of being at this festival. I was not working towards the film that they were submitting for this festival. I had never been to the south of France, like there was nothing about this that was realistic. But now I had decided that Oh, my God, this is never going to be me. And I grieved that timeline that I thought could have existed that no longer was going to exist because of this tiny little 10 pound creature right here. Then as soon as I had the Oh, because of him, then I immediately felt guilty because it's not his fault, he didn't ask to be born.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 52:30

Right.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 52:30

But yeah, so it started like I was start to think like, oh my god, I'm never going to be this actress. I'm never going to do the thing. I'm never going to like be able to be the Peacekeeper and go out into the war zones and do the thing again. And like you just start grieving for a life you've never even had, but you start to fantasize about. And it happens very quickly. Like you can be like, I'm so happy right now. Like I'm having a good day, things are really great. The festival is coming up soon. And I can't be there, man. And like instantly, it's just like, I like I wanted to be sad. I needed to be sad, obviously. I mean, it's not me. It's the depression, right, but it's in your head, you feel like it's you. It was like grieving for my past and grieving for this, like future timeline that didn't exist.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 53:08

Yeah, well, and then I think at the end of the book, I love how it like culminates it when you're dropping them off at school, and Ronan is four, and you discover that you well actually I don't want to give away the end. But the thing that you said, Sammy coming into my life isn't the end of anything. It's the beginning of a new kind of life. And I get to decide how to shape it. And when I heard that, I felt like, when depression was talking, it was very much, I'm the victim here like I am being forced against my will.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 53:39

Yes.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 53:39

And then it seemed like, okay, now I know, I'm out of this, because now I believe I have agency, I believe that I get to shape my life. I don't feel like a victim of my circumstances anymore. I get to decide how I want this to look and how I want to set this up. Is that accurate?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 53:57

That's very well said, yeah, that's how it felt it you do feel like the victim and you don't realize that you have any control or power over this scenario. And then once you start to feel a little bit better, and you realize like, also, there's not only one way to do things, that's cool. Like I can be creative here I can be creative about how I am how I function as a mom. It's actually like one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I needed an outlet for my creativity and filmmaking became difficult as a young mom and filmmaking requires, first of all, you can't do it alone. You have to have a community of people you have to this village working on this film. Whereas writing, I could just sit by myself and I could work. So it allowed me to like express my creative needs, but also doing something that like fit in the world that I had created for myself, and that I was living in.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 54:48

So I just got creative, and now I love writing. I have a novel coming out. And now I'm like, Oh, this is how I get to be creative. I got back into acting, actually. So the bio that you read is, as you were saying, I was like wait, I'm not a former actor anymore, I actually decided to go back. Because I was like, when was I the happiest? When did I feel the most alive? I was like, oh my god, it's when I'm when I was on stage or when I was in front of a camera. So I just last month, I finished my first play in 10 years.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 55:14

Wow, congratulations.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 55:16

Thank you, it felt really cool to like, take that back. And to also feel like my kids get to see me do things that I'm really passionate about, which is something that I'm really proud of, because I want them to, they actually couldn't see the show, but they would see me like, work on my lines. And they would see me go off to rehearsal. And on opening night, they bought me flowers. And Sammy told me to shake a leg. And it was for them to be like okay, Mama, like Shake a leg goodbye and gave me the flowers and left. It was really nice that now they can like, I can come back to myself and they get to witness that, which I think is, I'm actually really proud that they get to see to see that.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 55:50

Yeah, I think in the book you talk about I forget exactly how you said it. But you said something about like coming back whenever Sammy's 10 and can actually like communicate and articulate his needs and can have a conversation with him. And so I think it's so interesting that now here you are 10 years later. Sammy's almost 10. I guess like if you're looking back on this experience, that kind of thinking about where you're at. Now, how are you feeling? And what are you noticing? And how do you feel about the overall everything?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 56:24

You have so much so much compassion and love and grace for like, young mama Suz, you know what I mean? Like you just look at her, because you have Google memories that come up, I look at them every morning, and I look at the time that I had with my kids. And I go you know what, I actually did a good job. That wasn't as terrible as in my head I had made it out to be look at what I'm doing here like, you know, it would be pictures of like us, you know, learning letters together or something. And I'm really glad that I gave myself the time to stay at home. I think that that was the right decision for our family. And so I'm looking back, I'm like, I still put in effort even though I felt like I didn't and I was doing a bad job. I like realize in hindsight, that I did a pretty good job. So there's that aspect.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 57:04

And then there's then I also realized that like, there's just so many chapters to a person's life, that it doesn't feel as urgent as it does in the moment. Like in the moment I was like, I will never act again. I'm 30 when I have the baby, okay, and I'm like, my life is over like, is it? I'm 38 now. And here I am like I'm traveling to Palestine this summer to do some work. The kids are old enough for my husband to just like, take care of the kids. I'm writing screenplays and I'm writing my novel. Like I got stuff going on that's mine. But I, in the moment, didn't think that that chapter was ever going to come like I felt like I was at the end of the book. And I didn't realize I was just in like chapter 12. So it's so hard to like, tell a person that when they're living it, you know, it just doesn't feel it's like it's like the idea of telling a person like, enjoy it. It goes by fast. And you kind of want to be like, Could you please never say this to me again? I hate that line. Because it's not a line that a person in the moment can appreciate. You just can't you just can't. Now I want to look at young moms and be like, Oh, I hope you enjoy it. But I don't want to say that to them. Because it's hard to receive.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 58:06

Well, I think that it adds to that shame and guilt because it's like, I'm not enjoying it. And I know it goes by fast. And now I feel terrible.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 58:13

Yeah, exactly.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 58:14

That was something that made it so much harder for me because I was like, I know that this season is so finite, you know when they're little but like, it's so hard. It's so hard too and I feel like I need to be enjoying every moment. And so then any moment I wasn't enjoying, I would get down on myself about and I would be really hard on myself about, yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 58:33

Yeah, so you just have to like, I have a friend who's 10 years older than me. And every phase that I'm in, I'll be like, and I just don't know, and I'm just figuring this out for the first time. And I'm just realizing this, it's so quick, you know, to like, tell her something. Again, 10 years older, she's very wise, she's Swiss. And she'll just smile and nod. And I wait for her to say something to me. And she goes, everything's happening as it's supposed to. You're right on time. You're right on time. And I think that's a really hard thing for us to take in, you know that like, it's okay. Some of those cliches are there for a reason, those cliches like they exist, because they're tried and true. Like we have these seasons that we go through, and it is going to be okay. And it isn't permanent. And it's just really hard to tell a mama that in the moment.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 59:13

I think anytime you're in a tough season, it's really hard to imagine that it's isn't going to last forever. And that it will get better. Yeah.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 59:19

Yes.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 59:21

Thank you so, so much for sharing this book with us and for coming on the podcast today. And talking to our audience, I know that everyone's going to learn a lot from you. And I think I mean, just like our conversation today, one of the things I loved about the book was that balance, it was enjoyable to read because you're so funny, but also it's a really heavy subject and so I think it's balanced so beautifully. Because you know, it's hard to talk about and just stay in it without a little bit of relief here and there, you know the comic relief that that you provide. So I think you have that beautiful balance. And so I recommend to everyone to go out and get the book Post Pardon Me, and we'll look forward to your next novel.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 1:00:06

Thank you.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 1:00:07

And is there anything else that you feel like you didn't get to say that you want to make sure that you share with folks?

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 1:00:15

I think the number one thing I like to tell mamas is two things. Number one, your depression is lying to you. It's just really important to remember that that's not you. And then the second thing is the only person that's going to be able to help you is you. There's people around you that can give you the help. But you have to first identify and be strong enough to say, I need help, and nobody else can do that for you. So I hope that these kinds of conversations and the book just kind of give you the enough love to say you know what, for my sake, and for the baby's sake, I'm gonna ask for help.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 1:00:46

Beautifully said, well, thank you so so much.

Suzanne Yatim Aslam 1:00:50

Thank you.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 1:00:50

And thank you everyone for tuning in. And we will see everybody next week.

Leanna Laskey McGrath 1:01:00

Thanks so much for tuning in to the Executive Coach for Moms Podcast. Please like, subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.