The Show Up Framework: Empowering Parents of Preteens

The Show Up Framework: Empowering Parents of Preteens

Brent Dowlen: [00:00:00] You know, the most feared age in the whole parenting process is preteens. Now, I've worked with teenagers for a long time, so I don't get it. I worked with junior high and high school students for most of my life, but it scares the bejesus out of most parents. Now, if you have a preteen or soon to have a preteen like I have, then this episode is absolutely for you.

Today on the Fallible Man Podcast, I have Marcus Higgs. Marcus works with parents, To help them understand how to raise their preteens and how to go through that part of their life. We had an incredible conversation. Marcus shares incredible insights on how to connect with your preteen, how to survive those frustrating moments with them, and so much more incredible advice for parents.

Guys, you don't want to miss this episode. Along with this episode, In the show notes, you'll find a link to download a checklist to go with today's show. So you can take [00:01:00] directly what you learned from today's show and actually start just applying it to your life with ease. It's free downloads. It's not going to cost you an email or anything.

And if you want to skip the get to know you section, because some people don't like the silly section of my show, it's the first part I got timestamps below. Feel free to jump forward, straight to the core part of the show. But guys, You've ever had preteens. If you're going to work with preteens, you're going to have kids.

This is the episode you want to, let's get into it. Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential growing to the men we dream of becoming while taking care of our responsibilities, working, living, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves. Well, that's the big question.

And in this podcast, we'll help you with those answers and more. My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. You're home for all things, man, husband, father, big shout out to Fallible Nation. That's our longtime listeners have been with us for a while and a warm welcome to our first time listeners.

Hey, there's a lot competing for your attention. So thank you from the bottom of our [00:02:00] heart for giving us the opportunity to check this out. If you enjoy the show, be sure. Let me know, reach out to me at the fallible man on most social medias. I'm particularly active on Instagram. Tell me what you thought about the show.

I'd love to hear your feedback. Also, if you really enjoy it. Do us a big favor, share it with somebody who would benefit from the show or leave us a review on Apple podcasts that helps us reach more people. My name is Brent. And today my special guest is presence coach for parents and a parent. I can't even say that president's coach for parents of preteens, Marcus Higgs, Marcus, welcome to the family man podcast.

Right in the name, the fallible, you tripped up right on the title. We'll just start right off with that one part. No, that's perfect. It is, it is a mouthful of,

can I say it? Presence coach for parents of preteens.

Brent Dowlen: There's too many Ps for my lips, right? No, Marcus, we, uh, we start pretty easy. How is your trivia skills?

Oh

man, let's go. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: I'm up for it. [00:03:00] Which of the following language languages has the longest alphabet? Is it a Greek B Russian C Arabic or D English?

Arabic

Brent Dowlen: Arabic. All right. Now guys, you know how this works. Don't cheat. Don't look it up. Just remember your answers. And for goodness sake, don't do this. If you're thriving, come back to it later.

And we'll deal with that later. Now, Marcus, I don't do huge introductions because honestly, at this point, people don't care about accolades. They really don't. What we're interested in is in your own words today, in this moment, who is Marcus Higgs?

Hey, um, I'm a messenger, sanctified to speak with a divine voice, and though it was not of my own choice, rather, God's will be done, because I am part of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a special person, used to proclaim the praise of him who called me out of darkness into the marvelous light.

You see, I am the light. Sorry, the reason, the reason that came to mind, [00:04:00] I wrote that poem when I was 16 years old. And that has stuck with me. And it's this piece that identity is at the core of everything. And, um, I'll share with you my backstory. I went hot. I'm, I'm, I'm in a break, but, um, when, when people ask me, who am I, even though my identity has shifted over the years, um, there's a core of me that always comes back to that piece, even though my beliefs have changed, even though the way I show up is more clear.

That piece sticks with me. So people, when they say, who are you? That's the first thing that comes to my mind. I am a messenger sanctified to speak with the divine voice and Nova's not on my own choice. Yeah. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Well, that's the amazing thing, right? There's not a wrong answer as long as it's your answer for that question.

I just, we, we live in a world where there's so many boxes and definitions of things and people identify as their jobs half the time. And it's [00:05:00] like, no, no. Who are you? I like to just lay that out there for people and let them decide.

Yeah. There you go. Uh, um, if, if I can right now, another Joseph Campbell quote comes to mind and it says, for me, it's, there's a rephrasing of it.

There's no greater privilege. than to be who you are. Um, and I followed up with two other quotes. There's one by this, this poet from Ireland. His name is John O'Donoghue. The duty of privilege is absolute integrity. Um, and, and I'm, I'm going to get back to that as being a parent. It's the duty of privilege is absolute integrity.

Like, cause other people are going to be, going to be dysregulated. You have to know who you are and what you stand for. And the final thing is, and when they hear it, let them know. It is a privilege to hear your story. [00:06:00] There you go.

Brent Dowlen: Boom. Wow. We're going deep right off the bat. I don't know if I've had enough coffee for that yet.

I'm going to take a sip myself. Come on. It could be in any movie. What would it be the prestige?

Yeah. Oh, heck. Yeah, man I you know, I don't watch movies again because I know how it's going to end and that's just how I am But the prestige it's just like a magic trick that you figure out and it's like, oh no, let me watch this again And every time you watch it again, it's like what's that next little what's that little clue that could have hinted me to it That I didn't know but I mean the relationship between the two with tesla with and like, you know The secrets but like it's not visible right into the last shot the prestige

Brent Dowlen: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: All right. I've watched that one a while it that and the illusionist came out at the same time. Yeah. And I, I loved both of them. So I'm a big movie nerd. Now, Marcus, [00:07:00] I see that you like to work out. I was looking cruising your Facebook.

Okay.

Brent Dowlen: Whiskey and deadlifts pro or con.

Whiskey and

Brent Dowlen: deadlift.

Uh, pro or con.

I'm just gonna take the question as it is. I'm going to say I don't know what you're asking, but I'm going to say con cause I don't, I don't want to be tipsy while working out. That's what I'm thinking.

Brent Dowlen: You want some context on that? Yeah, go for it. Um, so actually there is a guy that, uh, I I'm going to blink his name cause I want to call it.

He owns Kabuki strength and he is, I mean, unquestionably one of the strongest human beings out there. Uh, but he makes kabuki strength, makes a lot of gym equipment. They make some really, his background is, is an aircraft engineer.

All right.

Brent Dowlen: And so like he's, there's something called the, uh, the Duffalo bar.

It's like curved bar for [00:08:00] squatting and some other stuff like that. Uh, but one of the things he'll train people with is he drinks when he's dead lifting. Because he doesn't drink a bunch, but he'll have just a couple of shots based on his tolerances, because after about three shots, it actually arrests your inhibition.

So you stop pumping the brakes automatically because your body has that urge to save itself. And we'll actually cap you at about 70 to 80 percent of your capacity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brent Dowlen: That gets arrested at about two or three shots in, depending on your alcohol tolerances. And there are several other deadlifters that he's trained that will do that as well.

And it kind of became a thing in the community for a while. So you can actually a little more after a couple of shots.

Try everything once like, and like, and hearing you explain it, it makes sense. And, um, I say try every once I've, [00:09:00] I'm not done PEDs, but no judgment against it as we do, but, um, all right.

Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm open to it. I'm open to it. I'm going to say con at the moment, but I'm open to it. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: No, the question makes no sense to somebody who doesn't work out at all. Cause they're like, I'm sorry, what? How does that even work? But people, once you explain it, you're like,

Um, um, uh, my, my, uh, I was going to say my exercise. I mean, I, I, I like squat. Um, I'm, I'm showing him my legs on a deadlift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Yeah, we'll do it. I'll get back to you on that.

Brent Dowlen: What's your best playground insult? You work with preteens. So I'm, I have high hopes for this.

Uh,

Oh man, man. I've been so far removed [00:10:00] from. Insulting people. And I can come back to that. But, uh,

what came to mind was your mom is so fat. You got to drive just to get on her bad side. That's what came up.

Brent Dowlen: Okay. So you're, uh, Upper thirties and forties, right? Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. Cause it came

Brent Dowlen: with your mama, right? I'm 44. So I, like I, I can pay the age group based on the default answer. But

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Oh, you got me on that one. What purchase, sorry, go for it. No, go for it. What purchase of a hundred dollars or less have you made in the last year? That's had the most significant impact on your life?

Uh, this, this stand. It's a laptop stand. It gets it right eye level so you don't have that awkward level down.

Um, I spend a lot of time on my computer and um, [00:11:00] I'm, I'm, I'm, mind you, I'm not telling you these are the, the best answers. These are the answers that are coming. Right in the moment. Yeah, it's not the wrong answer, but it's not the best answer either. But Hey, it's the answer.

Brent Dowlen: I have a whole system of arms on my desk so I can move my monitor up when I'm standing, cause I I'm too cheap to buy the like power desk with the buttons.

So I have a work bench from home Depot that has an annual crank, but I've got arms so I can raise my camera up to the right level so I can put my screen up to the right level when I'm standing. And then when I'm sitting, I can bring it all back down. That ability to actually like, you know, not have to do this.

I worked at a computer for over a decade, man, looking down at a computer all day. Shoulders start to round forward and cricks your neck. Yeah. It's horrible. So I'm all about it. That makes perfect sense. Worst song ever.[00:12:00]

What came to mind is it's not right. When I thought about it, I said, it's not, but, um, Alicia keys falling because really she just says the same thing again and again and again. And again, I'm like, how far can she fall?

Brent Dowlen: That's like an empire state level fall.

I keep on falling, yeah, but it's a, it's a good song, but I just remember that song annoyed me as a teenager.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's no shade on her as an artist. The song was crap,

but

Brent Dowlen: no shade on her voice and her skill. Yeah. It's a song. We all get this. I I'll skip that if it comes up on my playlist because I can only take the following so long. So totally makes sense. Batman or Superman? Batman.

He's worked for it, man.

Like he, he's, he's, he's gadgets. [00:13:00] He's, he's, um, he's gritty. Like Batman is in the shadows. He's, he's the knight, he's, he's the hero everybody needs, but they don't deserve. Is that, is that right? I think I boffed the line. Something like that. He's, um, definitely Batman. Like Kal El. He's an, he's not even from this planet, but that's all right.

I mean, you know what? I'm not against Superman. I'm just pro Batman,

Brent Dowlen: per se. You know, it's funny cause I, uh, with men, I can, if they're dads, it doesn't matter who you are or where you're from. You can talk about being a dad and every guy has a stance on Batman versus Superman. It is a solid line in the sand.

I don't hate that. I don't hate Superman, but I am definitely right. My buddy, best friend. He's a, he's a Superman guy. He like, he's What's so special about Batman? He's smart.

He he's the greatest [00:14:00] detective. Like, like he's worked for it. That's what, that's what I'm thinking. Like Superman it's he's already overpowered to begin with.

And then, then you bring a rock from his planet. Whereas he gets weak. I'm like, but Batman, he's figured out a way to take out every member of the justice league because he's just that smart. And he has a backup plan. But

Brent Dowlen: you know, yeah, trust issues. Yeah. What is something that everybody should know about you before we get into the shit show today?

Um, They should, I don't shit on myself often, but they should know that, um, I'm you experiencing life from a different perspective, like empathy baked into life. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Guys, we've been getting to know Marcus just a little bit, seeing who, what, what he's about, what makes him tick in this part of the show, we're going to dive into parenting preteens and Marcus, I was actually recently doing [00:15:00] research on the internet for a different show.

And found out that the top three ages people are most uncomfortable with are the terrible twos, teenagers, and the number one, according to multiple websites, so take that for what it's worth, right? According to multiple websites, we're the tweens of the preteen years. Like that ranked number one above teenagers, even I can believe it, which I absolutely think is hilarious.

We talked about this before the show, both of you and I enjoyed the preteen years. Why do you think so many people are so uncomfortable with this age group?

Man, I'm uncomfortable living it and I'm comfortable observing it. Well, Gabber Mate wrote a book called Hold On To Your Child, right? And I'm going to speak generally about human development.

Yeah. I agree. Maternal energy pulls them in close. It says, I love you, you're worthy, you're secure, you're safe, and so on. Um, [00:16:00] this is where paternal energy, and this is a natural development of things, then pushes them away. And it says, I love you, you're supported, you're worthy. But in that pushing away, that's where you create tension.

Um, everything that grows must first break. And it's in that breaking away of the teen wants to have independence and the parent wants them to have independent. And I say want, because sometimes it's not in sync. It's the natural order of things. It is, it is the growing pain in that moment. And this is, this is a thing, the first one like that.

It's the first breaking of, um, the identity because the kid is just like, well, who am I? Um, this is, this is a. A larger idea that we didn't talk about, but there's three crossing of the thresholds in our life, if you will, or in the hero's [00:17:00] journey with Joseph Campbell. The first time we're a child and we say, I'm not a child.

Um, and then we say, well, who are we? And we're turning and looking to see who we are. That's the first threshold and crossover. And then you identify with a group. And then you say, well, who are we? I am not this group. I'm not like these other people and life says, who are you? And then that's when you eventually, you say, I am.

And we come back to that identity again. Um, that's why I say at the core of all these things, it's. Identity is the root of all of our behaviors and actions from there on. But, um, the reason pre teen years are so crucial, so, so feared, if you will. For me, it's not a fear. I love working with them, just as you do.

Um, it's because it's the first time their identity is breaking and they have to figure out, Who am I? Of which life can't give you that answer. You have to give that answer. And there's that expectation of you. Um, That's why I think it's, it's so stressful

Brent Dowlen: if you will. Now, let me, uh, [00:18:00] back step this just a hair.

Yeah. Let's give this some context for our audience. Tell us what you do, Marcus, because I probably, I skipped right over that into the meat of it. Sorry. Uh, you're all good. You actually do. That's why we're having this conversation.

So I'm a presence coach for parents of preteens. Um, whereas I don't work with the preteens themselves, I work with the parents to help them keep their, keep their stuff together, keep, keep them together, um, keep them integrated.

as they're, as they are showing up as, um, trustworthy present parents for their kid. For me, and in the framework, we'll get into the third section of the show, but life supports those who support life. And I know what my father was for me during those times, while he was pursuing his career, [00:19:00] while he was going through his divorce at that time.

Um, yeah, like. I, I, I know what he needed and he was the adult in the room. Um, looking back on it, no animosity, no anger, no hate towards my dad because he was doing the best he can. But I want to be that for parents. As also, I have experience as, um, working inside schools as an educator. I was a high school English teacher, grade 9, grade 12.

And, um, a small stint in fifth grade, and when we were doing our parent teacher meetings, I would say, you know, I get it. I understand your frustration. If I could have spent more time with you, meaning the parents, I could have helped you create the atmosphere at home. Um, that I feel, I feel the traditional education system is not helping kids to bring forth their greatness, but that's another story.

Um, But I decided when I came out the classroom, I want to work with [00:20:00] parents and I'm here to be present with you and to bring out the best in you, just as I did with kids. Like I can't tell you how to do it, but I'm here to create the context, context for you to show up. And that's why I created the show up framework.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah, you got to be nice. My, my English and grammar is horrible. So no, man,

like, uh, I'm, you know, If it makes sense to you, it makes sense to me, and we're communicating. I, I was not that teacher who would dock off points for that. Like, I'm here for your full expression. And, uh, that, that's what we're here for.

I, I gotta

Brent Dowlen: tease, my wife is, is My wife, if I, if I got to send something like importance, I have my wife proofread it like, I swear, we, we need to find her work as a proofreader because she just, she loses her mind. She'll read it like an article in a magazine or something or a paper and she goes ballistic that a grammar mistake [00:21:00] got in or spelling error got in to this professional publication.

So I have her proofread anything I send. So I, I tease people who are spelling and grammar inclined.

That that's not, you know, it's funny. Interestingly, I think I had undiagnosed dyslexia growing up because, um, I love words and I do say, uh, I, I, I, I vibrations. That's what I love. That's what I say. But, um, I'm not the person to knock you if you're missing this or missing that.

Like, uh,

Brent Dowlen: it's all very tongue in cheek. My nine year old corrected my spelling yesterday. I was, how was that to your ego? That's

a, that's a palatable man.

Brent Dowlen: What? I'm, I'm totally cool with it. Uh, we, we, we, my kids are actually working about two and a half grade levels above their actual, like our homeschool curriculum we [00:22:00] use there.

My, my nine year old is in fourth grade. She's actually doing like sixth and seventh grade work. Uh, but I, I told him a long time ago, like my, we started teaching in person before they ever started handwriting. My mom lives with us and started teaching cursive. Their handwriting is better than mine. They spell better than I do.

And I'm like, you know what? This is why we're homeschooling you right here.

David McCarter: There you

Brent Dowlen: go. But yeah, I was typing something really fast and she came into the office and looked over my shoulder. And I will go back and fix things after I type them because I'm used to having to So I don't do it while I'm doing it.

I go back and do it. Right. But I was typing and misspelled the word and it just, she's like, dad, you, you that's wrong. Thank you, baby. I was going to go back and fix that later, but that's fine. Let me stop and fix that. You know, she was being helpful. Just crack me up. I was like, Oh goodness. You are your mother's children.

This is going to be a really long couple of years. Sorry, total [00:23:00] segue. Now, Marcus, you work with parents. Let me ask you, because there's a lot of parents out there who haven't sought help with this. They're anxious. They either have preteens or they're getting close to that preteen age. I told you my youngest is almost in there.

My oldest is in there. , what would you say is one of the most common struggles you see with the parents you work with?

Sure. Um, I, I, I love how you frame that because I was thinking of the struggles the kids go through and how the parents can meet that. So I'll, I'll answer that first and then I'll speak to the parents.

Um, it's, it's ice ICE. So first their identity is breaking, so they're trying to figure out who they are. Meaning that the preteen and then C is, um, collaborative mistrust. They don't know who they can work with because think about it. Their whole life has been black and white growing up with you as the parent.

And your, your word has been gospel. And then they [00:24:00] start to understand there are other perspectives in this world, which they don't get what nuances yet. So there's a healthy dose of skepticism, which starts around great, uh, age 12. And they're just like, you're not right. But if you're not right, that means you're wrong.

And that's where the mistrust starts to form. They turn from their parents. And this is why we need to be surrounded by a community of trustworthy present parents or other adults, which we can co parent with. That's, that's just how human development happens. It's called allo parenting. But, um, they don't know who to trust with collaboration.

And the third thing is, um, emotional management. The thing about emotions, they do five things, but two of them are, um, They they help you. They motivate you. It's in the word towards what you want, and it gives a an understanding of what's happening on in this internal state. [00:25:00] And if you're you're able to manage it, you can tell what's happening inside another person.

But this is their first time doing it. There's the first rodeo to the show. So they're they don't know how to manage their emotions, right? So we all know that as parents, right? But, um, Where where is actual default is communicating this. Okay, it is beautiful. One is taking a personal. It's not personal. Um, your kid while they're breaking away from you.

It's it's not personal. It's not permanent. It's not permanent either. If we make it through this stage, if you stay present. On the other end of this, there's a beautiful relationship because there is trust there. We're living inside the attention economy. I think with AI, when it's coming, we're moving into the trust economy.

Like, what can I trust? What can I have confidence in? And If I know I can [00:26:00] trust you as a parent, as an adult in my life, as the adult in the room that, hey, you're here, you're present, but you'll deal with me as I'm going through my BS. Bad stuff. That's, um, so don't take it personal, know that it's not permanent, and know that, um, it's not pervasive, know that it's.

This is probably just one, one thing that's really causing your kid to do like that. It's not in all aspects of their life. There's still potential there. There's still beauty there. And when you focus on that, you can bring it forth. That's the etymology of parenting, uh, to bring forth. But at this parenting stage, you're transitioning from a manager of their schedule, of their juice box, of their lunch meals and whatever, more to a coach.

And what a coach says is, I know what your potential is, and I'm going to give you this environment to do it, but I need you to express it. And on top of that, I'll end right here, Brent, but um, as I'm coaching you and creating this context and [00:27:00] showing you your, like, believing, holding the belief for you, I'm, I'm an example of keeping my stuff together because that's, that's the key there.

Like a kid can look to you and be like, can I trust you? I trust you because I know you're living it. And. I love your name. I'll come back to it again. Fallible. When you, when you fail, do you repair and reconnect because we are made stronger in those broken places? Um, that, that's another key thing of my work.

It's, there, there's a Semingway quote. He says, all men are broken and some are made stronger in the broken places, but those who refuse to break are utterly destroyed. That's a paraphrase of it. We have to be broken in order for us to grow. That's, that's how all growth happens. So, um, I think I answered your question in there

Brent Dowlen: and I gave you a lot more.

I told you there's not, there's not a, [00:28:00] I don't want the quick answer. I want the answer. If we had one question and that's all we got in, but we got the answer that's going to help parents. In this thing that I would be totally satisfied with that. So, yeah,

I, I, I got you. No,

Brent Dowlen: this is an age where, and I'm seeing this with my daughters, right?

They're starting to want to do things a little more independently on their own. They're, they're trying to, it's like, no, I can do that now. I can like, no, I want to do this for my time. Right. Get that independent. They're starting to get that kind of push and shove. And, and that's a good thing. That's a normal part of life.

I'm okay with that. But. Any advice on maintaining the core rules and those healthy boundaries you've already set without increasing the drama as they're going into the stage?

Sure, sure. Um, only because you asked for advice will I give it because I don't give unsolicited [00:29:00] advice. Um, and the advice would be to, to seek, uh, Lisa Demore in her book, Untangled, as, as dealing specifically with girls.

Um, Hearing your question generally as you raise it, as you gave it, was um, first is expectations. People move towards our, people move towards our expectations of them. And when I say expectations, another way, a more, an easier way to say that is creating a family culture. In the show up framework, which we'll get to in the third part, the first thing is starting with a strong character identity.

There's an identity your daughter has, your daughters, that you want them to lean into. And we frame it in the sense of character strengths. However, there has to be also a collective identity. Collective identity is just culture. Seth Godin says, people like us do things like this. And, um, [00:30:00] When we know what the expected culture is around in this family, when you act outside of that, it's um, again, no shaming, no blaming or complaining, but it's just like, hey, you know what's expected.

Let's, let's bring it back. Right? Um, your question was how, how might we, when, when they start to test the boundaries, I'm saying it in my own way to make sure I was listening. When they start to test the boundaries, how do we meet that? Yeah. Is that

Brent Dowlen: right? Without exasperating, exacerbating the situation.

Yeah.

Um, another aspect that I deal with is communicating. Communication. That's my background. I did journalism and so on. One quick tactic to give you is, when they do something that is out of line with their character, I'll give you a quick one, and then I'll give you a, a, a more nuanced one. A quick one [00:31:00] is, just eye to eye, heart to heart.

Is this the person you want to be?

Kids will do well if they can do well. If, if they're not doing well, um, they either don't feel supported, or they don't feel they have the skills. So there's, there's no shame in that, right? Cause when I say, is this the type of person you want to be? That comes from a place of love because we also do collaborative problem solving.

Again, I'll get into that, but, um, you asked the person because I would do this with kids or with adults or with anybody, this is human development. It's just that I work with a specific age, but you ask them, is this the person you want to be? And understand I, outside of you hold a belief. That you can be so much more.

And I'm going to be, I'm going to be here to help you towards that. Second idea that I'm going to share with you is, um, speak to a principle, not the behavior. [00:32:00] And then you invite them into the conversation. Now, what do I mean by that? There's a reason you hold the belief you do believe, right? It's from some life experience, some maybe metaphor that you've seen, and I'll give you an example afterwards.

But, um, when they do something that is not in alignment with it. The best stories to teach to kids are when you were their age. So when you learn this principle, probably tell that story and you're telling it from, this is what I've learned. And then this is how you do it without being preachy. You invite them into the conversation to say, what do you take away from it?

And you know what I love about that? Oftentimes other people have perspectives that you didn't understand that you didn't think of like, Oh, I didn't think of it like that. Or they might take it a whole different way that you just weren't expecting. So now it colors your understanding of that principle differently.[00:33:00]

Here's a quick example, right? Um, speaking with a kid who they remember this thing and they're so mad and angry about it. And I'm like, no, I've moved on from that. And I told him the story. I said, look, there were these two monks who were walking and they came to a river. And, um, there was this woman. And one of the monks picked up the woman and helped her across the river.

And then you put her down. The older monk did this, right? The younger monk was angry, angry. He's just like, why'd you I'm buffing up the story, but thank you for sticking with me. They're walking, they're walking, walking for, um, for 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles. And the young monk turns to the older monk, he says, Why did you touch that woman?

Why did you pick her up? We weren't supposed to touch women. And the older monk says, I put her down a long time ago. But you're still carrying her. And I know it sounds like some wise sage stuff or whatever, but then I would then ask the kid, like, what does [00:34:00] this mean to you? And it's just the principle of, well, whatever principle they want to tell me, but then we can open up that conversation.

So those are, those are two ways when, when kids are testing boundaries that I want to, again, bring forth their greatness. I got to trust there's beauty in there. That's, that's what I'm thinking.

Brent Dowlen: I like it. Now, this is an interesting age and it's one of the reasons I actually like this age group is because they're starting to.

Deal with. Emotions and some more adult things, but they're dealing with them from a fresh perspective, right? Uh, we don't really understand our emotions when we're younger and the younger years, right? We're dealing with anger or happiness or frustrations for the first time. And we're, our parents go and I've had to do this.

Mike is like, when you're frustrated, hitting somebody is not the proper response ever. This is not a healthy way to [00:35:00] express that. Right. And. At that younger age, like this is just how it is because explaining it, they're, they're not at that level. Right. And we start to get into that, into the preteens, but we also get into those hormones coming in some moodiness, right.

That the early teenage years where they're like, Oh, dad, you know. How as parents can we, and I saw this question on your one sheet I had, I have to ask, how as parents do we differentiate between the moodiness and then experiencing these for the most times and underlying issues like anxiety and depression, especially it's becoming so prevalent with social media and pressures at school, following you home now, right?

That's, that's something as a parent, I worry about more and more. Yeah. is, you know, is, is there like my, my oldest daughter yesterday was just, she said she was just [00:36:00] tired, but she was uncharacteristically kind of mellowed out beyond a normal, I'm just having a slow day, right? How do we, as parents start to differentiate, this is just, Preteen hormones coming in experiencing new things getting new grapple head around it and we should actually have some concerns

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up.

I'm gonna share with you two things that come to mind the first being first So we assume that there's gonna be a natural turning away breaking away like they're trying to process their thoughts by themselves Yeah, there's The easy understanding is, are they pulling away socially from everybody, or are they just turning away from the family at that moment?

And what that means is, are they shutting down their friends at [00:37:00] schools, extracurricular activities, um, your, your, your community of faith? Um, like, if they're turning away from all of that, that would be, that would raise a flag of concern, I would say.

It's interesting how to keep a pulse on that with in the digital age of okay, what's happening online, what's happening through their phone and so on. But if you notice, there's a difference between, I'm isolating from the family just trying to think of some things and I really don't need your input at the moment.

as well as I'm isolating from everybody. So that's, that's one indicator to look out for. The second thing, um, a safeguard to keep in place. There's an exercise that I do where we do a letter writing activity. And at the end of the letter, [00:38:00] there's inbuilt psychological safety. That means, so at the bottom of the letter, it says, And if at ever any time you want to come to me and open up about something, bring this letter back to me and you'll have my undivided attention for however many minutes you want to write on there, five minutes, 10 minutes.

And what this does is it gives your daughter or gives your, your son, your child. The space to know that there's space for support. Just knowing that you have support goes a long way. Um, and what that support is, a place to listen. A place that I can be me. What psychological safety really at its core is, I'm able to be myself without being threatened.

Without, without fear of being threatened. Um, if you're and then you take this letter and you just put it in a sock drawer. If you don't want to read it [00:39:00] one to one, there are different ways you can present it to your daughter, but, um, put it in a place where she knows she can keep it. The beautiful thing about a letter why I love it is you can take it with you when you move house, or if she goes to college or whatever, but it's, um, it's like a coupon.

To say, you have this time to be supported by me, um, that I'm, I'm ready to be present. That's why I say a presence coach for parents of preteens. Um, so that, that, that somewhat answers it on both ends. I wouldn't say we're mitigating it on the front or avoiding it. We're, we're keeping an eye out for the flags, as well as we're keeping a safeguard on the back end that if she ever gets to that point, just be like, Hey, I'm Acknowledge it when you're speaking about things is another thing with communication.

Just say, um, I wonder how you feel you speak your speaker thoughts out loud. But again, empowering thoughts of you're tired. Just just stating what it is. I believe you're tired. You look tired. I believe you need that time [00:40:00] to go. And I understand it. Just know that if you need support, I'm here. I remember a principal told me that one time when I was working with him, he says, um, I think he thought I was drinking.

I wasn't, I was just tired. I, I, I woke up.

Yeah, I was, I w my eyes were red just from crying that morning. And, um, he said, Hey, if you need support, come by. And that, that resonated so deeply. I didn't go to him then, but, um, yeah, just when a person says, if you need support, just know that I'm here, that goes a long way.

Brent Dowlen: And I asked you something really polarizing, you know,

you want to talk to me?

No, man, I'm an open book, man. Let's go

Brent Dowlen: personally from your experience in coaching with parents with teeth printings. This is where a lot of parents are trying to decide about the whole cell phone and technology issue, which is something that's a much more modern issue for us to deal with. What are your [00:41:00] recommendations as far as like social media exposure?

Um, before I answer this, I'll say every, every family is a different context. So, that's, that's just the general blanket. Different kids, different context. There's no meaning without context. Um, I,

man, and, and the reason I think that is,

It's, it's, it's a fine balance of you want to protect your kids and you want the best for your kids. Of course, you also want to give them the space to explore and trusting them with their guardrails. Um, I think if, and everybody has different means and ability with technology, cause some parents might know how to do this or not, but let them know if there [00:42:00] is something where you can monitor, That say, look, do what you need to, but I can monitor what's going and coming over the network.

Right? Um, actually using it

to, to be honest, right after this interview, I'm going to go, I'm going to go come up with a, with a more solid answer for this. Um, I do practice stoicism, and there's what we call the inner citadel, and nothing can enter or exit without my choice. Um, enter or exit my mind, or my, my perception without my choice.

And stuff is gonna seep in, stuff is gonna, yeah. But, um, the understanding of it is, is my choice. I want to teach that to my kids, and it's just, um, when I say my kids, my, my, the kids that I work with, It's, um,

because, yeah, technology is a new thing. It's, it's, it's the new [00:43:00] beast that we're dealing with. Yet if, if I know I can trust here, this is oftentimes a reflection of that, of what's being experienced out here. If there's inner trust, if there's inner confidence. All of this stuff just falls away. And I know that's idealistic, but, um, that's, that's why I'm just so much about be who you are richly, because I believe in your character strengths at your core, that answers a whole lot of other things of beyond technology.

That answers drugs. That answers how I show up at the party. That's that answers I'm going to take risks, but I'm going to take healthy risk and you know, that, that answers a lot of other questions, but I'm going to come up with a better answer for technology for you,

Brent Dowlen: you know, what? It's a really hard question to be honest and fair.

It's. So, you know, I, I love that you're going to go and actually think about that more after this, because it is, it's a very complex issue because I see the studies on impacts on just adults alone. And I've seen some study preliminary studies on [00:44:00] teens, right? Because someone who's really secure and they are who they are, can, can filter out 99 percent of it.

Right. I can flip through social media. I don't look at. People's best lives. Cause that's all you see on social media. I look at people's best lives and go, wow, I suck. Right. It doesn't even cross my mind. I don't look at other people and go, Oh, I don't have any value. Cause I, it, it doesn't bother me. Um, but.

I've seen the rates on mental health, the impact on mental health, and I understand, right, you want to empower your kid and trust your kids. So it's a really hard question for parents these days.

I will say, and I do know, I do know the conversations around it. Um, I will say most definitely have that conversation with your kids.

Cause if it's not mentionable, it's not manageable. So [00:45:00] when I say I trust them, it's not willy nilly. I'm going to throw you out there to do what I mean, the age where we grew up. Yeah. We, we went out and we played in the street and whatnot, but there were conversations that happened before we went out, you know, um, so yeah, I'll come, I'll come with a better answer for you.

Thank you for that.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah. No, I love it. Like I said, it's totally fair. It is. It is one of those modern, cause I looked at it as a parent, right? I, it's not something pressure from school couldn't follow me home unless I brought those people with me. Right. You couldn't be bullied outside of school by people still at school unless you went and spent time with outside of school.

Now, like all that follows you, there's so much, there's a whole level of new things as parents that we're dealing with, with the current generations of younger kids,

the new

Brent Dowlen: We've never had to deal with before. We have no experience. So it's, it's an evolving conversation. And so, yeah, I knew it [00:46:00] was a loaded question.

I just,

I know you're all good. These are questions that we need to be having, um, because we have to answer them sometime. Um, one, one thing that came to mind that I'll have in conversations with. With um people I work with and again, it comes back to your name. Just just thank you for that fallible, man It's um understanding that my perspective is fractured It's not the full perspective and a narrative when we're talking about writing stories.

We call it the unreliable narrator And social media is just a bunch of fractured narratives and we don't have what's going on behind it That's why I said we're entering the trust economy now Like, and that's why I want to establish in parents and in kids, trust yourself. That's what Emerson said. Well, for all the Emerson trust yourself, every, every heart vibrates.

So that string.

Brent Dowlen: And guys, we've been just discussing the amazing world of parenting preteens. Cause guys, seriously, it's exciting. This is a [00:47:00] really poor age. I know it may just rattle your nerves a little bit. This is a really cool age. And this part of the show, we're going to. Go into mark as a show up framework to better equip you.

So you can have a little more confidence in dealing with your preteen. Maybe it's your first preteen, maybe it's, you're not, but we're going to give you some tools that will help you out going forward with working with your preteens. I'm going to step back and let you go through this. I'm not going to try and tee it up cause you've got this down and, uh, we'll get back in.

Hey, that's well, I'm going to show up. That's that's how it is. Every time I hear this, uh, this phrasal verb show up, this comes to mind. Um, everything starts with identity. That's what we learned from, uh, James Clare, Atomic Habits, and so on. It's, I do these things because of who I am. So, let's go through it.

S is, we start with a strong character identity. I, I'm a student of positive psychology. And in positive psychology, [00:48:00] uh, we have, A, I, I wasn't expecting that. Awesome, thank you. Thank you, Brent. So then we start with, um, the VIA, Virtues in Action. What virtues in action are. There are 24 character strengths found in all cultures, all religions, ancient, and then they're, they're brought up into modern day psychology, really what these are are aspects of humanity that create community that bring us together because in positive psychology we say other people matter.

So we start with. A strong identity through our characters, uh, our character strengths, uh, character strengths could be something as, um, leadership could be bravery, could be perseverance. My top five, and it's worth noting all of these strengths are with you. It's just some that are, some are expressed more than others.

My top five are fairness, gratitude, creativity, [00:49:00] hope, and. Wow. I forgot it, but that's all right. It's in there somewhere. But, um, these are your when I was in the class, I would have these conversations of making everything around their character strengths and understand these can be also vices. And that if it's too much expressed of something, like if a kid's acting up, um, Hey, I know humor is your strength and right now you're expressing that a lot I need you to dial it back so that you can meet my needs Of what we're doing here in class all together or maybe like if you have a defiant kid That's perseverance.

And right now that's me shaking the gate from a baby. Um, it's hate. I see. I love your determination. But right now, we'll get on to the next part of which is H. Collaboration. Hold space for collaboration. So S is start with a strong character identity. Two is hold space for [00:50:00] collaboration. And critical thinking and problem solving.

When kids are going through their identity breaking, this is the first time they're oftentimes thinking, what's wrong with me? Remember, our inner state is oftentimes reflective of our outer state. And they're thinking, what's wrong with the world? What's wrong with me? Um, what's going on? And they're actually, actually, literally losing their minds.

Dan Siegel, in his book, Brainstorm, talks about how this is the purging of the brain. We're starting to cut away pieces for us to specialize in what we're going to lean into. And, um When I say hold space for collaboration, remember from our ICE model, we said they don't know who to trust. As the primary caregiver inside their lives, parents and guardians and so on, what you're doing is, [00:51:00] instead of confronting the kid, saying, what's, why is this, blah blah blah, going back and forth to the power struggle, there's a model where We turn and say, look, there's a problem here.

You invite them to the conversation. First, you say, what are your thoughts on this? They might not think it's a problem, but there's a whole, again, framework. It's called collaborative problem solving. You could look it up. It's by Dr. Brett. Um, I believe Brett Ross and you say, let's look at this together.

This is why it's a concern. And then beyond that, um, what are the possible solutions that we're going to work on together? And you start thinking in tandem with your kid. So that you're teaching them how to critically think. You're teaching them also that they're supported in facing their problems. And we also teach them that you are not your problems.

You are the solution to them. [00:52:00] Um, And then there are many different ways to solve it, but that's at, start with a strong character strength, because we're going to answer your problems with your character strengths. Two is hold space for collaboration. Three is, Oh, open up communication. How to pass on your values without being preachy.

We touched on this a little bit earlier in the episode. When we're opening up communication, there's this beautiful book by Charles Duhigg called Super Communicators. It just came out. There's some principles. Again, I deal with human development. It's just for this particular age as they're going through their first identity breaking so we could set them up for lifelong stress progressiveness, growing with their stress, but when you open up the communication what you're doing is,

first let me frame it with, be mindful [00:53:00] of the voice with which you speak to children, for in time that becomes a voice with which they speak to themselves. You are speaking to their character and their strengths by giving them an understanding of them outside of themselves. You're saying, hey, this is what I'm noticing.

Where your attention goes, your energy flows. And it's not to say that it's all rosy and cheeky, because it's not. But you're speaking at how they can meet those stresses they have in their lives with their, with their character. Um, and when they're ready to open up. Here's the interesting thing about being a preteen.

When you're seeking independence. You don't know who to trust because your parents views aren't necessarily your views of maybe what you're seeing with your peers, what you're seeing with other adults inside your community, trustworthy adults in your community, what you're seeing online or so on, so you're not sure if you can trust them.

With a parent, we explore with curiosity [00:54:00] to invite them into the conversation when they're ready because your kid will. If you maintain that trust up into this age, they will open up when they're ready. And when they open up, that's when you, um, you, you lean in the skills that we have for this this time.

One last thing I'll say before we move on to the last point is, um, in opening up the communication. There's one suggestion that I've worked with on my clients. It's called you time. It's a regular set time, minimal set amount of time. Could be five minutes, could be 10 minutes, it could be daily, could be weekly, but it's something you have set that your kid knows.

It's just you and them. You could set it up as a walk around the block. You do once a week. It could be um, on the weekend, maybe Friday night you block off this, this [00:55:00] hour of let's just. Go over the week of what happened. And, and again, you're not leading the conversation here rather it's, it's child directed so that they know that they have some autonomy over the time.

Like they, they know I own this time and I can get your attention now because oftentimes kids feel as though they don't have their parents attention. Um, and they still want your attention. I want, I want you to understand that, but they don't want any judgment because they're already feeling judged even without any other pressures.

Easier said than done. I know. But in this you time, you're giving them space to connect with you on their terms. Um, and so then in the week or in the days, yeah, you'll have those communications. But when you can tell them, look, I can't deal with this right now. Can we speak about it at you time? They always know there's a regular place I can come back to you.

Um, and again, what we're doing is we're creating [00:56:00] regularity to help them be regulated. So, we have start with character strengths, um, hold space for collaboration, open up communication. The W is wonder and explore this world together. Um, I'm from the classroom. We have project based learning. Projects.

Happy people have projects. That's Sonja Libomirsky. Happy people have projects in that we're progressing. Pro gress, pro means forward, gress means walking. We're stepping forward. Your child,

we all have projects. Brent has this podcast, I have the work I'm doing. Our kids are our projects. Like, we all have projects of which we're trying to develop, expand, and move into. And again, we're bringing our character strengths to that. It's intentionally setting up something difficult for your child to do.

I say difficult, that's effortful. Things are going to be easy. Things are going to be [00:57:00] difficult based on the attitude you bring to it, but it's effortful. There's always going to be an exertion of a force, but it's something that they want to bring into the world. And it gives you something. It gives you a space for you to have conversation with your kid.

Hey, how's that going? Now, um, it could be ballet dancing. It could be the baseball little league team. It could be, um, their grades, if that's important to them and what they want to focus on. Angela Duckworth, who wrote the book Grit, she says, hey, she has with her family, something that we're going to do long term, six months.

You can't give up. We're going to have regular conversations about it when we used to do project based learning. That's what it is. Hey, what's your goal that you intend and what we're going to break it down to say how you're moving towards it. What little steps are you taking? And this is where You're wondering and exploring a contribution to the world you and your kid together.

All right, [00:58:00] so we have S H O W. Start with character strengths. Hold space for collaboration. Open up communication. W is wonder and explore this world together. The final, I put them together, it's U P. Unveil potential together. The crux, the heart of this framework. is you being a trustworthy, um, present parent.

This is, this is hard to understand, but

you have to let go of the reins of your child and trust them to become, to blossom into the character they're going to be. And that's easily, more easily done when you know you're living in integrity with yourself and you and your child are unveiling your potential together. You're both flourishing. Um, In human development, they first start off dependent on us as caregivers, [00:59:00] as parents, as guardians.

They then move into their independence, but that's not the final form. The final, like Pokemon, the final form is interdependence. My needs are met as I serve you. I will take care of, there's a Jim Rohn line. He said, I will take care of me to be in service to you. If you promise to take care of you. To be in service to me.

Um, that is the show up framework. Honestly, this is what it means to be human for me. This is human development. And if we get this at that first breaking of adolescence, adolescence goes from 10 years old to early 20s, 22, they say, but if we get this right at the beginning and we start to set this, this up right at the beginning, we can start to frame this time of adolescence, which is major, massive potential, um, [01:00:00] to set them on a different trajectory of life.

That's why I decided to work with this particular group. And that's why I decided to work with parents. I had to do it out of the classroom, but, um, that is the framework, Brent. Thank you for giving me this platform to share it. Like. Yes, I really do love what I was doing. I, what I do. And, um, thank you for, for giving this opportunity to share.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah, guys, I want you to pause right here, right now in the show. If you're listening, whether you're on the audio platforms, listening to us, or if you're on YouTube, it doesn't matter wherever you're at. I want you to pause the show right now. And I want you to share this episode with the parent of a preteen.

If you have somebody in your life who is about to have preteens, or is living with preteens. Share this episode right now. Just, just help them. It's it's show up framework. Isn't going to give you all the answers. It gives you a foundation to work off of, but as parents, [01:01:00] you called it, uh, what'd you call it?

Uh, trust the word, the present parent. Oh, right. Yeah. Communities. So if you have. A community member who is a pre team parent, share this episode with them, help them out. All right. And then keep listening to the rest of the show. Cause we got more to come. I didn't want to interrupt on when you were going through it.

Cause it's like, ah, we could spend the entire episode just unpacking that, but I didn't want to do that because I want to get people to that foundation. And we're going to move into for our pre team parents listening right now. What are the first three steps that they can take? To start to build that best relationship with their preteen.

Yeah.

Um, first, first thought is I shared this with you before Brent, but, [01:02:00] um, yeah, there's no greater privilege than to be who you are. So communicating to your kid. Hey, um, I'm, I, I, I, I'm here for you, and I accept you, um, and when I say I accept you, and again, this is a nuanced conversation, but, um, I'm here for you to be your best self, and, and me saying that, you are not the bane Or you are not the source of my stress.

That's why I work with parents to keep their stuff together. Um, because there's a resonance when you are, when you are firm or, or you know who you are and you know who you are and your character that resonates to your kid. So to answer your question first communicate to your kid [01:03:00] I accept you as you are and you're not the source of my stress easier said than done because sometimes they really are I Mean, let's let's admit it.

Let's admit it. But someone someone told me said in this world when you experience stuff, it's not the stuff It's your response to it. And again stoicism is Is at the foundation of a lot of the stuff of what I my name is literally Marcus Aurelius and I do read meditations in the morning and but stoicism is to be lived or philosophy is to be lived not to be talked about.

The second, I would say is,

man, put, put your oxygen mask on first, regulate yourself, and, and that's why I do the work. I know I keep coming back to this, and thank you for this question because now it's boiling down to what I really believe. Um,

Your kid is going through [01:04:00] dysregulation naturally. This is, this is what they're doing. You are the adult in the room and that is a responsibility to have. And there is support for you out there. If not me, other people in your communities, right? So, keep yourself together. Get your rest. Put your oxygen mask on first.

Um, Because even if you live in your integrity, like you in your, in your virtues and your values, I can't, nobody else can put that on you. Um, your kid might go waywardly, but you know, you did your best. And I'm thinking of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus, if you know that story, but it's, that's, that's just, you have to be an integrity with you.

That is the crux of this whole message. Third thing is, enjoy it. Like, like, I, I, it gets really heavy in those first two, but the last two are, um, stay present. And right now I have an aging [01:05:00] father. One line that I, I say with him often is, do you know why we stay present? It's 'cause we won't get this moment again.

And he stayed present when I needed him and I'm here present and he needs me. And, uh, that's what I'll say.

Brent Dowlen: I love it. What's next for Marcus Hicks?

Um, change the world. You you, you changed the world by changing yourself. , we all have goals. Hey, I, you know, uh, um, AMI said, give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I'll move the world.

That's science. fulcrum in a lever. I work with vibrations and words. Give me a message that resonates with humanity and the world will move itself. If I could tell people there's no greater privilege than to be who you are. And when they hear your story, let them know it is a privilege to hear it. Like be awesome where you are on the other side of this, those who are hearing my voice, like be awesome where you are.

Like let's take care of this [01:06:00] world. What's what's next for me, probably the next podcast saying the same message and, uh, one, one bit at a time.

Brent Dowlen: Where is the best place for people to connect with you?

Uh, Marcus Higgs. com. You can go there. Um, it'll give a brief understanding of who I am and, and, and what I do.

And then that's my forehead. And then as, as you walk through it, you can, um, book a call with me and, uh, Again, that's that's not a discovery call. That's that's a consultation call. 15 minutes. Let me understand your context. Again, I don't give unsolicited advice, but I'll give you insight as I've done this many times.

And I'm passionate about supporting those who are supporting life, which are parents.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah, no, you have to come to my show for unsolicited advice. That's that's

give you the advice you didn't ask for. Yeah, [01:07:00] Marcus will make you ask for it. I'm just going to Marcus. I know you've been stressed about this the entire show. What language has the longest alphabet and you guessed Arabic. And

can I change my answer?

Brent Dowlen: Good. Russian. I didn't

look it up. I didn't look it up.

Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: You are correct. It is Russian. Russian. I see the longest alphabet.

Everybody loses sleep over those questions. The one time I forgot to actually like give the answer at the end, I actually had someone call me out on it. I was like, really? Yeah. Yeah. You even care about the end of that show, uh, Marcus, if our audience heard nothing else today, what do you want to leave them with us?

We wind out. The word is love. Spread the word. All right. For Marcus and myself. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Be better tomorrow because what you do today, we'll see you on the next one.

David McCarter: [01:08:00] This has been the fellow man podcast, your home for everything man, husband, and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show.

Head over to www. TheFallibleMan. com for more content and get your own Fallible Man gear.