Raising Neurospicy Kids: Parent to Parent on Raising Kids that Think Differently than the 60%

Raising Neurospicy Kids: Parent to Parent on Raising Kids that Think Differently than the 60%

In last week's episode, we explored the complexities of raising neurodivergent children with expert insights from Kim Pomares of Mendability. When I was getting ready for that show, I actually reached out to some friends of mine who have some neurodivergent children to get some insights from them about what I should ask to help parents out and get most out of that episode with Kim Pomares.

While I was talking to them, I decided that the only way to really dive into this topic is to hear directly from parents who live with this every day and who parent neurodivergent children. Now here's the twist. Not only are they navigating life, raising neurodivergent children, but one of the parents is also neurodivergent himself, which means he brings a whole nother insight to this situation.

This isn't just about raising unique minds. It's about understanding them from the inside out. And to be the best parents that we can be. So stick around because what you're about to hear could change the way you think about parenting [00:01:00] neurodivergence, and maybe even yourself, Cassi, Andy, thanks for joining me today, right off the bat.

What do you want to say to parents who might just be starting out on this journey of raising neurodivergent young people? We'll see how many times I can blow that.

Andy: Have patience. Have, have way more patience than you think you're going to have to have even for just, uh, when everybody's telling you that you're gonna have to have.

Oh, your kids are gonna be learning, gonna be figuring out things. Just have patience that it's going to be different than what everybody else is telling you. Everybody's going to tell you, Oh, have you tried this? Do this, do that. Have patience. Just have grace on that. Everybody's trying to help you. And every neurodivergent kid is different, and you're gonna have to find what's going to work for them the best.

So, patience and grace.

D Brent Dowlen: Cass, you wanna add anything?

Cassi: Well

listen to [00:02:00] everything and take in nothing. No. Um, um, yeah, no, he's right. Uh, no two neurodivergence are the same. So everything can work and nothing can work at the same time. Um, it's a whole lot of, um, testing.

Andy: It's a whole lot of, it's a whole lot of testing.

Cassi: Well, it's, it's. It's back and forth. And just because it worked yesterday does not mean it's going to work today.

D Brent Dowlen: Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential growing to the men we dream of becoming while taking care of our responsibilities, working, living, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. And in this podcast, we'll help you with those answers more.

My name is Brent and welcome to the valuable man podcast. Welcome to the Fallible man podcast, where we dive in everything about being a better man, a better husband, and a better father. A big shout out to Fallible Nation, our loyal longtime listeners and a warm welcome to you joining us [00:03:00] for the first time.

Hey, we appreciate you choosing to spend some time with us and give us a chance with all the options that are out there. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you. I hope you enjoyed the episode and get a lot out of it. My name is Brent. Today, my guests are Andy and Cassi who are parents of four children and friends of mine.

Andy and Cassi, welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. You guys want to introduce yourselves in any way before we start this?

Andy: Just a couple of parents of four kids and having to learn how to deal with neurodivergence in children and how making sure that they all work together to become functional, happy adults.

D Brent Dowlen: Now you guys have four kids, uh, gentlemen, I already told you guys. In the introduction, these are friends of mine. Uh, our kids play together.

We're, we're family friends. We hang out together and I've learned so much. I actually called Andy before the show I did with Kim [00:04:00] Pomeres from inability to get some insights from a parent on what kind of questions I should ask to give you guys the most out of that show and while I was talking to them, it was like, Oh man, I, I just need to have these guys on and get this whole perspective that only a parent is going to have now.

Not all of your kids are quote unquote neurodivergent and I right off the bat I am NOT real fond of the term just because it's such a broad spectrum We've

Cassi: started using neuro spicy in our household.

D Brent Dowlen: I Like neuro spicy.

Music: Mm hmm.

D Brent Dowlen: So as we dig into these topics today Your kids can fall on this broad Broad range and if you caught our show if you didn't catch our show with Kim Palmeiras, you need to catch it You But I've found out technically my youngest daughter falls on the neurodivergent list.

If you want to call it a list or [00:05:00] it's such a huge umbrella spectrum, right? It's such a huge umbrella. So you, you may be starting the show with this coin. I don't know if my kid fits on that. Well, Your kid may fit on that. Your kid may not fit on that, but you have kids in your life who do fit on that. So this show is for all of you parents and all of you people out there who have other kids in your life.

I promise you're going to get a lot out of it. Now, Walt, before we get too deep into this, guys, I want you to remember that you can go to my website, www. thefallibleman. com slash podcast extras. There is a downloadable PDF. There's no cost. There's no email required. You don't have to give me anything to get it.

This is a downloadable PDF that goes with this show to help you take what you hear today and apply it into your life even more effectively so you don't forget things because I know it's hard to take notes and that has the high points of the show and some information that you can [00:06:00] work with right now in your life going forward.

You can download it to your phone. Or on your computer, it's yours. No cost. That's just something I want to give you guys. How did you first start to recognize that your kids were, or one or two of your kids were neurodivergent? What were their, were their early signs? What? What did you see as a parent that clued you in?

Cassi: We actually had a wonderful pediatrician who told us, because number one was so far advanced, we just thought the delay in number two was normal. Um, and the pediatrician actually had us preparing for a non functioning adult.

Andy: We were kind of, I don't know if lucky is the right term, but the, the, our daughter who is, who is the primary neurodivergent daughter, she, Was mostly nonverbal when she was young growing up.

So it kind of prepped you for the idea [00:07:00] that, Oh, we're going to have, we're going to have some stuff to overcome. We were thinking just like therapy, you know, some vocal voice therapy, things like that, speech therapy. Uh, but as it went along and the, the AIDS that we had in the doctor, as she watched Nali develop, was able to give us a clue in like, you probably leave when she gets older, start having her tested for that sort of thing.

Cassi: And nonverbal isn't just, you know, children don't speak, obviously, but she didn't babble. You know how babies just blab, blab, blab, blab, blab, and they just play with their sounds? There was none of

Andy: none of that

Cassi: into nothingness all day and all night. No noise, except for when she wasn't happy. And then you'd get screams.

D Brent Dowlen: Well, good. No, at least that part doesn't change. Right. We know when

Andy: it's not wrong yet,

D Brent Dowlen: we're going to pause this conversation and we're going to roll our sponsor. We'll be right back with more from Annie [00:08:00] Cassi on parenting, neurodivergent children,

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And I think you will too. So let's get back to the show. You have four kids. How do you balance this? Cause I mean, you've, you've got to deal with in your household.

Andy: If you just want to put in a visual of a seesaw and a person standing in the center crying. No, that's not true. Um, No, a lot of it just comes down to, to making sure that you're being patient with it or, [00:10:00] or firm, you have to just approach every situation with the idea, okay, is this a standard reaction to this situation?

Or are we having, um, an overstimulation of some kind, where we're going to have to adjust for that, you know, and then it's also when we're talking to, you know, whichever child is having an issue. It's understanding, okay, think about a second, where are they coming from with this to see if it's easier to help them overcome whatever disagreement challenge we're having.

And the funny part is, is that it actually makes dealing with the non divergent kids, um, I'm not sure if easier is the right term, but it definitely does make a solid strategy when dealing with them. A lot of people like to treat little kids like some combination of pet or Alien, I guess. I don't know.

They don't really approach it right, in my opinion, in that regard. But if you just come at them and always think for a second, okay, what's the situation going on? Why are they, [00:11:00] from my perspective, overreacting, blowing up about something, and then trying to deal with that. And the same thing goes with their interactions with each other.

It's a constant reminder for, to their sisters, or their siblings. Um, she's not angry at you, she's not, saying that to be mean she thinks she's saying something just straightforward to you you need to give her just you know think about that for a second don't think that she's just trying to be a terrible person to you saying something really rude or mean and then vice versa then going back to the other child and being like okay i understand you thought you were being helpful there but i want you to understand how they took that it's a constant with that and then you know approaching every situation we come into Cassi handles this way better than

Mike Lindell: me

Andy: The making sure that when we're planning things were taking into account all of the Oh, this is going to totally over stimulate the kid for XYZ reason or making sure that we're front loading correctly [00:12:00] to make sure that they have the information that they need so that they're not going to freaking out or if we're We both know that, ah, the plans are changing, because life, you know, that's just how it is.

Eh, narrow, spicy kids don't always handle that well. So it's just being aware of trying to frontload that and mitigate that sort of thing, because we know it's coming. Cassi?

Cassi: The self awareness is huge. Um, we have lots of, um, discussion. Lots and lots and lots of discussion. In fact, my parents, my parents, Don't understand that because from the past generations you would just shut it down.

Um, but shutting it down then, for the, for the girls it creates a lot of masking. Um, and then they just learn to hide it and that's not necessarily healthy when they're older. Um, and, uh, for the boy, I don't think it would matter if we tried to shut him down or not. I think he'd [00:13:00] still just go ahead

Andy: and do it.

At the moment, he'd just be kind of like, Okay, and move on. But I guarantee you, as soon as, when he gets into the puberty range, if we can, if we just try to do the shutdown thing, boy's just shut down.

Cassi: Yeah. So it's, it's a lot of. Lots and lots of discussion and self awareness and, um, probably some parents would think too much.

Andy: Um,

Cassi: I mean, you know.

Andy: It does come across sometimes that we're, we're not being the parent in charge. It's not sometimes it does come across that we are trying to coax a co worker into doing something. I can totally see how some other people might think, Oh, we're letting the kids run, run a rough shot over us or whatnot.

But Cassi and I, we do have the agreement that we're trying to make sure that we're raising kids who will be able to. I'm going to be both functioning and happy in [00:14:00] society and teaching somebody to just shut up and sit down isn't the goal. And so that lots of talking to make sure that they understand why they're doing things, why we're, why we're doing things.

That's a fun one. Explaining to a child why the parent is choosing to do something is, uh, definitely a, an eye opener on when they come back. We're like, I didn't think that was why it is. I thought we were just doing this. No, we were

D Brent Dowlen: no, no guys. Let me paint you a picture here. Yeah. Cassi and Andy have four kids ranging from high school to how old is little one now?

Cassi: 17 to 6.

D Brent Dowlen: 17 to 6. Right. And on top of that 12

Andy: more years. 12 more years.

D Brent Dowlen: Andy, you're on the spectrum as well. Yes!

Andy: Fun surprise there.

D Brent Dowlen: And so this is their house. Age group, uh, [00:15:00] it, it's equally par set up with three and three. And you guys got your hands full as par. Any, any parents with before kids in that age?

From those age

Cassi: groups? Are are we just going with the autism spectrum or are you doing a DHD is also Neurodivergence.

D Brent Dowlen: No, A DH. ADHD is also NeuroD Diversion. I

Cassi: just got that diagnosis last year.

D Brent Dowlen: Okay, so , right. This is a fun household actually. Whole household of

Andy: fun.

D Brent Dowlen: Pop point. And Ill tell you, I actually have a lot of fun hanging out 'cause there's a reason we're all friends.

Uh, these are some of my favorite people to hang out with, because I, I feel totally normal in your house. So, I, I don't know, maybe my brain's hardwired and slightly weird too, who knows, right? And I don't like to be seen weird. Well,

Andy: that, actually right there, that's, that is the thing, uh, when it comes to the whole nerd divergence.

Uh, people, uh, I, I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of that phra that term either. Simply because That's just the term we're using for the 40%, not the six. That's all it is. You know, for people don't know what I'm talking about. There is what's called the, the, the bell [00:16:00] graph of standard deviations, standard deviations apply to everything.

You have a 60 percent range. You have the, you have the standard middle, and then you have a 60%, you have a 30 range on either side of it, of what's considered normal. Well, I'd like to point out that you're still on. You're still on both sides of this, of, of the standard middle, you're still, there's, 60 percent of everything falls within there.

And then you have the 20 percent on either side on the far end of extremes. Well, when you say neurodivergent, who are you referring to? I mean, how much of this bell graph of standard deviation are you referring to? Everybody's going to have some pieces that, of their personality that fall. On the weird side, you know, if you want to call it that whatever you want to refer to it as so I can it's very easy for people to be like, Oh, well, you know, how do I handle somebody who's who's off on the right?

Well, everybody is in some degree. And so it's kind of, I know it's it's easier for people to just understand. Okay, well, in this matter, I tend to be more like this. So just accommodating that sort of thing. That's a better way to probably approach [00:17:00] the these men, mental differences that everybody has, rather than saying some people are normal, and some aren't.

Yeah, not true, because I bet you if I go talk to your mom, she's going to tell me how you were weird, too.

D Brent Dowlen: Now for reference, the estimate is 50 percent of the graduating class of MIT is on the spectrum somewhere of neurodivergence. So for all of our listeners, understand this is not, this is a wide range from ADHD, right, onto the autism scale.

Uh, into people who would be considered obsessive compulsive, right? There's this huge range. And that's the first thing you need to understand is you, your kid may not be on specifically the autism spectrum. That doesn't mean that they're not neurodivergent in some way, or they are neurodivergent in some way.

So it's, uh, I, that that's out of, out of this whole conversation and the previous one, that's my biggest [00:18:00] pet peeve is right. It's such a broad term and I don't like it anymore. It frustrates me. Yeah.

Cassi: When we were testing Andy, this, for the, for, sorry, sorry to interrupt there, but the, they give you, they give you this huge long questionnaire and there's four answers to it.

And you're supposed to put down the answer that you think, that your reaction to the question is. And for Andy, the reason that we were struck because we were doing this for Annalise when we were doing it and he was like, well, yeah, she she thinks this first, but she's learned to do this one. So it's this because she's learned the correct, the correct answer.

And I looked at him and I go there. It's not a correct answer. It's what her initial just because she's learned. to go ahead, you know, to draw a line when you tell her to draw the line or whatever, instead of going off and she'd rather wa whatever the questions were. And he's like, wait, but there's two [00:19:00] answers for all of these questions.

And I was like, wait, what? It was the one that I initially think, but like the one that I want to do. But the one I know I'm supposed to do. So, and that's when, um, my mom actually had taken me to get ADHD tested when I was a kid. And the doctor asked one question, because it's back in the 80s, and, does she try to jump out of a car before you park it?

And my mom goes, no, and I'm not ADHD, but they never came to me to ask that question. Do you want to jump out of the car before it's parked? Yes. Yes, I do. I want that seatbelt off. I want to jump out. My mother will kill me though. And my self preservation is stronger than my knee jerk desire to jump out of the car.

Andy: It makes an interesting idea when it comes to some people, you know, you were talking about, here's all the. Yeah. Somebody can be, right? So, you know, everybody has parts of the piece. Um, one of the [00:20:00] things that I, you know, you and I, Brent, I talked about before you had that, the previous interview, um, one thing that a lot of people don't realize is that so, there's like different categories of, as we talked about, it's symptoms or, or, you know, that, that somebody might, that somebody has.

And then there's a level to that category. and how far along that level you are is, you know, severity, that sort of thing. So in terms of like what Cassi's talking about, She's considered low levels of ADHD because, yeah, she has that feeling and it's never gone away. What you, what a lot of adults like to refer to as, oh, it's just intrusive thoughts.

Yeah, they are intrusive thoughts. When you start getting on the ADHD flag is when those thoughts never actually went away and how hard do you have to fight those, like, letting those thoughts just happen. So the same thing, I, I'm down with her on that one, is it was, you know, you, especially when I'm in a lower car, you start coming up to pull out.

You can tell just open the door and just easy roll out of here. They don't have to stop. It'd be great. Wouldn't that be fun? [00:21:00] And I literally have just kind of like, no, sit still. You're fine. Just wait. And that's, that's the kind of thing that, that puts you on the spectrum for those things. Not necessarily, uh, you know, bad enough where people are like, Oh, you need drugs or medicine.

You know? Got it.

Cassi: Just the self awareness.

D Brent Dowlen: Now, let me ask you guys, cause one of the things that, uh, Annie brought up in our previous was navigating social interactions.

Andy: Sorry, I'm laughing only because I literally just had this conversation with with Michaela last night, my oldest, the 17 year old. So, uh, she told us that her choir teacher had commented to her that I don't like going to their choir performances. Well, the answer is I don't. I'm not a big fan of the music selection choices they do.

I also have a perfect ear, so sometimes kids get off and it's a little, eh, you know? And half the time I'm dealing [00:22:00] with the toddler, you know, the six year old. I don't know how many of you have six year olds, but going to four, to functions with a six year old is a challenge. You're gonna be nice. Challenge.

Challenge, right? Um, Well, she goes, Yeah, when your dad, um, Kayla asked me, she said, Did you tell anyone that you don't like going to the things I said? No, I that's that's an in the house statement. That's a not outside the house statement. We don't tell people that because they get frustrated and irritated, and I don't want them to take it out on you.

And she goes, Well, she knows because she said that, you know, you always look angry when you're coming out, you know, upset when you come out of the performances. I said, Oh, no, honey, honey. Remember, I'm autistic. My face wasn't turned on. Mhm. I, I, I was not in a social interaction. I didn't plan on being in a social interaction.

The face wasn't on yet. What you're all looking at right now, if you're seeing me, if you, if you're viewing the recording of this rather than just hearing the, the vi the visual of this. I'm a animated person. I have an, I have a very gregarious, uh, activity. I'm a very animated individual, but that's because I'm expected to, and these is [00:23:00] a learned habit.

Cassi can kind of can tell you she's caught me before I do things where I'm in front of the mirror where I'm practicing How I'm supposed to be responding to different situations I've been in to make sure that I'm having an appropriate expression and not having you know What what was the phrase RFB?

Isn't that the one? Isn't it? Isn't that what the kids call me? RBF thank you the resting B face Um, and I just, it's just because when if I'm not going to have a social interaction, it's just for anybody listening, I can guarantee Brent can verify that I just look like either a tired or irritated individual.

D Brent Dowlen: I I'm just laughing because I spent enough time with you guys. Like I It seems so normal to me. You don't think about it. Yeah. Andy and I, I sit around and talk and smoke cigars and, and talk about this very thing. It's like, I don't fit. I don't want to go to the concert. I don't. I get it entirely. [00:24:00] And I, To be fair,

Andy: I'd be a hermit if I didn't have my wife.

So,

D Brent Dowlen: Right.

Andy: I go to those events because I love my children and I, I want them to know that I love them. So I go to these events. It doesn't mean I enjoy it. There's a, those are two mutually exclusive statements. I, I always felt I never understood what people can conflate the two. We're getting off topic anyway.

D Brent Dowlen: That's okay. So, so let's steer back in. Um, so social interactions, you know, with different neurodivergent kids, right? There are different difficulties with some of that. Um, you guys have done an extraordinary job, by the way. Uh, I remember my daughter shared a conversation. That she had with your, uh, second oldest, when they started becoming friends, she told my daughter said, sometimes I say things and they sound mean.

And so you have to tell me that because I'm not trying to be [00:25:00] mean, I'm not trying to come across mean, but I don't always understand or know that I am being mean. So please tell me. And I thought, wow, that's an extraordinary amount of awareness, uh, at their age group, right? So you

Music: guys

D Brent Dowlen: are doing an incredible job as far as we still

Cassi: talk in the mirror before the day like Andy learned how to do

D Brent Dowlen: Okay, so this is something you've actually trained your children to do.

Cassi: Well her specifically because she's a lot like her dad. So Andy Andy's right when we first got together I thought he was cheating on me because I thought he was having conversations in the bathroom on the phone So Because all I heard was one side of a conversation and I'm like, Why is he talking in the bathroom?

Who are you talking to? He had to explain.

Andy: Because it didn't, it didn't sound like I was just, you know, like muttering to myself. It sounded like I was [00:26:00] literally talking to someone. No, he was having full on

Cassi: conversations and watching his facial expressions so that he didn't put people off, so that he didn't look like he had resting B face, so that he didn't look angry when he was talking, because sometimes If he gets passionate, that translates into anger on the face, even though he's not angry it, but it will scare people because it's passionate, but he looks angry.

Um, and so he had to learn which way to move eyebrows and how to smile at certain times. And Annalise still has not quite developed those yet, so when she makes statements, she'll think that they're funny, cause in her head playback they are, but she didn't practice it out loud so that she could watch it or watch her face.

Andy: So that's why she hasn't quite gotten those down yet.

Cassi: So I'm very, very happy that she [00:27:00] actually, um, that that means that that's a friendship that she cares about, that she opened up to that because she won't tell everybody that that's only people she cares about.

D Brent Dowlen: Sorry, Nollie, I'm giving away secrets on the internet forever.

I'm sorry. Forgive me. Okay, so

Andy: it's not YouTube. I'm fine with it. It's not, it's no, it's not, uh, it's not one of the standard, standard trying to go for entertainment purposes. You're doing this for a reason, so I'm down with it.

D Brent Dowlen: We're in for the education here. We want to help parent. So,

Andy: Although, admittedly, if she was on YouTube for entertainment, she'd probably be thrilled.

Cassi: That is, that is her dream job, is to become a YouTuber.

D Brent Dowlen: Remember when kids wanted to be astronauts and firemen and stuff like that?

Music: Right? Presidents? I wanted to be

D Brent Dowlen: the president. Now

Music: they want to be

D Brent Dowlen: influencers, YouTubers.

Andy: You know, I never thought about that. That's kind of, [00:28:00] that's a thing.

D Brent Dowlen: Lucian wants to be a

Cassi: firefighter.

D Brent Dowlen: Okay, well, well. You know, we've got one kid who still wants it, right? So what are some myths or misconceptions about neurodivergent children that you can help parents with right now? Because I know a lot of parents, right?

Cassi: They're not neurodivergent. They look

D Brent Dowlen: normal. They don't know how to respond. I, um, that one.

Cassi: She's not neurodivergent. She looks plenty normal to me.

Andy: You want the biggest myth, the biggest myth that you'll have is It's a, it's a thing you'll You'll get so many people who refuse to believe or acknowledge it. I, you know, I used to think those were just like the occasional horror story that you read on Reddit or something, but it is amazing the number of people that are like, well, have you tried?

Have you tried? I don't think it's that bad. It's not, ah, it's not that bad. It's just, you know, it's just this, it's just that, it's just this. She's just that way. You need to have a firmer [00:29:00] hand. Insert every piece of advice you've ever heard ever. And it takes us being like, no, we've had her tested. I mean, do you want me to bring her over here and have her ask?

I'll have her come over and tell you intrusive thoughts. Do you want that? Cause she will, she'll think it's funny. And that reaction alone should tell you that it's not right. You know, the, and then, then there's the flip side is the number of people who think they know. everything about handling kids who are neuro spicy, and they, they don't know what they're talking about the half the time, they're actually just spouting the same advice as the other people were giving you.

And then the other stuff that they're giving you is this nonsense thing where like, have you tried taking them out in the full moon and in planes, you know, Mozart, Sonata or something that'll fix everything. Have you read anything? [00:30:00] Those are surprisingly the biggest challenges that I, I feel like we find that we expected things to be this way.

And then it was like, Oh, no.

Cassi: The problem with the spectrum, um, our, our child ranks, um, we, we, they don't have a number when, when she first got tested, they were going to give her a three, but they figured she would get her speech. So that puts her between a two and a one. Um, if she can pay her bills, she'll be a one.

Woo. Um, um, but, um, There are pe like, the people that, that have the severely, uh, the, the, and they call it non functioning, and I hate that term, because they're still functioning, it's just not necessarily as a, um, independent adult, they may not be able to function as an independent adult. Um, and, but, but non verbal puts you on that far, far, on the far end [00:31:00] of the spectrum.

Because if you're nonverbal, then you can't, um, always get your needs across. And because of this, and you, you, you have those neurodivergent that are so Um,

I don't want to say difficult, but that are so, so, um, that have their challenges and parents of those ones and your child comes up who does not appear to have challenges on the outside immediately and they're like, Oh, yours is not, not neurodivergent. And it's like, we're going to have a hard time holding down a job because the first time the boss tells her something that she disagrees with, she may not, um,

Andy: respond right.

Cassi: respond correctly, you know. We like to think that she will, but if she's out of her spoons for the day, that's also another thing we use a spoon, you know, you wake up with a certain amount and [00:32:00] when you start dysregulating, you're out of them. And, um, and so it's, it's really hard because Some days, she's normal.

And I hate that term, but um, But it's always happening in, it's great. She's having, she's having to force herself to have normal reactions to things. Because everything is happening in there. When she gets home. And she's like, oh my gosh, I nearly cried. I was about to fall. I held it in though, mom. It's, it's, um.

Andy: Yeah, it's, it definitely the, when we were told that she was gonna be neurodivergent, neuro spicer, however you want to refer to it, you know. She's gonna be on the spectrum in some way. We, We, I didn't really know what to expect when it came to that, you know, we, everybody has the standard idea of, Oh, well, if you're going to be autistic, my dad, my dad for a while, help, uh, was an aid at, at, uh, uh, middle, high [00:33:00] school for kids that were special needs.

And you know, everybody has a certain idea of what some kids are going to be like that when it comes to it, but it turns out it's so wide, it's so different. And the challenges, you know, we thought we were, I thought we were going to end up having challenges like. You know, she's still not going to be able to figure out how to tie her shoes in high school.

Not having to walk her through every single social interaction that she has, and explaining, okay, here's the type of situations that it's okay to respond the way you want to, here's the type of situations it's not. You know, these constant conversations about everything, um, it made for a very different experience than I thought we were going to have.

And then we discovered that I was too, because I was taking her to a stoother. stoother. And that just threw a whole monkey wrench in how we were approaching this. I think for the better, frankly, but that was just a, it's definitely a very different experience than we, than we thought it would be.

Cassi: [00:34:00] Another myth is it'll write itself out.

It's okay, they'll be able to figure it out. Early intervention, early intervention, early intervention. Um, the school district provides therapies, take them all, even if you think, ah, they don't need, no, take them, because, just because they, your, your, your home is the safe space and they know how to function in your home.

But that does not necessarily mean that they can translate it into a classroom environment or into the playground environment or into a library environment. Just because they can do it correctly at your house, it does not mean that it will translate into another location, so that early intervention to have the it takes a village to have the people around you in the support system that also helps on a lease.

We had three therapies a week from 18 months until three years old. Um,

Andy: yeah, here's here's the point on that on that same regard, uh, [00:35:00] something that they're struggling with that they're having a big problem with all of their effort and and focus is going into to dealing with this one thing that's wrong.

That's their, that they're trying to fix. Well, that might be masking other things that, because they weren't paying attention to it, seemed to work right, so to speak. Um, well, if you finally get to the point where this is no longer a problem, Wee! Oh look, this other thing crops up that you totally thought was fine.

And like Cassi was saying, that's one of the reasons why any time that you're offered any type of thing, they're like, Oh, well, we don't think she needs you go. Yes, I think we should still do, uh, give her the help in that, uh, just so that we can cover all the bases for when crops up in a non normal situation or a non standard for her.

D Brent Dowlen: Now, guys, I want to intercede just for one second. Well, their audience, because we're split up between audio and video, you [00:36:00] guys who are listening on the audio side, you can't see their faces right now. And I encourage you to go back to the video as well, but I want you to hear the angst in their voice.

Their, their frustrations stem from the outside world, not knowing how to interact with their children. Not from their children, not from the fact that their children are neurodivergent. Their frustrations are hinging on the outside world does not know how to interact with their children, which makes it complicated for their children.

And kids are having to try and adjust to the outside world, expecting a certain box version of this is what a child acts like, thinks like, looks like, reacts like, and no child actually works like that period, whether they're neurodivergent or not. Much less kids whose brains are wired slightly different than whatever the terms are.

I hate all the terms, right? Neuro [00:37:00] standard or whatever. So it's not a, we're frustrated that our kids are this way. They're frustrated because as parents, they want the best for their kids, obviously, and the world does not know how to process their kids. So now they're not just raising their kids. They're having to try and teach their kids to function in a world that doesn't know how to respond to them.

And so if you have children who are in this world, Find a support system, find friends, loved ones, school support, whatever you can to help wrap your kids in protective layers to help them. So as they adjust to the world, not knowing how to respond the right way to them, they have a good support system in place.

Sorry. I just, I see the reactions on you guys faces and it's like,

Andy: Hey, you know what? I'm happy that you brought it up [00:38:00] because I won't lie. I hadn't considered it from that perspective. But yeah, no, that's really the biggest, that's the biggest thing. Every parent is going to know how to deal with their kid. Yeah, every parent has challenges with their child, whether they're neurodivergent or not.

I mean, think about it. Any of you who are parents and you can't, if you tell me that you've never had a moment where you screamed at your kid or wanted to at the very least, I'm questioning whether or not you're a pod person. Uh, the, the, the only thing that comes that's different when you have a neurodivergent kid in your family.

is that the extremes might be higher in how they react to stuff, or the responses might be different than you were expecting. And every parent, because you're growing with the kid, learns how to accommodate and deal with that. Whether, you know, whether you're doing it appropriately is a completely different point, but you learn how to make it work in your household.

The, the biggest struggle that we [00:39:00] always have is okay, everybody, we're leaving the safety of the home. Beware. You know, and having to deal with what comes out of it. Uh, it's an interesting, it's definitely an interesting point to have it stated out loud. You know, the biggest frustrations come from the external interactions.

Not necessarily influences, it's just interactions.

Cassi: Um, about three years ago was the first time she actually could say trick or treat. For her own candy to everybody like she could actually go up people and say trick or treat still won't look you directly in the eye when she says it. But, um, before then, there would be people that would withhold candy say trick or treat, say trick or treat, or you don't get any candy.

And that right that you're, you know, the outside world. It's frustrating because you have a child. First of all, she didn't speak until she was six. Mhm. So you're taking this toddler trick [00:40:00] or treating? She's not saying it Well. Okay. That's a little bit normal for a lot of toddlers 'cause they're nervous.

Five, 6-year-old, kindergarten, first grade. She still is not saying it because she doesn't speak yet. She's still in her speech classes. She has very, very short sentence. She can sign language, full conversations like crazy, but her speech was not there yet. So up until she's, and then, and then. She still wouldn't speak to men, so it's like, it's like, you hit these milestones, and they're completely, it's like, Yay!

You're, you're saying trick or treat, you know, to some people, like to the nice little old ladies, and the, some of the moms and stuff, as long as they're not in a crazy costume. If they're crazy costume, mm mm, not saying anything. Clam up. Um, you know, so, so watching these milestones, and it was, 10 years old, was her first time saying trick or treat at every single house, And it was [00:41:00] huge, like, I don't, it's, so Halloween coming, I was thinking about that, that was three years ago, and it's like, It's huge, but you don't have that for a neurotypical child.

It's like, okay, there are three. There's a trick or treat. Toddlers and

Andy: go, Oh, well, you know, they're just a little, you know, they're, it's a new thing, but you don't think about it. They go out of it pretty quick. Whereas, you know, we're dealing with it for a heck of a lot longer.

D Brent Dowlen: Let me switch gears on you guys for a minute.

You mentioned over stimulated and that was something that we talked about several times with Kim, Kim Primera's. I'm going to keep butchering his name. I feel bad now. Sorry, Kim. Um, that is a reoccurring thing I've seen with most kids. Who are neurodivergent, no matter what it is, where they are, what the neurodivergence is.

How do you handle your kids being overstimulated?

Cassi: Well, it changes with every child and with every age. So [00:42:00] like I said, what worked yesterday does not necessarily work today.

Andy: And it's also a misunderstanding. A lot of people, when they hear, oh, the kid's overstimulated, they all think of the, you know, the kid that they saw on the TV show who puts their hands over the ears and starts screaming because of some reason or another.

But that's not how kids respond on that. Some, a bunch of them just shut down. It's amazing how many neuro, uh, neurospicy kids, when they get overstimulated, it's literally just overwhelmed and they don't know how to respond anymore. So they just are like, And don't do anything, or they become, um, easily, for lack of a better term, easily triggered.

Uh, they're overstimulated. They seem fine. They seem fine. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. And then somebody bumps into them, or somebody says something, or somebody, you know, something that normally they'd be able to handle just fine, suddenly they're in tears. or they're like raging angry, you [00:43:00] know, it can, it can be very different depending on the situation and what, you know, what's causing the overstimulation and, uh, the, the situation that causes the straw that breaks the camel's back for it.

For handling it, it can be anything as simple as making sure you front load. The child letting them know that, okay, this is the situation we're going into and they're better able to handle it. But again, that depends on the kid's age and how well they've taken to, honey, what were the, what's the phrase again?

Uh, self soothing. Is that the right term? I forget.

Cassi: Yeah. Um, so yeah, Annalise actually, when she was younger, like I said, non verbal, except for, She, she would scream when she was unhappy and so, um, the therapist, again, therapy from 18 months old on, so we've, we've, we've had therapies, um, and so the, [00:44:00] um, uh, behavioral therapist, the ABA therapist taught me, um, it was a hold, it was a pressure hold, basically, so you wrap your legs around and you just kind of hold them and rock them and you just kind of, you know, You know, when they're a baby, you do that naturally.

Which, from the outside,

Andy: you look like you're pinning the kid.

Cassi: It's, it's, it's the swaddling effect. Um, but when, when we got our dog, she would have meltdowns and I would go to her and I would, And I noticed her meltdowns were not happening as often, and our dog actually trained himself. He noticed her meltdown before I could notice a meltdown.

Um, and he went and laid down on top of her. And as she got bigger, he would shove her into the wall, and like, push her up against the wall and give her that, that comfort, and she'd be petting him, and that would be her self soothing. And I didn't have to do the pressure. Hold nearly as often or as much and yes, um therapy dogs are [00:45:00] really expensive and we got blessed by the pound Dog, we got just being smart enough to notice.

Andy: I won the dog lottery and I didn't know it

Cassi: Just to notice what was happening And he he took that on himself. Um,

Andy: I thought he was just big and she was petite. I didn't realize that he was doing the pinning thing. She's the one that noticed all of this.

Cassi: So yeah, so yeah, he was doing the pinning down for her.

And um, so weighted blankets helped. Um, and now she, you know, as a 13 year old, she doesn't want to be touched anyways. So, we're coming back to that around to meltdowns are happening more often. And, um, and that's where like Temple Grandin made herself the machine that gave her the hugs. Cause she didn't want people to touch her.

You know, so that, that's a huge, pressure is huge. Um, I used to have a student who would hit his head on things. [00:46:00] Um, Um, when he got overstimulated and so I gave him my hand and he would press his head into my hand so hard and then he'd be fine because I didn't want him, you know, cracking his head open on the wall.

So you have to find what works for your child and there's a million different options out there. There's a million of them. Some kids will struggle out of, of the pinning hold. Again, early intervention. I had been doing it since she was 18 months old for those meltdowns. She found it comforting. If you don't start until they're five or six, they might not feel, feel it as comforting.

You know, cause that's, that's. Five years of not no con of not having that, that contact. So you have to find out what works for your child. Um, she now just goes and reads when she starts feeling herself, getting overstimulated. So that's helpful.

Andy: That's another thing [00:47:00] of there are habits that modern society would refer to as rude or.

Disassociative or you know, you know, non social that are very typical responses that neuro divergent kids Want to have sitting in the corner reading a book at a gathering of some kind. Oh your child's just anti social No, my child just can't stand being around everybody right now. It's freaking her out.

So I'm fine with her being over the book She'll come back out of it, but that's also So this was the so this is something that's a big thing as a parent and it was one of the first that concerns I brought to Cassi when we when not only was getting, uh, an IEP for school. I did not want her to be listed as autistic.

I did not want her to be listed for that because, not because of how she was going to be treated by the outside world. I had a very big concern because of [00:48:00] how intelligent and standard functioning I saw Nolly to be. I didn't want her to use it as a crutch. I did not want her, it's a, it's a thing in today's society, we have so many people who run around going, well I'm this so I don't have to do this stuff.

I'm this so I can behave this way. And it makes me want to gnaw my phone in half when I see those sorts of things online. And people are like, well I'm this way so I can just do whatever I want. I didn't want Nolly to do that. I don't. want her to be like, well, I'm autistic, so I don't have to, uh, merge with society.

And they can all just go jump off a pier. Can't, didn't want that. So when it comes to finding the things that help her deal with things with any neurodivergent kid, finding whatever those soothing methods are that help them deal with overstimulation. Yes, finding what they are and encouraging the child to utilize them is extremely important, [00:49:00] but also teaching them to not overindulge in them.

Because as any non, you know, a semi and even semi anti social nerd will tell you, if I was given the chance to go in a corner and read a book, why would I have come back? You know, I don't know. It's just how it is. You have to teach the kids to have those moments where like, okay, do the thing to make you feel, but to, to help you relax and not feel so stressed, but you then have to go back in again.

You, you, you have, you do have to keep going back into that lion's den of whatever situation is, is bothering you, because

Cassi: you

Andy: have to. That

Cassi: also does start building those, um, those connections back in their brain. And, um, yeah. With all the research and stuff, you, neurodivergence is a new diagnosis. Um, but it happened.

I mean, we [00:50:00] just, I can look back into high school and I mean, shoot, you know, myself, not diagnosed with ADHD. We were just the oddballs. Um, you know, um, and sometimes people were a little bit more odd than others. And you're like, huh. So it did happen, but we just learned how to cope, mask, et cetera. You can make the connections.

Now, a lot of those people suffered from massive anxieties and depressions because they didn't understand what was going on in their brains. And I'm thinking, I'm hoping with all of our new knowledge and being able to discuss and front load and Um, under the self awareness, that, that will help the children, um, combat any possible, cause everybody says, you know, if you're autistic, you are dealing with anxiety and depression.

Um, and, We're

Andy: hoping to keep those particular [00:51:00] parts

Cassi: down. Yeah, we're, we're, that's, that's, that's our goal. Um, oops, speaking of the devil, I've got the school calling me. I have to go. Minute.

Andy: Yeah, to what she was saying, the thing about one of the things about neurodivergence that a lot of people don't get is they think, Oh, well, you, that means that you're this way. It's, um, they a lot, a lot of people think that when it comes to neurodivergence, they think, Oh, well, that means that that part of that person is just, uh, born abnormally and is never going to get fixed or changed.

Well, for, uh, for a lot of, of these things, it's just that your brain is wired differently. It's just a different format that your brain was wired. You can still create the standard reactions that people are looking for, just takes way more effort and practice because it feels very unnatural compared to what other people are doing.

Um, the, uh, uh, [00:52:00] uh, the, the reaction of how, how I react to how some people will tell me something. I used to, when people, when I was given any news that was not good, somebody's like, oh yeah, this thing happened to me, this or that, I would normally just sit there and be like, oh, I don't know how to respond with that, you know.

It took a, it took a lot of practice after having it pointed out to me to know that I need to make a conciliatory face. and sound, you know, concerned and be like, I'm so sorry, you know, are you doing okay? That, that type of reaction, it seems so normal for most people. Most people would be like, Oh, I'm so sorry.

I feel, you know, you have this empathetic response to people. I had nothing. I didn't know that. I didn't know that was the way I was supposed to respond to people. So when, especially when I was younger, when there was, you know, the deaths and families or accidents happened and I'd get told this happened and I'd be like, Oh, okay.

And now sometimes it's a little overboard. And it

Cassi: goes, oh, I'm so [00:53:00] sorry. And it's like, that was too much.

Andy: Sorry.

D Brent Dowlen: There's

Andy: no winning. Let

D Brent Dowlen: me ask you guys. Kim really stressed that you should help your child, but the more important thing is that your child is happy. So you should help them adjust as much as possible.

As long as they're happy, but not necessarily push them over. How do you feel about that as parents?

Cassi: Amen. A hundred percent truth right there.

Andy: With asterisk at the end.

Cassi: Yes, I, so, um, witnessed it with my mom. You know, every once in a while, she'll, she'll push and push and push. Um. Because again, from that generation, I'm like, mom, you've got to stop.

You need to pay. Look, look at what's happening to the eyes. The eyes are starting to get the blood. You know, you can see micro tells in the child and maybe as a parent, it's much easier for us than the people around. But, [00:54:00] um, it's like, there's, there's, there's a point where you do, you stop pushing because you're going to get a shutdown.

You're going to get a blowout. You're

Andy: Brent, I know your audience. A lot of you guys are weightlifters. I know you guys like to do, to do workouts. All

Cassi: of these

Andy: experiences, all of these experiences that Cassi's mentioning, it's the exact same as overworking a muscle. The, the emotional connections, the mental connections, the reactions.

Pushing a kid to a uncomfortable position. Well, that's, that's human nature. You want to push people into uncomfortable situations. That's what helps you grow, right? Um, with a neurodivergent kid, it's no different than when it comes to working out a muscle. You keep pushing that muscle and you make it to make it grow, make it grow.

But guess what? If you push it too far, it's Or rupture or pop or whatever the, get a muscle group, whatever action you're doing, it's going to cause problems. And the same thing happens when dealing with little kids. Yeah. [00:55:00]

D Brent Dowlen: Guys, I know we're on a time limit today, so we got to like start to land this plane, right?

Yeah.

Andy: We talk too much. I'm sorry.

D Brent Dowlen: No, no. You guys are amazing. And you know what, my audience, if you guys are getting a lot out of this, if we need to have a part three to this conversation and I need to get them back, we need to keep going, let me know and I'll, I'll reach out and we'll schedule and we'll figure out how to do a part three for this as well.

If we need to keep going, but before we wrap it up, what is the most important thing you want to tell parents of neurodivergent children right now?

Andy: Watch and listen. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's actually a simple thing that we taught our oldest that I think applies to every interaction you have with your kids. And I think this applies to everybody with kids, period, frankly, because it was such a surprise thing to hear from my mother in law that said it.[00:56:00]

Are you waiting to talk or are you listening? And taking that question and applying it to all the interactions with especially a neurodivergent child. Interact with your child. But don't just wait to tell them what to do. Don't just wait to tell them how they're supposed to be. Listen to what they say, ask them questions, listen to what they say.

And you'd be amazed how frequently they'll do it back for you. And you can get a lot further. That's me.

Cassi: Um, mine is, um, early intervention. Um, like I said, the doctor told us at 18 months that no, she's not hitting her milestones. We need to get her tested. I don't know if that's available in every state. I do know at least in the state of Washington and California by three years old, they are.

A part of the school district. And, um, as long as they have a special ed preschool program within that school district, you can get them tested. So their three year old birthday, you are on that phone with the district office to say, Hey, I am [00:57:00] concerned about my child's development. We need to get him tested or her tested.

Um,

Andy: and

Cassi: that's, that's not going to give you a diagnosis. The school doesn't diagnose, but the school does put down autistic like tendencies or, um, attention deficit tend, you know, that they will put that down, um, speech impediment, whatever hearing problems. They can you'd be amazed how frequently

Andy: those districts if you tell them that you're like, hey, I know you can't give me a diagnosis I'm looking for just confirmation of behaviors It's amazing how much more open to the idea of that kind of evaluation.

They are

Cassi: you're that you're you're your child's advocate Your child doesn't know that there's nothing that that their brain is not working the way that society says it should work so you're the one there that Yeah, it's you. It's all, it's, it's your, you're their advocate and you are the one who knows your [00:58:00] child the best.

So if you think that there is something, stand up for your child and don't take no for an answer, cuz just because they look normal. Yeah, when she says

Andy: early intervention, she doesn't just mean looking to find issues that your kid's having and trying to find the, find it the earliest and work through it.

She means, Early, you need to intervene on your child's behalf as early as possible. When it comes to either dealing with themselves, dealing with their siblings or dealing with the rest of the world, you need to be the one that intervenes as early as you can, because that gives them the most time to catch up.

D Brent Dowlen: Guys for Andy Kassi and myself, we hope this helps you a lot. Let us know what you think. If you have more questions, if we need to do a round three, we got to talk Halloween and trick or treating. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Be better tomorrow because what you do today, and we'll see you soon.

David McCarter: This has been the fallible man [00:59:00] podcast. You're home for everything, man, husband, and father. Be sure to subscribe. So you don't miss a show head over to www. thefallibleman. com for more content and get your own fallible man

Music: gear.