Lone Wolf No More: Embracing the Power of Men's Circles

[00:00:00] On this episode of the Fallible Man podcast, discover how to build meaningful connections in your life and family, overcome loneliness and find genuine companionship, embrace vulnerability as a strength and cultivate a supportive tribe that lifts you up. Join us for an enlightening discussion with men's coach and podcaster, Jason Lang.

Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential, growing to the men we dream of becoming while taking care of our responsibilities, working, living, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. And in this podcast, we'll help you with those answers and more.

My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Your home for all things, man, husband, and father. Big shout out to Fallible Nation. That's our private community. There's more information about that. If you're interested down in the show notes or description, wherever you're watching the show and a warm welcome to our first time listeners.

Hey, thanks for checking us out. We know that there is a lot fighting for your attention these days. So it means a lot to us that you're taking the time to check out the show. [00:01:00] Please be sure and connect with me at the fallible man on most social medias. And let me know what you thought of the show. I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

You really enjoyed it. Be sure and leave us review on apple podcast and come back around. We do this twice a week. Today, my special guest is men's coach and podcaster, Jason Lane. Jason, welcome to the fallible man podcast. So excited to be here, Jason. It's going to be a good conversation, but we like to start out on the lighter note.

So how is your trivia skills? Depends on the topic, but you know, I got a quick, I got a few arrows in the quiver. Okay. Okay. Well, I looked these up, so, you know, it's hit or miss whether I get one that's in the right area for you. What is Bruno Mars's real name? Is it a Peter Jean Hernandez, B. Michael, the Gene Stevenson, C.

Ray Aguilar, R. D. Bruno. Marzia. Mott's. I can't [00:02:00] even say that Mott's or that one. I'd go with the last one, but I have no idea. Okay, guys, you know how the game works. Don't cheat. Don't skip ahead. Don't look it up and for God's sake, don't write it down. If you're listening to this in the car, just remember what it is and come back later and we'll deal with that.

Oh, so groundbreaking earth shattering question that we're all concerned about. Jason, I don't do big introductions. So in your own words today, who is Jason Lang? Yeah, I'm a, uh, father first and foremost. I'm a husband and I'm a man who loves to help. And so a lot of that's born out of my own journey as a, you know, human being on this planet who has been trying to figure out, Hey, how can I do this life in a way that is, uh, full of love, full of.

Impact and in trying to figure that out for myself, I, uh, I've kind of fallen into helping other men do that. So I just love supporting other [00:03:00] guys. Um, I'm also a big nerd in the sense that I love movies and film and music and invest a lot of my time into just enjoying and exploring that world as well.

So lots of things I'm passionate about, but particularly probably movies and men are probably the biggest two. Okay. So we're a movie. So, yeah, I, I always got to clarify where that was. Someone was like, I'm a nerd. You got to clarify, right? Cause I'm, I'm a huge movie nerd. Yeah, great. Totally like sync up on that.

But then you get like, I had one guy, I asked a question and it was a D and D question. He's like, why couldn't it be like space nerd, like aliens and stuff? Yeah, sure. Totally. I don't do fantasy. I do like space nerd. I'm like. Ah, so complicated. It is a, it is a vast world. That's true of, uh, of nerddom these days, you know, in a lot of ways, I think we've won the culture, right?

Everybody, everybody is a nerd in some [00:04:00] place, whether they want to admit it or not, they got that one or two things that they're just like, you get them there and they completely nerd out. I have one guest. We swapped recipes, Italian recipes for like 20 minutes. Cut an entire like 20 minute portion of the show out.

Cause we just. We nerded out together, swapping Italian recipes, right? Uh, so yeah, you never, you find that right spot for people. So what's, what's your favorite movie got to ask? Oh, I have so many, man. Uh, I could list this for eons and eons and eons. Um, so again, it kind of depends on the, the, the genre, but you know, deep cut here, so this is a film nerd one for sure, but I love my uncle by Jacques which is a, uh, like from the fifties, uh, just an unbelievable.

French movie. Uh, I don't know if you've ever seen any of them, but it's about this, um, character and they're essentially silent movies made well past the silent era, but they are the most [00:05:00] visually stimulating films one could imagine. And they're hilarious. They're just hilarious. So highly recommend checking out any of his films.

Those are ones that I would just go to anytime. Like kids find them funny, older people find them funny. They're just immensely entertaining in a way that movies aren't really made. Like that anymore. So yeah, I love, I love those little hidden gems in there. Have you seen a sunset, the sunset limited? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Most people never heard that film. Oh my goodness. Talk about like, it wasn't like a huge visual, like. The whole thing is a conversation between two men. It's a brilliant movie. I love the subject matter, but I would also watch those two actors discuss like recipes for gravy or something.

That's when you know that they got the chemistry, right? I'll just sit here and watch you talk. So how many kids you got? Uh, just one. [00:06:00] Yeah. I got one four year old. Yeah. All right. Four is a fun age. I've got a nine year old and a 12 year old. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're in a different, getting into a different phase.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm getting into, I'm feeling old age. My, my 12 year old is starting to do stuff with the youth group at church and Uh, my nine year old went to her first sleepover this last weekend and my stress levels went through the roof. I've got, it's like, no, you know, she's never been away from home without us.

One of us with her. And it's like, uh, the whole night I'm on edge just waiting for my phone to ring to go get her. I, I'm a slightly overprotective dad. Just a little bit. Fair enough. Anybody listening, that's just me being honest. I'm, I'm definitely a little bit overprotective. Uh, what is your best playground insult?

My best playground insult? Let me [00:07:00] think.

I was never a great, I was never really the insulter in some sense. I was always the peacemaker on the playground. Um. You know, it'd probably be some kind of fart joke. I don't know, you know, nothing, nothing too complex here. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Zombie apocalypse, what's your weapon of choice? I would probably go with something very basic, like a, uh, sword or an axe.

You know, that's not gonna, that, that, that if tended could last a very long time, that's not ending anytime soon. Right. There's a lot of logic behind that. I love people who are like, Oh, I'd get a big gun. It's like, what happens when you run out of ammunition? Exactly. Got to think these things through.

Coffee, tea, energy, drink [00:08:00] soda or something else entirely. These days I'll have tea and I have about one coffee a day. Mm-Hmm. I, I did about a year and a half decaf and no caffeine and just lightly sprinkling my toes back in these days. Oh my goodness. I'm sorry, . I, I have a background in it and, uh, some other fields and I, I live on caffeine.

Mm-Hmm. . The funny thing is like, I, it doesn't. I don't know if I technically fall into like the A DHD scale because it doesn't hype me up. Yeah, yeah. I'll drink coffee all the way up till I go to bed and I, I, I sleep like a baby. Yeah. I got, I did the um, um, the genetics thing number eight years ago and it actually showed that, uh, I have, that there's a slow caffeine gene.

Where you metabolize caffeine much slower than other people. So I think you and I have the same thing where like, I don't get the [00:09:00] big jitter, like, it's just kind of like, Oh, a little more here. All good. I know clinically ADHD diagnosis, like actual legitimate clinical ADHD. Cause I used to be minister. It has the opposite effect.

Like I had two kids. I would buy coffee on some trips. Sure. Are like five hours driving to go somewhere as a group. I would pull over and like buy them an expresso. Take this now. Yeah. Cause on an actual legitimate ADHD diagnosis, it will bring them down. That's amazing. Yeah. That, that's, I mean, the biggest, cheapest way to find out if you are a, if you're like all the time and coffee slows you down, consult your physician, uh, cause we're not doctors here, but that's, that's the big giveaway after working with teenagers for 20 plus years is [00:10:00] like, Oh, okay.

Now I know. Yeah. Amazing. What purchase of a hundred dollars or less. Have you made in the last year that's had the biggest impact on your life? Uh, just coming out of, you know, kind of the winter illness season. We got one of those, uh, handheld vaporizers where you can just breathe in hot water, essentially.

Oh man. Just, uh, when you're all congested, just sit back, breathe for like 15 minutes. It is amazing. It has been a game changer for us. We had like an old one. You'd have to like. Be in the kitchen standing over, you know, the counter. It was so uncomfortable. And I was just like chilling on TV, kind of, you know, it looks like a space mask in a sense, but, um, I huge recommend my wife and I are just like totally on board.

Really? I'm going to have to go to the store after this. I I'm the guy standing over the boiling pot on the stove. Yep. Totally. Yeah. That's when you just hit a little button. You can put some essential oils in [00:11:00] there just easy deep breathing so good during this time of year Yeah, especially with kids right when you have sickness constantly coming through the house I just I'm a lifetime sinus sufferer.

Like I have really like just clinically bad sinus issues all the time I'm always stuffed up. There's there is no clear. There's manageable, then there's knock you down non function phase. Uh, but manageable is I can breathe with about the oxygen flow of about, you know, 20 percent of a normal person. Yeah, man, it's, I don't have it that strong, but I do have a pretty deviated septum.

So like this side is pretty non functional, but this side, you know, I can get some airflow, but yeah, man, it's annoying. It. It slows you down in life, not being able to, I had an ear, nose and throat specialist be like, wow, your life has had to suck. I was like, what do you mean? She's like, the glands in your [00:12:00] nose are so oversized that you have like a paper width of air flow on each side of your nose.

She's like, I, it's had to, I was like, I was a starter on every team I was ever on. She's like, think of how far you could have gone in sports. If you could actually breathe like a normal person, you know, I didn't think my life sucked until you said that. Thank you very much. You know, I could have performed that much better.

Yeah. Thank you for that. That's a hindsight I didn't want. Yeah, it's, it's, um, For me, it's actually quite impacted my sleep is probably the biggest place. So I'm now on the, just get all the things at night to have a good night of sleep where I do the nose thing, I do the mouth tape and it works though. I gotta say I'm about two months in and I am like.

Waking up full nasal passages, which I'm like fully open. I'm like, wow, this is totally different than that. Not, not covered in a pool of drool. Like I [00:13:00] usually am. How's the mouth tape. I've never actually, I keep seeing the, yeah, it's great, man. Brand. Yeah. Yeah. I got them on recommended from another friend actually.

Cause they're like, um, it's one of the only ones strong enough to. handle facial hair. Um, but it's great. Yeah. You know, by, by the time I wake up, I can't even feel it's on anymore. Just kind of interesting. Cause body's like so used to it. Um, so it just kind of disappears. But I, yeah, I found my sleep quality has gone way up.

And, uh, cause I used to be a mouth breather and, you know, tossing and turning all night. And now it's like I wake up in the morning and I'm breathing through my nose and it's just like, ah, my mouth is nice and humid and you know, not all dry and gross. Um, so it's been a total win for me. Oh my goodness.

Well, I don't know if you guys are getting much out of this, but I am. So I'm buying mouth tape now. Who knew? See great conversations. That's why I like to talk to people. You'll learn things when you talk to people, Jason, if I sat down with your family, what is one [00:14:00] funny story they'd tell to try and embarrass you?

It would probably tell stories of me, um, honestly, just, like, getting so into action figures. You know, I was just the kind of kid that would just play and play and play in my, like, own little imaginary world. Uh, my favorite thing used to be, um, after we'd like mow the lawn, be taking all the grass clippings and like making little forts for my action figures in the corner of the yard.

And man, I would just like be out there in my own little universe for hours and hours and hours. And, you know, it was, it was fascinating to them. They just called me. Yeah, I was on in my own little bubble, you know. Hey, there's there's nothing wrong with that. As a dad, I love seeing kids with enough imagination that they can do that.

Totally. Yeah, it is fun not seeing my daughter do the same thing. [00:15:00] Right? You're just like, yes, you know, because that's that's a kid who's never going to truly lonely. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Imagine and play by themselves. And I love that. If you won 10 million tomorrow, what would you spend on, um, you know, getting things secure for my family.

So just creating a stable base of investment for. The future of my lineage, you know, would be the, the first thing, second thing, um, you know, I'd probably do one of those like around the world, golden tickets where you can just get on any plane or train, um, and finally take the time to, you know, see quite a bit of what I've never seen.

And bring the family along for that and just explore, man, explore all the wild different geographies and cultures that I have some ideas about, but you [00:16:00] know, the, the traveling I have done, it's just always so mind bending for me to actually be there and do it. And, um, man, I would love to take a trip like that if I had unlimited funds.

Be nice. What's one totally random fact that people don't know about you? Um, I am one of the, one of the places I'm a nerd is a fucking love. I love sharks. I just, man, I grew up, you know, a shark week, uh, aficionado and always the kid checking out the shark books from the, um, library. And I cannot wait, you know, on the travel front one day to do one of the diving expeditions and actually get in the water and, Just see these, you know, the big old great whites in particular, I think, would just be awe inspiring to, you know, an animal that's, you know, Just kind of been doing its thing for as long as we know, you know, just out there and, uh, as they've learned more about them, you know, and now we can approach [00:17:00] them in different ways.

It's like, they're basically just super chill. Almost 98 percent of the time, you know, they think you're a seal. Yeah, you might be in some trouble, but otherwise you can just kind of hang out with them, which is like so different than, you know, when I was raised, it was, it was putting blood in the water and they'd get into a frenzy and, you know, jaws and people just had these demonic, um, thoughts about them, but they're actually, you know, just relatively chill fish sharks.

You, uh, do Instagram. I do. Yeah. Yeah. We checked out ocean Ramsey. Oh yeah, man. That's just man, that footage, right? Every time I'm like, stunning. My, my future sister in law, uh, has dove with her. She's a white girl and she's gotten to dive with her and she loves diving with sharks and stuff. I'm like, no, I'm good.

Thanks. I'm sure I'd be quivering the moment I do it, but man, I've been around large land mammals, but man, and I love the water, but you get me, you know, [00:18:00] I like being the top of the food chain, or I'm the top of the food chain in their world. I'm not, and I know that it's a self realization of it's like, yes, there are things scarier.

Got it. Yeah. So I don't, I don't think sharks are evil. I just know it's like, once I'm in their element, We are now not on level ground as far as right Yeah, definitely a power differential once we get in the water. That's for sure. That's very cool sharks, huh? Yeah What's one thing everybody should know about you before we dig in today?

Everything should know about me man. I just care I'm just a man who cares about other people about the planet about culture about love about I care and I've oriented a considerable amount of my [00:19:00] life around caring. It's fair guys. We've been getting to know Jason just a little bit, seeing who he is, what he's about, what he's like, or in this part of the show, we're going to talk about Jason's company, what he does, his podcast, and we're gonna start talking Diving into the myth of the lone wolf versus the pack.

Now, now, Jason, tell us a little bit about evolutionary man and what you're doing there as far as coaching and how you got there. I mean, is that always what you've done or. No, it's definitely been a journey for me and, uh, my life, my work's taken many, you know, career moves and whatnot. I was a filmmaker for a long time, did a lot of media production.

Um, but it really all started the journey here started in my twenties. And actually even earlier in that, um, I, you know, was raised in a pretty great [00:20:00] family, but didn't really have any emotional connection in it. Like, so all my needs were kind of, you know, met in terms of just place to live, food to eat.

Parents did what they could, but there was no interiority to our family and our ability to connect with each other. So I grew up pretty lonely and grew up not really knowing how to connect in a lot of ways, not feeling very comfortable in my body. And particularly as I became a teenager and became interested in dating, that really started to, um, become apparent in my life and I just didn't know how to do it.

And so I spent all my teenage years and, uh, pretty much most of my twenties alone and single. And, uh, the only. Not the only, but one of the positive things in there is I always just happen to have a pretty solid small group of men around me, male friends who, you know, particularly in the earlier years where it was around video games and nerd stuff.[00:21:00]

Then as I got into my twenties and, you know, was really finding like, wow, I don't feel good in my body most of the time. Like, I just don't feel good. I don't feel happy. I often feel anxious and stressed and uncomfortable. I kind of stepped on to the path of inner work and growth and did many, many, many things.

Um, but the one that was probably the biggest profound shift for me was in my mid twenties. I got into my first men's group, right? So I got, got connected to a bunch of other guys who were just wanting to grow as men, as, as humans. And that really set a trajectory for me in, in a lot of ways, um, had me take some bold moves in my career and take some risks.

Really. Got me evolved, so to speak, in my inner world and my capacity to connect to others and how I felt about myself. And I just stayed on that train, you know, even as I moved around the country, um, I formed a new men's group when I moved and was just [00:22:00] so deep into it. And. Was naturally often talking to people about it of like, Hey, here's something I'm doing.

It's been really useful for me. And then guys in particular would start to ask me like, Oh, Hey, can I join? Do you have any space in your group? And I'd be like, in my group at the time was, you know, a closed group. So it was just eight of us. And we, where we met, we literally didn't have space for anyone else.

So I'd be like, no. Um, but you know, I'd highly suggest checking something out. And after a while enough guys asked me, um, that I was like, huh, maybe, maybe I should do something for some of these men. And so I just started leading groups on, um, two Mondays a night in my, uh, living room of my house and things really just kind of grew from there in that I started doing that more and more.

I started getting, um, more energy for it and I started getting, you know, financial reward back. And I was like, wow. I love doing this. It, um, [00:23:00] seems to be something I'm good at. There's a huge need and why don't I give it a go? So I pivoted to, you know, becoming a men's group coach, um, back in like 2018. And I've been doing it ever since.

And I love it. You know, I do them online. I do them in person. And I'm just really part of my mission is, you know, every guy should be in a man's group. And I feel like the world would be a much, much better place. And a lot of us men would be a lot happier and just thriving more in general, if that was the case.

Tell us a little bit about your podcast, the evolutionary man podcast, right? Yeah, it's called evolutionary men. And, um, it's me kind of just sharing most of the time about the different things I've discovered in my journey that help men in particular lead. In their lives and including their love lives of like, what does it take to be a grounded, present, impactful man in [00:24:00] the modern, you know, modern day, uh, one of the challenges, a lot of men I work with, and certainly it was true for me, um, struggle with is, you know, there's so much talk these days around the toxic masculine and the dangers men bring to the world, but there's not a whole lot of talk about like, well, what's the positive Right.

What's the healthy version of the masculine or men and what are our role models for many, many of us, men, as I, as I often say, uh, If we're lucky, we maybe got it exposed to three of the kind of primary archetypes of, uh, of men, one of which is, you know, I kind of call the old school macho jerk. It's just a guy who's like, goes out there and does what he wants, takes what he wants, um, tends to be pretty focused on himself and doesn't necessarily, uh, care a lot about the people around him.

And oftentimes those men can acquire a lot of power and [00:25:00] succeed and achieve in different areas of life, but at great cost, sometimes to relationships, the environment, uh, culture, et cetera. Then in kind of the, the response to that, you know, a lot of men grew up, grew up seeing volatile men or abusive men or men who abuse their power, you know, whatever that might be.

There was the emergence of what we call the nice guy. You know, which was kind of coined by my friend, Dr. Robert Glover in his book, The More Mr. Nice Guy, which is kind of the opposite of that. So it's the man who's totally present. In his heart, very sensitive, very safe, really cares about taking care of people around him.

But often, um, the cost of that is he disconnects from himself, his own power, his own wants, his own needs, often struggles to set boundaries. Um, in, in many different ways and is often left feeling frustrated in life, not getting the types of [00:26:00] relationships he wants or not getting the type of work he wants.

And that one doesn't really work. And then there's also what I kind of call the, the stoic, right? Sometimes we get from our grandfathers or just other different men who are the kind of men that just. Show up, do their work, you know, are technically there in their lives and communities, but it battened down the hatches in terms of their, their inner world, right?

They never show any weakness, never show any emotion, tend to be kind of pretty isolated. And that one doesn't work either, right? All three of these end up causing a lot of pain for men. So like, what's, what's beyond that is kind of what my podcast is about is How do we become men that are rooted, grounded in our power, open and sensitive and deeply aware to what's most important in our relationships and our culture and our family to be able to You know, give our gifts and create safety and lead in the world.

And guys, that's evolutionary men, right? [00:27:00] I made that mistake looking for it earlier. If you type in evolutionary man, you don't find his show. It's evolutionary men. Yeah. No, totally. I was researching for the show and I'm like, why isn't this coming up? I know that, Oh man, man, I, I interchanged men and man, I think probably a little too frequently when I type things.

So, Yeah, no worries. It's it's with an E it's men, not man. Uh, so if you're looking for his show, use the E because you'll not find it. Otherwise my own little idiosyncrasies, I, uh, I'm so used to typing the fallible man, like I automatically hit the a muscle memory on the keyboard, right? Totally. Now it's interesting because we see this, I think we're [00:28:00] starting to see some changes in this.

But all of us are familiar with the lone wolf concept, right? Guys, raw Ryan, the lone wolf. And that's where we get, I think, as you called the stoic aspect, right? Is a lot of where that's rooted in. I am my own world. I am. I just need me do it yourself. And this has not actually been a very functional thing for men.

So let's talk about being the lone wolf for a minute. Yeah, it's a, it comes at us from, you know, many angles for one. Um, just the expectations and kind of cultural beliefs of what a man is supposed to be, that, that's one area we get it, you know, men are supposed to be tough, we're not supposed to be weak, we're supposed to work hard, um, we start to kind of absorb these messages.

And then, you know, depending [00:29:00] on what kind of culture you were raised in, you know, locker room talk for a lot of kids when they're young can be pretty brutal. Right on the playground or, um, in small groups or whatever that might be, you know, if you're, if you're a man and a boy in particular, and you show some kind of vulnerability or emotion, it's pretty easy to get torn down for it.

Right. And be taught, okay, we're not supposed to do that. So I can't. I can't show any weakness around my friends, otherwise they're going to, you know, cut me down or bully me or whatever that might be. And so I got to keep that all inside. Uh, it starts to form there. And then, you know, particularly, you know, I'm here in the, in the States and there's a deep thread of this woven in.

To, you know, America, our culture, the rugged cowboy, the rugged individualist, right? The frontiersman who just survives and picks himself up by the bootstraps and doesn't need anybody is kind of the expectation of like what a, you know, a solid powerful man is. And like you said, the truth is, um, it almost [00:30:00] never works that way, right?

Those men are often on the inside are actually quite suffering. Um, for many, many men for many, many years, the medicine of choice was alcohol. Right. So yeah, I can be tough. And what does alcohol do? It numbs you out even more. And so I can keep pushing my body or disconnecting from people. And in general, it just creates this whole paradigm of, yeah, we're supposed to be, we're supposed to be the lone wolf and men are competition and it doesn't work.

And I see in work with so many men who are suffering because of and it's just intensified. In the last years, you know, through the pandemic, through changes and, um, kind of society and culture and the way people connect and the move to work from home, men and men are becoming more and more isolated in particular, way more than even women.

And this, I'm going to do it all by myself. It creates so much pressure and [00:31:00] so much strife for men in particular. And this idea that the lone wolf. Is the, the model is so flawed, right? Cause even in the actual, um, nature we steal that term for the lone wolf is the one that was actually kicked out of the pack and they never live as long.

They die the fastest, right? Once they're no longer part of the pack there, it's not because they're the best or they're thriving. It's because. They've been ejected, right? And their life expectancy goes way down. And the same is true for us as human beings. I mean, the stats are crazy in terms of how loneliness can impact us.

Um, just as dangerous as poking, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. Being severely obese, like it has an actual impact on our lifespan, how long we're going to live in the world. This stuff really can take men down [00:32:00] in the crisis just keeps getting more and more extreme in so many ways. And so, yeah, a big part of what I'm here to do is, you know, bust that myth that the lone wolf is not where you want to be.

You want to be part of a community and it's. Those guys, particularly, you know, men in community with other men, what I say, that become the most resilient and able to tackle the stresses and challenges, challenges of life with energy and with vitality and with a lot more connection. Is

there anything. Let me, uh, ask this carefully, is there anything positive to take out of that concept? Um, sure. I would say a certain amount of, um, resourcefulness and being able to, you know, have agency and drive and motivation in your own life, [00:33:00] uh, is important, you know, not to be totally dependent on others.

You do need a certain level of self actualization, I would say. But the thing I found is, you know, a lot of men, we set these like lofty goals for ourselves in terms of our careers or health finances or relationships. And then we don't resource ourselves. To actually accomplish them and then these things become ways we beat ourselves up subtly inside I didn't do that thing or I failed that thing and that gets really hard on us Whereas again the power of a good group or a good community.

It doesn't stop us from Moving towards the things we want but it's another container to hold us accountable and support us to moving towards what we want. So ideally you have that self drive, but then you have a collective, a community to support you for, [00:34:00] through when things don't go right, or when you need a little hand holding, or when you feel stuck.

And what I found is men get more done when they're in the group, like they actually start to take more action in the world. There's a, there's kind of a paradox of when we feel safe, we can take more risk and when we're severely isolated, oftentimes our nervous system is not feeling safe. And so it's harder oftentimes to take the bigger risks.

So you do need, you know, a little bit, but Again, being in a group, it, it, it actually fuels it even more. Like, it's incredible.

I know this is a really big, I don't wanna say an architect. Like I said, I see this a lot in stoic practices, uh, being with men. Does not come naturally to some men. Now, [00:35:00] I want to say that out loud because I want our audience to hear this. If this is something you have to work at to be around other men, you're not broken.

Nothing is wrong with you. It does not inherently come to people. Right. For some, some of us, it's just not a natural instinct. Now I say that because I do think men should be in communion with other men. Uh, I did not used to think that I had very much of a lone wolf personality for a very long time. The men in my circle have always been a very, very small select group of guys, and it's one or two.

It's never been, I've never gotten along with men otherwise. Like I've never been a guy who got along with other guys. And so this idea is something I've had to actually adjust to in the last couple of years of my life, and I have to work at it. It does not come [00:36:00] instinctively for me, gentlemen. It's not something that's actually very comfortable for me still.

Uh, if you guys follow me on social media, I posted a picture Saturday. From, I was at a big men's Bible study. I go to every month and there was like 30 guys there. And for me, that's, that's a stretch. I have social anxiety issues anyways, but that big of a group I'm having to learn to try and be a part.

And they're all very high value men. I think the world of those guys, but if you're not instinctually part of this, right, if this doesn't come naturally, please understand it doesn't mean that you don't need it. It also does not mean that there's something wrong with you. It just means you may have to work at it a little bit more.

Now. I have been really surprised the last couple years because we've seen this come up in media for the first time in like the movies. I thought you would appreciate this as a, as a fellow movie guy. [00:37:00] Are, are you a Kipling fan? Um, Kipling, the actor, the Jungle Book. Read their rod yard. Oh, oh gosh. Um, a little bit, yeah.

So they did the live action one. Disney's been doing the live action stuff. That's right. One of the things they talked about was the law of the jungle. And the pack where we recite that the wolf on his own will die because the strength of the wolf is the pack and the strength of the pack is the wolf.

Right. And that's right. Yeah. You guys are watching on the video. I've got a scrolling across the bottom of the screen. I threw that in there in case you've just never seen the jungle book. And if you've just never seen the live action jungle book, I know Disney has not hit their batting average on the live action movies has not been great.

But that one was actually pretty, pretty cute. [00:38:00] Uh, as a lifelong, I grew up, the jungle book was one of my favorite movies. Uh, it was one of the first books I ever read, like just actually read the book. Um, and so I had to see it when it came out. Seeing Scarlett Johansson sing the song for the snake, be called was amazing.

That was, yeah, but I was really like, they, they recite this, the law of the jungle multiple times in the movie. And I was It was one of the first times I really noted is like, Oh, wow. This is the first time I'm really hearing them say in a movie. The lone wolf is a bad thing. Right. And I mean, obviously it's not the focus of the movie, but as somebody who works in the men's space, my brain went, wait, they said it out loud, right?

Take note. And then it was actually in a song of ice and fire in the TV adaptation. Sansa Stark says when the snow falls, the [00:39:00] wind blows. The lone wolf dies. But the pack survives game of Thrones. Got a lot of attention. I don't know if you're a game of Thrones fan for sure. But when they said that, right, this was a saying for the Stark household.

There's one of the households in the game of Thrones. It's like, okay, wow. We're starting to see this actually gain some traction where we're talking about men need to connect. Right now, obviously it was two girls having that conversation in game of The concept is breaking this lone wolf concept. Uh, and it was nice to see that because when you start to see, finally start to see something in the media, totally, which is usually not your best friend.

Uh, it's like, okay, so there, there's enough people starting to have this thought. For the media to reflect it. Now, let me be clear on that. Not everything the media reflects is popular [00:40:00] thought because the media is really bad about engineering what they want you to think, but for it to actually show up in a show, it was like, Oh, okay.

I don't understand one of the things that's always baffled me. Cause you know, I, I was that kid who grew up on the Rambo movies, the John Wayne movies, right? The lone wolf action heroes. Didn't Chuck Norris actually do one called lone wolf? I wouldn't be surprised. I grew up on all those movies. My dad was a eighties action junkie, right?

Ditto. Which was funny. Cause he was a preacher. So, um, Um, I'm trying to think back, right, with some hindsight at 44 years old of what the appeal was. Now that I've started to try and purposely have men in my life and have groups of men that I associate with and interact [00:41:00] with, I'm looking back in hindsight trying to figure out what the appeal was.

Any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I, again, I think it's just kind of woven into the American myth and ethos, right? This kind of indestructible man who doesn't need anyone and can just survive. On his own, um, and, you know, I, I can go pretty deep on that. Like, for me, I think there's some pretty big shadow in that, because when you set that up to be the paradigm, right, that, um, even this, this phrase, we pick ourselves up from the bootstraps, right?

That we, a man should be able to figure it out and lead his life and all of that by himself. Um, what that does is it shifts really all of the responsibility to the individual. And it means that if your life doesn't work out right, or something goes [00:42:00] wrong, it's your fault. You didn't work hard enough. You didn't take care of yourself enough.

Um, you weren't, you didn't have high enough character. And while all those things are important, It creates a pretty big shadow in the society, in my opinion, that yeah, you're on your own and if you can't handle that, it's, it's your problem, right? So if you lose a job, it's your fault. If you get sick, it's your fault.

It's not anyone else's fault. And, you know, we want harmony and balance with all these things, but that's, it's, it's pretty woven in, you know, it's pretty woven into the, So many, so much of America, right? This idea that, yeah, you can just do it all by yourself. And the truth is nobody has ever lived that way sustainably on the planet.

Like, we can think we're independent, but we all rely on other people. We all rely on systems around us, and I think that's just one of the big shifts here and, [00:43:00] you know, it's fun for, you know, action wise, like you can create more drama, you know, just in the idea of the literally the lone cowboy having to shoot off and all that kind of stuff.

But even a lot of the great old tales, right? They weren't about individuals, you know, the Magnificent Seven, Seven Samurai. It's about the collective coming together, right, which is far more powerful than the individual. Yeah. And those stories are there. There was just, you know, the 80s in particular were that time of, um, self, self, self, go, go, go, you, you, you, the individual, right?

You gotta, you gotta work harder, work harder, work harder. And like I said, that's an important attribute to have. But it's ultimately not sustainable and it causes a tremendous amount of suffering in particular for men, because then when their life isn't going well, they hold it all inside and then they hold it in their bodies.

And then there's no, they're not really given the tools for how to deal with that. And that actually shows up. In terms of physical ailments, the older we get, you know, men get [00:44:00] sick when we're isolated, we get sick more easily, we die sooner, um, our, our life satisfaction goes down like these, these things have a real impact.

And when we don't know how to handle our emotional stress, let's say. What do a lot of men do? They turn to substances outside of themselves to try to make themselves feel better. If what's happening in my body and in my heart is too uncomfortable, then I need to feel something else. For some men, that's booze.

For some men, that's weed. For some men, that's porn, sex, masturbation. For some men, that's food. For some, you know, there's countless ways us men will kind of Do that because we're often not given the tools for how to be with our internal experience in particular, we're not given a community to experience that in and all of the most challenging, you know, emotions and experiences in life.

We're meant to feel in community. Right. We're meant to grieve in community in [00:45:00] particular. And our culture creates no space for that. Right. No space for men to just be like, ah, man, I, I feel heartbroken right now. And when they don't have that space to do that, men just tighten up, keep it inside, try to trudge forward.

And it catches up, it catches up with so many men in some way, shape or form eventually. And you know, part of what I'm here to argue is not only is it more effective to get into a group and surround yourself with community in terms of the things you want to move forward in your life. It just makes it better.

Like you're going to have the same stresses in life, but being in connection makes it so much easier to be with those stresses. So kind of long winded answer. Nope. I like it. I like it. Let's talk isolation versus solitude for a minute because you mentioned isolation and well, [00:46:00] I'm, I'm, like I said, I have to work personally to be around other men.

It does actually, uh, I'm a bit of an introvert, so there is a slight depletion. When I'm around groups, right? So solitude is very important to me, but I think a lot of men sometimes misunderstand the concepts of isolation versus solitude. Yeah, that's great. Um, you know, what I would say here is the, the key thing is just being around people isn't enough, right?

So it's very easy. And probably many people have had the experience of you can be around people and still feel deeply alone. Meaning, I don't feel connected or a part of the people I'm around. And that's what in particular, it creates the most, um, harm for us long term. That's a little different [00:47:00] from isolation, right?

Which is just sometimes I just need to take space and a lot of men do need to take a lot of space. I'm also an introvert and, um, definitely need my time. And I way prefer personally going like super deep with two or three men than being in a huge group. That's better for my nervous system. But the point is, um, you know, even, you know, for me, I can give an example of during the pandemic, right.

I was already in a men's group and I just had my first kid, you know, which tends to be an isolating time anyway. But it was pretty much a non thing for me because most of my social needs, you know, before my kid was born, because life was just crazy coming through my men's group, we'd meet every other Monday.

Sometimes, you know, we'd hang out in between and even when the pandemic come came, you know, we did some groups online for a little while and then we moved to like backyards where we could have space. But the [00:48:00] rhythm of the group went uninterrupted. So every two weeks I was sitting down with eight of my favorite men and going deep and talking about what was real and alive in my life.

So I never felt lonely during the pandemic, right? Because I was able to go deep, I felt connected to, to my men. Um, even though I was spending a lot more time isolated, you know, other than my wife and my kid in that. And the, the key thing here is, it's okay to take lots of space and lots of time, but you want to know there's a place Meaning some relationships where you can bring your full self and feel connected and in a part of right and it doesn't have to be a huge group.

It can be just 234 people in your life that you really feel comfortable being yourself and in particular for us men. Being vulnerable with, right? Revealing what's hard in your life and where you're struggling. You can just kind [00:49:00] of put it all on the table. A lot of times, just sharing those kinds of things already starts to shift the energy in our nervous system or our life.

So there's a huge difference, right? You can be around tons of people, but still feel quite lonely. And you can also not spend a lot of time around people, but feel quite connected because the people you do spend time with. You know how to go deep with and they see you and they feel you and you can talk about real things, you know, the one last thing I'll just kind of point out here is, um, one of the challenges us men have is most of us are raised to relate to other men through triangulation, which means you and I hang out when we're hanging out.

Our attention is on a third thing, right? It's on a sports game. It's on some activity. It's on nerd culture. You know, we're talking about something and our connection comes from us having [00:50:00] our attention on that third thing together, which there's a time and place for that, right? Like, I love that stuff. So I'm not here to say, um, don't do that.

But I'm saying is you also have to match that with actual relation to that. Which means when we're together, my attention is on you and your attention is on me. And we're talking about the experience of being with each other and what our lives are. And a lot of men, we've never been taught to do that. So that can make us deeply uncomfortable in our nervous systems.

But that's often where the, the greatest connection comes from. That really can then source us against the stresses of life. Guys, we've been talking a little bit about what Jason does and the myth of the lone wolf versus the idea of being in a pack or in a community and how that adds value to your life.

Why we think it's important in the next part of the show, we're going to dive into how to start connecting with [00:51:00] those groups. One of the things that's complicated for a lot of men is they don't really know how to plug into those groups and they see it as this daunting thing. Because they see it as, Oh, I've got to go jump.

No, you don't have to go jump into this. So we're going to help you with that. And the next part of the show, I had to work really hard in the last couple of years, I have hit the point in my life where I realized that I need those communities and I need to be part of those communities, but it was not a natural instinctive thing for me.

So hopefully Jason can give us some insights on how connecting with other men in groups can work for us. Uh, and you, one of the things you mentioned briefly towards the end of the last segment was it doesn't have to be a large group. It can be three or four guys that you just deeply connect with. So let's get into this.

Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll start there. So, you know, I've been part of a few different groups throughout my life. [00:52:00] Um, I'm a bit of a men's group junkie, so I'm in, I'm in many, but, um, one of the longest standing for me is my local group here. I live in Los Angeles right now and I've been with these guys since, um, early 2014 and how that group started, you know, case in point here was me and two other men who decided, Hey, we want to start meeting because we need it, right?

We need some support. We need some accountability and we want to go deeper. Right. We don't want to just connect and talk about the shallow stuff, but like, yeah, what's going on? What are you experiencing? What are you wanting to move towards in your life? What's in the way? Um, those were the kinds of conversations and connections we wanted to have.

So the three of us just decided. We're going to do this. We're going to start, we're going to start meeting. We picked a day and a time and we started meeting and we were pretty committed to that. And then we expanded the invitation, right? To some other [00:53:00] guys like, Hey, here's the thing we're doing. You want to come check it out?

You can sit in for a meeting or two. And, um, if it becomes something you're, you know, interested in joining longterm, we can talk about that. And it grew, it grew from there. And like I said, we ended up capping ours. I think our biggest at one point was nine just because the space we meet in, we literally couldn't get more bodies in there.

And for the rhythm of our group, that's about what's appropriate. You know, I, I find the sweet spot for most men's groups in my experience is, you know, Yeah, you know, six to 10 men beyond that. It's kind of hard to get everybody connected in one meeting. If you only have, you know, a couple hours, what I love about men's groups is they can be totally decentralized in the sense that.

You don't have to go find one even you can just start one right and there's ways to do that and things You can do to kind of tighten that up and you know, what's the framework your group? What do you want to focus on often groups have a theme or you know something that connects them? [00:54:00] Point being like any man can be the one who puts the flag in the ground with a couple of guys He feels a little just spark or connection to of hey, let's Let's take this deeper.

Let's take our lives deeper and let's start meeting. So that's available to anyone, you know, anytime, any place, any man, which is a great starting point. Then, um, you know, there's also more organized things to get into, right? Church groups like you spoke about are one of the few places men's groups are still flourishing in a lot of ways that men can go and find community.

Um, I think that's part of what's been hard for a lot of men is, Um, you know, a lot of people aren't as involved as they used to be. That was one of the main areas for men to socialize and get connection and get community just beyond, you know, their immediate vicinity. Um, there's also, you can go on to things like meetup.

com or eventbrite and, you know, kind of search in your area. Like are there any groups meeting already? Any [00:55:00] men's gatherings of any kind? And you can always go kind of check out one of those or audition them. Um, you know, there's obviously poking around online trying to find things. There's more and more organizations coming online to support men in these ways.

Mine is just one of many. Um, probably the longest standing for a long time was one called the mankind project. And, you know, they have, they really have a presence in pretty much every big city across the world now. Um, but with any of these, you know, you want to find the one that works for you. And it might try taking, you know, a couple of chances and sitting in on some groups and finding who do you vibe with, whose values align with you.

And who do you really see yourself investing this time in? So it does take work to get out the door, but it's always worth it. Um, another thing I've also found tends to work well, Brent, is for guys, [00:56:00] um, going on retreat or going to a workshop because once, You spend some time with men, you often get connected to them.

And then it's like, Oh, we want to keep this going. So a lot of guys I work with, you know, they came to one of my retreats and then they just met a couple of other really cool men and they wanted to stay in touch. And then lo and behold, that kind of blossoms into their own group, um, long term. But the idea is, you know, you're picking a certain group of men.

It can be, you know, virtual or in person. That's the kind of amazing thing about where we're at now. Um, I'm choosing a time and a place where you're going to meet with some consistency. And in that time, we're not just talking about the surface stuff, right? We want to actually get deep and connect, connect to our bodies, connect to what's most important in our lives right now, share about where we're struggling and sometimes get some counsel for other men.

You know, as I like to say, one of the real powers of men's group is it's a place where we can be supported when we're feeling down and things are. Quite going how [00:57:00] we want, but it's also that place, you know, the flip that we were talking about a little earlier, where we can be held accountable to move the things forward.

We want to move that are most important to us in our life or to be encouraged to come back into integrity if there's any places in our life where we're not right. You keep saying you want to do this, but you're not actually doing it. Or that experience you're having in that relationship. Like, man, that, that doesn't seem really fair to either of you.

It's like, maybe it's time to change that configuration and come back into integrity somehow. Like groups, um, have been transformative for me in, in, in that sense of really helping me get my life more and more aligned and on track. Guys one of the things we talked about in the last part a little bit is this concept of triangulation, right?

That's how men tend to connect with each other is you and I focusing on this and this is one of the things [00:58:00] where we're actually going. Nature, uh, against nature for guys, if we're not careful. So let me, let me throw this out. Cause this was an issue for me. You can, part of the reason we're drawn to triangulation is as communicators we're side by side communicators, not face to face communicators.

Men, it's actually in our nature to stay away from the face to face because at our most base level, that is an active conflict men instinctively. That's a challenge. When you come eye to eye with another man, that is an active aggression for a lot of guys instinctively. Even if you don't realize it down at your base core, we're talking the base base systems of your personality as a man.

You instinct instinctively [00:59:00] know that that is an act of aggression to come eye to eye with another man. A lot of times it's okay when you're shaking hands or something like that, right. And confirming, but the. Areas for men where that seems okay is very small, which is why we're drawn to this idea of triangulation, right?

We have something to connect with. So when you're trying to meet with other groups, you can still have that outside piece and still connect, right? We're not saying you have to sit face to face, eye to eye and have a heart to heart with other guys. You can sit around. And, uh, I sat down one night with three other guys and we smoked cigars and had a drink on a patio at a cigar bar.

And we talked and we had deep, meaningful, connected conversations in a very non [01:00:00] confrontational way, because we were doing something together. This allowed us to have that third piece where we're not having to stare at each other and just feel awkward, which for some of us is very, some guys can do it.

And I I'm all for the guys who can do that. Some of us, that's a very awkward feeling. And so without having that thing to distract you, right. Don't watch a football game and think you're going to connect if you're focused on the football game, but you can add. Doing something together, right? Guys can fish together.

You can walk together. That's why guys talk better in the car to other people than they do. First side face to face a lot of times. So there are ways to get around this awkwardness that some of you might.

Yeah, it's a real thing and it, you can practice, you know, like I do do a lot of work [01:01:00] with men in person and it is pretty challenging for some men just to make eye contact with other guys. They just right. They look away. They're feeling comfortable. They laugh, but it's a capacity. We can learn to develop because even underneath being men, we're all humans, first and foremost, and we're actually wired for that connection, right?

There's a huge bundle of nerves that goes down our center channel from our spine to the base. That's called the vagal nerve. And that nerve is wired to be receptive to face. Face to face eye contact and speech is actually one of the primary ways we can co regulate each other as human beings. So just you and I making eye contact, seeing each other's face, taking a breath, certain, uh, tones of vocalization in particular, like, lo and behold, it turns out that, um, folk music, you know, there's a reason people have been singing it for a long time, because that [01:02:00] tone is very soothing to our vagal nerve.

Point being. Co regulation is when we do connect in that way, it actually is what sends the signals to our body to move out of fight or flight into rest and digest, relax. And so many of us are overstressed and in this constant, activated, hyper aroused state now, that this type of connection is one way to do it.

And when I say that, it's not like we're spending 12 hours a day doing that. Sometimes just, Two minutes can completely change, um, your nervous system. And, you know, it's important for men in partnership as well. You know, you're having a fight with your spouse. We want to eject. That's actually the time you need to co regulate each other.

Um, but that you're right. The other thing to share here is, you know, in some sense, the oldest men circle there is, is sitting around a fire, right? There's a, there's a locust for our attention, and then we're able to speak into it. And for a lot of men, they actually find that more freeing because it's, oh, I can talk, I can share my deepest thoughts.[01:03:00]

Challenges to the fire. It's not quite as vulnerable as sharing it directly to another man, even though he's right there and that works, right? So just as important is the face to face. The idea is, you know, even more than it physically being face to face, the object of our attention is each other, right?

We might, it might be framed around something else, a fire or smoking cigars, but the point of why we're here is actually to connect is to bring more depth to our interactions. And like you said, you can link that around hiking, sports, hunting, fishing. There's lots of ways to do it. Where you can take the interactions you're having and start to bring them to this deeper level without it even having to explicitly be a men's group of the type that I tend to lead.

There's ways you can bring this connectivity into your existing relationships and improve them and really get to know each other in a deeper way, you know. Sometimes I'll work with guys who have been struggling around this for a long time and they, you know, they come to some of my groups and [01:04:00] then they're the ones that open the door.

For some of their existing friendships where it's like, yeah, we, you know, I talked with my brother in law in a way I've never talked to him for 25 years. And now I know things about him. I never knew before, like, and we had spent, you know, years together, but we had never really taken that time to drop in with each other.

And that's the kind of thing that becomes possible when, um, we learned some of these tools and we consciously start to step into, um, these types of connections. So guys, I, I threw in my two cents on that just before you guys who are waiting into this. If this idea seems scary, it's approachable. You need other men around you.

You need other solid, strong men of character around you to help you become your best self. I thoroughly believe that at this point in my life. And I don't know if that's the right word. I completely believe that at this point in my life, but I know for some of us, it can be a little bit intimidating to move to this, so we're not asking you [01:05:00] to jump into a, Deep, heart to heart, face to face conversation with a bunch of other men right off the bat.

There are ways to wade into this, to ease yourself in and get more comfortable with this idea of deeply connecting with other men and other groups. You can start around a campfire, because Jason's right, we all love campfires, right? Uh, my fire pit, I have a fire pit. My backyard is one of my favorite things in the world.

So you can start around the campfire. Okay. You can start around some cigars are watching your kids play sports together. I, I talked to dads all the time when my daughters are playing basketball. So you can start in a number of ways. Add groups into your life of men, and then you can take that further as you progress, as you get more comfortable, but you need to find solid men to have in your life.

Now, Jason, [01:06:00] if this is really connecting with guys, right, what are the first three steps you'd recommend for guys to start implementing this in their life? Yeah. Um, you know, like I said, I would recommend call together some men, right? Think of Two, three other men in your life. You just have a sense like, I think I could go deeper with them or that they might be open to connecting in this different way and then just say, Hey, I want to get together and I want to get together and I want us to talk about our lives.

Right. Just, just that simple. And you give it a whirl, just 90 minutes, you know, on a Saturday night or something like that. So just connect with the men who are already present in your life. That could be step number one at a deeper level. Step number two is if you want to, you know, increase your capacity for that or learn some tools or have some experiences.

Like I said, it would be go out and try to form or to [01:07:00] find a already established group of some kind where you can drop in and participate. And probably experience some new ways of connecting, um, that you've never done before. And then, you know, step three would be, yeah, really go for the whole enchilada and like go on retreat or something sometime where, you know, I've seen the deepest bonding with men come when we're, uh, you know, men tend to bond when we do hard things.

And we do vulnerable things and, um, I have just seen, you know, the level of connectivity that certain men can form even in just a weekend, then creates the bedrock for the rest of their lives together in, in pretty powerful ways. It happened for me and it's now why I try to create those experiences for other men too.

And there's lots of them out there. The good news is, like you said, this stuff is starting to bubble up through the culture because there's a real need. So there's more and more attention and more and more work out there about, yeah, men, Do not have to suffer [01:08:00] alone, right? So reach out to some guys around you, find a group that already exists around you, or, you know, go on the big Epic quest and go on retreat somewhere.

What's next for Jason? Like, I'm going to keep doing what I do, man. Um, yeah, being a father, being a husband and, um, just supporting men to, to realize that, Hey, yeah. Like I just said, you don't have to suffer alone. And what I have found is the power of groups and community like this. It doesn't make life easier, but it does make it better.

Just makes it a lot better. The stresses of life keep coming at you, but what a good group can do is resource you against those stresses in a way that just isn't possible alone. Now we've got your website. And guys, that will be in the show notes. Jason, or do you do social media? Where's the best place for people just to connect to you?

Is it here at the website or somewhere else? [01:09:00] Yeah, I'd say here at the website, you can, um, you can check out my podcast. I do a little bit of Instagram, but you know, I don't have a huge social media presence. Um, podcasting is really what I love just having conversations like this and, you know, being able to go.

So that's probably the best way to. Check out the deeper vibes of some of what I'm up to as well. It's right here on my site. Now I know that everybody is really worried about what Bruno Mars's real name is. Yeah, I'm curious. And you guess D Bruno Martza or whatever it is that I can't pronounce. Bruno Mars's real name is actually a Peter Gene Hernandez.

Wow. Never would've guessed that your world is radically changed, right? It totally is. Actually, I know that you totally deeply cared about that. Like everybody else guys, my wife showed me this meme the other day on Instagram, and it was A picture of a bunch of men standing around a barbecue grill, all with a beer in their hand.[01:10:00]

And it actually had a caption that said only men can spend an hour and a half like this and not even know each other's first name. And I want to say that that's super funny because there's truth to it. Okay. Don't be that guy. That's what we're saying today. Don't be that guy. You need to connect with healthy men to be the best version of yourself and Jason has laid out that argument very well for us today.

Jason, as we land this plane, wrap us out. If someone heard nothing else today, what is the most important thing you want them to hear? Every man should be in a men's group. You will be creating the conditions for your life to thrive at an entirely next level. Guys for myself and Jason, thanks for hanging out with us today as always be better tomorrow because what you do today and we'll see you on the next one.

This has been the fallible man podcast, [01:11:00] your home for everything man, husband and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show. Head over to www. thefallibleman. com for more content and get your own fallible man gear. Transcribed