Rethinking our Expectations of Linear Career Paths and Navigating Unexpected Job Loss - with Jess Kitt

Leanna McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy, while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic, and certified executive coach.

Leanna McGrath  0:29  

Hi, everyone, welcome back. I can't believe it's December already. But I hope that you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. If that's a holiday that you celebrate, we only have one more month of 2023. And then it's in our past. That's crazy. So you may remember that two weeks ago, Jess and I spoke following her unexpected departure from her first executive role, where she found herself in a culture that didn't match her values and working for a boss who didn't recognize her value her contributions. If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend going back and giving it a listen. It was really such a beautiful and open conversation about her experience. And it'll give you more context. So we recorded our second conversation a week after we recorded our first one. And we'd planned to have it be kind of like a coaching conversation around what's next for Jess. But what we discovered once we got to talking is that there was still a lot to unpack around this experience. Jess is a super high achiever, and she likes certainty, linear paths. She's always pushing forward, always progressing moving to the next rung on the proverbial ladder. And so this event really rocked her world along with her worldview. And I really love how this conversation ended up. Because I can imagine that anyone who's used to achievement and success, who is suddenly let go from their job is feeling a lot of the things that just describes, and we really dive into them today. I really appreciate Jess's candor, her openness, and her honesty about this experience and about all of the thoughts and emotions that are coming up for her as she's processing the experience, because I really believe that she's putting words to what so many people have been experiencing recently, with so many companies downsizing, and people being let go from their jobs. If you're a high achiever who's been let go from your job, or if you have a friend or colleague who has, I really think you're gonna relate to this conversation.

Leanna McGrath  2:49  

Also, before we jump in, I just want to mention that I'm planning to host a group program in January for high achieving ambitious women to kind of kick off the year, on a good foot. If you listen to this podcast, I invite you to come join a community of like minded like valued women to start the year off strong together, we'll meet weekly and have an online space for connection so we can all support each other in our goals. As we head into the new year. I'll share more details and information in the show notes when it's ready. So please stay tuned. And I really, really hope that you'll join us. And now onto the show. Enjoy.

Leanna McGrath  3:32  

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the show. I am back this week with Jess Kitt, who you heard from last week. She talked about her experience work dealing with some difficult situations in her executive role. And it ultimately resulted in her departure from the company. And so today, we're going to be kind of reflecting on the last two weeks or two weeks or so out from when that happened. And when she received that news, and kind of looking at what's next for Jess, and we'll do a little bit of conversation, a little bit of coaching. I know there are a lot of folks out there who are between jobs right now with you know, all of the layoffs happening. And so I'm hopeful that this conversation is helpful for all of you. So hey, Jess, welcome back.

Jess Kitt  4:32  

Thanks. It's great to be back.

Leanna McGrath  4:34  

So let's go ahead and jump in. I would love to hear about what it's been like, what's been your process the last two weeks. I'm sure you're in a different place today than you were when we talked last week and then when you were the week before whenever you receive that news. So just kind of walk us through that.

Jess Kitt  4:53  

I think as someone who's less driven, high achieving person who definitely He was in a moment in my career where I was thinking about work more than I even consciously was making decisions around. The last two weeks have definitely been a moment where the brakes got slammed. And I think when anytime that happens, you take a deep breath, and then you start to unpack, oh, my goodness, I actually am very thankful for this moment, because I don't think I knew how much work was taking up different types of energy that I didn't even realize. So it felt like for about the first week, I was going through almost this, okay, I'm used to working a fair amount of time and a pretty intense amount of time. And also feeling like my energy output was at between eight and 10, at all moments of the day. And so the first week, I created this giant list of things to do around the house, and how can I, you know, make things as best as I could be at home and everything on my to do list that I had been putting off or allocating different time to, I just totally powered through, and then over the course of the past week, I think have started to take a breath, and experienced some, some sadness and some disappointment, and what the experience ended that was different than when I thought it would be. my to do list is right now. And so at a different stage than it was in a good way that's caused me to pause and process a little bit more around how I feel about it. Versus the first week was tasks, tasks, tasks. And it was thinking about what other people thought the experience was, What did my previous team members think about me? What did you know the people that were my peers think about my exit, right? All these outward perceptions. And then the past week, I've really been thinking about, how do I feel about it? What are the different things that I'm experiencing? And that's been really the past past week or so?

Leanna McGrath  7:01  

Yeah, it sounds like there was a bit of just kind of, like, I'm used to this level of output. So I'm just going to keep that up. And also, maybe a little bit of kind of buffering of putting off like having to deal with the feelings of it. I think that it's completely normal to do that in these situations. So we're you went like, hyper go through the to do list and then keep myself so busy, you don't have to do anything, someone else might be binging Netflix or eating all day or right or like different things, we these are kind of coping mechanisms that we have, as humans to kind of put off that or like not have to feel those, like really uncomfortable, not great feeling feelings, right? Absolutely. And

Jess Kitt  7:54  

it was it is really still uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to name, I've been working more on telling people which has helped me, it's helped me both feel a little less shame around how I feel about it, or what I'm concerned other people will think. And it was most challenging, telling my parents, which I did not think at the time it would be but as people, you know, I was raised in a household where I was always searching for the next thing, and how can I do something better and whether it was a trophy or a grade or academic program I was trying to get into and my parents were really supportive and are very supportive. So I almost felt like telling them about this experience was somehow going to disappoint them which it's funny as the later 30s adult I did not think would be something that I would still be fearful of. And that was, and it was was a really great conversation about career with my parents that actually we hadn't gotten the chance to talk about because when they were at this point in their careers, I was very young, right? So they wouldn't have talked to me about challenges they had with their management team or decisions that they made and changes in their career. So it was actually a I think oftentimes when you're feeling the most fear and when you express the most vulnerability, a lot of times you're able to explore different parts of people's experience that I would never have gotten the chance to talk to him about.

Leanna McGrath  9:19  

That's so interesting and makes so much sense. And I love what you said there, you know, when you're open and vulnerable. That's what breeds connection, right? That's what Brené Brown talks about all the time. And I think that idea of not wanting to disappoint our parents showing up always like it's so ingrained in us. I remember when I was working to start this podcast, it took like two and a half years for me to actually launch it and I was working with a coach and we uncovered I'm the oldest child and I've always felt like I needed to like set the example for my younger siblings and carry the family name I do I put all this on my shoulders. I'm sure some of it came from external but a lot of it I'm Sure, then like I internalize. And so I was so annoyed to find that that was one of the things that was really stopping me from putting my voice out there in the world because it was like, What if I say something that embarrasses my family? Or like, you know, what if I disappoint my parents by saying something like, contrary to their beliefs, or that kind of thing. And so it's interesting how that shows up. I think it's ageless, like stays with us probably forever, it just may be at a different degree.

Jess Kitt  10:26  

Absolutely. And I think it's something when I was talking to my parents about this, because I had mentioned to them I said, I was so nervous to tell you all of my parents are still together and celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary this year. So they really act together as a unit. So I was so nervous to tell them both. And it was so funny that they in a way where they didn't say this, but I got this sense from them that what are we doing that's causing you to feel nervous about telling us so it was also this moment where, oh, gosh, so we never want you to feel like you're disappointing us or nervous to tell us something. And I think a lot of the things that I've been sorting through and still sorting through right now are the fear of what other people will think about this, my part of the story, and I have this fear around what other people will think about whatever I choose from my next experience, so something that I struggle with a lot is fear of the unknown fear of not having a plan of how to address that unknown. Fear of I'll disappoint myself, or I'll disappoint others. So I've been processing a lot around. What's the worst case scenario that could happen here, right, what's the best thing that could happen? And not just being in a place of fear, but that's definitely something I'm in a moment of now that I'm through last week, there was a lot of, I think, sadness and disappointment in myself, and maybe grieving a little bit how things this chapter that ended. And now I think I'm moving through a little bit of a fear of am I going to make the wrong choice? Is this going to happen again? What does that look like? How do I do everything I can to avoid a possible next experience, which I also have another part of my brain that's saying, Well, you can't control everything. So I'm experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance around, I rationally know, I can't control all these things. I rationally know that I can only control how I show up and work that I do. And at the same time, I am still fearful that I will make the wrong choice. And I'm working through maybe some distrust of myself that I maybe I don't have the right instincts, maybe I somehow caused a lot of this to happen, which is what I'm processing through now.

Leanna McGrath  12:34  

Yeah, I'm curious about that, like, what is causing that mistrust? What is the belief there?

Jess Kitt  12:40  

I think what's causing the mistrust right now, when myself is still, in moments of I didn't totally see this coming. And I think of myself, and one of something that's really important to me about myself as having a strong sense of self and self awareness, and a strong sense of my relationships with other people. And whether those are positive or maybe relationships that are in a more challenging place. So I think part of what is causing this is the surprise of not seeing that this chapter would be closed in the way that it was. And how did I not see that coming? How did I not create a plan around that, to address that and to create a safety net for myself and for my family and my family unit? As you can tell, and maybe people listening to this really, I don't like surprises, I'm not a, Let's have a surprise birthday party, it causes me distress to actually even plan for graduates for other people. So I think this is a signal, hey, maybe you don't have the gut reaction, and your compasses a little bit off. And that's almost more concerning to me than how the experience and then because I feel like my center of gravity has been thrown a little bit in ways that make me uncomfortable.

Leanna McGrath  13:58  

So your compass is off, and you didn't see this coming? What is your expectation of yourself? Like, what should you have done?

Jess Kitt  14:07  

Oh, Leanna, that's such a good question. I don't know, in some ways what I could have done differently. I think that maybe that's part of what I'm struggling with, which is there must have been something that I could have done differently or done more of or less of, so that this wouldn't have happened. Probably because it's been so uncomfortable and in moments so painful for me professionally and personally. So I think I'm in this moment of in the hamster wheel of there must be something someone who had more experience in this role could have found a different path or there's someone who was better at this someone who was more self aware or was picking up signals, maybe this would have happened a lot differently. And or maybe it would have still resulted in the same end game. But the experience of it I would have been more aware of and maybe could have emotionally prepared myself more for that. I don't know Probably not a very good answer. But that's, that's probably my answer right now.

Leanna McGrath  15:04  

Well, it's interesting because it sounds like you're being really hard on yourself, and believing that there is something you could have done. And that if only you were better at something, if only you were a different person, if only you had more skills, If only all these things, something about you, right? If only you were more of something or less of something, then it wouldn't have gone down this way. And it's very interesting, because it seems like your brain is still like searching for there has to be something don't know what it is. And instead of not being able to find it, your brain isn't like, maybe there wasn't anything. Your brains like, there's something and the fact that I can't figure it out means something about me.

Jess Kitt  15:51  

I think that is the spot that I'm in right now. Yeah, yeah, I think that's accurate.

Leanna McGrath  15:57  

Are you at all open to the possibility that there is nothing you could have done differently?

Jess Kitt  16:03  

I am open to it. My husband and I have been processing this together, because he's been a huge support and champion been so great throughout this entire experience. It's interesting, he has a very similar perspective, articulated differently than you do. And I hear it. And it's challenging for me to accept and maybe this connects back to my fear, which is if I couldn't have done anything differently, is this going to happen again in the future? And I don't want to accept that. I think I probably should. Because again, I can't control the actions of anyone other than myself business or person or anything like that. But it's hard for me to accept, because I'm fearful that this could happen again. And I think all of those things are connected together for me.

Leanna McGrath  16:49  

Wow, so right now, it sounds like the two options are either that you could have done something differently, and you can't figure out how and you are somehow, you know, not good enough, not whatever enough, because you can't figure it out. But there is something so there's hope, or your other option is there's nothing else I could have done. And therefore it means that this is going to happen in every future experience.

Jess Kitt  17:12  

I think that's probably true. And I'm laughing because I understand, cognitively that there's lots of in betweens, but it feels like for me my brain is like with this is so those are the two realities, yeah, that you have to live in. And I think I'm trying to tell my inner self like, this doesn't mean it will happen every time. And I, I have just been back and forth, back and forth. And maybe anyone can, I don't know if you can relate to this, or anyone can. But I'll have moments where I feel really strong and saying this was not about me, there's probably not a lot I could have done differently. And then I'll have a moment of fear and anxiousness and say there must have been something that you could have done differently, there must be things that you can put into place to this doesn't happen again. And there's definitely things that you should have done differently, even though that's not totally a rational place of thought?

Leanna McGrath  18:06  

Well, I wonder if you could consider the idea that like your brain is trying to protect you right now. Like when your brain says, There's something you could have done, but you just don't know it yet. Then it's like, it keeps that hope alive, that you will someday figure it out. Right. And I think that your brains, like I know, she needs hope to keep going right now. Because this is like a really tough time. So like, maybe we can protect her with some hope. And on the other hand, it's like, trying to protect you from living this again, right? Like, it's like, this is very painful. I don't want her to have to go through this again. So therefore, I'm gonna scare the crap out of her and make her believe that this is gonna happen every time. So like, she just needs to not do this again.

Jess Kitt  18:55  

Yeah, that seems about right. And I've really been, think what's hard about this for me is I really been trying to let myself feel every part of this experience. And that includes being excited that I got to go to an extra gym class yesterday that I wouldn't have been able to go to. And then there's also this moment of feeling really sad as I talked to people about it, and people who are very close to me and have known different parts of this experience. So I feel like Leanna I'm trying to also do this formula in my mind, I'm recognizing, which is if you do this, and then you let yourself feel this and then you you'll be able to move forward quickly. And you won't have to feel this way anymore. So I'm trying to do it in a really healthy way, which again, I'm trying to follow the list. Here's what I should be doing to get through this and to get through it in a healthy, constructive way. That allows myself to heal and think about this experience in the way I choose to versus how others perceive it. But it's been really hard. It's been really challenging.

Leanna McGrath  20:00  

It's a really hard thing.

Jess Kitt  20:01  

I think part of this has been for me, I was in a really challenging work environment. And at the same time, I was still really excited about things I was learning. So incredibly so proud of the team that I had built and things I was learning from them, and I hope things that I was imparting on them. So there's also this element of things that's that were left undone and things I was really excited about. And I think that's been also hard, as I'll talk to friends who say, Well, I'm really happy for you, you know, you've kind of felt for a while that maybe things were maybe not in the best place where you were, and I and I, it's hard for me, because I can acknowledge Yes, that's true. And I also feel like yes, but I was also really happy with the team members I had, and it was, again, I had so much that I still have left to do and wanted to be able to do their get into a better place or, you know, whatever that might be.

Leanna McGrath  20:59  

Yeah, as you're saying that I was thinking about something we've talked about before about like two feelings existing simultaneously. Right. And like, two things can be true at the same time, like I can feel very disappointed, sad, upset about how this ended. And also, I can feel like I didn't really enjoy many parts of my experience. And I can feel very excited about what I was building and what I had left yet to build. And the parts about my job and the people who I really enjoyed working with like those two, I think it's like an end, right? That they exist simultaneously and then cause all kinds of turmoil and cognitive dissonance in our brains.

Jess Kitt  21:50  

Yeah, absolutely agreed.

Leanna McGrath  21:52  

So when do you think you should be ready to move on? Like, what is your expectation for yourself?

Jess Kitt  21:58  

So I have two schools of thought. And I feel I don't know, I don't know if this is the Gemini in me. But I have one element of my brain that's saying, you probably are going to be processing this for a long time, maybe forever, I don't know, there could be lots of little layers that you're pulling back. That also you're still learning about and whatever your next experience might be. And it triggers me in some way to go back and think about this experience, or go back and think about something I felt at the time. The other part of my brain so desperately wants this to be done. I don't want to carry any sort of baggage into or what my brain is what I feel is baggage into whatever my next experience is, I want desperately to make that the best experience possible to, in some ways prove to myself things that I've been questioning again, how did this how did this happen? And how can I do this differently next time? How can it be a better leader next time, I want to have all the solutions in place by the time I have my next experience because I want to do the best that I can there and be the best leader I can be. I know that that's not real. I know that that's not how my brain and person, and values are all intermingling together, that that's what my brain wants to happen. And I again, teeter back and forth between the two. And I think in my especially challenging moments, I go to the latter, which is to say, let's process this now. Let's get through this now let's do this now let's do the work now. So you don't have to worry about worry in air quotes worry about this in the future. So lots of layers.

Leanna McGrath  23:37  

And what if it was kind of the option that it takes some time? What if this isn't something that can be like power through? I don't know, I'm just throwing something out here. What if you do take it into your next opportunity? What does that option feel like?

Jess Kitt  23:53  

I think it probably feels uncomfortable. And the reason why it feels uncomfortable is that I still have shame that I'm working through around it, disappointment in myself. And that makes me uncomfortable. I think in a more positive way, it will hopefully help me be a more compassionate leader, and more self aware. But I think it also feels heavy right now it feels like a really heavy thing that I'm carrying around. So I would love to get to a place where it wasn't at the forefront of my mind most of the time. I would really love to be in a space where that was the case. So I think I probably need to acknowledge that no matter what I will always know that this experience happened. I will always feel things about it, whether they'll be negative or positive or both all of those things together. And I probably still am resisting like I don't I didn't want this to happen. I don't want to have this be how I feel right now. And I think I'm still resisting a lot of how I feel. And this happening.

Leanna McGrath  25:04  

Yeah, well, again, there's your brain trying to protect you again. So I think like, you know, obviously, we are not our brains, our brain is one component of us in terms of how we experience and process things that happen in the world. You know, our brains like to take the front seat to that. Right? And so yeah, it feels like your brain is doing a really great job of protecting your right now, from these very uncomfortable feelings.

Jess Kitt  25:34  

I think so I wish it wouldn't. I want to feel like I'm moving forward. And I probably need to accept that I'm maybe not as linear as I would like, I would like I'm a person who loves forward movement of failing forward, I love feeling like there's progress and action and inertia around things, whether it's work or in my personal life. So it's definitely uncomfortable to feel like I'm making progress. And I feel like in my, which is not true. Like, as I'm saying it out loud. I know that this is, I have coached team members on this. So I don't know why I'm personally struggling with it so much, which is, I feel like I'm making progress, progress in my mind is I shouldn't feel these things anymore. And so then I get frustrated with myself that I'll feel like I'm having a progress. I feel like I've named things I'm working on and reflecting on and and then I feel the next day, why would I just feel embarrassed telling that person that I thought I was through this? Why are you regressing? We've talked about that brain? We've talked about that that's okay to feel that thing. And that does not define you. So I think I also feel this, I only want to be making forward progress, which in my rational mind is everyday working to feel less and less of something. I'm not saying that's a healthy coping strategy, but it's definitely something I'm struggling with not feeling this push and pull with back and forward movement.

Leanna McGrath  26:57  

Yeah. So Jess, I think you have very accurately described just about every high achieving woman's belief system and mindset, which is always be moving forward, always be progressing. And anytime we encounter a perceived setback, we immediately start beating ourselves up and getting down on ourselves and telling ourselves that we aren't doing it right, and that we're failing. And I think that when we do that, sometimes, ironically, it kind of keeps us in place and keeps us from moving forward, which is the thing that we want to be doing, it kind of blocks us, at least it definitely slows us down. Because we're putting so much energy into resisting our reality of how we're feeling and beating ourselves up for not doing it right or doing it fast enough. Instead of channeling that energy into getting curious about what's actually holding us back from moving forward. It kind of makes me think about parenting, and how we often hold these expectations of our children of constant forward progress, and how we have a tendency to kind of freak out about anything that might be considered a regression, when often that's just part of the human experience. Sometimes we have to take steps backward before we can move forward.

Jess Kitt  28:19  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Leanna McGrath  28:20  

If we think about it from that lens, I guess what I'm curious about is like, like, does that work for you? If someone like if your boss or a coach or a parent or whoever says like, Jess, here's the recipe to success. Step 12345. Don't veer from it, follow it. Go. How does that work for you?

Jess Kitt  28:40  

I think the way that you're saying that is how most of my life that I feel like I've operated, you know, I like directions. I like structure. I love to ideate. But I when I ideate, I want to get to know it's going towards x goal, or x path or x achievement. So I think that that's definitely how I prefer and what's comfortable for me, maybe and that's why this experience has been so uncomfortable, because I felt like I was on a path. And that path has now just taken a different direction that I didn't have a plan for then therefore reveals, again, elements of feeling uncomfortable and scared around what's going to happen next. And what do I think of myself? Yep.

Leanna McGrath  29:29  

Yeah, I was just thinking like, if you follow steps 1234 And like you were supposed to be at five now but something changed. That must feel really kind of upsetting or frustrating. Like I did everything I was supposed to do here. What the hell like I'm off the path now.

Jess Kitt  29:45  

Yeah, it does feel really frustrating. It feels frustrating. It feels disappointing. I definitely feel moments where I'm angry. You know, I think definitely moments where I think we'll sort of model then as a woman and an executive role am I setting out for other people, you know, I thought if I did this 123, I could help lift up the next generation of leaders and show that you can follow XYZ path. And it will result in what you want for your career. And that's definitely not what happened, at least at this moment in this scenario, which has also been frustrating as someone who again, I pride myself on being a high achiever and getting along others with others well, and being a positive collaborator. So that's been really challenging.

Leanna McGrath  30:44  

And it sounds like, kind of some of these ideas feel very uncomfortable. The idea that there isn't a linear path, the idea that there's nothing you could have done differently to change the outcome here. And like, what keeps coming up for me is kind of this like desire to control the outcomes. And this kind of like, desire for certainty and guarantee that like, if I follow this path, this is going to be the outcome. If I show up at work this way, this is going to be the outcome. And it feels like this event has thrown those beliefs just out the window for you. And that seems to be very, like you said, like feeling like the compasses off or kind of feeling off kilter. I think that makes sense that you're feeling that way. If kind of all your life until this point, you believe that like, here's the path, follow this linear path. And then here's the outcome. Here's how you deal with difficult boss, like, do this ruminated, like, as we talked last week, right, like figure out how to make sure that that other person feels to be fair favorably, and that you show up in the perfect way that is going to make them have confidence in you. And then like you believe that all these things are within your control. This experience sounds like it's kind of maybe there's some realization that your brain probably is not wanting to accept that there may be some other options to that truth.

Jess Kitt  32:26  

I would agree. I think that I think I'm seeing a new reality that I had, that I know exists in the world, right? I understand that I can't control their people. And at the same time, you don't believe it? I don't believe it. Yeah, I really don't. Which is really hard. For me. It's, it's, it's really frustrating. And then there's this other element of like, feeling disappointed in myself, like, Okay, well, you can understand reality that you've also talked to other people about, but it's not true for you, right? It's not, if you were better or different than that would, that wouldn't have been the case for you. So it also is like another element of being disappointed as myself as a leader and a woman being like, wait a second, you know, you've given this advice to other people, why do you think you're so special that this is unique to you, but I am, and I don't feel like that is the right for me. And I, I, my brain is still really stuck. So I appreciate you naming that, like, hey, a brain, your brain is one element of this, and it's trying to protect you. Because I am definitely wanting to sort through this, so that I can be more holistic and how I view myself because now I'm, you know, I think through this conversation and through other reflections, I'm realizing that if I don't change this mindset, then I'm constantly going to be setting myself up to measure success through someone else's eyes, if I don't figure this out and change this mindset, because that was also really hard for me as in this experience. And I'm disappointed in myself that I still feel this way that I have now for years let someone else dictate almost fully what I perceive my own success as an unusually for me that's attached to my team members, and then also attached to what my boss values and how my boss values me. And what what they then give me whether it's a promotion, or an extra project, or whatever that might be. And I feel like that level of giving someone else that control over how I perceive my success, has made this experience much more challenging and much more difficult. And sad and hard, because I'm realizing that because I gave someone else that power and that choice over my self perception. That's why this probably felt so much more crushing than it needed to be versus what I hear you saying, which is how can you let yourself feel things and also have your own perceptions of your own abilities and success. So that's something I need to work on. A lot. I think

Leanna McGrath  34:59  

I think the A couple of things that I am noticing as you're talking are, first of all that measuring yourself through someone else's eyes is, I don't know if I would say a universal feeling, but pretty universal to women and the way that we're socialized, at least here in the United States. That, I mean, if you look at the media, like, literally, there's constantly a commercial, telling you how to do everything like or a magazine article telling you how to have a better relationship, how to make your skin look younger, how to please your partner, how to show up at work, everything is like telling women how to do everything inherent in that is that we don't know how to do it, that we can't figure it out for ourselves. And we need someone else to tell us that and measure it for us measure our success, right like that, we need a quiz to measure our success on how good of a partner we are, or how good and bad we are, or whatever, right? There's so many reinforcements of that belief throughout our society. And so in our socialization, we learn as women that like other people get to determine our value and our measurement of success rather than than us and actually, a few episodes back in my conversation with Ally, we talked about this a lot about kind of taking ownership of how we measure our own success. So that's one thing I noticed.

Leanna McGrath  36:29  

Another thing I noticed is that there is a lot of double layering here that you're having. So it's like, not only do you feel disappointment in this unfortunate situation that happened, you also are piling a lot of shame on top of that of like, I shouldn't feel this way I know better. I shouldn't be doing this and kind of additional judgment and shame. And so a lot of times, I think that that's kind of the first step to moving forward. And it comes a lot into that acceptance, but kind of removing that layer, because that's the most painful one. And that's why a lot of times, we're so afraid to feel our emotions, because we have always added on that level of resistance and shame on top of it. So we think that like feeling disappointment about something feels exponentially more than what the actual just like disappointment of something is. Because not only are we disappointed, but we're also disappointed in ourselves. And we feel shame about it. And we don't want anyone else to know all this extra stuff that we pile on top. So like the disappointment itself is painful, but manageable, but like we associate it with so much. So way more painful. And our brain thinks it's way more painful, because we've kind of attached all that together. And so I just hear you a lot saying like, I wish I didn't feel this way I shouldn't feel this way. And I know better. And so I'm sure that's adding a whole nother layer and level of shame to this experience for you.

Jess Kitt  38:08  

I think that's all really true. That's all really true. Really lands with me.

Leanna McGrath  38:12  

So as we wrap up, what are you taking away from the conversation today?

Jess Kitt  38:18  

I think a couple of things. One, I think that I have more work to do on thinking about this linear path that I thought I was on or that I think I should be on and that I need to work through. Why do I think it should be linear? And why do I feel like that's something that where does that belief come from? Why am I choosing to think that way? And I think helping myself understand that. So if I want to choose a different way to frame what I think progress should be an air quotes, I want to better understand that about myself. I think second, it's been helpful for me in this conversation to name what are the multiple things I'm feeling at once. And so I think I want to keep doing that. I think I've been trying to push forward through. Okay, you felt a day of disappointment. Let's now go do this next step. Let's go. Now create. Maybe you're angry today and maybe the next day you've accepted and, you know, I think that again, this is attached to that path that I want. I want to myself to be on and that this path that I feel like should exist that probably doesn't that I need to both figure out why I'm on it. And then also accept a little bit that it's not as linear as I would like it to be.

Jess Kitt  39:33  

I am picturing like you've created a Trello board or an Asana list of like the seven stages of grief and you have like dates or dates associated with each of them.

Jess Kitt  39:45  

That's exactly right, Leanna. That's exactly right. Because to your point earlier in the conversation, I know that that's not right for everyone. That's never something that I would tell someone else to do. But I also feel like it should work for me. I think I shouldbe the exception. And I don't know if that's ego. I don't know where that comes from. I don't like maybe that's my brain trying to protect myself. I don't think there's still probably a lot I need to think about and work through there.

Leanna McGrath  40:10  

No, because you've been told all your life, you can do anything. And so we believe that the human experience doesn't apply to us for your above it in some way. I, I have gone through that, too. I still believe that in it about things. And I realized like, oh, yeah, that applies to me too. And, but it almost feels like accepting that is like we're downgrading ourselves in a way from like, the superhuman that we believe that we could be, and that we believe that we were to like, Oh, I'm just a human, like how disappointing that's not enough. But the reality is, is like we we are by nature, right? Absolutely.

Jess Kitt  40:50  

Absolutely. Yeah. So I think lots to still lots to still process and unpack for me.

Leanna McGrath  40:57  

And then you said that third thing?

Jess Kitt  40:58  

Oh, I think that third thing was you mentioned earlier in the conversation, which I think I need to think more about my expectations on have I finished processing all of this by the time I get into my next opportunity. And one element of my brain wants to totally be done with us and have this chapter be closed. Before I go into my next opportunity that I don't think I've thought enough about but that's probably not it's, I shouldn't say probably it's not realistic. I don't think that that's realistic. And I also don't think that that means that's bad. I think in my mind, it has been so far in my crossing, you are going to finish this now, Jess, your repayment is to do XYZ before your next opportunity. So you don't have this chapter or this weight or this luggage or whatever carrying into your next experience. And I don't I think this conversation recognizing that's it's probably both not healthy and not realistic. And therefore I need to figure out how to do this more and accepting probably more the reality that I will probably be processing it for a while, if not a long time. And that's also not bad. I think I probably put a bad label on that. I like to take that sticker off a little bit.

Leanna McGrath  42:07  

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so so much for sharing yourself with us today. I know that there are so many people who are going through this experience or who have gone through this experience, who are going to relate to a lot of the feelings and thoughts that you have named that maybe haven't been all the way in brought to consciousness yet for folks, or maybe it has and they're like, Oh, yes, I just was thinking about this. And so I hope everybody knows that. You're not alone. And I hope you know you're not alone, Jess, that there are lots of people feeling this way. And we would love to hear from anyone who is going through this or who has gone through this who resonates with Jess's story. So thank you all so much for tuning in. And thank you so much, Jess. Really appreciate you.

Leanna McGrath  42:57  

Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like, subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care

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