#270 So You Want to Change Your Spouse? Here’s How You Can Have a Positive Influence For Change in Your Relationship

Greg & Rachel (00:01.12)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your host, Greg and Rachel Denning.

We are so excited. You're just excitable. I'm a very excitable person. And just about every topic that has to do with personal development, family development, or business development excites me. So that's a lot of topics. If you were to bring up politics, and be like, meh, meh. Well, what is today's topic? A couple things. But we're going to talk about, I would say,

One of the most difficult, challenging, and rewarding.

Jobs? Yes. Responsibilities, opportunities, burdens. Projects? Projects. That's a tough one, but probably accurate. That is in life. Marriage. Hands down.

is one of the most important relationships, one of the most difficult relationships. One of the most potentially rewarding relationships. Yes, it's so, so, so important. But the only way it works is if you work. You work? Yeah. The only way it works is if you work. If you do the work. And if you do the work, then hopefully, unless your spouse is one of those very rare individuals that is unresponsive to almost anything, that's rare. So have hope.

Greg & Rachel (01:32.768)
If you do the work, then your spouse will start to do the work. The ideal marriage is where both individuals inside the marriage are willing to work on themselves. That's the ideal. Now that is facilitated and encouraged in a lot of different ways. There's so many things we can do to help each other be better. So we can like pave the way. We can make it super easy. So there's things I can do.

make it super easy for you or at least easier easier make it easier for you to want to improve and then actually take the steps to improve same for me you I don't know if it's this we need to talk about this if it's more one -sided than the other but I know for sure there are things that you do that make it way easier and more encouraging

incentivizing for me to improve myself. Right. Like I can speak for men. I think that's both ways. You think it's both ways? absolutely. Because for men like there's our wives the things you do the things you say or don't do yes holds a lot of weight. A massive amount of influence even when a man's like trying to resist it and he's you know distance or cold or whatever like a woman's

Words and actions carry a massive amount of weight in his life. So just slight adjustments from you will often feel like gigantic swings in the burden I'm carrying. I either feel like it'll lift the weight or adjust the weight. Just a little adjustment for you and I'm like, wow.

What felt impossible now feels totally doable. And it's just the slightest adjustment from you, which I think is important in this in this topic today, because if you consciously or unconsciously don't do those things, don't do or do do certain things right. The way you act, respond, behave has this gigantic influence on me. And some of your behaviors would

Greg & Rachel (03:57.168)
So essentially we're talking about whether or not you can help your spouse improve. First of all, I started off before like is it even possible? Because that's of course an important framework to come from. And yes, we believe it is absolutely possible that you, whoever you are listening, can have a positive influence over your spouse.

in order to help them first of all want to improve and then to actually make improvements. I think that's an important distinction. The first step is wanting. The second step is actually doing it. I know there's plenty of times in my life where I'm like I don't even want to do that. I know I should. I know exercise was one of those things for years and if you've listened to our other episodes you know our little thing about exercise between the two of us. That was one of my things. Like I didn't even want

want to exercise. Like I had to get to that point of like wanting, I knew logically it made sense that I should do it, but I didn't want to do it. So I had to want to want it. That was the first step. So is it possible for us to be able to influence our spouse to be able to make those positive, whatever they are, positive improvements in their life to get where they want to want to do the things that make them better.

to make them a better person essentially. We're not just talking about making life improvements, which is part of it and important. We want them, maybe we want our spouse to earn more money or we want a better house or we want more freedom or we want a better lifestyle or we want them to have better health. All of that is directly connected to our personal life, but helping them to want to improve themselves just for the sake of improving.

just for the sake of being a better person, which then of course contributes to everything else. Like it's a process and it's a journey, but one that we do feel is possible. Absolutely. 100%. So the first step is to get desire. Yeah. And the second step implementation. But in that context though, like you were saying a minute ago, things I say or do or don't do or don't say have a massive impact on you.

Greg & Rachel (06:16.832)
on whether or not you feel confident, capable, safe, desire, like you desire to do it safe. That's interesting. That's an interesting word coming from you as a man to use. Explain that more. I guess I wasn't technically using it for myself. But I know. You're using it for me. For you, but also other men. Well, yeah, I would definitely use that word.

As a woman, I need to feel safe if I'm gonna make certain improvements. Or try to make certain improvements. Trying to improve feels really vulnerable. It feels humbling. Well, because first of all, and I know that, I mean, we've talked a lot about this and we've talked about some of your clients and stuff. One of the reasons people don't want to change is because, first of all, that requires that who you are at the moment is not quote unquote good enough.

That's the first step of growth and improvement. You have to make some sort of admission that I could be better, which means I'm not as good as I could be. That's hard for a lot of people. Which is painful is painful right? To acknowledge that I need improvement. Right. That I'm not... And we all get it logically, like, I'm not perfect, right? We'll, say that I'm not as good as I could be. But to be able to truly and honestly admit that, like, in a real way that means, yeah, I'm lacking. I need to be more.

That is very painful, especially at first. I feel like now it's a lot easier. I agree. It's way easier for me. But initially, I felt like your psychology is literally fighting and defending itself. It's like an ego. Telling everything and everyone, I'm OK. I'm OK. I want you to love me for who I am. And so you're fighting for OK. Because it's the ego fighting for survival. Exactly. The ego's like, no.

as we are, raw, it's just this battle. And you're like, no.

Greg & Rachel (08:23.584)
up ego you were not invited to this get out of my life i think that was one of the most important thing i did it's like no and it is because it was born of deep insecurity that i wasn't lovable that i wasn't good enough that i never would be that i'd always be poor and ignorant and shy and the ego's fighting just with claws and teeth is holding on to keep this spot and you're like no get out of my life completely and to be able to

humbly say, yeah, I am inadequate. I can be more. I can do more. I can achieve more. Not only can I, I have to because I am grossly inadequate as I am. That was the first beautiful, ugly admission. That first step say I need to do more and better. But if I'm struggling to do that personally to myself,

And I have to say it to you or hear it from you. Yeah. It doesn't go over very well. Dang. And so that's kind of where I said I want to feel safe. I don't feel like that I'm anymore. Like I'm in such a good place. Even with you, even if you were off or something, I'm like, no, I'm good because I worked on it a long way. I feel very comfortable in my own skin and I'm good. But I know...

bulk of people, maybe perhaps most people if not all people, need to feel safe in their attempt to improve. Well, in their their attempt to make that admission because it is so vulnerable and and so that's where we begin if we're talking about can we help our spouse improve we have to realize that that's what we're up against and and we should probably be able to understand that if you've gone through it yourself that

you have to make an admission first off that you're not quote good enough as you are and that's hard that is so so hard for people take off the armor that protective armor of the ego and i take it off i have to know you're not gonna just pick up a dagger and stab yeah exactly which sometimes is what happens and and we need to realize that we may going back to what you were saying we may inadvertently or maybe purposefully on purpose

Greg & Rachel (10:47.072)
Yeah, be doing that to our spouse. So no wonder they're not going to let down their guard. They're not going to be, they're not going to allow that vulnerability because they don't feel safe from you, which is hard to hear. That's painful. That might like, you may be the reason your spouse isn't changing. And you're like, no, but I want them to, I keep telling them, I keep pointing out all the ways, I keep offering all these resources. I want them to improve. And they're like, they just keep putting on more armor.

That's their response to that approach because it's not providing a space of safety where I feel like I can be vulnerable with you because you're constantly pointing out how weak I am and where I'm lacking and where I'm failing. So it has that inadvertent opposite effect that we're actually causing or contributing the very thing we don't want. Which I'm sure it happens both ways, but I think it's maybe particularly

pronounced because part of the feminine nature is to correct notice what's wrong the masculine nature so yeah your job is like noticing and bringing it to my attention so and I tell my the men I coach I'm like look your wife one of her roles is to test you she will test you conscious or unconscious she will test you she will push your limits she will point out what's not right and it'll

easily come across as nagging. It can get manipulative and it can get mean and vicious where women again sometimes it's unconscious or subconscious they've got daggers out and they're waiting for a chance to make stabs and this husband's like, there ain't no way I'm taking off my armor. My wife she'll be the first to kill me. Right and so you got to put down the weapons of war. Yeah.

We're not saying set aside standards. We're not saying don't, you know, be the helper and point things out. But if, if every time you notice something, you did it with claws, what am I going to do? Well, I'm going to put up, I'm going to wear armor all the time. My first thought was the hedgehog. You're going to roll up in a ball. Exactly. I'm the head. I'm a roll with the ball, hold my spikes out and you're just like,

Greg & Rachel (13:10.42)
Pretend I'm dead. Pretend I'm dead. Make sure all my spikes are out and just try to protect my soft spots. Right, exactly. Yeah. I can literally see the hedgehog. We have a hedgehog out here. No, you're right. And so I'm in protective mode. So not only am I not thinking about improving myself, I'm just trying to protect. Yeah, you're on the defensive.

And sometimes I'm literally practicing myself because there's a threat. And sometimes I'm just protecting my ego and there's a difference. If I'm protecting the ego, no, the ego needs to die and I need to be the one to kill it. Yes. You don't have to kill my ego. I have to. Since this is talking about what we can do to help our spouse, we have to be more intentional about creating that space for our spouse, which means we're going to have to

Obviously do something different because if what you were doing created the results you wanted you'd have the results and you wouldn't be listening, right? So you have whatever you're doing is not working. You have to do something different. Now one of the things that I did along the way and I've talked about this before in our coaching and it worked great for me is and I don't know where I heard it. I heard it somewhere along the way and it just stuck with me. Whatever you think, think the opposite. Whatever you do, do the opposite.

And it sounds a little extreme, but it actually is kind of effective. For me, at least, it is. If you start questioning what you've been doing, is this really working? So when I came to find myself in a situation that I'd been in before where I'm responding the same way I always respond, I stopped and I would say, whatever I think, think the opposite. And so then I would say, well, I'm thinking this. And then I would repeat the opposite in my head. And I would try that. And wow, amazing.

It would actually work. It created a different result. Well, because it breaks the drama triangle. It breaks the drama triangle. Every time I bring up this thing that you're doing, you respond this way and come back. And we go around and around and around in the same... And then a few weeks later comes up again and I do the same thing, you do the same thing, come back and bristle. And couples will do that for years or decades. So then what you're saying is...

Greg & Rachel (15:30.24)
I do. There it is again. The opposite now. I'm going to do the opposite. I'm not going to say anything. Or I'm going to say something totally different. And the other person is like, what just happened? Yeah, exactly. This isn't your usual response. This isn't your role. And so that's a great catalyst for changing the conversation and eventually the desire and the implementation. Exactly. Like we talked about. Right. All right. So what can we do? You're creating different patterns. Right.

So, okay, and maybe that's the first thing we talk about is like, what can we do to help our spouses change? Pattern interrupters are excellent. Do something different. Than what you've done. I would say, let's just do it with us. Like, we're in a situation and we can do this scenario where you want me to change something and I want you to change something.

I would start with like a really romantic trip. Like you and I, just the two of us going somewhere special and five, seven, 10 days of magical bliss.

especially if we haven't done anything like that ever or in a while. Go create a new experience and remember what it's like to just be the two of us in love. But unfortunately, I feel like right away for so many couples, there's already so many obstacles there. There's so many things in the way of...

They're like, wait, can I start today? This and that and time off and work and expectations and I'm going to plan the perfect trip and he's going to hate it. And like, there's so many obstacles there that even that just can backfire in so many. Scratch that idea. Take that off the table. Just forget you heard that. That's for another strategy. And I know where you're going with that. I know it can work, but we have to start.

Greg & Rachel (17:34.784)
closer to home. You know how I roll. I know. Go big or go home. Exactly. It's like, no way. We're not talking about a strategy you can do this afternoon over lunch. I'm like, let's pack a bag. We're leaving tonight. The most epic trip ever. All right. OK. So pattern interrupters on a small frame. Well, and again, the pattern, they don't have to be huge things. Every single day, we're living in patterns. Our entire life is out.

It's habitual. Like we're operating off patterns. What was the number? It was like 90 something percent of everything we do is just repeat. Exactly. It's all habitual, which is necessary for us to function in the world. So it's not necessarily a bad thing. But when we have these patterns in our relationships and we want to create different results, we've all heard it. If you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results, that's basically insanity.

You have to do something different in order to get different results. So if you're trying to influence your spouse to change, especially if you've already tried in the past, don't do that anymore. It doesn't work. It's not working. So the first thing to do is to stop that. That's a pattern interrupt. Stop doing what's not working. Stop doing what's not working. Just, I don't care. If you're just silent and say nothing, just stop doing what you've been doing that is not working.

That's a pattern interrupt. Then the next phase is, like we said, do the opposite maybe. Do the opposite of what you've been doing. I think maybe this good spot interject, I was sitting here while I was listening to you, the thought occurred to me, I'm trying to get you to change in this hypothetical scenario. And it just occurred to me, I'm like, why would you listen to me? Yeah, that's a good point. It's a powerful question, because then it circles back to me.

Like I would like Rachel to do something differently hypothetically and I have to stop and say well why would she listen to me? Why should she listen to me? And if my ego jumps in well because I'm her husband. I have authority over her. I go to work every day. I work so hard. I'm like yeah okay whoop -de -doo -dah you want a trophy for doing what you should do anyways? You want a trophy for taking care of your responsibilities?

Greg & Rachel (19:58.24)
down ego down like you're just doing it. So then the follow up question for me at least is well how can I how can I earn her listening to me. So why should she listen to me. I think about that and I'm like how can I earn that. What can I do better so that she wants to either join me and be better or or listen.

When I have to say something. And my guess is pretty quickly each spouse would come up with a list that they know they could do better and ways they could be better to have more influence and improve the relationship. So in a very fundamental real way, the best course for helping you change something is for me to become a better person and not.

not hypothetical generalizations like, I'll just be better. That'll never work. I can't measure that. I'm going to go in my mind palace. I'm going to think, what are the things that Rachel just does not like?

And I'm going to work on those things. Right. And over the years that that's happened over 23 years of marriage, there's these things that come up and I know you don't like them. Some of them, I just I was like, well, but I like either I liked or I don't care. Right. Like the way I used to dress. I was like, whatever, I don't care. I don't care how I look. I'm just wearing clothes covering my nakedness.

The only reason I wear clothes is because it's not okay to be naked. But then, like there was little things like that. That I know you like, well you wanted it a certain way. And then finally I was like, wait a minute. I don't stand around looking at myself. Like I, you see me more than I see me. I see myself when I occasionally cross in front of a mirror. You see me all the time. So I'm like, well, I'll just dress how she wants me to dress.

Greg & Rachel (22:11.936)
You know, I don't know. I don't like that or whatever, whatever, whatever thing. Right. You wanted to make the bed a certain way or even make the bed for that matter. Right. Right. I'm like, I get up like, why would I make it? I'm just going to get back in it tonight. Right. That's how we were when we first were married. And you loved making the bed and then making a certain way, making it look nice. And for years, I was like, who cares? It was my very simple caveman brain. But then I was like, why not?

She likes it like that. So it's even small things. Right. I think it's definitely the small things. I gain influence with you. Absolutely. By doing things you like. 100%. Yeah, because as you're sitting here talking about this, I'm like, yeah, you are very intentional about that. You are very intentional about noticing the things that I say or ask and then actually doing it, even though you don't care one way or the other. And that does.

gain a lot of influence over me. Like I, I'm willing to do a lot of things for you because you do a lot of things for me. There it is. Yeah. Wow. Did you guys just hear that? It's this beautiful reciprocal thing. Now it's not always immediate. No, it's definitely not. And I'm not holding it out. I did this for you. I made the bed just how you wanted.

you have to do this thing it doesn't it doesn't work like that and it's rarely ever I do a Udubi right it's like I'm feeling generous so I'll give you half of an A wow this is really embarrassed although I feel like my your A is

usually sex and that goes a long way. It goes a long way. It's like a to z right there you know. Gotcha! The whole alphabet. Okay which is an interesting point is some desires are so much more heavily weighted than others. Right. So I might want something from you. It means so much to me and you're like meh and vice versa.

Greg & Rachel (24:35.68)
So maybe I like, it doesn't even come up on my radar and you're like, this is so important to me. And if that comes up, do it. Man, it's a short list of things that really truly matter to you and I can do those things. Well, and I mean, I'm just thinking of this because you and I have not operated in that space for so long, but what a sad situation to be in if we actually purposefully do things that we know our spouse doesn't like.

That just seems now to me childish. Why would we do that? I wouldn't, I can't even imagine intentionally do something that I knew you hated. And yet we know what's happening. That would just feel so petty. Like a betrayal to me if I were to do that. So spitefully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, spite. It's very childish. It's very immature and and it's self -sabotage.

It's definitely self -sabotage because it's well, especially in the context of this conversation if I want to help you improve But I intentionally do things to spite you that is I'm just Shooting myself in the foot. Yep My guess is that's happening pretty regularly in in many marriages where it's it's out of anger or resentment for the reason of unresolved issues

And I can see that it could be happening for sure because we are not feeling that reciprocation. If I feel like my spouse is not doing any of these things for me that I would like, why should I? Why should I go out of my way to do them for him? That's a very easy position to get into. But that's the point of this conversation. If you want improvement, you have to improve, which means you have to be the first one to go out of your way to do the things for them that you know that they like.

so that you can begin that process of positive reciprocation. And I think it's important to answer the question you asked. Why should I do this if they don't? And you, listener, have to get to that place. You've got to answer that question and have a good answer. I've done this with a lot of my coaching clients. When they legitimately ask, well, why should I do that?

Greg & Rachel (26:51.192)
And we walk through it. I ask questions, but ultimately we get to the place of here's the core answer, at least for me. It's because that's the kind of person you want to be independent of what your spouse does. That's the caliber of person you want to be. So that's why just do it. Well, I won't do it. Well, why only why if that's the kind of person you want to be, be that kind of person.

If your spouse responds, great. If they don't, great. Be that kind of person. The likelihood is you'll get a positive response from your spouse. Yes. Again, not immediate necessarily. And it has to be like you have to be in it for the long game. Right. And people don't want to hear that. Like you've got to do this for years and decades. And that's not what we're saying before you see a positive response. But.

That's kind of the mindset you have to have of like I'm going to be making the bed for the next 50 years. And the spouse has to believe it. Especially from the side of women. I've seen this so many times with people we work with, the couples especially, the feminine nature is to be disbelieving and testing. And so a man makes a change and she's like, mm -hmm, let's see how long this lasts. It's fascinating because

Because I actually think that's part of our evolutionary biology in a way, because women are the reproducers, we are the ones that produce children to continue on the species, we have to be more distrustful. We can't just trust any man that comes along and believe that he's going to be the one that after he gets me in his bed is actually going to be there to provide for me while I have a child. You have to put men to the test.

Because otherwise, the tendency of men is to have a one night stand. That would be their thing. If you don't test them to know for sure they're going to be the one that sticks with you while you are vomiting and puking and breastfeeding and all the ugly stuff, then they haven't earned that right to be with you. Wow. That's so profound because it is deep.

Greg & Rachel (29:05.888)
inside the biology. It's in your biology to say can I trust this man for the long term. Not just tonight. Not just when I'm wearing lingerie. Exactly. But when I'm puking over the toilet. I've got my legs spread giving birth not you know sexually but in my ugliest moments is he still going to be there.

And that sense of certainty and security, it shows up across the board of is this guy actually gonna make a change or is he just saying what he thinks I wanna hear? Exactly, so that he can get lucky tonight. Right. And that plays out in our everyday, it's totally subconscious. We're not aware that that's happening, but ultimately that is what's happening.

And so that plays out in our daily interactions and that's why the women test because they want to know that you're not just making, you're not just doing the dishes right now because you want to get lucky tonight. You're doing the dishes and you're going to do the dishes every single day and make the bed and help out and do all the things because you love me and you cherish me, not just for the sex.

Greg & Rachel (30:22.432)
Now this can get out of hand because women can come up with gigantic impossible lists. Never end. If he loves me, he does all this. Right. And at that point, you don't have a husband or even a roommate. You're expecting a servant. Right. Really? Like legitimately? Yeah. And you're, if you love me, you're like, okay.

At some point, that's completely unrealistic. And that may be, well, I know it is a reason why many husbands just stop. They stop participating. They stop pushing. They stop trying because it feels like no matter how hard I try, how many more things I do, it just never ends. Right. And so they just kind of, they give up. Yeah. They throw in the towel. They just lay down and die.

And they're just like, well, I'll just endure this. So OK, back to survival mode. Yeah. Back to what you said in the beginning, then there are certain things I do that just make all the difference for you. They just move the needle or whatever. Like, what are some of those things?

walking, talking, breathing, bending over. This is so unspecific. So basically existing. Existing. The way you sleep, the way you get up.

helpful. Look at me. We're trying to give specific strategies. I'm giving all kinds of specifics here. This is amazing. Lipstick, eyelashes, your cute feet.

Greg & Rachel (32:12.928)
You gotta think now. wait, actually, no, those are all true answers.

Greg & Rachel (32:20.704)
the.

Well, okay. So one of the things I love to look at first, like if there's a problem, like what are the holes in the bucket? Wait, is this answering that question? Yes, yes, I'm getting there. I have nothing. Let's change the subject. Let me come up with another metaphor that's totally unrelated. No, the first, because you're actually like, what are the things you do? So I always love to start with like, well, are there holes in the bucket? Right? What's causing it? There's a leak and you're trying to, because what can you do is like, how can we add water to the bucket?

But if there's big holes in the bucket, you gotta plug the bucket first. Because you gotta be like, babe, when you do this, this, this, this, this. And it's like, but there's no water in the buckets because there's a gigantic hole in the bucket. So the first place is what are the things that are just like their motivation killers? OK, so for you, from me, from a man, from a woman, what are some of those motivation killers?

besides the lack of sex.

Greg & Rachel (33:24.)
I would also say a lack of.

I mean respect. I was gonna say respect. We'll get there. I think I'll say a lack of attention. Okay. If like if a man but this is true for women too but if a man feels unnoticed like you're so busy in whatever your girlfriends, the kids, the house, whatever you're doing

If you're just all in your stuff and you don't pay attention, you don't notice what I'm doing, especially if I feel like I'm working hard and I'm doing this for her and I do all this stuff and you don't even notice it. And maybe I had, I worked my butt off. I'm reaching this goal, this big achievement at work. I'm grinding. It sucked. I had a horrible, they're horrible week or a horrible month or a horrible year. And you're like, you're home. Yeah. You don't even know you're like, you don't welcome me home.

You don't celebrate. Like if you don't notice, you're not giving attention to me, that's a kick in the nuts. If the kids get all the attention, if doing house or you doing your little things gets all the attention, that is a major hole in the bucket for a man. Yeah. Well, and you and I have always been very intentional about, for one thing, greetings.

in the morning we always greet each other like hug and kiss and everything and then every time we're apart for any amount of time which our kids will sometimes laugh because it's only been five or ten minutes you know we're like hi so every time you leave and come back there's always interaction with those transitions so we were holding hands hugging kissing touching shoulder massages playing with your hair like

Greg & Rachel (35:18.048)
We touch a lot, a lot of affection and a lot of verbal. We were expressing love all the time. Yeah. And expressing words of affirmation, words of praise, acknowledgments, gratitude. Like that's a big deal. So we're making those little micro -deposits. Right. Every day. 20 to 50 times a day with each other. But yeah, so, and I know that, I know that about you.

And so I tried to because again, it can be something that I what about me about the attention thing. I'm needy. No. Well, that's what's funny. You're not needy. You're not a needy person at all. You're very we're both we can both be very independent. We did a whole podcast about interdependence between spouses, but it's because we are.

both independent that that works because what we're not we're not talking about neediness. We're not saying like your spouse needs to be needy and you need to meet all their needs and baby them. That's actually very repelling. Yeah, exactly. A very needy wife would be repelling. Or a very needy husband. It's very repelling. But what it is is paying attention and again being proactive in well that's one way to fill the holes like you're saying in the bucket. If I know that you like to be greeted when you come home

Will I'm going to make an effort to greet you? And I do. I try to make that effort to greet you. When you get home from wherever you've been, I get up and I go to you to greet you rather than just like, hi, you're home. And I know you had to make a conscious effort to do that. So those of you who might be new or don't know Rachel, Rachel is very, very task oriented. She loves to be productive. Productivity oriented. She's got a list and the list is the ruling measure in her life. So she has had, and that's just her.

your nature babe like your nature is to be very productive and so I've watched her be very deliberate in stopping her drive for productivity to be engaged with me or with the kids so it's a deliberate effort and you don't throw that's just the way I am that's just my personality that's just as important to me like why do I still notice there's no cop outs like you your strength is productivity the inherent weakness is you could neglect

Greg & Rachel (37:34.784)
giving attention to people. Exactly. And so you work on that. It's awesome. So yeah, it's like that. I, I do appreciate that. I think most people do like to be noticed and I want your attention. So, and again, I have to earn your attention.

It's always two -sided. It's always two -sided. It always is. So I'm like, yeah, I want your attention. But I could think, she just needs to give me more attention. Well, that may be true, but I'm like, what can I do to earn more attention? Right. What can I do to level up so much that she can't not? Notice me. Exactly. So attention is one of them. Respect, of course, is a big one. Men have a deep need to be respected, to be admired by the woman they love.

You know, they're just chasing and pursuing a woman and they want deep down for her to respect him. Again, two sided because respect is earned. Yeah, that can be a tough one because so many women feel like they don't respect their husband because he's not respectable. He's sitting around, he's playing video games, he's not providing, he's not helping out. She's like, what is there to respect about this? Which is true. So it's difficult and boyish. Yeah.

So it is very difficult, but I think the key in a situation like that is to be very, very specific with your respect. Because the thing we don't always recognize is that people are multifaceted, they're complicated. And even in a situation like that where it feels like there's nothing to respect, I guarantee that if you look closely, you will find something about your spouse that you do respect.

And if you will be very specific in noticing and appreciating that part of them, they're going to respond to that in a big way. Because they want to get more of them. Like if you express appreciation for something about them that you respect, maybe it's the fact that he's a hard worker when he's out working, digging ditches or something in the yard. And you're like, I love it that you can do that. And you're, I love your muscles. Like I'm always talking about Greg's muscles. I need your muscles to open.

Greg & Rachel (39:51.999)
a can for me or to dig this for me. Like I really appreciate that. And so I point it out because that's something I appreciate. If you pick the thing. Which of course drives me to stay fit and healthy. Yeah, exactly. So if you find the little things, even if there's just one of them or a few of them, and you emphasize those and you express appreciation for those so that it's not fake, it's got to be real.

they're going to start doing more of the things you appreciate and less of the things that you don't. Yep, absolutely. So strategically praise the behavior you want. If you want your husband to play with the kids more, to be more engaged to the family. Don't tell him to do it. Just when you notice something be like, and I told one of my clients this the other day, I'm like tell your husband how unbelievably sexy it is when he plays with the kids. And she was like, it's

Totally worked. Of course it worked. Exactly. He comes home and engages the kid and you go over and you're like, it is so sexy when you play with our kids. Yeah. He's like, I will play. This is my new way of being. Exactly. This is my new career. Like he's going to lean into that instead of, why don't you ever play with kids? You never played with kids. I hate you don't play with kids. And it's a fight instead of a little soft praise. And the results are vastly different. So that was just a little strategic.

packed there that works so much. So, earn respect and, and give respect. And express appreciation for respectable behaviors. Exactly. So epic fail on my part, if you are respectable or you do something respectable or great, and I don't say anything about it, huge fail. Which I think is another thing that just

for some reason has become the norm in dynamic for so many relationships that when I notice something I like about you or appreciate about you, I don't say anything. Like why? Why is that, that's how we've been taught to interact. That somehow that's a normal way of being. Like, I really noticed that they did that or they said that or they were that way, but I don't say anything about it. And that has to be, in an ideal, an extraordinary marriage, that has to be unacceptable. Yeah. It has to be.

Greg & Rachel (42:14.624)
Like if you think something or feel something, like you say something. And if you're not thinking or noticing, like you need to step up your own awareness. Like you need to start with self -awareness, situational awareness, spouse awareness. One of the first things I have couples do is like, just sit down and write down, make a list of all the things you honor, respect, admire, or appreciate in your spouse. And at first you're like...

Greg & Rachel (42:40.492)
That's all you got? Sometimes she cooks. Like sometimes if you haven't done it, there's not much there, but you really force yourself to start working on it. All of a sudden you got a really long list. This is amazing. And then make an actual effort to point those things out.

To say it, to write it, to look for it. To watch for them and then to mention them or say something about them that lets your spouse know you're noticing and that you appreciate it, admire them. That's huge. Like that, I think right there, if we could summarize it, that is the key to helping your spouse improve. That's really the major piece, I would say. Agreed. It's noticing the positive things about your spouse.

emphasizing them and that that that will grow and grow and grow and it has to be done tactfully and it has to be done sincerely it can't be manipulative or you can't be like okay for the next two weeks I'm gonna point out good things and if he doesn't change by then it just needs to be your way of being like how you operate with your spouse and they'll just start feeling good they'll start feeling safe they'll start feeling noticed and loved appreciated yeah all this good stuff the only way that could not work

is if there's other big holes in the bucket that are just like, there's such blatantly obvious negatives that even all that positive just is not working out. What are some other big negatives in the bucket? I think addictions. Definitely addictions. I would say maybe perhaps traumas as well, like from childhood or growing up or past relationships.

Unresolved issues. Yeah, unresolved issues essentially. Here's one. It's an unresolved issue that a spouse refuses to address. If you, for example, Rachel, had some issue and it was it was disrupting our marriage and our family but you refuse to talk about it, you refuse to get help, you refuse to address it, like it's this unapproachable thing.

Greg & Rachel (44:52.928)
that would be such a gigantic hole in our marriage bucket. I'd be like, no, that's unacceptable. It is an issue, and I'm sorry it's an issue. And it's OK that it happened. What's not OK is that it doesn't get processed and addressed and healed. And we've talked about some other approaches in one of our recent episodes about, I think the one about being autonomous, having an autonomous spouse, being interdependent.

that I think in a case like that, especially if it's something you've already tried to bring up and address and talk about and it doesn't work, that's when I would be writing letters. Like I would sincerely be writing physical letters or emails to my spouse explaining all of that. Like here's what I'm seeing and here's what I'm observing and we need to address this, we need to talk about it, we need to resolve it and here's why because all of this. Because the writing, first of all it helps you to get clarity on your thoughts.

And this might be a multi -step process because the first level is writing like a first draft that might be very ugly and attacking and you want to edit that. You want to get rid of the worst stuff and then make a version that's, you know, from with a heart of peace and emphasizing the positive vision. But it allows you to then take this edited message without all of the anger and negative emotion and to give it to your spouse.

so that they also then have time to process it, to read through it, to, like, without you there in their face, like, you know, trying to get some immediate response from them. It's a process that really helps you to get some resolution here without all of the ugliness that can happen that leads to fighting. When we try to address it face -to -face,

When neither of us are really clear about what exactly it is we're talking about and what to do about it. And there's so much, so much emotion around it. And so, and make your spouse know like, Hey, it's okay that you were wounded. It's okay. It's not okay to stay wounded. Exactly. Every one of us has had wounds, but wounds don't have to stay open. In fact, they shouldn't because then they fester. Right.

Greg & Rachel (47:14.592)
And some of us, intentionally or unintentionally, we keep the wounds open and we let them fester. We let them get infected, so to speak, like emotional wounds or whatever, mental, emotional stuff. And that's not OK. And as a spouse in a marriage, at some point I have to kindly but firmly say, we're drawing the line here. You're not going to stay wounded any longer. It's time to heal. And the healing process is painful. It's uncomfortable. But you got to heal. You can't keep the wound open.

That's gotta happen. So that's a big one. I think some of the biggest deterrents are the very thing we're probably talking about, the reason we got this question for someone's like, how do I help my spouse? It's these bad habits and actions that are just infuriating. Behaviors that... Well, in some ways, I'm gonna throw this in here, it's...

the nature of the time we live in. We live in such a time of ease and convenience and luxury that it doesn't require a lot of effort for a human being to stay alive nowadays. Like you can literally sit at home most of the time and entertain yourself and stay alive. It used to be that if you behaved in that way you would starve to death.

Now that's no longer the case. And so, and it's not like that's something we are aware of or think of on a regular basis, but we live in a, we live these lifestyles of ease and comfort. And so many men have found themselves in that cycle, that trap of ease, convenience, entertainment, where all they want to do, because all they have, they don't have to do anything to survive.

Is they want to play video games or scroll or watch tv sports? That's that's what they do. So I mean the iconic guy is just drinking his beer and watching the game and playing some video games, right? He's living the dream and yet that is so unattractive. Any woman with any kind of self -respect will look at a man doing like like what value are you bringing to my life? No woman respects that no self -respecting woman respects that.

Greg & Rachel (49:35.168)
She might tolerate it. And I don't know why. I mean, they often reach out to you or me like, how do I get my husband to stop playing games? I'm like, why? Why is he being a little boy? That's what he's doing. He's being a little boy. He's entertaining himself. How can I get my husband to stay engaged? How can I? My husband just tells me he needs to relax or wind down or have some downtime. And the irony is, like you were saying, we live in such easy, easy times.

that men have become lazy weaklings, but they think they're working hard. They put in a mediocre day at best and they're like, man, I'm working so hard because the scale has dropped so far. Well, and hard doesn't even show up. And literally it has dropped too since today's men have 40 % less testosterone than their grandfathers had.

But I think it's a cycle that feeds each other because our grandfathers were out working hard. They were farming. They were... They knew how to put in a hard day's work. Working at a factory. Like they were working hard and working long days and that I'm sure also contributes to testosterone. And so it's this negative feedback loop that's you know creating weakness. Sitting in a cubicle somewhere.

But part of the point here is that the drive is gone and without the, like it's the drive that makes us want to be better. And if men lose, well specifically men but women too, if you lose that drive, why? Why would you go out and work hard on becoming a better person when you already have everything you want and need? You've got your game, you've got your movies, you've got your food.

Why? The other is just hard and uncomfortable. It makes no sense that you would do that. So. But OK, OK, maybe that's the core of the issue. Then why, if a man can get away with all that and have an OK life, I think maybe women are asking. A comfortable life. Women are asking, how do I get my husband to break out of that? Yeah.

Greg & Rachel (51:52.288)
The real answer is you have because of the role women play in testing men you have to become that Tester you have to be the one who and not in the nagging way that we've been talking about but that is Calling him out like like helping him to raise the standard and that includes that definitely includes everything we've been talking about includes improving yourself it includes noticing the positive things about him and emphasizing them

But then at the same time, you are holding up the standard of like, hey, here's what we could do. And it needs to be a vision, a shared vision. That's another problem that many couples don't have. They don't have a shared vision of what it is they're trying to create as a couple. Like the legacy they're trying to leave for their children and their grandchildren. If you don't have that shared vision, then especially if once you get to your 40s and you've checked all the boxes on everything else you're supposed to do.

You've got the career, you went to college, you got married, you had kids, you bought a house. Now all you've got to look forward to is retirement. That's not a compelling enough vision. We have to have something else that's more motivating and more driving that helps us say, wow, yeah, that's worth working for together to help us create and accomplish so that we can have this impact for our children and our grandchildren. And a lot of spouses don't have that vision. They don't have that. I get messages pretty regularly, actually.

My spouse won't engage. They won't even talk about this. Has no vision. Well, I try to explain or talk about where we could go, what we're doing. And the spouse is like, what's wrong with our life? We have a good life. What's the problem? And that they want to stay comfortable. They want to stay mediocre. So as an individual, if you can't get it with a spouse, create a vision as an individual for the family that draws the spouse into the picture.

Go back to what you were saying about being the tester.

Greg & Rachel (53:53.92)
You have to, so a woman or a man, either way, as you start rising and getting better yourself, it becomes a form of a threat to the spouse. And that's a good thing. It is very uncomfortable. It's scary. It's uncomfortable for both. Yeah. And so let's say you're trying to get me to level up. And so what you do, you become a better person.

I'm going to notice if you're actually doing it. I mean, if you're just going through emotions and you think you're getting better and you're not, then that's the other thing. I don't know. There's so many issues here. Sometimes you're like, yeah, you're just a hypocrite. You're full of crap. You talk and talk and talk about all these things you want to do, and you don't even change. You nag me all, hypothetically, you nag me all the time about doing this and this, and then you just sit around on your phone all the time.

And like, you know, I go to work, so you say at home and you just sit at home and eat too much, you're gaining weight, you let yourself go, you don't even get ready. Like you just sit around nagging and complaining. And when I get home, you nag on me some more like, no. And you tell me I need to level up? Like you're full of crap. Exactly. Right. So that's part of the issue. Or could be. So the other side is the ideal side is like you're actually leveling up. I start to notice and it starts to, it's a threat to me.

Because it's almost like an ultimatum. Without saying anything, you start driving like, I don't do something. I'm going to get left behind. Yeah. I have a more. Well, and literally too, because in many ways, it does become threatening to the actual existence of the marriage. And at some point, it should. Yeah. If one spouse is downward trending deliberately and intentionally, it won't turn around.

In my case, in my mind, that's a case for divorce. Like it really is. If the spouse is unwilling to make those changes and is continually threatened by you and won't do anything about it. Yeah. At some point there's grounds for divorce. But the, you want to get this point and I've had multiple over my career of helping men and helping couples. I've had multiple couples come in and they've expressed like my, my spouse is leveling up so much, changing so much.

Greg & Rachel (56:19.808)
I'm being left behind and it scares the crap out of me. And sometimes they're like, help my spouse not level up so much. Well, we don't ask people to come down. To our level. And in a few cases, it's like, no, but it's so scary. I'm like, great. Lean into the fear. Lean into the discomfort. Level up. And we've worked with couples that one of them starts to level up.

And the other one starts to notice and starts to feel threatened, starts to feel uncomfortable, then then starts trying something, starts getting results. And we've seen multiple times where eventually both of them are on absolute fire and they're leveling up together. And they went from really a humdrum existence to now living deliberately life on their terms, madly in love, hitting goals that are way beyond their wildest dreams.

And it is the coolest thing to see. And so rewarding. So it is drawing a line in the sand. And setting a standard. It is taking ownership for your responsibility to really level up. And then at some point, it is just a really difficult, hard conversation that's done with lots of diplomacy.

Multiple hard conversations over over time. So how how would you approach that rage if there was something? that that You wanted me to change And it just needs to be said it needs to be talked about Mm -hmm. How would you put it? Well, I know for me I used when we early on when we were married I used to avoid that I didn't want to have conflict

I didn't want to have confrontation. I didn't want to have difficult conversations. I wanted us to always interact in ways that were pleasant and happy and pleasing and feel good. But over time, I began to realize, and I started to see the pattern, that when we had our most difficult conversations, that often led to the biggest positive changes. And so I learned to, like, I guess, embrace it and almost welcome it. Not that I... Pavlov's dogs there. Yeah.

Greg & Rachel (58:35.748)
Not that I wanted it. Hard conversations get real results. Let's go. Well, and actually at this point I would say, yeah, I do want that. But we've learned to do the hard conversations in a way that's not necessarily unpleasant or negative. I feel like they're positives all the time, if that makes sense. Agreed. That doesn't mean every moment of it is positive per se. But I don't dread them, if that makes sense.

So I learned to... I live in such marital bliss that I can hardly remember the last time we had a... A difficult conversation. I can. I can remember the last one. It was in Turkey. Was it? At a hotel. At the hotel? Okay, I remember. And that was a... That was a hard one. No, actually we had a hard one. We had a hard one in the Sahara Desert. I don't remember that one. It was the day we were supposed to get family pictures taken. yeah.

But again, it was a difficult conversation. It wasn't good timing to have it, but we had it and resolved it within less than 30 minutes. That's how good we've been able to get at it. Where that was previously a situation that would have taken us a week, maybe, to resolve. To talk through, to work through, to figure out exactly what was going on and why we were each upset and hurt feelings and huffing and puffing around. And instead,

We had 30 minutes and we got it done and resolved it like and I'm talking about real resolution where we both feel better. We're not just faking it. We're not just pretending. Will you feel better? It's like we discovered the issue. We addressed it. We found out exactly what was causing it and then we created a resolution within 30 minutes and then could go literally move on with our the rest of our trip done. Right? That's what I'm talking about. But

The only way we got to that point is because instead of fearing or resisting those difficult conversations, we actually learned to embrace them and to encourage them or to push for them or to say, hey, no, we got to have this talk. And by doing that, it increased our ability and our skills to be able to have those talks and to have them faster. And they are the catalyst for true lasting change.

Greg & Rachel (01:00:56.736)
Like when you can have that difficult conversation about the proverbial elephant in the room, that's what actually creates change. But as long as you keep avoiding it and you don't talk about it, it's the wound that doesn't heal. That's what it becomes. And then if it happens again and again and again, you're just covered with wounds and you can't talk about anything. And no progress is made, no improvement is made, and that's literally how people get stuck.

Yes, you're spot on.

Okay, let's talk about the one in Turkey. Well, okay, and for context, for context, you wanted me to change. Yeah, wait, I was holding on to by a matter of principle. Yes, but for context just here, the Sahara Desert was New Year's Eve. So that was seven months ago. And then the Turkey one, these are the two most difficult conversations we've had in the past year. The Turkey one was a year ago in.

So right now it's July 2024. So the difficult conversation for the Sahara was New Year's Eve 2023. And the Turkey one was probably April or May 2023. And they were both resolved that day in short time. So anyways, back to the Turkey one. Was that a hotel in Turkey? I still feel so adamant.

this principle. It's a matter of principle. I was doing it on purpose because of something I... And I had known that about you. As a core, just in my training as an operator... Your beliefs, your philosophies about... My core philosophy about safety for our family and all kinds of things like that. I mean, this is a principle I live by. And so it wasn't like I was... It was just some nasty habit and some terrible thing. And I knew that and I had... I believe this and I did it... I was doing it deliberately, but...

Greg & Rachel (01:02:55.776)
And because I knew that I had been tolerating it for a long time because I knew your reasoning behind what you were doing. But I finally reached the point where I was done because in the principle you were doing and saying things which I felt were disrespectful to other people. And it felt embarrassing to you. And embarrassing to me. Yes. So mostly you were embarrassed.

I wouldn't necessarily say most I would say at first mostly I was embarrassed I think what finally drove me to firmly say something was when I convinced that it was also disrespectful to people who did not understand why you were doing right and I agree on that point. That was a convincing point for you. I never want to fire a shot at somebody who's inadvertently standing in the way of the person causing it right? Yeah.

I don't want to throw a punch at the guy who deserves it and accidentally hit the person standing in between them. Yeah, exactly. And so you just drew the line. You went up to our hotel room and you dropped the hammer in front of the kids. Because we're sharing a hotel room. And that was that. And you dropped the hammer hard. And I was still like, but and still to this day, I'm like, but those are the principles I believe in. I like I believe in the principle of practice, but.

I saw your point. I understood how much it means to you and how adamantly you felt about the other perspective. And so I'm like, okay, done. It's done. It's no longer an issue. Right. Because willing to have the hard conversation to draw the line and say it how it is. Now you weren't, you weren't mean. And I wasn't like derogatory or, or attacking. I simply.

Okay, it felt like an attack. Because when we have the hard conversations, it can feel like that. That's why we avoid them. Right. Well, yes, but it wasn't necessary. Okay, in some of these instances, it could be a straight up attack. And those may be necessary. Sometimes they are, yeah. Like you're doing this and it's unacceptable. Like this, I'm bringing the battle right now because it has to stop.

Greg & Rachel (01:05:15.072)
Well, and we've heard of that in situations, especially regarding to one parent's treatment of the children. Where they're like, no, that's wrong. And you're doing this. You have to stop that. This is unacceptable. And that can be the case with...

Lots of things. Okay, it happened recently with a couple I was working with, a gentleman I was coaching where he had had a porn problem for a long time and it got so bad and so ugly. Just there was a just hard, hard, hard stop and I recently heard from him. It's been like nothing. No looking, no nothing for several months, which is the first time in decades, I think. And they're better now than they've been maybe ever.

I was just, I was so excited, so thrilled. It's like, it's hard stop. Right? And the things that matter that are big are worth the big. They're worth that quote unquote attack. Yeah. The big thing. So, but you don't have to be mean. You don't have to be insulting. Right. There's no name calling, but you can let the emotion and the intensity come out. And I was very, I was passionate about it and I was persuasive. I was using debate.

techniques to basically convince you of why I believed what you were doing was not appropriate and so You know, but that's that's like it's not attacking. It's not attacking your character. It's not saying bad things about you. It's it's presenting the issue in a way that Convinces you to believe why my point of view may be correct, right? And where I have to I don't have to abandon my principles, right? I just need to

Greg & Rachel (01:07:05.692)
And so there's an example right there of the hard side of this. Again, we've covered so many things in this episode and they all matter. And it's, you know, when you say, well, how do I, how do I help my spouse change? We just gave you a multi -faceted approach. 47 things that you have to do, but it works. And your wisdom will help you know which one you need to use today.

And then tomorrow, the more you do and the sooner you do them, the quicker you get the results. So if it were me, I would do all of it. But that's just me. I would go all in everything. I'm like, Hey, if this is really affecting my marriage, is this really affecting our life? I'm going to go all in. I'm going to become obsessed with this and I'm going to do everything I can to have influence. I'm going to do everything I can to make it easier for you to change. If I wanted you to change something.

Well, and plus the more that you do and the sooner you do it, the sooner you get feedback. And that's really what you want. A lot of times too, people think, well, I tried this and it didn't work. Well, great. What you did receive was feedback. That thing for your spouse in this situation doesn't work. Try a different tool. Like we've given you a lot. Try a different tool if that one didn't work. Instead of like, that didn't work. I guess I'll just give up now. No. Keep going and keep.

applying and trying different tools until you get the ones that produce the response you want and you know it. I mean that's the easy thing. It's easy to tell if something works because you actually get a positive response or at least you don't get the normal response that you used to get because that is a positive response right when you're making changes and then you keep using more of that thing. And some of you guys might be sitting here listening and you hear the

47 things we mentioned you like how do I do each one of those more effective? Yeah Which is why you send us questions and we make more well Yeah more episodes, but that's why I have the master class and life challenge and Rachel is the 20 challenge with live coaching every week We're meeting and going over very specific things and how to get these things done So it's almost like it's an expanded view on each of the 47 interactive podcast because we're doing this but you're actually and

Greg & Rachel (01:09:24.96)
answering your specific question. And you're probably like, well, how do you do that? OK, what about this? And what if a spouse does that or a child does that? And then that's where you get it. I want to end by emphasizing as strongly as I possibly can, whatever you do, do not accept.

Non -improvement. Don't just acquiesce. Don't just settle. Don't just say, well, I can't change that. Or I can't change my spouse. So I'll just tolerate it. I'll just leave it as it is. Do not do that, please. In life, you get what you tolerate. If you just tolerate that, you're going to get it. And it'll get worse. It'll get uglier. It's not going to stay the same. It can't. You'll just build a resentment.

So whatever you do, keep trying to figure out ways to create change. And if you're saying to yourself right now, I've already tried everything. No, you haven't. If you've tried everything, you would have the results. Yeah. You wouldn't be still struggling with it. You'd have the results. So keep trying until it works. If you need coaching, get coaching. Rachel does coaching. I do coaching. If what you're doing is not working, do different things and do them better.

and maybe do them with more intensity or more maybe with less intensity, whatever. Like you got to figure this out until you get it to work. But 100 % it can work. We've seen it work so many times. I think one of the most rewarding things I get from the work you and I get to do is when we help one person and a couple months later they come back and they're like, my spouse is a totally different person. And the only reason is because I improved myself. I didn't have to say anything. I didn't have to do anything.

I just went into this strategy and within weeks or months my spouse is like, I'm on board, let's do this. Like that is so rewarding to me. And it's so powerful. We've seen it tons of times, so it works. Okay, love you guys. Reach upward. upward. upward.