Setting Moms Up for Success: Maternity Leave Insights for Leaders & Teams - with Jennifer Atzenhoffer

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:08  

Welcome to the executive coach for moms podcast where we support women who are attempting to find balance and joy while simultaneously leading people at work and at home. I'm your host, Leanna Laskey McGrath, former tech exec turned full time mom, recovering perfectionist and workaholic and certified executive coach.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  0:29  

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for joining me this week. I am so excited to introduce today's guest. It is a long time friend of mine and former colleague, Jennifer Atzenhoffer. We work together at my very first tech startup, and she was just amazing and was a leader on our team. And I loved working with Jen, and then we've been friends ever since. So she has been on three maternity leaves that were all very different, and I thought it would be really interesting, as she is just returning from her third, to have her on and just pick her brain a little bit about those different experiences and how they were for her and what she's learned and what we can learn. So welcome, Jen. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  1:15  

Thank you. Happy to be here. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  1:16  

So happy to have you. Can you kind of start off by telling everyone just a little bit about yourself and your background, where you are in the world. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  1:23  

Yeah, absolutely. So I live in Texas, and I have been in my current company for about six years now, in a management position for about half of that time, and just got back from my third leave with my little boy, Ezra, so he's five months old. The work that I do outside of being his mom and then having two other kids is I work on a training and enablement team, so we support all of the internal new hires for our Client Services Department, and then also all of the enablement. So at technology companies, things are always very quickly moving, and updates are always coming out, so we make sure that our employees know what those updates mean for our customer base. So a lot of training, which is very applicable when you're talking about parenthood and motherhood, because that is so much of what we do in our day to day, kind of outside, outside of my eight to five as well. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:21  

Awesome. Yeah. And how's the little one? Five months old? So, so cute. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  2:26  

He's good. He's doing good. He's so chunky and just like the chillest baby. I have told people, I'm glad that he was our third because if he would have been our first baby, we would have had like, four or five by now. So I'm glad that, you know, God, spaced them out in the order that he did, because we needed a really chill baby for for baby three. So it's just so much fun and always just happy to be here. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  2:53  

Yeah, I remember when Adela was a baby, and I took her to an appointment, and and the nurse was like, this is the kind of baby that you have first, and then they trick you into thinking that if you have another one, they're going to be just like this.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  3:10  

Yes.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:11  

And they're not.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  3:12  

Yes exactly. So 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:15  

Yeah. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  3:15  

He has been such a gift for us. I mean, the transition to three has been hard, but not he's been the easiest part of the transition at three, ironically. So.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:24  

What's been the hardest? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  3:25  

I think just having two older kids that are in other activities, you know, like, life doesn't stop whenever you add someone else to the mix. So keeping all of those balls juggling while managing recovery and his schedule, whatever it may be as a third born, that's probably been the hardest, hardest part for us. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  3:47  

Does he just kind of go along for the ride, for all of the activities and whatever the schedule that everybody else is on?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  3:55  

For the most part? Yeah. I mean, Jacob and I have really tried to intentionally slow down in this season. I think we were too busy back in the spring, which is why he came five weeks early, which I'm sure we'll talk more about, as it relates to going out on leave and all of that here in a second. But we knew going into the newborn season that we wanted to just dial back all the activities that the other kids were doing and say no as kind of a default, rather than saying yes as a default. And so that intentionality has been very helpful for us, and then we're just slowly adding things in as they feel right, but we try to divide and conquer as much as we can, just to keep him out of his car seat, because otherwise he would think that's his home.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  4:42  

Yeah. Well, I would love to just kind of hear a little bit about each leave, like, what were the circumstances surrounding it? I know they were all so different in terms of duration and also your position at work and whether or not your partner was able to take time and things like that. So where would you like to start with it? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  5:02  

Yeah, we can start with this one. It's definitely the freshest in my memory. So we had Ezra back in May of this year. He was five weeks early, so I had done some prep at work, I think. And I realized as it was happening, like, Oh, I'm feeling the urge to nest. Like that's what that's what this is. And so just recognizing that and calling it what it is, when no one else sees that urgency, and you're feeling like, I have to get this stuff in order at my house, but also at at work, that is normal, you know? And we really only talk about nesting in the concept of like our home, but it's so much more than that when you're a working parent also.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  5:44  

So I was feeling that urge to nest, and I had done a little bit of prep work. Thankfully, the day before I had him, I had gone through and done a refresh of like, okay, we're now, like, a month out, roughly, I'm gonna go just look at this stuff. And that ended up being very, very timely, because the next day I had him, this was the really second time that I'd be coming back to the same position, because my second leave that I had, I was coming back to a brand new position. So I had a lot of projects that were in flight on this one. A lot of you know, there's just always a lot going on so and a decent sized team to support in my absence. So when Ezra came early, it was, I think I spent like six hours in the hospital trying to close up all the loose ends.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:36  

Like while you were in labor, or while?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  6:38  

No, definitely after labor, yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  6:41  

Okay.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  6:41  

They didn't give me any of the good drugs for labor, because they knew I was gonna have a C section. And I'm like, but I'm gonna have a C section. Can I get the drugs now? So anyway, it ended up working out, and I was, my goal was to leave the hospital and be just totally like, done and on leave at that point, and he was in the NICU. So it was honestly a good way to kind of fill the time, since he was not there in the room with us. But we had 20 weeks. My husband works for the same company, and he got 12 weeks. So we intentionally, like he did, two weeks of PTO at the beginning, to help me with recovery, and then we saved his leave for the end, just to delay starting daycare and really keep him home with us as as long as possible. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  7:25  

Nice. So between the two of you, you had about an eight, eight month leave. That's awesome. And how was that? I know that is your longest leave that you've taken so far. So how was that for you? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  7:37  

It was good. I mean, I think, as anyone who's ever been a full time parent can attest, it can be very isolating to be home with a little one all day, and my older two were in school, which honestly was extremely helpful, because it just allowed me to focus on on Ezra and get that time with him without any distractions or places to go. You know, I would really try to group all of our errands and things to be at the end of the day when we were already going to be out picking up the older two kiddos from school. So I mean, I was super grateful for the time. I know that it is such a privilege to be able to take that long away from work, but it is a very long time away from work, and I think around week 14, I was feeling okay. I'm ready to go back, but I still have six weeks to go, and I'm glad that I have six weeks to go. You know, I'm so grateful for that, but in that six weeks that followed, I feel like I mostly just built up anxiety about going back because kind of past that point of, yep, we're good. I feel ready to go back. And then I almost started going in the opposite direction, but thankfully, the literally, the last day of my leave, I just had this moment where the switch kind of flipped and, Okay, I'm ready to go back. Let's do it. We've got Saturday, Sunday, and I'm gonna go back on Monday. So I really feel like, for me, at least 14 weeks might be the sweet spot on time away.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  9:11  

Yeah, well, as a very like type, a person who is always on top of your work and enjoys working right, like, that's a big part of what brings you joy and fulfillment. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  9:24  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  9:25  

I think that makes sense. I mean, I remember not to skip around too much, but I remember your first one, when we were working together, and it was much shorter, and I think it was around eight weeks that you were like, I'm ready to re engage. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  9:38  

Yes, yes, which there was a lot to that. I think I definitely had postpartum depression and stuff with my first baby, and so work is what felt normal, especially going from zero to one. I think it's different going from one to two or two to three, but that zero to one transition is really special and hard in its own way, because it is there's just no way for you to prepare. And so having that familiarity of your work and your day to day, and again, like being able to communicate with someone who also happens to speak English in full sentences is really, really helpful. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  10:17  

Yeah. So for this one, when you returned to work after five months, you said that you were ready. So what was it like in your return to work? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  10:29  

It was a fire hose. I mean, not so much with the first leave, probably because it was so short, being eight weeks where I was fully out, and then I had four weeks of part time. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  10:40  

Part time. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  10:41  

Which was very helpful for getting back into it. Maybe I'll revise what my ideal situation would be. Maybe it's 14 weeks full time and then another four weeks of part time, just to slowly intake that information and get back in the groove. Because with the last two leaves being out for 14 weeks and then 20 weeks and coming back full time right away, it is just a fire hose of information for a couple of weeks, and I knew that going into this leave that that it would be that way, so I wasn't surprised about it, but it still is a little daunting to think about, especially when you're at a company that moves very quickly. And you know, if you're gone for more than a week at a time, you should expect there's going to be some big changes. So to really compile that with 20 weeks worth of work and changes is, is a lot. I always kind of compare it to when you're catching up on a season on Netflix or something, and they say, you know, last season on blank and then they run through all the things that have happened. That's kind of what it's like. You just watch the recap of of all the work that's been done, which is cool, but you know, you've got to remember all those changes, because your mind will still be stuck from when you went out on leave. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  11:57  

And then, I think for a lot of women, especially in that zero to one transition, but maybe in others as well, there's kind of this feeling of like, I don't want to let down my company, and I want to make sure I, like, continue to add value here, and so I want to get caught up as much as possible. And then I learn all these things. Are there any feelings for you of kind of like, like, FOMO, or like, oh, man, I wish I hadn't missed that. Or like, does that impact my standing at the company, or anything like that for you? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  12:27  

Yeah, that's a great question, and I think that is so dependent on the culture of the company that you're at. I've definitely worked with people who have been at other companies and had really negative experiences as they were transitioning out on leave, and that is not at all the case where, where I work, which, again, I realize is such a huge privilege. There are certainly trips that happened and team get togethers that happened that I wish that I could have been part of. But you can always make that stuff up later, whereas this time in life is so short that it's worth it. You know, it's worth it to miss the one or two team. In my case, I'm fully remote, so the one or two times that I would have traveled during the time that I was out to just make those up at a at a later time, so to speak. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  13:17  

Yeah, yeah. I always think like, those things will continue to happen.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  13:21  

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  13:21  

So it's like, you might have missed that one that everyone's talking about that was so great, but like, you can go do another one.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  13:27  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  13:27  

But, yeah, that kind of newborn time is finite, and as you saw twice already, how quickly it goes, you know? And then you can't do it again. I mean, unless you want to have some more kids, but you can't do it again with that child.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  13:41  

I've loved having, Ezra is almost like a little clone of Eli. So I try not to tell Eli that too much, but it just feels like, Oh, this is Eli as a newborn. I'm getting to redo some of your newborn things, which is has been really fun because I have the biggest perspective on Eli, given he's our oldest, and so just to see a little baby that looks just like him, maybe a little bit chunkier, is, is really fun. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  14:11  

Yeah. So let's go to the second one, if we want to kind of work backwards. The second leave was, you mentioned 14 weeks and you had a slightly different situation. You're at the same company, but they had a different policy at the time, and you had a different kind of work situation, right?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  14:28  

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  14:29  

Walk us through that a little bit. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  14:30  

Yeah. So the second leave was definitely my favorite for a couple of reasons. And I know most people wouldn't recreate this on purpose. It's just the way that it kind of worked out. I got promoted maybe two months before I was going to go out on leave. So we decided, old manager, new manager me, that the best approach I was in a client facing position at the time, but the best approach would be to just wind down before my leave, all my accounts, transition accounts, do all the the transition period stuff, and when I go out for leave, basically when I come back, I will start in that new role. So it was just the cleanest break that you can imagine for me, for my clients, it was, it was perfect, because nobody was being temporarily transitioned to another account manager. So I loved that, but obviously that's that timing is not going to work out most of the time for people. And then just the the 14 weeks that I had away was very helpful in separating me from that old position. You know, a lot of times when you transition roles at work, you're kind of doing both things for a while, or you may struggle separating from that team in one way or another. And I didn't have any of that because I was physically away for so long, and then just coming coming back into like a fresh experience, new onboarding, new manager, all of that. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  15:58  

Did it feel like you were starting a brand new job when you came back. I mean, you kind of were right?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  16:03  

Teah, yeah. I was in a new team, new manager, same department overall, but totally different focus, having moved from an account management CSM type position into managing a team for training and enablement. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  16:18  

Yeah, and I guess I'm curious, because I know that this is a question that women have asked, like I've seen in different moms groups and women's groups and things about I have this opportunity for advancement, and also I am expanding my family. Does it make sense to do that at the same time, right? And I think that sometimes we think, like, if I take on a bigger role, it's going to be more responsibilities. And I'm also, you know, taking on more responsibilities with another baby. So how am I going to manage all of that? So I'm curious number one, how you made that decision, and was it a factor, like, did you have that thought of, well, you know, we're going from a family of three to a family of four. Does it make sense to take this new role on at this time, or was it not a consideration? And then, kind of, how was it for you having a new family member and having a new team and role at the company at the same time? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  17:19  

Yeah, it's definitely something that I look at more now with three kids than I did moving from one to two and also just being at a different level in the company. I mean, I felt like at the time, going from an individual contributor to a manager that felt like, yeah, no problem, was not really a consideration of, am I going to be missing out on things with my kids moving from that role to this one, but now that I'm in a more senior manager position, and the next step up for me would be director, if I were to stay on this path, that is something that I think about. And with each step up now comes more travel, more responsibilities, maybe more meetings where I can't, you know, have as much flexibility with going to stuff at the kids school or certain activities, but generally speaking, I think it does go back to the culture at your company. And I'm very, very lucky to work at a company where work life balance is a priority up and down the ranks. So if I were at a different company, I'd probably look at it a little bit more closely than I do at my current one. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  18:31  

Yeah. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  18:32  

In terms of how it actually played out with that transition to the new role, it was a role that was also new to the company, so I wasn't back filling for someone. So we had a very slow ramp up, because these were things that there hadn't been a manager over before, like the director had just been spinning up the team and, you know, doing what had to be done. So it was the first time that we were really able to expand what this role needed to be.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  19:00  

Nice. Is there anything else about this one that you think is important to share about the second one? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  19:06  

I don't think so. I mean, it was a great it was a great leave. We such a sweet time in our lives, and we always knew, you know, we wanted a baby girl, and we had waited longer for her, and so just to have her with us. It was really best case scenario all around including recovery. You know, everything was just very, very smooth. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  19:27  

You've had 3 c sections, right? Yeah, and your recovery was smooth on the second. That's awesome. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  19:33  

Yes. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  19:34  

Awesome. So let's go to the first one, and that was when we were working together and in a tech startup environment that was a little bit different. And also, how many years ago was that? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  19:45  

It was almost eight years ago.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  19:47  

Eight years ago. My gosh, wow. So the times were a little bit different in terms of, you know what the average leave is. And you also had someone that you were working with, myself, who had no experience with having babies, right? And none of us really did. I think you were one of the first ones in our office that had a baby. So, yeah, what was it like? What was that one like? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  20:11  

That one was, I mean, the birth was emergency C section, so kind of, I'll say traumatic, and I mean that in the lightest way possible. Maybe there's a better word to use out there, but it wasn't the plan that we had for the birth. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:26  

And you like to plan.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  20:28  

Yes, yes.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  20:30  

And you are always amazing at making sure that you execute the plan that you have according to the plan that you've created. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  20:37  

Yes, and that didn't happen, which was a good first lesson in motherhood and being a parent is that things are not going to go to your plan. But I had eight weeks with Eli where I was home full time, and then the four weeks where I was back part time remote, which again even being remote was kind of a special circumstance at that time, so working out of my my house. And what's odd about that leave is I feel like I have more vivid memories from that leave, and I think it's from just all the change that was happening. I have a lot of memories, and it feels like, you know, I have 14 weeks of memories in this eight week time period that I had with him, whereas with our second and even our third, it's like, yeah, I have, I have memories, but I had over twice the amount of leave, in some cases, with the second or third baby. So I mean, the transition was really hard for me. And I know they say when your your birth plan doesn't go to plan, that makes you more likely to have some of the postpartum depression or anxiety things pop up. And that was very prevalent for me early on with Eli, in the first four weeks or so, and then I hit this new plateau of, yeah, I think, I think I'm good, I think I'm past that. And ironically, wasn't until this leave with Ezra that I was having some anxiety issues, kind of in that around the 14 week period, up until right before I went back to work, a couple weeks before, and I ended up going to see my doctor and say, Hey, this just isn't normal for me, like I am just fixated on things and worrying about things in ways that I typically would not. And so she went through asking me some questions, and in that process, I realized I actually think I had PPD the full first year that I had Eli. I just didn't realize it. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  22:42  

I have this talk about vivid memories. I have this very vivid memory of seeing an old coworker of ours in the airport. I was going to a conference, and he was also going to a conference, and Eli was 11 months at this time, and he the the person I saw the airport, he said, you know, how's it going? You know, I haven't seen you since you've had the baby. How's the transition been? And I said, things are good, and I meant it. And that time really stands out to me, because it was the first time that I actually meant it and truly felt like we had adjusted as a family, that Eli was doing good, that I was doing good, and so that conversation has always been this like pivot point for me when it comes to adjusting to parenthood. And I've always remembered that random conversation in the airport, and then, you know, just a couple months ago, meeting with my doctor and her going through different sets of questions with me, I now look at that conversation differently. I think that was my body, you know, I was starting to wind down on breastfeeding, and there are some natural adjustment things that happen, and your recovery takes a while. And, you know, just the laundry list of things as a new mom, and especially a first time parent. But it was truly that whole first year, and I, I look back and wonder and wish that I would have pursued help. I think. You know, I thought, because I wasn't at this really desperate state that I was at in the beginning that, oh, you know, we're good now, like I must be good, because I'm not walking around crying for no reason that I can actually point to, but that it doesn't have to be at that state in order for you to seek help, I guess is has been my takeaway. So you know that was seven years ago, and just having that revelation a couple months ago with our third it brings it full circle, I guess. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  24:43  

Yeah, well, it's interesting because, I mean, we obviously worked really closely together, but I like, I don't remember, and of course, at that time in my life, I didn't know really what PPD was. So like, would I have noticed that more at this point? Probably, maybe. But I don't know I just like, I remember being like, man, like, noticing how well you seemed to be adjusting. So from the outside, it seemed like you kind of had it all together. You were like, on top of everything. You weren't like, dropping things at work. I don't remember you bursting into tears at work. I guess, like, what I'm thinking about is just like, how maybe some of our top performers like I always think about, how can I as a leader, make sure to support my team, and how can folks who are listening, you know, what can they take away to better support their team? Is that, like, when you have such a high performer like you, you're able to really, kind of not show that, right, like, it's not really recognizable. And so maybe for leaders to, I don't know, like, what are your thoughts about that? Or, like, what would have been helpful at that time? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  25:56  

Yeah, it's a great question. I think for me, what comes to mind is, I don't know that you would have seen it at work. I think it was probably more outside of work. And you know, my spouse and even Eli, in some cases, that didn't get the best of me, because that energy was being spent at work. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  26:18  

Yeah, and so you said, bursting into tears, like when you say they weren't getting the best of you. What do you mean? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  26:25  

I would say, like with Eli. And part of this goes back to, I believe, the amount of leave that I had just knowing him as a baby, like knowing his tics, knowing his cries. I had friends who were stay at home moms, and they're like, Oh, this is her tired cry, or this is her hungry cry. I had all of his cries sounded the same to me because I wasn't in a place to be able to notice that nuance, if that makes sense. And so I think part of it is, you know, not being at my best, mentally, emotionally, and being able to intake like someone else's emotions, I couldn't really process them. But then also the leave time, because I physically had less time with him, I don't know that I had the opportunity to learn what those cries were. So that's just one example, but I think as it relates to Eli being a baby, it was probably more around knowing him as a baby, and then in terms of relationship with my spouse, it was a difficult time for us as we were adjusting to parenthood. And again, I think if I would have been able to seek help with medications, and you know that doctor's appointment kind of thing, that maybe that transition would have been easier on me and therefore easier on my spouse.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  28:00  

Yeah, yeah. Well, I also, I can't help but think about, like, when you say about, they know, their babies different cries, and I don't, I think that kind of comparison, did it bring up guilt? Was it like, you know, they get to do that, and I, and I don't, and like, anything about, you know, like feeling guilty that about that, because I think that a lot of times when we are transitioning to motherhood and we don't know what we're doing because it doesn't come with, like an onboarding guide or, or an enablement team to help us, then we kind of look around and we're like, Oh, I'm not doing that. Like, should I be doing that? Am I doing it right? And especially, I think, as people who are such high achievers and like, used to being really good at things. It's like, I remember whenever you transition into your first management role, and this is common for people who get promoted internally, where it's like, you're so good at your job, and then you start this new role, and you're like, feeling like, oh my god, like, I don't know what I'm doing. I feel terrible at my job, like I feel like I'm failing every day. Because before I started this job, I was so good at everything that I did, and so I think a lot of times that applies to motherhood for us, because -

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  29:20  

Definitely, yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  29:21  

-it's like we like being good at things, and we're so used to being good at things, and then that first baby comes along, and there's just nothing that can prepare you for it, you know, to make you really good at it. It's just, you know, learning it and practicing. And so I think like at that beginning time, there's a lot of feeling like, Am I doing this right? You know, maybe assumption that I'm doing it wrong, because it's not to the level that I am used to hold, you know, the standard I'm used to holding myself to. So I just wonder, like, is there, was there any of that for you? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  29:57  

Yeah, for me, it was mostly confusion about I just didn't even know. I had no context. So what do you mean, they have different cries? So that was I was mostly confused. And it wasn't until I had Ellie, and I was home with her longer, and I was in a better, better state, mentally and emotionally. And I again, just one example, but I learned her cries, and I'm like, oh yes, this is what that means. And I do think that was one of the reasons that I was so anxious to get back to work after eight weeks. I mean, I don't even remember that, but that sounds like something I would have said back then. I was not ready to get back to work after eight weeks with this third baby or second baby, but because everything else in my life felt so foreign, I wanted to get back to the thing that I knew and that I was good at. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  30:53  

Yeah, I think that's a very common thing. I have seen women again in different you know, online, working moms communities where they're saying, like, I don't know what to do with myself on this maternity leave, like, I'm so grateful for it. But also, what do I do? Like, there's no structure in my day. I don't know what I'm doing in my job. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And I think depending on how our brain like, processes that can kind of turn into depression or anxiety very easily, because it's like, you know, anxiety around like, oh, like, you know what's happening, I don't know what to do. Or depression about just like, there's nothing for me to do, and I serve no purpose, and I'm not good at this kind of a thing. And so I think that's very normal again, for someone who's like, so high functioning, so high achieving and performing.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  31:42  

Yeah, no, I definitely agree. And even the age you are when you have your first I mean, there's so many factors that a topic like this is really hard in a lot of ways, because there's the comparison of, well, that's not the reality at my company, or that's not the reality for me, because I'm older or younger, or I have one kid, or I have three kids, and so, you know, everything you kind of have to take with a grain of salt and take the parts that are that work for you, and leave the parts that don't, because every kid is unique. I mean, I think any parent will will tell you that that's been one of the most helpful lessons as a parent, having three now, you know, we been able to see we raise them the same way, and they make their own choices and have very different personalities. And that's that's great. That's fine.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  32:33  

Yeah.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  32:34  

But I think especially in that, like zero to one moment, it can feel very much like I'm my choices are why, you know, this baby is doing this or isn't doing this, and the reality is they're just them. They're going to do what they want to do as a baby, and that's going to continue as they as they grow. So not that we have no part in that process. We obviously do. But I think carrying you carry it differently when you realize that it's not all on you, like their personality is going to have a part to play, too. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  33:10  

Yeah, I love that you're saying that, because I think there are so many times where, because I think we are so used to being able to control more than, you know, whenever a baby comes in the world, and we realize that was all a facade, we have no control over anything but ourselves. A lot of times, I see people asking like, you know, my baby won't sleep through the night, what am I doing wrong? Or, you know, my toddler keeps having these tantrums. What am I doing wrong? And it's always like, the assumption goes back to what am I as a parent doing wrong? And I think, to your point, it's like nothing. You're just noticing that-

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  33:51  

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  33:52  

-this child is this child, this baby is this baby. And I think a lot of times it comes from that comparison of like, well, you know, all my other friends babies are sleeping through the nights. None of my other friends, two year old is having a tantrum, you know, 10 times a day. And so it's like, our brains kind of do this comparison, and then think like, it must be me, but really it's not. It's it's the baby. It's that the baby is different. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  34:16  

Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  34:17  

Yeah. I love that perspective. So getting back to your different leaves. So we talked about each one, and I'm just curious, like, obviously, there were totally different circumstances in each one. Just like babies are different, different circumstances.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  34:33  

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  34:33  

You are at different ages, things like that. But I guess I'm just curious, like, what are your takeaways, or what have you learned from you know, kind of like if you step back and look at them more on a macro level?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  34:44  

Yeah, I think clearing your schedule as much as you can when you know you're going into a season like that, or even if it's a season of a leave for a different purpose, intentionally looking at what is going on in your life and your family's daily rhythms, and saying no to more things is ultimately going to leave everybody feeling better in the long run, as you're navigating whatever the situation is that's putting you on a leave. I think, for maternity leave, specifically, each time I have had I've walked away with a new sense of appreciation for my body and what it can do and has done, and just being so grateful for good health, you know. And I my mom has she had a cancer diagnosis a few years ago. And sometimes those diagnoses, they don't have an end in sight, or there's other health complications that don't have an end in sight. And pregnancy very much is one of those things where you can have a countdown and you know that you're going to get back to some version of yourself in the next, however many weeks or months, and just being able toappreciate what your body has done and treat it well. So I always will walk out of a pregnancy with a renewed sense of I want to exercise and I want to eat foods that are good for my body, and so being able to ease into routine that allows you to do that. I know it can feel difficult whenever you've got a newborn, like, how am I supposed to add one more thing into the schedule? But you can't fill from an empty cup, and so what are those things that are going to help put your body in a place where you can take care of your family well, and also help you mentally. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  36:41  

I mean, with this recovery period, I should say, I've been swimming laps since I got the clear from my doctor, and one of the reasons I started doing that was because it was a very gentle way to ease back into exercise. And I don't like to be in pain, so swimming feels very gentle, not a lot of soreness with swimming, so that's been something that's been extremely helpful for me, and also gives my mind that break, because you can't do anything while you're in the water, except for have your own thoughts and process things. And you know, I think that's a gift. Even as we work out, we're so used to having something playing in our ears or watching something on the TV, and you just really are forced to slow down. And so what are those things that will help you do that as you find your your routine? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  37:31  

Yeah, I also swim laps these days. And there are times where I'm like, my brain is too loud, like, I need  silence. And so I will just like, count strokes and count laps and focus on that. So because I'm like, I need nothing in my head right now, 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  37:49  

How many strokes do you have when you're doing your your swim? Are you doing a 25 meter pool? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  37:55  

I am, and I have no idea, because I just count them, and then they go while they go in. And then which, is hard because I also am counting laps, and it also goes out on my brain. I'm like, what was I on? Luckily, I have my watch to tell me with that one, but.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  38:08  

Yeah, we need to have a separate conversation about that, because that is the biggest struggle with swimming, is counting. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:16  

Yeah, it's like, the numbers don't matter. It's like, the act of saying them in my head so that it doesn't leave space for me to think about anything else. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  38:24  

Yeah, yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  38:26  

That's how I think about it. But I'm curious. Like, what have you found? You talked about some things, but kind of, what's been really kind of helpful to, like, set you up for success and set your team up for success while you were out. What would you say? Like, Oh yeah, I did that really well. Or our team did that really well. Or, man, I wish I had done that differently that, you know, in terms of just making sure that things carry on, you know, while you're out, and things don't fall through the cracks and that kind of thing?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  38:54  

Yeah, I was worried about that going out on leave, just because we have so many, you know, irons in the fire at any given moment.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  39:02  

Yeah.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  39:03  

But it's a huge testament to my team and who, who they are as individuals that I got back in almost everything we had in motion was done. So I think empowering your people, which starts long before you go on leave, to feel like they can make decisions without you, that they can own programs without you, have strategic conversations without you. That was something that I really focused on as we prepared and as we got closer, I had I had just started having conversations with each of them, kind of that week before I went out. And you know, this is what I want you to feel this ownership over this program or this conversation. I want you to make this decision and then bring it to my boss and, you know, let him know why you made this decision, and really building that confidence that I believed in them, and that I trusted them, I think was a big reason of why they felt able to keep running without a bunch of oversight while I was out. You know, and then documentation, I think that's a big thing, going back to the idea of nesting at work, and it may feel like you're starting it way too soon to everybody else, but especially when they can only see you from here up,for those listening on the podcast, it's like shoulders up because we're all on Zoom these days. It's easy to forget that there is a belly growing below that Zoom frame. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  39:03  

Yeah, it's funny. Actually, I remember I started a new role when I was five months pregnant and I was remote. They hadn't, like, announced it whenever they introduced me, or anything like, why would they? But also, I don't know, I was just like, hey, guess what, I'm pregnant.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  40:55  

Right? Yeah.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  40:56  

Nice to meet you. And so I didn't really, like say anything. And then at our first few, like, in person events, I think, like at one dinner, like I wasn't having a drink, and someone was like, Oh, why are you drinking? And it was kind of like everyone was kind of feeling it out. Like, yeah, is she? Because, of course, you don't want to ask, right? And so.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  41:19  

Right.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  41:20  

Finally, one of my managers just straight up was like, Can I ask you about your bump? And I was glad she did, because I'm sure the whole team was wondering. But again, it was just kind of like, how do I don't know, like...

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  41:36  

The ship had sailed on, how we address this? 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  41:39  

Yeah, but it is. It's that, you know, no one can actually see so none of them knew that because they couldn't see me from, you know, the below my shoulders. So anyway, go on. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  41:51  

So working on those, those transition documents, even if you just keep them to yourself, if you feel silly about how early you're starting it, or what have you. Put the put the things down on paper, who you want to own, what links to documents, and then just revisit it weekly, or whatever cadence feels right to you as you get closer. Because you know babies are going to come on their own time. And I definitely learned that in this one I was, I was convinced that my my daughter, our second, was going to come early, because I was just not feeling good, and she was 10 pounds. So that's why. But this time, I was like, Nope, we're in it for the long haul. I felt this way last time, I am not going to have this baby early. Nobody worried about anything. And you know, here he comes, mutual separation. Five weeks early, we were both happy it was done. But I had some of those transition docs started, which definitely helped and gave me peace of mind when we realized, oh yeah, this is gonna happen today. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  42:54  

I'm curious about the transition documents. So you shared, you know, kind of what is the project? Who is gonna own it. What are the resources for it? Is there anything else that you feel like is very important to make sure is included in transition docs to set the team up for success?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  43:11  

I would add notes I had, like a notes column too, that were only things that I would know, or maybe conversations that I had had, if it was something that I was still primarily owning, because I've been on the other side of of situations where you're taking something over kind of unexpectedly, and it's like I have some gaps that I'd like to fill in, and I wish I knew what this person knew, or what conversations had been had, and so those hit by a bus, kind of things that nobody else is going to know this if I don't actually write it down somewhere. So obviously, keeping it as concise as you can, but it at least can put whoever's going to be owning it on the right trajectory. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  43:52  

Yeah.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  43:53  

That was probably the only other thing I had, you know, project owner notes, deadlines, if I knew deadlines, and then a link to any of the resources that we were working on. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  44:05  

And then, in terms of your boss, the leaders and managers that you work most closely with, because I know you know many of our listeners are supporting teams and will have people out on leave. And like you said before we started recording, you might go out on your own leave, you know, one to four or five times, maybe max, or maybe a little bit more. But for the most part, you also need to think about covering other people's leaves. So I'm curious what your leaders and managers have done kind of throughout your leaves that you think that was great. I definitely like that was so helpful for me. How did they kind of set you up for success? And how, just in general, can leaders or managers, in your opinion, kind of help to set their employees up for success for a leave? 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  44:57  

Yeah, it's a great question, because you, as the manager or the leader, is going to ultimately be responsible for what happens with that person's role and their responsibilities while they're out. So you want to make sure that you have a process in place that you're comfortable with. From a culture perspective, one of the most important things you can do as a leader, and the higher up you are in the organization, the more important I think this is, is take the full amount of leave yourself. You know, you have to set the example. And that's something that's been really clear and loud at our company, is that everybody, men and women alike, take the full leave that is available to them. So folks all throughout the company feel safe in doing so. And you know, Jacob, we've had several of his friends say, Are you sure you want to do that? Is that going to be good for your career, for you to take 12 weeks away from work, like, aren't you going to get passed over for a promotion or something? And at another company, yeah, probably, maybe. But at our company, we feel very confident in that culture because that example has been set before us so many times. So I'd say that's one thing. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  46:12  

But then in terms of how you support folks when they're getting ready to go out on on leave themselves, I would say, have a document. You know, you mentioned somebody else who's supporting lots of leaves this year in their company, and having a process that is very repeatable for you as the leader to be able to work off of. I mean, depending on the size of the company, HR is probably going to have something to go off of. But in our case, I mean, I work at absolutely it's like a 1200 person company, and our leave process is more about pay dates and return date, and it's not really in the weeds, how do you transition these things successfully? Which I think is an opportunity. So as a manager, you know, see what your resources are with your HR team today, but also make it work for for you and your team as someone who's going to be responsible for their work while they're out.

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  47:11  

And then I think when they come back, you almost have to think about it like a re onboarding of sorts, in that they've been away for so long, you're probably going to need to have more check ins with them than you typically would. They're going to have questions. You can't assume the knowledge is there, because it's not even things that I knew when I left. They're just gone. And so I've had to tell my my team, you know, I know we talked about this back in May, but I need you to catch me up on where we landed and what happened, and why did we make that decision back in April, because a lot of life has happened for me since then. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  47:49  

Yeah, I wonder, do you feel kind of foggy at all when you go back? I know that that's something that I felt. I don't remember for how long. And I've talked to so many women who are like, I just don't feel like, like, it's like, the thing I want to say, or remember, it's like, it's right there. I just can't quite reach it. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  48:10  

Yes, I feel so seen in this moment. Yes. I think I have felt that more with this return than the other two, because one, it was the longest. Two, I had a ton of things in flight, whereas last time, I was starting at a new role. So it was, it was truly an onboarding, fresh start. So I have definitely noticed that fogginess this time, and you're intaking so much information just on updates of what has happened. I mean, I literally just read slack in emails for eight hours my first day back, trying to start to put pieces back together to even know what questions to ask as I was meeting with folks. And I told my boss, I said, when I start running out of words, that means that I've processed as much as I can process today. So you articulating that in the way you did. I'm like, Yes, that's exactly what's happening for me, is I know what I want to say, but I cannot sometimes get the words out to make that sentence happen. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  49:16  

Yeah. Well, I love also that you're honest with your boss about it too, right? Because I think again, sometimes we feel like, Oh, God, you know, I'm just not functioning at that same high level that I expect myself to function at, and that means that, like, you know, I'm not adding as much value, or there's something wrong with me and that kind of thing. And so I love that you're just like, yep, just a heads up. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  49:43  

This is where we're at. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  49:44  

This is where we're at right now. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  49:45  

Yeah. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  49:46  

Well, anything else that you would want to share, or any advice that you would want to share to people you know who are maybe going on leave, thinking about a promotion at the same time, things like that. Anything else you want to share?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  50:00  

I think the biggest thing is just to give yourself grace in the whole process. It's a lot. It's a lot for your body, it's a lot for your life. It's a lot to get ready to be out on leave for your work for so long. So just recognize it as a season, and that might feel weird, especially if this is your first leave, like, how do I know when it's the end of the season and it's just gonna become a different season, you know? And there will be different things for you to focus on, but giving yourself grace through that process, I think, is the most important thing, because you're gonna have to pivot. Things aren't gonna go to plan. It's gonna be harder in some ways, that than you expected. And that's okay, like, just let it be okay for for things not to go to plan, and for you to pivot and and know that you're going to get there eventually. And even if you don't get there, that season's going to pass, and couple weeks will go by and you'll be working on something different with the baby. You know, whether it's sleep issues or they're doing a developmental leap, or whatever that looks like. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  51:06  

Yeah, do you have any recommendations, or, like, how to give yourself grace? Because I think that's something that sometimes moms will say, like, I know I'm supposed to give myself grace. I just I don't feel like I deserve it, or I don't know how to actually do it, and one of the examples you gave earlier was like recognizing that every baby's different. It's not you. We just have different babies. But is there anything else that you've kind of learned over the course of three babies? Of you know how to actually give yourself grace and feel okay about accepting that like this is where I'm at today, and it's enough?

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  51:27  

It's a great question. I would say, you have to name what matters, not everything can be a priority one, and that goes for work and personal life, you know, those, sometimes you're going to have to prioritize one over the other. And so again, that can be for a season. I just was at a work event for four days, and I wasn't with my family, and that was the priority one while I was there, was connecting with people on my team, reconnecting with people I hadn't seen for five months, and then now that I'm home, my priority is I'm gonna take things a little bit easier over the next day or so, as we have Halloween and move into the weekend, and I'm going to prioritize my family. So being able to prioritize what's most important for that week or even that day, if you need to break it down into smaller, bite sized chunks. I think you give yourself grace by simplifying your schedule, which also can be a source of mom guilt, of if my kids aren't involved in all these activities, and I'm not taking them to all of these enriching things, what's going to happen? They're going to play, which is what they need to do anyway. We just need them to play at home. They don't need all of these other inputs in their life, which I think, as an American society, we have just really gone beyond in terms of what that looks like. I know you and I talked about that back in the summer with little leagues and soccer leagues and all the things and the requirements on these, these little ones today. So feeling the ownership of of simplifying your life and that being okay and is also not permanent. You can always add things back in later. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  51:45  

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, this fall we decided we're just doing one activity, just doing swim lessons, and that is it. The rest of the days are just free play, free whatever we want to do. And that is coming off of a year of over programming, and it's been amazing. It's been so great for me and for my daughter, because we get to just spend time together, or she gets to just spend time with the neighbor kids and go outside and get fresh air and play and not be in a structured, programmed activity. But yeah, I think our culture, our society, has it set up that like that one is better than the other that like they need to be in these structured kind of activities, and also then we like take it to the extreme, especially in young kids sports. But I agree. I think we shouldn't discount the power of free time and free play. So I love that,wonderful.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  54:19  

Well, Jen, thank you so much for sharing your story and all this wonderful advice. I feel like there's always so much to learn from you, and so I'm so excited that everyone gets to hear from you on the podcast. 

Jennifer Atzenhoffer  54:32  

Thank you, Leanna, this was awesome. I feel like we had a good therapy session just reminiscing on all the things. So thank you for your thoughtful questions. This was really fun. 

Leanna Laskey McGrath  54:40  

Yeah. Well, wonderful. Well, thank you so much everybody for joining us today, and we will see you all next week.

Leanna Laskey McGrath  54:51  

Thanks so much for tuning in to the executive coach for moms podcast. Please like, subscribe or follow the show so you'll be notified when the next episode is available. I hope you'll join me again next time. Take care.